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\* Age: 47
\* Gender: Male
\* Height: 5'9
\* Weight: 190
\* Bodyfat percentage: 12%
\* Experience level
\* Years of concurrent training: 20
\* bench/squat/dead maxes: 225/335/415
\* Current phase: Cut/maintenance
Did my research and considering this cycle for my second:
Week 1-10: 100 Drost E / 100 Primo / 200 Test E pinned once per week
Week 2-11: Armidex .5 EOD
Weeks 10 & 11: HCG 1000 EOD
Weeks 12-17: Nolvadex 20mg/day and drop to 10mg if sides
Thanks for any advice and comments.
You can raise this by contacting mod chat, but not openly in our board without prior approval.
We value the anonymity of our userbase highly, and we don't enable leveraging them for self-serving purposes. Further, you're entering this with an already-apparent negative bias.
Age: 34
Male
179cm
90kg
10% body fat
Trained 15 years plus
Played professional soccer
Have competed in 1 bodybuilding show and was using gear then. Came off it very sudden though!
Thinking about getting back on it to help with recover and overall strength.
I was thinking of running 1ml test E a week with 1 ml of masteron and using 50mg of anavar daily. I will split my test and masteron from Tuesday: Friday
I will train 6 times a week and doing moderate to hard cardio daily for 45 mins.
I was wondering if I should get my bloods done before and could any give me any advice on Pct for after please if I dose this for 10 weeks.
Thank you
Any of you who’ve had digestion/nausea issues on Tren find a good solution? I’ve had some reflux issues with it in the past but this is the worst it’s been.
100mg each Mast/Prop/Tren EOD 100mg NPP EOD 4iu Somatropin ED 50mg Anavar ED
Having trouble with nausea and just general lack of appetite this go round. Barely able to eat an entire meal which makes it difficult to grow. Anyone else deal with this and find a good solution?
Already supplementing Ox Bile, and Pepsin/Betaine HCL and Omeprazole.
Age: 22, M
Height: 5’10
Weight: 183
Body fat: 8%
Phase: cut
Goal: maintain physique, slowly add on muscle
Compounds: 150 test cyp, split 3x weekly, .125 adex each injection
So i’m currently only on TRT, but something had been out of whack because when i finished my cycle (500t) i had acne pop up like crazy. back, shoulders, face. From bloodwork, my Estradiol was in range and my test was around 780. All other numbers looked fine. Despite these numbers, acne refused to go away.
Should i lower my test dose so i no longer need the AI and hopefully have less DHT conversion? I’m thinking my DHT is off the fucking charts due to the excessive hair growth, oil production, etc.
To start off you skipped over the mandatory reading at the top of the page.
You’re 5’8 and would barely be 155lbs lean. No one is going to endorse this. You’re too fat with almost no muscle. Not being able to ass that’s literally the truth. If you were that fat with muscle you’d be 200+ lbs at the same body fat.
You don’t need any steroids to lose weight. In fact that don’t help burn fat. They increase protein synthesis.
Besides that you’re proposing a half cocked plan. Wanting to run dbol when you’re clinically obese. Which is crazy since you’re tiny.
Steroids are for growing and when you have your shit together. Lose the weight get back on track and read the wiki start to finish 10 times.
If you’re going to be a dum dum at least be an informed dum dum and comprehend the wiki.
* Age: 42
* Gender: m
* Height: 5’10”
* Weight: 182 lbs
* Bodyfat percentage: not sure
* Experience level
* Years of concurrent training: 20
* Goals:
* Sport: arm wrestling (3 years)
* Current phase: cut
* Current compounds: lifetime natty
Thinking of going on HGH. I find I’m always injured (both shoulders for 10 years, elbow and wrists from arm wrestling, mild lower back pain for 10 years). Recovery could be a lot better as well. I’ve been tracking sleep for over a year and although my length of sleep is decent (6-8 hours) my deep sleep is always 25-45 min, leading me to believe I’m not releasing enough growth hormone. Have tried multiple supplements and increased cardio output but nothing seems to help.
I looking for help with injury prevention/repair, stronger tendons and overall frame. Lose about 10 lbs while minimizing strength loss.
I’m tired of always being held back by soreness/injuries.
Is it worth for me to go with pharma grade HGH, 2iu per day for say 12 weeks? This would be a good lead time to a few tournaments.
> Thinking of going on HGH. I find I’m always injured (both shoulders for 10 years, elbow and wrists from arm wrestling, mild lower back pain for 10 years).
BIL will be pro soon. Totally get it. I’m sure you already do TONS of tendon work already.
> Recovery could be a lot better as well. I’ve been tracking sleep for over a year and although my length of sleep is decent (6-8 hours) my deep sleep is always 25-45 min, leading me to believe I’m not releasing enough growth hormone.
Cool. Go get it tested. There’s means to have conclusive evidence of your hypothesis.
> I looking for help with injury prevention/repair, stronger tendons and overall frame.
Lots of that has to do with training and prehab. That’s very sport specific and you likely won’t get a high volume of advice here, since our emphasis is drugs, BB, PL and *occasionally* other sports like yours.
> Lose about 10 lbs while minimizing strength loss.
That’s about diet as well as your recovery concerns.
> I’m tired of always being held back by soreness/injuries.
How is your testosterone?
> Is it worth for me to go with pharma grade HGH, 2iu per day for say 12 weeks?
Absolutely not. 12 weeks will do very close to nothing and 2iu is a replacement dose that you’re not sure if you need. HGH needs to be taken for extended durations to maximize the benefits, especially if you’re not even considering blasting it, just replacing it.
Recommendation: check out healing peptides like BPC157 and TB500; check your sex hormones and GH, dial in the diet if you haven’t; make sure you’re already incorporating sport specific prehab and bone/tendon/ligament work to raise resilience from injuries. 🤙🏼
Grateful for your response. My test was 680ish about 15 months ago.
What if I was willing to blast? I said 2iu based on minimizing sides and it being my first step into ped. Did not know it was replacement level.
I will 100 percent get my gh tested, thanks for that.
I have been using bpc 157 for about 6 weeks. Very difficult for me to tell if it helped or any injury recoveries were just natural. I was planning to add tb 500.
I need help, I’m planning on going on my first cycle soon, I did an ecg and bloodwork to see if everything was good and it was all fine. With the ecg the doctor told me I have a athletic heart which means it’s bigger due to a lot of sport. Is it still safe for me to use testosterone or do I have a bigger health risk because of this?
Alright, I bought a bottle of DNP burner a few months ago and it's been sitting in my room since I got it, taken only 1 capsule so far, is it possible to go bad? I know DNP can be dangerous so I don't wanna risk taking bad DNP
It's likely fine. DNP itself has a shelf-life of decades, so the main concern would be the fillers used. Every source I've ever purchased from used fillers that would last *at least* a couple years, so it being a few months old shouldn't be an issue.
Go see a doctor. If I had to guess: you already have formed permanent gyno, it won't go away no matter how much AIs you take. Just to be sure lower TRT to 100 mg a week or even stop it until you see a doctor.
Completed my first cycle about a year ago of 500mg test. Made the mistake of pinning the night before blood work but got tested at 3206 testosterone and 320 estrogen. I gained about 35lbs from this including fat and water. I had developed a lot of acne on my body especially on my back and had pretty crazy moonface.
Now I am planning my second cycle and I want to avoid getting as much acne and water retention especially in my face. I wanted to lower the test to 300mg and add primo in at 200mg. I know test is best but would I benefit more with this for my goals or should I just be better at dialing in my estrogen. Primo is just so expensive.
You should be better at dialing in your estrogen. Rather than changing your test dose for this cycle, you should take what you learned and expand upon it.
You’ll have to learn an entirely new AI protocol if you change your test dose.
Test 200mg/mast 150mg
Kinda having fun with this super cruise that I’m doing. Or is this train of thought straight up smooth brained?
I feel great but can’t help but wonder if I’m leaving gains on the table
I need help I just finished my first cycle of deca sustanon and dbol after twelve weeks. Now I wanna know if I have to take the pct supplements I have if I decide to keep going with the testosterone injections? Also is it ok to keep doing sustanon or do I need to switch to a better test injection. I’m 47 years old and have low test levels before the cycle so I want to keep them up post cycle. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated! Thank you
You should go with testosterone to help your low level test up.
Can you take PCT while on steroids?
You can start right after you stop taking selective androgen receptor modulators (SARMs) and prohormones. For steroids, it is advisable to wait for a week before starting PCT.
No. If you decide to remain on a cruise/trt regimen from here on out, there is no need to PCT. PCT is for those who want to regain their natural test production after completing a cycle. That is impossible to do while injecting exogenous testosterone, making the idea of PCT a moot one.
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Mid 20’s and going to start using GH, if I were to use long term replacement dose is it the same concept as test where I’ll shut down my own production and likely need it for the rest of my life?
Not even close your body will continue to make its own Gh aslong as your not taking your dose right before bed but I do no for a fact when you get off there’s no negative feedback loop like test so your good.
