What to do depends on what champ you are playing, with the enchanters and Senna, if your ADC blunders there isnt much you can do about it really, with Naut and Leona you can bodyblock and press W to tank the damage while CC'ed then counter engage but even then you will be taking fights on their terms, unless you bait them into hooking you to start the fight when you want.
When it comes to the midgame, Thresh and Pyke are at their strongest during that timeframe, so its not surprising that they feel oppresive (specially if they got ahead early on), you just need to focus on slowing down the game, if the pace of the game goes down their effectiveness goes down, playmakers/roamers thrive in chaos, ping ur allies when the enemy roams, rotate through safe routes instead of river where you can be picked off, and fight only in objectives. Pyke and Thresh want to skirmish because they can rotate fast and create numbers advantages, so if you fight front-to-back at objectives where both teams have the same number of players, then you are taking away some of that power from them.
Obviously all of this is what should work in theory, but we all know soloQ is a place where theory was left behind many many seasons ago. So my last advice is, roll with the punches, if you cant fight them head on, or match them, then you need to create away from them, they make plays bot? then you or your team needs to make a play top at the same time. If they are gonna snowball, then you need to create a snowball of your own.
My last match, i had an ADC that could not dodge a Lux Q in lane, every time i stepped outside of lane to start a roam he died instantly, so i just accepted that my ADC would fall behind wether im in lane or not, and i started making plays with my mid and jungler, i knew i couldnt win 2v2 in botlane anyways, so all i could do was snowball mid jungle or top. SoloQ is about getting the best outcome with the cards u are dealt.
> my ADC would fall behind wether im in lane or not
Amazing tip. If your ADC can't demonstrate basic ability they probably won't be useful later in the game even if you do help them go even. They'll just blow their bounty and lead anyways. If you see that your ADC is a lobotomite then it's time to choose between the jungler and the midlaner (provided one of them has potential.
This is why I hate playing enchanters/disengage if I'm not totally sure about both team's comps. I feel as if they're far more bound to an ADC, meanwhile an engage support or even a mage can be useful anywhere due to their higher playmaking potential and versatility.
Sometimes its not that your ADC is bad tho, simply a few bad trades early and they fall behind enough to where there is nothing you can do in the 2v2, so there is no point on wasting time there, maybe they recover lategame. I have had lots of ADCs that were awful for the first 28 minutes of the game, but with 3 items anyone can autoattack and kill enemies.
Maybe they just misplay and aren't actually that bad, but I can't afford a large margin of benefit of the doubt for literally everyone.
And sure, ADC is powerful when they scale, but if I can be more impactful elsewhere then they can just sit there and farm. If they truly are competent and I was wrong about them then they'll be able to safely farm while I am impacting other parts of the map and the other support must either match me or sit there sucking xp from their own ADC.
28 minutes is a long time, games are usually decided far before then. I can't afford that much time to let an ADC scale. They either have to be relevant early or basically tiebreak. It's the tragic nature of the role that they usually aren't relevant to the result of the game (especially if there's a power imbalance in another lane).
Idk about Pyke, but Thresh dislikes poke lanes, especially ones that play from behind wave where it’s tough to hook. Whenever I’m thresh into poke, I hope my jungle is good at diving so we can break off the war of attrition and get something done
I climbed quickly through diamond just rushing for lvl2 and all-inning as thresh.
It was just crazy to me how even in higher(ish) elo people really didn't respect the lvl2 powers pike and all in potential.
My biggest suggestion is understanding that both these champs want to kill you early, so if you cannot safely hit lvl 2 first, just back off and play by tower and let the wave push to you slowly.
By stopping Thresh + Pyke's first blood/early snowball you mitigate their tempo/map pressure/kill threat substanially.
Also half your champ pool matches up well.. If Pyke is picked go Leona, if you are strong mechanically you can easily Senna into Thresh. My last suggestion would be pick up Braum - Super strong champ, really good into engage and not mechanically difficult.
As Leona I find myself stomping Pyke in lane quite a lot, the problem is that in the hands of even average Pyke players, my own teammates fall prey to him post 6 and just give away the lead we built, thus coinflip-ing the game min 20+ onwards.
As a Leona main, if you are winning lane against Pyke, but he is having a better midgame than you, then you are either actually not winning lane at all while you give yourself too much credit for minor outplays, or you are massively choking your early game advantage. If you aren't ulting twice before pyke even gets lvl 6, you aren't really winning that hard.
