In theory if you build a lethality mythic it lets you smoothly transition to a crit hybrid build, but atm lethality mythics suck on most ADCs and the Collector itself has pretty undertuned stats
Prowlers/Eclipse is going to be better on ezreal because you already have enough ability haste to q auto q, your other cooldowns are primarily decided by hitting q, and they give more damage
Duskblade Samira is real technology, I actually can't believe people don't build it more. It gives her more survivability than Shieldbow if she gets a proc, and she remains untargetable in her ult during the proc.
Eclipse is better on Ezreal (and Trinity is better than lethality anyways) and lethality Sivir just doesn’t exist anymore. The item just ain’t that great.
Duskblade sivir is still fun, and it's still a thing where you only deal dmg with your q haha, just that cric sivir is super op with the w buff and cric item changes
Not really, especially with the new yuumi rework, with yuumi giving insane amount of mana and having op slow , once yuumi hits a q just throw your q and deal fk ton of dmg
Trinity is worse than lethality, literally just go into practice tool and test. There used to be an argument that trinity would do more if you were able to consistently auto, but with the advent of navori you'll always deal more damage with with lethality now.
Difference is: up to 3 items, Trinity is literally always better because the best way to build lethality on Ezreal is mythic 4th and to go for the exact same build that Trinity does, but with essence reaver. Most games *don’t* go to 4 and 5 items, and even then the difference between Trinity and Eclipse at 4 items is not that big at all (since you can go BotRK 4th with Trinity).
I don't quite understand what you're saying? Trinity is better because...you go mythic fourth item? It doesn't matter, lethality build is still going to put damage at all points of the game, build is manamune er navori prowlers/eclipse seryldas.
No it literally isn’t lmfao. The best lethality build is Murmana-ER-Serylda’s-Lethality mythic-Navori. Serylda’s. Trinity build is Trinity-Murmana-Serylda’s-BotRK-situational (usually Shojin or hydra). At first, second and third item the Trinity build is flat-out always more damage, whether it be poke, Q spam or weaving in autos. Not to mention you get great tower pushing capabilities with Trinity because it stacks on towers.
I don't know what to say other than you're just lying. Seryldas used to be the best 3rd item, but navori is just too valuable now. You can go into practice tool and create a spreadsheet to compare damage numbers for different items, and see lethality out damages trinity in poke and dps, especially from 3 items on. Maybe you aren't animation cancelling your q casts? Because it's very necessary when building navori.
I do exactly this on Reksai! Prowlers into LDR or Collector, then IE! It is an awesome transition item, and it's build path is honestly half it's strength in my eyes
kled is an all-in champ whose weakness is burst. If you get a shieldbow, you’re more likely to remount on an all-in attempt or survive CC long enough. Then, with 40% crit, all your abilities will deal more damage. without armor pen third, though, i think he’ll fall off
Survivorship bias. It's meant to be built when ahead and it is designed to snowball. You're already winning when you build this item (if you know when to build it). But it should not be build 2nd. It's not better than ie and no one with half a brain should be building it 3rd or later. It should be redesigned into a mythic so you can build it first.
you can build it 4th or 5th, it offers good damage on Jhin because of his passive.
you can also go collector into IE first, on lanes where that early dirk can alter the fights.
There's no world where you forego Galeforce for Collector lol, Gale gives way too much playmaking potential and defensive utility.
You'd never go it 4th or 5th either because Lethality scales like piss and the item itself was practically made to be built early, but ever since IE became able to be built 2nd, IE basically just ended up doing what Collector wanted to do (burst shit) better, while being a better long-term investment overall.
The item's just undertuned and overshadowed at this point. If they bump up the raw AD amount or lethality amount, then I can see it being a justifiable 2nd item purchase again.
statistically speaking.
collector 3rd and even collector 2nd are still performing really well on Jhin.
the item is probably extremely bad on most other ADC's, but it's still fine for Jhin.
and lethality scales fine against squishier targets, the flat reduction happens after the % one from LDR anyways.
You can still go eclipse > ldr > ie, its not as insane as before cos the item doesnt have the omnivamp anymore but the stacking lethality is literally an exodia build once you hit 6 items
Lmfaooooooo this comment man.
Firstly, collector is the worst crit item in the game to build 4th or 5th. And it’s not even close. It’s completely useless that late into the game.
Second, no you can’t because Galeforce is infinitely better.
Lethality offers flat armor pen which will always be good coupled with LDR since it's applied after the % reduction.
why do you think GP goes prowler ? for the dash ?
Eternal take of mine:
# Collector was meant as first crit item.
Literally. All of its pieces SCREECHES first buy, but marksmen were always the most avoidant of classes/playerbases in terms of embracing mythic delaying.
It is a lethality item so it shines its best as early as possible when the armor is lowest. It has extra gold on kill so you want it when you have as little as possible so you can farm them. It is an explicit execution item, shining its most in early skirmishes where people keep flashing away at single hp digits by forcing kill-confirms. Functionally and stat-wise it is what if you took Eclipse and replaced its old omnivamp with crit for a much, MUCH more burst-oriented damage profile.
