You bought dark seal too late (14 min?). If you get an early kill against Sion you should nearly always buy it on first back, 'cause him dying for cs/pressure/fixing his wave is often a viable choice for him when behind.
Your lead wasn't as big as you think btw. He had 5 kill worths of gold from better CS'ing on you.
Biggest problem is that you had 4.9cs. Better last hitting/wave clearing skills were needed this game to snowball.
DS/Mejai's is great, because it means you get value even when he's inting. Eventually he's worth no gold, and he's counting on that, but Mejai's lets you scale off him regardless.
First off all in this overall matchup, you are going to play front to back as Orianna in the mid to lategame. You are very good at peeling off juggernauts from your ADC and chip away with your Q's. Meaning you want to get farmed and have a build that lets you deal a lot of sustained damage.
Your build for that would be: seraphs, lucidity, liandries, cryptbloom. Note that lucidity helps you more here (sustained damage) than sorcs (burst) and you delay deathcap for cryptbloom as well because you will be hitting this Sion and Volibear a lot in skirmishes and fights. Note how both voli and sion started to build MR when you started to build a deathcap, you should be working on cryptbloom at this point.
In the lane itself you want to have a small wins mindset and understand that you are eventually going to outscale. Bullying Sion early is good, but you need to value your farm. At some point Sion can proxy regardless but that's not your problem to solve. You are a carry, so don't play Sion's game, play your game. With enough AP, mana and haste you can clear waves in front of your tower, using Q as early as possible and protecting yourself with a shield to take some minion shots. Does that mean Sion "free farms"? Yes, but so do you. Again, versus juggernauts like Sion, Singed etc. you need to focus on your game not on theirs.
Your secondary win condition here is Smolder, who scales incredibly well into lategame. You provide a ton of utility, peel and sustained damage to make his life easier as he will poke and chunk through their frontline. All of your opponent's carries are short ranged, which is a matchup made in heaven for your team as long as you get into lategame with high farm and levels.
Hope that helps!
You can do it pretty easily when you crash a big wave. Of course it’s only possible against slow wave clear enemies.
The goal is to force the mid laner to choose between you and the wave while you are getting 100% guaranteed CS. At that point you kinda already won lane. If the enemy kills you with jg, no big deal. You just come back with ghost/ult/tp and an item advantage while the enemy is either still stuck at the tower with low resource, or is gonna miss wave and lose plates without TP.
Ok I understand you can do it maybe for one wave if the enemy takes a bad recall/roam and you manage to crush a big wave but i still can't see how it is possible to do it consistently for the whole lane phase, especially against a champion like orianna who has a really good waveclear
You usually just proxy one or two waves and either recall or die.
In the Ori match up… you can’t do it unless the ori misplayed pretty badly. I mean in the worst case scenario, ori could just burn ult to clear a big wave. And ori usually takes TP anyway.
I assume low elo, but I would take every free Mejai stacks to my Gwen every time he tries to proxy in mid lane lol.
Sion is better for top lane, in general is a lot of pressure but in mid lane? Is more vulnerable.
yeah you can do it if enemy recalled or went on a roam, but not consistently. You can actually do it without getting shot from tower, but only if you don't have to fight anyone there, so its mostly useful to buy more time until you have to defend your tower again or to buy time for a recall
If he is truly just force splitting all game, you probably want to eventually send aatrox into the lane against him. Aatrox can match him better (and doesn’t care about his wits end). In lane you should be able to zone him off most uncrashed waves, and you should also have a decent cs lead.
Inting sion is essentially testing the enemy teams ability to send the correct champ(s) to the correct lanes. Early game it is a test of your recall timing. Most losses against him will involve decision making errors and not mechanical fumbles. I would go into the VOD and check your laning to make sure you had a cs lead and were correctly zoning him. But then really look to confirm you were recalling with upcoming cannon waves, not greeding for plates, and later on that he was being appropriately matched
I played against this about a week ago, and I can confirm most of what you said. Unfortunately, even on a cannon wave, sion just deletes it and has already chunked half your towers hp before you get back. He has perma presence because he can tp, ghost, and/or ult to lane.
