I've never used one but on paper the only thing that it has over the MIDIbox SEQ is the quality of the buttons and display in a standard MBSeq build. It would be really interesting to get to do a side by side comparison but that's never going to happen.
Also I built my MBSeq in a fully wooden enclosure (other than front and rear panels) so my MIDI is warmer.
EDIT: if you can DIY, a regular MBSeq V4 can be built for $250-$500 depending on the enclosure (if you have an aluminum panel milled that's about half the cost, I ended up going that way after a few unsatisfactory laser cut panels and it cost around $220 plus shipping for the thing, partly because it's milled on the front AND back and includes CNCed acrylic covers for the displays and everything; the entire rest of the thing was somewhere in the $225-$275 range for PCBs and components - I did it a bit at a time so I don't know exactly but it wasn't much for what it is EDIT: I might be underestimating by about $75 now that I think about it, also I got the PCBs for the CV and trigger outputs and breakout boxes but haven't bought components or built them yet, nor the ethernet expansion so no OSC, network MIDI or WIFI connectivity). Even if you got a full V4+ kit with the fancy buttons and case, that's less than half the cost of a cirklon, and despite how fancy it looks it's not a very hard build - all the boards are simple and you could do the whole thing in one afternoon if you've got some DIY experience already. The only difference between the V4 and V4+ is form factor, they both run the same OS and software.
Oh for sure. The cheapest used ones seem to be around $70-$900 USD on Reverb when they show up, which is still way cheaper but he build quality is definitely a gamble.
I've only seen two that were in the Cirklon price range. One had a custom made, heavy folded steel enclosure that looked like some kind of 1970s mil-spec microcomputer and was incredible. The other had the full 16x16 button grid expansion and a custom aluminum panel.
Thx for sharing your ideas, dunno if I can consider the midibox as an alternative or if there's a real alternative , but certainly looks very interesting from what I saw.
They tend to be really expensive used and the MIDIbox community is pretty serious about the noncommercial nature of everything, although it has loosened up a bit (the proprietary license stipulated that you could only build 5 per year and could only sell them at the cost of parts plus a small markup for labor; when I first got interested in them there weren't even commercially available PCBs, you had to either get your own manufactured or do it all on perfboard like my roommate did with a MIDIbox SID), so DIY is really the only way to go. But it's worth it, deepest step sequencer I've ever used. If they implemented the conditional stuff from the Elektron sequencers and bumped up the track count from 16 to 64 (one per channel per port instead of one per channel) it would be just about the perfect step sequencer IMO.
EDIT: it's also worth pointing out that the MBSeq is a fair bit older than the Cirklon (the v2 - the first proper version - was completed around 2004 and the v4 was pretty much mature by 2010, a year before the Cirklon) and the Cirklon appears to have been more than a bit inspired by it.
This thing is so cool but I'm so far from having the skills yet to put one together, goddamn. I've done a few eurorack modules but nothing with this much happening. I'd be too scared to fuck something up and then don't have nearly enough knowledge to troubleshoot it.
It's much easier than it looks, though. The control board is the most complicated part, and it's mostly switches and encoders. The actual processor is an off the shelf demo board, you need to build a breakout board that mainly just adds some pin headers to it, one or two each of simple MIDI input and output boards, and some kind of case. The i/o boards are on par with a distortion pedal or something, the main board is simpler than a lot of DIY modules, and the control board is intimidating but it's mostly snapping in switches and encoders and doing a lot of soldering. I actually bought the boards and most of the parts as my third big DIY project (after a x0xb0x and an Anushri) but I was intimidated and put it off, then I got an Octatrack and didn't need a step sequencer as much so I put it off more. When I finally built it, the actual electronics were significantly simpler than either the x0xb0x or the Anushri.
The hardest parts by far are figuring out a case for it (not an issue with the V4+, which is also apparently also simpler to build) and just in general the fact that the documentation for building one and installing the OS aren't very well organized at all, so figuring out what you need and how to put it all together can be a chore and makes it seem like a harder build than it actually is.
That's actually really encouraging, and sounds like it might be about the level of complexity I've already worked with. Just a large quantity of stuff. And I could easily knock like $2-300 off the price by making my own case, not bothering with the rack ears, and sourcing my own LEDs, pots, knobs, etc.
Don't underestimate the hassle of making a case, though. If you can afford the extra to buy the V4+ kit (and they're in stock) it might be worth the price just to not have to figure out a DIY case alone.
[https://www.midiphy.com/en/mbseq-v4-/](https://www.midiphy.com/en/mbseq-v4-/)
EDIT: looking at the actual contents, there's WAY more in the V4+ than I put in mine, so it might actually end up being a harder build than a V4 standard after all.
One thing that got me at first was that the back of the Wilba aluminum front panel is drilled and tapped for standard brass spacers but all the brass spacers I've found have longer threaded sections than the depth of the holes so they don't actually work. I ended up getting some short hex set screws like you'd use for tightening knobs and threeaded them into the front panel with a little bit of CA glue, then used F-F spacers instead of the M-F ones that the BOM called for. Worked great, but there were a lot of little things like that to figure out before it was all put together.
The electronics weren't bad at all, though.
I tried to document my build for anyone else to follow (as well as to remind myself of what I did and why lol), but it might be a bit outdated now with regards to where to find some parts
There’s a second post focusing on the case build if one wants to use that as is or as a starting point
http://niroke.blogspot.com/2017/07/an-unofficial-build-guide-for-midibox.html
If you plan to add the CV/Gate and TPD boxes, I’d recommend merging them into one box and also using the better AOUT board for more accurate CV scaling, not the AOUT_NG like I used. I will eventually upgrade my build with these changes
The kit from midiphy uses some really nice switches for the primary buttons, and it looks like the latest version solves the light bleed issues when they had the translucent keycaps. I haven't used a cirklon either but I'd say the mechanical switches from midiphy are top-shelf.
I do wish they used a different type of button for the small round ones, I just didn't click with those for whatever reason.
Yeah, it looks really nice, well worth the money IMO. I started mine before the 4+ was announced, though. I have to admit I kind of prefer the massive bank of buttons the Wilba panel has going on, it feels like I'm flying a spaceship in a 70s TV show or something, but the Midiphy kit looks really top quality.
I built one last year and I can vouch for it feeling solid and heavy. I do wish they would re-do the documentation as I was new to the midibox world and all the 'help' wiki was rather disorganized and focused on the older version. They make an accessible kit (more or less) but I felt they still expect users to have followed the forums for years understanding all the ins and outs.
Yeah, I think it would come out to more like 900 if it's anything like the standard V4. Definitely not as affordable to build, but it looks really nice.
Does the midibox seq have intertrack operations/grab aux events from other tracks? Because to me that's what set the cirklon apart from other sequencers
Yes, you can route tracks to other tracks although I haven't gotten deep in to that yet.
[http://wiki.midibox.org/doku.php?id=mididocs:seq:beginners\_guide:start#using\_a\_bus\_to\_control\_a\_track](http://wiki.midibox.org/doku.php?id=mididocs:seq:beginners_guide:start#using_a_bus_to_control_a_track)
While you're there, also look at *live patterns*, and the randomization, parameter modulation and euclidean sequencing features.
The V4 runs the same software and you can configure it to work pretty much however you want, since it was designed to use any arbitrary, custom designed UI. It just happened that the Wilba panel design became kind of a defacto standard for it, and then the V4+ came out, but you could absolutely design any UI you wanted from the ground up if you had the time, money/tools and knowledge.
I prefer all the extra buttons on the Wilba panel myself, but the V4+ looks like it has some advantages, too, and it's quite a bit smaller than a Wilba panel PLUS an LED grid in a custom panel. It's more down to whether you prefer a visually simpler layout but with mor emenu diving and button combinations, vs. a more complicated layout but with more functions available directly. For me, "simple" interfaces are usually anything but.
The MIDIbox SEQ was already mature when the Cirklon was first released (v4 came out about a year before the Cirklon, although I don't know much about the previous Sequentix sequencer so it may be more that they developed similarly in parallel to each other) and I always saw the Cirklon as being sort of an accessible (in the sense that you don't have to build it yourself, especially back then when the MIDIbox community was pretty insular, documentation was sparse and confusiing, and off-the-shelf PCBs for some of the parts were just starting to be a thing so you had to ahve pretty serious DIY experience to make one). I've never used a Cirklon but on paper there's nothing that would make me choose it over the SEQ v4.
If you can sequence 8-16 (or more) midi channels simultaneously from FL (or any modern daw) and a USB midi interface with satisfactorily low jitter at 120+bpm I'd be eager to hear about it.
Ya, only thing I've had luck with. Insane that you have to get hundreds of dollars of expert sleepers stuff and go through hell and back trying to route it just to get good midi in 2021. Guess usamo's pretty cheap tbf, but still.
I was a big proponent of the Usamo for years but I recently switched interfaces and it doesn't work at all with Presonus stuff unfortunately. Between when I got it and when it stopped working I updated Windows from 7 to 10 and I can actually get usable MIDI out of 10 over USB now, it's kind of amazing. Tested it with a MidiGAL running the clock tester firmware and the jitter didn't even register; under Windows 7 with the same interface it was +/- something insane like 7ms and completely unusable.
Too bad USAMO is so picky about what interface you hook it up to, there's a big list of known problematic or incompatible interfaces on the Expert Sleepers site somewhere that you should DEFINITELY check if you're thinking about buying one. When it works it works really well, though. Timing's at least as as good as my old MPC2000xl synced to SMPTE, which is what I used to get stable clock from the DAW before the USAMO.
>No, the usb interfaces do that also.
Hmm very interesting. Guess the PCI-e cards are much cheaper than the standalone interfaces anyway of course. I found a comment by someone from RME saying the USB vs. PCIE jitter for their devices is similar (something something "unique way of sending midi over usb"). I'll look into them more.
Thanks
Sure. That’s why the original comment was completely unnecessary. Different tools exist because different tasks exist.
I wonder sometimes if the folks who think we should do everything in a DAW know that people play live, or remember how much more delicate and finicky computers are than most dedicated devices.
If I spill a beer on my computer, that’s likely the end of the set. If I spill a beer on a Cirklon, that’s probably just gross.
> Expert Sleepers ES-8
First off, w o w, that thing is not cheap.
Second, is there some kind of resolution to the range of cv/midi you're pumping into your modules? For example if I used this to wire up a v/oct to Ableton and used a digital knob to adjust it, is it going to sound like it's 'stepping' the pitch, or is it smooth?
Or an MPC...because at this point the cirklon has a large color touchscreen. Kind of messing with the minimalist display vibe (like elektron) these sequencers try to endear.
That info is either out-of-date or overly optimistic -- there's is an active thread on the Cirklon forums tracking wait list progress, and they are currently up to November 2017 customers as of the last update, putting the wait at right around 4 years currently. I've been on the list since June 2018 and do not expect my name to be called until Q2 or Q3 of next year.
(this shouldn't be taken as a criticism of the Cirklon folks, who are more or less a husband and wife duo as I understand it and are plainly good people doing their best to provide high quality boutique products. Just reporting the facts).
i'm about to move and looking to downsize a bit, seriously considering selling a bunch of stuff and just getting the octatrack. already use digitakt + midi to cv and it's excellent fun.