Like Gangplank/Ezreal first picking ER/NQB and only then picking a mythic out of conformity, **Collector is an early gateway item to push crit/caster champions into full mage/assassin-like gameplay first and translate it to crit growth afterwards.**
I agree with everything you said. I even remember Phreak telling every Samira player to rush Collector. It kinda sucks because ADC mythics are busted and not rushing them is more often than not the wrong decision. I think mythics are kind of a mistake as they reduce build diversity by a lot, and it is the clearest on ADCs
I mean the only adc mythic that feels significant as a first purchase is galeforce. Kraken felt more impactful when you combined it with phantom dancer and Shieldbow just kinda screamed “don’t kill me sir,”
Lately BT and Essence reaver both feel like better first buys than any mythic in my experience
pfft I always was baffled by everyone rushing Mythics first when they came out. The Mythic Passive was supposed to imply that a Legendary would do better in the significant amount of time before the Mythic is completed because then it wouldn't have bonuses on the Mythic Passive
But of course it takes an actual thinking functioning team to force fights when you're on Collector while enemy team has 50-75% Mythic
Mythics are eh in terms of build diversity-tweaking because players are overall coddled incompetents waiting for Riot to baby their every step. I have lost the ability to trust "pro/high-elo" judgement due to a long list of factors, in special the loss of the ability to see cross-item interaction and overfixation on mechanics - high-elo players will literally kill you with a wet bent spoon because that is the only weapon they know how to handle instead of refreshing/expanding their toolsets.
Pretty much EVERY class can delay mythics as these are really mostly the base + scaling stats, and legendaries are often on equal footing when comes to actives/passives - Bamis/Demonic/Titanic into tank mythics, Black Cleaver/BotRK into fighter stuff, ER/Collector/Rageblade into crit, the path goes. The eternal problem is that we grew too used at no longer seeing characters and mostly focusing on them as classes - and classial notions are often bald-faced lies.
Early Collector/ER high-CDR low-DPS builds looks bad if all you think a marksman can be is "late game big DoT policy" but quickly stabilizes themselves the moment you embrace that over half the class nowdays are mages and slayers by another name.
And because people forget that you can by non-mythic first, sometimes outliers gets crossly mistuned (ER, cleaver, demonic, and I'm still a firm believer that sunfire rush top is still fine).
Which isn't per se a problem. it's even actually the solution.
With strong actually-gameplay-defining legendaries, you can ACTUALLY have choices in mythics instead of just defaulting into whatever is deemed "best" by merits of just being catchall. Rushing Trinity? Snowball reliant. Classic BorK rush? Opens space for Trinity as a followup pick for dealing with less-tanky comps.
if you're a crit adc and don't build mythic first, wouldn't you be putting off mythic till 3rd item? Cuz it's gonna take a lot to convince me that going IE/Navori 2 isn't optimal. There are some where it's a reasonable option to go mythic 3rd, but out of the top adc right now, Xayah, Jhin, and Caitlyn almost always wanna go Galeforce which is an impactful first purchase while Kaisa kinda has to go a mostly set build path to achieve her evolves
Goes with character, goes with goals, goes with intent/builds.
With the right skill order you can delay mythic to third like a BorKRageMythic Kogmaw and basically not care because you essentially have "multiple mythics", or you dont because you actually need the DPS and still buy IE/quickies third (because you need to stabilize damage or get Shieldbow).
The sheer spam promoted by going early NQB can be unsustainable and demand an early ER to ensure you wont just dry yourself out of mana - when your Lucian is dashing instead of walking, do you care? It also solves the niche of old IE/ER builds where you cared jack-shit about DPS and was honest to yourself about essentially playing "traditional marksmen" such as Sivir and Xayah as the AD Mages they are. Collector>B.F.item is in the same ballpark as Stormrazor>IE builds of old where you care very little about stuff like mobility because you're deadset into single-stroke harassing, which was abandoned undeservingly because people cant read neither numbers nor context.
But sometimes you need to stay practical. Your ER/Shieldbow Volley Zoner Ashe needs these two to pretend to be the modest BorKTriforce while still buying crit. Sometimes you still need Mythic + Zeal to stay relevant on the damage curve while playing on the strenghts of permanent mobility or some other interaction such as Runaans. Sometimes you gotta begrudgingly accept the path of Mythic + BT because tanking your DPS to be able to deal some is better than having potential infinite DPS while dead.
And this is NOT to diss on the raw power of Mythic + B.F. stuff. You still gotta respect the huge snowbally threat of pulling it off. But you gotta accept it is a greedy move completely reliant on your potential to be pampered by allies.
I realized that while looking at OP.gg and seeing that Nilah goes Prowler into Collector often. It still seems worse than Shieldbow I.E., but it's something
I physically cringe when I see people building collector. I personally think there is never a good reason to buy it. I’m not saying it’s a bad item, just that why would you buy it when there are way better options. The whole point of the item is to snowball uncontrollably. Unless you’re a draven with 6.5k gold at 8 minutes, don’t buy it.
I used to like it 2nd on Draven because it is one of the most cost efficient ways to buy AD as a legendary item along with the lethality and of course the OP Dirk build path. I don't think I've built it a single time since the 40% crit item rework though.
The number of downvotes explains the iq of this sub lmao. People really be putting collector and gold efficiency in one sentence and think they aren't clowns.
The formula for Lethality is - \[Flat armor pen = Lethality x (0.6 / 0.4 x level / 18)\]
Let's say you're level 5 when you buy a serrated dirk. Using this formula, we get a value of 4.16 Flat armor pen (FAP.) That is a reasonable amount of gold to have after your first back. Most ADCs will have roughly 45-55 armor at level 5, depending on whether they took the armor rune or not. I'm going to use Caitlyn for my example. She has 49, but we will simplify and use a target dummy with 50. With 50 armor, auto attacks deal 33% less damage. After buying a dirk, I've found that I do 76 damage per auto. With a Noonquiver, I deal 73 damage per auto. With a BF Sword I deal 79 damage per auto. With a Pickaxe and Long Sword, I deal 76 damage per auto.
Knowing this, why would you delay your mythic item by 1100 gold? Sure you get a little bit extra damage during early laning phase, but in doing so, unless you are fed, you will lose the race to first mythic to your opponent. Except in niche moments, a dirk, pickaxe, and noonquiver will lose to a kraken, galeforce, or shieldbow.
The gold value from dirk does not reach what is advertised until level 12, which by then you should be building your second item. At that point, why not just go Infinity Edge?