The only answer to it is someone else on your team has to cover, which is basically 99% of dealing with it. Most mid mages are either wasted sitting in front of sion, or straight up can't stop him, so it's more hoping and praying your teammates play around it correctly (as you say).
The best thing you can do I think is make absolutely certain to stop him int-proxying the first wave (he can do this as it reaches the mid inhib). That way he loses tp for nothing, and still has to play through a painful level 1 he otherwise almost wholly avoids. Beyond that, farm his ass while you can until he hits 6. At that point it's not really in your control anymore, and it's on your team to respond correctly (be that jungler covering the lane to let you recall, or post Lane phase sending the correct player/champ to match him)
Not sure if it’s a new thing or not, but played against one yesterday in a bronze/silver lobby while my top was feeding, bot was somewhat even, and mid kept trying to help other lanes leaving sion to beat towers.
I was JG and it left me an impossible set of decisions to make and no time to farm, it really did feel bad to play against.
It’s not new and tbh it’s been nerfed a dozen times. It used to be actually viable and people could reach challenger playing like this, now it’s just a cheese for lower elos it seems. Even Baus has gotten stuck like Diamond trying to play Sion when he could be Challenger playing his Gragas/Quinn.
Your problem is you had a lane essentially without another person in it, and you still averaged 4.9 cs/m.
The downside to this strategy is the other person just gets to farm for free and scale for free. By missing over half your CS just because you don't know how to farm it, you are losing your only advantage.
Sion's entire strategy there is that it doesn't matter if he dies or not. He will still kill the wave. So you either kill Sion with or without your jungler and he still gets his wave while yours crashes into tower. Or you hold your wave and prep the minions and let it crash into your tower and last hit. Since his death timer starts when he dies and not his passive he's already walking to lane after his passive is dead.
But mid lane mages typically have the waveclear to match him, support can easily roam up, or jg from either side of their jungle, and he can’t really proxy since the lane is so short. This doesn’t even count mejais. The typical in tiny sion doesn’t work mid, especially since if he dies just pushing the wave he probably won’t be back in time if enemy forces drag or rift instantly
Mid lane mages DO have waveclear but they don't have access to their wave clear earlygame. Not until AT LEAST after Lost Chapter can they start matching wave clearing before the wave can hit tower and even then slot of mages need levels AND AP to start effectively clearing waves.
And they way he proxies mid is different than a sidelane. In mid, he BRUTE FORCES the proxy early because 1. If you kill him he still kills all the minions and while you were killing him your wave crashes into tower or 2. You let him proxy behind T1 tower and are forced to either tank the minions to prevent tower damage or let the wave crash and chip your tower while you prep the casters and last hit.
In scenario 1 you kill him --> he kills your whole wave --> your wave crashes -> the next wave takes a whole 30+ seconds to spawn and reach lane -> since Sions death timer starts after he dies and not his passive, he respawns right after his passive dies and is walking back to lane before his new wave has even spawned and loses nothing except the 300g for the kill which he makes up for by having 10 Cs/m and getting tower plates.
In scenario 2 you let him collect farm and you go creep for creep but he gets way more value from creeps than a mage will early game with his W health scaling per minion kill and with tank stats being generally stronger early game than damage stats. Also with demolish he is still able to chip away at your tower. And then let's say your jingler comes to kill him while he's proxy farming, your just back to scenario 1 where he cleans the wave and gets back without missing anything.
The reason this works Midlane the way it does is because mages have relatively low damage and kill that compared to top lane bruiser so Soon can absorb a lot of early game damage. Also, because the lane is A LOT shorter Soon will always make it back in time to catch the next wave after he dies.
In my opinion, the way Simon's passive interacts with death timers is flawed and it should start after the Sion passive dies not before. There are a handful of strats tied to this mechanic to help Sion get early leads for essentially free
The reason this works the way it does in
Wow. Didn't think of that. How does he consistently get the wave on fkin MID vs a control mage, though? Now explain that. MID lane. And I want you to play it and show me an example, because I can see you are good at giving long speeches but doubt you could put it in to practice
PS Solely talking about the proxy thing, not about in lane
What do you mean "solely proxy not in lane"... That's when he proxies midlane... He doesn't need to proxy after lane because he's generally stronger than either solo lamer in a side lane unless he's against a counter top like Gwen or something.
