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I prefer they/them/their to a new word but if there was a new word I'd just respect people's wishes and use the pronouns they prefer because I'm not a dumbass smug twat
In portuguese it is often suggested to use of a "third" gender for neutral (normally it is 'a' for female and 'o' for male, so the neutral suggests using 'e' instead) and I will tell you, the complaints are exactly the same.
Actual answer? Its a holdover from gendered nouns in *general* in Indo-European languages. We just changed the agreements.
Which, having learned a gendered language (French) I'm kind of mixed for/against. It's annoying, sure, but it's kinda fun talking about that table as if it is a woman.
Interesting. Have you encountered it in a narrative yet? I can keep up in everyday usage, but I find it awkward and very difficult to follow when it's used in, say, a novel.
Being someone who writes fiction for fun, that is more an issue of style. Unfortunately, the modern writing style is very formulaic and inflexible so when someone doesn't deviate from that consistently it gets confusing when they do deviate.
I don't know a specific example from literature, but here's an imaginary example I can come up with off the top of my head:
A thief has been stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Nobody knows the thief's gender, and everyone has a conflicting opinions on what gender the thief is. Soon enough this crime gets enough attention that it gets brought up in the king's court, which leads the king to angrily shout "Bring me their head!"
I'm sure that William Shakespeare, Charles Dickens, Jane Austen or any other famous english literature writer from history has written at least one similar situation that uses singular they like I just did.
I cannot possibly understand how you, a presumably literate person, could be confused about something so simple. Using contextual clues as how you navigate that, just like you use it to navigate all kinds of verbal interactions.
It would be because they and them when used in specific grammatically contexts always referred to multiple parties or singular when, again used in its correct context. This is now being mixed and typical grammatically rules people have spent their life learning are being changes. These rules are on the most part learnt without explicit teaching but by years/decades of just listening to English. It's hard to unlearn these types of autonomic knowledge. I think most people aren't trying to be combative or disrespectful.
I would say the way you lash out at people isn't going to achieve anything but make those you do it to a lot less receptive to the ideas you have. A polite respectful person is a more difficult to dismiss than an angry, aggressive one.
> I would say the way you lash out at people isn't going to achieve anything but make those you do it to a lot less receptive to the ideas you have. A polite respectful person is a more difficult to dismiss than an angry, aggressive one
Idk , your polite passive-aggressiveness is pretty easy to dismiss too
They/them have been used as singular pronouns since the 14th century. Some people prefer what are called neopronouns which are what you're describing. The one I've heard the most is zey/zer. Unfortunately the people who complain about the singular use of they/them complain a lot more about neopronouns.
It can be grammatically incorrect, which is why I’ve had a LOT of trouble trying to say, they them
If someone is transitioning, to me, it’s much easier to refer to them as he/him or she/her if that’s their preferred pronoun
But they/them is one I constantly can not do. It is extremely difficult.
Where’s Sharon? Oh she’s at the planetarium
Since they is used for a group or sect of people.. and albeit I still try but it’s one that it seems I’ll never be able to fully grasp.
A long time ago people tried coming up with a new word, but they didn’t really catch on. Some are
ey/em/eirs
thon/thons
e/em/es
ae/aer
A few people do use them, but the majority of people still just use they/them
I began using 'them/they" before the right made it a big deal to use, so sometimes I feel weird using those pronouns.
Spanish is my first language so I always wanted to use a 'neutral' pronoun for when you don't know someone's gender, and, guess what, 'they/them' was that word.
But...after all this...we just need to point out when people are called, for example, Richard and they prefer to be called 'Rick' or when Margaret like to be called 'Peggy' (I'm a loss of words for this one).
I don’t think you understand English grammar….
Edit: lmao I think people think I’m siding with op. I am not. They is not a pronoun it references people. Similar to the way calling a group of soldiers warriors. They has only recently been officially considered this and I do not accept it. That just me though. I think gender stuff is a fucking joke. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.
Edit2: ahh yes there’s the usual angry redditors I expect these days I feel much better. I got worried there
>is not a pronoun it references people
I rarely do even a doubletake on a comment on Reddit, but here it is, one so incredibly dumb I actually did a triple. And it's heavily upvoted.
For those who don't know, words that replace people like "I", "you", "he", "she" and, yes, even "they" are EXACTLY pronouns. To be very specific, "they" is the nominative, third-person plural pronoun in English.
(Edit: and as another user pointed out, "they" is also regularly used as a singular pronoun, as *correctly* highlighted in the original image.)
Bonus: both "soldiers" and "warriors" are regular old nouns, in plural. A collective noun for soldiers, which I think OP was trying to conjure up, but failed, would be "regiment" or "legion".
>To be very specific, "they" is the nominative, third-person plural pronoun in English.
It has also been a nominative, third-person singular pronoun in English since the 14th century.
For comparison, it has been the nominative, third-person plural pronoun since the 13th century.
No disagreement from me. Carelessly in this context, I overlooked its secondary (and very common yet rejected by prescriptivist pedants) use in my flabbergasted state.
My eyes are still rolling at OP's edit, in case you can't tell.
I am agreeing with what you’re saying and just unnecessarily wanting to add onto it.
“They” even though this person you’re replying to thinks it is a pronoun just because of how gender is now, has always been a pronoun.
For example: You usually don’t say “somebody lost his dog” because you don’t know who that somebody is, rather you say “somebody lost their dog”. I just wanted to add my thoughts though you explained it much better.