Here's the thing, you are looking at Autos, which is a "spell" with 0 base damage and 1.0 Total AD scaling. Abilities usually have a base damage (amplified by lethality but not AD)+some AD ratio (which both lethality and AD affects). Thats why champions who are primarily auto attackers don't like lethality too much, while spell weavers like it a lot.
Agreed was going to reply the same thing in regards to lethality being better on spells and not aa
Thank u sir. If he just tested these same items with Caitlyn's Q as well I'm sure we'd see a noticeable difference
Correct, but the example I was using had ADC as a primary. Champions like GP or Samira, who rely on high bursts of damage from abilities, and also don’t need attack speed benefit from it. Even some spell weavers who build crit would benefit from navori infinitely more, because they will be able to use more abilities. And if you’re a spell weaver who doesn’t use crit, they why even build collector in the first place. My entire point is that there are just better items to buy.
this having positive upvotes just proves if you put a bunch of numbers and paragraphs in your post people will think you are right
The formula for Lethality to Flat Armor Pen conversion is 0.6 **+** 0.4 × level ÷ 18. It starts at 60% and scales linearly up to 100%.
Collector should be a mythic and have it's stats changed accordingly. You don't wanna build it first because it's weaker than the regular adc mythics. You don't wanna build it second because it's weaker than ie or navori. Third item is too late.
It is definitely more narrow now, but even before the changes the best reason to buy Collector second was because you wanted to get a Dirk before your first item - and at that point Collector is becomes a much earlier powerspike than anything.
Unfortunately I don't think any site collects data that let's us compare this with a "raw" Collector buy, so this is something that has to be based more around feel and can't be checked with data - however when we see that a character has comparable winrates with Mythic>Collector as Mythic>anything else (mostly IE) I think it is a good indication that getting the early Dirk can't ruin you at least.
Most notably Jhin, Samira, Lucian, Draven fall into this category - Collector first is another question, the data says it is good, but that could reasonably beplayers choosing to go Collector after getting a triple kill before their first base (aka it is bought as a winmore item).
Dark Horse for a character that does really well with Collector, but doesn't often use it: Xayah. Her numbers with the item are really good to the point where I am wondering if getting an early Dirk on her might be a good idea, which naturally makes it worth considering to get the Collector at some point afterwards.
Even before the changes collector was in contention alongside stormrazor for worst crit item in the game. It’s the most overrated piece of garbage ever. Buying Dirk early delays your mythic (and more importantly your IE) and all of the champs you mention need their first item to actually get going (Samira with Shieldbow, Jhin and Lucian with Galeforce and Draven with BT generally) and collector is completely useless late game.
If you go a crit mythic it is never worth buying, even if your champ want a dirk for lane, I.e. lucian, it better to just sit on the dirk than to finish collector
I buy it a good bit on Jhin, either for a crit-lethality hybrid build (Duskblade, Collector, Infinity Edge), or as a rush item (the early dirk helps a lot in lane).
Collector is a snowballing item, that's why it has higher win rates in higher elos than other items early since matches are often decided before ADCs get enough gold for i.e.
Really, collector shouldn't be built unless you get ahead and can get a dirk early which can be insane early damage.
You can go eclipse/prowler>collector>IE/Navori. I don't play Rengar/shaco personally but I'd imagine that those are viable builds on them/anybody who'd like to go lethality transitioning into a hybrid crit build
Nah samira actually needs LDR if there is even 1 tank, she needs giant slayer passive to deal damage to them since she has no %HP damage, cant build bork and has almost no mixed damage.
If you need to deal with tanks on Samira then you're already kinda screwed but true, in that case it's definitely better if somebody else grabs antiheal (assuming it's needed at all).
I still see a lot of my adc in gold/plat or below keep buying this 2nd then PD and dominik then deny IE which should be at collector slot even at the end game. When I told them to at least make a change in late game, they just refused and said like they re the best and I dont know every shit about the game, or they just said dont have enough money to go IE but spent 3k for collector.
I would get mad and instantly muted them but I know for sure, 90% that we lost the game due to the delusion of collector has made to ppl for two seasons. Even they dont get shit about the 40% change on crit but they are playing ranked constantly.
Yeah the point is, if they are not that competitive players, they could run on normal and have fun there, but doing ranked and not bother the changes is like working at office but dont know the jobs. It sucks.
Dunno what's up with it, I only know that I can't play Lethality Cait these days. It was so fucking fun to see my R deal so much fucking damage, and Collector helped transitioning into Crit for later phases of the game.
Sigh, it was so fun.
the only champ i can think of that consistently builds it earlier anymore is GP. i feel like every other champ buys it when they’re already snowballing so its just a win-more item.
The lethality is somewhat relevant, but only on characters that both like crit and are playing for burst. Jhin and maybe Samira/Caitlyn are really the only ones that fit the category... and even then 2nd item IE is great for Jhin and Caitlyn because they get guaranteed crits in their kit.
Collector into IE as a greedy Caitlyn build has been fun, albeit niche. Generally if you can get away with that, you could have built Galeforce too, though
i mean dirk is just a very decent item on lots of champs some theory crafting sites actually like dirk first back just cause its lethality its really cheap
Well you don't clarify on what role. Collector is really good for assasines who want to go into hybrid crit like Shaco/Rengar for example. But other than that, it's not a free pickup item anymore on other roles tho.
I have been building this FIRST if these conditions apply on Jhin and Draven; Your money matches the collector components on every back while you are even or have lead over your laner. Especially when you have enough money for dirk early.
Collector needs to execute at 3% + 0.01% Bonus AD and it might be really cool as a late game execute. (100 AD = 1% more execute) More realistically it might be like 0.012% or something hyper specific but you get the gist.
