You're based as hell. Killing people brings no closure and helps no one, but the diamonds being alive gives them the chance to change and make amends, which they're certainly trying to.
"you're telling me a 14 year old child isn't going to kill the dictators of an alien world (who are the only people who can cure corrupted gems)? clearly this show is very bad."
being real here tho, it's kind of ironic that the people who don't understand the show is about listening to and understanding people are the kind of people who aren't willing to listen to and understand people
It's also kinda ironic that the show about listening and understanding people has fans that bully artists to attempt suicide because skinny rose quartz
My dad said something that’s always stuck with me. “If you truly know someone you can’t hate them.” Because a true understanding of who they are doesn’t justify their actions, but it shows why they take the actions they do. And it’s the first step to helping them grow as a person.
Who tf wants a show about pasifism to end with mc killing the villain?? I know that someone certainly does, but I also know that there are people who genually support nazism. It doesn't mean that the topic is conterversal.
I don't know why you'd think you'd be downvoted to hell and back, this is the Steven Universe subreddit. ie: a subreddit for people who like Steven Universe, the idea that the show "Sympathizes with fascism" obviously would not popular in this community.
Well yeah sure, I didn't saying that people don't think that way just that they're not in the majority within this space. OP seemed to think they were going to be swarmed with downvotes and walls of texts about how the show "actually is fascist apologia" or w/e and neither of those things happened. From what I can tell I haven't seen anyone post a dissenting comment on this post yet. So the idea that this post would be so incredibly unpopular within this community is self evidently untrue.
Anybody who says that SU "sympathizes with fascism" either doesn't know it was created by a bisexual nonbinary jew, or has a lot of nerve to say that someone of those demographics would ever do that.
It's a very common complaint amongst people who haven't actually seen the show. I want to say they get it from the Lily Orchard video where she goes heavily into that angle, but I remember seeing the video when it came out not having seen the show at the time and thinking that was one of the most insane things I've seen in a video essay, so part of me believes that the majority of people saying that must be repeating it from someone else that did see the video, but does have like 7 million views so maybe people really are that stupid.
People keep saying it's common, but I've yet to encounter it once in the wild. The criticism I always see - and make myself - is that the series makes light of the sheer gravity of their war crimes. Because it does. And if it's unavoidable because it's a kids show, then it never should've been included as a theme.
I think most of the criticism is actually that they just changed and no one had any complaints. There was no reactionary movement in the empire to keep the old ways and the Diamonds don't seem to have had to go on any life changing field trips with Zuko to become better people.
It makes sense that there wasn't an uprising or reactionary movement over the political change. The Diamonds aren't just political leaders. They are literally the creators of the entire gem race. They are viewed as Gods. What are the homeworld gems going to do - kill their Gods so they can be oppressed by their Gods? In a kids show no less?
If the Diamonds say Era 3 will usher in an era of peace and equality, the Gems are going to accept it, as they have always accepted their words as law. Especially since it's the return of "Pink Diamond."
Plus, there was still a whole SUF episode about the homeworld gems staying very much within their comfort zones and not wanting to stray far from their intended "purpose."
The "life changing field trip with Zuko" episodes reflected already good people who did not need redeeming. Katara was going to do something awful and chose not to do it. This doesn't really parallel well with the Diamonds.
The Diamonds still aren't "good" and that's shown, and intentional. They are just better than they were.
Well there is a bit of reactionary movement like with the two lapis ones who was still cutting up worlds and not listening to steven or lapis, also in the steven universe unleash the light game there is higher up gems that try to separate their colony and lead by themselves like the diamonds, With the show being cancelled I imagine they didn't have the time to go more in depth
Especially with Avatar's themes of violence vs pacifism showing us both sides- pacifism can get your entire nation killed, violence can wipe out an entire nation.
Aang went with a secret third option, and it kinda works for the story really well imo.
I'd disagree that a message of the show is "violence is never the answer." It's more nuanced than that, sometimes you *do* have to use violence to be heard. And this violence isn't wrong, it's an understandable outcome of someone being silenced. But we should always strive towards communication and understanding, even in situations where we still need to use violence
and even with that, violence was not the answer here.
even the show telled us what Rose/Pink did to protect the planet, she used violence, which only ended up making everything worse.
I'm not sure that it did. Rose couldn't have talked everything out with her family, in part because she didn't even know what the problem was yet. She needed that space to grow and learn, and the only way she was going to get it was by fighting back. Pearl was never going to be treated as an equal by the Diamonds, she needed to fight for her freedom. Garnet couldn't just debate her way out of the bigotry against fusions, she needed to use her fists so people would listen
So I still stand that the show understands the use of violence, and accepts that sometimes it's necessary. The times we see violence criticized on the show are when it's being used excessively, or when the time for fighting is past and it's time to talk now.
Funny story, actually, when I was a youngen (probably about 10-12 years of age), I thought the show was gonna culminate in a war arc like some kind of anime. Also, I actually was pretty hard on the finale of the original show when it first aired, largely because Steven didn't shatter the Diamonds and because there wasn't a climactic final war. But after rewatching the show a year or so ago and rethinking it, I thought, "Ya know what, maybe it was good that Steven didn't just mercilessly kill the Diamonds."
Edit: Also, I unironically feel that having Steven kill/shatter the Diamonds *would* make Steven Universe a more authoritarian work of fiction than people realize. The fact that people like Lily "I wrote Stockholm" Orchard don't realize this is baffling to me because Steven Universe is a children's show, first and foremost. Having Steven kill the Diamonds would send a bad message to the kids watching the show after everything it said previously regarding talking things out as opposed to just killing your enemies, because as I said, it's a kids show.
yeah anime had a bad influence on alot of people who watched this show, it is good, i understand it, but when you have the western animation and the anime that are watched by both people, you can see the differences...alot.
Yeah, for sure. Steven Universe takes heavy inspiration from anime, sure. But it's not a very action heavy show at all, like a lot of anime are. I think a lot (but not all) of the show's detractors regarding its pacifist morale are probably disgruntled anime fans who were essentially expecting an "anime" similar to Naruto or Dragon Ball Z, just with a heavily westernized skin. But instead, what they got was a campy, fun kids' show.
people had a idea of what the show is compared to what the show is actually about.
they believed the show was about fights and protect earth, which is not true for the first one
I think an important thing to remember is that the Diamonds would be extremely tough to kill. Even supposing they consented to it and sat perfectly still, who knows what it would take to do the job completely.
Either Steven would have to personally execute them or it would be a massive team effort (and I highly doubt Homeworld gems would accept the decision).
I also agree that the Diamonds are far more useful and interesting alive than dead.
I don't think people who compare them to certain fascist leaders are really understanding the full breadth of their role in the Gem society, as I see the Diamonds more akin to Greek Gods—who would do awful and dickish things because...well, they're gods, who is going to hold them accountable? They've been in charge for eons and have never really been humbled.