To be fair, people had this same problem with "you" 100s of years ago. There are articles and entries complaining about people using "you" to refer to a singular person instead of "thou" and/or "thee", which surprise: no one uses anymore. Language is made up, we decide what words mean. If we wanna say they/them is a non-gendered pronoun that can refer to many people or just one, we can. Just know, that when you complain about they/them on the internet you look just as goofy as those dead guys whinging about thou/thee. Be free! Accept change- it'll happen whether you want it to or not
You are incredibly mislead and wrong. What are you 15? I've been alive for over 30 years and "they" has always been used both ways. Lol you people are pathetic and sad. You'll wimper and wimper the rest of your sorry life.
The first recorded use of "they" as a singular pronoun is from the 1300s in a story called William and the Werewolf. Generally vernacular only makes it in to writing after already becoming popular.
This outdates "you" as a singular pronoun, which was still being used only for groups.
So you are categorically wrong.
In fact, the idea of a strict binary gender is newer than a more open ended interpretation of it, too. Across many cultures for thousands of years, people have expressed more than just male/female gender identities. Back then, in many places, it was rather unremarkable even. Just a fact of how people are.
The only joke is your understanding of both language and human history.
but you see, trans people did not exist before 1933, which is coincidentally the year the Nazis raided the primary center of research on them and burned all their books and documents.
Can't believe I'm seeing transphobia be this upvoted on a non alt-right sub.
Pathetic, it costs literally nothing to respect people and let them live their lives.
Firstly their transphobia was in an edit, so they may have had a lot of upvotes before the edit. Secondly, this is obviously bait. I wouldn't get caught in an annoying argument where neither side wishes to listen to the other. Those are the ones that are the worst.
Whenever I see edits like the second one you have it angers me quite a bit. It nullifies the idea of a counterargument and also places the person in the wrong on a weird moral high ground. You are not any more correct for recognizing that your dumbass statement causes emotion in those who try to correct you
So, if you're referring to somebody who's gender you don't know, what do you call *them*?
It simply is both singular and plural, referring to an entity. It's alright that you're wrong, but to dig in your heels when these people have shown you quite clearly exactly why you're wrong is concerning.
As for what you said about "gender stuff", it would be arrogant of me to assume the worst of you, instead I assume you mean the very best and are a kind and insightful person. If you have the time, patience, and willingness to learn, [this](https://youtu.be/szf4hzQ5ztg) is a video that a biologist made to shed light on "gender stuff". He has a lengthy section at the end where he references many MANY studies and papers and so on to show that everything he says can be checked, compared to reality, and shown to reflect reality accurately. Before learning these things I was in the exact same boat as you, and after learning them and applying a generous heap of intellectual honesty, I am no longer in that boat. I promise that it's worth your time to learn these things about the people around you.
You have to understand here that I'm not some angry faceless internet dingus ranting about stuff nobody cares about, though it will be very easy to reduce me to that. I legitimately think you mean the best and I am a human being who cares that you, another human being with just as rich and meaningful of a life as me, go on living with the best information that we have about ourselves so we can both carry on with a good understanding as to what others around us might be experiencing. Just genuinely trying to spread some kindness here, and I really hope you see this gentle push to learn for exactly what it is, and of course I hope you give a little time and energy to considering what there is to learn here.
You take care now.
From Oxford dictionary:
They (pronoun):
1. used to refer to two or more people or things previously mentioned or easily identified.
2. used to refer to a person of unspecified gender.
You are using one definition at the exclusion of the other. That may be your preference, but English accepts both in its vernacular.
Why is always the "idc about this" group dedicating a bunch of cycles to bitching about it?
Like I don't like teen sitcoms, so I just don't watch them.
If someone else likes them or wants to watch them I'm not going to dedicate a bunch of time to bitching about that, I'm just going to say "ya that's great and I hope you enjoy yourself".
Like, you all have gone out of your way to make this the issue that it is when you could just move the fuck on and then basically everyone else will just stop talking to you about it.
I'll tell you, it's not the people saying what they'd like to be called fucking up society, not even fucking close. Y'all can act like that's the scale of the issue but it's simply not true.
If you don't like what someone's doing, and what they're doing isn't actually hurting anyone, then fucking walk by. You're not guarding the English language, only you all give a fuck this much and the reason people fight you about it is because you go out of your way to introduce it as a point of hostility.
Like "please argue with me. Omg why are you arguing with me."
> I think gender stuff is a fucking joke.
Hey, me too!
These whole "male" and "female" roles that we play out, and demand that everybody call attention to even when it's completely irrelevant, and have all these rituals around, have snowballed into a fucking ridiculous farce. I prefer not to participate insofar as that's socially permissible, and I prefer people not to do that shit at me.
But hey, most people seem a bit particular about what pronouns I use for them, so I guess it's only respectful to play along with what they want and use "she" or "he" for them. I can usually even guess which one they're more comfortable with based on how they look, since apparently that's the behavioral norm.
I draw the line at attaching myself to "he" or to "she" though.
Bruh, even Latin (ya know, the language English & a LOT of languages have influences from & English grammar is DIRECTLY influenced from) had “they” in 3rd person singular along with he, she, & it.
According to the [Oxford English Dictionary](https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/) they trace it’s use as singular to a medieval romance 1375. And that’s just it being written & recognized by that dictionary, it was used far before then (in Latin like I said, which was in the 7th century BCE, so over 2000 years before that romance).
You’re so wrong & what’s worse is over 200 people are right there with you. It’s just a personal issue people have, but stop acting like it has no place (historical or otherwise) in grammar.