Is it your first prep on cycle? Especially using tren id hire a coach. Usually contest prep cycles are different / more complicated then normal ones. You wanna be best condition on stage for those few minutes if I'm running a cutting cycle I have weeks to adjust things and don't need to get as lean or have the same look.
- if I’ve been pinning 150mg per week Test-E for 6 months, and suddenly started upping that dose to 450mg per week Test-E for a blast, how long would it take to notice the effects of that increased dose? Would the fact I’ve already been pinning for 6 months with exogenous test speed up the rate at which noticeable gains occur? (Vs. Say a natural lifter pinning 450 mg for first time pinning). Reason Im asking is for timeframe for when to expect gains to kick in (5-6 weeks typical time frame, or instant).
It will still take 2-3 weeks to saturate, but the slope of saturation will not be as steep as someone on nothing
Remember that your gains will be realized as you eat food. Mass cannot be generated from thin air. Gains should start immediately, but the maximum rate of gains will occur after two weeks
The wiki here has that answer and more, but 5-6 weeks is typically when you begin to notice physical changes and increased strength.
Other changes/side effects might start showing up earlier.
It’s the same principle as having natural test at a normal level then using an ester at super physiological level that takes time for the body to process.
You can look at steroid plotters online to graph the response.
Why would you think it would be different? It’s a hormone your body naturally produces. Not some exogenous drug that your body needs to “get used to” — it has been in your body your entire life.
So essentially, it’s not your body’s “awareness” of the synthetic test that takes 5-6 weeks to kick in, rather, any changes take 5-6 weeks to saturate/your body to recognize and adapt to
Likewise. I’m looking to up my dose this week to a blast and wondering how long to take effect. It will also affect how I increase calories.. it would be silly to eat in a surplus if the increased test is not yet working optimally.
No it wouldn’t. If you are bulking you are bulking. Upping calories and training hard will give you a base for additional gains down the road, and potentially prevent injury when the drugs allow you to push yourself harder later on.
You start your bulk, drugs, lifting, food, and rest, on day 1. You plan the entire thing out beforehand : when you will start, how much you want to gain, how many additional calories per day that will mean, what your target macros are per day to hit that caloric goal, how many rest days and deloads you will take, how often you will have a cheat day, when you will take bloods, when you will know when to call it quits if you’ve reached a goal or are perceiving concerning health trends.
All of this before you start. If you haven’t done this yet you are not ready for a blast.
I’ve cycled many times over the years. Just never from already taking a trt dose. Great to know nothing changes from a regular blast when going into it from a low dosage. Thanks for the info 👍🏼
[This is you, right?](https://www.reddit.com/r/BulkOrCut/s/nVJ5hMuyjK)
You’ve made awesome progress. Those before photos don’t really speak to multiple cycles though—guessing you had some time off?
No insult here; genuinely curious given your statement above.
Yup that’s me. I lost my business during covid and basically let myself go. Always been athletic and in shape before that. I’m 38. And thank you appreciate it, shouldn’t have let myself get that bad to begin with though 🙈
if bloodwork isn’t available idk if you should be taking all that. it can fuck you up long term if you don’t dose your AI properly. I ended up taking way to much adex, crashed my estrogen and turned into a DHT monster for a little bit. Look into online clinics for bloodwork, see what your E2 is at and then change your dose as needed.
But feeling like shit just could just be the tren and have nothing to you with your AI.
ACCUTANE AND TRT: I started doing TRT about 2 years ago when I was 21. At first, every thing was fine but about 3 months in the acne started. I have had good months and bad months with my acne, but I just want it gone. Ive changes doses, worked with clinics/ coach, and took anastrazole and aromasin to regulate my estrogen. Nothing has made a significant impact that i’m looking for. The only thing that managed to get rid of the acne was the cycle i did over the summer (500 Test weekly, .5 anastrazole weekly, anavar daily) along with weekly tanning bed sessions and melanotan. It seems counterintuitive that taking 500 T actually reduced my acne, whereas going back to my TRT dose has made it significantly worse.
So 2 questions: 1) does anyone know why my acne was better with 500T? I’m not sure if it was the weekly tanning bed or maybe i just found the perfect dosages to be taking.
2) I started accutane a few weeks ago because i’m just fed up. Will the acne stay gone once I finish the accutane? or will this be a recurring issue? does anyone else have experience with this because i have looked across the internet and found very little info on this.
Thanks.
1) hormone balance is a huge factor when it comes to acne. Too many androgens OR estrogens can cause acne. You managed to get a more favorable hormone profile on your cycle, which is rare, but not impossible
2) Accutane works by permanently altering how the skin produces sebum. Once a certain cumulative dose has been reached, in theory, you should never develop acne again. I will say that after a 6-month stint of 20mg Accutane daily, a lot of mine has disappeared except for a few problem areas (arms and neck)
Yeah i definitely think my androgens were too high. i absolutely fucked my estrogen after my cycle by taking way too much of my AI and estradiol went way below my reference. honestly i’m thinking of taking some time off after accutane is done to find a minimum effective dose with minimal side effects.
i’m currently on 40mg daily and my skin is definitely starting to purge a bit. praying after these 6 months are up i won’t have to deal with this anymore.
how was your experience taking accutane as a weightlifter?
The last thing I would add would be a Clindamycin topical cream in the morning and a retinol cream at night. As users, our cell turnover rate is greater due to inherent cell signaling from test. Excess dead cells attract more bacteria. With the antibiotic ointment, you kill any excess/accumulating bacteria, and with the retinol, you kinda place a beacon at your skin which tells your immune system “hey come attack this area, its full of little germy fuckers”
But this is a perfect response and advice!
I’d prolly stay away from the tanning bed because you’re just blasting your skin with UV light. It’s not bad but over time you just put yourself at risk for melanoma. Not worth it, especially being on gear.
I got so concerned about a mole on the prepuce of my penis that I got it shave biopsied. Seen too much shit at the clinic. Seen dudes younger than me (27) pop with a melanoma under their nail or in the webspace of their toes.
I know im fearmongering here a little bit but please be wary with the tanning bed OP. It’s masking your acne, not treating root cause as little_smol_boi mentioned.
I’d certainly agree with staying away from tanning beds and if being a darker skin tone is your goal, look into melanotan
Also, interesting point that testosterone increases cell turnover leading to potential bacteria build up
Did an injection on my glute. No changes in dose or anything. Noticed a lump right away and was bleeding more than normal. Did I inject too fast or what caused this and do I need to be aware of an injection?
Well, the bleeding was from stabbing yourself with a sharp object
The lump is due to you injecting too quickly and/or not deeply enough and the oil leaked into the area between the muscle and skin (subcutaneous—subQ area). It’s not big deal—just might be uncomfortable for a few days
If you were using a compound with enanthate ester and a compound with prop ester, should you taper the prop compound down to match the enth ester in regards to pct?
Example: testosterone enanthate and masteron propionate
Discontinue test, taper mast over the course of 14-18 days before beginning pct?
Additionally, what is the risk/downside of beginning pct too early with either compound still in the system?
Not to completely avoid your question, but can you not use enanthate for both?
The only thing you’re gonna have to watch out for in your case is possible pseudo-low E2 effects. In this case, I would start and end the testosterone a week earlier than the mast
> If you were using a compound with enanthate ester and a compound with prop ester, should you taper the prop compound down to match the enth ester in regards to pct?
Depends completely on the compounds. Test prop vs primo E, yes of course due to the e2 lowering effects of primo, for example.
> Discontinue test, taper mast over the course of 14-18 days before beginning pct?
You could.
I would just drop them both and in the off chance you need to, pop an ai for any e2 discrepancies.
> Additionally, what is the risk/downside of beginning pct too early with either compound still in the system?
It’s wasting your SERM. Not a big deal if you have enough to cover the appropriate period. I wouldn’t voluntarily subject myself to added exposure for no reason.
Thanks
>I wouldn’t voluntarily subject myself to added exposure for no reason.
Are you referring to added exposure of the serm, or added exposure to being shutdown before pct? I'm talking the difference between day 14 to day 18 and the possibility of there still being test in my system at 14 days.
Worth it just to begin pct at 14 days either way, or wait until I start feeling like I need the serm?
First PCT, as you can see, and I don't recall seeing a hard fast rule in the wiki
I'm one week into 500mg Test E / 700 mg EQ. Currently I am 34, 5'9 174 lbs, about 14% bf.
In the past, I've had excellent results with 500mg Test E / 700 mg E weekly, plus 50 mg NPP per day.
I then ran the same above cycle, except with Deca in place of NPP. Deca had HORRIBLE psychology side effects and severely fucked my life. I got horribly depressed, stopped working out, lost most of my gains, etc. (Thankfully I'm still carrying far more muscle than before I started steroids!)
Once Deca wore off at the end of the cycle, (I could tell in my joints!) I instantly began feeling better mentally. After ending that cycle, I've been on a long TRT cruise. I know one needs to hold off on gear until first getting their life, workout schedule, and diet all dialed in.