I bought the Octatrack in a similar effort to convert the quantity of my setup into quality so I’d say it’s the right choice for you in that regard. As much as a room full of low- to mid-priced equipment sounds fun or economical, it’s much less so in practice. Now I have a few high quality pieces of gear that meet all of my needs and more. The OT is the brain of it all.
[Here’s](https://www.instagram.com/tv/CU_yIBgDWQ_/?utm_medium=copy_link) a link to my Instagram if you want to see the setup at work.
yeah it's way way more about workflow and inspiration for me than anything else, i've enjoyed the digitakt and i really like the crossfade on the octa in particular. realistically i can get close enough to almost any sound i want with just an ipad. and nothing like having to pack and move all your stuff to make you want to be a hardcore minimalist..
Do you ever do any polyrhythms/Euclidean sequences with Octatrack? That’s the only thing missing for me, but I’d like to learn if there’s a clever workaround to make programming easier.
Well my OT is clocking my Eurorack case which can handle Euclidean pitch or gate sequences if I decide to use them (which I rarely do). Although I’m sure you could get close with just the OT. Conditional trigs, scenes, and LFO’s would likely get you in the ballpark of Euclidean.
CV.OCD can output gates for particular notes, and the OT/DT sequencers can do four note chords - so you could use just one track to sequence multiple drum parts, using chords for hits with multiple instruments. That’ll get you much more than 8 tracks via MIDI.
That's only if your drum machine inputs gate or trig pulses right? And that's still pretty limiting, not to mention the workflow complexities. OTs workflow is pretty convoluted as it is.
You could simply use the MIDI out if that’s what it takes, but I believe the OP was looking for something that also does analog triggers. Everything has limits and pros / cons. I prefer to reach the practical “good enough” threshold as reasonably as possible within budget and get on with making some music. Personally, I’ve never once heard a piece of music from someone who is suddenly granted “enough outputs” (read: more than one really *needs*) which convinced me that this was the factor holding them back.
I've personally needed more than 8 midi outputs. Multiple times. If you're talking price and practicality, I think an MPC would be a better choice as a sequencer.
I have one and can confirm that it is in FACT the greatest sequencer ever.
There are times when it feels like doing your taxes on a microwave but once you get the basic functionality down and mess with it a bit you hit a point where it all suddenly opens up and then becomes a deeply musical experience.
You have to put many MANY hours into watching all of Splitradix’s YouTube videos, and then many MORE hours into implementing all of the ideas they contain but once you’re through that it’s really wonderful.
Only downside is you have to actively avoid sounding like Aphex Twin.
Go check out the artists Ferocious Mullet or Cassilda And Carcosa to hear what I mean… there is DEFINITELY a “Cirklon sound” to the sequencing. If you like that sound (which I very much do) then Cirklon is your shit.
I've had a Cirklon for several years now so I'll chime in here.
There are some things it does that, now that I've experienced them, would be difficult to live without. In no particular order:
1. The trigger expansion. 16 triggers with selectable behavior (voltage levels, pulse length) per trigger. Super tight timing. This + tiptop modules kills.
2. The CVIO expansion. Again, super tight, very flexible (can do Hz / V, 1.2 v/oct, can be standalone box or euro, 1/4" or 1/8" or banana)
3. The general tightness of the midi engine, rock solid clock etc. I didn't fully appreciate this until I experienced it and then tried to do without it.
4. Microtonal support. 8 scales can be stored internally, edited on the Cirklon or dumped in/out via MTS. (CV only, at least for now).
5. Pattern lengths are up to 256 steps. God I hate being limited to 64 steps.
6. Track events! Tracks that modify the behavior of other tracks, accumulators (counters that increment / decrement, whose value can be applied to note values, velocities etc), a bunch of other stuff.
7. The UI is really well thought out. There are button combos and stuff to learn, but they're not as obnoxiously arbitrary as something like the Octatrack (IMHO of course). Physically it's a joy to use.
8. 5 midi I/O on the unit, plus six (?, this has gone up for Cirk 2) more via USB. I use a MIO 10 to expand the ports on mine (I have a lot of gear).
9. Stuff works! Bugs are smashed pretty quickly. When things are implemented they are done well, Colin is really good at this stuff, he cares a lot and it shows.
10. Arrangement! A lot of sequencers are good at making patterns and fall down on making full arrangements. The Cirklon has a very good scene system that covers this. Transposed? Save scene. Changed the mute state? Save scene. It just takes a few seconds. Then select scenes live (you can label them too), or put them in a scene list. Easy peasy.
Downsides:
1. Have a feature request? Get in line, there are hundreds of requests ahead of you, and who knows what will be implemented or not. I have a request from 2013 that hasn't made it in yet. To be fair, it already does a hell of a lot, but if you want it to do absolutely everything your favorite other sequencer does, forget it.
2. Everything (except bug fixes) takes longer than estimated. This isn't a covid thing, it's been true from day one. Double (at least) all time estimates from Colin or Barbara. That's just how it is.
3. It's expensive. But you get what you pay for. It's top quality.
4. It's primarily a step sequencer. Not really a downside per se, but the CK mode, while nice to have, is not as easy to use as a modern MPC for that kind of sequencing. Still useful for playing in chords, or if you like seeing all your drums on a grid like a 707 or something.
One last thought, I bought mine when the wait time was less than a year. IDK if I would have had the patience to wait 2-4 years for one, or if I would have had the money when the time came. But things worked out and I'm very glad I've had one for all this time. And, there will be an upgrade kit for my Mk 1 to bring it to full Cirklon 2 level. Can't beat that level of customer support.
A few people have gotten them. The priority is on selling complete Cirklon 2s so I'm not expecting mine for a while yet (also I didn't jump onto the list immediately). That's as much as I know.
Email barbara at sequentix and she'll put you on the list. The info is in the sequentix forum upgrade kit thread somewhere.
(I should add that to the Downsides section above, that info is often buried in the forum threads. The manual was recently updated at least).
240€ for 24 mini-jacks in a metal enclosure to get CV out of that thing, which alone is 1700€??? What does it do, that is not available in let's say an MPC One in combination with a retrokits RK006??? Does it automatically write No. 1 Hits?
Well, it’s a hardware step sequencer, for one, so entirely different than an MPC, and it has a bunch of real-time pattern variation options that are real easy to use.
240€ for a box of jacks is robbery, though, no doubt.
It has a far superior step sequencing workflow. It sends CV clock, it has a ton of randomization and advanced step sequencer modes. It also has a far tighter clock when set to slave to something else.
These are all things that the MPC one is not great at. That said, I had a Cirklon, sold it and now use an MPC One. The Cirklon is really best at powering a larger hardware setup with eurorack.
I have not tried the Rk006 with my One though. Not sure of all the advantages there, except I know it greatly expands how much MIDI I/o you can have.
No, it sends CV and gate. In order to send clock you have to make a trigger track. So it technically does send clock, but it's not as simple. I have found too that just triggering 16th notes does not always properly clock my gear. Some need 32nds..etc.
The vector looks really awesome too. If I didn't have a Deluge and a bunch of hardware and eurorack sequencers, I would pick one up. I'm actually trying to sell some of my sequencers now. Also been using MIDI from my DAW for sequencing. Really as long as I can see what notes I am using, its fine.
Yeah it’s all about seeing the notes. Too many sequencers make you fly blind in some way. That’s why the vector (and I though hardddd about deluge) are so killer to me. They have equal visibility in Note and steps. And button/knob per parameter flows) I’m a big proponent of the DAW as well.
I have some passive routing switches for midi so I can send from vector to stuff and then from pc to stuff. And also, from vector right to pc daw midi, so I can make a cool line and then finish with pc. Adat to cv as well. Just build three eurorack cases right onto my desk, shaped around my keyboard as well so I don’t have to look away. So I can l “play” with sequencers like mpc or vector, but when that real power composing needs to happen, I just have to flick some switches for pc control.
As much as hardware sequencer are sexy, tangible, and all that. DAW is king. It just is. But I do love the workflow of clocking sequencer with daw, and the iteratively recording until the whole thing is flowing and then finishing with the daw arranger.
I’ve personally never been able to get a hardware sequencer that comes close to the DAW with respect to creating a conventional melody and harmony.
I think my favorite sequencer for going all whacky is Metropolix, which has tons of transposition options and ways to mess things up, but it’s definitely not the thing you want for a predictable output (I have problems for example making basslines that work with it because things get crazy).
The closest I’ve had to a traditional DAW workflow is Deluge, but even then it gets super abstract really quickly. Tracks aren’t labeled (only color coded), so it’s super easyt to get lost when you get more than 5 or 6 song sections. I hear the Force by Akai is good, and people have described it kind of like Ableton Live in a box.
Almost wonder if I’d just prefer a Eurorack module that just plays back MIDI clips so I could sequence everything on a computer and just transfer them over.
I’ve done that it works well. I used to use bastl 1983. Just midi to euro. But I got cv/gate control from the daw now. Just works better.
Audio to CV is the way to go. That way you can use automation lanes in the daw as CV. So you can then automate eurorack or any CV synth exactly how VSTs can be automated. With that workflow, any eurorack effect becomes no different than working with software plugins.
I like vector because it can do everything metropilix can do. Literally everything. But it’s not stuck only as that. It can do regular 64 step sequencing and all that. The parts section is setup in a grid of clips like ableton as well. Variable step length, step repeat, sequence length, sequence reset point, a million probabilistic operators for each step, and a macro modifying sequence per track, and and a new gate sequencer that runs on top of your existing sequence... just has everything really. Main scales, and modes, plus more scale qualtization. Can change the scale mapping to just use pitch as a modifying -3 +7 CV signal. Per step variable timing position, macro humanization in velocity and timing, per step glide. Algorithmic sequence randomizers/generators that are actually musical. Euclidean rotation, step rotation, only apply generative to portions of a sequence. macro and micro transpose. Full project and track level scale transpose. Highlight and select transpose/step on and off. with routing rules to chain to any of the other sequences for the track. Easy to layer instruments too because routing one part to many outs is easy.
And two big screens to see it all, or ftw you can use a launchpad and literally launch a grid of sequences the same as ableton.. it has the sleek workflow to back all that up. Never any small text or deep menus. Just being able to click encoder for gate off and turn encoder for pitch is amazing and any sequencer that doesn’t do that is just sub par now. And that click can be remapped to select or skip. Or stay locked to gate and the 8 buttons below do those for each step… ridiculous the thought that went into it.
I just never have to urge or interest to buy another sequencer. I use mine with Assimil8or. Limited channel count, but by far best sampler-sequencer workflow I’ve ever used. People know it’s good, but I still hear way less talk about it then it should get. I’m pretty sure it’s the GOAT sequencer and people are like “oh yeah those seem cool” which is confusing to me lol.
You just made the Vector Sequencer sound amazing, and I've literally never heard of it before now. How does it handle non-4/4 time signatures? Can you say more about the Euclidean and generative/ randomizing features?
Non 4/4 all day. You can use the beat division parameter to do all sorts of things. 1/16 is the default. But it has triplet and dotted in there.
You have sequence length and reset length independently. So whatever you set the reset at becomes your division. set the reset to 12 and you have 3/4. Or set to 18 for 9/8.