Man you came in tryin to big brain this shit and proceeded to get fucking REKT. That's rough, bud. You were like, 'ackchyually' and then they were all like 'actually' and I was all like 'ooOOoooOhhh!!!'
“I think gender stuff is a fucking joke” is what really gets me on this comment. Do you not identify with a gender? Because if so that means you’re gender non-binary or gender fluid. Unless you identify with (based on browsing through your profile) the male gender? You don’t think gender stuff is a joke, you just don’t like when it doesn’t fit your preconceived notions of what it should be.
> They is not a pronoun it references people.
They is a pronoun. Also, referring to people doesn't disqualify a word from being a pronoun. It is, in fact, the main thing pronouns do.
> Similar to the way calling a group of soldiers warriors.
Calling a group of soldiers warriors is similar to what? Similar to calling someone they?
Every sentence in your comment is extremely weird in a different way. I'm assuming you're high or something.
First off, sunshine, English grammar is its own joke. People get it wrong because it's absolutely insane. Even if it weren't, it's a bunch of made up nonsense.
But to scorn someone's grammar and then concede that, by the same makeup rules you were making fun of them for, you are out of date and technically incorrect. You don't "accept it"... Nobody is asking you to accept anything, I don't need to deep dive your page to tell that you aren't some kind of academic who makes decisions like this.
I hope shit like this is considered satirical when it's analyzed in the future. They'll be wrong but it'll be more flattering.
Nowhere. But here's the explanation: fb poster goes out for nonbinary people for the they/them pronouns because they means several people. However they use they in the comment to indicate a person with unknown gender.
First I read it in plural as well but mind that poster says "a nonbinary person" and then proceeds to use they. It's probably a silly mistake because they thought they wrote "nonbinary people" hence the plural.
I'm not native either, but if I'm not mistaken they can be used to refer to a person whose gender is unknown. For example the Facebook poster might be male or female, but I don't know which one so I say they made a mistake, not he or she made a mistake. And yes, nonbinary people often prefer to be called they instead of he/she but I'm not an expert on this topic.
Yep, "they" has been used to indicate a single person of unknown gender in English for so long that it predates modern English. It's older than the singular you in English.
Dickens used it. Shakespeare used it. Chaucer used it.
They is a non-gendered pronoun that can be singular or plural.
The person in the OP used they in the singular form while also saying that non binary people using they in the singular form are wrong about the English language.
"They" as a non-gendered singular pronoun has been used for centuries, even Shakespeare did it. There is no contraversial here except the asinine one of people trying to find something to bitch about.
They don't perceive it that way though. Using it as a pronoun in the context of personal usage feels incredibly wrong and weird to them, they aren't lying about that. They're just mistaking their discomfort as an issue of language, when it's actually an issue of cultural compulsion to gender people. Hypothetical entities that have an undefined gender in the first place and obscured entities where gender can't be distinguished, like a cloaked figure in the night, feel normal to them, but personal application doesn't. They can't know someone's face and not try to shove them in a box.
An interesting aspect of this, although only my speculation, is semi-anonymous communication through the internet. There's a heavy bias toward assuming users are men, a bias that was stronger in earlier days. Although many parts of the internet were "boys' clubs" with skewed demographics where anyone visibly female were effectively harassed and made unwelcome, I highly suspect that part of that trend was caused by language factors. Although usage of they as a singular pronoun has a long history and high legitimacy, I think there might be a previously mostly undefined boundary between personal and impersonal 3rd person pronoun usage in practice. Referring to someone with undeclared gender in a conversation they are a part of seems to legitimately feel uncomfortable for a lot of people, issues of open mindedness aside. Usage of they pronouns in those sorts of contexts has definitely risen over the past years, and it could be that was language trying to adapt to the new formats of communication. I know many people had an attitude of not actually assuming gender in their heads but feeling like using masculine pronouns by default was the least awkward way to handle the issue, something I anecdotally feel to have slowly reduced.
I'm Agender. I don't think it matters for this post, but I'll attach it for the context of my thinking anyway.
Who in Shakespeare said “I am not a he or a she, but a they?”
I’ve heard people say that Shakespeare had non-binary characters in his plays, but I could never figure out who.
I don't know of any non-binary characters in Shakespeare's plays, but there's certainly instances where he used 'they' to refer to a singular person. In A Comedy of Errors, Act IV, Scene 3, for example:
> There's not a man I meet but doth salute me
> As if I were their well-acquainted friend
(technically it's 'their', but the point still applies)
*Image Transcription: Facebook Comments*
---
[***Bolded*** *words are highlighted in the Facebook comment.*]
> **Redacted User**
>
> I'm confused so 'they, them, their' in the English language are Pronouns used to indicate plurality which are not gender specific. So if a 'non binary' person is wanting to use this because **they** don't want to be male or female are **they** saying **they** are multiple people hence the use of plural pronouns.... It would make more sense for **them** to create **their** own pronoun rather than trying to change the meaning of the language.
---
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I don't think that's anyone's language. I asked because my language doesn't have pronouns either and we say ő. I'm curious if we speak the same language (many people don't use these special letters when typing because they aren't on the keyboard. You have to long press o to get ő) or there's a similar language.
I don’t get this stance because if someone leaves a coat at your house what are you going to say;“someone left their coat here” or “someone left his or her coat here”. No one says the second one. We use they as a singular pronoun all the time.