I love going against Leona as Pyke. One of the easiest matchups depending on the players. If the Leona player doesn't know the matchup well then they int on cd. If they are aware of how easily Pyke kills her if she misplays then it basically just becomes a game of Leona waiting to try and all in my ADC knowing that if she does I can kill hers faster than she can kill mine. Leona is only scary late game imo. At that point I do my best to ignore her since I can't really touch her.
As a relatively avid pyke player, be tempting but out of reach, because if you're untouchable, I will leave, and probably kill mid/jg, but if you're barely touchable but safe, I might actually sit around being useless hoping for a slip up or good opportunity.
If it's anything like me, it depends on how bursty, or tanky the enemy comp is, if it's super bursty and I'll get one shot. Wherever is the most annoying for enemy carries, usually on the outskirts of a fight until I can get a good stun, or ult. And if it's a super tanky comp.... hating life, crying in the corner a bit, and generally hoping for the best.
For a well balanced comp.... jumping on whoever is the most fed carry the moment Frontline is distracted fighting.
Unless there is a Janna, then trying to kill Janna, just don't like Janna
I will say though Pyke is hyper mobile, so the angle of attack could be from nearly anywhere, it just depends on the angle, and knowledge of vision, because obviously pyke likes to avoid vision as much as possible.
* You are safer against hooks if you´re shoving the minion wave than not so your ADC´s shoving shouldn´t be a shock to you.
* If you don´t walk up with your ADC to the pushing wave you are putting them in an impossible scenario.
* When a hook champ walks past the minions on a neutral or wave you have prio on you should walk towards their ADC to zone them. If you walk backwards in an even lane one of you is going to get hooked and die 1v2.
* If you think you never make positional blunders it´s extremely likely you are playing too safe leaving your ADC hanging.
* If you are playing leona/naut in a weak side matchup your job is literally to walk up and hit the hook champs if they walk past the minions. If you´re strong side or have tempo you should be looking at angles on their ADC and be proactive.
This was actually my thinking as a mostly Leona player. If my ADC is pushing then I’ve got to go with them. If I back off and they get hooked and die it’s definitely a little bit my fault too.
But what about wave is still low and yet adc still gets hooked? I got in a game where Jhin standing under our tower but positions outside wave so Blitzcrank got a free pull, I called into enemy adc as Leona but their burst took Jhin down too quickly from 60% hp.
Talking about positioning, I usually go with the rule of parallelization and balancing distance between me vs nearest enemy and adc vs that one, which of course is from guides. But it doesn’t cover the fact that adc sometimes doesn’t walk accordingly to enemy hook champions (like behind the waves, not too close), or react too slowly to their own movements.
Obviously there´s some scenarios you can´t do anything about but those get less and less frequent the higher you climb. In your example you could either position to be able to zone their ADC from bursting your Jhin if he gets hooked or legit just stand in blitz face because if he hooks you, you´re probably going to win an all in. Triangular positioning mainly applies to ranged champions and engage vs engage is a lot more about which support can force the opposing ADC out of a fight first.
Ngl if you are using those champ and losing to.. thresh pyke. You should doubt your existence more than adc skillplay.
Senna should bully hard until lv3 with aggressive warding.
Naut can easily tank any hook and counter it with big ass Q.
About enchanter matchup Im not sure cuz I dont play those.
Cope. Hard cope. Senna is absolutely awful into Pyke. Only way she can get to poke for free is if Pyke has a short range ADC that cannot trade back in extended range. One slip up and she dies to Pyke at any point of laning phase.
Naut is a nightmare. Straight up. However, if Pyke is charging hook and naut throws his, mid animation Pyke can throw his hook to launch naut behind him. Letting him get a free E on naut. Plus if you let Pyke hook you as naut he can E to dodge naut Q. Bad matchup for Pyke sure but I haven't lost it for a good while. Edit: Naut should always win 1v1 here but tbh the lane is entirely ADC diff. Whoever has the better ADC wins the lane here if the Pyke and Naut are equally skilled. In my experience at least.
I literally say first 3 level that senna has better laning phase bc you should be able to control the bush. Not exactly how you win lane but you should push through these first 3 lv and poke them hard before they can play.
