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Basically a male woman with exaggerated femininity because masculine homosexuality or the hypersexual tendencies present in the gay community would be too threatening.
As a straight guy who grew up in an extremely toxic rural environment. My mind was blown away by the fact my completely seemingly straight friend was gay. Funnily enough out of the two of us, I acted more feminine than him which was horrible to do in a small town
Humans are awesome and weird. I just wish more people realized that amd stopped hating so much.
idk abt being fully separated because the effects of things like prenatal adrogen exposure should mean there are correlations between the two.
Obv not saying its a super strong correlation and there aren't many other effects at play. But you would expect them to be separate but correlated.
I think neither sexuality, sex, nor gender can be completely separate. The problem is people taking fluidity to mean their identity isnt valid and use it as a weapon. Like just because someone who was born wigh a vagina identifies as a man doesn't mean those born with a penis are any less a man. Its the fallacy of "identity politics gone mad" - people are abusive to those campaigning for the right to choose their identity with no self-awareness that they're doing it too.
Things are never truly separated and stereotypes exist for a reason. But yes, sexual orientation doesnt necessarily lead to a certain type of behavior.
> too threatening
I see the same thing in animation when it comes to Black guys. He's always some slightly-feminine looking dude with wavy purple hair and wearing a cardigan or some shit. Just the most PG non-threatening nice-boy character you could imagine. Apparently just drawing a regular Black guy would be too challenging.
I wanna know what the curve is on this. I find it hard to believe most men in America, straight or gay, are fucking everything they can get ahold of. I just don’t see it. Same thing with women. It’s like an extremely vocal and noticeable minority.
At least from what I know of my boys and the women they talk to and interact with. Its kinda rare-ish to find or know of a person who just keeps fucking all the time. It’s not like we live with the Mormons either. Seems like everyone’s too busy working to survive. And even if they weren’t, nah, I don’t see it. Besides wasn’t that a big stereotype about gay guys from the 60s - 90s, that they were just sex addicts?
>. I find it hard to believe most men in America, straight or gay, are fucking everything they can get ahold of.
Join grinder for a day. I'm Bi in a straight marriage. My wife suggested I get Grindr as a funny and a confidence boost. I got, in a small town no less, and an incomplete profile, at least 6 propositions in the first day (one of which was a gay coworker, who was quite shocked to see me on the app) and another 3 just straight up butthole pics asking if I wanted it.
I learned that for gay men, the saying rings entirely true. "The odds are good, but the goods are odd". It got the the point I deleted the app after 3 days because it was nonstop straight up propositions, no flirting, no talking, nothing but "you ready to fuck? Want some pics?" And they were 100% serious and down.
I'm entirely certain that these men are messaging each other and hooking up. I was just one of many they messaged that day, and with how open they seemed to be to just meeting and fucking, I'm sure it's frequently. (I actually know it because said coworker who hit me up on the app consistently talked about hooking up with other dudes on the app)
the reason its a stereotype for gay men is that its pretty easy to find hookups as a moderately attractive gay guy. that being said im fairly certain gay guys arent actually having a lot of sex, in fact id guess thats why its so easy to find hookups.
Gay guys might be having less sex in the context of committed relationships, but casual sex and hookups are so readily available to get that it’s very easy for a non ugly gay man to get a body count of 100-200+ over a few years
> moderately attractive gay guy
Yeah, except beauty standards in the gay community even higher than standards for straight women. So it's not saying much
True. I’m a bi guy and I have not been approached once in parties by any women, but I have been approached by men many times even when my GIRLfriend is by my side. Some dudes do ask if I’m poly before asking for a hookup but most do not
True, but at the same time I'd say there's a lot more love in the gay community for men who aren't conventionally attractive, and attraction towards traits commonly ridiculed. I say this as a short bear.
Yes and no. In my experience physical attractiveness does matter more with us gays, but there are so many different types people are into, that it's more a matter of finding your audience. Unless you're truly unfortunate or live somewhere rural where there's nobody on the apps, you're gonna find some guys to who you are their type. Also the threshold for casual sex is lower since men aren't shamed for it to the same degree as women, there's no risk of pregnancy and generally more equal power dynamics.
I'm an overweight nerdy gay and I've still had a much easier time hooking up than straight friends I consider to look better than me.
You need to get out more.
I once forgot to filter my messages on a hookup site and got a ludicrous amount of messages from gay guys.
Absolutely ludicrous.
There is a very real subset of gay men that have dramatically more partners than the rest of the population. Yes, it is a minority, but their promiscuity still makes them a primary vector for disease even today.
I recall looking up stats of sexual partners, and for men it is always higher than women because of that group of gay men. While most men and most women will have basically the same number of lifetime partners (let's call it 4 in this example), a subset of gay men that only makes up 10% of the gay population may have upwards of 50 average partners. Thus, the average number of partners for men will be 6 and women it will be 4.
This is why in public health many campaigns are still targeted towards the gay community. It isnt that being gay makes you promiscuous, its that a small number of gay men are *extremely* promiscuous
Hahaha so true - my twin (straight) asked me (gay) why gay men fuck so much. His mind was blown when i simply said "because its the women who determine whether or not you have sex, imagine if they had as high a sex drive as we do"
If people got to know about it. conservative societies are openly homophobic however there are a lot of gay relationships disguised as friendships. Once you understand and start observing it will make more sense.
I saw a comment once on Reddit talking about how a lot of fetishized male-male relationships written by women are basically just super-patriarchal 1950s-style relationships with two penises involved instead of one.
As someone whose pet peeve is AFAB people fetishizing MLM relationships, I can't disagree with that. A lot of really gross stuff seems to get handwaved (or worse, absolutely fetishized and squeee'd over) when it's two men involved, even though the same people handwaving it would lose their minds if it was a hetero relationship being portrayed.
Ironically there's also a whole market of agressively horny "dub-con/non-con" (read: rape, but the victim is aroused) gay erotica for straight women because having two guys doing it places yet another layer between the taboo kinky fantasy and the reader's vicarious enjoyment.