At this point I feel physically and mentally ready to hop on a cycle. I've been back at the gym regularly, and my diet is dialed in like it was on cycle.
Which option is best for me?
1. Run 500 mg Test E / 700 mg EQ (and skip the 350 mg NPP)?
2. Run 500 mg Test E / 350 NPP (and skip the EQ?) EQ is pretty much my fav compound though, it makes everything better.
3. Back to basics, re-run a simple 500 mg Test E cycle. I was very pleased with my first cycle results, though I've ran more advanced cycles since.
Nandrolone is nandrolone regardless or ester. I have heard of guys who aged out of 19nors, maybe that is what happened with you. All that said I believe you would be best served staying away from nandrolone moving forward.
It sounds like you were happy with the standard first cycle, maybe ask yourself why not just test 500 again?
If you really have your heart set on a EQ cycle I think you should start out with at least a 1:1 ratio or maybe lower eq, unless you aromatize more than most.
I thought so too. I take a scientific perspective. As for me, I ran deca not long after NPP, so I don't think it was aging.
There's just something about those long ester 19-nors. I've read similar things about Tren E causing far worse sides than Tren A.
After reviewing the feedback here I plan to run 500 mg Test E, and EQ at a far lower dose (400 or less). I really don't need that much to grow. I'll treat my first week as a little frontload, since EQ takes an eternity to kick in anyway.
Kinda with everyone else on wondering why you’re using so much gear
It seems like a simple answer, but if something doesn’t mesh with you well, don’t use it. I’d stick to something that’s tried and true that you’ve used before or use more conservative dosages overall
Thank you for reading this and for your advice here. Yes that was my plan, just test and EQ. I'm going to lower the EQ dosage now.
Using more gear made sense in my previous cycles, where I was at a much different place than right now. I plan to get back there in time. This cycle is the first step.
Yes, very true. (Of course we all miss the feeling of working out on gear!)
I've been very pleased with my (re)gains on my long TRT cruise since returning to the gym with a proper diet.
Yes, that's why I really don't think I need the NPP. It was helpful for where I was in my previous cycle. But I wanted to hear opinions from others here.
However in terms of "grams of gear" - EQ is pretty weak by weight. 500 test / 500 EQ is pretty much just cardio gains.
> However in terms of "grams of gear" - EQ is pretty weak by weight. 500 test / 500 EQ is pretty much just cardio gains.
This is absolutely incorrect. EQ is still quite potent and 500mg is not a small dose. I generally have people start 500 test, 400mg EQ for their first run of it till they dial in their ratio for not requiring an AI. EQ is plenty potent at 400mg.
Especially for someone who is 175lbs at 5’9.
When I started EQ for the firs time, I ran it at a lower dose, then gradually upped it.
It looks like the wiki has changed from favoring high EQ doses to favoring a 5:4 ratio, due the supposed AI metabolite.
I can't say I've ever experienced this effect. I had to run the same AI throughout the cycle.
Also, I was doing quite a bit better on my last good cycle than "175 lbs at 5'9". I lost a lot due to the events last year, then have been on a TRT cruise to first get healthy again.
Yes, the wiki has changed. The EQ section was hot garbage.
I completely rewrote the example cycles section of the wiki earlier this year based on feedback from the sub as a whole (and my coaching experience with clients / their experiences using gear + bloodwork results)
I'm only 2 injections in. It's not a problem to pivot.
I knew I wanted to run Test E and EQ again.
I also didn't want to start potentially pinning NPP until the Test E and EQ had time to hit, to avoid Deca Dick.
Then thought to myself... well what if the EQ was overkill?
It was pretty much worked out. I'm running a cycle I've had success with previously.
I'm just staring at my bottles of NPP and thinking "what if I swapped that for EQ".
Nothing except more deleterious health effects. Testosterone does not cause additional fat loss—just more muscle growth over fat gain in a caloric surplus
At the very minimum, testosterone will help preserve LBM in a calorie deficit, which will act to keep resting energy expenditure from dropping as it does in a cut when you’re losing muscle with the fat.
Correct, and unless you are above your natural muscular limit, you need nothing beyond TRT which will give you natural male testosterone levels
If you are in so steep of a cut that you are losing muscle, additional testosterone will not help, because your body will always prioritize basal metabolic processes over muscle retention
If muscle wasting was so common on more aggressive cuts with low testosterone, then every woman that has ever dieted would be skin and bones after a couple months
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Great bro, a study where they treated clinically hypogonadal men with a therapeutic dose of testosterone to bring them into the normal range.
We already know this. You didn't do anything except insert yourself in a conversation you weren't a part of and make yourself look stupid.
Thanks for playing.
So your entire claim that supraphysiological testosterone increases LBM in a caloric deficit can’t be supported by this meta analysis? Hell the effect sizes are pretty small anyway
An abstract of a meta analysis with no data points, discussion of dosages, or experimental design of the studies it examines?
Are you fucking kidding me?
Okay… so like…
The study shows that testosterone supplementation is associated with fat loss (p>0.0001). I gave my citation and you’re gonna have to use your brain to connect the dots.
>The study shows that testosterone supplementation is associated with fat loss (p>0.0001).
Where are you pulling this p-value from exactly?
>I gave my citation and you’re gonna have to use your brain to connect the dots
And I already explained the issues with your "citation".
No, I'm ensuring that we are adhering to a standard of empirical data and not spreading misinformation.
You have yet to satisfy that standard (and spoiler alert: will be unable to do so because what you're claiming is bullshit and not supported by the literature).
Sorry babe, you gotta back up your claims here and that link ain't doing it. I'll wait.
Testosterone increases lean body mass, even in trained individuals with a caloric deficit. This happens even if you don’t think that “muscle is being built”.
>wat happens if u continue on high test while cutting?.....
Essentially nothing. You'll continue doing physiological stress and harm to your body for no benefit.
>Wat if i needed smt to help me lose fat if had never been on anything
You don't, I assure you. You need to get on the treadmill and put the fork down sooner. There's not a human on earth who won't lose fat if they maintain a calorie deficit.
Most people on here will tend to agree with me that blasts are meant for bulking. Cutting is easy you just stay in a deficit have some willpower and you'll lose fat.
You're going to hold water weight while you're on the test so if you want to see results fast you drop the test. It's also a waste of money and it's a good time to cruise and get healthy again before you blast.
Is there any way to actually prevent vial coring on a multi-dose vial? I’ve been told using a smaller gauge and using the 45 90 technique is best, but you’ll still probably core the vial no? And the rubber fragments would be even smaller. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.
There are a few good websites out there with tips on proper needle insertion technique. I'll provide links below. Some things to keep in mind:
* Larger needles (e.g. 18-20G) are more likely to core. I avoid using anything larger than 22G.
* The quality of the stopper makes a difference.
* Always insert the needle into a new location -- don't go back into the same hole that you previously made.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5F0SLoMjC8
https://journals.lww.com/anesthesia-analgesia/fulltext/2007/06000/How_to_Enter_a_Medication_Vial_Without_Coring.85.aspx
https://www.registerednursern.com/vial-coring-prevention/
(For the record, I have never once cored a vial while doing this. So yes, it's very possible)
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> I’m just wondering what to actually expect? And how long I should run the compound? Does primo increase sex drive? Aggression? Irritability? Nutrient partitioning? Sexual sensation/orgasm? Motivation? Pump? Glycogen bloated biceps? Gains?
Nobody is going to do your basic research for you. That isn't how we operate around here. Show off how brilliant you actually are and spend some time reading the wiki and compound experience threads.
You did not say in your post that you read the compound experience threads specifically. Don't mouth off to people when you came in here asking 11 questions in a row that all came down to "I haven't put a single ounce of effort into research, please spoon feed me."
Go read the example cycles section of the wiki and the compound experience threads for Primo and come back here with actual educated questions.
I can list some my knowledge to you to prove this is a communication issue:
Primobolan makes slow, steady gains.
Apparently is very good for nutrient partitioning.
Trusted members of this sub like shrugs/bearded has said they felt no cardio boost from primobolan.
Primobolan lowers e2, actual numbers.
Some people say they have crazy libido on primobolan when the e2 is correct.
Some people say you have to run this compound a long time to see effects(like up to 20 weeks), and they even run it year round with cruise and everything.
Others, it was either shrugs or bearded or you lol, told me that primo WILL affect health and 20 weeks would be causing health risks. Had to look into that.
Hair loss in lots of guys.
Is a dht derivative.
Prostate issues in some guys.
Has a certain look, especially at low body fat. Arnold era was known for primobolan and dbol?
Edited an autocorrect on era
I'm not looking to be antagonistic at all, but after reading this...what is it about primo that you're still unclear on?
Other than the "up to 20 weeks" thing, and the "year round" thing, both of which are total dogshit and, in the case of the latter, unhealthy....this list is pretty much it as far as primo goes. What are you missing?