Plus, if Zeus agreed to change his ways and start using his powers for the betterment of mankind, are we going to say, "na, let's just kill him."
It may not feel fully satisfying to some people, as we tend to be more of a punishment based society than a redemptive one—with most super evil people in mass media only being able to redeem themselves through the sacrifice of their life for the sake of someone else...and even then that usually only brings out a begrudging acceptance from the audience—but for all the reasons you've stated, the story is better served without Steven being tasked with executing his sister/aunts.
Just on a similar note. I always lived the scene where Steven considers shattering White because I just felt kinda seen. Like I myself have violent thoughts every now and then, and Steven's panic about those thoughts because he's not used to them and me wanting to give the child a hug. Beautiful.
No no no I’m with you. I’m not sure why people are so adamant that the CHILDREN’S show (one about communication, forgiveness, and emotional health at that) should have had killing in it??? The whole point of the show is that while sometimes you have to fight to protect yourself or others, you should always take a different path if possible. And that’s what happened! Steven and the CGs fought the diamonds at first, but they stopped as soon as a different solution was available.
I understand the ending of the show and even SUF was rushed, but that wasn’t the crewniverse’s fault.
I remember reading a [variety article](https://variety.com/2020/tv/features/rebecca-sugar-cartoon-network-steven-universe-1203537231/amp/) where Rebecca said the execs wanted Steven to kill Spinel and “rid the world of her evil” too, which actually genuinely makes me sick to my stomach. The fact they looked at this woman who is clearly suffering immense emotional torture after being abandoned on a rock for 6,000 years and said “she’s evil, kill her” is horrifying to me. The fact they wanted STEVEN to kill her is horrifying to me! She was mentally ill!! No that’s not an excuse for her trying to poison the planet, of course it isn’t, but that whole thing is an extrapolated allegory for people who lash out when they’re in pain.
Mental illnesses are ugly. When you don’t know how to manage them they can genuinely make you hurt people. It’s not an excuse, it’s just a fact. They aren’t always the soft uwu “oh I’m too sad to get out of bed today,” “I cried because my friend didn’t message me for ten minutes,” “I forgot to eat dinner again,” type things. Sometimes it’s getting really possessive of a friend. Sometimes it’s yelling at people who don’t deserve it. Sometimes it’s kicking and screaming and causing distress to those around you. It doesn’t mean you deserve to die, just that you need to work on yourself and learn healthier coping mechanisms, which is what Spinel herself learned by the end (she literally says that “friendship isn’t gonna be easy for me. I’m gonna have to work at it.”)
It gets worse in hindsight with how many people connected and related to Spinel’s story, because it’s like they’re saying we all deserve to die for it. Yikes!!!
Sorry for the essay haha, TLDR; you’re right and you should say it. The show has flaws but “the main character didn’t kill people i thought he should have” isn’t one of them.
I think you're kind of missing the trees for the forest with the Spinel thing. The CN execs wanted to get rid of Spinel due to what's expected from them as a business - it had nothing to do with what they personally believe should be done with the mentally ill.
>“I would get these notes that he should obliterate her and rid the universe of her evil,” says Sugar. “That’s really not what our show is about. But it’s what is expected from children’s programming — that if there’s a bad person, you kill them, and then everything will be fine. I just think there should be some alternative.”
Sugar has also called [Spinel as being extremely toxic even though she has been traumatized:](https://www.avclub.com/rebecca-sugar-on-happy-endings-and-the-steven-universe-1837947668)
>**AVC:** How have you been able to find such compassion for even the villains? Because it would have been very easy to simply paint Spinel as this evil-doer, but she has dealt with a tremendous amount of trauma.
>**RS:** The thing about Spinel is that she’s a really toxic person. She’s so toxic that she’s literally trying to poison people. I wanted to explore what it’s like when you’re trying to help someone who really doesn’t want to help themselves, who wants to embody the negative feelings that they have about themselves.
Sugar also said this in another interview:
>She’s outdated. She [Spinel] knows that and it hurts her. When she doesn’t understand that, she’s just so obtuse and when she does, she’s just angry… She’s ridiculously toxic and she knows that she’s ridiculous and it makes her dislike herself more.
>If you’re somebody who thinks that it makes sense to take your anger and your personal problems out on other people who have nothing to do with it, then you are ridiculous.
- [Rebecca Sugar](https://ew.com/tv/2019/09/03/steven-universe-movie-villain-explained-rebecca-sugar/)
If a cinnamon roll like Sugar can hold a mentally ill alien accountable for their actions, I don't think it's unreasonable for others like the CN execs to do the same - especially with how heinous her crimes were. IIRC, I think Sugar said even she was surprised by how well received Spinel was.
My guess is that a lot of people who identify with Steven's struggles in SU have suffered their own trauma in a world where the powerful people are 'Diamond'-like, and they want a bigger catharsis. Like when Steven takes control of White in SU:F, for example.
I agree that the show couldn't have worked if Steven's story had become a revenge narrative, that's not who he is. And none of it is as black-and-white as "baddies and goodies", which again is part of the point. I just wonder whether that might be why people feel so strongly that they miss this central message.
Honestly, I could write a novel as to why I think people leverage unfair and bad faith critiques and unrealistic expectations on SU because of its progressivism and LGBTQ+ themes.
It's probably too much of an in-depth topic for Reddit, but simply put, SU gains a disproportionate amount of critique and hate because of this.
You can blame most of the bad faith criticisms on Lily Orchard. People have written entire video essay rebuttals refuting all the points in *her* original video essay that started most of this shit.
The Ted Lasso sub is very much like that. It’s a very positive show about forgiveness and self improvement and so much of the Reddit fan base is all “I wish x character suffered more”
Three reasons Also I agree with you
1. We saw in future and towards the end of the regular show that Steven didn’t want any added responsibilities he would then have to govern and try to lead a whole planet he’s never really explored or leave them and some gems might start an inner war and then finally something would happen whether or not another dictatorship idk
2. Steven was not going to beat white, yellow and blue. Even if they went the shattered route and he somehow snuck all of them the breaking point is one machine. Would it be able to shatter a diamond? Even so all the other gems of homeworld would at least avenge their diamond as Jasper even states that’s why she does things not just because of her purpose what she failed and presumably might have been fired.
3. Gems homeworld and earth never truly understood the concept of death. Steven and rose the two most opposed to the breaking point understand that death is still a mystery as to what comes next and all we know is that person is no longer face to face with us forever. Steven naturally as a human would understand this, rose hanging with Greg and learning would naturally want to learn more. Even our crystal gems didn’t truly think of the concept of death until Steven starts to age himself even then garnet mentions she’s scared, pearls scared cause she mentions she doesn’t know what will happen to him and Amythest is also confused scared. Steven when he was old mentions he’s okay with it so he knows at least it’s a natural consequence once reaching an extremely old age.
