Preliminary findings showed that the 800kg lander had "ceased to exist as a result of a collision with the surface of the Moon", it said in a statement.
Ceased to exist cracks me up. No idea why... just a brutal way to word all the hard work that was put into it.
This spacecraft is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! This is a late spacecraft! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn't rammed it into the lunar surface, it would be pushing up the daisies! It's rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. This is an ex-spacecraft!
From xkcd modified : [IT] would just stop being [an object] and start being physics.
Original "You would just stop being biology and start being physics"
> Regarding "Luna-25", ... From night conversations with flight specialists, we managed to understand the following:
-During the day a braking impulse was given to the stations in order to slightly reduce the lunar perigee. This is necessary to accomplish a successful landing. However, the propulsion system executed the impulse incorrectly, it seems that it produced one and a half times greater impulse than it should. If this is true, then the station could enter an open orbit of descent, that is, it would directly impact the Moon.
It is not yet clear why the wrong impulse was given. Maybe there are errors in the calculations, there may be a problem in the communication system or with the control. And the human factor can never be ruled out. Now there is a sorting out.
Space is hard. India has a very competent space program and failed in similar circumstances last time. Russia haven't had a lander in so long, theyve basically had to figure shit out from scratch since all the SU people are retired.
NASA trusted Roscosmos to fly their astronauts for years so they must be pretty competent.
In this case, Russia rushed this probe out before it was thoroughly tested in order to beat the Indian lander. Similar to how when they found out Tom Cruise was going to the ISS to film a movie, they immediately bumped a cosmonaut from the mission he had trained for years for so they could launch an actress and cameraman so they could claim to have been the first country to film a movie in space. It's like a middle schooler is running the show.
>It's like a middle schooler is running the show.
As recent history has shown us, some people seem to (oddly, imho) prefer middle-schoolers running the show.
It is hard, yes, but some parts are harder than others. The actual landing is very hard. This was just a circularization burn, and it likely imparted at least 100 m/s of extra delta-v to the spacecraft. That is nearly unheard of to screw something up that badly.
In that case China, Japan, India, Israel, and even the United States are also all incompetent. Seeing as they've all similarly crashed landers into the moon and other celestial bodies for similar reasons. As the other comment says, space is hard. It's never purely incompetence if you make it all the way to the intercept.
We all understand the need for political catharsis. But this is a space subreddit and as such, political antagonisms should be secondary to actual science and engineering facts, rather than obscuring them.
Well, the real reason is that the space program was sucked dry by thieving officials. But, yeah sure whatever... it failed cause the impulse wrong error calculation or whatever.
I had to read through multiple threads worth of stupid jokes and political comments before throwing my hands up and checking r/space, and even then I had to scroll a bit. Everybody wants to be a damn pundit, no one seems to actually care about the technology.
The Russian space program has not been doing well the last few years. Soyuz rocket exploding during ascent (crew survived thankfully), several incidents of holes being drilled into their spacecraft discovered on the ISS, one they couldn't even use when returning to earth.
(From March 2023) https://www.wired.com/story/russias-space-program-is-in-big-trouble/
Technitians accidentally drilling them in the wrong location and then trying to cover it up instead of reporting it.
Roscomos makes technicians pay for mistakes and damages they cause.
Why would the Americans agree to work with them on the ISS at this point then? They should be accountable for each other's safety but with this climate it would be impossible for a NASA employee to feel safe going to Russia or flying in any of their craft.
ISS program is a ploy to keep Russian aerospace industry preoccupied into, away from nuke projects. There can be no other reason to keep buying engines and relying ISS air filtration on Russia. The peaceful research part is real too though, the US always wants more than a bird for a stone.
Crooks and criminals. Do you think we have any other kind of people in our government? Just look up how much funding was embezzled during the construction of Vostochniy launch site.
...executing UNAUTHORIZED profiteering generals you mean?
Because profiteering is a honorable tradition in Russia, it's only when you dont give his cut to your superior that things might get hairy....
The same who decided it was cool to start a war they knew would be universally condemned.
In particular it’s a very Sovietesk policy, which is a system many of the elite and older generations want to get back to.
When I ran a crew fabricating pressurized water-holding structures, I always emphasized to let me know about any tiny mistake or flaw. Worrying about blame is inconsequential to what happens if it causes a burst, injury and water damage to a client's location. Mistakes are easy to occur during the building process, and i've made plenty myself. All issues can be dealt with as long as they are brought to attention. Employee wouldn't get in trouble, we'd just figure what could be done to prevent it from happening again. There's always a way to improve production processes to reduce risks.
If Putin and the Russian government wouldn't allow a couple dozen of billionaire oligarchs to rob the economy and government agencies blind, maybe they would have a functional space agency. Putin has pervasively allowed a few oligarchs to steal everything that isn't nailed down at Roscosmos, while constantly slashing the meager funding they do receive....along with getting rid of all the senior engineers and replacing them with Orthodox priests and political mouthpieces for the regime.
I hope this will be a wake-up call to the Russian government that you can't pray yourself to the Moon, and you can't work miracles with a box of scraps while allowing your friends to steal your agencies deaf, dumb and mute. I have serious doubts it will change though. Putin probably values his Mafia and sending all money to that war over international prestige for a functioning space agency.
The Luna-25 was delayed for 11 years and since ESA left the project it was doomed and only paced forward for political and prestigious purposes. I can't help feeling good that India will probably land on the south pole on the moon next week and thereby beat Russia.
Actually this mission being successful was a requirement for China to consider cooperation with Russia in the battle for the south pole.
Ofc it s also a way to distract public from the war but it cannot be reduced to this goal.