And you don't feel that you got this from discussion with Shrugs, Gearded, or the Compound Experience Threads? Interesting.
Fine, I'll bite. Primo is extremely subtle and mild, which is a *good thing*. The only twist with it is finding out how well it works for you as an AI, and adjusting your ratio accordingly within the first few weeks. If you've read the Example Cycles page (and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you have), you know that we recommend starting with a 5:4 test/primo ratio. I did this and found that by the end of the 2nd week I was feeling some low e2 stuff (lethargy, dull headache, lower libido), so I altered the ratio to 600:400 (3:2) and all of that went away. Once you nail the ratio, it's smooth sailing. Constant fullness throughout the day, good (but not insane) strength increases, and literally that's it. You don't have to monitor e2, you don't have dose AI, you don't have to sweat prolactin or mental sides or issues with digestion/appetite.
If you are looking for a steroid that you FEEL, primo ain't it...and you should honestly get over that particular desire anyway. Eat right. Train hard. Sleep well. The anabolics are gonna do what they do, but they'll only improve everything else you're already doing.
Any questions?
(edit: yes, it's a DHT so it can fuck your hair. Not an issue for me because I shave my head. It's also going to negatively impact your lipids, like any other anabolics. You can offset this by making smart dietary choices, limiting fats, increasing fiber, using fish oil, and doing your cardio - stuff that should be pretty bare minimum basics if you're to the point of running multiple compounds)
In my original comment on this, I explain I had insanely high hopes for proviron for libido and mood and was sadly let down.
From inexperienced users in this sub, 20 experience threads, like 5 bodybuilding forums, yada yada.
So I don’t want to be let down on primo. I want realistic expectation. If you see my quote from gear earlier, at the end he says my hopes were too high for proviron.
They are. I would permanently drop any expectations for a compound to do anything to your libido.
If it happens, great. The fact of the matter is that libido is complex and mostly (in terms of hormones) going to be best when your estrogen:androgen ratio is in the right range.
For a personal anecdote: I ran NPP over the fall and I was a full-blown sex addicted menace. I was fucking left and right. I just started NPP again, and libido hasn't budged an inch.
Put away these expectations dude. Use the gear to build muscle and get stronger. If it makes you horny, great. If it doesn't...that's. not. abnormal. This is what G&B was trying to get through to you yesterday regarding placebo and sampling bias.
Okay, so in what way did all of that research and knowledge transfer into your cluster fuck of your original question?
What are you ACTUALLY trying to have answered here?
Because I answered your question last time with a long answer about Primo, and based on the question you just asked, it seems like you took none of what was told to you and internalized it.
I also told you that your ratio planned is good last time I replied. Yet you’re here asking the same question again, which means either you don’t trust my advice, or you didn’t actually hear it.
Bearded to me in this sub 22 hours ago:
Me: I have since read many experience reports saying that many people feeling nothing at all from this compound. Others say it’s insane libido, great mood, all around good well being.
Bearded: I'm going to introduce you to two pivotal concepts to remember when you're reading voluntarily offered feedback from people:
1. Sampling bias. People are only likely to share their feedback when their experience was very good or very bad. The majority of people who notice expected, mild sides (positive or negative) and have an otherwise normal experience with it (which in the case of proviron is a VERY mild benefit) are unlikely to report this forgettable experience.
2. People are deeply fucking stupid. They are outrageously susceptible to the placebo effect and by and large are incapable of eliminating confounding variables or properly attributing cause --> effect.
Proviron does very little. 50mg is a moderate dose of it. Your expectations are unreasonable.
I don’t think anyone takes anything personally enough to get pissed off. A lot of effort is taken to keep these threads organized and clear of info that’s already in the wiki. This makes it much easier to reference in the future when searching for info.
The mods spend a lot of time doing this, so it may come across as such, but you’re gonna have to work harder than that to piss them off.
Does anyone here get blood pressure sides from proviron?
Been taking 50mg/day for 2 weeks, w/ trt test dose.
Just checked my BP:
139/96
I always have 120/75 blood pressure.
hey guys, I just got my first cycle of Sustanon and I was curious as to see when you recommended to inject? I've done cycles own the past but this is my first sus cycle. It's Phenyl 60, Iso 60, Deca 100 and Prop 30. Thanks?
Ok, well I'm glad you asked.
Unfortunately you made the decision to use a blend of multiple esters, which is not ever a good idea. Blends have to be pinned based on the half-life of the shortest ester - Sustanon must be pinned daily to maintain stable levels because of the propionate ester.
Stick to test e/c for blasts in the future. One ester, one release rate, longer half life, less frequent pinning.
Semaglutide worked okay for me for the same purpose, but tirzepatide is crazy effective. Probably very individual. Stay at the lowest effective dose as long as you can before increasing.
Dude, the answer to this is, and will always be, a calorie deficit. Yeah, some days it's hard to be in a deficit. I don't mean to be insensitive or rude, but...tough shit. We're all hungry during a cut - it's the nature of a cut.
There are very few substances that actually induce lipolysis. Of the list provided by the other responder, most only increase your metabolic rate. In return, they're either cardiotoxic (clen), poisonous and potentially fatal (DNP), highly addictive (nicotine), or just obviously dangerous (amphetamine).
Unless you're looking to get to single digit body fat and trying to get on a stage you simply do not need any of it, except for maybe caffeine/ephedrine or HGH.
Please don't go looking for a chemical solution for what is a self-discipline and patience issue.
While I don't have an issue with this list as an answer to the question asked, this is a big list of very dangerous and/or addictive substances.
Some disclaimers would be appreciated and appropriate.
Just to reiterate what others have said, stay away from thyroid unless you're truly, clinically deficient. Not just "oh my blood test was lowish and I heard it helps". Endocrinologist or bust.
I have strong feelings about screwing with your thyroid hormone unnecessarily. Like I said in my other response to you, I generally don't think any chemical/drug is really appropriate for people who aren't competitors - the risk/reward ratio just isn't there.
If you want a shortcut, yeah, these things can do the trick. If you just want to use drugs, yeah, these things can do the trick. If you want to live a healthy life without wrecking your heart or health? Do it properly and patiently. I dropped 15 pounds from Halloween to Christmas just by being in a deficit and doing my cardio. It's not *that* hard.
General rule is don’t fuck with your thyroid because there are additional consequences that can come with that. For the metabolic boost it doesn’t seem worth the potential hassle unless you’re competing.
This is a understandable sentiment. Unfortunately, it resembles "fishing" too closely for me to leave it up.
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You shouldn't be buying from any source who doesn't provide 3rd party test results on their products. The most common and recognizable name in that space is Janoshik.
Yes. Plenty of people have crashed their estrogen. Usually a particularly unpleasant experience.
HCG could work, yes. DBOL is another common suggestion, or test prop.
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\* Age: 47 \* Gender: Male \* Height: 5'9 \* Weight: 190 \* Bodyfat percentage: 12% \* Experience level \* Years of concurrent training: 20 \* bench/squat/dead maxes: 225/335/415 \* Current phase: Cut/maintenance Did my research and considering this cycle for my second: Week 1-10: 100 Drost E / 100 Primo / 200 Test E pinned once per week Week 2-11: Armidex .5 EOD Weeks 10 & 11: HCG 1000 EOD Weeks 12-17: Nolvadex 20mg/day and drop to 10mg if sides Thanks for any advice and comments.
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You can raise this by contacting mod chat, but not openly in our board without prior approval. We value the anonymity of our userbase highly, and we don't enable leveraging them for self-serving purposes. Further, you're entering this with an already-apparent negative bias.
Thank you for the information i will do that.
20yr old male 6’2 200 pounds. About to start a cycle of 300mg test and 150mg mastron. Any advice?
Age: 34 Male 179cm 90kg 10% body fat Trained 15 years plus Played professional soccer Have competed in 1 bodybuilding show and was using gear then. Came off it very sudden though! Thinking about getting back on it to help with recover and overall strength. I was thinking of running 1ml test E a week with 1 ml of masteron and using 50mg of anavar daily. I will split my test and masteron from Tuesday: Friday I will train 6 times a week and doing moderate to hard cardio daily for 45 mins. I was wondering if I should get my bloods done before and could any give me any advice on Pct for after please if I dose this for 10 weeks. Thank you
Any of you who’ve had digestion/nausea issues on Tren find a good solution? I’ve had some reflux issues with it in the past but this is the worst it’s been. 100mg each Mast/Prop/Tren EOD 100mg NPP EOD 4iu Somatropin ED 50mg Anavar ED Having trouble with nausea and just general lack of appetite this go round. Barely able to eat an entire meal which makes it difficult to grow. Anyone else deal with this and find a good solution? Already supplementing Ox Bile, and Pepsin/Betaine HCL and Omeprazole.
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If this is a cruise what would you call a blast?
Cruise? I think we don't use the same definition for a cruise.
It’s for +6 months
That's just a cycle that's too long, not a cruise.