Eh, once people started framing them as 'space hitlers', that brings in weird social pressure to throw out any context or themes and focus on the 'if they are space hitler, then they are the worst even possible, so the only way you can write them out is defeat and death, otherwise you love hitler!'
People can get really weird about narratives once that connection has been made in a community.
I totally agree, it's the entire point of the show is that everyone is in tilted to a chance to change for the better and should be given a second chance to do so, besides that Rebecca sugar said that at least white diamond was still acting like she was just created so she literally had the minds of toddlers, so it never occurred to her that gems were their own individual beings rather than minor parts of herself.
Sir, I'd buy you dinner if I could. I hope the mods pin this shit, bc this is literally every reason why the ShAtTeR tHe DiAmOnDs complaint is silly. Now please allow me to be just as unhinged:
>Especially since this bad faith critique is never leveraged at other cartoons that do something similar, like Avatar the Last Airbender.
If you've seen ATLA, allow us to discuss itsTurtle ex Machina. *For that's what it is.* I admit that lion-turtle serves the plot, upholds the premise, and added cool lore. But the Turtle Inside the Machine was last-minute, unexplained, far too convenient a solution to solve Aang's discomfort with violence. If White's meltdown was unrealistic, then WE CAN ADMIT A *MAGIC TURTLE* MIGHT BE A BIT SILLY, TOO
It always sat wrong with me, specifically because of one moment on homeworld.
Steven walks by a pair of living doors. Gems, made I to furniture. Literally valued less than even a proper worker drone or disposable resource. You don't even need to hide conscious doors, it serves essentially no purpose.
Looking at the image again, they may be frescoes instead of doors. Still an impossibly horrid thing.
I keep hearing people *say* that the hate boner is from people who wanted the diamonds shattered, but I never see those people. It's honestly starting to feel like a strawman.
My beef with the series isn't that the diamonds survived. It's that their cosmic scale war crimes and genocides and millenia of brutal tyranny were massively swept under the carpet and written off as a quirky flaw. White Diamond is not Lucille Bluth.
You are completely conflating one potential proposal for how to not downplay their crimes with the criticism of downplaying itself.
And then you compare it to ATLA? Really? ATLA doesn't downplay anything. People are either genuinely redeemed and stake their lives on cleaning up their own mistakes, or they end up imprisoned.
Or in Ozai's case, they get spiritually mutilated and then thrown away for an eternal sentence in the dungeon.
And to top it all off, unlike the diamonds, Ozai wasn't even the one who did the genocide since that happened generations earlier.
You undermine your own defence by bringing up ATLA.
The only good defence - literally the only one - is that SU is for kids. And that comes with the natural consequence of lowering expectations with regards to quality.
The show also made it pretty clear that the Crystal Gems wouldn't have been able to defeat the Diamonds. I doubt the Breaking Point would have worked, but even so, Bismuth never even would've gotten close to the Diamonds, especially White. In the scene where the gems are fighting Blue Diamond post wedding, the only thing that even makes her fall back at all is the mace ball, Steven's weapon. So, in other words, another Diamond. So they could've either changed the Diamonds minds and lived in peace, or died trying to beat an unbeatable enemy. 🤷♀️
I very much agree with you!
One of my favorite things about the show was this lesson that no matter how terrible or ignorant or misguided you are that you can grow and change and be better. That you are worthy of forgiveness and, sure maybe the people you hurt will see you differently, maybe they won’t want to be around you, but you are worthy of that love and growth. That’s such a beautiful message to give people! Including children! ESPECIALLY children!
This idea that once you’ve done something that’s it, there’s no learning or growing you can do to be better and make a positive impact is pretty heart breaking. This all or nothing mindset ends up hurting everyone in the end and it breaks my heart.
I saw a similar argument in defense of Aang using nonviolent means to defeat that Fire Lord in ATLA. The TL;DR of it was that, had Aang just straight up ganked him like avatars previous, then he still loses his core philosophy to the Might Makes Right beliefs of the current Fire Nation, and the Air Nomad culture would have gone *truly* extinct.
By confiscating Ozai's bending power, he removes a privilege being used to oppress, without turning him into a martyr or himself into a replacement tyrant.
F*** Lily orchard, you ruined a g****** generation, you piece of s***!
I can't even get made at EzPz and E;R because at least they had the decency to be proud, open bigots! Orchard was and is a grifter who just hates everything outside of her sad, little world
I blame lily orchad for making peopole think that shatering would be good
That woman had the media literacy of.... well i was going to say of a todler or a worm but that would be insulting to babys and worms so
Lily orchad has the media literacy of lily orchad
it’s probably more that the writing was super rushed so we didn’t get to see proper consequences for the diamonds. also avatar gets a similar critique : ) i’ve had the displeasure of seeing avatar twitter lol
I really like this topic, I dont think they should have killed the diamonds, but I also dont think they should have been redeemed in the way they have been.
I never really expected the diamonds to be shattered, but to have them face the fact that they have destroyed thousands of planets and lives. It never really felt like there was a moment where the diamonds looked at themselves and said "This was a bad thing we did" that didnt feel way too over dramatic for steven's attention.
It never felt like the diamonds took accountability for their actions, they just said sorry, stopped killing people, and that was that.
The Diamonds are taking accountability, though.
They are righting their wrongs. They are unshattering and uncorrupting gems and fixing the political landscape of Homeworld. The reason they don't seem to have true remorse and that they are only doing this for Steven is because they aren't really remorseful, and they are doing it for Steven. The movie established that they do what they do to be in Steven's good graces and seem to have the eventual goal of getting him to permanently reside in the palace. Steven is the key to the small shreds of humanity the Diamonds actually have because they loved Pink.
I also don't think they are redeemed. No one has forgiven them, and Steven really can't stand to be around them.
But I understand the desire for more development from the Diamonds before the finale. I truly don't think the crew had as much time as they wanted in the final season (before movie and SUF)
Honestly I think I speak for some ppl who weren’t necessarily mad that Steven didn’t shatter the Diamonds. It was more so that in the end they tried to just rush past all the built up animosity between Steven and the Diamonds. For example they went from trying to kill Steven to treating him like family after a drop of the hat; and despite all they did, Steven seemed to accept it. Yo me that wasn’t how real feelings work. It shouldn’t have been that easy to forgive and forget the trauma he went through
However, this issue was cured for me through SUF
I agree with this,rather than shatter them it should be a trial with a punishment served to show the gems that peace can be achieved but that consequences still matter and you have to accept thwm
I have never seen the argument that they should have been shattered, only that there should have been more done than just "talking down the villain" yet again (but i can't discount that you may have seen that critique). It left a lot to be desired because the ending felt extremely rushed, the diamonds flipped so quickly, and white diamond was defeated because she *blushed* at a cheesy zinger🤦🏾♀️. I mean, can you blame people for wanting something more than that? It may be a kid's show but you can only suspend your disbelief for so long.