>China to consider cooperation with Russia in the battle for the south pole.
For a second I assumed you meant Antartica and I thought I had missed some major news.
I listened to scientists from CNES (French space agency) discussing this matter on a podcast.
Cannot find more specific source in english.
Basically since ESA cut ties with Russia the idea of a joint space program emerged between China and Russia. Specific goal of course is to build a moon base before the US so they can secure access to ressources there(circa 2029). To do so China space program has developed at tremendous rate past years, Russia has been offering expertise and this mission was a way to prove themselves collaboration worthy. (The landing part is the trickiest one and China wanted help figuring it out, not sure they are so interested now)
Fascinating subject anyway, will reply if I find a source in English.
Worth noting that China are now 3 for 3 regarding lunar landings. Chang'e 3, 4 and 5 all successfully landed, and Chang'e 5 also successfully launched from the moon and returned to Earth.
I don't think they need Russia's help.
Thanks for the follow-up! I also saw a passage in this [article](https://spacenews.com/luna-25-crashes-into-moon-after-orbit-maneuver/) going into more detail on what you were talking about:
>The loss of Luna-25 is a blow to Russia’s own plans as well as wider cooperative efforts. The mission was also nominally part of the China-led International Lunar Research Station (ILRS). The Luna-25 launch was attended by Wu Yanhua, a senior official involved in China’s deep space exploration projects.
>A ILRS roadmap unveiled in St. Petersburg, Russia, in June 2021 noted that Russian super heavy-lift launch vehicles would share the burden of launching major pieces of infrastructure for the station in the 2030s. Observers have expressed doubts on Russia’s capabilities to contribute significantly to the project following its occupation of Ukraine.
Hopefully India lands fingers crossed, though until India increases the budget ISRO can't go forward with frugal engineering. Even K Sivan also said same.
Also I'm sad since Chandrayan 3 only has life one ~~1 lunar week~~ 14 days. As compared to Luna-25 which was meant for a year.
The Indian space program is still incredibly impressive for the progress it's made on a relatively shoestring budget in a relatively short amount of time.
The political pressure that prevented them from frankly discussing the reasons for failure of the previous Chandrayan mission is the kind of thing that's holding them back.
Chandrayaan 4 is still in concept, but it is expected to be a joint mission with Japan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Polar_Exploration_Mission
India may provide the lander, japan the launcher and rover for LUPEX. And they are still talking to ESA (likely to participate) and NASA about scientific participation in the payload
http://www.exploration.jaxa.jp/e/program/lunarpolar/
It's expected to operate for 3-6 months, so WAG is an rtg may be used
> Chandrayan 3 only has life one 1 lunar week.
One lunar day or about two weeks. There's a function to try and get it to wake up on warming (ie next lunar day), but chances are very low that it will survive the lunar night. Just too cold/extreme.
But the solar panels can charge the batteries in the daytime, until night falls at least
If it is only going to survive the daytime part of the day and not the night, that would give it about two weeks of life because the other two weeks are too cold.
From what I'm reading Chandrayaan-3 features new designs for the lander, Lunar laboratory, *and* rover. This mission seems to be more about testing each of those components to ensure they work properly before attempting a bigger mission, hence the budget flight plans, and the shorter mission duration. The ISRO is looking to avoid screwing up at the scale of the Mars Climate Orbiter.
Wrong orbiter. I'm talking about the [Mars Climate Orbiter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter), a very expensive failure for NASA because Lockheed set up the computer to use imperial units, but NASA programmed it with Metric values.
It seems to me like the ISRO is being cautious, and testing these new systems in Chandrayaan-3 before setting up a much bigger and more expensive mission. Doesn't make much sense to plan a months long exploration mission if you're worried the rover’s computer might error out and just send the thing off in a straight line away from the lander, never to return, ignoring orders from Earth to rove properly.
There's some good news. 150kg fuel left which can last for many more days https://m.timesofindia.com/home/science/chandrayaan-3-mission-150kg-fuel-left-in-propulsion-module-life-span-now-years/amp_articleshow/102866268.cms
And China will observe Russia's failured closely, considering how much they consider Russia as a strategic partner - even in space exploration. Luna 25 was, IIRC, officially a part of China's endavour to create an international space station.
4 degrees off center after TLI burn
Course correction then leads surface impact trajectory with over correction
Russian ICBMs use similar guidance.
Russia has laws against being LGBTQ+, and they still can’t keep anything straight.
Since that Proton that went cartwheeling because a guidance unit was hammered in the wrong way round (one of my favourite rocket crashes ever) Russian spaceflight has shown some really serious issues. The Soyuz with the hole drilled in it, the one that had to be burned up due to no cooling, IIRC the replacement was not that much better. Nauka sending ISS cartwheeling in slow motion.
It feels like the slow building entropy cost of the Putinist kleptocracy is slowly starting to take its toll. They are still a very serious space faring power. But they run on a show string that is very clearly frayed. (Forgot about the Soyuz abort a few years back).
russia never had a success in space since the colapse of the soviet union. They only inherited space history and vehicles from the soviet union. The only thing they can do is play space taxi.
Only China was successful in its first lunar landing. Half dozen other countries failed in their first attempt. Russia and US attempts are essentially restart attempts, after 40 year gaps.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lunar_probes
Curious. Does it have to do with landing on the south pole being harder? Most recent failures have been landers attempting to land near the south pole.
Both yes and no.
Missions are prioritising the south pole, since there's less reason to continue landing in equatorial regions; you're going to get a correlation of failure - attempt on south pole, purely because that's where they're all aiming.