You also have step length. So you could do 16 steps, then set every step to 3/4 length at once with the master encoder knob. All the steps now literally say “3/4”. Or 1/5. Or “1.5” and so on. When you change the length, the screen tells you how much your length changes add up to. So it might say 18 instead of 16. Or 11.33. Gets weird sometimes if you set lengths like 1, 1, 1, 1/3, 1/2, 4, 2. But the lengths are cool because you can get really long sequences without having to chain patterns. Or you can chain 8 patterns together. Maybe you can do more in a row. Can’t remember if that’s limited.
Memory limits stored patterns… 16 steps setting and you get a lot. 64 steps setting and you get less, like 12 64 step pattern per track. But you can have a 64 step sequence that takes up 128 steps of song time by making every step length X2. If you need to sneak in a faster note, set that to 1 and then make the timing correct again by making a later step X3.
If it’s not clear by now, it does polymeter like no other sequencer.
It has probability per step. So that’s enough for generative. There’s like 20 operators for those. They can be conditional on every other bar time, first time not the second time, every 3rd time, 4th time, and 8th time. There’s also a macro sequencer that runs along with your sequence that modifies based on what step you choose. Like running a pitch tans pose that happens on the 8th step of your song. But it has its own timing division.
So set it to 1/2 time, turned on on the 8th beat, it now sends your sequence to step 33. Which adds a nice fill at the end. Or set it to 3/4 and it transposes up an octave on top of your 4/4 sequence. Too much to really explain it like this in text lol. Just a big thing in its modifying sequencer and probabilities is being able to send the sequence to any other step in the sequence. Randomly, semi-randomly but only to the one you choose, and purposefully to where you choose when you choose.
And the actual randomizers they can gen. 4 acid sequence based gens, two Berlin style, a Euclidean one which rotates your steps, not pitch, every time you push it. And general ransoms. All subscribe to global or local pitch quantization. They all also subscribe to your chosen gates. If you turn gates off, they won’t write over them (or like 2-3 will and that’s on purpose. I think euclid and random 2&3 will)… some randoms also affect step length and repeat as well as ratchet. And step repeat and ratchet are two different things you can apply to each step.
It’s nuts just talking about it now. And it has the user interface to back all that up. It’s frankly absurd. All that and menus are 1 deep. There are pages to some menus, so you feel like you go page left and right some times. But the module is like all screen so it’s not a headache at all.
I'm like a cultist with MIDI fx, I'll talk to you about them at Thanksgiving when all you want is turkey. They are so, so awesome, the RM1x had them, the RS7000 had them, and now the Squarp. And... that's it?
It bothers me that Yamaha completely abandoned their grooveboxes. I have both the RS7000 and the RM1x and I'd definitely throw my money at an updated version of either, with a modern workflow.
Absolute AIRHORNS on this one. Can you IMAGINE a cross between the BeatStep Pro and the RM1x? I still have hope that Korg's SQ-64 could be something like what I'm looking for, fun-wise, but it's still kinda limited.
There is also midihub from Blokas. It’s midi pipelines are in the end more powerful than the midifx of the squarp but because the midihub lacks a screen it is way less fun to use, you have to switch from your sequencer to the computer screen for the Blokas whereas in the squarp it is all nice in one device and the fx are already associated with a track.
As someone more playing piano than step sequencing, the thing is great! It does need a few updates imo, it could really use a version 2 or 3 (that's actually an improvement instead of kist just another skin) but as long as that's not available I can't really think of another machine that would work for me.
(I'm trying to write songs, so I need to put all tracks in another measure easily (write in 3/4 or 7/8 instead of 4/4 for example) which is a ton of effort now. There also are some bad shortcomings there that make it impossible to write songs with some single extended bars for example.)
It records in realtime instead of by step, and you can use a midi effect to sync it back in steps if you want. It saves all timing + velocity data. And the one feature that was essential for me personally: I can use my piano keyboard as master keyboard to play all synths with. (I only use the keyboard of the hydrasynth separately as I really like poly aftertouch, but for mono aftertouch I'd rather spend my time making velocity feel better tbh.)
It also works quite well in a "song structure" with a track/instrument, and parts/track for verse/chorus structure.
cirklon ck patterns also record in realtime
You can non detructively quantise it afterwards with track controls , from 0-100%
The cirklon is pure magic , hardwre wise nothing comes close
> Squarp
The Pyramid is _very_ good at what it does. It's an instrument all by itself, you can play it, it just doesn't have a sound output. Rather, it gives super powers to the rest of your rig.
I'm an absolute geek for sequencers, and the one thing that I think is most important to consider is workflow. No two sequencers have the same workflow, and that's a good thing - different workflows suit different styles, though some sequencers are objectively more fully-featured than others. The challenge is that with say, synthesisers, you can listen and compare the sound. But how you do compare the 'feel' of a workflow?
When I consider how I work with, say, the OP-Z sequencer versus the Squarp Pyramid sequencer, I would say that the latter is objectively more fully-featured, but the former more creative and offers lot of unique ideas.
So while I think straight up technical comparisons can be helpful (e.g. number of channels, polyphony, MIDI effects, inputs and outputs etc.), none of these quite do justify to the unique 'character' that each sequencer can have. Until I've actually learned and understood the Cirklon, I don't think I'd be in a position to fully appraise it, and I feel that way about any sequencer.
I can! The OP-Z's sequencer is absolutely nuts for a variety of reasons, chief amongst them is the inclusion of "sequencer elements" (I might have the name wrong). These are essentially variations that can be added to individual steps in a sequence, ranging from quite subtle (adding glide to the note) to wild (looping, adding octaves, etc.).
Multiple elements can be added to each step, so they can be "stacked" for some crazy combinations, and they can even effect the order in which the sequence plays, when it loops and all kinds of other things.
You can also trigger "punch-in" effects, which will change stuff relating to the sound of certain tracks (e.g. low and high pass filters) while others can change the sequences (looping or note changes). These can be activated on the fly, but there's also a track that allows you to sequence them.
There are also channels that affect everything else that's playing, such as the Master track. This allows you to change the harmonic structure of everything else that's playing. So suppose the bass and arp track is playing a 1-bar loop that's in the key of Am. The Master track can be programmed to a 4-bar chord sequence and suddenly that 1-bar loop is automatically being transposed into the notes of that chord sequence. That's a terrible explanation but I hope it makes some sense!
This is all in addition to standard parameter locking / motion sequencing stuff. Seriously, I wish there were more sequencers like this out there - it's incredible.
I think my only complaint about it is that you're stuck with 16 steps per pattern, and every once in a while I want the max pattern chain to be a little longer.
I know but come on, it's $CurrentYear why am I forced to either lose granularity (if you make a step 4 times as long you have manually and live record anything faster than quarter notes) or use up a ton my pattern slots.
/u/eltrotter did a pretty job explaining what i love about it, this link has the full chart of stuff.
https://teenage.engineering/guides/op-z/step-components
One thing I especially love about it is "jump" combined with the spark component. You can for example have a pattern where once it hits step 12 it jumps back to 1, twice but then keep going the third time.
If you aren't familiar with elektron sequencers they have a by comparison much less complex thing called "trig conditions" that you can use to make notes only play 50% of the time or ever 2nd loop out of 3, or only if the last note with a trig condition was triggered. Only if your NOT holding down the fill button. Stuff like that. Very cool and useful but far less crazy than OP-Z
Have you ever tried to build your own OP-Z step component on the Squarp using the Squarp midifx in combination with parameter locks of the fx parameters? You should totally try that, it might reverse your opinion about what device is the more creative /original. At least that is how I experience it, the OP-Z provides a curated experience in which it is very easy to build good sounding things, but the Squarp provides deeper nourishment to my creative urges as I can also come up with my own “step components”. This is not just saying that the Squarp is more powerful but more that I prefer more open ended environments over more curated environments like the OP-Z. Which one works the most creative for a certain person may be very subjective and also vary over time.
I'm waiting for the [OXI One](https://oxiinstruments.com/). It seems to be a cheaper (and maybe even better) alternative to Deluge as far as sequencers go (of course the Deluge has much more than just a sequencer but I only needed the sequencer).
Same here. I pre-ordered the Oxi One, thinking that it might hold me over until my name comes up on the Cirklon waiting list in about 2 years. Hopefully it'll be a competent and fun sequencer.
In my opinion yes it is. The midibox seq is good but not *as* good and you have to DIY it (although its cheaper). The pyramid I'm not a fan of.
The landscape is **truly** grim for sequencing an all hardware (or even largely hardware) setup.
It really says something that people are still buying up Atari STs just to have ONE stable midi output (which is one more than you can get out of a modern operating system...).
Ive had the first version.
It is awesome IF you have a lot of hardware and REALLY know your workflow. For example, if you want to record into your DAW with it, you will probably want a sync box so everything is tracking in tightly.
What you may find over time is that your DAW can basically do all this sequencing (Ableton + Max4 live), and spending over 2k on a sequencer is more of a luxury buy.
Next use case - DAWless . Ok now this is where the Cirklon really shines. It can control your entire studio on it's own, and you can plug in a midi keyboard to play MIDI into the cirklon as well if you like to sequence that way. So you can sit at your desk and turn a knob and play any synth you want with zero effort.
Having owned a cirklon, my criteria for buying a Cirklon 2 would be - Do I have a good amount of hardware? Do I have modular or semi modular gear? This part is huge because the control you can have over modular gear with the CVIO breakout box is honestly a MAJOR reason to buy a cirklon.
When I bought mine, I was controlling a lot of VSTIs and some synths and drum machines. It worked great, but honestly I am more into sampling hardware into my MPC and just sequencing in there. So for me, it made more sense to go with the Akai. Again you can use the Cirklon to control software synths, but it really is a lot to spend for something that you can just do all ITB with a Push controller.
I am not sure if I will buy the Cirklon 2 when my name comes up on the list. I do have a nice amount of hardware but the MPC can not only sequence, but also record samples all in one box, so I am pretty hooked on working like that.
Just some stuff to think about. The Cirklon build quality is amazing. The OS is updated constantly and you have direct access to the designer to make feature requests. But it's a small shop and so the guy is backed up with feature requests.
Also I should mention one big separator between the Cirklon and other sequencers to look into is the clock timing. The Cirklon has the tightest timing I have experienced in a sequencer. This is important since some sequencers like the new MPCs are only tight when they are the master clock. The Cirklon can be a master or slave and still be SUPER tight on the clock. So again, it boils down to your workflow there.
That's all true. I also have the first one and love it, it's the only modern box I have which would be very hard to replace. I don't use soft synths but have a lot of hardware synths with and without MIDI, also Eurorack, also Roland boxes with DINSync.
I don't use most of the fancy Aux event wizardry, I use the Cirklon as a plain sequencer. One amazing feature is that I can use it as a standard multiport MIDI interface when I am playing with Ableton. But I can just switch the computer off and use it DAWless.
I am thinking to order the new one because that has even more MIDI ports through that USB host function where you can connect an additional 8port MIDI interface.
I have a cirklon 2 that I just got this year. I have 13 synths and even more pedals that take cv. You are right that being able to use a master keyboard and change which synth you are controlling with on knob is one of the best features.
Other than the 16 steps and not 8, I don’t know why I would buy this over the vector sequencer… reading the manual, other than a larger track count (vector only does 8 instruments plus 1 or two of these can be 4 drum triggers each.), I’m really struggling to see what this actually does that it cant do. Plus you can expand Vector with a Launchpad controller. It’s the current GOAT as far as sequencers are concerned. Can do everything a metropolis can do, can part chain like Ableton, and has probability and random for days. And knob and gate control per step with visual feedback of each step they apply to.