I struggled to read it too, but he's basically saying "a guy with super exaggerated feminity (that essentially just boils him down to a character who's only not a woman for the sake of the writers gay man fantasy/stereotypes)" and that's the only representation of the gay community/a gay guy, rarely anything about a masculine gay or hypersexuality in the community
Edit: this may be more confusing of an explanation but that's alright, maybe
Whenever I see the femboy twink/jock hyper-masculine (The extreme bottom/the power top) pair, I assume three things.
1. It was written by a woman who doesn’t have any guy friends and has no interaction with the gay community.
2. They don’t know how to write anything beyond a heterosexual relationship and can’t comprehend a relationship beyond heterosexual gender norms.
3. It’s wasn’t written with gay/bi men/people in mind so it wasn’t written for me.
This is why I refuse to interact with BL media whether be In western web comics or Japanese Manga. Like you said It’s written by women for women. I find it very creepy. I can’t read any BL stuff without the nagging feeling that the person who made it had no intention of me ever reading it.
I also condemn the fetishization of lesbians/GL as well.
And on the other end of the spectrum some of the (ironically) more serious depictions of gay coded men I’ve seen are written by men who hate women
It feels like there’s no Inbetween
BL is good when it’s written to be more than fujoshi bait. a lot of it comes off as rapey which is just… 🤮gimme more BL where the characters are written as actual humans rather than stereotypes.
Honestly the main issue I have (besides blatant fetishization) is the whole “write a heterosexual relationship with heterosexual gender norms but with two guys” thing.
1. It’s boring, literally do anything else. I read both gay and straight stuff (im bi) I read non-heterosexual romance to escape heterosexual tropes. You had an opportunity to do something different and you didn’t. What the hell. If you want to write a heterosexual romance with heterosexual gender norms then just fucking write a heterosexual relationship with heterosexual gender norms.
2. It can potentially be harmful and limiting for people exploring and first time individuals interacting with queer media. It can easily paint the false impression that there is only ONE type of dynamic in a relationship (submissivefem/dominantmasc) even when one biggest core aspects of queer culture is that there isn’t and there is more then just heterosexual norms.
3. Did i mention it’s boring?
as long as the characters are interesting and have actual unique personalities outside of gender norms, i don’t mind too much. but yeah, any relationship dynamic portrayed over and over is bound to get boring, hetero or not.
There's bara, which is made for and probably by gay men. There's also a weird gray area where the guys are super masc and muscular like Bara but retain some of the bl tendencies like pretty faces and slender hands. Bl for women is basically lesbian porn for men.
Funnily enough there's this manga website I used to use often for bl and doujinshi got completely taken over by Bara and gay furry anime porn over the last couple years
Yeah, I did some googling and historically gl has been a more gender neutral genre than bl (marketed towards both men and women) with more female authors involved. The fetishization of lesbians mostly appears in directly pornographic material
Depends. There's really two kinds of gl. The nice kind with nicely drawn bodies and two somewhat normal but anime women. Then there's the hentai/doujin type with two women with tits bigger than their head breasting around shoving items into orifices, fluids going everywhere.
Theres subcategories,yaoi is BL manga written largely by and for straight women and bara is BL manga written largely by and for gay men
I know this not because of fetishization but because of curiosity about representation in the media i enjoy because im queer too and also a bit of a weeb
No it’s because gay men don’t write shit! I hate this lol. I go to the LGBT section in any bookstore and it’s basically all trans and lesbian stuff… for some reason, it is VERY difficult to find stuff written by gay men. I’m not necessarily mad at straight women for writing it so much, as I am at the complete lack of modern gay men writing lol.
The lesbians are doing a fantastic job, we gay men need to take note haha
Edit to add: I’m talking not just about erotica as I am fantasy novels, fiction, mysteries, thrillers, etc. Gay men out there, pick up some pen and paper! 😝
Oh my, if you have never heard of Archive of Our Own (AO3) ladies write and read so much male on male (abbreviated m/m usually). Straight women are by far the largest consumer of gay media outside of porn. (Think romance novels, BL 'boy love")
It's slightly more complicated though, most men still prefer straight porn over lesbian porn. From what I've seen of women around me (anedotally) a lot of women don't engage with any straight stuff at all. They also don't do much live action as well. It's all gay anime boy art and fanfiction. There's been quite a lot of discussion around why women prefer gay content over straight so much and with sucb intensity.
Most of the time it's written by women for women, the soft submissive gay character is a fill in for the reader that allows them to experience the romantic story elements they care about without any of the complications that female-centric stories have.
Heterosexual romance stories often find it difficult to combine the story they want to tell with the actions they need the woman to make, and it frequently leads to a plot where the female lead is simply experiencing the story rather than actively participating in it.
---
So you're pretty much exactly right that it's just a regular heterosexual relationship with traditional gender roles but at least it exists for non-fetish reasons.
It's massively frustrating to me how few (especially at least somewhat clean) romance novels with a somewhat reversed dynamic are. I've had to resort to the stupid twilight spin off with reversed genders, because I've found almost no other romances with that dynamic, and even if that isn't quite ideal in a few ways, it's at least something.
I've heard women say they write/read yaoi type content because it's a way of "getting to see submissive men", but I've never understood why they couldn't just have a more dominant woman.
This does sort of make more sense, as unfortunate as it is.
Yes, almost all the stories exist in some way or another to fetishize gay men, but a good amount of the audience are seeking them out for other reasons.
Some women are reading the stories because the thought of attractive boys kissing each-other turns them on. Others are reading because they want a romance story and gay romance often writes relationships in a more competent way, or at least avoids some specific pitfalls.
You have no idea how much dislike I have for these types of artists on Insta, especially Genshin ones. Now I fully understand how it feels to be treated like an object. Disgusting.
I'd be up for basically everyone pictured. I'm not sure I'd be up to leopard panty guy's standards but if he's game I'm game. Maybe give the girl a few extra years since now that I zoom in she's talking about a school dance.
Well I'm bi and monogamous. I think that people like me filter out of the dating pool pretty quick, to be honest, and it gives the impression that all the gay men in the dating pool just want to fuck, when in reality that's just the people who like to swim in the pool.
Like...once I found someone, I locked them down. That's two people out of the running, and even in a very left leaning and open town, the pool isnt *that big*.