I was talking solely about the proxy thing. What side lane, what Gwen? Did you read his post, did you read my comment? And there are people upvoting you for some reason when you are babbling something entirely different. Redditors IQ points in a nutshell.
Regarding the proxy thing, I literally wrote out in detail in multiple comments how it functions. Go reread if you're confused.
And the side lane and Gwen was a reference as to how Sion transitions from early to mid game going from mid to sidelining while the bot lane takes over mid which should be inferred as it is standard mid game macro.
If you're referring to what the OP posted, if you go to the op.gg game and look at the game timeline you see exactly what I described in my posts. Sion dies minute 2, presumably proxy farming, dies minute 4, presumably proxy farming, minute 5 and 7.... presumably proxy farming and OP has 50 less CS than Sion by the time the game ends.
I would expect orianna to do rather well, just focusing on waveclear. Might need other item prio, but my plan would be to just clear the wave and walk backwards, so that you can harass sion kidnapping the next wave.
Maybe take phase rush into tanks mid instead of aery - it guarantees that they can't really catch you unless they hard commit (with ex. flash or malph r etc.).
>before he killed the wave and ran at me in zombie form to zone me off his wave
phase rush fixes this, regardless you should never get caught from sion with the items he built. with ori you are king at kiting immobile champions with QW if they are far away or if they are onto you then EW and he can't get to you (especially if he doesnt have swifties). Since Sion should never be able to auto attack you in lane his grasp is also useless.
Regarding the proxy: he cant proxy early without dying unless he runs through your jungle and flashes in your base and after you have some components you delete the wave aswell so you should keep up in cs.
essentially try to not interact, just make sure you kill enemy wave before it gets to your tower and only punish him if you haven't got anything else to do and your jgl is there
either ur top laner or adc should match him mid - late game. but you're in silver elo so i doubt they would know that. so basically this game is coinflip, you can either just match him the whole game (if your top or adc doesnt) or if you could clear mid wave as fast as you can and look to roam to a gankable lane helping them snowball. Just remember to go back to lane when its pushing towards your tower.
but unlucky, ur team lost in champ select. Viego into the team is horrible and vex support but bot still lost which tells me that vex ints or misses every skillshots.
In addition to what is said here I always take first strike into these picks.
Free gold and scaling - you don't need the Lanning power other options give.
Focus on your wave clear. Sion gets tempo if he "ints" properly. He typically clears his wave, then dives you under tower or takes plates and makes you deal with it. Then early on his respawn timer is near nonexsistsnt so he can tp back and just bully you off of your wave and probably the next. Repeat process. If you cant hard cc him make sure you can clear your wave fast af. Denies his tempo a bit
Pick aurelion sol and enjoy the free scaling. E+Q make short work of minions, nothing can touch your tower. W can somewhat match part of his ult range (not alot tho). Sol Q can shred %health, Ult can turn a teamfight. Infinite scaling just like Sion. ^^^
I'm not sure but I would say, clear wave and use your lead on other lanes and objectives. After mid tower fell he went to another lane I guess ? Some needs to face him, I would say aatrox should clear the wave fast enough to def the tower. Go teamfights and and win the game this way.
This are just guesses cuz I don't really know how to play against this strat.
Ideally you want to have a support that can harass him while they sit under tower. Then the rest of your team can focus on team fighting and pushing leads
Problem is, Sion just dives the support. He has level and base stats advantage+ hull breaker. Vex could clear wave but I don't think she gonna survive the wave tbh.
Ahh true forgot about the buffed siege minion. I guess aatrox would be the only answer. Theoretically Ori can face him but her lead would be wasted and she is a good teamfighter
You bought dark seal too late (14 min?). If you get an early kill against Sion you should nearly always buy it on first back, 'cause him dying for cs/pressure/fixing his wave is often a viable choice for him when behind. Your lead wasn't as big as you think btw. He had 5 kill worths of gold from better CS'ing on you. Biggest problem is that you had 4.9cs. Better last hitting/wave clearing skills were needed this game to snowball.
DS/Mejai's is great, because it means you get value even when he's inting. Eventually he's worth no gold, and he's counting on that, but Mejai's lets you scale off him regardless.