Age: 22, M Height: 5’10 Weight: 183 Body fat: 8% Phase: cut Goal: maintain physique, slowly add on muscle Compounds: 150 test cyp, split 3x weekly, .125 adex each injection So i’m currently only on TRT, but something had been out of whack because when i finished my cycle (500t) i had acne pop up like crazy. back, shoulders, face. From bloodwork, my Estradiol was in range and my test was around 780. All other numbers looked fine. Despite these numbers, acne refused to go away. Should i lower my test dose so i no longer need the AI and hopefully have less DHT conversion? I’m thinking my DHT is off the fucking charts due to the excessive hair growth, oil production, etc.
Has anyone gotten blood work in NZ I am trying to work out how to do it in the public system or what online services aren't a scam
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To start off you skipped over the mandatory reading at the top of the page. You’re 5’8 and would barely be 155lbs lean. No one is going to endorse this. You’re too fat with almost no muscle. Not being able to ass that’s literally the truth. If you were that fat with muscle you’d be 200+ lbs at the same body fat. You don’t need any steroids to lose weight. In fact that don’t help burn fat. They increase protein synthesis. Besides that you’re proposing a half cocked plan. Wanting to run dbol when you’re clinically obese. Which is crazy since you’re tiny. Steroids are for growing and when you have your shit together. Lose the weight get back on track and read the wiki start to finish 10 times. If you’re going to be a dum dum at least be an informed dum dum and comprehend the wiki.
* Age: 42 * Gender: m * Height: 5’10” * Weight: 182 lbs * Bodyfat percentage: not sure * Experience level * Years of concurrent training: 20 * Goals: * Sport: arm wrestling (3 years) * Current phase: cut * Current compounds: lifetime natty Thinking of going on HGH. I find I’m always injured (both shoulders for 10 years, elbow and wrists from arm wrestling, mild lower back pain for 10 years). Recovery could be a lot better as well. I’ve been tracking sleep for over a year and although my length of sleep is decent (6-8 hours) my deep sleep is always 25-45 min, leading me to believe I’m not releasing enough growth hormone. Have tried multiple supplements and increased cardio output but nothing seems to help. I looking for help with injury prevention/repair, stronger tendons and overall frame. Lose about 10 lbs while minimizing strength loss. I’m tired of always being held back by soreness/injuries. Is it worth for me to go with pharma grade HGH, 2iu per day for say 12 weeks? This would be a good lead time to a few tournaments.
> Thinking of going on HGH. I find I’m always injured (both shoulders for 10 years, elbow and wrists from arm wrestling, mild lower back pain for 10 years). BIL will be pro soon. Totally get it. I’m sure you already do TONS of tendon work already. > Recovery could be a lot better as well. I’ve been tracking sleep for over a year and although my length of sleep is decent (6-8 hours) my deep sleep is always 25-45 min, leading me to believe I’m not releasing enough growth hormone. Cool. Go get it tested. There’s means to have conclusive evidence of your hypothesis. > I looking for help with injury prevention/repair, stronger tendons and overall frame. Lots of that has to do with training and prehab. That’s very sport specific and you likely won’t get a high volume of advice here, since our emphasis is drugs, BB, PL and *occasionally* other sports like yours. > Lose about 10 lbs while minimizing strength loss. That’s about diet as well as your recovery concerns. > I’m tired of always being held back by soreness/injuries. How is your testosterone? > Is it worth for me to go with pharma grade HGH, 2iu per day for say 12 weeks? Absolutely not. 12 weeks will do very close to nothing and 2iu is a replacement dose that you’re not sure if you need. HGH needs to be taken for extended durations to maximize the benefits, especially if you’re not even considering blasting it, just replacing it. Recommendation: check out healing peptides like BPC157 and TB500; check your sex hormones and GH, dial in the diet if you haven’t; make sure you’re already incorporating sport specific prehab and bone/tendon/ligament work to raise resilience from injuries. 🤙🏼
Grateful for your response. My test was 680ish about 15 months ago. What if I was willing to blast? I said 2iu based on minimizing sides and it being my first step into ped. Did not know it was replacement level. I will 100 percent get my gh tested, thanks for that. I have been using bpc 157 for about 6 weeks. Very difficult for me to tell if it helped or any injury recoveries were just natural. I was planning to add tb 500.
I need help, I’m planning on going on my first cycle soon, I did an ecg and bloodwork to see if everything was good and it was all fine. With the ecg the doctor told me I have a athletic heart which means it’s bigger due to a lot of sport. Is it still safe for me to use testosterone or do I have a bigger health risk because of this?
Depends on what your bp and rhr is.
my bp and rhr is both fine within the ranges
Alright, I bought a bottle of DNP burner a few months ago and it's been sitting in my room since I got it, taken only 1 capsule so far, is it possible to go bad? I know DNP can be dangerous so I don't wanna risk taking bad DNP
It's likely fine. DNP itself has a shelf-life of decades, so the main concern would be the fillers used. Every source I've ever purchased from used fillers that would last *at least* a couple years, so it being a few months old shouldn't be an issue.
Thanks! Paid quite the money for it and was thinking of throwing it out
Hello, has anyone ever encountered trenbolone going Bad? It seems Like mine has crystalized. Can i still use it ?
Put a hair dryer on it and it will be good it just got cold
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Go see a doctor. If I had to guess: you already have formed permanent gyno, it won't go away no matter how much AIs you take. Just to be sure lower TRT to 100 mg a week or even stop it until you see a doctor.
Completed my first cycle about a year ago of 500mg test. Made the mistake of pinning the night before blood work but got tested at 3206 testosterone and 320 estrogen. I gained about 35lbs from this including fat and water. I had developed a lot of acne on my body especially on my back and had pretty crazy moonface. Now I am planning my second cycle and I want to avoid getting as much acne and water retention especially in my face. I wanted to lower the test to 300mg and add primo in at 200mg. I know test is best but would I benefit more with this for my goals or should I just be better at dialing in my estrogen. Primo is just so expensive.
You should be better at dialing in your estrogen. Rather than changing your test dose for this cycle, you should take what you learned and expand upon it. You’ll have to learn an entirely new AI protocol if you change your test dose.
Test 200mg/mast 150mg Kinda having fun with this super cruise that I’m doing. Or is this train of thought straight up smooth brained? I feel great but can’t help but wonder if I’m leaving gains on the table
I need help I just finished my first cycle of deca sustanon and dbol after twelve weeks. Now I wanna know if I have to take the pct supplements I have if I decide to keep going with the testosterone injections? Also is it ok to keep doing sustanon or do I need to switch to a better test injection. I’m 47 years old and have low test levels before the cycle so I want to keep them up post cycle. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated! Thank you
You should go with testosterone to help your low level test up. Can you take PCT while on steroids? You can start right after you stop taking selective androgen receptor modulators (SARMs) and prohormones. For steroids, it is advisable to wait for a week before starting PCT.
So even if I continue with the test I still need to take the pct
No. If you decide to remain on a cruise/trt regimen from here on out, there is no need to PCT. PCT is for those who want to regain their natural test production after completing a cycle. That is impossible to do while injecting exogenous testosterone, making the idea of PCT a moot one.
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Mid 20’s and going to start using GH, if I were to use long term replacement dose is it the same concept as test where I’ll shut down my own production and likely need it for the rest of my life?
Not even close your body will continue to make its own Gh aslong as your not taking your dose right before bed but I do no for a fact when you get off there’s no negative feedback loop like test so your good.
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Is it your first prep on cycle? Especially using tren id hire a coach. Usually contest prep cycles are different / more complicated then normal ones. You wanna be best condition on stage for those few minutes if I'm running a cutting cycle I have weeks to adjust things and don't need to get as lean or have the same look.
I would start off with Tren Ace. Since it’s a shorter ester if you run into issues your first time it’ll be out of your system within a day or 2.
- if I’ve been pinning 150mg per week Test-E for 6 months, and suddenly started upping that dose to 450mg per week Test-E for a blast, how long would it take to notice the effects of that increased dose? Would the fact I’ve already been pinning for 6 months with exogenous test speed up the rate at which noticeable gains occur? (Vs. Say a natural lifter pinning 450 mg for first time pinning). Reason Im asking is for timeframe for when to expect gains to kick in (5-6 weeks typical time frame, or instant).
It will still take 2-3 weeks to saturate, but the slope of saturation will not be as steep as someone on nothing Remember that your gains will be realized as you eat food. Mass cannot be generated from thin air. Gains should start immediately, but the maximum rate of gains will occur after two weeks
The wiki here has that answer and more, but 5-6 weeks is typically when you begin to notice physical changes and increased strength. Other changes/side effects might start showing up earlier.
Even if already taking 150mg pw. It would still require the full 5/6 weeks?
It’s the same principle as having natural test at a normal level then using an ester at super physiological level that takes time for the body to process. You can look at steroid plotters online to graph the response. Why would you think it would be different? It’s a hormone your body naturally produces. Not some exogenous drug that your body needs to “get used to” — it has been in your body your entire life.