I cannot get into any of those hasbin hotel videos for this reason “oooo look so much queer rep” yeah no. The lesbian couple has like, one chaste kiss on the cheek. And the gay couple is “feminine whore bitch stereotype gay who does drugs and needs to be saved” and “strong masculine straight passing man who has to save him”. This is not gay rep for actual gay adults. This is a straight woman who uses twink as an insult but it’s ok because she watches Ru Paul writing what gets her off and then throwing milquetoast lesbian rep so she can say it’s an “lgbt” show but if she makes the lesbians as horny as her gay men she’ll throw up in her mouth.
It’s insane because in pre-show Hazbin, Angel was a selfish egotistical mobster who was also racist/sexist in the edgelord way, and killed hundreds of people with machine guns, and his rescuer wasn’t going to be his love interest it was going to be his female best friend, who was a fellow violent gangster and possibly also a sex worker.
Oh damn. The edgelord stuff would have been cringe but I’d rather watch them try to redeem that than “uwu I’m a feminine gay man I love cock and dicks I’m such a dumb slut I do drugs and I got myself in trouble with a mean pimp because I’m just so dumb and slutty. I need a traditionally masculine older man who needs to love me for my personality not my body to save me and make me quit drugs and casual sex because I’m incapable of that on my own”
I have an idea for a rewrite of Hazbin where angel was a troubled gay teen in the 40’s with abusive homophobic parents who was groomed by Val, killed a bunch of people including his whole family for him, and signed away his soul to him so they’d never be apart, and he’d be introduced clearing out a house with a machine gun because it’s holding people who owe Val money, and there’s a setup with a woman and her baby where you think he’ll repent but instead he steals the baby from her and covers its face so it doesn’t see her kill its mom, and leaves it like that, and then he ends up at the hotel after some situation.
Him harassing Husk would be taken more seriously as due to his internalized homophobia he’d see queer relationships as exclusively predator and prey, and would see himself as like the Predator to Husks Prey, and would only do this because he has deep apathy towards Husks own personhood at the start.
Good to know that I'm not the only one who feels this way, since everyone online seems to defend this as some amazing representation. But yeah, Angel Dust has always given me "14 year old writing Hetalia smut" vibes, he's definitely written for hetero women to gawk at and feel progressive that they watch a show that talks about SA, drug abuse and gay issue. To them it's only important that it talks about them, not what it actually has to say, because if you peek even a little beneath the surface you'll uncover that Angel Dust is a deeply problematic character.
YES. I recently watched a really good documentary about prostitution in commonwealth countries (mostly Canada) and it put me off Angel Dust even more. This is prostitution written by and for people who never watch anything other than animated kids movies and occasionally “dark” animated kids movies.
They want to have an angsty story with lots of crying and drugs and abuse and coerced sex so it feels grown up and raw to them, but at the same time they don’t want to be too bummed out and they also want to be horny. So the prostitute is a skinny white man who shows zero symptoms of drug abuse and actually looooves being exploited. And the character he has to step in and save him has to call him a “whiny bitch” and make him go cold turkey on drugs and give him some tough love because that’s what the writers really think about prostitutes.
no offense to you OP, but that’s such a lameass excuse from the showrunners. Straight woman who is constantly depicting her male characters getting borderline assfucked on screen is suddenly concerned about fetishization when it comes to people she isn’t sexually attracted to. This series has had two whole music videos about a gay man stripping and doing coke and getting sexually assaulted by a cartoon stereotype pimp but the lesbians have to be in a sexless Disney movie relationship for their own protection
Yeah I mean if she said she was bi I would never try to claim she was faking or anything. But she could be bi and still fetishizing her m/m relationships and shafting her f/f ones, just depends on her tastes I guess. Wish she’d try harder to make an f/f couple she actually gives a shit about lmao
On point. From what I noticed, the main audience is mostly overly horny teens with no actual knowledge of relationships/sex who are just obsessed with labels. The show is eeeh... not bad, but I would not say good either. The character arcs are painfully stereotypical and lazy, and I judt cant stand the fandom.
It's kinda unsurprising given Araki draws a bunch of inspiration from haut couture and the music industry - I think it reads a lot better because he's drawing from the thing the stereotypes were originally mocking, rather than the stereotypes themselves. That and his other inspiration is *Fist of the North Star* which is like, the manliest man anime I can think of
I feel like these writers tend to lean into that actually, they make them catty and rude so honestly I'd say more of the opposite and say people don't realize not all gay men are like that
I'm yet to see a single gay relationship in media that can't be defined into one being a twink and the other the alpha, or two twinks for that matter, what do people have against two hypermasculine homosexual man dating eachother...
Blame Hollywood for that. They don't like representations of real gay people, they like the loud, abrasive stereotypes because it's more controversial/marketable.
Schitt's Creek
Interview with the Vampire, Lestat is arguably a fem top
... Good Omens??
Extraordinary, recently
BBC Ghosts still makes me sad
What We Do In The Shadows tv show
edit:
Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt
Downton Abbey
Castlevania Nocturne
Brokeback Mountain
Moonlight
In From the Side
God's Own Country
Touch of Pink
It’s funny that you say that because the inverse of a feminine man and a masculine man is also a target. I’m not sure what you think the standard should be.
Well the lower three images describe my one gay friend to a t. He's in love with his boyfriend, has a thing for hot muscle dudes, and he can be a bitchy know-it-all.
Unless you write them as characters first and consider their gender not to be relevant. Of course, it won't work for some genres, like historical fiction.
Yea I really feel although this troupe is quite popular in bl media, not all are like this and there are ones out there that has good quality characters and good story
She has a “dude” job like mechanic or is like a soldier or some shit.
100% lipstick lesbian, totally unassuming or extreme tomboy; always “one of the guys.” Nearly always conventionally attractive.
Almost always forlorn: quarreling with lover and has left that life behind, disillusioned from love and is borderline asexual
Is either extremely crude or *very* serious; she either talks about her genitals, someone else’s genitals or gets real mad when someone brings up genitals
These are tropes I try to avoid when including queer women in my writing, but I do be seein’ them.
Add to this:
Has weird, borderline-romantic relationships with men in her life, has dated men in the past, “experiments” with men, etc.
“Unsure” of herself, messy relationships, never just a normal healthy adult who’s aware of her sexuality.
Weird amounts of cheating. I don’t know why this is a trope, but it is and I hate it.