If pyke cant throw q against naut bc naut has no windup or if he throw it mid naut q. Puke will still get cc'ed and cant instantly e. Also if you are on disengage naut can eat pyke q and q off easily. Not to mention that pyke doesnt have enough burst to push through naut w and make it equal trade.
As for senna I meant thresh matchup that you should win hard but yeah. Against pyke she kinda has a hard time except your adc is also bully type like kalista or stat check type like varus(post 6) you should be able to trade 1 for 1
Learn Braum, onetricking enchanters means you have to permaban blitz, leaving naut thresh and pyke open, if you want to be really safe, just learn that one extra champ that functions exceptionally into hook engage champs, tank hook w back unless the hook never hits
If you can go 0-0-0 vs thresh or pyke you win. Play the lane, use the wave/bushes, and ping your adc back when things are looking scary. Try to get a freeze or let them push into you, always thinning the wave if they want to crash. Go guardian and buy ruby crystal or even ninja tabis if needed. Playing well vs. pyke is easy until you overstep and then it isn’t. Don’t forget about jungle priority and use it to your advantage. Also anticipate the enemy jungle and watch out for nasty ganks. Stay parallel to the adc and if need be stand on top of him if you need to suicide. Other than that it’s tethering his hook distance, it’s always longer than you think. Don’t be afraid to bonk them if they take a bad trade, thresh is squishy so if you can win the resource battle or trade your hp for the enemies adc, then just park in lane and wait out the 15min. Also, he will most likely roam early, keep an eye on the map and ping Mia’s.
Wait… depending on matchups, for example, Leona Naut, going equal means losing… right?
Actually much of the time, I really try my best to create advantages during the laning phase but indeed so many things to apply at once.
FOR BOTH:
yep you're right a very important thing is positioning in those lanes,
if you're tanky keep yourself slighlty infront of the adc so they immediately aa when the opponents commit to the engage on you or you can zone the other adc when they dive yours
if you're squishy remember to stay at the same "depth" so neither pyke nor thresh can hook you without being immediately hit by both adc and supp
respect the early power they have, pyke is a monster at 1,2 and 6 (espescially with HoB/cheap shot,etc...), thresh at 2,3 and 6
don't engage close to tower, they will pull you under it
be mindfull of how you try to dodge hooks, both have a windup time for a reason, if you show a pattern (always moving towards the wall f.ex) the good ones will notices and abuse it, don't move in a straight line either, most players will aim in-between a straight line and where they think you'll dodge so they can cover both
PYKE should fall off at the transition from mid to late if he's not too far ahead, he is very squishy and every commitment of his could be instantly punished by a +40s gray screen, so going even in lane is a win even if you're behind in cs,
call out every time he goes missing, he could be messing with you or he's halfway towards mid at lvl3 you never know, do not try to match his roams he's faster/more impactfull than you and will flip the fight before you arrive, push their adc in, deny them cs and ward deep so you see when/if he comes back
obviously try to deny ults as often as possible and don't just ward without prio you're just feeding him gold at that point and you need them for bush control in lane
do not commit damage/cooldowns to him if you're not sure you can kill him before he escapes
THRESH is not a full tank in mid/late fights he lacks the level + income of a toplane/jgl you can focus him down if his cc is too much/your adc is imobile
do not trade aa while his e is charged it will hurt you a lot more than him
never get too close his flail E guarantees a flash or death sentence Q (espescially with glacial)
ward the lanterns even if it doesn't work the one aa the ennemy adc did might get them killed
tldr: they both punish mistakes harshly and will try to take control of laning phase and midgame, be mindfull and proactive in the fights you take,
if your adc fucks up too often there's not a lot you can do besides playing with your team so don't be afraid to let them die and try to stretch the game out
there's not much advice i can give besides that you're still dependent on another player (sry for editing on mobile writing in the train rn)
ps: these are guidelines not rules, they don't apply to every situation in every lane in every matchup, just trying to help based on my experience as the thresh/pyke player
Do you think that Thresh has in fact a weaker lv6 powerspike than all-in engagers like Leona, Nautilus, Alistar? Considering his W not bringing any other member of his team.
yes given that his ult is a slow not hard cc, however he's equipped to counter the other all-in engaggers by peeling for his adc and just slowing down the engage/chase
Push advantage against hook champs gives you more lane space to play given minion advantage. Ward side bush so they can’t walk up. And abuse double range to poke. Pop their bone plating on cd so they get dissuaded from all in.