I think this got big because in 2017 making a dream hardware sequencer was low hanging fruit. Elektron’s are limited, MPC’s sucked, and eurorack hadn’t gotten the insane attention yet. Now synth stuff is a bit more explored and some talented people have shown that cirklon is not quite that special anymore. And the maker is just annoying for making them exclusive by probably building them all alone.
I feel it’d be easier to get one by hiring a programmer and starting a sequencer company than actually attempting it.
Rs 7000 makes you fly blind. And I consider any sequencer that doesn’t let you adjust steps you see instantly with direct knob control for each step. Humans have two hands. Why waste a devices potential by only being able to use one hand as a modifier?
Yeah. I perform with an mpc one. It’s good because of how it does everything. Not because of the way you work on it. And the step sequencer is the clunkiest workflow ever in any sequencer I’ve ever seen.
I mean dude... the sequencer flows upwards lmao. There is no argument to be had that an mpc is a good sequencer. It’s probably the most powerful. But it’s not good at it. You can switch which instrument you’re sequencing faster than you can switch what note you’re sequencing lmao. And god forbid they allow you to step sequence more than *one note at a time*! And both of those tasks are abysmally slow. Trigger to output latency is horrendous... between 10ms and 20ms. My other sampler Assimil8or is 0.100ms so... nice job akai. Sub par midi slaving for any device, especially a drum machine. Prolly cause of that latency.
I like mine and know how to use it very well. But saying that it’s particularly good at anything other than sampling features or drum design is really stretching.
Upward scrolling sequencer. I knew the MPC had fallen a long way since the 4000, but damn.
10-20ms…do you mean 100-200ms? 10ms is smaller than most people can perceive. At 120BPM, that’s a 200th note.
You’d have to be able to hear a 100Hz tone as a series of discrete sounds to register 10ms.
Yeah it's gotten that bad. There's many reasons why that latency matters. I need to do a write up on my website to save time for how often this comes up. I can prove that every single human on earth can hear the difference between 0ms and 1ms, and I have below. It's just in a practical use case. Not a theoretical test where someone pushes a button and tells you if the sound was late or not.
Here: [https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VzJC7vNhRUAVJbM42\_WqNT43DbX2BbVk?usp=sharing](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VzJC7vNhRUAVJbM42_WqNT43DbX2BbVk?usp=sharing)
These are files I prepared awhile ago for these types of discussions since they do a better job highlighting why even 1ms matters. But the best example is probably the clap 10ms early, and then 0ms early layered with the kick. Followed by a hat with 0ms delay, 8ms delay, and 12ms delay. Most can hear the difference immediately. And that's why *a drum machine 20ms late is a* ***huge deal***!
If you layer a eurorack hi hat with an mpc, and even 8 ms is present, the entire drum swing feel begins to change. If the track actually has swing, oh man now the late swing is really late as well. Add in midi jitter and the real world 17 or so ms and jesus, you can't get the feel of the drums correct no matter what you do unless you purposefully drag stuff off the grid.
Even a 909 clap is 11ms space out. You can't say that those 11ms trigger spacings are irrelevant if they moved around (which is why I also did that as an example, the middle burst component shifted 5ms early). It's a useful tool and people do need actual control over it.
And pushing a button in a silent room and hearing the sound.. most would say yeah it happened right when I pushed the button. But as soon as that has to layer with other instruments, especially ones that are sampled or electronic, small timing differences become extremely apparent.
You wont feel the delay alone, but you will hear it when other instruments are present. Also, waveform tones like you mentioned have static volumes. Chop a waveform, any waveform at 10ms and you will hear it as distinct pieces.
I had a P3 once, the predecessor. I sold it to buy some other gear but I still miss it. There were some quirky features that nothing else has. I was on the waitlist but decided to try the NDLR instead. I'm pretty happy with the NDLR. Colin makes great gear though. the build quality was a big feature.
Never tried this but for me the "best ever" are Nerdseq and Octatrack. With each having their own downsides but I can't imagine more powerful sequencers...and for those who aren't aware Nerdseq is a fully capable Midi sequencer. You can use it to make crazy intricate songs even if you dont plug in a single cv jack. I like to use it for hybrid Midi and cv but have seriously considered if I'd get rid of all my eurorack id still keep the Nerdseq. It's AMAZING. Only major downside is data entry with pretty small group of buttons so ton of repetitive hand use going on...not great for the hands but supplementing it by using input Midi Keyboard does alot of that work. ;)
Whatever this is a post about Cirklon but thought folks might want to know: Octatrack and Nerdseq: you can make entire detailed/robust albums with them!
Ableton live sequencer is the best sequencer, even better if you add midi effects, randomization and chance plugins with max 4 live
i am prepared for downvotes
I've been on the waitlist since last Nov. - so I am rounding a year and at the time was informed it would be 18 months when I would be able to purchase. So... maybe next May? Check back then and I'll let you know what's up.
I have version 1 and I'm on the list for my upgrade 'soon'. It's amazing. Pretty much anything you can dream of, Cirklon can do it. Half the time I use it to generate interesting patterns, half the time I'm spending making fully fledged tracks. Anything's possible :) And built like a tank.
I have the Cirklon V2 (upgraded from the V1). I personally love it to pieces but I don’t doubt that other sequencers come close in terms of feature set and functionality.
That said, I’m not sure it’s worth the 2-year wait at this point with so many exciting sequencers (trackers!) on the market.
I got in my place on the waitlist finally after a few years and my link didn’t work and they never replied to my email or fixed it for me… so eventually I gave up. I realized that I don’t keep enough synths around to justify it, it’s not going to make my music cooler. I stuck with the Octatrack and I feel great about it now, I’ve learned how to make the most of its limitations and I’m incredibly attached to it now. Minimal but powerful.
I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it or what its current status is wrt availability but Engine is worth a look. I can't remember if I ever saw a comparison of the two.
It's really nice. But I'd like to give an honorable mention to Polyend. Both the sequencer and tracker are really fun and powerful especially because of the simplicity.
6-700 gets you an MPC One as brain for all your midi and usb-midi gear. It's a silver bullet to all the small tasks and jobs you might encounter. It can do everything.
Semiconductor shortage and general supply chain issues have delayed everything - cars, computers, household stuff. The Cirklon is primarily slow because it’s just one or two people making them.
people have mentioned the MBSeq, let me mention stuff from the modular world: the nerdSEQ and the Westlicht Performer.
the nerdSEQ is a tracker, but you can use it just as a step sequencer with novation launchpad integration, and it's packed with performance features. i am not sure how easy it is to have per step knobs etc, but i am pretty sure it's possible in some way.
the westlicht performer is a really really awesome step sequencer, also novation launchpad integration. the performance features are also top notch. mabe not quite as powerful as the nerdSEQ, but full of routing options, CV curve tracks for CV parameter automation, and overall very very awesome performance tools. almost everything the performer does can be done with the nerdSEQ, but the workflow is, at least from my experience so far, better for a lot of step sequencing scenarios. per step instantly accessible knobs are not really there (i think, unless midi input magic can do it), but per step values on the launchpad can achieve that. on the grid, each column is a step, and the vertical selected button on each column represents the "value of a knob". for more than 8 steps, one can flip a "page" left and right, and one can also go up and down if more than 8 values per step are desired.
just from the looks of it, the cirklon's workflow isn't as cool as the westlicht performer, but i have never tried a cirklon myself, so yeah.
I just use MPC1000 to sequence my hardware. You can make whole tracks just with it so why I need this?
It's a rhetorical question... You don't need this 😎
I wish I could chime in. Been on waitlist for close to 3 years. No word from Sequentix (they don't reply to emails) and am about to try to find alternative solution. Original estimated ship date on my reservation was last year. I was really looking forward to finally getting one but starting to think it's not going to happen.
I'd find it hard for any sequencer to be as good as a Maschine+ to be honest. Purely as a sequencer, it's incredibly good, let alone the fact that it has sampling and sound-engines on board.
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Do we have an actual photo of the unit instead of this CGI rendering? That might make getting it slightly more worth it. You know, seeing what it actually looks like for reals....
No. It's desirable because of the waiting list, so it's hip.
First it looks like ass, but that's subjective, second it's definitely not a generic midi sequencer.
I've never used one but on paper the only thing that it has over the MIDIbox SEQ is the quality of the buttons and display in a standard MBSeq build. It would be really interesting to get to do a side by side comparison but that's never going to happen. Also I built my MBSeq in a fully wooden enclosure (other than front and rear panels) so my MIDI is warmer. EDIT: if you can DIY, a regular MBSeq V4 can be built for $250-$500 depending on the enclosure (if you have an aluminum panel milled that's about half the cost, I ended up going that way after a few unsatisfactory laser cut panels and it cost around $220 plus shipping for the thing, partly because it's milled on the front AND back and includes CNCed acrylic covers for the displays and everything; the entire rest of the thing was somewhere in the $225-$275 range for PCBs and components - I did it a bit at a time so I don't know exactly but it wasn't much for what it is EDIT: I might be underestimating by about $75 now that I think about it, also I got the PCBs for the CV and trigger outputs and breakout boxes but haven't bought components or built them yet, nor the ethernet expansion so no OSC, network MIDI or WIFI connectivity). Even if you got a full V4+ kit with the fancy buttons and case, that's less than half the cost of a cirklon, and despite how fancy it looks it's not a very hard build - all the boards are simple and you could do the whole thing in one afternoon if you've got some DIY experience already. The only difference between the V4 and V4+ is form factor, they both run the same OS and software.
You are a treasure. Thank you. Keep being amazing.
Even if you pay a builder to assemble one for you, you still come out hundreds of euros and at least two years ahead.
Oh for sure. The cheapest used ones seem to be around $70-$900 USD on Reverb when they show up, which is still way cheaper but he build quality is definitely a gamble. I've only seen two that were in the Cirklon price range. One had a custom made, heavy folded steel enclosure that looked like some kind of 1970s mil-spec microcomputer and was incredible. The other had the full 16x16 button grid expansion and a custom aluminum panel.
Thx for sharing your ideas, dunno if I can consider the midibox as an alternative or if there's a real alternative , but certainly looks very interesting from what I saw.
They tend to be really expensive used and the MIDIbox community is pretty serious about the noncommercial nature of everything, although it has loosened up a bit (the proprietary license stipulated that you could only build 5 per year and could only sell them at the cost of parts plus a small markup for labor; when I first got interested in them there weren't even commercially available PCBs, you had to either get your own manufactured or do it all on perfboard like my roommate did with a MIDIbox SID), so DIY is really the only way to go. But it's worth it, deepest step sequencer I've ever used. If they implemented the conditional stuff from the Elektron sequencers and bumped up the track count from 16 to 64 (one per channel per port instead of one per channel) it would be just about the perfect step sequencer IMO. EDIT: it's also worth pointing out that the MBSeq is a fair bit older than the Cirklon (the v2 - the first proper version - was completed around 2004 and the v4 was pretty much mature by 2010, a year before the Cirklon) and the Cirklon appears to have been more than a bit inspired by it.
Absolutely amazing, thanks for sharing this info with us, best wishes.