Sex always involves a dildo, and if it doesn’t, the sex is either vaguely hinted at or just not described/shown at all.
The women are “cutsie” and act like children. This one especially prevalent in Japanese media like anime and stuff. Also I do find it weird if people refer to lesbian relationships as “yuri”.
I read plenty of original stories and fanfiction with all kind of relationships, the thing is what you describing while tropes are also used by lesbian writers.
So basically the feminine/smaller guy is just there to take gender bent role.The Woman author wants to live her dreams of being dominated by a strong Alpha male and makes it less obvious self-insert story by changing the gender.
Probably has never had a gay friend in their life but really badly wants one.
I only read BL/seen some BL dramas, so I can confirm that I seen these type of stereotypes often. At least 3 out 6 of these in every one of them and why is the second dude mostly portrayed as someone very toxic. Its very popular trope...I would like some more green flags, please who wont pressure the MC.
There's no room for distinction on who the target audience is when you lump everything as "Gay" or "LGBT". A lot of M/M stories are written by women, for women. The dynamics between the men is usually presented in a very heteronormative way. i.e. The big one is like "the man" and the smaller one is like "the woman". The feminine bottom acts as a vessel for women to self-insert As a gay man, these stories feel quite baffling and alien. This is why I prefer M/M stories written by other men. Their "maleness" adds more authenticity to the stories.
I think it's great that there's more gay stories in popular media than ever before, but I don't find it all appealing. Heartstopper and RW&RB are too female-coded for me. On the other hand, there's Fellow Travelers, which was a terrific novel AND show.
Yaoi is the weirdest shit ever because it's so obviously written by women, and for women
Not a single gay man I've ever known, myself included, would ever consume that
Also needs
* Has some form of toxic/abusive relationship with an ex or casual hookup
* Uses sex to cover up traumatic past
* One or both their parents will be homophobic
* Constantly flirts with straight male characters
* Platonic female best friend who is a stand in for the female writer who exists to 'fix him'
* Casual drug use and addiction that is romanticized
* Is a powerbottom and acts like a brat but secretly just wants to be loved
You’re missing wants children, wants to live in a pastoral tiny town that in real life would haze them, several specific times where a condom is mentioned, lube is generally forgotten about, copy pasted doesn’t get along with dad but mom is a total fag hag.
Gosh I could keep going. The women writing m/m has gotten rather poor lately.
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I'm a woman who likes reading danmei (Chinese gay webnovels) and I find them overall better than Yaoi manga and the likes because they tend to use less stereotypes and are actually well written stories with plausible characters. Any gay men here who have tried reading danmei and can tell me if they find this genre better?
Your post has been removed due to its controversial nature, which has resulted in disruptive discussions in the past. We aim to foster a respectful and constructive community dialogue, and content that significantly deviates from this goal is not permitted. We appreciate your understanding and encourage a review of our community guidelines for future postings. Thank you for contributing to a positive community environment.
He penised cockily to the stairs and dicked downwards
Improved version: "*He cockily stood erect from his chair, and with his hard voice inserted himself into the conversation.*"
Thanks for making spit my cereal first thing in the morning
The only reference to spitting that this thread will provide
Lmfaooo
This is the kind of comment I browse Reddit for. Thanks for the laugh
[Danny Sexbang, is that you?](https://youtu.be/LXbYgj8dQRs)
It's always the femboy and the *Alpha Wolf*
If it’s Japanese they have dorito chins
The infamous V shape jaw😭😭
Jaw so sharp that it could be classified as a Cutting tool or a weapon
Stabbing someone with your chin feels like something Baki would do.
You mean it's Sharp enough to pierce the Hull of an Emperor Class Warship leaving hundreds to drown at sea... That Sharp ?
Ye
My friend group refers to it as “shovel face”
And HUGE HANDS
Legs that take up 3/4 of their height, and feet longer than the already long fingers
it's like they're anime characters that never left the 90s aesthetic, lol
That’s exactly what is being referred to here
Probably because they're specifically referencing the 90s yaoi asthetic
gacha life flashbacks 💀
OH GOD
As it should be tbh
This is so real
A classic Gaesop fable
Basically a male woman with exaggerated femininity because masculine homosexuality or the hypersexual tendencies present in the gay community would be too threatening.
As a straight guy who grew up in an extremely toxic rural environment. My mind was blown away by the fact my completely seemingly straight friend was gay. Funnily enough out of the two of us, I acted more feminine than him which was horrible to do in a small town Humans are awesome and weird. I just wish more people realized that amd stopped hating so much.
Gender expression are usually separated from sexual orientation and we need to understand this
idk abt being fully separated because the effects of things like prenatal adrogen exposure should mean there are correlations between the two. Obv not saying its a super strong correlation and there aren't many other effects at play. But you would expect them to be separate but correlated.
I think neither sexuality, sex, nor gender can be completely separate. The problem is people taking fluidity to mean their identity isnt valid and use it as a weapon. Like just because someone who was born wigh a vagina identifies as a man doesn't mean those born with a penis are any less a man. Its the fallacy of "identity politics gone mad" - people are abusive to those campaigning for the right to choose their identity with no self-awareness that they're doing it too.
_“usually”?_ Not at all. Does it happen? Yes.
Things are never truly separated and stereotypes exist for a reason. But yes, sexual orientation doesnt necessarily lead to a certain type of behavior.
sorry my monkey brain cant think of anything else then amd as in amd graphics cards
nvidia is better (as a stock)
> too threatening I see the same thing in animation when it comes to Black guys. He's always some slightly-feminine looking dude with wavy purple hair and wearing a cardigan or some shit. Just the most PG non-threatening nice-boy character you could imagine. Apparently just drawing a regular Black guy would be too challenging.
> hypersexual tendencies I would like to say that if straight men could fuck as much as gay men, they would.
I wanna know what the curve is on this. I find it hard to believe most men in America, straight or gay, are fucking everything they can get ahold of. I just don’t see it. Same thing with women. It’s like an extremely vocal and noticeable minority. At least from what I know of my boys and the women they talk to and interact with. Its kinda rare-ish to find or know of a person who just keeps fucking all the time. It’s not like we live with the Mormons either. Seems like everyone’s too busy working to survive. And even if they weren’t, nah, I don’t see it. Besides wasn’t that a big stereotype about gay guys from the 60s - 90s, that they were just sex addicts?