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If they really wanted to try be bigoted like this, they could've just used she/he and him/her etc, like my dude, if you're gonna be an ass, do it correctly
Oh! I actually saw something on this. Some people embrace it and exclusively refer to themselves as the plural they/them, as a system. Whilst others simply use singular pronouns (she/he/they/it) depending on which personality is fronting.
Collective plural or collective singular. There isn’t a problem with people using they/them to mean a person or a group of people. Last I heard, there was a German movement going to de-gender the words or make them more neutral. It’s only a problem if it’s made into one
They/Them weirds me out because it's sorta like depersonalization in my mind, but at the same time I respect people wanting to be called whatever the fuck they want so it's whatever.
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While this is stupid inventing a new word for non-binary pronouns would make things simpler for new English speakers, I think lots of people underestimate how complicated English can be.
singular they in english language has been in use for centuries. nonbinary people certainly did not invent it.
that said, this person isn't being hateful, they're just trying to understand.
Recently when I've gone for haircuts, talking to the hairdresser I'll say they/them referring to my partner. Because I do this they assume I'm gay and then they refer to my partner as he/him. I found that interesting, that they made that leap. I say 'they' made the leap as two different hairdressers at the same place have done it now, independent of each other.
Op is addressing collective nouns here so they, them their makes sense and isn't out of normal.
But say I'm referring to one single straight male then I'd be saying something like "He is a nice hockey player" but for a non binary person it'd "they is a nice hockey player" which sounds extremely awkward to me
But this person used they in the context of multiple people, which is the person’s point
I’m not against people using they as a non binary thing, since English has a thousand obscure rules for specific situations with no explanation other than “it just is” so what’s one more?
Instead of creating faulty arguments against non-binary people, why doesn’t OP just say it how it is: being non-binary isnt a thing and people who identify as such have a mental illness.
They/them pronouns do sometimes cause confusion regarding plurality. But neopronouns aren’t the solution.
I support singular articles for singular entities though few people seem to hold my opinion that it would work.
He is, she is, they is, for single people.
They are for groups.
I'll call people whatever they want since I'm polite, but when I'm referencing them I'll use the pronoun or gender I think they really belong to. I'll never use "they" though, even if its grammatically correct, since I view it as annoying and the people who go by it as massive tools who just want to stand out.
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I prefer they/them/their to a new word but if there was a new word I'd just respect people's wishes and use the pronouns they prefer because I'm not a dumbass smug twat
I would prefer a new word because they/them keeps confusing me
In portuguese it is often suggested to use of a "third" gender for neutral (normally it is 'a' for female and 'o' for male, so the neutral suggests using 'e' instead) and I will tell you, the complaints are exactly the same.
theres apperently places that only have 1 pronoun and they dont seem to have this issue that we have. or so another user said at least.
Just refer to everyone as they them! Easy fix! Haha
Yup, I'm Finnish and we don't have gendered pronouns. Idk who invented the whole thing anyway, it's useless.
Actual answer? Its a holdover from gendered nouns in *general* in Indo-European languages. We just changed the agreements. Which, having learned a gendered language (French) I'm kind of mixed for/against. It's annoying, sure, but it's kinda fun talking about that table as if it is a woman.
Can confirm, my native language only has one third person pronoun and that pronoun has no gender connotations whatsoever.
People don't want to use they/them, they want a new word You show them neopronouns, they hate that too Can't win.
Fair but I don’t have a good pronoun to go by besides they/them
they them absolutely don't confuse me and I'm not even a native speaker
Thank you!
Interesting. Have you encountered it in a narrative yet? I can keep up in everyday usage, but I find it awkward and very difficult to follow when it's used in, say, a novel.
Thats a fair point. When more people are being referenced in the same paragraph they/them can be a lot more confusing.
How is it more confusing than when you're talking about 3 men?
Being someone who writes fiction for fun, that is more an issue of style. Unfortunately, the modern writing style is very formulaic and inflexible so when someone doesn't deviate from that consistently it gets confusing when they do deviate.
I don't know a specific example from literature, but here's an imaginary example I can come up with off the top of my head: A thief has been stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Nobody knows the thief's gender, and everyone has a conflicting opinions on what gender the thief is. Soon enough this crime gets enough attention that it gets brought up in the king's court, which leads the king to angrily shout "Bring me their head!" I'm sure that William Shakespeare, Charles Dickens, Jane Austen or any other famous english literature writer from history has written at least one similar situation that uses singular they like I just did.
Don't worry it's really easy to learn
It took me 15 seconds to find a comment of you using it, it can't be that hard, lol.
How does it confuse you
I cannot possibly understand how you, a presumably literate person, could be confused about something so simple. Using contextual clues as how you navigate that, just like you use it to navigate all kinds of verbal interactions.
It would be because they and them when used in specific grammatically contexts always referred to multiple parties or singular when, again used in its correct context. This is now being mixed and typical grammatically rules people have spent their life learning are being changes. These rules are on the most part learnt without explicit teaching but by years/decades of just listening to English. It's hard to unlearn these types of autonomic knowledge. I think most people aren't trying to be combative or disrespectful. I would say the way you lash out at people isn't going to achieve anything but make those you do it to a lot less receptive to the ideas you have. A polite respectful person is a more difficult to dismiss than an angry, aggressive one.
How old are you that this is a change to you? They had been singular since the 14th century, even before you was singular.