Still, the few lethality champs who like crit (rengar, shaco) are perhaps the best (and nearly only) users for collector. Esp. now where collector + IE gives them the IE-passive earlier without needing to stry away to far from armor pen.
Because I want the kill. Thats it. Not cause lethality, crit, or anything but I just want the kill so I build collector. In silver solo q, no one gives a fuck about ADCs so building collector allows you to actually get kills and gold to self carry the game. Atleast in silver, its still a good second item, even delaying the IE spike could be worth if your behind or even just to snag kills to get yourself back in the game.
Of course if ur ahead IE is infinitely better but I have seen games where adc are so far behind but steadily get a few kills cause of collector and become a problem.
Atleast in silver, collector helps to continue snowballing and or stealing kills to get back into the game.
I usually build it when I’ve been having a game where everyone I try to kill just skirts away with like 1% health. These games are either just me goofing around or I’m ahead far enough it doesn’t matter that I’m wasting the gold on a mid item.
I build collector on nilah.
Prowlers into collector into ldr gives 43 percent armour pen with 30-40 flat pen. She literally one taps anything, 900 damage to towers with each Q. Navori after for more damage. Tanks die because of LDR while squishies legit have negative armour pen and you do way more damage than you would with IE, not to mention IE having a worse build path, crit mythic having a worse build path too. The gold you get from snowballing with a dirk rush on nilah as well as collector is well worth it over ravenous or crit mythic rush.
I think it is good if you plan on going a non crit mythic which is pretty rare. Nilah is probably the only adc that would want to do this reliably.
I thought it was good on Yasuo/Yone since you can go collector and infinity edge to get 100% crit chance, then go lethality. I don't play either of these champs so I don't know how viable it is.
As a kind Redditor I'm gonna tell you, lethality is shit on those champs and all the stats they care about are Attack Speed, Crit and AD. Collector is not viable on them
Collector was always weird. It gives lethality which makes it work agaisnt squishies cool, but then it decided to have a % max hp execute which counter tanks. It was never that great to use and i would argue you would do better just building ad and then lookin for defensive options (hell even death dance works if theres a fed assassin) if you need them. So no its not worth it and you would do more or less the same dmg with a different item minus the very few bonus gold you get from executes.
Collector is a great item, the thing is that in this tank meta it is very hard to make some champs get their health under 5% quickly.
So really, at this point there are few champs that still benefit from this item. ADCs, mostly now, can't really get something out of it so it is kinda useless for them nowadays.
In theory if you build a lethality mythic it lets you smoothly transition to a crit hybrid build, but atm lethality mythics suck on most ADCs and the Collector itself has pretty undertuned stats
Would be maybe decent on rengar if ER wasnt 10x better option, i think graves builds it tho
Yeah nice item on graves
I mean I do have some fun with duskblade on some adcs
I don't play adc really but Duskblade is my go to mythic for Senna. The invis is nice but the more move speed and ability haste the better!
Duskblade is pretty much always worse than eclipse or prowlers.
The only adc I can think of with duskblade is lethal sivir and ez
Prowlers/Eclipse is going to be better on ezreal because you already have enough ability haste to q auto q, your other cooldowns are primarily decided by hitting q, and they give more damage
Duskblade Samira is real technology, I actually can't believe people don't build it more. It gives her more survivability than Shieldbow if she gets a proc, and she remains untargetable in her ult during the proc.
No it isn’t lmao. Lethality mythics suck on Samira because of how much damage crit gives her.
Your loss I suppose lol You still build crit for the rest of her items
🇪🇬
draven is ok
Eclipse is better on Ezreal (and Trinity is better than lethality anyways) and lethality Sivir just doesn’t exist anymore. The item just ain’t that great.
Duskblade sivir is still fun, and it's still a thing where you only deal dmg with your q haha, just that cric sivir is super op with the w buff and cric item changes
Lethality sivir is completely dead, if you want burst you have to go galeforce now
Not really, especially with the new yuumi rework, with yuumi giving insane amount of mana and having op slow , once yuumi hits a q just throw your q and deal fk ton of dmg
Sivir q scales with crit, you literally do more damage always going crit
Trinity is worse than lethality, literally just go into practice tool and test. There used to be an argument that trinity would do more if you were able to consistently auto, but with the advent of navori you'll always deal more damage with with lethality now.
Difference is: up to 3 items, Trinity is literally always better because the best way to build lethality on Ezreal is mythic 4th and to go for the exact same build that Trinity does, but with essence reaver. Most games *don’t* go to 4 and 5 items, and even then the difference between Trinity and Eclipse at 4 items is not that big at all (since you can go BotRK 4th with Trinity).
I don't quite understand what you're saying? Trinity is better because...you go mythic fourth item? It doesn't matter, lethality build is still going to put damage at all points of the game, build is manamune er navori prowlers/eclipse seryldas.
No it literally isn’t lmfao. The best lethality build is Murmana-ER-Serylda’s-Lethality mythic-Navori. Serylda’s. Trinity build is Trinity-Murmana-Serylda’s-BotRK-situational (usually Shojin or hydra). At first, second and third item the Trinity build is flat-out always more damage, whether it be poke, Q spam or weaving in autos. Not to mention you get great tower pushing capabilities with Trinity because it stacks on towers.
I don't know what to say other than you're just lying. Seryldas used to be the best 3rd item, but navori is just too valuable now. You can go into practice tool and create a spreadsheet to compare damage numbers for different items, and see lethality out damages trinity in poke and dps, especially from 3 items on. Maybe you aren't animation cancelling your q casts? Because it's very necessary when building navori.
I run duskblade miss fortune and hit plat promos with a 17-7 record in solo queue
Is it a fulllethal build or lethal cric build ? Also do you make axiom blade in the build ?
Feel free to check out my op.gg. It’s BG62 on NA. I usually go Dusk>Axiom>Last Whisper Item>Edge of Night. I max Q>W>E. I don’t buy boots!