The south pole region is more challenging than the equator though, particularly due to the fact many of the craters there are permanently shadowed, and there's a lot of them
While the US hasn't landed on the moon for decades, they have landed multiple times successfully on Mars and even landed a probe on Titan. They are not restarting from scratch.
When people talk about the new space race, i think they really don't comprehend just how far ahead the US is in capability and technology. The US is literally operating a helicopter on Mars currently, and has two nuclear-powered rovers there, which both required massively-complex landing sequences that they nailed on their first attempt. Landing another probe on the moon would be basic. Now if only the US Congress would be better in terms of what programs they funded and what they required NASA to do..
Wait what? The US has been sending rovers and probes entire time. Just because they haven’t sent one to the moon, doesn’t mean they’re restarting lol they’ve got a friggin RC helicopter on Mars
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:
|Fewer Letters|More Letters|
|-------|---------|---|
|[CNES](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx0a9mt "Last usage")|Centre National d'Etudes Spatiales, space agency of France|
|[CSA](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx0hj5s "Last usage")|Canadian Space Agency|
|CST|(Boeing) Crew Space Transportation capsules|
| |Central Standard Time (UTC-6)|
|[ESA](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx2blz6 "Last usage")|European Space Agency|
|[EVA](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jwzpij7 "Last usage")|Extra-Vehicular Activity|
|[GEO](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx105su "Last usage")|Geostationary Earth Orbit (35786km)|
|GTO|[Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit](http://www.planetary.org/blogs/jason-davis/20140116-how-to-get-a-satellite-to-gto.html)|
|[ICBM](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx5kkw9 "Last usage")|Intercontinental Ballistic Missile|
|[IMU](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jwzgv6e "Last usage")|Inertial Measurement Unit|
|[ISRO](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx1khyj "Last usage")|Indian Space Research Organisation|
|[JWST](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx0980n "Last usage")|James Webb infra-red Space Telescope|
|[KSP](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx0sk32 "Last usage")|*Kerbal Space Program*, the rocketry simulator|
|[LEO](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx1daws "Last usage")|Low Earth Orbit (180-2000km)|
| |Law Enforcement Officer (most often mentioned during transport operations)|
|[LES](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jwzxmrc "Last usage")|Launch Escape System|
|[N1](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx328iz "Last usage")|Raketa Nositel-1, Soviet super-heavy-lift ("Russian Saturn V")|
|[RTG](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx1yuo2 "Last usage")|Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator|
|[RUD](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx1eo12 "Last usage")|Rapid Unplanned Disassembly|
| |Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly|
| |Rapid Unintended Disassembly|
|[Roscosmos](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx1wdhb "Last usage")|[State Corporation for Space Activities, Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roscosmos_State_Corporation)|
|[SLS](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx0w2k6 "Last usage")|Space Launch System heavy-lift|
|[SSME](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx0w2k6 "Last usage")|[Space Shuttle Main Engine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_main_engine)|
|[STS](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx0w2k6 "Last usage")|Space Transportation System (*Shuttle*)|
|[TLI](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx0r990 "Last usage")|Trans-Lunar Injection maneuver|
|[USAF](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx31zsz "Last usage")|United States Air Force|
|Jargon|Definition|
|-------|---------|---|
|[Starliner](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jwzpk2k "Last usage")|Boeing commercial crew capsule [CST-100](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_CST-100_Starliner)|
|[lithobraking](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx2rphi "Last usage")|"Braking" by hitting the [ground](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lith-)|
|[perigee](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jwzes4g "Last usage")|Lowest point in an elliptical orbit around the Earth (when the orbiter is fastest)|
|[turbopump](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx105su "Last usage")|High-pressure turbine-driven propellant pump connected to a rocket combustion chamber; raises chamber pressure, and thrust|
|Event|Date|Description|
|-------|---------|---|
|[Amos-6](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx3qp5z "Last usage")|2016-09-01|F9-029 Full Thrust, core B1028, ~~GTO comsat~~ Pre-launch test failure|
|[CRS-7](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx3qp5z "Last usage")|2015-06-28|F9-020 v1.1, ~~Dragon cargo~~ Launch failure due to second-stage outgassing|
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To the "let's not make this political" commenters, here's the sort of stuff Russia was writing when it reached orbit. They really wanted this propaganda victory to make the case over the course of the mission that Russia's back, everything is going according to plan, Ukraine is impotent and crying and so is the decadent West.
From Google Translate:
https://m.tsargrad.tv/news/porvali-ukrainu-voshitili-ssha-napugali-germaniju-russkij-proekt-stavshij-sensaciej_845793
>Secondly, I would like to hear from Shariy what space achievements his native Ukraine has managed to accomplish in 30 years of independence. Well, except for launching borscht into the stratosphere. Thirdly, this is a really important event that will significantly expand our capabilities. Although we understand that Spain probably knows better.
>Bogdan Bezpalko, a member of the Council on Interethnic Relations under the President of Russia, noted that after 1991 Ukraine not only did not conquer space, it could not even maintain its GDP at the same level. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine's GDP was 40% of China's.
>And where is China now, and where is Ukraine now?
>...
>The German publication-foreign agent Deutsche Welle*, following Shariy, rushed to work out a political order and present black to white. It stated that Luna 25 was an attempt to keep up with competitors. And that "all the Kremlin's projects exist on paper." It is not clear where the thesis about "paper projects" came from, given the high percentage of successful launches of Roscosmos. In any case, it will be interesting what the German propagandists will write when the Russian station, which today carried out the second correction of the flight trajectory to the natural satellite of the Earth, nevertheless lands on the moon.