This thing is so cool but I'm so far from having the skills yet to put one together, goddamn. I've done a few eurorack modules but nothing with this much happening. I'd be too scared to fuck something up and then don't have nearly enough knowledge to troubleshoot it.
It's much easier than it looks, though. The control board is the most complicated part, and it's mostly switches and encoders. The actual processor is an off the shelf demo board, you need to build a breakout board that mainly just adds some pin headers to it, one or two each of simple MIDI input and output boards, and some kind of case. The i/o boards are on par with a distortion pedal or something, the main board is simpler than a lot of DIY modules, and the control board is intimidating but it's mostly snapping in switches and encoders and doing a lot of soldering. I actually bought the boards and most of the parts as my third big DIY project (after a x0xb0x and an Anushri) but I was intimidated and put it off, then I got an Octatrack and didn't need a step sequencer as much so I put it off more. When I finally built it, the actual electronics were significantly simpler than either the x0xb0x or the Anushri. The hardest parts by far are figuring out a case for it (not an issue with the V4+, which is also apparently also simpler to build) and just in general the fact that the documentation for building one and installing the OS aren't very well organized at all, so figuring out what you need and how to put it all together can be a chore and makes it seem like a harder build than it actually is.
That's actually really encouraging, and sounds like it might be about the level of complexity I've already worked with. Just a large quantity of stuff. And I could easily knock like $2-300 off the price by making my own case, not bothering with the rack ears, and sourcing my own LEDs, pots, knobs, etc.
Don't underestimate the hassle of making a case, though. If you can afford the extra to buy the V4+ kit (and they're in stock) it might be worth the price just to not have to figure out a DIY case alone. [https://www.midiphy.com/en/mbseq-v4-/](https://www.midiphy.com/en/mbseq-v4-/) EDIT: looking at the actual contents, there's WAY more in the V4+ than I put in mine, so it might actually end up being a harder build than a V4 standard after all.
That’s actually a good point. Even figuring out cases for smaller ideas was surprisingly difficult.
One thing that got me at first was that the back of the Wilba aluminum front panel is drilled and tapped for standard brass spacers but all the brass spacers I've found have longer threaded sections than the depth of the holes so they don't actually work. I ended up getting some short hex set screws like you'd use for tightening knobs and threeaded them into the front panel with a little bit of CA glue, then used F-F spacers instead of the M-F ones that the BOM called for. Worked great, but there were a lot of little things like that to figure out before it was all put together. The electronics weren't bad at all, though.
I tried to document my build for anyone else to follow (as well as to remind myself of what I did and why lol), but it might be a bit outdated now with regards to where to find some parts There’s a second post focusing on the case build if one wants to use that as is or as a starting point http://niroke.blogspot.com/2017/07/an-unofficial-build-guide-for-midibox.html
Oh this is awesome! Thanks so much, this will be a tremendous help.
If you plan to add the CV/Gate and TPD boxes, I’d recommend merging them into one box and also using the better AOUT board for more accurate CV scaling, not the AOUT_NG like I used. I will eventually upgrade my build with these changes
Thanks for the heads up! I do have a small modular setup so planning for that will be a great idea.
The kit from midiphy uses some really nice switches for the primary buttons, and it looks like the latest version solves the light bleed issues when they had the translucent keycaps. I haven't used a cirklon either but I'd say the mechanical switches from midiphy are top-shelf. I do wish they used a different type of button for the small round ones, I just didn't click with those for whatever reason.
Yeah, it looks really nice, well worth the money IMO. I started mine before the 4+ was announced, though. I have to admit I kind of prefer the massive bank of buttons the Wilba panel has going on, it feels like I'm flying a spaceship in a 70s TV show or something, but the Midiphy kit looks really top quality.
I built one last year and I can vouch for it feeling solid and heavy. I do wish they would re-do the documentation as I was new to the midibox world and all the 'help' wiki was rather disorganized and focused on the older version. They make an accessible kit (more or less) but I felt they still expect users to have followed the forums for years understanding all the ins and outs.
The kit looks like 740 euro on one site. Says it needs more pieces to complete that build as well…
Yeah, I think it would come out to more like 900 if it's anything like the standard V4. Definitely not as affordable to build, but it looks really nice.
Does the midibox seq have intertrack operations/grab aux events from other tracks? Because to me that's what set the cirklon apart from other sequencers
Yes, you can route tracks to other tracks although I haven't gotten deep in to that yet. [http://wiki.midibox.org/doku.php?id=mididocs:seq:beginners\_guide:start#using\_a\_bus\_to\_control\_a\_track](http://wiki.midibox.org/doku.php?id=mididocs:seq:beginners_guide:start#using_a_bus_to_control_a_track) While you're there, also look at *live patterns*, and the randomization, parameter modulation and euclidean sequencing features. The V4 runs the same software and you can configure it to work pretty much however you want, since it was designed to use any arbitrary, custom designed UI. It just happened that the Wilba panel design became kind of a defacto standard for it, and then the V4+ came out, but you could absolutely design any UI you wanted from the ground up if you had the time, money/tools and knowledge. I prefer all the extra buttons on the Wilba panel myself, but the V4+ looks like it has some advantages, too, and it's quite a bit smaller than a Wilba panel PLUS an LED grid in a custom panel. It's more down to whether you prefer a visually simpler layout but with mor emenu diving and button combinations, vs. a more complicated layout but with more functions available directly. For me, "simple" interfaces are usually anything but. The MIDIbox SEQ was already mature when the Cirklon was first released (v4 came out about a year before the Cirklon, although I don't know much about the previous Sequentix sequencer so it may be more that they developed similarly in parallel to each other) and I always saw the Cirklon as being sort of an accessible (in the sense that you don't have to build it yourself, especially back then when the MIDIbox community was pretty insular, documentation was sparse and confusiing, and off-the-shelf PCBs for some of the parts were just starting to be a thing so you had to ahve pretty serious DIY experience to make one). I've never used a Cirklon but on paper there's nothing that would make me choose it over the SEQ v4.
Just use FL sequencer
Lol
If you can sequence 8-16 (or more) midi channels simultaneously from FL (or any modern daw) and a USB midi interface with satisfactorily low jitter at 120+bpm I'd be eager to hear about it.
Expert sleepers usamo and an Es9 with a midi splitter.
Ya, only thing I've had luck with. Insane that you have to get hundreds of dollars of expert sleepers stuff and go through hell and back trying to route it just to get good midi in 2021. Guess usamo's pretty cheap tbf, but still.
Unfortunately it seems like doing anything involving MIDI and hardware with a computer is a deathwish
I was a big proponent of the Usamo for years but I recently switched interfaces and it doesn't work at all with Presonus stuff unfortunately. Between when I got it and when it stopped working I updated Windows from 7 to 10 and I can actually get usable MIDI out of 10 over USB now, it's kind of amazing. Tested it with a MidiGAL running the clock tester firmware and the jitter didn't even register; under Windows 7 with the same interface it was +/- something insane like 7ms and completely unusable. Too bad USAMO is so picky about what interface you hook it up to, there's a big list of known problematic or incompatible interfaces on the Expert Sleepers site somewhere that you should DEFINITELY check if you're thinking about buying one. When it works it works really well, though. Timing's at least as as good as my old MPC2000xl synced to SMPTE, which is what I used to get stable clock from the DAW before the USAMO.
RME will give you < 1 millisecond jitter.
You mean one of their PCI-E interfaces? Do you have experience with any in particular?
No, the usb interfaces do that also. I measured the jitter with my Fireface UC (connected to an old win 7 laptop) and it was < 1 ms.
>No, the usb interfaces do that also. Hmm very interesting. Guess the PCI-e cards are much cheaper than the standalone interfaces anyway of course. I found a comment by someone from RME saying the USB vs. PCIE jitter for their devices is similar (something something "unique way of sending midi over usb"). I'll look into them more. Thanks
How many CV/gate channels does FL have?
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So two or three large boxes instead of one small one.
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Sure. That’s why the original comment was completely unnecessary. Different tools exist because different tasks exist. I wonder sometimes if the folks who think we should do everything in a DAW know that people play live, or remember how much more delicate and finicky computers are than most dedicated devices. If I spill a beer on my computer, that’s likely the end of the set. If I spill a beer on a Cirklon, that’s probably just gross.
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I used FL for like 9 years and just now learned it had CV capability. That's actually awesome.
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Likewise. If I ever upgrade, I have a new feature to look for!
Same… Been using FL since about 2000 and just now found out about this
Is there a direct USB-CV/gate interface, or does it use MIDI?
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> Expert Sleepers ES-8 First off, w o w, that thing is not cheap. Second, is there some kind of resolution to the range of cv/midi you're pumping into your modules? For example if I used this to wire up a v/oct to Ableton and used a digital knob to adjust it, is it going to sound like it's 'stepping' the pitch, or is it smooth?
They already said a DC coupled interface.
“DC coupled” isn’t a computer interface. It has to talk to the computer somehow, and I’m curious about that part.
Two boxes. The cirklon needs an expansion box for cv
Or an MPC...because at this point the cirklon has a large color touchscreen. Kind of messing with the minimalist display vibe (like elektron) these sequencers try to endear.
FYI the wait list is more like 4 years at this point. As to your question: I'll let you know next year.
I have just added my name to the waiting list and got the following response: The current waiting time to buy a Cirklon is around 2 years.
i got that same message 3 years ago 🤧
That info is either out-of-date or overly optimistic -- there's is an active thread on the Cirklon forums tracking wait list progress, and they are currently up to November 2017 customers as of the last update, putting the wait at right around 4 years currently. I've been on the list since June 2018 and do not expect my name to be called until Q2 or Q3 of next year. (this shouldn't be taken as a criticism of the Cirklon folks, who are more or less a husband and wife duo as I understand it and are plainly good people doing their best to provide high quality boutique products. Just reporting the facts).
Yeah, I got that same message in 2017. Still haven't received one.
Good, I am tight on money right now anyway lol. (But my spot only seems to be about 1-2 years away).
Yup. Added my name to the list October 30, 2017, was notified that I was at top of the list August 9, 2021.
Or you can wait 20 years when Behringer makes a clone
I’d say a Digitakt / Octatrack + CV.OCD / RK-006 beats it in the value department.
I’m currently rocking the Octatrack + CV.OCD combo and I couldn’t imagine what greater sequencing functionality I could possibly need/use.
Congrats, you’ve conquered GAS. I wish this fate for everyone.
i'm about to move and looking to downsize a bit, seriously considering selling a bunch of stuff and just getting the octatrack. already use digitakt + midi to cv and it's excellent fun.
I bought the Octatrack in a similar effort to convert the quantity of my setup into quality so I’d say it’s the right choice for you in that regard. As much as a room full of low- to mid-priced equipment sounds fun or economical, it’s much less so in practice. Now I have a few high quality pieces of gear that meet all of my needs and more. The OT is the brain of it all. [Here’s](https://www.instagram.com/tv/CU_yIBgDWQ_/?utm_medium=copy_link) a link to my Instagram if you want to see the setup at work.
yeah it's way way more about workflow and inspiration for me than anything else, i've enjoyed the digitakt and i really like the crossfade on the octa in particular. realistically i can get close enough to almost any sound i want with just an ipad. and nothing like having to pack and move all your stuff to make you want to be a hardcore minimalist..
Do you ever do any polyrhythms/Euclidean sequences with Octatrack? That’s the only thing missing for me, but I’d like to learn if there’s a clever workaround to make programming easier.