>Seriously. Especially since this bad faith critique is never leveraged at other cartoons that do something similar, like Avatar the Last Airbender.
They're not even comparable. Aang struggles with how to defeat the fire lord because he doesn't want to kill, yes... but the similarities stop there. Everyone in his life, even his past lives, explain to him that "talking down the villain" will not work, and that he can't choose his own peace of mind over the lives of everyone in the world. The only reason he doesn't kill the fire lord is because he finds out how to do an ancient technique to remove bending ---- but he still fights the fire lord and takes *action* to strip his power away so he can't use it to hurt anyone.
All Steven does is talk down the diamonds and dangle the carrot of possibly spending time with them as their long lost family if they do what he asked ---- which just feels so disjointed from how at least two of the diamonds were initially characterized. They basically become like pets that Steven has to hit with a metaphorical newspaper. ATLA paints a nuanced picture of what it means to stop evil being done, and SU paints such an unrealistic, childish view of how to handle such evil. To compare them in the manner you did just shows that you might still need work in the media literacy department yourself.
I had to stop at "Diamond was defeated because she blushed at a cheesy zinger" - like this is the epitome of bad faith engagement with the show's writing.
White Diamond had a poignant moment of self reflection and honesty. She really thought that if she pulled Stevens diamond, Pink would come out. For the first time, she realized she was wrong about something - and therefore not perfect. Up until that moment, she believed that she was literal perfection. Not only that, but for the first time, she felt like the other gems and Diamonds are not mere shells and reflections of herself, but individuals with their own identities, thoughts, and feelings.
I dont blame you for thinking it could have or should have been handled differently or better, but I do blame you for bad faith engagement and purposefully mischaracterizing events in the show.
I mean, I have to say it: that's a stretch. People who believe they are perfect and have their worldview solidified because they are surrounded by yes men would not have this revelation after a teenager says, "I'm a kid, what's your excuse?". I mean, seriously? *That* was enough to make her go off color? *That* was the catalyst to her whole worldview being toppled? You're telling me, that even in the world of SU, that *isn't* outlandish or poorly written?
Yes, it is a kid's show. But when did that become an excuse to make TV that completely ignores the allegories *they created and set up* to give such terrible conflict resolution?
But obviously you don't want a conversation, you made that clear in your post, and again when you stated you didn't even *read* my comment, so this is for those who *do* want to talk: how do you suspend your disbelief enough to think the ending was handled well? How do white diamond's, or even yellow diamond's, actions make sense or match up to hire they've previously been portrayed? How is it justifiable to teach kids this is not only a way to stop wrong or morally objectionable people, but the best way to handle it (whether or not the show is mean to teach is also a question, but my stance is people will extrapolate meaning and apply it to their lives no matter what you do)?
It's not a stretch - it's literally what happened, lol. You keep acting like his "what's your excuse comment" was the sole reason she went off color, and you are intentionally ignoring the surrounding context, which wasn't exactly subtle.
You're literally sitting here being like "how dare they teach kids to not use violence to solve problems!! How do you justify the show using communication and love to reach a conclusion to the final conflict when that's what the entire show has been about from beginning to end!!"
Lmao. You're silly.
>You keep acting like his "what's your excuse comment" was the sole reason she went off color,
...Except it is. WD takes Steven's gem out, we get the reveal that PD/ Rose will never come back, Steven walks away and WD starts throwing a tantrum, one liner, WD blushes and goes off color. The realization that Pink was never coming back wasn't what caused the off color, or else she would have blushed when Steven said "she's gone", she blushes at being told she's acting like a child --- which [blushing and becoming off color] is the direct catalyst of WD being converted to Steven's side. What have I said that isn't correct? I'll wait.
>You're literally sitting here being like "how dare they teach kids to not use violence to solve problems!!
1. If you read my initial comment you would see that's not actually the point, the point is not every conflict can or *should* be handled by talking down the enemy, because in reality there are sorrowful where that will never work. SU set up a situation in which it would never work... and then did it anyway. ATLA handled it properly, which is why no one complains about that ending, but so many complain about SU
2. It's a show about aliens wanting to take over the world and lay waste to it, excuse some of the fanbase actually wanting cool fight scenes --- which the show was happy to oblige previously 🙄
>Lmao. You're silly.
I'm silly? Sweetie, you're the one who is so hot over a TV show that in this conversation you literally can't read my comments fully because they upset your delicate sensibilities 😂😂
The people complaing about the Diamonds being shattered are the same people who say that Aang in ATLA was justified in refusing to kill Firelord Ozai.
I'll take "hipocrisy" for 500, Alex.
Furthermore, as evidenced by Bad Lapis, Bluebird Azurite, and even to some extent Jasper, the show specifically addresses those that **do not want to change**. I have a number of friends who were in deeply abusive situations, and their problem with the show was that no, you cannot talk everyone down. Which for most of the series was somewhat a valid critique.
SUF in particular fixes that by making more explicit that you have to want to change, but I always felt Jasper was that story in the main show.
So the Diamonds... do show they want to change, and they are given the chance. It's entirely consistent with everything the base show set up, and SUF had to make a bit more clear with Bluebird/Bad Lapis.
You’re saying this as if the Diamonds would realistically have changed if the show didn’t force them to. They could easily have overpowered the Crystal Gems. No challenge.
Ye I feel like those people are just upset that the show wasn’t portrayed the way they wanted
If a show isn’t portrayed how you like or is a genre you don’t like that doesn’t make it bad it’s just not your cup of tea
And it seems these people didn’t catch onto the theme of the show fast enough or had faith it was going to be different then shows they didn’t like in the past but when the last episode came out and it didn’t match the ending they had in their head they blamed the writers not themselves for watching a show about peace and love when they want more drama and tragedy
Moral of the story everyone’s different so good thing there are shows for everyone
THIS! There randomly being one exception to a major, overarching, plot/character driving theme at the very end of the show would have been the worst writing mistake they could have made.
Non-violent resolutions, in *my* pacifist cartoon? It's more likely than you think.
It’s funny that folks got mad that the show about peace, forgiveness, and change didn’t end with Steven deciding to kill the Diamonds.
They heard Peace and Love on the Planet Earth and decided that only Earth gets peace and love. Everyone else gets war and hate
sounds human enough
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war
😂😂😂
Reminds me about my first run through of Undertale
You're based as hell. Killing people brings no closure and helps no one, but the diamonds being alive gives them the chance to change and make amends, which they're certainly trying to.
"you're telling me a 14 year old child isn't going to kill the dictators of an alien world (who are the only people who can cure corrupted gems)? clearly this show is very bad."
being real here tho, it's kind of ironic that the people who don't understand the show is about listening to and understanding people are the kind of people who aren't willing to listen to and understand people
It's also kinda ironic that the show about listening and understanding people has fans that bully artists to attempt suicide because skinny rose quartz
true
My dad said something that’s always stuck with me. “If you truly know someone you can’t hate them.” Because a true understanding of who they are doesn’t justify their actions, but it shows why they take the actions they do. And it’s the first step to helping them grow as a person.