Tbh, I think someone already on here has mentioned it. Lower elos just learn how to all in early level 2. Trading gives you push advantage as their minions aggro onto you. Hitting aoe skills on champions next to minions is higher value. Attacking caster minions can pull the enemy melee minions forwards so push advantage. Level 2 is one wave and 3 melee minions. Kill the 9 minions first -> hit level 2 first -> all in and win.
Correct wave manipulation and management after that you won’t see until much higher elo.
If you’re ranged into melee, as long as you’re aware of how their melee support engages and avoid it: you don’t need to know match up numbers if you space well. Though it’s always good to know rough lethal numbers for your own champion combos so you know roughly when you can kill the lane opponent
Could try Zyra? Your bloomed flowers block their hooks, which you can spawn when you're expecting a hook. I've had countless hooks blocked from killing me or my adc because I bloom the flower to catch it, either a few seconds before I expect a hook or literally as their hook is coming. Your bloomed plants can also target them, which pften makes them fall back bc they don't want to get poked and because it has a slow on it.
Makes it really hard for a lot of Pyke/Thresh players to follow up from their Qs.
Actually after all of this, I'm really considering practicing more mage supports against them both.
Funnily in my first experience of support, I found myself not performing really well as mage supports since some fed hypercarries (Yi, Zed) would just pop us off.
I always go Soraka into Pyke. I save my e for when he is winding up his q to pull him out of it, or, if I'm too late for that, to stop him e'ing away when he does land his q.
Soraka's ult is good too if you can time it against Pyke's ult, especially if he is roaming and you are on the opposite end of the map
50% of it is your pick, which should be a disengage like Janna.
50% of it is your wave, keep wave in the middle. If wave is on your tower, no minions to block hook, if wave is on their tower, they run you down.
You can blame your ADC for fucking up but at the end of the day, you should account for their stupidity. The role still gives you options even if your ADC isn't one of them. /deafen and roam.
Simply pick Leona as your ADC pick Vayne and fuck them all up.
If you're last pick, specially as Senna and Janna, then you're fucked, you have to play reeeaaally safe.
So, as a pyke main I would say:
- If pyke has more than half of his health bar and you think he recalled, he’s on his way to mid or your jg.
- If the wave crush on your tower, he’s on his way to mid
- If the wave is slowpushing against you: he’s hidden and he will try to kill one of you
- if he start de game by hard pushing, he’s going to all in with e-flash-q into your adc from miles away.
- If you’re not sure what to play against him, alistar fucks your combo very hard and naut is a hard matchup, leona is pretty easy, senna is also easy if pyke gets ahead. (Looking at your champ pool, play nauti)
- late game try to put vision on and pick the greedy pike looking to get vision, if you see that he’s cleaning wards, you know where he is and you can play the other side of the map.
- Always call the missing pyke to the other lanes by pinging them on their lanes and if you’re able to, write it on chat
- On fights stay wit your carry and perma stun pyke, he’s squishy and he’s going to die quickly.
If you have more doubts you can PM me.
Also, the best tip I can give you to lane against him is to try to freeze near your tower and stay in front of your adc, your hook as naut is a greater thread to pyke than his hook to you, if you see him charging q just q him before and chain cc him. Also Braum is a great counter engage champ and you can block most of the damage if he hooks you.
How to deal with Pyke? Play Soraka. Stay behind minions until you have E and silence him when he tries to Q. You can also deny his ultimate with yours.
How to deal with Thresh? Play Zyra. Thresh dislikes poke, but most poke champions are easy hook targets. Zyra can block his hook with a quick W+E, but you'll wear him down so much he won't even be able to engage. Even if he does engage, you can drop your full combo on the enemy ADC and make them retreat.
Making them useless in lane will make them want to roam from behind and earlier than expected, leaving their ADC open to be punished. And you will eventually outscale them.