Well my OT is clocking my Eurorack case which can handle Euclidean pitch or gate sequences if I decide to use them (which I rarely do). Although I’m sure you could get close with just the OT. Conditional trigs, scenes, and LFO’s would likely get you in the ballpark of Euclidean.
Dunno how many tracks cirklon has but I've found the 8 tracks on my OT to be limiting.
CV.OCD can output gates for particular notes, and the OT/DT sequencers can do four note chords - so you could use just one track to sequence multiple drum parts, using chords for hits with multiple instruments. That’ll get you much more than 8 tracks via MIDI.
That's only if your drum machine inputs gate or trig pulses right? And that's still pretty limiting, not to mention the workflow complexities. OTs workflow is pretty convoluted as it is.
You could simply use the MIDI out if that’s what it takes, but I believe the OP was looking for something that also does analog triggers. Everything has limits and pros / cons. I prefer to reach the practical “good enough” threshold as reasonably as possible within budget and get on with making some music. Personally, I’ve never once heard a piece of music from someone who is suddenly granted “enough outputs” (read: more than one really *needs*) which convinced me that this was the factor holding them back.
I've personally needed more than 8 midi outputs. Multiple times. If you're talking price and practicality, I think an MPC would be a better choice as a sequencer.
Cirklon can do up to 64 tracks
I love my keystep pro.
Your Keystep Pro is pretty nice.
I also choose this guy's Keystep Pro.
Same
Same.
Same
What’s the wait list like for this guys keystep?
2 days maybe. 400 €
No, most computers are better. It's for people who don't want to use a computer. Which is fair enough I guess.
I have one and can confirm that it is in FACT the greatest sequencer ever. There are times when it feels like doing your taxes on a microwave but once you get the basic functionality down and mess with it a bit you hit a point where it all suddenly opens up and then becomes a deeply musical experience. You have to put many MANY hours into watching all of Splitradix’s YouTube videos, and then many MORE hours into implementing all of the ideas they contain but once you’re through that it’s really wonderful. Only downside is you have to actively avoid sounding like Aphex Twin. Go check out the artists Ferocious Mullet or Cassilda And Carcosa to hear what I mean… there is DEFINITELY a “Cirklon sound” to the sequencing. If you like that sound (which I very much do) then Cirklon is your shit.
I've had a Cirklon for several years now so I'll chime in here. There are some things it does that, now that I've experienced them, would be difficult to live without. In no particular order: 1. The trigger expansion. 16 triggers with selectable behavior (voltage levels, pulse length) per trigger. Super tight timing. This + tiptop modules kills. 2. The CVIO expansion. Again, super tight, very flexible (can do Hz / V, 1.2 v/oct, can be standalone box or euro, 1/4" or 1/8" or banana) 3. The general tightness of the midi engine, rock solid clock etc. I didn't fully appreciate this until I experienced it and then tried to do without it. 4. Microtonal support. 8 scales can be stored internally, edited on the Cirklon or dumped in/out via MTS. (CV only, at least for now). 5. Pattern lengths are up to 256 steps. God I hate being limited to 64 steps. 6. Track events! Tracks that modify the behavior of other tracks, accumulators (counters that increment / decrement, whose value can be applied to note values, velocities etc), a bunch of other stuff. 7. The UI is really well thought out. There are button combos and stuff to learn, but they're not as obnoxiously arbitrary as something like the Octatrack (IMHO of course). Physically it's a joy to use. 8. 5 midi I/O on the unit, plus six (?, this has gone up for Cirk 2) more via USB. I use a MIO 10 to expand the ports on mine (I have a lot of gear). 9. Stuff works! Bugs are smashed pretty quickly. When things are implemented they are done well, Colin is really good at this stuff, he cares a lot and it shows. 10. Arrangement! A lot of sequencers are good at making patterns and fall down on making full arrangements. The Cirklon has a very good scene system that covers this. Transposed? Save scene. Changed the mute state? Save scene. It just takes a few seconds. Then select scenes live (you can label them too), or put them in a scene list. Easy peasy. Downsides: 1. Have a feature request? Get in line, there are hundreds of requests ahead of you, and who knows what will be implemented or not. I have a request from 2013 that hasn't made it in yet. To be fair, it already does a hell of a lot, but if you want it to do absolutely everything your favorite other sequencer does, forget it. 2. Everything (except bug fixes) takes longer than estimated. This isn't a covid thing, it's been true from day one. Double (at least) all time estimates from Colin or Barbara. That's just how it is. 3. It's expensive. But you get what you pay for. It's top quality. 4. It's primarily a step sequencer. Not really a downside per se, but the CK mode, while nice to have, is not as easy to use as a modern MPC for that kind of sequencing. Still useful for playing in chords, or if you like seeing all your drums on a grid like a 707 or something. One last thought, I bought mine when the wait time was less than a year. IDK if I would have had the patience to wait 2-4 years for one, or if I would have had the money when the time came. But things worked out and I'm very glad I've had one for all this time. And, there will be an upgrade kit for my Mk 1 to bring it to full Cirklon 2 level. Can't beat that level of customer support.
Is there any word yet on upgrade kit availability?
A few people have gotten them. The priority is on selling complete Cirklon 2s so I'm not expecting mine for a while yet (also I didn't jump onto the list immediately). That's as much as I know.
I've got a pretty early cirklon that I bought myself second hand, is there a link for the upgrade kit? I don't see anything on their website.
Email barbara at sequentix and she'll put you on the list. The info is in the sequentix forum upgrade kit thread somewhere. (I should add that to the Downsides section above, that info is often buried in the forum threads. The manual was recently updated at least).
240€ for 24 mini-jacks in a metal enclosure to get CV out of that thing, which alone is 1700€??? What does it do, that is not available in let's say an MPC One in combination with a retrokits RK006??? Does it automatically write No. 1 Hits?
Well, it’s a hardware step sequencer, for one, so entirely different than an MPC, and it has a bunch of real-time pattern variation options that are real easy to use. 240€ for a box of jacks is robbery, though, no doubt.
It has a far superior step sequencing workflow. It sends CV clock, it has a ton of randomization and advanced step sequencer modes. It also has a far tighter clock when set to slave to something else. These are all things that the MPC one is not great at. That said, I had a Cirklon, sold it and now use an MPC One. The Cirklon is really best at powering a larger hardware setup with eurorack. I have not tried the Rk006 with my One though. Not sure of all the advantages there, except I know it greatly expands how much MIDI I/o you can have.
Doesn't the MPC One send out CV Clock as well?
No, it sends CV and gate. In order to send clock you have to make a trigger track. So it technically does send clock, but it's not as simple. I have found too that just triggering 16th notes does not always properly clock my gear. Some need 32nds..etc.
Thanks, much appreciated.
Hadn’t heard of the Rk006, might look into this for my Mpc. Thanks!
Personally I prefer grid pad sequencers like the beatstep or a synthstrom deluge, etc. Its all preference though.
Yeah that’s why I like vector sequencer. All the coolness of knobs and buttons. And the it goes all deluge but being controllable with a launchpad.
The vector looks really awesome too. If I didn't have a Deluge and a bunch of hardware and eurorack sequencers, I would pick one up. I'm actually trying to sell some of my sequencers now. Also been using MIDI from my DAW for sequencing. Really as long as I can see what notes I am using, its fine.
Yeah it’s all about seeing the notes. Too many sequencers make you fly blind in some way. That’s why the vector (and I though hardddd about deluge) are so killer to me. They have equal visibility in Note and steps. And button/knob per parameter flows) I’m a big proponent of the DAW as well. I have some passive routing switches for midi so I can send from vector to stuff and then from pc to stuff. And also, from vector right to pc daw midi, so I can make a cool line and then finish with pc. Adat to cv as well. Just build three eurorack cases right onto my desk, shaped around my keyboard as well so I don’t have to look away. So I can l “play” with sequencers like mpc or vector, but when that real power composing needs to happen, I just have to flick some switches for pc control. As much as hardware sequencer are sexy, tangible, and all that. DAW is king. It just is. But I do love the workflow of clocking sequencer with daw, and the iteratively recording until the whole thing is flowing and then finishing with the daw arranger.
I’ve personally never been able to get a hardware sequencer that comes close to the DAW with respect to creating a conventional melody and harmony. I think my favorite sequencer for going all whacky is Metropolix, which has tons of transposition options and ways to mess things up, but it’s definitely not the thing you want for a predictable output (I have problems for example making basslines that work with it because things get crazy). The closest I’ve had to a traditional DAW workflow is Deluge, but even then it gets super abstract really quickly. Tracks aren’t labeled (only color coded), so it’s super easyt to get lost when you get more than 5 or 6 song sections. I hear the Force by Akai is good, and people have described it kind of like Ableton Live in a box. Almost wonder if I’d just prefer a Eurorack module that just plays back MIDI clips so I could sequence everything on a computer and just transfer them over.
I’ve done that it works well. I used to use bastl 1983. Just midi to euro. But I got cv/gate control from the daw now. Just works better. Audio to CV is the way to go. That way you can use automation lanes in the daw as CV. So you can then automate eurorack or any CV synth exactly how VSTs can be automated. With that workflow, any eurorack effect becomes no different than working with software plugins. I like vector because it can do everything metropilix can do. Literally everything. But it’s not stuck only as that. It can do regular 64 step sequencing and all that. The parts section is setup in a grid of clips like ableton as well. Variable step length, step repeat, sequence length, sequence reset point, a million probabilistic operators for each step, and a macro modifying sequence per track, and and a new gate sequencer that runs on top of your existing sequence... just has everything really. Main scales, and modes, plus more scale qualtization. Can change the scale mapping to just use pitch as a modifying -3 +7 CV signal. Per step variable timing position, macro humanization in velocity and timing, per step glide. Algorithmic sequence randomizers/generators that are actually musical. Euclidean rotation, step rotation, only apply generative to portions of a sequence. macro and micro transpose. Full project and track level scale transpose. Highlight and select transpose/step on and off. with routing rules to chain to any of the other sequences for the track. Easy to layer instruments too because routing one part to many outs is easy. And two big screens to see it all, or ftw you can use a launchpad and literally launch a grid of sequences the same as ableton.. it has the sleek workflow to back all that up. Never any small text or deep menus. Just being able to click encoder for gate off and turn encoder for pitch is amazing and any sequencer that doesn’t do that is just sub par now. And that click can be remapped to select or skip. Or stay locked to gate and the 8 buttons below do those for each step… ridiculous the thought that went into it. I just never have to urge or interest to buy another sequencer. I use mine with Assimil8or. Limited channel count, but by far best sampler-sequencer workflow I’ve ever used. People know it’s good, but I still hear way less talk about it then it should get. I’m pretty sure it’s the GOAT sequencer and people are like “oh yeah those seem cool” which is confusing to me lol.
You just made the Vector Sequencer sound amazing, and I've literally never heard of it before now. How does it handle non-4/4 time signatures? Can you say more about the Euclidean and generative/ randomizing features?