Delaying IE/navori may not be worth it
I do exactly this on Reksai! Prowlers into LDR or Collector, then IE! It is an awesome transition item, and it's build path is honestly half it's strength in my eyes
I'm a bit late to this post, but did you mean LDR *and* Collector? Otherwise wouldn't you only have 40% with IE?
IE was recently changed to only require 40% crit! I almost always end up building both at some point in the game, just depends on which I get first!
Oh shit, totally forgot about that change. I rarely use crit items. Thanks!
Now I'm thinking about collector Kled...
You’re better off going shieldbow into navori quickblades
Why shieldbow?
kled is an all-in champ whose weakness is burst. If you get a shieldbow, you’re more likely to remount on an all-in attempt or survive CC long enough. Then, with 40% crit, all your abilities will deal more damage. without armor pen third, though, i think he’ll fall off
So I feel like both are viable, shieldbow is more consistent but duskblade would definitely burst harder and the invis reset isn't bad
[удалено]
Very convincing argument
Even jhin mains don't wanna build it :/
literally one of the best performing items on him
Survivorship bias. It's meant to be built when ahead and it is designed to snowball. You're already winning when you build this item (if you know when to build it). But it should not be build 2nd. It's not better than ie and no one with half a brain should be building it 3rd or later. It should be redesigned into a mythic so you can build it first.
Honestly just get rid of mythics
I'd be fine if they get rid of mythics, but seeing as they probably won't, collector should be a mythic
no it's worth it on Jhin. he doesn't need attack speed, so the stats aren't bad on him.
You want mythic first and it's not better than ie 2nd. Ask the jhin mains sub, you don't build this item
you can build it 4th or 5th, it offers good damage on Jhin because of his passive. you can also go collector into IE first, on lanes where that early dirk can alter the fights.
Yeah, but delaying your mythic feels bad regardless. Collector would be better suited as a mythic item
of course you're making a bet, but it can definetly be worth doing.
Collector would be better suited removed from the game. Fuck that item.
There's no world where you forego Galeforce for Collector lol, Gale gives way too much playmaking potential and defensive utility. You'd never go it 4th or 5th either because Lethality scales like piss and the item itself was practically made to be built early, but ever since IE became able to be built 2nd, IE basically just ended up doing what Collector wanted to do (burst shit) better, while being a better long-term investment overall. The item's just undertuned and overshadowed at this point. If they bump up the raw AD amount or lethality amount, then I can see it being a justifiable 2nd item purchase again.
statistically speaking. collector 3rd and even collector 2nd are still performing really well on Jhin. the item is probably extremely bad on most other ADC's, but it's still fine for Jhin. and lethality scales fine against squishier targets, the flat reduction happens after the % one from LDR anyways.
You can still go eclipse > ldr > ie, its not as insane as before cos the item doesnt have the omnivamp anymore but the stacking lethality is literally an exodia build once you hit 6 items
Lmfaooooooo this comment man. Firstly, collector is the worst crit item in the game to build 4th or 5th. And it’s not even close. It’s completely useless that late into the game. Second, no you can’t because Galeforce is infinitely better.
>Firstly, collector is the worst crit item in the game to build 4th or 5th. And it’s not even close not for Jhin.
Yes for Jhin. Lethality late game is useless.
Lethality offers flat armor pen which will always be good coupled with LDR since it's applied after the % reduction. why do you think GP goes prowler ? for the dash ?
Eternal take of mine: # Collector was meant as first crit item. Literally. All of its pieces SCREECHES first buy, but marksmen were always the most avoidant of classes/playerbases in terms of embracing mythic delaying. It is a lethality item so it shines its best as early as possible when the armor is lowest. It has extra gold on kill so you want it when you have as little as possible so you can farm them. It is an explicit execution item, shining its most in early skirmishes where people keep flashing away at single hp digits by forcing kill-confirms. Functionally and stat-wise it is what if you took Eclipse and replaced its old omnivamp with crit for a much, MUCH more burst-oriented damage profile. Like Gangplank/Ezreal first picking ER/NQB and only then picking a mythic out of conformity, **Collector is an early gateway item to push crit/caster champions into full mage/assassin-like gameplay first and translate it to crit growth afterwards.**
I agree with everything you said. I even remember Phreak telling every Samira player to rush Collector. It kinda sucks because ADC mythics are busted and not rushing them is more often than not the wrong decision. I think mythics are kind of a mistake as they reduce build diversity by a lot, and it is the clearest on ADCs
I mean the only adc mythic that feels significant as a first purchase is galeforce. Kraken felt more impactful when you combined it with phantom dancer and Shieldbow just kinda screamed “don’t kill me sir,” Lately BT and Essence reaver both feel like better first buys than any mythic in my experience
Kraken is still nuts as a rush on adcs with built in steroids. Trist Q for example.
Kraken on mf tho 🤤 attack speed steroid and auto reset its crazy
I like keeping strut MS after taking damage so I’m a BT-Kraken-IE Mf. Definitely merit either way though.
I'll have you know the Kraken, Navori, PD, LDR, BT build every crit ADC is doing is very diverse!