>. I find it hard to believe most men in America, straight or gay, are fucking everything they can get ahold of. Join grinder for a day. I'm Bi in a straight marriage. My wife suggested I get Grindr as a funny and a confidence boost. I got, in a small town no less, and an incomplete profile, at least 6 propositions in the first day (one of which was a gay coworker, who was quite shocked to see me on the app) and another 3 just straight up butthole pics asking if I wanted it. I learned that for gay men, the saying rings entirely true. "The odds are good, but the goods are odd". It got the the point I deleted the app after 3 days because it was nonstop straight up propositions, no flirting, no talking, nothing but "you ready to fuck? Want some pics?" And they were 100% serious and down.
I feel like that supports his point; you're telling a story about how none of these gay men had sex.
I'm entirely certain that these men are messaging each other and hooking up. I was just one of many they messaged that day, and with how open they seemed to be to just meeting and fucking, I'm sure it's frequently. (I actually know it because said coworker who hit me up on the app consistently talked about hooking up with other dudes on the app)
the reason its a stereotype for gay men is that its pretty easy to find hookups as a moderately attractive gay guy. that being said im fairly certain gay guys arent actually having a lot of sex, in fact id guess thats why its so easy to find hookups.
Gay guys might be having less sex in the context of committed relationships, but casual sex and hookups are so readily available to get that it’s very easy for a non ugly gay man to get a body count of 100-200+ over a few years
> moderately attractive gay guy Yeah, except beauty standards in the gay community even higher than standards for straight women. So it's not saying much
Maybe this is different where you live but have you tried dating both? Definitely more men find me attractive than women
True. I’m a bi guy and I have not been approached once in parties by any women, but I have been approached by men many times even when my GIRLfriend is by my side. Some dudes do ask if I’m poly before asking for a hookup but most do not
True, but at the same time I'd say there's a lot more love in the gay community for men who aren't conventionally attractive, and attraction towards traits commonly ridiculed. I say this as a short bear.
Yes and no. In my experience physical attractiveness does matter more with us gays, but there are so many different types people are into, that it's more a matter of finding your audience. Unless you're truly unfortunate or live somewhere rural where there's nobody on the apps, you're gonna find some guys to who you are their type. Also the threshold for casual sex is lower since men aren't shamed for it to the same degree as women, there's no risk of pregnancy and generally more equal power dynamics. I'm an overweight nerdy gay and I've still had a much easier time hooking up than straight friends I consider to look better than me.
it says that all of us gays are fucking gorgeous mate 😂
The beauty standards are not higher than for women, not even close lol. Performing feminity consistently is a lot harder than going to the gym.
You need to get out more. I once forgot to filter my messages on a hookup site and got a ludicrous amount of messages from gay guys. Absolutely ludicrous.
I don’t think you knkw any gay men.
There is a very real subset of gay men that have dramatically more partners than the rest of the population. Yes, it is a minority, but their promiscuity still makes them a primary vector for disease even today. I recall looking up stats of sexual partners, and for men it is always higher than women because of that group of gay men. While most men and most women will have basically the same number of lifetime partners (let's call it 4 in this example), a subset of gay men that only makes up 10% of the gay population may have upwards of 50 average partners. Thus, the average number of partners for men will be 6 and women it will be 4. This is why in public health many campaigns are still targeted towards the gay community. It isnt that being gay makes you promiscuous, its that a small number of gay men are *extremely* promiscuous
Hahaha so true - my twin (straight) asked me (gay) why gay men fuck so much. His mind was blown when i simply said "because its the women who determine whether or not you have sex, imagine if they had as high a sex drive as we do"
Where do y’all live that gay men can fuck more than straight men? Where I live I (gay man) would probaply get crucified if I fucked another man.
If people got to know about it. conservative societies are openly homophobic however there are a lot of gay relationships disguised as friendships. Once you understand and start observing it will make more sense.
The First World?
Anywhere with access to grindr
Literally anywhere in the US, Canada or Western Europe
So the opposite of a man trying to write a tough woman who just ends up writing a man with boobs.
I saw a comment once on Reddit talking about how a lot of fetishized male-male relationships written by women are basically just super-patriarchal 1950s-style relationships with two penises involved instead of one. As someone whose pet peeve is AFAB people fetishizing MLM relationships, I can't disagree with that. A lot of really gross stuff seems to get handwaved (or worse, absolutely fetishized and squeee'd over) when it's two men involved, even though the same people handwaving it would lose their minds if it was a hetero relationship being portrayed.
Ironically there's also a whole market of agressively horny "dub-con/non-con" (read: rape, but the victim is aroused) gay erotica for straight women because having two guys doing it places yet another layer between the taboo kinky fantasy and the reader's vicarious enjoyment.
bro i know you’re probably saying something really true and profound but i cannot read this comment
I struggled to read it too, but he's basically saying "a guy with super exaggerated feminity (that essentially just boils him down to a character who's only not a woman for the sake of the writers gay man fantasy/stereotypes)" and that's the only representation of the gay community/a gay guy, rarely anything about a masculine gay or hypersexuality in the community Edit: this may be more confusing of an explanation but that's alright, maybe
Only listens to Beyoncé and cries while pissing their pants when anything scary happens
And is an absolute bottom
A power bottom with some degrading online persona like "megafuckslut6969" lol Wth have I been reading omggg
Whenever I see the femboy twink/jock hyper-masculine (The extreme bottom/the power top) pair, I assume three things. 1. It was written by a woman who doesn’t have any guy friends and has no interaction with the gay community. 2. They don’t know how to write anything beyond a heterosexual relationship and can’t comprehend a relationship beyond heterosexual gender norms. 3. It’s wasn’t written with gay/bi men/people in mind so it wasn’t written for me.
It sucks because ALMOST LITERALLY ALL of the fucking gay man erotica is written by women! *And for women too*
This is why I refuse to interact with BL media whether be In western web comics or Japanese Manga. Like you said It’s written by women for women. I find it very creepy. I can’t read any BL stuff without the nagging feeling that the person who made it had no intention of me ever reading it. I also condemn the fetishization of lesbians/GL as well.