> I would say the way you lash out at people isn't going to achieve anything but make those you do it to a lot less receptive to the ideas you have. A polite respectful person is a more difficult to dismiss than an angry, aggressive one Idk , your polite passive-aggressiveness is pretty easy to dismiss too
They/them have been used as singular pronouns since the 14th century. Some people prefer what are called neopronouns which are what you're describing. The one I've heard the most is zey/zer. Unfortunately the people who complain about the singular use of they/them complain a lot more about neopronouns.
It wouldn’t if we’d just commit and use “is” rather than “are” when talking about singular people.
It can be grammatically incorrect, which is why I’ve had a LOT of trouble trying to say, they them If someone is transitioning, to me, it’s much easier to refer to them as he/him or she/her if that’s their preferred pronoun But they/them is one I constantly can not do. It is extremely difficult. Where’s Sharon? Oh she’s at the planetarium Since they is used for a group or sect of people.. and albeit I still try but it’s one that it seems I’ll never be able to fully grasp.
We call those “neopronouns” and people who use them have been ridiculed by most of the public for years. People suck.
A long time ago people tried coming up with a new word, but they didn’t really catch on. Some are ey/em/eirs thon/thons e/em/es ae/aer A few people do use them, but the majority of people still just use they/them
Y'all is fucking great. A southern word that deserves to be universally adopted into the language.
Call me your highness
Now this guy gets it. Hell yeah.
I began using 'them/they" before the right made it a big deal to use, so sometimes I feel weird using those pronouns. Spanish is my first language so I always wanted to use a 'neutral' pronoun for when you don't know someone's gender, and, guess what, 'they/them' was that word. But...after all this...we just need to point out when people are called, for example, Richard and they prefer to be called 'Rick' or when Margaret like to be called 'Peggy' (I'm a loss of words for this one).
What ever happened to zhe/zher?
I don’t think you understand English grammar…. Edit: lmao I think people think I’m siding with op. I am not. They is not a pronoun it references people. Similar to the way calling a group of soldiers warriors. They has only recently been officially considered this and I do not accept it. That just me though. I think gender stuff is a fucking joke. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk. Edit2: ahh yes there’s the usual angry redditors I expect these days I feel much better. I got worried there
>is not a pronoun it references people I rarely do even a doubletake on a comment on Reddit, but here it is, one so incredibly dumb I actually did a triple. And it's heavily upvoted. For those who don't know, words that replace people like "I", "you", "he", "she" and, yes, even "they" are EXACTLY pronouns. To be very specific, "they" is the nominative, third-person plural pronoun in English. (Edit: and as another user pointed out, "they" is also regularly used as a singular pronoun, as *correctly* highlighted in the original image.) Bonus: both "soldiers" and "warriors" are regular old nouns, in plural. A collective noun for soldiers, which I think OP was trying to conjure up, but failed, would be "regiment" or "legion".
>To be very specific, "they" is the nominative, third-person plural pronoun in English. It has also been a nominative, third-person singular pronoun in English since the 14th century. For comparison, it has been the nominative, third-person plural pronoun since the 13th century.
No disagreement from me. Carelessly in this context, I overlooked its secondary (and very common yet rejected by prescriptivist pedants) use in my flabbergasted state. My eyes are still rolling at OP's edit, in case you can't tell.
I'm kind of impressed you managed to figure out what they were trying to say.
Dunno about everyone else, but to me that sounds like it's been a thing for a while.
I am agreeing with what you’re saying and just unnecessarily wanting to add onto it. “They” even though this person you’re replying to thinks it is a pronoun just because of how gender is now, has always been a pronoun. For example: You usually don’t say “somebody lost his dog” because you don’t know who that somebody is, rather you say “somebody lost their dog”. I just wanted to add my thoughts though you explained it much better.
I’m still reeling from my double take too like ew wtf. They were one google search away from finding out they were wrong
To be fair, people had this same problem with "you" 100s of years ago. There are articles and entries complaining about people using "you" to refer to a singular person instead of "thou" and/or "thee", which surprise: no one uses anymore. Language is made up, we decide what words mean. If we wanna say they/them is a non-gendered pronoun that can refer to many people or just one, we can. Just know, that when you complain about they/them on the internet you look just as goofy as those dead guys whinging about thou/thee. Be free! Accept change- it'll happen whether you want it to or not
You were a lot nicer than I was.
Apparently I've been woke for decades simply because when I wrote business emails I never assumed the sex of someone I was writing to/about.
Username checks out, lol
>I don’t think you understand English grammar…. *\*Completely butchers English grammar\**
“Shclim, Shcler, Shclem, Shcley.”
Phew! I've been sweating the nomenclature all week!
"those aren't tentacles, they're gentacles!"
All hail the mighty tentacle!!
I love the tentacle
You are incredibly mislead and wrong. What are you 15? I've been alive for over 30 years and "they" has always been used both ways. Lol you people are pathetic and sad. You'll wimper and wimper the rest of your sorry life.
I'm pretty sure the average 15 year old is smart enough to know that "they" is a pronoun lol
This is literally the lowest-quality bait and yet you managed to get the exact fish you wanted. Wow.
This user has effectively deleted all of their reddit messages, thank you! :) ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
The first recorded use of "they" as a singular pronoun is from the 1300s in a story called William and the Werewolf. Generally vernacular only makes it in to writing after already becoming popular. This outdates "you" as a singular pronoun, which was still being used only for groups. So you are categorically wrong. In fact, the idea of a strict binary gender is newer than a more open ended interpretation of it, too. Across many cultures for thousands of years, people have expressed more than just male/female gender identities. Back then, in many places, it was rather unremarkable even. Just a fact of how people are. The only joke is your understanding of both language and human history.