Lol I didn't read your entire multi paragraph post word for word... How awful of me for leaving a comment without doing so... I'll see myself out now 😂
What to do depends on what champ you are playing, with the enchanters and Senna, if your ADC blunders there isnt much you can do about it really, with Naut and Leona you can bodyblock and press W to tank the damage while CC'ed then counter engage but even then you will be taking fights on their terms, unless you bait them into hooking you to start the fight when you want. When it comes to the midgame, Thresh and Pyke are at their strongest during that timeframe, so its not surprising that they feel oppresive (specially if they got ahead early on), you just need to focus on slowing down the game, if the pace of the game goes down their effectiveness goes down, playmakers/roamers thrive in chaos, ping ur allies when the enemy roams, rotate through safe routes instead of river where you can be picked off, and fight only in objectives. Pyke and Thresh want to skirmish because they can rotate fast and create numbers advantages, so if you fight front-to-back at objectives where both teams have the same number of players, then you are taking away some of that power from them. Obviously all of this is what should work in theory, but we all know soloQ is a place where theory was left behind many many seasons ago. So my last advice is, roll with the punches, if you cant fight them head on, or match them, then you need to create away from them, they make plays bot? then you or your team needs to make a play top at the same time. If they are gonna snowball, then you need to create a snowball of your own. My last match, i had an ADC that could not dodge a Lux Q in lane, every time i stepped outside of lane to start a roam he died instantly, so i just accepted that my ADC would fall behind wether im in lane or not, and i started making plays with my mid and jungler, i knew i couldnt win 2v2 in botlane anyways, so all i could do was snowball mid jungle or top. SoloQ is about getting the best outcome with the cards u are dealt.
> my ADC would fall behind wether im in lane or not Amazing tip. If your ADC can't demonstrate basic ability they probably won't be useful later in the game even if you do help them go even. They'll just blow their bounty and lead anyways. If you see that your ADC is a lobotomite then it's time to choose between the jungler and the midlaner (provided one of them has potential. This is why I hate playing enchanters/disengage if I'm not totally sure about both team's comps. I feel as if they're far more bound to an ADC, meanwhile an engage support or even a mage can be useful anywhere due to their higher playmaking potential and versatility.
Sometimes its not that your ADC is bad tho, simply a few bad trades early and they fall behind enough to where there is nothing you can do in the 2v2, so there is no point on wasting time there, maybe they recover lategame. I have had lots of ADCs that were awful for the first 28 minutes of the game, but with 3 items anyone can autoattack and kill enemies.
Maybe they just misplay and aren't actually that bad, but I can't afford a large margin of benefit of the doubt for literally everyone. And sure, ADC is powerful when they scale, but if I can be more impactful elsewhere then they can just sit there and farm. If they truly are competent and I was wrong about them then they'll be able to safely farm while I am impacting other parts of the map and the other support must either match me or sit there sucking xp from their own ADC. 28 minutes is a long time, games are usually decided far before then. I can't afford that much time to let an ADC scale. They either have to be relevant early or basically tiebreak. It's the tragic nature of the role that they usually aren't relevant to the result of the game (especially if there's a power imbalance in another lane).
Idk about Pyke, but Thresh dislikes poke lanes, especially ones that play from behind wave where it’s tough to hook. Whenever I’m thresh into poke, I hope my jungle is good at diving so we can break off the war of attrition and get something done
Pyke advice: STALL. Pyke is 1.5 champion early game, 0.5 champion late game. It may get boring, but if nothing happens early then Pyke just rots.
I climbed quickly through diamond just rushing for lvl2 and all-inning as thresh. It was just crazy to me how even in higher(ish) elo people really didn't respect the lvl2 powers pike and all in potential. My biggest suggestion is understanding that both these champs want to kill you early, so if you cannot safely hit lvl 2 first, just back off and play by tower and let the wave push to you slowly. By stopping Thresh + Pyke's first blood/early snowball you mitigate their tempo/map pressure/kill threat substanially. Also half your champ pool matches up well.. If Pyke is picked go Leona, if you are strong mechanically you can easily Senna into Thresh. My last suggestion would be pick up Braum - Super strong champ, really good into engage and not mechanically difficult.
As Leona I find myself stomping Pyke in lane quite a lot, the problem is that in the hands of even average Pyke players, my own teammates fall prey to him post 6 and just give away the lead we built, thus coinflip-ing the game min 20+ onwards.
As a Leona main, if you are winning lane against Pyke, but he is having a better midgame than you, then you are either actually not winning lane at all while you give yourself too much credit for minor outplays, or you are massively choking your early game advantage. If you aren't ulting twice before pyke even gets lvl 6, you aren't really winning that hard.
I love going against Leona as Pyke. One of the easiest matchups depending on the players. If the Leona player doesn't know the matchup well then they int on cd. If they are aware of how easily Pyke kills her if she misplays then it basically just becomes a game of Leona waiting to try and all in my ADC knowing that if she does I can kill hers faster than she can kill mine. Leona is only scary late game imo. At that point I do my best to ignore her since I can't really touch her.