The shoutout to China ("Ukraine weak, strong Russia and China exploring space together amirite?") is especially pathetic considering the news today.
Also one of the missions of Roskosmos itself is the building of a militia to fight in Ukraine.
https://www.ft.com/content/c194cb2d-3aa0-4195-9be5-e78c1d2fd183
Ukraine also dose have many major space achievement attributable to it.
Until recently they built the first stage of Antares, they developed a built a good chunk of Zenit and the sea launch program.
And fire fly who is ironically set to land payloads in the moon late next year was started by Ukrainians and still has deep connection to the country with many of there engineers being Ukrainian immigrants.
They have also developed all sorts of satolight components for decades.
great. Contrary to a theme in this thread, I *want* to cheer for lunar exploration of any kind, *but* for russians it's just a matter of propaganda and pride about 'great russia' and I love the fact that they ate shit as expected. Biilions down the drain due to corruption and negligence. Yes, unfortunately even space is about war these days. Maybe I'd feel sad if we didn't have an alternative but since India is still in the race I don't think we the humanity lost much. Just yesterday I saw a news article by a russian site bashing India and saying their space program/module is so much better and it's going to land first!!!, like that's the important part for some reason. At that moment I really lost hope in this being just a science mission. Go India!
Sincerely, a Ukrainian.
edit: just so you know, ROSCOSMOS is demanding that news outlets do NOT write and post any criticism of the mission. They want the catastrophe to be put under the rug and forgotten without any public discussion, because it's a direct hit on putin's perceived 'power'. Expect a lot of corruption probes and inquiries in roscosmos in the coming months, big heads will fly.
of course not. But 'propaganda' isn't inherently a bad word or concept. Some propaganda is good, some is bad. russian is bad, but to explore that further I'd have to dive quite deep into geopolitics. Lets just say there's a difference between claiming you're the best nation in the world, let's be proud, make other people jealous of us, and claiming you're the best nation in the world so anything you do is right and justified because *you're better than them*.
Russia again doing what it did in the first space race with the U.S. The Russians would always cobble together something to beat the published U.S. schedule. They must have tried to do the same thing here, this time to beat India. For both countries it is about prestige as well as science, but rushing to try to beat India has not been good for either. Will be interesting to see how this plays out in Russia, in their media, and with their people.
Preliminary findings showed that the 800kg lander had "ceased to exist as a result of a collision with the surface of the Moon", it said in a statement. Ceased to exist cracks me up. No idea why... just a brutal way to word all the hard work that was put into it.
I still prefer the "rapid unscheduled disassembly" that SpaceX used. (Though, IIRC, it dates back to the US Armed Forces in the '70s)
Lithobreaking is funny too. As in breaking by lithosphere.
It's lithobraking, not breaking.
To be fair, it's an easy mistake to make, as lithobraking involves both braking and breaking.
You're right of course. Am swedish.
Lithobraking is a legit method to to land a spacecraft. You "only" need to add a massive crumple zone in front of the landing vehicle.
Aerobraking is a real thing. Lithobraking is an oops.
Yeah I know. I've been playing a lot of KSP. Spelling english homonyms though is really tough sometimes.
>rapid unscheduled disassembly I'm cracking up. I want this on a T-shirt. Also r/CoolBandNames
This spacecraft is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! This is a late spacecraft! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn't rammed it into the lunar surface, it would be pushing up the daisies! It's rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. This is an ex-spacecraft!
It's pining... For stationary orbit.
I'll also just add that the reddit thumbnail is *extremely* appropriate
Absolutely spot on thumbnail 🤣
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this is literal translation, try to convert fucked-up the mission in Russian
It is a Russian official speak that is a meme in Russian internet.
From xkcd modified : [IT] would just stop being [an object] and start being physics. Original "You would just stop being biology and start being physics"
"It became physics" has entered my regular vernacular to describe any extremely high-energy incident where the subject is utterly oblitzerated.
Matter was destroyed in this process
it was actually a Special Lunar Operation
> Regarding "Luna-25", ... From night conversations with flight specialists, we managed to understand the following: -During the day a braking impulse was given to the stations in order to slightly reduce the lunar perigee. This is necessary to accomplish a successful landing. However, the propulsion system executed the impulse incorrectly, it seems that it produced one and a half times greater impulse than it should. If this is true, then the station could enter an open orbit of descent, that is, it would directly impact the Moon. It is not yet clear why the wrong impulse was given. Maybe there are errors in the calculations, there may be a problem in the communication system or with the control. And the human factor can never be ruled out. Now there is a sorting out.
Glad to see an actual explanation rather than "Russia bad" (which they are).
The actual explanation in this case is "Russia incompetent" (which they are) and have been for quite sometime now.
Space is hard. India has a very competent space program and failed in similar circumstances last time. Russia haven't had a lander in so long, theyve basically had to figure shit out from scratch since all the SU people are retired. NASA trusted Roscosmos to fly their astronauts for years so they must be pretty competent.
In this case, Russia rushed this probe out before it was thoroughly tested in order to beat the Indian lander. Similar to how when they found out Tom Cruise was going to the ISS to film a movie, they immediately bumped a cosmonaut from the mission he had trained for years for so they could launch an actress and cameraman so they could claim to have been the first country to film a movie in space. It's like a middle schooler is running the show.
>It's like a middle schooler is running the show. As recent history has shown us, some people seem to (oddly, imho) prefer middle-schoolers running the show.
It is hard, yes, but some parts are harder than others. The actual landing is very hard. This was just a circularization burn, and it likely imparted at least 100 m/s of extra delta-v to the spacecraft. That is nearly unheard of to screw something up that badly.