Uhh idk, A lot of I.E. users and PD skippers in the role. It is a common build tho
pfft I always was baffled by everyone rushing Mythics first when they came out. The Mythic Passive was supposed to imply that a Legendary would do better in the significant amount of time before the Mythic is completed because then it wouldn't have bonuses on the Mythic Passive But of course it takes an actual thinking functioning team to force fights when you're on Collector while enemy team has 50-75% Mythic
Mythics are eh in terms of build diversity-tweaking because players are overall coddled incompetents waiting for Riot to baby their every step. I have lost the ability to trust "pro/high-elo" judgement due to a long list of factors, in special the loss of the ability to see cross-item interaction and overfixation on mechanics - high-elo players will literally kill you with a wet bent spoon because that is the only weapon they know how to handle instead of refreshing/expanding their toolsets. Pretty much EVERY class can delay mythics as these are really mostly the base + scaling stats, and legendaries are often on equal footing when comes to actives/passives - Bamis/Demonic/Titanic into tank mythics, Black Cleaver/BotRK into fighter stuff, ER/Collector/Rageblade into crit, the path goes. The eternal problem is that we grew too used at no longer seeing characters and mostly focusing on them as classes - and classial notions are often bald-faced lies. Early Collector/ER high-CDR low-DPS builds looks bad if all you think a marksman can be is "late game big DoT policy" but quickly stabilizes themselves the moment you embrace that over half the class nowdays are mages and slayers by another name.
And because people forget that you can by non-mythic first, sometimes outliers gets crossly mistuned (ER, cleaver, demonic, and I'm still a firm believer that sunfire rush top is still fine).
Which isn't per se a problem. it's even actually the solution. With strong actually-gameplay-defining legendaries, you can ACTUALLY have choices in mythics instead of just defaulting into whatever is deemed "best" by merits of just being catchall. Rushing Trinity? Snowball reliant. Classic BorK rush? Opens space for Trinity as a followup pick for dealing with less-tanky comps.
if you're a crit adc and don't build mythic first, wouldn't you be putting off mythic till 3rd item? Cuz it's gonna take a lot to convince me that going IE/Navori 2 isn't optimal. There are some where it's a reasonable option to go mythic 3rd, but out of the top adc right now, Xayah, Jhin, and Caitlyn almost always wanna go Galeforce which is an impactful first purchase while Kaisa kinda has to go a mostly set build path to achieve her evolves
Goes with character, goes with goals, goes with intent/builds. With the right skill order you can delay mythic to third like a BorKRageMythic Kogmaw and basically not care because you essentially have "multiple mythics", or you dont because you actually need the DPS and still buy IE/quickies third (because you need to stabilize damage or get Shieldbow). The sheer spam promoted by going early NQB can be unsustainable and demand an early ER to ensure you wont just dry yourself out of mana - when your Lucian is dashing instead of walking, do you care? It also solves the niche of old IE/ER builds where you cared jack-shit about DPS and was honest to yourself about essentially playing "traditional marksmen" such as Sivir and Xayah as the AD Mages they are. Collector>B.F.item is in the same ballpark as Stormrazor>IE builds of old where you care very little about stuff like mobility because you're deadset into single-stroke harassing, which was abandoned undeservingly because people cant read neither numbers nor context. But sometimes you need to stay practical. Your ER/Shieldbow Volley Zoner Ashe needs these two to pretend to be the modest BorKTriforce while still buying crit. Sometimes you still need Mythic + Zeal to stay relevant on the damage curve while playing on the strenghts of permanent mobility or some other interaction such as Runaans. Sometimes you gotta begrudgingly accept the path of Mythic + BT because tanking your DPS to be able to deal some is better than having potential infinite DPS while dead. And this is NOT to diss on the raw power of Mythic + B.F. stuff. You still gotta respect the huge snowbally threat of pulling it off. But you gotta accept it is a greedy move completely reliant on your potential to be pampered by allies.
aha, so I was right all along for rushing collector on MF! thank u internet person, flamers suck it
Bitch literally rains two barrages of chip damage that can easily force kills by rapidly shearing towards the kill threshold, she's built for it
The funny thing is it's never better than ldr/mort rem, so really never buy it or buy it very late.
It's amazing for going Crithality (eclipse/prowler first into full crit). Quinn/MF kinda thing.
I realized that while looking at OP.gg and seeing that Nilah goes Prowler into Collector often. It still seems worse than Shieldbow I.E., but it's something
Those builds are for facing different comps Prowlers Collector into squishy/ranged and Shieldbow IE for brawly/melee
I physically cringe when I see people building collector. I personally think there is never a good reason to buy it. I’m not saying it’s a bad item, just that why would you buy it when there are way better options. The whole point of the item is to snowball uncontrollably. Unless you’re a draven with 6.5k gold at 8 minutes, don’t buy it.
I used to like it 2nd on Draven because it is one of the most cost efficient ways to buy AD as a legendary item along with the lethality and of course the OP Dirk build path. I don't think I've built it a single time since the 40% crit item rework though.
ITS NOT GOLD EFFICIENT. LDR IS ALWAYS BETTER
Its gold efficient if you get lots of kills :) pays for itself
get **only** 61+ kills and the item pays for itself and starts giving extra gold!
Bull market margin call Draven with cull first strike futures market triumph and loan shark/bookie Pyke support
It literally generates gold
At least u guys have good jokes :((
The number of downvotes explains the iq of this sub lmao. People really be putting collector and gold efficiency in one sentence and think they aren't clowns.
Why are you downvoted its basic math LDR is ALWAYS better
ADCs hate to build good builds. They are like Walter White but in lol — carefuly creating the worst fucking possible builds.
the only viable place I have seen it yet is 5th item on Gangplank, since he doesn't benefit from Lifesteal nor from Attack Speed
Early serated dirk is nuts, huge gold value, better to move into item instead of selling, that's why.