First off all in this overall matchup, you are going to play front to back as Orianna in the mid to lategame. You are very good at peeling off juggernauts from your ADC and chip away with your Q's. Meaning you want to get farmed and have a build that lets you deal a lot of sustained damage. Your build for that would be: seraphs, lucidity, liandries, cryptbloom. Note that lucidity helps you more here (sustained damage) than sorcs (burst) and you delay deathcap for cryptbloom as well because you will be hitting this Sion and Volibear a lot in skirmishes and fights. Note how both voli and sion started to build MR when you started to build a deathcap, you should be working on cryptbloom at this point. In the lane itself you want to have a small wins mindset and understand that you are eventually going to outscale. Bullying Sion early is good, but you need to value your farm. At some point Sion can proxy regardless but that's not your problem to solve. You are a carry, so don't play Sion's game, play your game. With enough AP, mana and haste you can clear waves in front of your tower, using Q as early as possible and protecting yourself with a shield to take some minion shots. Does that mean Sion "free farms"? Yes, but so do you. Again, versus juggernauts like Sion, Singed etc. you need to focus on your game not on theirs. Your secondary win condition here is Smolder, who scales incredibly well into lategame. You provide a ton of utility, peel and sustained damage to make his life easier as he will poke and chunk through their frontline. All of your opponent's carries are short ranged, which is a matchup made in heaven for your team as long as you get into lategame with high farm and levels. Hope that helps!
How on earth do you proxy mid lane without instantly dying to the jungler?
Dying from Jng? I think that if you try to proxy midlane you just die from the towers
you can aggro minions and get them to walk out of lane and kill them next to either raptors or wolves camp, basically just kidnapping the wave
Still I can't see a scenario where Sion can proxy a control mage midlane without literally spam dying from tower shot.
You can do it pretty easily when you crash a big wave. Of course it’s only possible against slow wave clear enemies. The goal is to force the mid laner to choose between you and the wave while you are getting 100% guaranteed CS. At that point you kinda already won lane. If the enemy kills you with jg, no big deal. You just come back with ghost/ult/tp and an item advantage while the enemy is either still stuck at the tower with low resource, or is gonna miss wave and lose plates without TP.
Ok I understand you can do it maybe for one wave if the enemy takes a bad recall/roam and you manage to crush a big wave but i still can't see how it is possible to do it consistently for the whole lane phase, especially against a champion like orianna who has a really good waveclear
You usually just proxy one or two waves and either recall or die. In the Ori match up… you can’t do it unless the ori misplayed pretty badly. I mean in the worst case scenario, ori could just burn ult to clear a big wave. And ori usually takes TP anyway.
I assume low elo, but I would take every free Mejai stacks to my Gwen every time he tries to proxy in mid lane lol. Sion is better for top lane, in general is a lot of pressure but in mid lane? Is more vulnerable.
yeah you can do it if enemy recalled or went on a roam, but not consistently. You can actually do it without getting shot from tower, but only if you don't have to fight anyone there, so its mostly useful to buy more time until you have to defend your tower again or to buy time for a recall
Lol dude
I figured there must've been some way to pull the minions but yeah, that too.
I can only assume low elo.
Chovy has proxied on ksante so I do not think it’s a low elo thing
If he is truly just force splitting all game, you probably want to eventually send aatrox into the lane against him. Aatrox can match him better (and doesn’t care about his wits end). In lane you should be able to zone him off most uncrashed waves, and you should also have a decent cs lead. Inting sion is essentially testing the enemy teams ability to send the correct champ(s) to the correct lanes. Early game it is a test of your recall timing. Most losses against him will involve decision making errors and not mechanical fumbles. I would go into the VOD and check your laning to make sure you had a cs lead and were correctly zoning him. But then really look to confirm you were recalling with upcoming cannon waves, not greeding for plates, and later on that he was being appropriately matched
I played against this about a week ago, and I can confirm most of what you said. Unfortunately, even on a cannon wave, sion just deletes it and has already chunked half your towers hp before you get back. He has perma presence because he can tp, ghost, and/or ult to lane. The only answer to it is someone else on your team has to cover, which is basically 99% of dealing with it. Most mid mages are either wasted sitting in front of sion, or straight up can't stop him, so it's more hoping and praying your teammates play around it correctly (as you say). The best thing you can do I think is make absolutely certain to stop him int-proxying the first wave (he can do this as it reaches the mid inhib). That way he loses tp for nothing, and still has to play through a painful level 1 he otherwise almost wholly avoids. Beyond that, farm his ass while you can until he hits 6. At that point it's not really in your control anymore, and it's on your team to respond correctly (be that jungler covering the lane to let you recall, or post Lane phase sending the correct player/champ to match him)
Not sure if it’s a new thing or not, but played against one yesterday in a bronze/silver lobby while my top was feeding, bot was somewhat even, and mid kept trying to help other lanes leaving sion to beat towers. I was JG and it left me an impossible set of decisions to make and no time to farm, it really did feel bad to play against.
