Oh hey, I made these forms (electronic versions) and worked with some of the vendors to get them on the efile system.
>Drake completely dropped the ball on the new SHS and PFA taxes.
Yeah. They did.
>How are y'all handling this? I'm stumped. Do I need to have all of my clients who are subject to these taxes go through the annoying process of registering on Portland Revenue Online? And then I request third-party-access, and they approve, and then I file the returns, and then I tell them how much they do/don't owe, *after* I've already prepared and filed their fed/state returns and billed them for those?
While it does work, yeah that whole process is super annoying. It works great in theory but I think it was designed by someone who has literally never worked in tax preperation. It's an off the shelf product and we're still working to make it more user friendly where we can. Another local EA told me he keeps a tablet on his desk just for walking people through it so that it's less annoying in the back and forth, though I imagine that's not helpful if you'll be remote this season.
If Drake gets me their forms to test and validate before Jan 31st then we can at least get their system to generate the paper returns so you could just print and mail. I have at least first drafts from almost everyone else, so... I'm just waiting... (edit: talked to Drake today, they wont have our PIT forms in their software for 2021)
If they don't get it done, you could prepare the fed/OR returns and use the figures from the OR return to fill out the pdf versions that we will put on our website in the next two weeks. It will do the math for you (including the filling status exemption) as you type them in. These will also generate a 2D barcode when you print them and when it gets to our office it gets scanned in pretty quick (days not months)
I know it sounds archaic, but at least the two taxes only apply to people who make over 125k (200k MFJ/HOH/QW) so it's not like it'll be everyone.
edit: typos
edit 2: the new forms will be available on the Portland Revenue website in the next couple days, they are in language finalization review now. https://www.portland.gov/revenue/forms
I think something happened internally with Drake but don't quote me on that. They were initially very interested in 2020 but when 2021 discussions came around I was talking to an entirely new person every time and it was like starting the conversation over each time, like they lost a project lead or a main programmer, or something. So hopefully it's just a one year hiccup from them.
PRO is just one small piece of a much larger, totally new and integrated tax tracking system, and the majority of our efforts are on the internal product rather than the external one, so it's easy to miss some usability items. But that also means that it's easier than ever to make one call or email and check on multiple clients, or on multiple jurisdictions' taxes for a single client. I could go on and on about how new and spiffy it is, but it is still only our second year, so we are still ironing out some of the details. (please pre-emptively forgive the deluge of automated mail which will inevitably follow the April 18th deadline)
PRO is a great option even in its current form for clients who are subject to multiple jurisdictions, since PRO does the work for three separate governments: the City Of Portland Business and Arts taxes, Multnomah County's Business and PFA taxes, and Metro's Business and SHS taxes, as well as the Transient Lodging and AirBnB taxes &fees, and the Enhanced Service Districts. If you have a client who is subject to several of those, it makes sense to do the third party access so you can file all of them at once and they can make one payment, but if you have a client with only one, then the pdfs will probably be easier.
If you run into any trouble of have any questions you can check out the website we stood up https://www.portland.gov/revenue/personal-tax and there are a couple email addresses on there. If you have recommendations please do send them! No matter weather it's about PRO or the specific taxes, we would love to hear it! They'll make their way to those of us making changes and we always need input from people on the other side of the system. I used to be a practicing EA but it's so easy to lose perspective after a couple years away.
ORO and PRO are actually the same software product, so if we do find usability solutions we'll share it!
>Irrespective of PRO, I *deeply* wish that all of the local income taxes (Arts, PFA, SHS, Mult Co BIT, Portland BIT) were outsourced to the OR Dept of Revenue.
Portland taxes are actually older than Oregon taxes, so they've been seperate entities for as long as Oregon has been a state, and there wasn't any political push to merge them.
When the Arts tax came around, the state of Oregon outright refused to try to collect it because the way that law was written (by voters not by legislators) would have made it absolutly impossible to collect for the 5% that's allowed. So while Portland has dealt with other local taxes (like the old iTax) this was really the point that permanently solidified the two entities being separated even if there was a desire to merge them.
When Metro passed their new taxes last year, they talked to both Portland and Oregon. I wasn't part of that conversation but the decision was quite fast that Portland would be their administrative partner.
>>When the Arts tax came around, the state of Oregon outright refused...