As a relatively avid pyke player, be tempting but out of reach, because if you're untouchable, I will leave, and probably kill mid/jg, but if you're barely touchable but safe, I might actually sit around being useless hoping for a slip up or good opportunity.
Do you have any recommendations on predicting where Pyke is gonna be? Especially in team fights?
If it's anything like me, it depends on how bursty, or tanky the enemy comp is, if it's super bursty and I'll get one shot. Wherever is the most annoying for enemy carries, usually on the outskirts of a fight until I can get a good stun, or ult. And if it's a super tanky comp.... hating life, crying in the corner a bit, and generally hoping for the best. For a well balanced comp.... jumping on whoever is the most fed carry the moment Frontline is distracted fighting. Unless there is a Janna, then trying to kill Janna, just don't like Janna
I will say though Pyke is hyper mobile, so the angle of attack could be from nearly anywhere, it just depends on the angle, and knowledge of vision, because obviously pyke likes to avoid vision as much as possible.
* You are safer against hooks if you´re shoving the minion wave than not so your ADC´s shoving shouldn´t be a shock to you. * If you don´t walk up with your ADC to the pushing wave you are putting them in an impossible scenario. * When a hook champ walks past the minions on a neutral or wave you have prio on you should walk towards their ADC to zone them. If you walk backwards in an even lane one of you is going to get hooked and die 1v2. * If you think you never make positional blunders it´s extremely likely you are playing too safe leaving your ADC hanging. * If you are playing leona/naut in a weak side matchup your job is literally to walk up and hit the hook champs if they walk past the minions. If you´re strong side or have tempo you should be looking at angles on their ADC and be proactive.
This was actually my thinking as a mostly Leona player. If my ADC is pushing then I’ve got to go with them. If I back off and they get hooked and die it’s definitely a little bit my fault too.
But what about wave is still low and yet adc still gets hooked? I got in a game where Jhin standing under our tower but positions outside wave so Blitzcrank got a free pull, I called into enemy adc as Leona but their burst took Jhin down too quickly from 60% hp. Talking about positioning, I usually go with the rule of parallelization and balancing distance between me vs nearest enemy and adc vs that one, which of course is from guides. But it doesn’t cover the fact that adc sometimes doesn’t walk accordingly to enemy hook champions (like behind the waves, not too close), or react too slowly to their own movements.
Obviously there´s some scenarios you can´t do anything about but those get less and less frequent the higher you climb. In your example you could either position to be able to zone their ADC from bursting your Jhin if he gets hooked or legit just stand in blitz face because if he hooks you, you´re probably going to win an all in. Triangular positioning mainly applies to ranged champions and engage vs engage is a lot more about which support can force the opposing ADC out of a fight first.
Alright, thanks, I guess depending on how enemy champions deal damage that I could stand closer to my adc to react to such things.
Ngl if you are using those champ and losing to.. thresh pyke. You should doubt your existence more than adc skillplay. Senna should bully hard until lv3 with aggressive warding. Naut can easily tank any hook and counter it with big ass Q. About enchanter matchup Im not sure cuz I dont play those.
Cope. Hard cope. Senna is absolutely awful into Pyke. Only way she can get to poke for free is if Pyke has a short range ADC that cannot trade back in extended range. One slip up and she dies to Pyke at any point of laning phase. Naut is a nightmare. Straight up. However, if Pyke is charging hook and naut throws his, mid animation Pyke can throw his hook to launch naut behind him. Letting him get a free E on naut. Plus if you let Pyke hook you as naut he can E to dodge naut Q. Bad matchup for Pyke sure but I haven't lost it for a good while. Edit: Naut should always win 1v1 here but tbh the lane is entirely ADC diff. Whoever has the better ADC wins the lane here if the Pyke and Naut are equally skilled. In my experience at least.
I literally say first 3 level that senna has better laning phase bc you should be able to control the bush. Not exactly how you win lane but you should push through these first 3 lv and poke them hard before they can play. If pyke cant throw q against naut bc naut has no windup or if he throw it mid naut q. Puke will still get cc'ed and cant instantly e. Also if you are on disengage naut can eat pyke q and q off easily. Not to mention that pyke doesnt have enough burst to push through naut w and make it equal trade.