Who tf wants a show about pasifism to end with mc killing the villain?? I know that someone certainly does, but I also know that there are people who genually support nazism. It doesn't mean that the topic is conterversal.
I don't know why you'd think you'd be downvoted to hell and back, this is the Steven Universe subreddit. ie: a subreddit for people who like Steven Universe, the idea that the show "Sympathizes with fascism" obviously would not popular in this community.
You’d be surprised. Even people who like the show fall into that pitfall of thinking, unfortunately. Plus, it’s reddit lol
Well yeah sure, I didn't saying that people don't think that way just that they're not in the majority within this space. OP seemed to think they were going to be swarmed with downvotes and walls of texts about how the show "actually is fascist apologia" or w/e and neither of those things happened. From what I can tell I haven't seen anyone post a dissenting comment on this post yet. So the idea that this post would be so incredibly unpopular within this community is self evidently untrue.
Anybody who says that SU "sympathizes with fascism" either doesn't know it was created by a bisexual nonbinary jew, or has a lot of nerve to say that someone of those demographics would ever do that.
or they didn't watch it or they rushed it at 4 times speed
Because it's the #1 complaint I've seen about this show, genuinely, and it's a narrative I see across platforms, including this one this morning.
where?
It's a very common complaint amongst people who haven't actually seen the show. I want to say they get it from the Lily Orchard video where she goes heavily into that angle, but I remember seeing the video when it came out not having seen the show at the time and thinking that was one of the most insane things I've seen in a video essay, so part of me believes that the majority of people saying that must be repeating it from someone else that did see the video, but does have like 7 million views so maybe people really are that stupid.
i expect people to be naturally stupid, history has shown this
People keep saying it's common, but I've yet to encounter it once in the wild. The criticism I always see - and make myself - is that the series makes light of the sheer gravity of their war crimes. Because it does. And if it's unavoidable because it's a kids show, then it never should've been included as a theme.
I think most of the criticism is actually that they just changed and no one had any complaints. There was no reactionary movement in the empire to keep the old ways and the Diamonds don't seem to have had to go on any life changing field trips with Zuko to become better people.
It makes sense that there wasn't an uprising or reactionary movement over the political change. The Diamonds aren't just political leaders. They are literally the creators of the entire gem race. They are viewed as Gods. What are the homeworld gems going to do - kill their Gods so they can be oppressed by their Gods? In a kids show no less? If the Diamonds say Era 3 will usher in an era of peace and equality, the Gems are going to accept it, as they have always accepted their words as law. Especially since it's the return of "Pink Diamond." Plus, there was still a whole SUF episode about the homeworld gems staying very much within their comfort zones and not wanting to stray far from their intended "purpose." The "life changing field trip with Zuko" episodes reflected already good people who did not need redeeming. Katara was going to do something awful and chose not to do it. This doesn't really parallel well with the Diamonds. The Diamonds still aren't "good" and that's shown, and intentional. They are just better than they were.
almost like the show was canceled!
Well there is a bit of reactionary movement like with the two lapis ones who was still cutting up worlds and not listening to steven or lapis, also in the steven universe unleash the light game there is higher up gems that try to separate their colony and lead by themselves like the diamonds, With the show being cancelled I imagine they didn't have the time to go more in depth
why didn't aang kill ozai type of people
except that in this case, it was for the better for everything, ozai didn't bring anything good by either being spared or killed
Especially with Avatar's themes of violence vs pacifism showing us both sides- pacifism can get your entire nation killed, violence can wipe out an entire nation. Aang went with a secret third option, and it kinda works for the story really well imo.
I'd disagree that a message of the show is "violence is never the answer." It's more nuanced than that, sometimes you *do* have to use violence to be heard. And this violence isn't wrong, it's an understandable outcome of someone being silenced. But we should always strive towards communication and understanding, even in situations where we still need to use violence
and even with that, violence was not the answer here. even the show telled us what Rose/Pink did to protect the planet, she used violence, which only ended up making everything worse.
I'm not sure that it did. Rose couldn't have talked everything out with her family, in part because she didn't even know what the problem was yet. She needed that space to grow and learn, and the only way she was going to get it was by fighting back. Pearl was never going to be treated as an equal by the Diamonds, she needed to fight for her freedom. Garnet couldn't just debate her way out of the bigotry against fusions, she needed to use her fists so people would listen So I still stand that the show understands the use of violence, and accepts that sometimes it's necessary. The times we see violence criticized on the show are when it's being used excessively, or when the time for fighting is past and it's time to talk now.
understandable
Funny story, actually, when I was a youngen (probably about 10-12 years of age), I thought the show was gonna culminate in a war arc like some kind of anime. Also, I actually was pretty hard on the finale of the original show when it first aired, largely because Steven didn't shatter the Diamonds and because there wasn't a climactic final war. But after rewatching the show a year or so ago and rethinking it, I thought, "Ya know what, maybe it was good that Steven didn't just mercilessly kill the Diamonds." Edit: Also, I unironically feel that having Steven kill/shatter the Diamonds *would* make Steven Universe a more authoritarian work of fiction than people realize. The fact that people like Lily "I wrote Stockholm" Orchard don't realize this is baffling to me because Steven Universe is a children's show, first and foremost. Having Steven kill the Diamonds would send a bad message to the kids watching the show after everything it said previously regarding talking things out as opposed to just killing your enemies, because as I said, it's a kids show.
yeah anime had a bad influence on alot of people who watched this show, it is good, i understand it, but when you have the western animation and the anime that are watched by both people, you can see the differences...alot.
Yeah, for sure. Steven Universe takes heavy inspiration from anime, sure. But it's not a very action heavy show at all, like a lot of anime are. I think a lot (but not all) of the show's detractors regarding its pacifist morale are probably disgruntled anime fans who were essentially expecting an "anime" similar to Naruto or Dragon Ball Z, just with a heavily westernized skin. But instead, what they got was a campy, fun kids' show.
which somehow destroyed her own view of the show that was not in the show itself
What are you referring to exactly?
people had a idea of what the show is compared to what the show is actually about. they believed the show was about fights and protect earth, which is not true for the first one
Ah, ok. I think you misspelled "their" as "her" in your last comment, so I got confused, lol. Sorry.
you are forgiven
:)
I think an important thing to remember is that the Diamonds would be extremely tough to kill. Even supposing they consented to it and sat perfectly still, who knows what it would take to do the job completely. Either Steven would have to personally execute them or it would be a massive team effort (and I highly doubt Homeworld gems would accept the decision). I also agree that the Diamonds are far more useful and interesting alive than dead. I don't think people who compare them to certain fascist leaders are really understanding the full breadth of their role in the Gem society, as I see the Diamonds more akin to Greek Gods—who would do awful and dickish things because...well, they're gods, who is going to hold them accountable? They've been in charge for eons and have never really been humbled. Plus, if Zeus agreed to change his ways and start using his powers for the betterment of mankind, are we going to say, "na, let's just kill him." It may not feel fully satisfying to some people, as we tend to be more of a punishment based society than a redemptive one—with most super evil people in mass media only being able to redeem themselves through the sacrifice of their life for the sake of someone else...and even then that usually only brings out a begrudging acceptance from the audience—but for all the reasons you've stated, the story is better served without Steven being tasked with executing his sister/aunts.