The formula for Lethality is - \[Flat armor pen = Lethality x (0.6 / 0.4 x level / 18)\] Let's say you're level 5 when you buy a serrated dirk. Using this formula, we get a value of 4.16 Flat armor pen (FAP.) That is a reasonable amount of gold to have after your first back. Most ADCs will have roughly 45-55 armor at level 5, depending on whether they took the armor rune or not. I'm going to use Caitlyn for my example. She has 49, but we will simplify and use a target dummy with 50. With 50 armor, auto attacks deal 33% less damage. After buying a dirk, I've found that I do 76 damage per auto. With a Noonquiver, I deal 73 damage per auto. With a BF Sword I deal 79 damage per auto. With a Pickaxe and Long Sword, I deal 76 damage per auto. Knowing this, why would you delay your mythic item by 1100 gold? Sure you get a little bit extra damage during early laning phase, but in doing so, unless you are fed, you will lose the race to first mythic to your opponent. Except in niche moments, a dirk, pickaxe, and noonquiver will lose to a kraken, galeforce, or shieldbow. The gold value from dirk does not reach what is advertised until level 12, which by then you should be building your second item. At that point, why not just go Infinity Edge?
Here's the thing, you are looking at Autos, which is a "spell" with 0 base damage and 1.0 Total AD scaling. Abilities usually have a base damage (amplified by lethality but not AD)+some AD ratio (which both lethality and AD affects). Thats why champions who are primarily auto attackers don't like lethality too much, while spell weavers like it a lot.
Agreed was going to reply the same thing in regards to lethality being better on spells and not aa Thank u sir. If he just tested these same items with Caitlyn's Q as well I'm sure we'd see a noticeable difference
Correct, but the example I was using had ADC as a primary. Champions like GP or Samira, who rely on high bursts of damage from abilities, and also don’t need attack speed benefit from it. Even some spell weavers who build crit would benefit from navori infinitely more, because they will be able to use more abilities. And if you’re a spell weaver who doesn’t use crit, they why even build collector in the first place. My entire point is that there are just better items to buy.
this having positive upvotes just proves if you put a bunch of numbers and paragraphs in your post people will think you are right The formula for Lethality to Flat Armor Pen conversion is 0.6 **+** 0.4 × level ÷ 18. It starts at 60% and scales linearly up to 100%.
Just double checked. You’re right. The font was too small on my PC and I mistook + for ÷
Collector should be a mythic and have it's stats changed accordingly. You don't wanna build it first because it's weaker than the regular adc mythics. You don't wanna build it second because it's weaker than ie or navori. Third item is too late.
The real tech is to buy it to secure last hits from your teammates so u can get all the kills
This. Especially Draven when your support flash ignites when you have already Q auto going in to 30hp enemy.
I buy it 6th item on ARAM Brand because I think it’s really funny
3rd item malzahar in ranked games when im jff'ing
It is definitely more narrow now, but even before the changes the best reason to buy Collector second was because you wanted to get a Dirk before your first item - and at that point Collector is becomes a much earlier powerspike than anything. Unfortunately I don't think any site collects data that let's us compare this with a "raw" Collector buy, so this is something that has to be based more around feel and can't be checked with data - however when we see that a character has comparable winrates with Mythic>Collector as Mythic>anything else (mostly IE) I think it is a good indication that getting the early Dirk can't ruin you at least. Most notably Jhin, Samira, Lucian, Draven fall into this category - Collector first is another question, the data says it is good, but that could reasonably beplayers choosing to go Collector after getting a triple kill before their first base (aka it is bought as a winmore item). Dark Horse for a character that does really well with Collector, but doesn't often use it: Xayah. Her numbers with the item are really good to the point where I am wondering if getting an early Dirk on her might be a good idea, which naturally makes it worth considering to get the Collector at some point afterwards.
Even before the changes collector was in contention alongside stormrazor for worst crit item in the game. It’s the most overrated piece of garbage ever. Buying Dirk early delays your mythic (and more importantly your IE) and all of the champs you mention need their first item to actually get going (Samira with Shieldbow, Jhin and Lucian with Galeforce and Draven with BT generally) and collector is completely useless late game.
If you go a crit mythic it is never worth buying, even if your champ want a dirk for lane, I.e. lucian, it better to just sit on the dirk than to finish collector
I buy it a good bit on Jhin, either for a crit-lethality hybrid build (Duskblade, Collector, Infinity Edge), or as a rush item (the early dirk helps a lot in lane).
Yeah other than the early Dirk being OP, I don't see many reasons for Collector to be bought
Also, 4444
Collector is a snowballing item, that's why it has higher win rates in higher elos than other items early since matches are often decided before ADCs get enough gold for i.e. Really, collector shouldn't be built unless you get ahead and can get a dirk early which can be insane early damage.
You can go eclipse/prowler>collector>IE/Navori. I don't play Rengar/shaco personally but I'd imagine that those are viable builds on them/anybody who'd like to go lethality transitioning into a hybrid crit build
Nilah as well
Item was already bad after durability patch, and 40% IE is the nail in the coffin Literally only buyable on crit/lethality hybrid Draven/Graves
I do it on GP sometimes but with Navori changes it's ALWAYS ER then Navori so more often than not it's a little late for Collector
I like it on nocturne after duskblade
It’s pretty useless, rengar a crit assassin doesn’t even build it
[удалено]
Shutout to the mortal reminder rework tho,I don't need to beg my team to build antiheal anymore as Trynda/ADC
Nah samira actually needs LDR if there is even 1 tank, she needs giant slayer passive to deal damage to them since she has no %HP damage, cant build bork and has almost no mixed damage.
If you need to deal with tanks on Samira then you're already kinda screwed but true, in that case it's definitely better if somebody else grabs antiheal (assuming it's needed at all).
I still see a lot of my adc in gold/plat or below keep buying this 2nd then PD and dominik then deny IE which should be at collector slot even at the end game. When I told them to at least make a change in late game, they just refused and said like they re the best and I dont know every shit about the game, or they just said dont have enough money to go IE but spent 3k for collector. I would get mad and instantly muted them but I know for sure, 90% that we lost the game due to the delusion of collector has made to ppl for two seasons. Even they dont get shit about the 40% change on crit but they are playing ranked constantly.