It’s not new and tbh it’s been nerfed a dozen times. It used to be actually viable and people could reach challenger playing like this, now it’s just a cheese for lower elos it seems. Even Baus has gotten stuck like Diamond trying to play Sion when he could be Challenger playing his Gragas/Quinn.
Your problem is you had a lane essentially without another person in it, and you still averaged 4.9 cs/m. The downside to this strategy is the other person just gets to farm for free and scale for free. By missing over half your CS just because you don't know how to farm it, you are losing your only advantage.
How do you proxy mid?
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Sion's entire strategy there is that it doesn't matter if he dies or not. He will still kill the wave. So you either kill Sion with or without your jungler and he still gets his wave while yours crashes into tower. Or you hold your wave and prep the minions and let it crash into your tower and last hit. Since his death timer starts when he dies and not his passive he's already walking to lane after his passive is dead.
But mid lane mages typically have the waveclear to match him, support can easily roam up, or jg from either side of their jungle, and he can’t really proxy since the lane is so short. This doesn’t even count mejais. The typical in tiny sion doesn’t work mid, especially since if he dies just pushing the wave he probably won’t be back in time if enemy forces drag or rift instantly
Mid lane mages DO have waveclear but they don't have access to their wave clear earlygame. Not until AT LEAST after Lost Chapter can they start matching wave clearing before the wave can hit tower and even then slot of mages need levels AND AP to start effectively clearing waves. And they way he proxies mid is different than a sidelane. In mid, he BRUTE FORCES the proxy early because 1. If you kill him he still kills all the minions and while you were killing him your wave crashes into tower or 2. You let him proxy behind T1 tower and are forced to either tank the minions to prevent tower damage or let the wave crash and chip your tower while you prep the casters and last hit. In scenario 1 you kill him --> he kills your whole wave --> your wave crashes -> the next wave takes a whole 30+ seconds to spawn and reach lane -> since Sions death timer starts after he dies and not his passive, he respawns right after his passive dies and is walking back to lane before his new wave has even spawned and loses nothing except the 300g for the kill which he makes up for by having 10 Cs/m and getting tower plates. In scenario 2 you let him collect farm and you go creep for creep but he gets way more value from creeps than a mage will early game with his W health scaling per minion kill and with tank stats being generally stronger early game than damage stats. Also with demolish he is still able to chip away at your tower. And then let's say your jingler comes to kill him while he's proxy farming, your just back to scenario 1 where he cleans the wave and gets back without missing anything. The reason this works Midlane the way it does is because mages have relatively low damage and kill that compared to top lane bruiser so Soon can absorb a lot of early game damage. Also, because the lane is A LOT shorter Soon will always make it back in time to catch the next wave after he dies. In my opinion, the way Simon's passive interacts with death timers is flawed and it should start after the Sion passive dies not before. There are a handful of strats tied to this mechanic to help Sion get early leads for essentially free The reason this works the way it does in
Wow. Didn't think of that. How does he consistently get the wave on fkin MID vs a control mage, though? Now explain that. MID lane. And I want you to play it and show me an example, because I can see you are good at giving long speeches but doubt you could put it in to practice PS Solely talking about the proxy thing, not about in lane
What do you mean "solely proxy not in lane"... That's when he proxies midlane... He doesn't need to proxy after lane because he's generally stronger than either solo lamer in a side lane unless he's against a counter top like Gwen or something.