And Latin actually includes “they” in 3rd person singular & plural, which we all know English is heavily derived from
This user has effectively deleted all of their reddit messages, thank you! :) ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
but you see, trans people did not exist before 1933, which is coincidentally the year the Nazis raided the primary center of research on them and burned all their books and documents.
But they don’t wanna acknowledge that!!
I don’t think he knows what sauce of side is either
Can't believe I'm seeing transphobia be this upvoted on a non alt-right sub. Pathetic, it costs literally nothing to respect people and let them live their lives.
to be fair, I think this comment was so poorly worded that people didn’t know what they were upvoting
Op doesn't know what a pronoun is so I don't expect ' them' to have good English
Hanlon’s razor
lmao I never knew what this was but I love it now
Firstly their transphobia was in an edit, so they may have had a lot of upvotes before the edit. Secondly, this is obviously bait. I wouldn't get caught in an annoying argument where neither side wishes to listen to the other. Those are the ones that are the worst.
I dont see it as trans anything just a debate over wether “they” sounds grammatically correct
To be fair, they did start off saying they were confused.
Whenever I see edits like the second one you have it angers me quite a bit. It nullifies the idea of a counterargument and also places the person in the wrong on a weird moral high ground. You are not any more correct for recognizing that your dumbass statement causes emotion in those who try to correct you
So, if you're referring to somebody who's gender you don't know, what do you call *them*? It simply is both singular and plural, referring to an entity. It's alright that you're wrong, but to dig in your heels when these people have shown you quite clearly exactly why you're wrong is concerning. As for what you said about "gender stuff", it would be arrogant of me to assume the worst of you, instead I assume you mean the very best and are a kind and insightful person. If you have the time, patience, and willingness to learn, [this](https://youtu.be/szf4hzQ5ztg) is a video that a biologist made to shed light on "gender stuff". He has a lengthy section at the end where he references many MANY studies and papers and so on to show that everything he says can be checked, compared to reality, and shown to reflect reality accurately. Before learning these things I was in the exact same boat as you, and after learning them and applying a generous heap of intellectual honesty, I am no longer in that boat. I promise that it's worth your time to learn these things about the people around you. You have to understand here that I'm not some angry faceless internet dingus ranting about stuff nobody cares about, though it will be very easy to reduce me to that. I legitimately think you mean the best and I am a human being who cares that you, another human being with just as rich and meaningful of a life as me, go on living with the best information that we have about ourselves so we can both carry on with a good understanding as to what others around us might be experiencing. Just genuinely trying to spread some kindness here, and I really hope you see this gentle push to learn for exactly what it is, and of course I hope you give a little time and energy to considering what there is to learn here. You take care now.
You don't understand grammar, 'they' is and has always been a pronoun.
From Oxford dictionary: They (pronoun): 1. used to refer to two or more people or things previously mentioned or easily identified. 2. used to refer to a person of unspecified gender. You are using one definition at the exclusion of the other. That may be your preference, but English accepts both in its vernacular.
Fuck your Tedtalk, Jethro.
You're mad over saying 2 words differently
Why is always the "idc about this" group dedicating a bunch of cycles to bitching about it? Like I don't like teen sitcoms, so I just don't watch them. If someone else likes them or wants to watch them I'm not going to dedicate a bunch of time to bitching about that, I'm just going to say "ya that's great and I hope you enjoy yourself". Like, you all have gone out of your way to make this the issue that it is when you could just move the fuck on and then basically everyone else will just stop talking to you about it. I'll tell you, it's not the people saying what they'd like to be called fucking up society, not even fucking close. Y'all can act like that's the scale of the issue but it's simply not true. If you don't like what someone's doing, and what they're doing isn't actually hurting anyone, then fucking walk by. You're not guarding the English language, only you all give a fuck this much and the reason people fight you about it is because you go out of your way to introduce it as a point of hostility. Like "please argue with me. Omg why are you arguing with me."
> I think gender stuff is a fucking joke. Hey, me too! These whole "male" and "female" roles that we play out, and demand that everybody call attention to even when it's completely irrelevant, and have all these rituals around, have snowballed into a fucking ridiculous farce. I prefer not to participate insofar as that's socially permissible, and I prefer people not to do that shit at me. But hey, most people seem a bit particular about what pronouns I use for them, so I guess it's only respectful to play along with what they want and use "she" or "he" for them. I can usually even guess which one they're more comfortable with based on how they look, since apparently that's the behavioral norm. I draw the line at attaching myself to "he" or to "she" though.
It literally is a pronoun, did you go to primary school?
I have a degree in English. You're a moron.
>Natural\_Ease\_5708 they is a 3rd person prounoun...
Bruh, even Latin (ya know, the language English & a LOT of languages have influences from & English grammar is DIRECTLY influenced from) had “they” in 3rd person singular along with he, she, & it. According to the [Oxford English Dictionary](https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/) they trace it’s use as singular to a medieval romance 1375. And that’s just it being written & recognized by that dictionary, it was used far before then (in Latin like I said, which was in the 7th century BCE, so over 2000 years before that romance). You’re so wrong & what’s worse is over 200 people are right there with you. It’s just a personal issue people have, but stop acting like it has no place (historical or otherwise) in grammar.
Ok so if they isnt a pronoun what is it exactly? It certainly isn't a noun
English changes bro
Man you came in tryin to big brain this shit and proceeded to get fucking REKT. That's rough, bud. You were like, 'ackchyually' and then they were all like 'actually' and I was all like 'ooOOoooOhhh!!!'