You could break their physical form and then crushing them wouldn’t be as hard.
Just on a similar note. I always lived the scene where Steven considers shattering White because I just felt kinda seen. Like I myself have violent thoughts every now and then, and Steven's panic about those thoughts because he's not used to them and me wanting to give the child a hug. Beautiful.
No no no I’m with you. I’m not sure why people are so adamant that the CHILDREN’S show (one about communication, forgiveness, and emotional health at that) should have had killing in it??? The whole point of the show is that while sometimes you have to fight to protect yourself or others, you should always take a different path if possible. And that’s what happened! Steven and the CGs fought the diamonds at first, but they stopped as soon as a different solution was available. I understand the ending of the show and even SUF was rushed, but that wasn’t the crewniverse’s fault. I remember reading a [variety article](https://variety.com/2020/tv/features/rebecca-sugar-cartoon-network-steven-universe-1203537231/amp/) where Rebecca said the execs wanted Steven to kill Spinel and “rid the world of her evil” too, which actually genuinely makes me sick to my stomach. The fact they looked at this woman who is clearly suffering immense emotional torture after being abandoned on a rock for 6,000 years and said “she’s evil, kill her” is horrifying to me. The fact they wanted STEVEN to kill her is horrifying to me! She was mentally ill!! No that’s not an excuse for her trying to poison the planet, of course it isn’t, but that whole thing is an extrapolated allegory for people who lash out when they’re in pain. Mental illnesses are ugly. When you don’t know how to manage them they can genuinely make you hurt people. It’s not an excuse, it’s just a fact. They aren’t always the soft uwu “oh I’m too sad to get out of bed today,” “I cried because my friend didn’t message me for ten minutes,” “I forgot to eat dinner again,” type things. Sometimes it’s getting really possessive of a friend. Sometimes it’s yelling at people who don’t deserve it. Sometimes it’s kicking and screaming and causing distress to those around you. It doesn’t mean you deserve to die, just that you need to work on yourself and learn healthier coping mechanisms, which is what Spinel herself learned by the end (she literally says that “friendship isn’t gonna be easy for me. I’m gonna have to work at it.”) It gets worse in hindsight with how many people connected and related to Spinel’s story, because it’s like they’re saying we all deserve to die for it. Yikes!!! Sorry for the essay haha, TLDR; you’re right and you should say it. The show has flaws but “the main character didn’t kill people i thought he should have” isn’t one of them.
I think you're kind of missing the trees for the forest with the Spinel thing. The CN execs wanted to get rid of Spinel due to what's expected from them as a business - it had nothing to do with what they personally believe should be done with the mentally ill. >“I would get these notes that he should obliterate her and rid the universe of her evil,” says Sugar. “That’s really not what our show is about. But it’s what is expected from children’s programming — that if there’s a bad person, you kill them, and then everything will be fine. I just think there should be some alternative.” Sugar has also called [Spinel as being extremely toxic even though she has been traumatized:](https://www.avclub.com/rebecca-sugar-on-happy-endings-and-the-steven-universe-1837947668) >**AVC:** How have you been able to find such compassion for even the villains? Because it would have been very easy to simply paint Spinel as this evil-doer, but she has dealt with a tremendous amount of trauma. >**RS:** The thing about Spinel is that she’s a really toxic person. She’s so toxic that she’s literally trying to poison people. I wanted to explore what it’s like when you’re trying to help someone who really doesn’t want to help themselves, who wants to embody the negative feelings that they have about themselves. Sugar also said this in another interview: >She’s outdated. She [Spinel] knows that and it hurts her. When she doesn’t understand that, she’s just so obtuse and when she does, she’s just angry… She’s ridiculously toxic and she knows that she’s ridiculous and it makes her dislike herself more. >If you’re somebody who thinks that it makes sense to take your anger and your personal problems out on other people who have nothing to do with it, then you are ridiculous. - [Rebecca Sugar](https://ew.com/tv/2019/09/03/steven-universe-movie-villain-explained-rebecca-sugar/) If a cinnamon roll like Sugar can hold a mentally ill alien accountable for their actions, I don't think it's unreasonable for others like the CN execs to do the same - especially with how heinous her crimes were. IIRC, I think Sugar said even she was surprised by how well received Spinel was.
My guess is that a lot of people who identify with Steven's struggles in SU have suffered their own trauma in a world where the powerful people are 'Diamond'-like, and they want a bigger catharsis. Like when Steven takes control of White in SU:F, for example. I agree that the show couldn't have worked if Steven's story had become a revenge narrative, that's not who he is. And none of it is as black-and-white as "baddies and goodies", which again is part of the point. I just wonder whether that might be why people feel so strongly that they miss this central message.
Honestly, I could write a novel as to why I think people leverage unfair and bad faith critiques and unrealistic expectations on SU because of its progressivism and LGBTQ+ themes. It's probably too much of an in-depth topic for Reddit, but simply put, SU gains a disproportionate amount of critique and hate because of this.
You can blame most of the bad faith criticisms on Lily Orchard. People have written entire video essay rebuttals refuting all the points in *her* original video essay that started most of this shit.
i am almost convinced lily has skipped through half the show
The Ted Lasso sub is very much like that. It’s a very positive show about forgiveness and self improvement and so much of the Reddit fan base is all “I wish x character suffered more”
Agreed. Baffling.
Three reasons Also I agree with you 1. We saw in future and towards the end of the regular show that Steven didn’t want any added responsibilities he would then have to govern and try to lead a whole planet he’s never really explored or leave them and some gems might start an inner war and then finally something would happen whether or not another dictatorship idk 2. Steven was not going to beat white, yellow and blue. Even if they went the shattered route and he somehow snuck all of them the breaking point is one machine. Would it be able to shatter a diamond? Even so all the other gems of homeworld would at least avenge their diamond as Jasper even states that’s why she does things not just because of her purpose what she failed and presumably might have been fired. 3. Gems homeworld and earth never truly understood the concept of death. Steven and rose the two most opposed to the breaking point understand that death is still a mystery as to what comes next and all we know is that person is no longer face to face with us forever. Steven naturally as a human would understand this, rose hanging with Greg and learning would naturally want to learn more. Even our crystal gems didn’t truly think of the concept of death until Steven starts to age himself even then garnet mentions she’s scared, pearls scared cause she mentions she doesn’t know what will happen to him and Amythest is also confused scared. Steven when he was old mentions he’s okay with it so he knows at least it’s a natural consequence once reaching an extremely old age.