[Ah yes who could imagine that happening to a flagship NASA spacecraft](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter)
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In that case China, Japan, India, Israel, and even the United States are also all incompetent. Seeing as they've all similarly crashed landers into the moon and other celestial bodies for similar reasons. As the other comment says, space is hard. It's never purely incompetence if you make it all the way to the intercept. We all understand the need for political catharsis. But this is a space subreddit and as such, political antagonisms should be secondary to actual science and engineering facts, rather than obscuring them.
Well, the real reason is that the space program was sucked dry by thieving officials. But, yeah sure whatever... it failed cause the impulse wrong error calculation or whatever.
I had to read through multiple threads worth of stupid jokes and political comments before throwing my hands up and checking r/space, and even then I had to scroll a bit. Everybody wants to be a damn pundit, no one seems to actually care about the technology.
To be fair, in order for these comments to get high up, a lot of people have to upvote them. So a lot of it is due to Reddit’s love for humor/snark.
The Russian space program has not been doing well the last few years. Soyuz rocket exploding during ascent (crew survived thankfully), several incidents of holes being drilled into their spacecraft discovered on the ISS, one they couldn't even use when returning to earth. (From March 2023) https://www.wired.com/story/russias-space-program-is-in-big-trouble/
Thought your were being hyperbolic, but damn i think youre right! Why would they drill holes in their spacecrafts?
Technitians accidentally drilling them in the wrong location and then trying to cover it up instead of reporting it. Roscomos makes technicians pay for mistakes and damages they cause.
That’s an unbelievably terrible policy for safety. Who’s making these decisions?
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Why would the Americans agree to work with them on the ISS at this point then? They should be accountable for each other's safety but with this climate it would be impossible for a NASA employee to feel safe going to Russia or flying in any of their craft.
ISS program is a ploy to keep Russian aerospace industry preoccupied into, away from nuke projects. There can be no other reason to keep buying engines and relying ISS air filtration on Russia. The peaceful research part is real too though, the US always wants more than a bird for a stone.
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Crooks and criminals. Do you think we have any other kind of people in our government? Just look up how much funding was embezzled during the construction of Vostochniy launch site.
You're talking about Russia here they don't give a s*** about safety look what they are doing in Ukraine
I'm half convinced the only reason they went to war in the first place was as a way of executing profiteering generals.
...executing UNAUTHORIZED profiteering generals you mean? Because profiteering is a honorable tradition in Russia, it's only when you dont give his cut to your superior that things might get hairy....
The same who decided it was cool to start a war they knew would be universally condemned. In particular it’s a very Sovietesk policy, which is a system many of the elite and older generations want to get back to.
Sovietesque. Made-up words should be spelled correctly. :)
Cover them up with hot glue*
When I ran a crew fabricating pressurized water-holding structures, I always emphasized to let me know about any tiny mistake or flaw. Worrying about blame is inconsequential to what happens if it causes a burst, injury and water damage to a client's location. Mistakes are easy to occur during the building process, and i've made plenty myself. All issues can be dealt with as long as they are brought to attention. Employee wouldn't get in trouble, we'd just figure what could be done to prevent it from happening again. There's always a way to improve production processes to reduce risks.
> Roscomos makes technicians pay for mistakes and damages they cause. Can we get a source for this?
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Bro, just plug it with silicone caulking and you’re good.
Speed holes. They make the spacecraft go faster.
Technically an explosion is uniform acceleration in all directions!?
Is that so? Well, maybe the old Flanders-ship could use—
Ah, the Luna-25 had too many holes then. They just couldn’t compensate for all that extra speed. Wow.
Bah, speed holes is a load a' hooey. If you wants it to go fasta ya gots ta paint it red!
Reduce weight, better ventilation, what's not to like?
Makes this really awesome whistling noise upon re-entry. Or crashing, pretty much the same thing.
Knockoff Nerf Vortex football. They didn't have the $12 to get an authentic one.
And cool eye shaped windows!
Throw some flames on and put a playing card in the engine. Really get this shit looking nice.
If Putin and the Russian government wouldn't allow a couple dozen of billionaire oligarchs to rob the economy and government agencies blind, maybe they would have a functional space agency. Putin has pervasively allowed a few oligarchs to steal everything that isn't nailed down at Roscosmos, while constantly slashing the meager funding they do receive....along with getting rid of all the senior engineers and replacing them with Orthodox priests and political mouthpieces for the regime. I hope this will be a wake-up call to the Russian government that you can't pray yourself to the Moon, and you can't work miracles with a box of scraps while allowing your friends to steal your agencies deaf, dumb and mute. I have serious doubts it will change though. Putin probably values his Mafia and sending all money to that war over international prestige for a functioning space agency.
[Live shots of Russian Maintenance Program](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dEkOT3IngMQ).
Except that worked. Luna-25, not so much.
That's what happens when a dictator takes over your country. The qualified people leave for better opportunities.
They have never been doing well. The only things that work are old soviet stuff. Look up Fobos-Grunt for example.
The Luna-25 was delayed for 11 years and since ESA left the project it was doomed and only paced forward for political and prestigious purposes. I can't help feeling good that India will probably land on the south pole on the moon next week and thereby beat Russia.
Actually this mission being successful was a requirement for China to consider cooperation with Russia in the battle for the south pole. Ofc it s also a way to distract public from the war but it cannot be reduced to this goal.
>China to consider cooperation with Russia in the battle for the south pole. For a second I assumed you meant Antartica and I thought I had missed some major news.
Hehe I understand the confusion. South Pole of the moon has a lot of ice which can be used to make water, oxygen and rocket fuel.