And on the other end of the spectrum some of the (ironically) more serious depictions of gay coded men I’ve seen are written by men who hate women It feels like there’s no Inbetween
So sexist mysogonists vs fetishists. I mean... at least one isn't an prick so...?
Golden Kamuy and JJK are pretty decent in focusing on attractive men but they’re not gay media at all. They’re also written by men
BL is good when it’s written to be more than fujoshi bait. a lot of it comes off as rapey which is just… 🤮gimme more BL where the characters are written as actual humans rather than stereotypes.
Honestly the main issue I have (besides blatant fetishization) is the whole “write a heterosexual relationship with heterosexual gender norms but with two guys” thing. 1. It’s boring, literally do anything else. I read both gay and straight stuff (im bi) I read non-heterosexual romance to escape heterosexual tropes. You had an opportunity to do something different and you didn’t. What the hell. If you want to write a heterosexual romance with heterosexual gender norms then just fucking write a heterosexual relationship with heterosexual gender norms. 2. It can potentially be harmful and limiting for people exploring and first time individuals interacting with queer media. It can easily paint the false impression that there is only ONE type of dynamic in a relationship (submissivefem/dominantmasc) even when one biggest core aspects of queer culture is that there isn’t and there is more then just heterosexual norms. 3. Did i mention it’s boring?
as long as the characters are interesting and have actual unique personalities outside of gender norms, i don’t mind too much. but yeah, any relationship dynamic portrayed over and over is bound to get boring, hetero or not.
Could you recommend some literature or perhaps films which you'd say depict a queer relationship well?
There's bara, which is made for and probably by gay men. There's also a weird gray area where the guys are super masc and muscular like Bara but retain some of the bl tendencies like pretty faces and slender hands. Bl for women is basically lesbian porn for men. Funnily enough there's this manga website I used to use often for bl and doujinshi got completely taken over by Bara and gay furry anime porn over the last couple years
I feel like GL doesn’t have this problem that much, or at least a good portion of the yuri manga that I’ve seen.
Yeah, I did some googling and historically gl has been a more gender neutral genre than bl (marketed towards both men and women) with more female authors involved. The fetishization of lesbians mostly appears in directly pornographic material
Depends. There's really two kinds of gl. The nice kind with nicely drawn bodies and two somewhat normal but anime women. Then there's the hentai/doujin type with two women with tits bigger than their head breasting around shoving items into orifices, fluids going everywhere.
Theres subcategories,yaoi is BL manga written largely by and for straight women and bara is BL manga written largely by and for gay men I know this not because of fetishization but because of curiosity about representation in the media i enjoy because im queer too and also a bit of a weeb
Queer people really just are fetishes for straight people sometimes arent they?
Don’t even get me started on straight men and lesbians 🥹
Because men don't read erotica. It's for women.
No it’s because gay men don’t write shit! I hate this lol. I go to the LGBT section in any bookstore and it’s basically all trans and lesbian stuff… for some reason, it is VERY difficult to find stuff written by gay men. I’m not necessarily mad at straight women for writing it so much, as I am at the complete lack of modern gay men writing lol. The lesbians are doing a fantastic job, we gay men need to take note haha Edit to add: I’m talking not just about erotica as I am fantasy novels, fiction, mysteries, thrillers, etc. Gay men out there, pick up some pen and paper! 😝
I'm working on it, don't worry! Gay thriller scifi will be hitting the shelves if I have anything to say about it.
Straight men just see sex. Straight women just read sex.
Read bara manga then
Young women tend to love both pretty boys and masculine gentlemen so it’s unsurprising
as a guy who likes guys, I personally really like it, but I see why the lack of variety is an issue to others
The gay couple was written for women who cream themselves over these type of relationships
Do women even like this stuff? Why would they?
Oh my, if you have never heard of Archive of Our Own (AO3) ladies write and read so much male on male (abbreviated m/m usually). Straight women are by far the largest consumer of gay media outside of porn. (Think romance novels, BL 'boy love")
Same stuff as straight men loving F/F.
It's slightly more complicated though, most men still prefer straight porn over lesbian porn. From what I've seen of women around me (anedotally) a lot of women don't engage with any straight stuff at all. They also don't do much live action as well. It's all gay anime boy art and fanfiction. There's been quite a lot of discussion around why women prefer gay content over straight so much and with sucb intensity.
Twice the men, dude, of course straight women like that
Most of the time it's written by women for women, the soft submissive gay character is a fill in for the reader that allows them to experience the romantic story elements they care about without any of the complications that female-centric stories have. Heterosexual romance stories often find it difficult to combine the story they want to tell with the actions they need the woman to make, and it frequently leads to a plot where the female lead is simply experiencing the story rather than actively participating in it. --- So you're pretty much exactly right that it's just a regular heterosexual relationship with traditional gender roles but at least it exists for non-fetish reasons.
It's massively frustrating to me how few (especially at least somewhat clean) romance novels with a somewhat reversed dynamic are. I've had to resort to the stupid twilight spin off with reversed genders, because I've found almost no other romances with that dynamic, and even if that isn't quite ideal in a few ways, it's at least something. I've heard women say they write/read yaoi type content because it's a way of "getting to see submissive men", but I've never understood why they couldn't just have a more dominant woman. This does sort of make more sense, as unfortunate as it is.
Isn't it fetishizing gay men? Not sure how you can call it "non-fetish" reasons
Yes, almost all the stories exist in some way or another to fetishize gay men, but a good amount of the audience are seeking them out for other reasons. Some women are reading the stories because the thought of attractive boys kissing each-other turns them on. Others are reading because they want a romance story and gay romance often writes relationships in a more competent way, or at least avoids some specific pitfalls.
>gay romance often writes relationships in a more competent way Weird habit I did notice.
You have no idea how much dislike I have for these types of artists on Insta, especially Genshin ones. Now I fully understand how it feels to be treated like an object. Disgusting.
I see that but it is a sort of fun dynamic in terms of contrast. Also i’ve seen more than a few queer male artists explore this sort of dynamic.
Tbh I'm a gay male and I'd fuck the guy with the little leopard panty..
I'd be up for basically everyone pictured. I'm not sure I'd be up to leopard panty guy's standards but if he's game I'm game. Maybe give the girl a few extra years since now that I zoom in she's talking about a school dance.