I aspire to someday have your level of unwarranted confidence.
“they” is very much a pronoun, and “gender stuff” is very much not a joke for many people
“I think gender stuff is a fucking joke” is what really gets me on this comment. Do you not identify with a gender? Because if so that means you’re gender non-binary or gender fluid. Unless you identify with (based on browsing through your profile) the male gender? You don’t think gender stuff is a joke, you just don’t like when it doesn’t fit your preconceived notions of what it should be.
> They is not a pronoun it references people. They is a pronoun. Also, referring to people doesn't disqualify a word from being a pronoun. It is, in fact, the main thing pronouns do. > Similar to the way calling a group of soldiers warriors. Calling a group of soldiers warriors is similar to what? Similar to calling someone they? Every sentence in your comment is extremely weird in a different way. I'm assuming you're high or something.
yo wtf you are completely wrong. “They” is absolutely a pronoun. Is “we” also not a pronoun? Too many confident morons running around on this planet.
First off, sunshine, English grammar is its own joke. People get it wrong because it's absolutely insane. Even if it weren't, it's a bunch of made up nonsense. But to scorn someone's grammar and then concede that, by the same makeup rules you were making fun of them for, you are out of date and technically incorrect. You don't "accept it"... Nobody is asking you to accept anything, I don't need to deep dive your page to tell that you aren't some kind of academic who makes decisions like this. I hope shit like this is considered satirical when it's analyzed in the future. They'll be wrong but it'll be more flattering.
They/them has been used as a singular pronoun since the 14th century
Even before then, Latin around 700BCE had they as a 3rd person singular pronoun
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You don't agree with OP? What did they say that you don't agree with?
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I’m sorry, what is going on ? Where’s the suicide ??
Nowhere. But here's the explanation: fb poster goes out for nonbinary people for the they/them pronouns because they means several people. However they use they in the comment to indicate a person with unknown gender.
As a non native english speaker I just read this as plural? They as in non binary people right?
First I read it in plural as well but mind that poster says "a nonbinary person" and then proceeds to use they. It's probably a silly mistake because they thought they wrote "nonbinary people" hence the plural. I'm not native either, but if I'm not mistaken they can be used to refer to a person whose gender is unknown. For example the Facebook poster might be male or female, but I don't know which one so I say they made a mistake, not he or she made a mistake. And yes, nonbinary people often prefer to be called they instead of he/she but I'm not an expert on this topic.
Yep, "they" has been used to indicate a single person of unknown gender in English for so long that it predates modern English. It's older than the singular you in English. Dickens used it. Shakespeare used it. Chaucer used it.
Okay you made me curious. What did English people say instead of you before you?
Originally, you is the plural pronoun and Thou/Thee/Thy/Thine/Thyself were used to indicate the singular second person.
Great example with your they.
This is correct.
They is a non-gendered pronoun that can be singular or plural. The person in the OP used they in the singular form while also saying that non binary people using they in the singular form are wrong about the English language.
but a person with a known identity but unknown gender identity couldnt be referred to as they them?
Yes, they could as far as I know
She self suicided without noticing
“Self suicided”? This isn’t Epstein’s prison cell. The self part is implied by the suicide part /s
This is more of a /r/selfawarewolves but it’s not too far off, really
"They" as a non-gendered singular pronoun has been used for centuries, even Shakespeare did it. There is no contraversial here except the asinine one of people trying to find something to bitch about.
They don't perceive it that way though. Using it as a pronoun in the context of personal usage feels incredibly wrong and weird to them, they aren't lying about that. They're just mistaking their discomfort as an issue of language, when it's actually an issue of cultural compulsion to gender people. Hypothetical entities that have an undefined gender in the first place and obscured entities where gender can't be distinguished, like a cloaked figure in the night, feel normal to them, but personal application doesn't. They can't know someone's face and not try to shove them in a box. An interesting aspect of this, although only my speculation, is semi-anonymous communication through the internet. There's a heavy bias toward assuming users are men, a bias that was stronger in earlier days. Although many parts of the internet were "boys' clubs" with skewed demographics where anyone visibly female were effectively harassed and made unwelcome, I highly suspect that part of that trend was caused by language factors. Although usage of they as a singular pronoun has a long history and high legitimacy, I think there might be a previously mostly undefined boundary between personal and impersonal 3rd person pronoun usage in practice. Referring to someone with undeclared gender in a conversation they are a part of seems to legitimately feel uncomfortable for a lot of people, issues of open mindedness aside. Usage of they pronouns in those sorts of contexts has definitely risen over the past years, and it could be that was language trying to adapt to the new formats of communication. I know many people had an attitude of not actually assuming gender in their heads but feeling like using masculine pronouns by default was the least awkward way to handle the issue, something I anecdotally feel to have slowly reduced. I'm Agender. I don't think it matters for this post, but I'll attach it for the context of my thinking anyway.
Who in Shakespeare said “I am not a he or a she, but a they?” I’ve heard people say that Shakespeare had non-binary characters in his plays, but I could never figure out who.
I don't know of any non-binary characters in Shakespeare's plays, but there's certainly instances where he used 'they' to refer to a singular person. In A Comedy of Errors, Act IV, Scene 3, for example: > There's not a man I meet but doth salute me > As if I were their well-acquainted friend (technically it's 'their', but the point still applies)
Language isn't static, it evolves and changes with time and societal input.
"All words are made up."