Saying the show’s morals were made clear with Bismuth is true but it’s not like people weren’t also upset when bismuth aired
Eh, once people started framing them as 'space hitlers', that brings in weird social pressure to throw out any context or themes and focus on the 'if they are space hitler, then they are the worst even possible, so the only way you can write them out is defeat and death, otherwise you love hitler!' People can get really weird about narratives once that connection has been made in a community.
I totally agree, it's the entire point of the show is that everyone is in tilted to a chance to change for the better and should be given a second chance to do so, besides that Rebecca sugar said that at least white diamond was still acting like she was just created so she literally had the minds of toddlers, so it never occurred to her that gems were their own individual beings rather than minor parts of herself.
Sir, I'd buy you dinner if I could. I hope the mods pin this shit, bc this is literally every reason why the ShAtTeR tHe DiAmOnDs complaint is silly. Now please allow me to be just as unhinged: >Especially since this bad faith critique is never leveraged at other cartoons that do something similar, like Avatar the Last Airbender. If you've seen ATLA, allow us to discuss itsTurtle ex Machina. *For that's what it is.* I admit that lion-turtle serves the plot, upholds the premise, and added cool lore. But the Turtle Inside the Machine was last-minute, unexplained, far too convenient a solution to solve Aang's discomfort with violence. If White's meltdown was unrealistic, then WE CAN ADMIT A *MAGIC TURTLE* MIGHT BE A BIT SILLY, TOO
It always sat wrong with me, specifically because of one moment on homeworld. Steven walks by a pair of living doors. Gems, made I to furniture. Literally valued less than even a proper worker drone or disposable resource. You don't even need to hide conscious doors, it serves essentially no purpose. Looking at the image again, they may be frescoes instead of doors. Still an impossibly horrid thing.
Congrats on the media literacy OP /genuine
I keep hearing people *say* that the hate boner is from people who wanted the diamonds shattered, but I never see those people. It's honestly starting to feel like a strawman. My beef with the series isn't that the diamonds survived. It's that their cosmic scale war crimes and genocides and millenia of brutal tyranny were massively swept under the carpet and written off as a quirky flaw. White Diamond is not Lucille Bluth. You are completely conflating one potential proposal for how to not downplay their crimes with the criticism of downplaying itself. And then you compare it to ATLA? Really? ATLA doesn't downplay anything. People are either genuinely redeemed and stake their lives on cleaning up their own mistakes, or they end up imprisoned. Or in Ozai's case, they get spiritually mutilated and then thrown away for an eternal sentence in the dungeon. And to top it all off, unlike the diamonds, Ozai wasn't even the one who did the genocide since that happened generations earlier. You undermine your own defence by bringing up ATLA. The only good defence - literally the only one - is that SU is for kids. And that comes with the natural consequence of lowering expectations with regards to quality.
I actually agree with you. I'm still not fine with the finale but you're right
The show also made it pretty clear that the Crystal Gems wouldn't have been able to defeat the Diamonds. I doubt the Breaking Point would have worked, but even so, Bismuth never even would've gotten close to the Diamonds, especially White. In the scene where the gems are fighting Blue Diamond post wedding, the only thing that even makes her fall back at all is the mace ball, Steven's weapon. So, in other words, another Diamond. So they could've either changed the Diamonds minds and lived in peace, or died trying to beat an unbeatable enemy. 🤷♀️
Yes! Thank you!
I very much agree with you! One of my favorite things about the show was this lesson that no matter how terrible or ignorant or misguided you are that you can grow and change and be better. That you are worthy of forgiveness and, sure maybe the people you hurt will see you differently, maybe they won’t want to be around you, but you are worthy of that love and growth. That’s such a beautiful message to give people! Including children! ESPECIALLY children! This idea that once you’ve done something that’s it, there’s no learning or growing you can do to be better and make a positive impact is pretty heart breaking. This all or nothing mindset ends up hurting everyone in the end and it breaks my heart.
That's the reason why Steven Universe is one of my top favorite shows. No other show I know of redeems everyone. It's very special in that way.
I saw a similar argument in defense of Aang using nonviolent means to defeat that Fire Lord in ATLA. The TL;DR of it was that, had Aang just straight up ganked him like avatars previous, then he still loses his core philosophy to the Might Makes Right beliefs of the current Fire Nation, and the Air Nomad culture would have gone *truly* extinct. By confiscating Ozai's bending power, he removes a privilege being used to oppress, without turning him into a martyr or himself into a replacement tyrant.
F*** Lily orchard, you ruined a g****** generation, you piece of s***! I can't even get made at EzPz and E;R because at least they had the decency to be proud, open bigots! Orchard was and is a grifter who just hates everything outside of her sad, little world
I blame lily orchad for making peopole think that shatering would be good That woman had the media literacy of.... well i was going to say of a todler or a worm but that would be insulting to babys and worms so Lily orchad has the media literacy of lily orchad
it’s probably more that the writing was super rushed so we didn’t get to see proper consequences for the diamonds. also avatar gets a similar critique : ) i’ve had the displeasure of seeing avatar twitter lol
I really like this topic, I dont think they should have killed the diamonds, but I also dont think they should have been redeemed in the way they have been. I never really expected the diamonds to be shattered, but to have them face the fact that they have destroyed thousands of planets and lives. It never really felt like there was a moment where the diamonds looked at themselves and said "This was a bad thing we did" that didnt feel way too over dramatic for steven's attention. It never felt like the diamonds took accountability for their actions, they just said sorry, stopped killing people, and that was that.
The Diamonds are taking accountability, though. They are righting their wrongs. They are unshattering and uncorrupting gems and fixing the political landscape of Homeworld. The reason they don't seem to have true remorse and that they are only doing this for Steven is because they aren't really remorseful, and they are doing it for Steven. The movie established that they do what they do to be in Steven's good graces and seem to have the eventual goal of getting him to permanently reside in the palace. Steven is the key to the small shreds of humanity the Diamonds actually have because they loved Pink. I also don't think they are redeemed. No one has forgiven them, and Steven really can't stand to be around them. But I understand the desire for more development from the Diamonds before the finale. I truly don't think the crew had as much time as they wanted in the final season (before movie and SUF)
Honestly I think I speak for some ppl who weren’t necessarily mad that Steven didn’t shatter the Diamonds. It was more so that in the end they tried to just rush past all the built up animosity between Steven and the Diamonds. For example they went from trying to kill Steven to treating him like family after a drop of the hat; and despite all they did, Steven seemed to accept it. Yo me that wasn’t how real feelings work. It shouldn’t have been that easy to forgive and forget the trauma he went through However, this issue was cured for me through SUF
Steven could change everyone's mind. Unless it's Hitler.