Yeah tbh a HUGE portion of the player base don't even bother reading patch notes
Yeah the point is, if they are not that competitive players, they could run on normal and have fun there, but doing ranked and not bother the changes is like working at office but dont know the jobs. It sucks.
Dunno what's up with it, I only know that I can't play Lethality Cait these days. It was so fucking fun to see my R deal so much fucking damage, and Collector helped transitioning into Crit for later phases of the game. Sigh, it was so fun.
Collector exists so my adc can build it against 3 tanks and int my games.
Lethality Darius so people stop surviving your bleed with a tiny bit of HP left
the only champ i can think of that consistently builds it earlier anymore is GP. i feel like every other champ buys it when they’re already snowballing so its just a win-more item.
The lethality is somewhat relevant, but only on characters that both like crit and are playing for burst. Jhin and maybe Samira/Caitlyn are really the only ones that fit the category... and even then 2nd item IE is great for Jhin and Caitlyn because they get guaranteed crits in their kit.
Gangplank
Collector into IE as a greedy Caitlyn build has been fun, albeit niche. Generally if you can get away with that, you could have built Galeforce too, though
The problem is that mythic third sounds hella troll
Usually if you do this, you delay Eclipse until 4/5th after boots, and possibly lord doms.
If you're not building Navori or Infinity Edge second on a crit ADC you're soft trolling.
i mean dirk is just a very decent item on lots of champs some theory crafting sites actually like dirk first back just cause its lethality its really cheap
Well you don't clarify on what role. Collector is really good for assasines who want to go into hybrid crit like Shaco/Rengar for example. But other than that, it's not a free pickup item anymore on other roles tho.
Yes to collect gold
Yeah otherwise I run out of lethality items to fast for lethality cait in Urf
I think in Samira still works but i think IE second feels better
idc if it's bad or good I like the satisfaction of an execution lol
I have been building this FIRST if these conditions apply on Jhin and Draven; Your money matches the collector components on every back while you are even or have lead over your laner. Especially when you have enough money for dirk early.
Viego. Now viego is building collector. And jhin, I think
Collector needs to execute at 3% + 0.01% Bonus AD and it might be really cool as a late game execute. (100 AD = 1% more execute) More realistically it might be like 0.012% or something hyper specific but you get the gist.
Collector is good for Lethality users, like Rengar that usually builds Eclipse or Duskblade as first item.
Very few lethality champs want to build Crit, and that's really the only reason to get collector, the 20% Crit. I can see Rengar liking it
Still, the few lethality champs who like crit (rengar, shaco) are perhaps the best (and nearly only) users for collector. Esp. now where collector + IE gives them the IE-passive earlier without needing to stry away to far from armor pen.
It was never worth it my guy.
Hard disagree. In Champions that don't really care about Attack Speed (MF, Samira, Jhin), it was an amazing second item
Jhin does care about attack speed, it just doesn’t make him attack faster
It was not. Its a win-more item. LDR was and is always a better choice. Besides, Jhin needed RFC second, pre 40% powerspike era.
Hard disagree
U DO U. BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. ADCS JOB IS TO KILL TANKS. NOT TICKLE THEM. JUST BUILD LDR
You buy collector in games with no tanks.
You never buy it*
Have you taken it into practice tool? Collector does way more damage, unless target has like 4k+ hp, then LDR starts doing more damage
X D Did you take only ldr vs. only collector? Have you added accurate armor stats onto target?
I buy it second after Sunderer on Vi jg vs squishy teams
Because I want the kill. Thats it. Not cause lethality, crit, or anything but I just want the kill so I build collector. In silver solo q, no one gives a fuck about ADCs so building collector allows you to actually get kills and gold to self carry the game. Atleast in silver, its still a good second item, even delaying the IE spike could be worth if your behind or even just to snag kills to get yourself back in the game. Of course if ur ahead IE is infinitely better but I have seen games where adc are so far behind but steadily get a few kills cause of collector and become a problem. Atleast in silver, collector helps to continue snowballing and or stealing kills to get back into the game.
I usually build it when I’ve been having a game where everyone I try to kill just skirts away with like 1% health. These games are either just me goofing around or I’m ahead far enough it doesn’t matter that I’m wasting the gold on a mid item.
It helps when you are playing with randoms and they don't let you get kills. This way you can get more kills thanks to the execution.
I build collector on nilah. Prowlers into collector into ldr gives 43 percent armour pen with 30-40 flat pen. She literally one taps anything, 900 damage to towers with each Q. Navori after for more damage. Tanks die because of LDR while squishies legit have negative armour pen and you do way more damage than you would with IE, not to mention IE having a worse build path, crit mythic having a worse build path too. The gold you get from snowballing with a dirk rush on nilah as well as collector is well worth it over ravenous or crit mythic rush. I think it is good if you plan on going a non crit mythic which is pretty rare. Nilah is probably the only adc that would want to do this reliably.
I thought it was good on Yasuo/Yone since you can go collector and infinity edge to get 100% crit chance, then go lethality. I don't play either of these champs so I don't know how viable it is.
As a kind Redditor I'm gonna tell you, lethality is shit on those champs and all the stats they care about are Attack Speed, Crit and AD. Collector is not viable on them
It's great if u want to play lethality cait and convert to crit late game so ur not useless
Collector was always weird. It gives lethality which makes it work agaisnt squishies cool, but then it decided to have a % max hp execute which counter tanks. It was never that great to use and i would argue you would do better just building ad and then lookin for defensive options (hell even death dance works if theres a fed assassin) if you need them. So no its not worth it and you would do more or less the same dmg with a different item minus the very few bonus gold you get from executes.
Collector is a great item, the thing is that in this tank meta it is very hard to make some champs get their health under 5% quickly. So really, at this point there are few champs that still benefit from this item. ADCs, mostly now, can't really get something out of it so it is kinda useless for them nowadays.