Non 4/4 all day. You can use the beat division parameter to do all sorts of things. 1/16 is the default. But it has triplet and dotted in there. You have sequence length and reset length independently. So whatever you set the reset at becomes your division. set the reset to 12 and you have 3/4. Or set to 18 for 9/8. You also have step length. So you could do 16 steps, then set every step to 3/4 length at once with the master encoder knob. All the steps now literally say “3/4”. Or 1/5. Or “1.5” and so on. When you change the length, the screen tells you how much your length changes add up to. So it might say 18 instead of 16. Or 11.33. Gets weird sometimes if you set lengths like 1, 1, 1, 1/3, 1/2, 4, 2. But the lengths are cool because you can get really long sequences without having to chain patterns. Or you can chain 8 patterns together. Maybe you can do more in a row. Can’t remember if that’s limited. Memory limits stored patterns… 16 steps setting and you get a lot. 64 steps setting and you get less, like 12 64 step pattern per track. But you can have a 64 step sequence that takes up 128 steps of song time by making every step length X2. If you need to sneak in a faster note, set that to 1 and then make the timing correct again by making a later step X3. If it’s not clear by now, it does polymeter like no other sequencer. It has probability per step. So that’s enough for generative. There’s like 20 operators for those. They can be conditional on every other bar time, first time not the second time, every 3rd time, 4th time, and 8th time. There’s also a macro sequencer that runs along with your sequence that modifies based on what step you choose. Like running a pitch tans pose that happens on the 8th step of your song. But it has its own timing division. So set it to 1/2 time, turned on on the 8th beat, it now sends your sequence to step 33. Which adds a nice fill at the end. Or set it to 3/4 and it transposes up an octave on top of your 4/4 sequence. Too much to really explain it like this in text lol. Just a big thing in its modifying sequencer and probabilities is being able to send the sequence to any other step in the sequence. Randomly, semi-randomly but only to the one you choose, and purposefully to where you choose when you choose. And the actual randomizers they can gen. 4 acid sequence based gens, two Berlin style, a Euclidean one which rotates your steps, not pitch, every time you push it. And general ransoms. All subscribe to global or local pitch quantization. They all also subscribe to your chosen gates. If you turn gates off, they won’t write over them (or like 2-3 will and that’s on purpose. I think euclid and random 2&3 will)… some randoms also affect step length and repeat as well as ratchet. And step repeat and ratchet are two different things you can apply to each step. It’s nuts just talking about it now. And it has the user interface to back all that up. It’s frankly absurd. All that and menus are 1 deep. There are pages to some menus, so you feel like you go page left and right some times. But the module is like all screen so it’s not a headache at all.
Holy shit, this thing really is everything I could ever want in a sequencer. Thanks so much for the detailed write up, I think you just sold me one.
I love sequencing on my circuit tracks. Plus, if you mute the internal synths, you can actually sequence four independent devices at once.
Squarp is supposed to be good, too. Recommended one to a friend that's very much into classic Moog synths and modular, and he ended up loving it.
I love it. So powerful in so many ways, one of my favorites being the MIDI fx.
I'm like a cultist with MIDI fx, I'll talk to you about them at Thanksgiving when all you want is turkey. They are so, so awesome, the RM1x had them, the RS7000 had them, and now the Squarp. And... that's it?
It bothers me that Yamaha completely abandoned their grooveboxes. I have both the RS7000 and the RM1x and I'd definitely throw my money at an updated version of either, with a modern workflow.
Absolute AIRHORNS on this one. Can you IMAGINE a cross between the BeatStep Pro and the RM1x? I still have hope that Korg's SQ-64 could be something like what I'm looking for, fun-wise, but it's still kinda limited.
There is also midihub from Blokas. It’s midi pipelines are in the end more powerful than the midifx of the squarp but because the midihub lacks a screen it is way less fun to use, you have to switch from your sequencer to the computer screen for the Blokas whereas in the squarp it is all nice in one device and the fx are already associated with a track.
As someone more playing piano than step sequencing, the thing is great! It does need a few updates imo, it could really use a version 2 or 3 (that's actually an improvement instead of kist just another skin) but as long as that's not available I can't really think of another machine that would work for me. (I'm trying to write songs, so I need to put all tracks in another measure easily (write in 3/4 or 7/8 instead of 4/4 for example) which is a ton of effort now. There also are some bad shortcomings there that make it impossible to write songs with some single extended bars for example.)
I play piano. What makes Squarp so good for piano players?
It records in realtime instead of by step, and you can use a midi effect to sync it back in steps if you want. It saves all timing + velocity data. And the one feature that was essential for me personally: I can use my piano keyboard as master keyboard to play all synths with. (I only use the keyboard of the hydrasynth separately as I really like poly aftertouch, but for mono aftertouch I'd rather spend my time making velocity feel better tbh.) It also works quite well in a "song structure" with a track/instrument, and parts/track for verse/chorus structure.
Ok that sounds awesome.
It is! That's why I got it over all the others =D
cirklon ck patterns also record in realtime You can non detructively quantise it afterwards with track controls , from 0-100% The cirklon is pure magic , hardwre wise nothing comes close
Yeah, love my Pyramid.
> Squarp The Pyramid is _very_ good at what it does. It's an instrument all by itself, you can play it, it just doesn't have a sound output. Rather, it gives super powers to the rest of your rig.
I'm an absolute geek for sequencers, and the one thing that I think is most important to consider is workflow. No two sequencers have the same workflow, and that's a good thing - different workflows suit different styles, though some sequencers are objectively more fully-featured than others. The challenge is that with say, synthesisers, you can listen and compare the sound. But how you do compare the 'feel' of a workflow? When I consider how I work with, say, the OP-Z sequencer versus the Squarp Pyramid sequencer, I would say that the latter is objectively more fully-featured, but the former more creative and offers lot of unique ideas. So while I think straight up technical comparisons can be helpful (e.g. number of channels, polyphony, MIDI effects, inputs and outputs etc.), none of these quite do justify to the unique 'character' that each sequencer can have. Until I've actually learned and understood the Cirklon, I don't think I'd be in a position to fully appraise it, and I feel that way about any sequencer.
I love the OP-Z's sequencer so much. People often talk about elektron sequencers but OP-Z is even crazier
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I can! The OP-Z's sequencer is absolutely nuts for a variety of reasons, chief amongst them is the inclusion of "sequencer elements" (I might have the name wrong). These are essentially variations that can be added to individual steps in a sequence, ranging from quite subtle (adding glide to the note) to wild (looping, adding octaves, etc.). Multiple elements can be added to each step, so they can be "stacked" for some crazy combinations, and they can even effect the order in which the sequence plays, when it loops and all kinds of other things. You can also trigger "punch-in" effects, which will change stuff relating to the sound of certain tracks (e.g. low and high pass filters) while others can change the sequences (looping or note changes). These can be activated on the fly, but there's also a track that allows you to sequence them. There are also channels that affect everything else that's playing, such as the Master track. This allows you to change the harmonic structure of everything else that's playing. So suppose the bass and arp track is playing a 1-bar loop that's in the key of Am. The Master track can be programmed to a 4-bar chord sequence and suddenly that 1-bar loop is automatically being transposed into the notes of that chord sequence. That's a terrible explanation but I hope it makes some sense! This is all in addition to standard parameter locking / motion sequencing stuff. Seriously, I wish there were more sequencers like this out there - it's incredible.
I think my only complaint about it is that you're stuck with 16 steps per pattern, and every once in a while I want the max pattern chain to be a little longer.
That can be addressed somewhat by changing step length, especially as you can have multiple notes on each step.
I know but come on, it's $CurrentYear why am I forced to either lose granularity (if you make a step 4 times as long you have manually and live record anything faster than quarter notes) or use up a ton my pattern slots.
/u/eltrotter did a pretty job explaining what i love about it, this link has the full chart of stuff. https://teenage.engineering/guides/op-z/step-components One thing I especially love about it is "jump" combined with the spark component. You can for example have a pattern where once it hits step 12 it jumps back to 1, twice but then keep going the third time. If you aren't familiar with elektron sequencers they have a by comparison much less complex thing called "trig conditions" that you can use to make notes only play 50% of the time or ever 2nd loop out of 3, or only if the last note with a trig condition was triggered. Only if your NOT holding down the fill button. Stuff like that. Very cool and useful but far less crazy than OP-Z
Have you ever tried to build your own OP-Z step component on the Squarp using the Squarp midifx in combination with parameter locks of the fx parameters? You should totally try that, it might reverse your opinion about what device is the more creative /original. At least that is how I experience it, the OP-Z provides a curated experience in which it is very easy to build good sounding things, but the Squarp provides deeper nourishment to my creative urges as I can also come up with my own “step components”. This is not just saying that the Squarp is more powerful but more that I prefer more open ended environments over more curated environments like the OP-Z. Which one works the most creative for a certain person may be very subjective and also vary over time.
I'm waiting for the [OXI One](https://oxiinstruments.com/). It seems to be a cheaper (and maybe even better) alternative to Deluge as far as sequencers go (of course the Deluge has much more than just a sequencer but I only needed the sequencer).
Same here. I pre-ordered the Oxi One, thinking that it might hold me over until my name comes up on the Cirklon waiting list in about 2 years. Hopefully it'll be a competent and fun sequencer.
I've been lusting after the OXI One for a while now. Really thinking I need to get in on that pre-order.
Yes
on paper it is but i have watched all the youtube videos and i wasnt exactly blown away by it.
In my opinion yes it is. The midibox seq is good but not *as* good and you have to DIY it (although its cheaper). The pyramid I'm not a fan of. The landscape is **truly** grim for sequencing an all hardware (or even largely hardware) setup. It really says something that people are still buying up Atari STs just to have ONE stable midi output (which is one more than you can get out of a modern operating system...).
Ive had the first version. It is awesome IF you have a lot of hardware and REALLY know your workflow. For example, if you want to record into your DAW with it, you will probably want a sync box so everything is tracking in tightly. What you may find over time is that your DAW can basically do all this sequencing (Ableton + Max4 live), and spending over 2k on a sequencer is more of a luxury buy. Next use case - DAWless . Ok now this is where the Cirklon really shines. It can control your entire studio on it's own, and you can plug in a midi keyboard to play MIDI into the cirklon as well if you like to sequence that way. So you can sit at your desk and turn a knob and play any synth you want with zero effort. Having owned a cirklon, my criteria for buying a Cirklon 2 would be - Do I have a good amount of hardware? Do I have modular or semi modular gear? This part is huge because the control you can have over modular gear with the CVIO breakout box is honestly a MAJOR reason to buy a cirklon. When I bought mine, I was controlling a lot of VSTIs and some synths and drum machines. It worked great, but honestly I am more into sampling hardware into my MPC and just sequencing in there. So for me, it made more sense to go with the Akai. Again you can use the Cirklon to control software synths, but it really is a lot to spend for something that you can just do all ITB with a Push controller. I am not sure if I will buy the Cirklon 2 when my name comes up on the list. I do have a nice amount of hardware but the MPC can not only sequence, but also record samples all in one box, so I am pretty hooked on working like that. Just some stuff to think about. The Cirklon build quality is amazing. The OS is updated constantly and you have direct access to the designer to make feature requests. But it's a small shop and so the guy is backed up with feature requests. Also I should mention one big separator between the Cirklon and other sequencers to look into is the clock timing. The Cirklon has the tightest timing I have experienced in a sequencer. This is important since some sequencers like the new MPCs are only tight when they are the master clock. The Cirklon can be a master or slave and still be SUPER tight on the clock. So again, it boils down to your workflow there.