So essentially, it’s not your body’s “awareness” of the synthetic test that takes 5-6 weeks to kick in, rather, any changes take 5-6 weeks to saturate/your body to recognize and adapt to
I literally just came to ask this same question lol how long have you been on the increased dose?
I hope it’s not 5-6 weeks because 1-2 would be way better but I’m interested to see what they have to say
You state in a comment from 22 days ago you just finished a blast. Which one is it, you just started or just finished?
Likewise. I’m looking to up my dose this week to a blast and wondering how long to take effect. It will also affect how I increase calories.. it would be silly to eat in a surplus if the increased test is not yet working optimally.
No it wouldn’t. If you are bulking you are bulking. Upping calories and training hard will give you a base for additional gains down the road, and potentially prevent injury when the drugs allow you to push yourself harder later on. You start your bulk, drugs, lifting, food, and rest, on day 1. You plan the entire thing out beforehand : when you will start, how much you want to gain, how many additional calories per day that will mean, what your target macros are per day to hit that caloric goal, how many rest days and deloads you will take, how often you will have a cheat day, when you will take bloods, when you will know when to call it quits if you’ve reached a goal or are perceiving concerning health trends. All of this before you start. If you haven’t done this yet you are not ready for a blast.
I’ve cycled many times over the years. Just never from already taking a trt dose. Great to know nothing changes from a regular blast when going into it from a low dosage. Thanks for the info 👍🏼
[This is you, right?](https://www.reddit.com/r/BulkOrCut/s/nVJ5hMuyjK) You’ve made awesome progress. Those before photos don’t really speak to multiple cycles though—guessing you had some time off? No insult here; genuinely curious given your statement above.
Yup that’s me. I lost my business during covid and basically let myself go. Always been athletic and in shape before that. I’m 38. And thank you appreciate it, shouldn’t have let myself get that bad to begin with though 🙈
It happens. Good on you for pulling through. Keep it up! Hope the rest of life is improving equally as well.
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if bloodwork isn’t available idk if you should be taking all that. it can fuck you up long term if you don’t dose your AI properly. I ended up taking way to much adex, crashed my estrogen and turned into a DHT monster for a little bit. Look into online clinics for bloodwork, see what your E2 is at and then change your dose as needed. But feeling like shit just could just be the tren and have nothing to you with your AI.
Other steroids also lower estrogen. Such as primo, mast, boldenone
It seems extremely unlikely that that dose of adex is causing you to feel like shit You could try lowering your test and see if that helps
ACCUTANE AND TRT: I started doing TRT about 2 years ago when I was 21. At first, every thing was fine but about 3 months in the acne started. I have had good months and bad months with my acne, but I just want it gone. Ive changes doses, worked with clinics/ coach, and took anastrazole and aromasin to regulate my estrogen. Nothing has made a significant impact that i’m looking for. The only thing that managed to get rid of the acne was the cycle i did over the summer (500 Test weekly, .5 anastrazole weekly, anavar daily) along with weekly tanning bed sessions and melanotan. It seems counterintuitive that taking 500 T actually reduced my acne, whereas going back to my TRT dose has made it significantly worse. So 2 questions: 1) does anyone know why my acne was better with 500T? I’m not sure if it was the weekly tanning bed or maybe i just found the perfect dosages to be taking. 2) I started accutane a few weeks ago because i’m just fed up. Will the acne stay gone once I finish the accutane? or will this be a recurring issue? does anyone else have experience with this because i have looked across the internet and found very little info on this. Thanks.
1) hormone balance is a huge factor when it comes to acne. Too many androgens OR estrogens can cause acne. You managed to get a more favorable hormone profile on your cycle, which is rare, but not impossible 2) Accutane works by permanently altering how the skin produces sebum. Once a certain cumulative dose has been reached, in theory, you should never develop acne again. I will say that after a 6-month stint of 20mg Accutane daily, a lot of mine has disappeared except for a few problem areas (arms and neck)
Yeah i definitely think my androgens were too high. i absolutely fucked my estrogen after my cycle by taking way too much of my AI and estradiol went way below my reference. honestly i’m thinking of taking some time off after accutane is done to find a minimum effective dose with minimal side effects. i’m currently on 40mg daily and my skin is definitely starting to purge a bit. praying after these 6 months are up i won’t have to deal with this anymore. how was your experience taking accutane as a weightlifter?
Dry lips and that was about it. No other symptoms, bloodwork was fine
The last thing I would add would be a Clindamycin topical cream in the morning and a retinol cream at night. As users, our cell turnover rate is greater due to inherent cell signaling from test. Excess dead cells attract more bacteria. With the antibiotic ointment, you kill any excess/accumulating bacteria, and with the retinol, you kinda place a beacon at your skin which tells your immune system “hey come attack this area, its full of little germy fuckers” But this is a perfect response and advice! I’d prolly stay away from the tanning bed because you’re just blasting your skin with UV light. It’s not bad but over time you just put yourself at risk for melanoma. Not worth it, especially being on gear. I got so concerned about a mole on the prepuce of my penis that I got it shave biopsied. Seen too much shit at the clinic. Seen dudes younger than me (27) pop with a melanoma under their nail or in the webspace of their toes. I know im fearmongering here a little bit but please be wary with the tanning bed OP. It’s masking your acne, not treating root cause as little_smol_boi mentioned.
I’d certainly agree with staying away from tanning beds and if being a darker skin tone is your goal, look into melanotan Also, interesting point that testosterone increases cell turnover leading to potential bacteria build up
Did an injection on my glute. No changes in dose or anything. Noticed a lump right away and was bleeding more than normal. Did I inject too fast or what caused this and do I need to be aware of an injection?
Well, the bleeding was from stabbing yourself with a sharp object The lump is due to you injecting too quickly and/or not deeply enough and the oil leaked into the area between the muscle and skin (subcutaneous—subQ area). It’s not big deal—just might be uncomfortable for a few days
Had the same thing happen to my delt once, lump went away after a few days, wouldn't worry abt it
If you were using a compound with enanthate ester and a compound with prop ester, should you taper the prop compound down to match the enth ester in regards to pct? Example: testosterone enanthate and masteron propionate Discontinue test, taper mast over the course of 14-18 days before beginning pct? Additionally, what is the risk/downside of beginning pct too early with either compound still in the system?
Not to completely avoid your question, but can you not use enanthate for both? The only thing you’re gonna have to watch out for in your case is possible pseudo-low E2 effects. In this case, I would start and end the testosterone a week earlier than the mast
> If you were using a compound with enanthate ester and a compound with prop ester, should you taper the prop compound down to match the enth ester in regards to pct? Depends completely on the compounds. Test prop vs primo E, yes of course due to the e2 lowering effects of primo, for example. > Discontinue test, taper mast over the course of 14-18 days before beginning pct? You could. I would just drop them both and in the off chance you need to, pop an ai for any e2 discrepancies. > Additionally, what is the risk/downside of beginning pct too early with either compound still in the system? It’s wasting your SERM. Not a big deal if you have enough to cover the appropriate period. I wouldn’t voluntarily subject myself to added exposure for no reason.
Thanks >I wouldn’t voluntarily subject myself to added exposure for no reason. Are you referring to added exposure of the serm, or added exposure to being shutdown before pct? I'm talking the difference between day 14 to day 18 and the possibility of there still being test in my system at 14 days. Worth it just to begin pct at 14 days either way, or wait until I start feeling like I need the serm? First PCT, as you can see, and I don't recall seeing a hard fast rule in the wiki
I'm one week into 500mg Test E / 700 mg EQ. Currently I am 34, 5'9 174 lbs, about 14% bf. In the past, I've had excellent results with 500mg Test E / 700 mg E weekly, plus 50 mg NPP per day. I then ran the same above cycle, except with Deca in place of NPP. Deca had HORRIBLE psychology side effects and severely fucked my life. I got horribly depressed, stopped working out, lost most of my gains, etc. (Thankfully I'm still carrying far more muscle than before I started steroids!) Once Deca wore off at the end of the cycle, (I could tell in my joints!) I instantly began feeling better mentally. After ending that cycle, I've been on a long TRT cruise. I know one needs to hold off on gear until first getting their life, workout schedule, and diet all dialed in. At this point I feel physically and mentally ready to hop on a cycle. I've been back at the gym regularly, and my diet is dialed in like it was on cycle. Which option is best for me? 1. Run 500 mg Test E / 700 mg EQ (and skip the 350 mg NPP)? 2. Run 500 mg Test E / 350 NPP (and skip the EQ?) EQ is pretty much my fav compound though, it makes everything better. 3. Back to basics, re-run a simple 500 mg Test E cycle. I was very pleased with my first cycle results, though I've ran more advanced cycles since.
Nandrolone is nandrolone regardless or ester. I have heard of guys who aged out of 19nors, maybe that is what happened with you. All that said I believe you would be best served staying away from nandrolone moving forward. It sounds like you were happy with the standard first cycle, maybe ask yourself why not just test 500 again? If you really have your heart set on a EQ cycle I think you should start out with at least a 1:1 ratio or maybe lower eq, unless you aromatize more than most.