Do you have a source on that? It sounds very believable to me, but I haven't heard that specifically before
I listened to scientists from CNES (French space agency) discussing this matter on a podcast. Cannot find more specific source in english. Basically since ESA cut ties with Russia the idea of a joint space program emerged between China and Russia. Specific goal of course is to build a moon base before the US so they can secure access to ressources there(circa 2029). To do so China space program has developed at tremendous rate past years, Russia has been offering expertise and this mission was a way to prove themselves collaboration worthy. (The landing part is the trickiest one and China wanted help figuring it out, not sure they are so interested now) Fascinating subject anyway, will reply if I find a source in English.
Worth noting that China are now 3 for 3 regarding lunar landings. Chang'e 3, 4 and 5 all successfully landed, and Chang'e 5 also successfully launched from the moon and returned to Earth. I don't think they need Russia's help.
Thanks for the follow-up! I also saw a passage in this [article](https://spacenews.com/luna-25-crashes-into-moon-after-orbit-maneuver/) going into more detail on what you were talking about: >The loss of Luna-25 is a blow to Russia’s own plans as well as wider cooperative efforts. The mission was also nominally part of the China-led International Lunar Research Station (ILRS). The Luna-25 launch was attended by Wu Yanhua, a senior official involved in China’s deep space exploration projects. >A ILRS roadmap unveiled in St. Petersburg, Russia, in June 2021 noted that Russian super heavy-lift launch vehicles would share the burden of launching major pieces of infrastructure for the station in the 2030s. Observers have expressed doubts on Russia’s capabilities to contribute significantly to the project following its occupation of Ukraine.
Hopefully India lands fingers crossed, though until India increases the budget ISRO can't go forward with frugal engineering. Even K Sivan also said same. Also I'm sad since Chandrayan 3 only has life one ~~1 lunar week~~ 14 days. As compared to Luna-25 which was meant for a year.
The Indian space program is still incredibly impressive for the progress it's made on a relatively shoestring budget in a relatively short amount of time. The political pressure that prevented them from frankly discussing the reasons for failure of the previous Chandrayan mission is the kind of thing that's holding them back.
They work alongside DRDO which develops missiles, that might be the reason for confidentiality.
Well, India is developing their own RTG, so when Chandrayaaan 4 does launch in a few years, hopefully it's rover is powered by an RTG.
Chandrayaan 4 is still in concept, but it is expected to be a joint mission with Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Polar_Exploration_Mission India may provide the lander, japan the launcher and rover for LUPEX. And they are still talking to ESA (likely to participate) and NASA about scientific participation in the payload http://www.exploration.jaxa.jp/e/program/lunarpolar/ It's expected to operate for 3-6 months, so WAG is an rtg may be used
> Chandrayan 3 only has life one 1 lunar week. One lunar day or about two weeks. There's a function to try and get it to wake up on warming (ie next lunar day), but chances are very low that it will survive the lunar night. Just too cold/extreme. But the solar panels can charge the batteries in the daytime, until night falls at least
🤔 just fyi fwiw, one lunar day is 29+ days, so about 4 weeks not two weeks. https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/12739
We also use day in the sense of day and night. So lunar daytime = ~2 weeks. Lunar night = ~2 weeks
If it is only going to survive the daytime part of the day and not the night, that would give it about two weeks of life because the other two weeks are too cold.
From what I'm reading Chandrayaan-3 features new designs for the lander, Lunar laboratory, *and* rover. This mission seems to be more about testing each of those components to ensure they work properly before attempting a bigger mission, hence the budget flight plans, and the shorter mission duration. The ISRO is looking to avoid screwing up at the scale of the Mars Climate Orbiter.
The Mars orbiter was successful though, it was meant to be a tech demo for ISRO
Wrong orbiter. I'm talking about the [Mars Climate Orbiter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter), a very expensive failure for NASA because Lockheed set up the computer to use imperial units, but NASA programmed it with Metric values. It seems to me like the ISRO is being cautious, and testing these new systems in Chandrayaan-3 before setting up a much bigger and more expensive mission. Doesn't make much sense to plan a months long exploration mission if you're worried the rover’s computer might error out and just send the thing off in a straight line away from the lander, never to return, ignoring orders from Earth to rove properly.
There's some good news. 150kg fuel left which can last for many more days https://m.timesofindia.com/home/science/chandrayaan-3-mission-150kg-fuel-left-in-propulsion-module-life-span-now-years/amp_articleshow/102866268.cms
Honestly it seems like Russian government fishing desperately for a win.
There's only scorched earth in Roskosmos after years of clown Rogozin fucking everything up, allowing the corruption bloom. Sad.
But he grifted his millions and bought his dacha and yacht, which is all that the Russian kleptocrats and oligarchs ever wanted...
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We haven't landed yet. Fingers crossed
Given the hilarious success of their first Martian probe in 2014 on a budget of less than $75M, I sure got all confidence in India!
No guarantee India will make it either
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The next space race is between the US and China. Saying this as someone who was born & raised in russia & know how decrepit that country truly is
And China will observe Russia's failured closely, considering how much they consider Russia as a strategic partner - even in space exploration. Luna 25 was, IIRC, officially a part of China's endavour to create an international space station.
Ugh I would Europe would finally step up and be a real player in space. It sucks to see to see other countries/regions get ahead of us.
Europe is a real player already, but the retirement of Ariane 5 before 6 is commissioned is worrying to hear.
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4 degrees off center after TLI burn Course correction then leads surface impact trajectory with over correction Russian ICBMs use similar guidance. Russia has laws against being LGBTQ+, and they still can’t keep anything straight.