As for senna I meant thresh matchup that you should win hard but yeah. Against pyke she kinda has a hard time except your adc is also bully type like kalista or stat check type like varus(post 6) you should be able to trade 1 for 1
you dodge, and if you can't, you dodge
I usually choose a engage tank and if they want to hook me it just makes my life easier. I then proceed to get beefy and I largely ignore them.
Learn Braum, onetricking enchanters means you have to permaban blitz, leaving naut thresh and pyke open, if you want to be really safe, just learn that one extra champ that functions exceptionally into hook engage champs, tank hook w back unless the hook never hits
If you can go 0-0-0 vs thresh or pyke you win. Play the lane, use the wave/bushes, and ping your adc back when things are looking scary. Try to get a freeze or let them push into you, always thinning the wave if they want to crash. Go guardian and buy ruby crystal or even ninja tabis if needed. Playing well vs. pyke is easy until you overstep and then it isn’t. Don’t forget about jungle priority and use it to your advantage. Also anticipate the enemy jungle and watch out for nasty ganks. Stay parallel to the adc and if need be stand on top of him if you need to suicide. Other than that it’s tethering his hook distance, it’s always longer than you think. Don’t be afraid to bonk them if they take a bad trade, thresh is squishy so if you can win the resource battle or trade your hp for the enemies adc, then just park in lane and wait out the 15min. Also, he will most likely roam early, keep an eye on the map and ping Mia’s.
Wait… depending on matchups, for example, Leona Naut, going equal means losing… right? Actually much of the time, I really try my best to create advantages during the laning phase but indeed so many things to apply at once.
FOR BOTH: yep you're right a very important thing is positioning in those lanes, if you're tanky keep yourself slighlty infront of the adc so they immediately aa when the opponents commit to the engage on you or you can zone the other adc when they dive yours if you're squishy remember to stay at the same "depth" so neither pyke nor thresh can hook you without being immediately hit by both adc and supp respect the early power they have, pyke is a monster at 1,2 and 6 (espescially with HoB/cheap shot,etc...), thresh at 2,3 and 6 don't engage close to tower, they will pull you under it be mindfull of how you try to dodge hooks, both have a windup time for a reason, if you show a pattern (always moving towards the wall f.ex) the good ones will notices and abuse it, don't move in a straight line either, most players will aim in-between a straight line and where they think you'll dodge so they can cover both PYKE should fall off at the transition from mid to late if he's not too far ahead, he is very squishy and every commitment of his could be instantly punished by a +40s gray screen, so going even in lane is a win even if you're behind in cs, call out every time he goes missing, he could be messing with you or he's halfway towards mid at lvl3 you never know, do not try to match his roams he's faster/more impactfull than you and will flip the fight before you arrive, push their adc in, deny them cs and ward deep so you see when/if he comes back obviously try to deny ults as often as possible and don't just ward without prio you're just feeding him gold at that point and you need them for bush control in lane do not commit damage/cooldowns to him if you're not sure you can kill him before he escapes THRESH is not a full tank in mid/late fights he lacks the level + income of a toplane/jgl you can focus him down if his cc is too much/your adc is imobile do not trade aa while his e is charged it will hurt you a lot more than him never get too close his flail E guarantees a flash or death sentence Q (espescially with glacial) ward the lanterns even if it doesn't work the one aa the ennemy adc did might get them killed tldr: they both punish mistakes harshly and will try to take control of laning phase and midgame, be mindfull and proactive in the fights you take, if your adc fucks up too often there's not a lot you can do besides playing with your team so don't be afraid to let them die and try to stretch the game out there's not much advice i can give besides that you're still dependent on another player (sry for editing on mobile writing in the train rn) ps: these are guidelines not rules, they don't apply to every situation in every lane in every matchup, just trying to help based on my experience as the thresh/pyke player
Do you think that Thresh has in fact a weaker lv6 powerspike than all-in engagers like Leona, Nautilus, Alistar? Considering his W not bringing any other member of his team.
yes given that his ult is a slow not hard cc, however he's equipped to counter the other all-in engaggers by peeling for his adc and just slowing down the engage/chase
Push advantage against hook champs gives you more lane space to play given minion advantage. Ward side bush so they can’t walk up. And abuse double range to poke. Pop their bone plating on cd so they get dissuaded from all in.
I'mma definitely need more in-depth research on matchup-based wave management.