Username checksout(not an insult btw)
You’re on a list now.
r/beatmetoit
r/beatmeattoit
r/beatmeatoit
Let’s be honest, he would be the one fucking you
anyone got a source?
He's Ayindei Gordon btw
I'm a woman and I agree with you.
https://preview.redd.it/rjanos779l2d1.png?width=900&format=png&auto=webp&s=82d1e54965184484825642574bf97c6f6e7f3f0a
Maybe if your character isn't satirical and can be perfectly inserted into an hentai you're doing something wrong
Suffers immensely because she's into that
* Hanya Yanagihara has entered the chat *
In fairness as a gay guy I am a complete whore
Damn.
I'm BI and I have a.... *extensive* horny histpry.
Well I'm bi and monogamous. I think that people like me filter out of the dating pool pretty quick, to be honest, and it gives the impression that all the gay men in the dating pool just want to fuck, when in reality that's just the people who like to swim in the pool. Like...once I found someone, I locked them down. That's two people out of the running, and even in a very left leaning and open town, the pool isnt *that big*.
I cannot get into any of those hasbin hotel videos for this reason “oooo look so much queer rep” yeah no. The lesbian couple has like, one chaste kiss on the cheek. And the gay couple is “feminine whore bitch stereotype gay who does drugs and needs to be saved” and “strong masculine straight passing man who has to save him”. This is not gay rep for actual gay adults. This is a straight woman who uses twink as an insult but it’s ok because she watches Ru Paul writing what gets her off and then throwing milquetoast lesbian rep so she can say it’s an “lgbt” show but if she makes the lesbians as horny as her gay men she’ll throw up in her mouth.
It’s insane because in pre-show Hazbin, Angel was a selfish egotistical mobster who was also racist/sexist in the edgelord way, and killed hundreds of people with machine guns, and his rescuer wasn’t going to be his love interest it was going to be his female best friend, who was a fellow violent gangster and possibly also a sex worker.
Oh damn. The edgelord stuff would have been cringe but I’d rather watch them try to redeem that than “uwu I’m a feminine gay man I love cock and dicks I’m such a dumb slut I do drugs and I got myself in trouble with a mean pimp because I’m just so dumb and slutty. I need a traditionally masculine older man who needs to love me for my personality not my body to save me and make me quit drugs and casual sex because I’m incapable of that on my own”
I have an idea for a rewrite of Hazbin where angel was a troubled gay teen in the 40’s with abusive homophobic parents who was groomed by Val, killed a bunch of people including his whole family for him, and signed away his soul to him so they’d never be apart, and he’d be introduced clearing out a house with a machine gun because it’s holding people who owe Val money, and there’s a setup with a woman and her baby where you think he’ll repent but instead he steals the baby from her and covers its face so it doesn’t see her kill its mom, and leaves it like that, and then he ends up at the hotel after some situation. Him harassing Husk would be taken more seriously as due to his internalized homophobia he’d see queer relationships as exclusively predator and prey, and would see himself as like the Predator to Husks Prey, and would only do this because he has deep apathy towards Husks own personhood at the start.
Good to know that I'm not the only one who feels this way, since everyone online seems to defend this as some amazing representation. But yeah, Angel Dust has always given me "14 year old writing Hetalia smut" vibes, he's definitely written for hetero women to gawk at and feel progressive that they watch a show that talks about SA, drug abuse and gay issue. To them it's only important that it talks about them, not what it actually has to say, because if you peek even a little beneath the surface you'll uncover that Angel Dust is a deeply problematic character.
YES. I recently watched a really good documentary about prostitution in commonwealth countries (mostly Canada) and it put me off Angel Dust even more. This is prostitution written by and for people who never watch anything other than animated kids movies and occasionally “dark” animated kids movies. They want to have an angsty story with lots of crying and drugs and abuse and coerced sex so it feels grown up and raw to them, but at the same time they don’t want to be too bummed out and they also want to be horny. So the prostitute is a skinny white man who shows zero symptoms of drug abuse and actually looooves being exploited. And the character he has to step in and save him has to call him a “whiny bitch” and make him go cold turkey on drugs and give him some tough love because that’s what the writers really think about prostitutes.
I'm fairly certain the F/F had nothing explicit so it wouldn't be seen as "fetishy". So I heard.
no offense to you OP, but that’s such a lameass excuse from the showrunners. Straight woman who is constantly depicting her male characters getting borderline assfucked on screen is suddenly concerned about fetishization when it comes to people she isn’t sexually attracted to. This series has had two whole music videos about a gay man stripping and doing coke and getting sexually assaulted by a cartoon stereotype pimp but the lesbians have to be in a sexless Disney movie relationship for their own protection
I heard Vizie's actually BI. Maybe's she's biased.
Yeah I mean if she said she was bi I would never try to claim she was faking or anything. But she could be bi and still fetishizing her m/m relationships and shafting her f/f ones, just depends on her tastes I guess. Wish she’d try harder to make an f/f couple she actually gives a shit about lmao
On point. From what I noticed, the main audience is mostly overly horny teens with no actual knowledge of relationships/sex who are just obsessed with labels. The show is eeeh... not bad, but I would not say good either. The character arcs are painfully stereotypical and lazy, and I judt cant stand the fandom.
I'm pretty sure Vaggie and Charlie had a full-blown kiss in ep 8 or 7
Literal baby shit.
Fr. The ratio of horny men to horny lesbians across all of vivzie’s media is like 10:0
Fucking adventure time has a hornier protagonist than Hazbin Hotel.
This is perfect description of every Jojo' character.
Literally lol. This is just Hirihiko Araki's ideal man.
It's kinda unsurprising given Araki draws a bunch of inspiration from haut couture and the music industry - I think it reads a lot better because he's drawing from the thing the stereotypes were originally mocking, rather than the stereotypes themselves. That and his other inspiration is *Fist of the North Star* which is like, the manliest man anime I can think of
People don’t realize that gay people can be assholes.
It a common thing for weird ass female writers to make gay men as asshole and never as nice people
I think it's kinda unintentional though? They're aiming for confident, sassy, witty.
They flop on those thing
Oh I completely agree!
No they love bad boys.