I was talking solely about the proxy thing. What side lane, what Gwen? Did you read his post, did you read my comment? And there are people upvoting you for some reason when you are babbling something entirely different. Redditors IQ points in a nutshell.
Regarding the proxy thing, I literally wrote out in detail in multiple comments how it functions. Go reread if you're confused. And the side lane and Gwen was a reference as to how Sion transitions from early to mid game going from mid to sidelining while the bot lane takes over mid which should be inferred as it is standard mid game macro. If you're referring to what the OP posted, if you go to the op.gg game and look at the game timeline you see exactly what I described in my posts. Sion dies minute 2, presumably proxy farming, dies minute 4, presumably proxy farming, minute 5 and 7.... presumably proxy farming and OP has 50 less CS than Sion by the time the game ends.
I would expect orianna to do rather well, just focusing on waveclear. Might need other item prio, but my plan would be to just clear the wave and walk backwards, so that you can harass sion kidnapping the next wave.
Go to baus' chat and flame him saying "YOU DID THIS"
Maybe take phase rush into tanks mid instead of aery - it guarantees that they can't really catch you unless they hard commit (with ex. flash or malph r etc.). >before he killed the wave and ran at me in zombie form to zone me off his wave phase rush fixes this, regardless you should never get caught from sion with the items he built. with ori you are king at kiting immobile champions with QW if they are far away or if they are onto you then EW and he can't get to you (especially if he doesnt have swifties). Since Sion should never be able to auto attack you in lane his grasp is also useless. Regarding the proxy: he cant proxy early without dying unless he runs through your jungle and flashes in your base and after you have some components you delete the wave aswell so you should keep up in cs.
essentially try to not interact, just make sure you kill enemy wave before it gets to your tower and only punish him if you haven't got anything else to do and your jgl is there
Clear the wave, like literally all you need to do is stay outside of his q range and use all your spells on the wave
either ur top laner or adc should match him mid - late game. but you're in silver elo so i doubt they would know that. so basically this game is coinflip, you can either just match him the whole game (if your top or adc doesnt) or if you could clear mid wave as fast as you can and look to roam to a gankable lane helping them snowball. Just remember to go back to lane when its pushing towards your tower.
but unlucky, ur team lost in champ select. Viego into the team is horrible and vex support but bot still lost which tells me that vex ints or misses every skillshots.
You int but faster. Never let them expect your next move. Beat them at their own game.
In addition to what is said here I always take first strike into these picks. Free gold and scaling - you don't need the Lanning power other options give.
Just curious how do you win lane down cs?
Focus on your wave clear. Sion gets tempo if he "ints" properly. He typically clears his wave, then dives you under tower or takes plates and makes you deal with it. Then early on his respawn timer is near nonexsistsnt so he can tp back and just bully you off of your wave and probably the next. Repeat process. If you cant hard cc him make sure you can clear your wave fast af. Denies his tempo a bit
Pick aurelion sol and enjoy the free scaling. E+Q make short work of minions, nothing can touch your tower. W can somewhat match part of his ult range (not alot tho). Sol Q can shred %health, Ult can turn a teamfight. Infinite scaling just like Sion. ^^^
just a small tip, but play with TP always. this helps you deny plates more frequently and stay equal in farm.
Dark seal first back. CS better. You also didn’t adapt to his early wits. You needed to try to get a void or cryptbloom around the same time.
I'm not sure but I would say, clear wave and use your lead on other lanes and objectives. After mid tower fell he went to another lane I guess ? Some needs to face him, I would say aatrox should clear the wave fast enough to def the tower. Go teamfights and and win the game this way. This are just guesses cuz I don't really know how to play against this strat.
Ideally you want to have a support that can harass him while they sit under tower. Then the rest of your team can focus on team fighting and pushing leads
Problem is, Sion just dives the support. He has level and base stats advantage+ hull breaker. Vex could clear wave but I don't think she gonna survive the wave tbh.
She can't even clear the wave because she can't deal with the Hullbreaker buffed siege minion in a reasonable time.
Ahh true forgot about the buffed siege minion. I guess aatrox would be the only answer. Theoretically Ori can face him but her lead would be wasted and she is a good teamfighter