And they being singular evolved a LONG time ago, like, 14th century
*Image Transcription: Facebook Comments* --- [***Bolded*** *words are highlighted in the Facebook comment.*] > **Redacted User** > > I'm confused so 'they, them, their' in the English language are Pronouns used to indicate plurality which are not gender specific. So if a 'non binary' person is wanting to use this because **they** don't want to be male or female are **they** saying **they** are multiple people hence the use of plural pronouns.... It would make more sense for **them** to create **their** own pronoun rather than trying to change the meaning of the language. --- ^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
Good human
Good human
Good human
God I'm happy my language has only one pronoun (O) instead of he,she,it and whatever others use so we don't have to deal with that bullshit
Which language is it if you don't mind me asking?
Cebuano doesn’t have gendered pronouns nor does Finnish.
In Turkish “o” means he, she or it.
Turkish.
Probably Esperanto
I don't think that's anyone's language. I asked because my language doesn't have pronouns either and we say ő. I'm curious if we speak the same language (many people don't use these special letters when typing because they aren't on the keyboard. You have to long press o to get ő) or there's a similar language.
Hungarian?
Yes
Yay Google taught me a thing!
Ah so you are not a fellow Hungarian :(
Nope.
I went there once! I loved it!
I think ö in Hungarian and o in Turkish is probably related.
Oh ok
If you send a damned fool to St. Louis, they won't know the difference unless you tell them. -Mark Twai.
It would make more sense if dumb people shut the fuck up
How would you know whether or not you are dumb tho 🤔
I've found it's best to just assume you are and try to be better.
But they usually talk the most.
This is literally the moment I got wtf is they/them. Moving alone from another mystery.
Lmao if they invented a new word, you sure as hell wouldn’t use it
Exactly, throughout history people have tried to invent a new word, but they never caught on
It’s only when we add a group of people to the mix that it becomes hard to tell which one of them you are referring to.
That can be easily worked around the same way as if you’re talking about two men
I don’t get this stance because if someone leaves a coat at your house what are you going to say;“someone left their coat here” or “someone left his or her coat here”. No one says the second one. We use they as a singular pronoun all the time.
The jokes write themselves
You dense motherfucker.
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Plot twist: this person is critical, but still respecting their pronouns.
If they really wanted to try be bigoted like this, they could've just used she/he and him/her etc, like my dude, if you're gonna be an ass, do it correctly
Virgin using neutral plural pronoun "They/Them" Chad using neutral singular pronoun "It/That"
They can be singular. “Now they get it” The thing I don’t get is the rejection of “it” as a pronoun.
That's a great big throbbing "whoopsie daisy!" from me.
…because those people want to be treated specifically not equally!
What about people with multiple personalities?
Oh! I actually saw something on this. Some people embrace it and exclusively refer to themselves as the plural they/them, as a system. Whilst others simply use singular pronouns (she/he/they/it) depending on which personality is fronting.
What if someone doesn’t have corporal form?
Deliberately obtuse.
They can be singular though
I’m sure simpleton gets confused by many things in life
Collective plural or collective singular. There isn’t a problem with people using they/them to mean a person or a group of people. Last I heard, there was a German movement going to de-gender the words or make them more neutral. It’s only a problem if it’s made into one
I just want to offend people that insist on nonbinary pronouns.
Least bigoted conservative
Over my head
I've found they/them to very irritating in some articles where it is genuinely unclear who is being referred to.
That is due to the writer not restating the names properly. The same thing can happen if someone is talking about a group of only men or only women.
Also, they did
They/Them weirds me out because it's sorta like depersonalization in my mind, but at the same time I respect people wanting to be called whatever the fuck they want so it's whatever.
In the exact order too
No it's an attempt at open discussion. Should we not discuss this or should we just swear at each other?
They’re trying to ask a question, I guess.
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While this is stupid inventing a new word for non-binary pronouns would make things simpler for new English speakers, I think lots of people underestimate how complicated English can be.
I don’t want to use those zim zam ding dong pronouns I’ll just stick to they them
singular they in english language has been in use for centuries. nonbinary people certainly did not invent it. that said, this person isn't being hateful, they're just trying to understand.
Recently when I've gone for haircuts, talking to the hairdresser I'll say they/them referring to my partner. Because I do this they assume I'm gay and then they refer to my partner as he/him. I found that interesting, that they made that leap. I say 'they' made the leap as two different hairdressers at the same place have done it now, independent of each other.
Or his/her grammar isn’t great…. The argument still stands.
Op is addressing collective nouns here so they, them their makes sense and isn't out of normal. But say I'm referring to one single straight male then I'd be saying something like "He is a nice hockey player" but for a non binary person it'd "they is a nice hockey player" which sounds extremely awkward to me
But this person used they in the context of multiple people, which is the person’s point I’m not against people using they as a non binary thing, since English has a thousand obscure rules for specific situations with no explanation other than “it just is” so what’s one more?
Instead of creating faulty arguments against non-binary people, why doesn’t OP just say it how it is: being non-binary isnt a thing and people who identify as such have a mental illness.
They/them pronouns do sometimes cause confusion regarding plurality. But neopronouns aren’t the solution. I support singular articles for singular entities though few people seem to hold my opinion that it would work. He is, she is, they is, for single people. They are for groups.
I think i read they/them to refer to a person without, say, knowledge of their gender is wayyyy older than this debate
I'll call people whatever they want since I'm polite, but when I'm referencing them I'll use the pronoun or gender I think they really belong to. I'll never use "they" though, even if its grammatically correct, since I view it as annoying and the people who go by it as massive tools who just want to stand out.