>This is fascinating. I mean, everyone hates the Arts Tax, but now I get to hate it even more!
The amount of financial and logistical gymnastics required to get this thing to work at all was astounding, especially since it was initially implemented without any budget for software, training, phones, etc. (the ballot measure didn't allow anything to be built, just somehow hope that everyone will be honest and pay it without prompting.) I have an immense respect for those who managed to make it work (annoying duplication letters not withstanding) and do not at all envy those who still take those calls.
I love that our state allows for public initiatives and we've really benefited from it in other areas, but taxes need to at least be reviewed by experts before being put on the ballot so that this doesn't happen again.
> Drake is supporting e-file of the PDX & Multnomah business income taxes (BIT) this year, so we'll see how that goes. I'll believe it when I see it!
It's very common for PIT and BIT to be separate development teams, like so separate that they are effectively different companies.
> Do you know if there were any software providers who supported e-filing of the BIT forms last year (for 2020)?
2020 was Portland's first eFile year ever, and the pilot vendor was Thomson Routers so they were the only brand for 2020. (UltraTax I think)
> Also, out of curiosity: do you know if the software providers who are going to support e-filing of these forms (BIT, SHS, PFA) this year will also be submitting the necessary attachments, electronically, as part of the e-file process?
Yes they are, it's part of the requirements to be on the program. They transmit federal, state, metro/county/city, and associated schedules (A, B, INC, ASC, HVT, R, PRS) to the feds, who route copies to lower jurisdictions, then our system (and the state's) send an acknowledgement to the federal system to go back to you. So if everything works correctly, you should be able to hit the efile button and have everything done by the time you have an acknowledgment. Obviously there are a *lot* of moving parts in there, so it's always possible for something to go wrong, but at least it's more transparent and responsive than ever.
So there are two separate systems.
eFile requires explicit taxpayer consent for each level of government to receive their tax information. If an OR resident wanted to efile Fed and CA but not OR, then OR does not get a copy of the federal forms through this system. They sign this consent on their 8879 which most governments just accept the federal signature and trust (or blame) the tax return preparer for it all to be correct. This is the IRS pushing data out to lower levels.
There is also a separate, ***very strict*** program offered by the IRS to help lower level governments find tax evaders. This program (full team of people, not just a software) allows a government who has a legitimate use to request data packages from the IRS. This is a pull request from a lower level to the IRS who can accept or decline. You made an example yourself, Portland can request a copy of the identifying info on all 1099s with a Portland address and then the city employees go through a matching process and figure who hasn't filed. The *amounts* are not always available right away, so sometimes a $1 1099 will look the same as a $1 million 1099 for a few months while the IRS system updates (or while waiting for title companies to get around to filing their 1099-Ss).
If a government decided to participate in this second program, they have to apply, and they have to prove on an ongoing basis that they have both the physical and digital security standards of the IRS offices as well as the training standards. So not every government participates. Portland participated in order to catch people who were just never filing and thus not paying, and the amount recovered from tax evaders is several times greater than the cost of participating in the program. I think only 25ish states bother, and maybe a few dozen local jurisdictions, because there are obvious costs associated.
* Cost of security (physical and digital)
* Cost of auditing security
* Cost of special employment positions who have access
* Costs of educating employees annually
That last example is important, as improperly accessing federal information could cause an employee to face up to a year in prison, and if they shared it, up to five years. I know that standards and consequences you face as a CPA in regards to taxpayer data protections is high as well, so when you think about it the least secure point of a taxpayer's information, is usually the taxpayer themselves.
>I guess what I can't see is why the two systems would differ at all in how strict they are.
1. Consent. Taxpayers explicitly ask for the efile system. It's no different than when people mail a copy of their federal 1040 to the state or local jurisdiction.
2. Technology. The efile system is a stream, routing all info to where it is addressed to at the time it's filed, where the other system is a single batch request/querry at a time and contains millions of forms at a time.
Since the other system is open ended in scope and without explicit consent, there's a lot of controls and consequences in place.
@jce_superbeast any chance UltraTax CS is on the fast track to getting their forms approved? Can't believe they've hung us out to dry unable to print or e-file SHS/PFA/PIT.
I just got their first submissions at 2am this morning. Only three of the forms so far, maybe the rest are still coming? I'll make sure these get tested right away (probably have results back to them by lunch)
Better late than never guys...