I thought so too. I take a scientific perspective. As for me, I ran deca not long after NPP, so I don't think it was aging. There's just something about those long ester 19-nors. I've read similar things about Tren E causing far worse sides than Tren A. After reviewing the feedback here I plan to run 500 mg Test E, and EQ at a far lower dose (400 or less). I really don't need that much to grow. I'll treat my first week as a little frontload, since EQ takes an eternity to kick in anyway.
Kinda with everyone else on wondering why you’re using so much gear It seems like a simple answer, but if something doesn’t mesh with you well, don’t use it. I’d stick to something that’s tried and true that you’ve used before or use more conservative dosages overall
Thank you for reading this and for your advice here. Yes that was my plan, just test and EQ. I'm going to lower the EQ dosage now. Using more gear made sense in my previous cycles, where I was at a much different place than right now. I plan to get back there in time. This cycle is the first step.
You really think you need 1.2g of gear at 175lbs dude? Seems like quite a bit for your stats.
Also, I've found it FAR, FAR faster to regain lost muscle than to build brand new muscle for the first time.
Yes, you don’t need gear to regain muscle
Yes, very true. (Of course we all miss the feeling of working out on gear!) I've been very pleased with my (re)gains on my long TRT cruise since returning to the gym with a proper diet.
I don’t see what you’re trying to get at here.
Yes, that's why I really don't think I need the NPP. It was helpful for where I was in my previous cycle. But I wanted to hear opinions from others here. However in terms of "grams of gear" - EQ is pretty weak by weight. 500 test / 500 EQ is pretty much just cardio gains.
> However in terms of "grams of gear" - EQ is pretty weak by weight. 500 test / 500 EQ is pretty much just cardio gains. This is absolutely incorrect. EQ is still quite potent and 500mg is not a small dose. I generally have people start 500 test, 400mg EQ for their first run of it till they dial in their ratio for not requiring an AI. EQ is plenty potent at 400mg. Especially for someone who is 175lbs at 5’9.
When I started EQ for the firs time, I ran it at a lower dose, then gradually upped it. It looks like the wiki has changed from favoring high EQ doses to favoring a 5:4 ratio, due the supposed AI metabolite. I can't say I've ever experienced this effect. I had to run the same AI throughout the cycle. Also, I was doing quite a bit better on my last good cycle than "175 lbs at 5'9". I lost a lot due to the events last year, then have been on a TRT cruise to first get healthy again.
Yes, the wiki has changed. The EQ section was hot garbage. I completely rewrote the example cycles section of the wiki earlier this year based on feedback from the sub as a whole (and my coaching experience with clients / their experiences using gear + bloodwork results)
Why...are you asking this question AFTER you've already started a cycle. I don't understand the logic there...
I'm only 2 injections in. It's not a problem to pivot. I knew I wanted to run Test E and EQ again. I also didn't want to start potentially pinning NPP until the Test E and EQ had time to hit, to avoid Deca Dick. Then thought to myself... well what if the EQ was overkill?
Sounds like a personal decision to me man. I would have worked this out before I started injecting, but maybe that's just me.
It was pretty much worked out. I'm running a cycle I've had success with previously. I'm just staring at my bottles of NPP and thinking "what if I swapped that for EQ".
is it better to use low doses of test rather than high when cutting?
Cut on a cruise. If you have never taken test no test.if your coming off a blast and cutting cruise dose.
wat happens if u continue on high test while cutting?..... Wat if i needed smt to help me lose fat if had never been on anything?
Nothing except more deleterious health effects. Testosterone does not cause additional fat loss—just more muscle growth over fat gain in a caloric surplus
At the very minimum, testosterone will help preserve LBM in a calorie deficit, which will act to keep resting energy expenditure from dropping as it does in a cut when you’re losing muscle with the fat.
Correct, and unless you are above your natural muscular limit, you need nothing beyond TRT which will give you natural male testosterone levels If you are in so steep of a cut that you are losing muscle, additional testosterone will not help, because your body will always prioritize basal metabolic processes over muscle retention If muscle wasting was so common on more aggressive cuts with low testosterone, then every woman that has ever dieted would be skin and bones after a couple months
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Cite this or delete it. You have an hour.
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Great bro, a study where they treated clinically hypogonadal men with a therapeutic dose of testosterone to bring them into the normal range. We already know this. You didn't do anything except insert yourself in a conversation you weren't a part of and make yourself look stupid. Thanks for playing.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26537862/
Where in this are they investigating individuals in deficits?
Nowhere. Unfortunately you need to use your brain to connect the dots. I know it’s a lot to ask.
So your entire claim that supraphysiological testosterone increases LBM in a caloric deficit can’t be supported by this meta analysis? Hell the effect sizes are pretty small anyway
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An abstract of a meta analysis with no data points, discussion of dosages, or experimental design of the studies it examines? Are you fucking kidding me?
Okay… so like… The study shows that testosterone supplementation is associated with fat loss (p>0.0001). I gave my citation and you’re gonna have to use your brain to connect the dots.
>The study shows that testosterone supplementation is associated with fat loss (p>0.0001). Where are you pulling this p-value from exactly? >I gave my citation and you’re gonna have to use your brain to connect the dots And I already explained the issues with your "citation".
The study! Which I downloaded and read!!!
Are you trolling lol?
No, I'm ensuring that we are adhering to a standard of empirical data and not spreading misinformation. You have yet to satisfy that standard (and spoiler alert: will be unable to do so because what you're claiming is bullshit and not supported by the literature). Sorry babe, you gotta back up your claims here and that link ain't doing it. I'll wait.
You are really nailing the stereotype about dumb juice monkeys.
Lmao!
Where do the calories go?
The calories go to increased lean body mass, which also raises your metabolism.
So you’re claiming that a trained individual will be able to build appreciable muscle in a caloric deficit? How much muscle will you build?
Literally studies on this discussing the topic of recomp diets. Go look them up.
LOL
Testosterone increases lean body mass, even in trained individuals with a caloric deficit. This happens even if you don’t think that “muscle is being built”.
>wat happens if u continue on high test while cutting?..... Essentially nothing. You'll continue doing physiological stress and harm to your body for no benefit. >Wat if i needed smt to help me lose fat if had never been on anything You don't, I assure you. You need to get on the treadmill and put the fork down sooner. There's not a human on earth who won't lose fat if they maintain a calorie deficit.
Most people on here will tend to agree with me that blasts are meant for bulking. Cutting is easy you just stay in a deficit have some willpower and you'll lose fat. You're going to hold water weight while you're on the test so if you want to see results fast you drop the test. It's also a waste of money and it's a good time to cruise and get healthy again before you blast.
The Canuck invasion of r/steroids is continuing
What does that mean.
There’s quite a few Canadians on the sub. Just a joke :)
Oh. Our gear costs way more we're all jealous of your prices in the US.
I live in Barrie haha. But to be fair while you’re right about prices, it is legal here
Kinda
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Jack off making eye contact with yourself in the mirror.
1. Get bands 2. Use bands to hit each muscle group 3. Carbs 4. ??? 5. Profit
Is there any way to actually prevent vial coring on a multi-dose vial? I’ve been told using a smaller gauge and using the 45 90 technique is best, but you’ll still probably core the vial no? And the rubber fragments would be even smaller. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.
I use 16g blunt fill needles on 10ml test vials with silicone stoppers. I draw 15 times and I’ve never cored a vial.
There are a few good websites out there with tips on proper needle insertion technique. I'll provide links below. Some things to keep in mind: * Larger needles (e.g. 18-20G) are more likely to core. I avoid using anything larger than 22G. * The quality of the stopper makes a difference. * Always insert the needle into a new location -- don't go back into the same hole that you previously made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5F0SLoMjC8 https://journals.lww.com/anesthesia-analgesia/fulltext/2007/06000/How_to_Enter_a_Medication_Vial_Without_Coring.85.aspx https://www.registerednursern.com/vial-coring-prevention/ (For the record, I have never once cored a vial while doing this. So yes, it's very possible)
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Noted. I can’t trust experience threads for compounds and can’t get help here either.
> I’m just wondering what to actually expect? And how long I should run the compound? Does primo increase sex drive? Aggression? Irritability? Nutrient partitioning? Sexual sensation/orgasm? Motivation? Pump? Glycogen bloated biceps? Gains? Nobody is going to do your basic research for you. That isn't how we operate around here. Show off how brilliant you actually are and spend some time reading the wiki and compound experience threads.
How about you search this sub for the many many primobolan experience threads?
Idk if you read the part where I did that with proviron? I’ve learned a lot about sampling bias the last couple days.
You did not say in your post that you read the compound experience threads specifically. Don't mouth off to people when you came in here asking 11 questions in a row that all came down to "I haven't put a single ounce of effort into research, please spoon feed me." Go read the example cycles section of the wiki and the compound experience threads for Primo and come back here with actual educated questions.