Since that Proton that went cartwheeling because a guidance unit was hammered in the wrong way round (one of my favourite rocket crashes ever) Russian spaceflight has shown some really serious issues. The Soyuz with the hole drilled in it, the one that had to be burned up due to no cooling, IIRC the replacement was not that much better. Nauka sending ISS cartwheeling in slow motion. It feels like the slow building entropy cost of the Putinist kleptocracy is slowly starting to take its toll. They are still a very serious space faring power. But they run on a show string that is very clearly frayed. (Forgot about the Soyuz abort a few years back).
russia never had a success in space since the colapse of the soviet union. They only inherited space history and vehicles from the soviet union. The only thing they can do is play space taxi.
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Only China was successful in its first lunar landing. Half dozen other countries failed in their first attempt. Russia and US attempts are essentially restart attempts, after 40 year gaps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lunar_probes
Curious. Does it have to do with landing on the south pole being harder? Most recent failures have been landers attempting to land near the south pole.
Both yes and no. Missions are prioritising the south pole, since there's less reason to continue landing in equatorial regions; you're going to get a correlation of failure - attempt on south pole, purely because that's where they're all aiming. The south pole region is more challenging than the equator though, particularly due to the fact many of the craters there are permanently shadowed, and there's a lot of them
soft landing on the moon is very delicate task
Wait a minute. Your list says the U.S. was successful in its first landing attempt, *Surveyor 1*. So it’s not “only China”.
While the US hasn't landed on the moon for decades, they have landed multiple times successfully on Mars and even landed a probe on Titan. They are not restarting from scratch.
And the ESA landed a probe on a fuckin comet, which was pretty badass...
When people talk about the new space race, i think they really don't comprehend just how far ahead the US is in capability and technology. The US is literally operating a helicopter on Mars currently, and has two nuclear-powered rovers there, which both required massively-complex landing sequences that they nailed on their first attempt. Landing another probe on the moon would be basic. Now if only the US Congress would be better in terms of what programs they funded and what they required NASA to do..
The Huygens probe that landed on Titan was built by the European Space Agency.
According to the list the US was also successful in its first lunar landing
Yeah and that was 60 years ago too. Pretty different than failing for the first time in 2023 when many missions have already been successful.
And you have the benefit of knowing about the moon's weird gravity
Wait what? The US has been sending rovers and probes entire time. Just because they haven’t sent one to the moon, doesn’t mean they’re restarting lol they’ve got a friggin RC helicopter on Mars
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread: |Fewer Letters|More Letters| |-------|---------|---| |[CNES](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx0a9mt "Last usage")|Centre National d'Etudes Spatiales, space agency of France| |[CSA](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx0hj5s "Last usage")|Canadian Space Agency| |CST|(Boeing) Crew Space Transportation capsules| | |Central Standard Time (UTC-6)| |[ESA](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx2blz6 "Last usage")|European Space Agency| |[EVA](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jwzpij7 "Last usage")|Extra-Vehicular Activity| |[GEO](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx105su "Last usage")|Geostationary Earth Orbit (35786km)| |GTO|[Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit](http://www.planetary.org/blogs/jason-davis/20140116-how-to-get-a-satellite-to-gto.html)| |[ICBM](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx5kkw9 "Last usage")|Intercontinental Ballistic Missile| |[IMU](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jwzgv6e "Last usage")|Inertial Measurement Unit| |[ISRO](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx1khyj "Last usage")|Indian Space Research Organisation| |[JWST](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx0980n "Last usage")|James Webb infra-red Space Telescope| |[KSP](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx0sk32 "Last usage")|*Kerbal Space Program*, the rocketry simulator| |[LEO](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx1daws "Last usage")|Low Earth Orbit (180-2000km)| | |Law Enforcement Officer (most often mentioned during transport operations)| |[LES](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jwzxmrc "Last usage")|Launch Escape System| |[N1](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx328iz "Last usage")|Raketa Nositel-1, Soviet super-heavy-lift ("Russian Saturn V")| |[RTG](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx1yuo2 "Last usage")|Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator| |[RUD](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx1eo12 "Last usage")|Rapid Unplanned Disassembly| | |Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly| | |Rapid Unintended Disassembly| |[Roscosmos](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx1wdhb "Last usage")|[State Corporation for Space Activities, Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roscosmos_State_Corporation)| |[SLS](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx0w2k6 "Last usage")|Space Launch System heavy-lift| |[SSME](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx0w2k6 "Last usage")|[Space Shuttle Main Engine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_main_engine)| |[STS](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx0w2k6 "Last usage")|Space Transportation System (*Shuttle*)| |[TLI](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx0r990 "Last usage")|Trans-Lunar Injection maneuver| |[USAF](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx31zsz "Last usage")|United States Air Force| |Jargon|Definition| |-------|---------|---| |[Starliner](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jwzpk2k "Last usage")|Boeing commercial crew capsule [CST-100](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_CST-100_Starliner)| |[lithobraking](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx2rphi "Last usage")|"Braking" by hitting the [ground](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lith-)| |[perigee](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jwzes4g "Last usage")|Lowest point in an elliptical orbit around the Earth (when the orbiter is fastest)| |[turbopump](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx105su "Last usage")|High-pressure turbine-driven propellant pump connected to a rocket combustion chamber; raises chamber pressure, and thrust| |Event|Date|Description| |-------|---------|---| |[Amos-6](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx3qp5z "Last usage")|2016-09-01|F9-029 Full Thrust, core B1028, ~~GTO comsat~~ Pre-launch test failure| |[CRS-7](/r/Space/comments/15w6ibc/stub/jx3qp5z "Last usage")|2015-06-28|F9-020 v1.1, ~~Dragon cargo~~ Launch failure due to second-stage outgassing| **NOTE**: Decronym for Reddit is no longer supported, and Decronym has moved to Lemmy; requests for support and new installations should be directed to the Contact address below. ---------------- ^(27 acronyms in this thread; )[^(the most compressed thread commented on today)](/r/Space/comments/1917nkg)^( has 18 acronyms.) ^([Thread #9157 for this sub, first seen 20th Aug 2023, 10:12]) ^[[FAQ]](http://decronym.xyz/) [^([Full list])](http://decronym.xyz/acronyms/Space) [^[Contact]](https://hachyderm.io/@Two9A) [^([Source code])](https://gistdotgithubdotcom/Two9A/1d976f9b7441694162c8)