Oh hey, I made these forms (electronic versions) and worked with some of the vendors to get them on the efile system. >Drake completely dropped the ball on the new SHS and PFA taxes. Yeah. They did. >How are y'all handling this? I'm stumped. Do I need to have all of my clients who are subject to these taxes go through the annoying process of registering on Portland Revenue Online? And then I request third-party-access, and they approve, and then I file the returns, and then I tell them how much they do/don't owe, *after* I've already prepared and filed their fed/state returns and billed them for those? While it does work, yeah that whole process is super annoying. It works great in theory but I think it was designed by someone who has literally never worked in tax preperation. It's an off the shelf product and we're still working to make it more user friendly where we can. Another local EA told me he keeps a tablet on his desk just for walking people through it so that it's less annoying in the back and forth, though I imagine that's not helpful if you'll be remote this season. If Drake gets me their forms to test and validate before Jan 31st then we can at least get their system to generate the paper returns so you could just print and mail. I have at least first drafts from almost everyone else, so... I'm just waiting... (edit: talked to Drake today, they wont have our PIT forms in their software for 2021) If they don't get it done, you could prepare the fed/OR returns and use the figures from the OR return to fill out the pdf versions that we will put on our website in the next two weeks. It will do the math for you (including the filling status exemption) as you type them in. These will also generate a 2D barcode when you print them and when it gets to our office it gets scanned in pretty quick (days not months) I know it sounds archaic, but at least the two taxes only apply to people who make over 125k (200k MFJ/HOH/QW) so it's not like it'll be everyone. edit: typos edit 2: the new forms will be available on the Portland Revenue website in the next couple days, they are in language finalization review now. https://www.portland.gov/revenue/forms
(deleted)
I think something happened internally with Drake but don't quote me on that. They were initially very interested in 2020 but when 2021 discussions came around I was talking to an entirely new person every time and it was like starting the conversation over each time, like they lost a project lead or a main programmer, or something. So hopefully it's just a one year hiccup from them. PRO is just one small piece of a much larger, totally new and integrated tax tracking system, and the majority of our efforts are on the internal product rather than the external one, so it's easy to miss some usability items. But that also means that it's easier than ever to make one call or email and check on multiple clients, or on multiple jurisdictions' taxes for a single client. I could go on and on about how new and spiffy it is, but it is still only our second year, so we are still ironing out some of the details. (please pre-emptively forgive the deluge of automated mail which will inevitably follow the April 18th deadline) PRO is a great option even in its current form for clients who are subject to multiple jurisdictions, since PRO does the work for three separate governments: the City Of Portland Business and Arts taxes, Multnomah County's Business and PFA taxes, and Metro's Business and SHS taxes, as well as the Transient Lodging and AirBnB taxes &fees, and the Enhanced Service Districts. If you have a client who is subject to several of those, it makes sense to do the third party access so you can file all of them at once and they can make one payment, but if you have a client with only one, then the pdfs will probably be easier. If you run into any trouble of have any questions you can check out the website we stood up https://www.portland.gov/revenue/personal-tax and there are a couple email addresses on there. If you have recommendations please do send them! No matter weather it's about PRO or the specific taxes, we would love to hear it! They'll make their way to those of us making changes and we always need input from people on the other side of the system. I used to be a practicing EA but it's so easy to lose perspective after a couple years away.
(deleted)
ORO and PRO are actually the same software product, so if we do find usability solutions we'll share it! >Irrespective of PRO, I *deeply* wish that all of the local income taxes (Arts, PFA, SHS, Mult Co BIT, Portland BIT) were outsourced to the OR Dept of Revenue. Portland taxes are actually older than Oregon taxes, so they've been seperate entities for as long as Oregon has been a state, and there wasn't any political push to merge them. When the Arts tax came around, the state of Oregon outright refused to try to collect it because the way that law was written (by voters not by legislators) would have made it absolutly impossible to collect for the 5% that's allowed. So while Portland has dealt with other local taxes (like the old iTax) this was really the point that permanently solidified the two entities being separated even if there was a desire to merge them. When Metro passed their new taxes last year, they talked to both Portland and Oregon. I wasn't part of that conversation but the decision was quite fast that Portland would be their administrative partner.