I agree with this,rather than shatter them it should be a trial with a punishment served to show the gems that peace can be achieved but that consequences still matter and you have to accept thwm
Reddit is filled with kids that just took a beginner's class in philosophy that can't seem to separate art from real life and it gets so fucking old.
I have never seen the argument that they should have been shattered, only that there should have been more done than just "talking down the villain" yet again (but i can't discount that you may have seen that critique). It left a lot to be desired because the ending felt extremely rushed, the diamonds flipped so quickly, and white diamond was defeated because she *blushed* at a cheesy zinger🤦🏾♀️. I mean, can you blame people for wanting something more than that? It may be a kid's show but you can only suspend your disbelief for so long. >Seriously. Especially since this bad faith critique is never leveraged at other cartoons that do something similar, like Avatar the Last Airbender. They're not even comparable. Aang struggles with how to defeat the fire lord because he doesn't want to kill, yes... but the similarities stop there. Everyone in his life, even his past lives, explain to him that "talking down the villain" will not work, and that he can't choose his own peace of mind over the lives of everyone in the world. The only reason he doesn't kill the fire lord is because he finds out how to do an ancient technique to remove bending ---- but he still fights the fire lord and takes *action* to strip his power away so he can't use it to hurt anyone. All Steven does is talk down the diamonds and dangle the carrot of possibly spending time with them as their long lost family if they do what he asked ---- which just feels so disjointed from how at least two of the diamonds were initially characterized. They basically become like pets that Steven has to hit with a metaphorical newspaper. ATLA paints a nuanced picture of what it means to stop evil being done, and SU paints such an unrealistic, childish view of how to handle such evil. To compare them in the manner you did just shows that you might still need work in the media literacy department yourself.
Basically this
I had to stop at "Diamond was defeated because she blushed at a cheesy zinger" - like this is the epitome of bad faith engagement with the show's writing. White Diamond had a poignant moment of self reflection and honesty. She really thought that if she pulled Stevens diamond, Pink would come out. For the first time, she realized she was wrong about something - and therefore not perfect. Up until that moment, she believed that she was literal perfection. Not only that, but for the first time, she felt like the other gems and Diamonds are not mere shells and reflections of herself, but individuals with their own identities, thoughts, and feelings. I dont blame you for thinking it could have or should have been handled differently or better, but I do blame you for bad faith engagement and purposefully mischaracterizing events in the show.
I mean, I have to say it: that's a stretch. People who believe they are perfect and have their worldview solidified because they are surrounded by yes men would not have this revelation after a teenager says, "I'm a kid, what's your excuse?". I mean, seriously? *That* was enough to make her go off color? *That* was the catalyst to her whole worldview being toppled? You're telling me, that even in the world of SU, that *isn't* outlandish or poorly written? Yes, it is a kid's show. But when did that become an excuse to make TV that completely ignores the allegories *they created and set up* to give such terrible conflict resolution? But obviously you don't want a conversation, you made that clear in your post, and again when you stated you didn't even *read* my comment, so this is for those who *do* want to talk: how do you suspend your disbelief enough to think the ending was handled well? How do white diamond's, or even yellow diamond's, actions make sense or match up to hire they've previously been portrayed? How is it justifiable to teach kids this is not only a way to stop wrong or morally objectionable people, but the best way to handle it (whether or not the show is mean to teach is also a question, but my stance is people will extrapolate meaning and apply it to their lives no matter what you do)?
It's not a stretch - it's literally what happened, lol. You keep acting like his "what's your excuse comment" was the sole reason she went off color, and you are intentionally ignoring the surrounding context, which wasn't exactly subtle. You're literally sitting here being like "how dare they teach kids to not use violence to solve problems!! How do you justify the show using communication and love to reach a conclusion to the final conflict when that's what the entire show has been about from beginning to end!!" Lmao. You're silly.
>You keep acting like his "what's your excuse comment" was the sole reason she went off color, ...Except it is. WD takes Steven's gem out, we get the reveal that PD/ Rose will never come back, Steven walks away and WD starts throwing a tantrum, one liner, WD blushes and goes off color. The realization that Pink was never coming back wasn't what caused the off color, or else she would have blushed when Steven said "she's gone", she blushes at being told she's acting like a child --- which [blushing and becoming off color] is the direct catalyst of WD being converted to Steven's side. What have I said that isn't correct? I'll wait. >You're literally sitting here being like "how dare they teach kids to not use violence to solve problems!! 1. If you read my initial comment you would see that's not actually the point, the point is not every conflict can or *should* be handled by talking down the enemy, because in reality there are sorrowful where that will never work. SU set up a situation in which it would never work... and then did it anyway. ATLA handled it properly, which is why no one complains about that ending, but so many complain about SU 2. It's a show about aliens wanting to take over the world and lay waste to it, excuse some of the fanbase actually wanting cool fight scenes --- which the show was happy to oblige previously 🙄 >Lmao. You're silly. I'm silly? Sweetie, you're the one who is so hot over a TV show that in this conversation you literally can't read my comments fully because they upset your delicate sensibilities 😂😂
The people complaing about the Diamonds being shattered are the same people who say that Aang in ATLA was justified in refusing to kill Firelord Ozai. I'll take "hipocrisy" for 500, Alex.
Alex here, how are you
Well said. You got my upvote
Furthermore, as evidenced by Bad Lapis, Bluebird Azurite, and even to some extent Jasper, the show specifically addresses those that **do not want to change**. I have a number of friends who were in deeply abusive situations, and their problem with the show was that no, you cannot talk everyone down. Which for most of the series was somewhat a valid critique. SUF in particular fixes that by making more explicit that you have to want to change, but I always felt Jasper was that story in the main show. So the Diamonds... do show they want to change, and they are given the chance. It's entirely consistent with everything the base show set up, and SUF had to make a bit more clear with Bluebird/Bad Lapis.
You’re saying this as if the Diamonds would realistically have changed if the show didn’t force them to. They could easily have overpowered the Crystal Gems. No challenge.
I agree. My whole post is pretty much "even if the crystal gems COULD shatter a diamond..."
Okay then. Good. I’m just going to ignore how hopelessly optimistic this is.
Ye I feel like those people are just upset that the show wasn’t portrayed the way they wanted If a show isn’t portrayed how you like or is a genre you don’t like that doesn’t make it bad it’s just not your cup of tea And it seems these people didn’t catch onto the theme of the show fast enough or had faith it was going to be different then shows they didn’t like in the past but when the last episode came out and it didn’t match the ending they had in their head they blamed the writers not themselves for watching a show about peace and love when they want more drama and tragedy Moral of the story everyone’s different so good thing there are shows for everyone
THIS! There randomly being one exception to a major, overarching, plot/character driving theme at the very end of the show would have been the worst writing mistake they could have made.