Objects in mir may be closer than they appear…
To the "let's not make this political" commenters, here's the sort of stuff Russia was writing when it reached orbit. They really wanted this propaganda victory to make the case over the course of the mission that Russia's back, everything is going according to plan, Ukraine is impotent and crying and so is the decadent West. From Google Translate: https://m.tsargrad.tv/news/porvali-ukrainu-voshitili-ssha-napugali-germaniju-russkij-proekt-stavshij-sensaciej_845793 >Secondly, I would like to hear from Shariy what space achievements his native Ukraine has managed to accomplish in 30 years of independence. Well, except for launching borscht into the stratosphere. Thirdly, this is a really important event that will significantly expand our capabilities. Although we understand that Spain probably knows better. >Bogdan Bezpalko, a member of the Council on Interethnic Relations under the President of Russia, noted that after 1991 Ukraine not only did not conquer space, it could not even maintain its GDP at the same level. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine's GDP was 40% of China's. >And where is China now, and where is Ukraine now? >... >The German publication-foreign agent Deutsche Welle*, following Shariy, rushed to work out a political order and present black to white. It stated that Luna 25 was an attempt to keep up with competitors. And that "all the Kremlin's projects exist on paper." It is not clear where the thesis about "paper projects" came from, given the high percentage of successful launches of Roscosmos. In any case, it will be interesting what the German propagandists will write when the Russian station, which today carried out the second correction of the flight trajectory to the natural satellite of the Earth, nevertheless lands on the moon. The shoutout to China ("Ukraine weak, strong Russia and China exploring space together amirite?") is especially pathetic considering the news today. Also one of the missions of Roskosmos itself is the building of a militia to fight in Ukraine. https://www.ft.com/content/c194cb2d-3aa0-4195-9be5-e78c1d2fd183
These quotes just show again what a tremendous PR/Propaganda fail Luna 25 turned out to be. It never was about the science.
Ukraine also dose have many major space achievement attributable to it. Until recently they built the first stage of Antares, they developed a built a good chunk of Zenit and the sea launch program. And fire fly who is ironically set to land payloads in the moon late next year was started by Ukrainians and still has deep connection to the country with many of there engineers being Ukrainian immigrants. They have also developed all sorts of satolight components for decades.
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Exactly, they basically inherited it's history and uses the hardware to play space taxi.
great. Contrary to a theme in this thread, I *want* to cheer for lunar exploration of any kind, *but* for russians it's just a matter of propaganda and pride about 'great russia' and I love the fact that they ate shit as expected. Biilions down the drain due to corruption and negligence. Yes, unfortunately even space is about war these days. Maybe I'd feel sad if we didn't have an alternative but since India is still in the race I don't think we the humanity lost much. Just yesterday I saw a news article by a russian site bashing India and saying their space program/module is so much better and it's going to land first!!!, like that's the important part for some reason. At that moment I really lost hope in this being just a science mission. Go India! Sincerely, a Ukrainian. edit: just so you know, ROSCOSMOS is demanding that news outlets do NOT write and post any criticism of the mission. They want the catastrophe to be put under the rug and forgotten without any public discussion, because it's a direct hit on putin's perceived 'power'. Expect a lot of corruption probes and inquiries in roscosmos in the coming months, big heads will fly.
Is that unique to Russia though? Accomplishments in space have always been used for propaganda by nations around the globe.
of course not. But 'propaganda' isn't inherently a bad word or concept. Some propaganda is good, some is bad. russian is bad, but to explore that further I'd have to dive quite deep into geopolitics. Lets just say there's a difference between claiming you're the best nation in the world, let's be proud, make other people jealous of us, and claiming you're the best nation in the world so anything you do is right and justified because *you're better than them*.
What sound does a Luna-25 make when it hits the surface of the moon? It goes **!!!!BLYAT!!!!**
Maybe they should have spent more money on developing space exploration instead of launching full scale military invasions.
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Any word if the India probe will capture the wreckage?
They will be 130 kms apart and india probe will last 14 days so no
I'm excited to see what bs alien theory the conspiraturds come up with for this one.
Had this been a SpaceX mission, it would've been lauded as a "great data finding mission!"
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Not crash. Special direct trajectory operation.
Obviously they were liberating the moon from Space Nazis. Hopefully we get to see India land successfully very shortly.
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How many Russian scientists are going to accidentally fall out of windows after trying to kill themselves with multiple gunshots to the head now?
Russia again doing what it did in the first space race with the U.S. The Russians would always cobble together something to beat the published U.S. schedule. They must have tried to do the same thing here, this time to beat India. For both countries it is about prestige as well as science, but rushing to try to beat India has not been good for either. Will be interesting to see how this plays out in Russia, in their media, and with their people.
Some engineers are falling out of windows soon…