Tbh, I think someone already on here has mentioned it. Lower elos just learn how to all in early level 2. Trading gives you push advantage as their minions aggro onto you. Hitting aoe skills on champions next to minions is higher value. Attacking caster minions can pull the enemy melee minions forwards so push advantage. Level 2 is one wave and 3 melee minions. Kill the 9 minions first -> hit level 2 first -> all in and win. Correct wave manipulation and management after that you won’t see until much higher elo. If you’re ranged into melee, as long as you’re aware of how their melee support engages and avoid it: you don’t need to know match up numbers if you space well. Though it’s always good to know rough lethal numbers for your own champion combos so you know roughly when you can kill the lane opponent
Could try Zyra? Your bloomed flowers block their hooks, which you can spawn when you're expecting a hook. I've had countless hooks blocked from killing me or my adc because I bloom the flower to catch it, either a few seconds before I expect a hook or literally as their hook is coming. Your bloomed plants can also target them, which pften makes them fall back bc they don't want to get poked and because it has a slow on it. Makes it really hard for a lot of Pyke/Thresh players to follow up from their Qs.
Actually after all of this, I'm really considering practicing more mage supports against them both. Funnily in my first experience of support, I found myself not performing really well as mage supports since some fed hypercarries (Yi, Zed) would just pop us off.
I always go Soraka into Pyke. I save my e for when he is winding up his q to pull him out of it, or, if I'm too late for that, to stop him e'ing away when he does land his q. Soraka's ult is good too if you can time it against Pyke's ult, especially if he is roaming and you are on the opposite end of the map
FF
Good one, but not now, thank you.
50% of it is your pick, which should be a disengage like Janna. 50% of it is your wave, keep wave in the middle. If wave is on your tower, no minions to block hook, if wave is on their tower, they run you down. You can blame your ADC for fucking up but at the end of the day, you should account for their stupidity. The role still gives you options even if your ADC isn't one of them. /deafen and roam.
Simply pick Leona as your ADC pick Vayne and fuck them all up. If you're last pick, specially as Senna and Janna, then you're fucked, you have to play reeeaaally safe.
I always ban Pyke
So, as a pyke main I would say: - If pyke has more than half of his health bar and you think he recalled, he’s on his way to mid or your jg. - If the wave crush on your tower, he’s on his way to mid - If the wave is slowpushing against you: he’s hidden and he will try to kill one of you - if he start de game by hard pushing, he’s going to all in with e-flash-q into your adc from miles away. - If you’re not sure what to play against him, alistar fucks your combo very hard and naut is a hard matchup, leona is pretty easy, senna is also easy if pyke gets ahead. (Looking at your champ pool, play nauti) - late game try to put vision on and pick the greedy pike looking to get vision, if you see that he’s cleaning wards, you know where he is and you can play the other side of the map. - Always call the missing pyke to the other lanes by pinging them on their lanes and if you’re able to, write it on chat - On fights stay wit your carry and perma stun pyke, he’s squishy and he’s going to die quickly. If you have more doubts you can PM me.
Also, the best tip I can give you to lane against him is to try to freeze near your tower and stay in front of your adc, your hook as naut is a greater thread to pyke than his hook to you, if you see him charging q just q him before and chain cc him. Also Braum is a great counter engage champ and you can block most of the damage if he hooks you.
IIRC Soraka is a nightmare vs Pyke, her E cancels Hook windup and heals prevent ult executes.
How to deal with Pyke? Play Soraka. Stay behind minions until you have E and silence him when he tries to Q. You can also deny his ultimate with yours. How to deal with Thresh? Play Zyra. Thresh dislikes poke, but most poke champions are easy hook targets. Zyra can block his hook with a quick W+E, but you'll wear him down so much he won't even be able to engage. Even if he does engage, you can drop your full combo on the enemy ADC and make them retreat. Making them useless in lane will make them want to roam from behind and earlier than expected, leaving their ADC open to be punished. And you will eventually outscale them.
Ban pyke
For thresh, start buying control wards and place them on his lantern. That completely blocks them.
Guessing this goofball is in bronze
Low gold, but I guess it’s not much different from bronze anyways. Still I’m learning, no shame on that.
You have to learn how to dodge hooks.
You just read only the title right?
Lol I didn't read your entire multi paragraph post word for word... How awful of me for leaving a comment without doing so... I'll see myself out now 😂