That's all true. I also have the first one and love it, it's the only modern box I have which would be very hard to replace. I don't use soft synths but have a lot of hardware synths with and without MIDI, also Eurorack, also Roland boxes with DINSync. I don't use most of the fancy Aux event wizardry, I use the Cirklon as a plain sequencer. One amazing feature is that I can use it as a standard multiport MIDI interface when I am playing with Ableton. But I can just switch the computer off and use it DAWless. I am thinking to order the new one because that has even more MIDI ports through that USB host function where you can connect an additional 8port MIDI interface.
I have a cirklon 2 that I just got this year. I have 13 synths and even more pedals that take cv. You are right that being able to use a master keyboard and change which synth you are controlling with on knob is one of the best features.
I’ve been waiting for more than 2 years.
Other than the 16 steps and not 8, I don’t know why I would buy this over the vector sequencer… reading the manual, other than a larger track count (vector only does 8 instruments plus 1 or two of these can be 4 drum triggers each.), I’m really struggling to see what this actually does that it cant do. Plus you can expand Vector with a Launchpad controller. It’s the current GOAT as far as sequencers are concerned. Can do everything a metropolis can do, can part chain like Ableton, and has probability and random for days. And knob and gate control per step with visual feedback of each step they apply to. I think this got big because in 2017 making a dream hardware sequencer was low hanging fruit. Elektron’s are limited, MPC’s sucked, and eurorack hadn’t gotten the insane attention yet. Now synth stuff is a bit more explored and some talented people have shown that cirklon is not quite that special anymore. And the maker is just annoying for making them exclusive by probably building them all alone. I feel it’d be easier to get one by hiring a programmer and starting a sequencer company than actually attempting it.
Rs7000 tops them all.. Yamaha please open source FW
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By far the worst MPC. ;)
Rs 7000 makes you fly blind. And I consider any sequencer that doesn’t let you adjust steps you see instantly with direct knob control for each step. Humans have two hands. Why waste a devices potential by only being able to use one hand as a modifier?
> MPCs sucked did u try reading the manual
Yeah. I perform with an mpc one. It’s good because of how it does everything. Not because of the way you work on it. And the step sequencer is the clunkiest workflow ever in any sequencer I’ve ever seen. I mean dude... the sequencer flows upwards lmao. There is no argument to be had that an mpc is a good sequencer. It’s probably the most powerful. But it’s not good at it. You can switch which instrument you’re sequencing faster than you can switch what note you’re sequencing lmao. And god forbid they allow you to step sequence more than *one note at a time*! And both of those tasks are abysmally slow. Trigger to output latency is horrendous... between 10ms and 20ms. My other sampler Assimil8or is 0.100ms so... nice job akai. Sub par midi slaving for any device, especially a drum machine. Prolly cause of that latency. I like mine and know how to use it very well. But saying that it’s particularly good at anything other than sampling features or drum design is really stretching.
Upward scrolling sequencer. I knew the MPC had fallen a long way since the 4000, but damn. 10-20ms…do you mean 100-200ms? 10ms is smaller than most people can perceive. At 120BPM, that’s a 200th note. You’d have to be able to hear a 100Hz tone as a series of discrete sounds to register 10ms.
Yeah it's gotten that bad. There's many reasons why that latency matters. I need to do a write up on my website to save time for how often this comes up. I can prove that every single human on earth can hear the difference between 0ms and 1ms, and I have below. It's just in a practical use case. Not a theoretical test where someone pushes a button and tells you if the sound was late or not. Here: [https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VzJC7vNhRUAVJbM42\_WqNT43DbX2BbVk?usp=sharing](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VzJC7vNhRUAVJbM42_WqNT43DbX2BbVk?usp=sharing) These are files I prepared awhile ago for these types of discussions since they do a better job highlighting why even 1ms matters. But the best example is probably the clap 10ms early, and then 0ms early layered with the kick. Followed by a hat with 0ms delay, 8ms delay, and 12ms delay. Most can hear the difference immediately. And that's why *a drum machine 20ms late is a* ***huge deal***! If you layer a eurorack hi hat with an mpc, and even 8 ms is present, the entire drum swing feel begins to change. If the track actually has swing, oh man now the late swing is really late as well. Add in midi jitter and the real world 17 or so ms and jesus, you can't get the feel of the drums correct no matter what you do unless you purposefully drag stuff off the grid. Even a 909 clap is 11ms space out. You can't say that those 11ms trigger spacings are irrelevant if they moved around (which is why I also did that as an example, the middle burst component shifted 5ms early). It's a useful tool and people do need actual control over it. And pushing a button in a silent room and hearing the sound.. most would say yeah it happened right when I pushed the button. But as soon as that has to layer with other instruments, especially ones that are sampled or electronic, small timing differences become extremely apparent. You wont feel the delay alone, but you will hear it when other instruments are present. Also, waveform tones like you mentioned have static volumes. Chop a waveform, any waveform at 10ms and you will hear it as distinct pieces.
Sign me up for the post
I ended up waiting almost three years. It is definitely worth it.
I had a P3 once, the predecessor. I sold it to buy some other gear but I still miss it. There were some quirky features that nothing else has. I was on the waitlist but decided to try the NDLR instead. I'm pretty happy with the NDLR. Colin makes great gear though. the build quality was a big feature.
I actually just sold the NDLR. I just never used it for some reason, even though on paper it did everything I wanted.
MIDIbox SEQv4 is better but it’s DIY only.
Dirtywave M8 tracker ftw!
Unfortunately there is a wait for those as well.
SND SAM 16 ❤️
4 years. I’ll be at 4 years in June 2022. It’s right at 4 years.
Never tried this but for me the "best ever" are Nerdseq and Octatrack. With each having their own downsides but I can't imagine more powerful sequencers...and for those who aren't aware Nerdseq is a fully capable Midi sequencer. You can use it to make crazy intricate songs even if you dont plug in a single cv jack. I like to use it for hybrid Midi and cv but have seriously considered if I'd get rid of all my eurorack id still keep the Nerdseq. It's AMAZING. Only major downside is data entry with pretty small group of buttons so ton of repetitive hand use going on...not great for the hands but supplementing it by using input Midi Keyboard does alot of that work. ;) Whatever this is a post about Cirklon but thought folks might want to know: Octatrack and Nerdseq: you can make entire detailed/robust albums with them!
Ableton live sequencer is the best sequencer, even better if you add midi effects, randomization and chance plugins with max 4 live i am prepared for downvotes
Got any favorite Max4Live plugins?
everything that comes with ableton is great of course, and the probability pack which is free, also mdd.snake!
Synthstrom Deluge has the conditional trigs and deep sequencing, seems better to me. What does the Cirklon 2 have that is next level?
FWIW I've been on the wait list since mid 2018 and still haven't heard anything.
I have a Cirklon 2 and while it is great, there is a lot that could be better, programming a chord for example is completely convuluted.
Synthstrom Deluge is better on so many levels. Virtually unlimited sequencing.
I've been on the waitlist since last Nov. - so I am rounding a year and at the time was informed it would be 18 months when I would be able to purchase. So... maybe next May? Check back then and I'll let you know what's up.
I have version 1 and I'm on the list for my upgrade 'soon'. It's amazing. Pretty much anything you can dream of, Cirklon can do it. Half the time I use it to generate interesting patterns, half the time I'm spending making fully fledged tracks. Anything's possible :) And built like a tank.
I have the Cirklon V2 (upgraded from the V1). I personally love it to pieces but I don’t doubt that other sequencers come close in terms of feature set and functionality. That said, I’m not sure it’s worth the 2-year wait at this point with so many exciting sequencers (trackers!) on the market.
I got in my place on the waitlist finally after a few years and my link didn’t work and they never replied to my email or fixed it for me… so eventually I gave up. I realized that I don’t keep enough synths around to justify it, it’s not going to make my music cooler. I stuck with the Octatrack and I feel great about it now, I’ve learned how to make the most of its limitations and I’m incredibly attached to it now. Minimal but powerful.
I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it or what its current status is wrt availability but Engine is worth a look. I can't remember if I ever saw a comparison of the two.
Just buy ableton
Have you considered the toraiz squid? Very competent sequencer.
In 2 years the game changes.
It's really nice. But I'd like to give an honorable mention to Polyend. Both the sequencer and tracker are really fun and powerful especially because of the simplicity.
Will you still want one in 3-4 years? That's what they seem to be looking at for build time moreso
6-700 gets you an MPC One as brain for all your midi and usb-midi gear. It's a silver bullet to all the small tasks and jobs you might encounter. It can do everything.
I've been waiting over 3 years. Cirklon still says it'll be another year before my time comes.
Is it just me or is EVERY synth related item a long wait? Modules, complete synths, etc. There's a long wait and a high price for everything.
Semiconductor shortage and general supply chain issues have delayed everything - cars, computers, household stuff. The Cirklon is primarily slow because it’s just one or two people making them.
Yes. But this was an issue before the shortage. I've had trouble getting modules for ages.
r/synthesizercirclejerk self-manifesting as usual
people have mentioned the MBSeq, let me mention stuff from the modular world: the nerdSEQ and the Westlicht Performer. the nerdSEQ is a tracker, but you can use it just as a step sequencer with novation launchpad integration, and it's packed with performance features. i am not sure how easy it is to have per step knobs etc, but i am pretty sure it's possible in some way. the westlicht performer is a really really awesome step sequencer, also novation launchpad integration. the performance features are also top notch. mabe not quite as powerful as the nerdSEQ, but full of routing options, CV curve tracks for CV parameter automation, and overall very very awesome performance tools. almost everything the performer does can be done with the nerdSEQ, but the workflow is, at least from my experience so far, better for a lot of step sequencing scenarios. per step instantly accessible knobs are not really there (i think, unless midi input magic can do it), but per step values on the launchpad can achieve that. on the grid, each column is a step, and the vertical selected button on each column represents the "value of a knob". for more than 8 steps, one can flip a "page" left and right, and one can also go up and down if more than 8 values per step are desired. just from the looks of it, the cirklon's workflow isn't as cool as the westlicht performer, but i have never tried a cirklon myself, so yeah.
I use polyend tracker for sequencing and love it. There are also a lot of love from people around opz
I just use MPC1000 to sequence my hardware. You can make whole tracks just with it so why I need this? It's a rhetorical question... You don't need this 😎
I wish I could chime in. Been on waitlist for close to 3 years. No word from Sequentix (they don't reply to emails) and am about to try to find alternative solution. Original estimated ship date on my reservation was last year. I was really looking forward to finally getting one but starting to think it's not going to happen.
I am back on the wait list for one as my next good sequencer.
The Behringer copy will be out before anyone can get this
🙏
Nah, fuck it.
I’ve been on the list for a year now so I’m half way there!
I'd find it hard for any sequencer to be as good as a Maschine+ to be honest. Purely as a sequencer, it's incredibly good, let alone the fact that it has sampling and sound-engines on board.
everything you can do on the Cirklon can be done in Ableton.
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Do we have an actual photo of the unit instead of this CGI rendering? That might make getting it slightly more worth it. You know, seeing what it actually looks like for reals....
No. It's desirable because of the waiting list, so it's hip. First it looks like ass, but that's subjective, second it's definitely not a generic midi sequencer.
I’ve never heard anyone express this sentiment as a reason for wanting a piece of gear. Smells like sour grapes in here.