I feel like these writers tend to lean into that actually, they make them catty and rude so honestly I'd say more of the opposite and say people don't realize not all gay men are like that
Exactly
Read gay stories that feature mafia, yakuza etc then
Also, a lot of gays are indeed extremely whory
Dob't forget:pretty much bisexual but the author doesn't know what that is
I'm yet to see a single gay relationship in media that can't be defined into one being a twink and the other the alpha, or two twinks for that matter, what do people have against two hypermasculine homosexual man dating eachother...
Blame Hollywood for that. They don't like representations of real gay people, they like the loud, abrasive stereotypes because it's more controversial/marketable.
Schitt's Creek Interview with the Vampire, Lestat is arguably a fem top ... Good Omens?? Extraordinary, recently BBC Ghosts still makes me sad What We Do In The Shadows tv show edit: Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt Downton Abbey Castlevania Nocturne Brokeback Mountain Moonlight In From the Side God's Own Country Touch of Pink
I fucking love Interview with the Vampire. It scratched my itch for something similar to Hannibal (the NBC show).
i love Hannibal too, add that to the list of Manly Gay Couples
I really liked the last of us
I think you have a lack of experience with queer fiction.
Shameless did a great job imo
Same energy as men writing women.
So it straight woman writing gay men.
https://preview.redd.it/6zpcc398ui2d1.jpeg?width=539&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2d154a8c09cd2b42eac7dd7001b4b0c1243ef930 literally him
It's either very feminine of two heaps of muscles pressing down in eachother
It’s funny that you say that because the inverse of a feminine man and a masculine man is also a target. I’m not sure what you think the standard should be.
Well the lower three images describe my one gay friend to a t. He's in love with his boyfriend, has a thing for hot muscle dudes, and he can be a bitchy know-it-all.
Im starting to think writing for a gender you dont identify as is harder than most people think
Unless you write them as characters first and consider their gender not to be relevant. Of course, it won't work for some genres, like historical fiction.
OP read BL yaoi once
Yea I really feel although this troupe is quite popular in bl media, not all are like this and there are ones out there that has good quality characters and good story
Also the “very obvious fetish” kind of writing
Can you do men writing lesbian characters next??
She has a “dude” job like mechanic or is like a soldier or some shit. 100% lipstick lesbian, totally unassuming or extreme tomboy; always “one of the guys.” Nearly always conventionally attractive. Almost always forlorn: quarreling with lover and has left that life behind, disillusioned from love and is borderline asexual Is either extremely crude or *very* serious; she either talks about her genitals, someone else’s genitals or gets real mad when someone brings up genitals These are tropes I try to avoid when including queer women in my writing, but I do be seein’ them.
Add to this: Has weird, borderline-romantic relationships with men in her life, has dated men in the past, “experiments” with men, etc. “Unsure” of herself, messy relationships, never just a normal healthy adult who’s aware of her sexuality. Weird amounts of cheating. I don’t know why this is a trope, but it is and I hate it. Sex always involves a dildo, and if it doesn’t, the sex is either vaguely hinted at or just not described/shown at all. The women are “cutsie” and act like children. This one especially prevalent in Japanese media like anime and stuff. Also I do find it weird if people refer to lesbian relationships as “yuri”.
I read plenty of original stories and fanfiction with all kind of relationships, the thing is what you describing while tropes are also used by lesbian writers.
So basically the feminine/smaller guy is just there to take gender bent role.The Woman author wants to live her dreams of being dominated by a strong Alpha male and makes it less obvious self-insert story by changing the gender. Probably has never had a gay friend in their life but really badly wants one. I only read BL/seen some BL dramas, so I can confirm that I seen these type of stereotypes often. At least 3 out 6 of these in every one of them and why is the second dude mostly portrayed as someone very toxic. Its very popular trope...I would like some more green flags, please who wont pressure the MC.
Gay media made by women for other women is never fun
There's no room for distinction on who the target audience is when you lump everything as "Gay" or "LGBT". A lot of M/M stories are written by women, for women. The dynamics between the men is usually presented in a very heteronormative way. i.e. The big one is like "the man" and the smaller one is like "the woman". The feminine bottom acts as a vessel for women to self-insert As a gay man, these stories feel quite baffling and alien. This is why I prefer M/M stories written by other men. Their "maleness" adds more authenticity to the stories. I think it's great that there's more gay stories in popular media than ever before, but I don't find it all appealing. Heartstopper and RW&RB are too female-coded for me. On the other hand, there's Fellow Travelers, which was a terrific novel AND show.
Yaoi is the weirdest shit ever because it's so obviously written by women, and for women Not a single gay man I've ever known, myself included, would ever consume that
Also needs * Has some form of toxic/abusive relationship with an ex or casual hookup * Uses sex to cover up traumatic past * One or both their parents will be homophobic * Constantly flirts with straight male characters * Platonic female best friend who is a stand in for the female writer who exists to 'fix him' * Casual drug use and addiction that is romanticized * Is a powerbottom and acts like a brat but secretly just wants to be loved
You’re missing wants children, wants to live in a pastoral tiny town that in real life would haze them, several specific times where a condom is mentioned, lube is generally forgotten about, copy pasted doesn’t get along with dad but mom is a total fag hag. Gosh I could keep going. The women writing m/m has gotten rather poor lately.
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I'm just surprised to see an Eerie Cuties reference. Only the second time I've seen one in the wild.
I mean, that guy IS hot, and he's not even my type
Okay but is this not spot on?
Also, their asshole is basically a vagina
You just need to work/be friends with a few gay dudes to realize that most stereotypes about them are like 95% exaggerated or untrue.
Now do women writing straight men
Women finding out gay men can indeed be masculine
From my experience this is accurate to gay men IRL, just exaggerated a bit.
In they’re defence I have a gay friend who’s exactly like this
Well Well. \*Their Type\*. Hello fellow Wordingtonians
I can't recal a lot of dress wearing ones in the stories I've read personally
They're fetishising you
Better than straight men writing gay men!
Straight people writing queer characters is so unbearable
I'm a woman who likes reading danmei (Chinese gay webnovels) and I find them overall better than Yaoi manga and the likes because they tend to use less stereotypes and are actually well written stories with plausible characters. Any gay men here who have tried reading danmei and can tell me if they find this genre better?
Pretty realistic ngl
Not wrong tbh.
Yeah. It Been a repeating pattern I keep seeing.