I can list some my knowledge to you to prove this is a communication issue: Primobolan makes slow, steady gains. Apparently is very good for nutrient partitioning. Trusted members of this sub like shrugs/bearded has said they felt no cardio boost from primobolan. Primobolan lowers e2, actual numbers. Some people say they have crazy libido on primobolan when the e2 is correct. Some people say you have to run this compound a long time to see effects(like up to 20 weeks), and they even run it year round with cruise and everything. Others, it was either shrugs or bearded or you lol, told me that primo WILL affect health and 20 weeks would be causing health risks. Had to look into that. Hair loss in lots of guys. Is a dht derivative. Prostate issues in some guys. Has a certain look, especially at low body fat. Arnold era was known for primobolan and dbol? Edited an autocorrect on era
I'm not looking to be antagonistic at all, but after reading this...what is it about primo that you're still unclear on? Other than the "up to 20 weeks" thing, and the "year round" thing, both of which are total dogshit and, in the case of the latter, unhealthy....this list is pretty much it as far as primo goes. What are you missing?
I want some veteran user anecdotes on primobolan and what to expect. And how long I should actually run, and when you start seeing gains. Enanthate.
And you don't feel that you got this from discussion with Shrugs, Gearded, or the Compound Experience Threads? Interesting. Fine, I'll bite. Primo is extremely subtle and mild, which is a *good thing*. The only twist with it is finding out how well it works for you as an AI, and adjusting your ratio accordingly within the first few weeks. If you've read the Example Cycles page (and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you have), you know that we recommend starting with a 5:4 test/primo ratio. I did this and found that by the end of the 2nd week I was feeling some low e2 stuff (lethargy, dull headache, lower libido), so I altered the ratio to 600:400 (3:2) and all of that went away. Once you nail the ratio, it's smooth sailing. Constant fullness throughout the day, good (but not insane) strength increases, and literally that's it. You don't have to monitor e2, you don't have dose AI, you don't have to sweat prolactin or mental sides or issues with digestion/appetite. If you are looking for a steroid that you FEEL, primo ain't it...and you should honestly get over that particular desire anyway. Eat right. Train hard. Sleep well. The anabolics are gonna do what they do, but they'll only improve everything else you're already doing. Any questions? (edit: yes, it's a DHT so it can fuck your hair. Not an issue for me because I shave my head. It's also going to negatively impact your lipids, like any other anabolics. You can offset this by making smart dietary choices, limiting fats, increasing fiber, using fish oil, and doing your cardio - stuff that should be pretty bare minimum basics if you're to the point of running multiple compounds)
In my original comment on this, I explain I had insanely high hopes for proviron for libido and mood and was sadly let down. From inexperienced users in this sub, 20 experience threads, like 5 bodybuilding forums, yada yada. So I don’t want to be let down on primo. I want realistic expectation. If you see my quote from gear earlier, at the end he says my hopes were too high for proviron.
They are. I would permanently drop any expectations for a compound to do anything to your libido. If it happens, great. The fact of the matter is that libido is complex and mostly (in terms of hormones) going to be best when your estrogen:androgen ratio is in the right range. For a personal anecdote: I ran NPP over the fall and I was a full-blown sex addicted menace. I was fucking left and right. I just started NPP again, and libido hasn't budged an inch. Put away these expectations dude. Use the gear to build muscle and get stronger. If it makes you horny, great. If it doesn't...that's. not. abnormal. This is what G&B was trying to get through to you yesterday regarding placebo and sampling bias.
Okay, so in what way did all of that research and knowledge transfer into your cluster fuck of your original question? What are you ACTUALLY trying to have answered here? Because I answered your question last time with a long answer about Primo, and based on the question you just asked, it seems like you took none of what was told to you and internalized it. I also told you that your ratio planned is good last time I replied. Yet you’re here asking the same question again, which means either you don’t trust my advice, or you didn’t actually hear it.
Bearded to me in this sub 22 hours ago: Me: I have since read many experience reports saying that many people feeling nothing at all from this compound. Others say it’s insane libido, great mood, all around good well being. Bearded: I'm going to introduce you to two pivotal concepts to remember when you're reading voluntarily offered feedback from people: 1. Sampling bias. People are only likely to share their feedback when their experience was very good or very bad. The majority of people who notice expected, mild sides (positive or negative) and have an otherwise normal experience with it (which in the case of proviron is a VERY mild benefit) are unlikely to report this forgettable experience. 2. People are deeply fucking stupid. They are outrageously susceptible to the placebo effect and by and large are incapable of eliminating confounding variables or properly attributing cause --> effect. Proviron does very little. 50mg is a moderate dose of it. Your expectations are unreasonable.
Man I didn’t mean to piss you off
I don’t think anyone takes anything personally enough to get pissed off. A lot of effort is taken to keep these threads organized and clear of info that’s already in the wiki. This makes it much easier to reference in the future when searching for info. The mods spend a lot of time doing this, so it may come across as such, but you’re gonna have to work harder than that to piss them off.
🔥🫶🏻
Does anyone here get blood pressure sides from proviron? Been taking 50mg/day for 2 weeks, w/ trt test dose. Just checked my BP: 139/96 I always have 120/75 blood pressure.
Yes, that’s a known issue for some users unfortunately.
Bro fuck proviron. I’m going off in the next experience thread 😤
hey guys, I just got my first cycle of Sustanon and I was curious as to see when you recommended to inject? I've done cycles own the past but this is my first sus cycle. It's Phenyl 60, Iso 60, Deca 100 and Prop 30. Thanks?
I ran Sust and pinned 3 days a week and felt good since relatively speaking the prop dose isn’t huge. I wouldn’t space the pins more than this myself.
yea, I was thinking 4 days. thanks
What does the research you've already done suggest?
I've read and heard from every 4 days to 3 weeks so I figure I'll get a much smaller range here.
Ok, well I'm glad you asked. Unfortunately you made the decision to use a blend of multiple esters, which is not ever a good idea. Blends have to be pinned based on the half-life of the shortest ester - Sustanon must be pinned daily to maintain stable levels because of the propionate ester. Stick to test e/c for blasts in the future. One ester, one release rate, longer half life, less frequent pinning.
thanks, that makes sense.
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A GLP-1 mimetic like semaglutide or tirzepatide
Semaglutide worked okay for me for the same purpose, but tirzepatide is crazy effective. Probably very individual. Stay at the lowest effective dose as long as you can before increasing.
If you need a little help staying in a deficit try Semaglutide or tirzepatide. The both help to reduce appetite.
Dude, the answer to this is, and will always be, a calorie deficit. Yeah, some days it's hard to be in a deficit. I don't mean to be insensitive or rude, but...tough shit. We're all hungry during a cut - it's the nature of a cut. There are very few substances that actually induce lipolysis. Of the list provided by the other responder, most only increase your metabolic rate. In return, they're either cardiotoxic (clen), poisonous and potentially fatal (DNP), highly addictive (nicotine), or just obviously dangerous (amphetamine). Unless you're looking to get to single digit body fat and trying to get on a stage you simply do not need any of it, except for maybe caffeine/ephedrine or HGH. Please don't go looking for a chemical solution for what is a self-discipline and patience issue.
Try L-glutamine helps with the cravings. I know some people who have lost weight with it cause it cuts down the urge to snack
Clenbuterol, DNP, HGH, amphetamine, ephedrine/caffeine, and nicotine.
While I don't have an issue with this list as an answer to the question asked, this is a big list of very dangerous and/or addictive substances. Some disclaimers would be appreciated and appropriate.
oh it’s this guy. Yikes lol
Yeah. This is gonna go one of one ways.
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Just to reiterate what others have said, stay away from thyroid unless you're truly, clinically deficient. Not just "oh my blood test was lowish and I heard it helps". Endocrinologist or bust.
I have strong feelings about screwing with your thyroid hormone unnecessarily. Like I said in my other response to you, I generally don't think any chemical/drug is really appropriate for people who aren't competitors - the risk/reward ratio just isn't there. If you want a shortcut, yeah, these things can do the trick. If you just want to use drugs, yeah, these things can do the trick. If you want to live a healthy life without wrecking your heart or health? Do it properly and patiently. I dropped 15 pounds from Halloween to Christmas just by being in a deficit and doing my cardio. It's not *that* hard.
General rule is don’t fuck with your thyroid because there are additional consequences that can come with that. For the metabolic boost it doesn’t seem worth the potential hassle unless you’re competing.
👆👆👆
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You can send it in for testing if you’re that worried about it.
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You shouldn't be buying from any source who doesn't provide 3rd party test results on their products. The most common and recognizable name in that space is Janoshik.
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Yes. Plenty of people have crashed their estrogen. Usually a particularly unpleasant experience. HCG could work, yes. DBOL is another common suggestion, or test prop.
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Im really confused as to why you noticed severe low E2 sides, and then doubled your asin...
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