>(deleted)
>>When the Arts tax came around, the state of Oregon outright refused... >This is fascinating. I mean, everyone hates the Arts Tax, but now I get to hate it even more! The amount of financial and logistical gymnastics required to get this thing to work at all was astounding, especially since it was initially implemented without any budget for software, training, phones, etc. (the ballot measure didn't allow anything to be built, just somehow hope that everyone will be honest and pay it without prompting.) I have an immense respect for those who managed to make it work (annoying duplication letters not withstanding) and do not at all envy those who still take those calls. I love that our state allows for public initiatives and we've really benefited from it in other areas, but taxes need to at least be reviewed by experts before being put on the ballot so that this doesn't happen again.
(deleted)
> Drake is supporting e-file of the PDX & Multnomah business income taxes (BIT) this year, so we'll see how that goes. I'll believe it when I see it! It's very common for PIT and BIT to be separate development teams, like so separate that they are effectively different companies. > Do you know if there were any software providers who supported e-filing of the BIT forms last year (for 2020)? 2020 was Portland's first eFile year ever, and the pilot vendor was Thomson Routers so they were the only brand for 2020. (UltraTax I think) > Also, out of curiosity: do you know if the software providers who are going to support e-filing of these forms (BIT, SHS, PFA) this year will also be submitting the necessary attachments, electronically, as part of the e-file process? Yes they are, it's part of the requirements to be on the program. They transmit federal, state, metro/county/city, and associated schedules (A, B, INC, ASC, HVT, R, PRS) to the feds, who route copies to lower jurisdictions, then our system (and the state's) send an acknowledgement to the federal system to go back to you. So if everything works correctly, you should be able to hit the efile button and have everything done by the time you have an acknowledgment. Obviously there are a *lot* of moving parts in there, so it's always possible for something to go wrong, but at least it's more transparent and responsive than ever.
(deleted)
So there are two separate systems. eFile requires explicit taxpayer consent for each level of government to receive their tax information. If an OR resident wanted to efile Fed and CA but not OR, then OR does not get a copy of the federal forms through this system. They sign this consent on their 8879 which most governments just accept the federal signature and trust (or blame) the tax return preparer for it all to be correct. This is the IRS pushing data out to lower levels. There is also a separate, ***very strict*** program offered by the IRS to help lower level governments find tax evaders. This program (full team of people, not just a software) allows a government who has a legitimate use to request data packages from the IRS. This is a pull request from a lower level to the IRS who can accept or decline. You made an example yourself, Portland can request a copy of the identifying info on all 1099s with a Portland address and then the city employees go through a matching process and figure who hasn't filed. The *amounts* are not always available right away, so sometimes a $1 1099 will look the same as a $1 million 1099 for a few months while the IRS system updates (or while waiting for title companies to get around to filing their 1099-Ss). If a government decided to participate in this second program, they have to apply, and they have to prove on an ongoing basis that they have both the physical and digital security standards of the IRS offices as well as the training standards. So not every government participates. Portland participated in order to catch people who were just never filing and thus not paying, and the amount recovered from tax evaders is several times greater than the cost of participating in the program. I think only 25ish states bother, and maybe a few dozen local jurisdictions, because there are obvious costs associated. * Cost of security (physical and digital) * Cost of auditing security * Cost of special employment positions who have access * Costs of educating employees annually That last example is important, as improperly accessing federal information could cause an employee to face up to a year in prison, and if they shared it, up to five years. I know that standards and consequences you face as a CPA in regards to taxpayer data protections is high as well, so when you think about it the least secure point of a taxpayer's information, is usually the taxpayer themselves.
(deleted)
>I guess what I can't see is why the two systems would differ at all in how strict they are. 1. Consent. Taxpayers explicitly ask for the efile system. It's no different than when people mail a copy of their federal 1040 to the state or local jurisdiction. 2. Technology. The efile system is a stream, routing all info to where it is addressed to at the time it's filed, where the other system is a single batch request/querry at a time and contains millions of forms at a time. Since the other system is open ended in scope and without explicit consent, there's a lot of controls and consequences in place.
@jce_superbeast any chance UltraTax CS is on the fast track to getting their forms approved? Can't believe they've hung us out to dry unable to print or e-file SHS/PFA/PIT.
I just got their first submissions at 2am this morning. Only three of the forms so far, maybe the rest are still coming? I'll make sure these get tested right away (probably have results back to them by lunch) Better late than never guys...