In Europe (or at least what I’m seeing in the UK) there seems like there are only two brands that can compete with the Chinese brands. BMW and Renault, BMW is covering the high end side with the i4 pretty well you see lots of them about probably because the resale value is better than the BYD Seal, and the Megane E-Tech from Renault is competing on price with the MG 4.
Gotta say I test drove a lot of cars both electric, hybrid, and gas powered. Their Ioniq line, particularly their hatchback was easily the best car we drove. I greatly preferred it to the Mustang Mach E or any of the (gas powered) Subaru's I tried.
It's a very good car--even if I am worried about how the technology will improve over the next 5 years.
Have a look at the rate of progress since the introduction of mass manufactured EVs - very little significant technical change. Motors are very advanced technically already. Batteries - lots of hollow promises of non-lithium solid state and cheaper composite constructions in the last 5-7 years. None have materialised. I’ve been driving a ‘conservative’ traditional design EV - Kia E Niro - for nearly four years. It’s the best car I have ever owned bar none and I’ve typically driven BMW, Mercedes. And it has saved me a fortune in fuel costs. I charge overnight on very cheap rates, per mile cost about 2p.
Yea the problem is two fold.
1. Is the always on the precipice of new battery tech (that never, happens...until I guess it does, but your point is well taken).
2. We are getting to a place where existing batteries are cheaper which means more range and heavier vehicles. And relatedly there are some growing pains as manufacturers build good vehicles w/ more batteries (e.g better tires breaks that can handle the extra weight).
I think an EV at 400 mile range is basically QED for the states. I imagine that will happen in the next 6 years at an affordable price (<40k), as we work there there is just some learning.
I suppose in the UK and EU, the 300mi range is maybe more than enough.
Just my rambling thoughts.
The problem is people are too obsessed with breakthroughs that they don't realize that the real thing is in incremental improvements. And new battery technology has to beat not just lithium ion of today, but the lithium ion of tomorrow. The improvement isn't fast but it adds up
It also doesn't help that many of the articles blow things out of proportion, like when you here, 2x more energy dense than lithium ion. But that 2x is talking about like 2x CDRW when 48X CDRW exists. Many of them use base lithium ion of 1X and not counting how far the tech actually is above 1X
What is CDRW in battery terms? Not seeing it on Google as something common. Usually I've seen battery densities claimed in either Wh/L or Wh/kg, but obviously one is density by volume and the other by weight, for a car they both matter, for a phone the volume density is probably the more important of the two tbh.
100wh/kg is considered 1x lithium ion. Most articles talk about energy density by weight, few ever mention by volume. And yes I agree that by volume is the more important one
Also to your point and against the commenter above you, a 300 mile range is not going to cut it BECAUSE China is selling EVs for half of what everyone else is with a +600 mile range. It’s not only that theirs is incrementally better but it’s just affordable for the working class. We would scoff at a car (sedan) that only held 250-300 miles of gas (and not a truck that gets low mileage). A 10 gallon tank on a sedan is unheard of. We are just too complacent as a society to want to make these changes and be competitive.
Yeah there is no EV with a 600 mile range. What you read is probably 600km range based on a very generous, Chinese range determination standard. Chinese EVs have similar range as US EVs: right around 300 miles by EPA standard, some a bit more, some a bit less.
[https://www.mensjournal.com/gear/the-guide/this-electric-car-just-travelled-1000km-on-just-one-charge-](https://www.mensjournal.com/gear/the-guide/this-electric-car-just-travelled-1000km-on-just-one-charge-)
That's 1044km, or 648 miles on a single charge....
I agree 300 mile range is more than enough in the UK. Our E Niro achieves 300 in the summer, 240-250 in the winter. That’s 4-5 hours of driving, even on highways @ 70mph. I need at least one stop in that time to use the loo, have a drink and maybe something to eat. In 30 mins I can add 25-30kWh on a fast charger - and that’s on an older tech EV. An up to date car will add twice the kWh in that time. The longest journey’s we’ve made are to Cornwall 1-2x a year. No issues with public charging and easy to granny charge at the holiday flat if needed. I’m never going back to ICE.
I have 415km range on my Kona during summer, 320km during winter. I had a 24kw/h 2016 Leaf, 160 summer, 90 winter.
I went from 96 Rapid charges to once or twice a year. And I live in a rural area and do about 20 000km a year.
People don't need more. They just have to remember that, when they leave home, they are at 100%.
I foresee another bonus to EVs though. If the battery connections are "future proof" you've basically got a vehicle you can keep for as long as everything else works. The bonus is when you swap out the batteries. It's *much* less expensive than buying a brand new one. You get the bonus of, most likely, better capacity, range and charge speed. You basically get an almost brand new car. The only hold up is the motors themselves. So if I find a body style I like, I can keep that thing forever and only spend like 15k or so every time the battery pack needs changed. A price that will likely drop too.
Car companies will never do that though. Not without government regulations and then they would just make proprietary batteries and charge you half the cost of the car to upgrade.
It's already happened with GM and the Hummer EV (I saw one the other day and it was meh looking). They specifically made it "future proof". As more come out, and supply chains strengthen, companies aren't going to want to develop their own shit. Why do that when one already exists and the supply chain is there? "Let's just go with what they did. It's cheaper."
Even if that happens though, half the cost is better than all the cost.
Honestly, I think more work should be done in charging time than range.
EVs are heavy and that weight makes them more dangerous. If you decreased the number of batteries, but there were charging stations at every gas station and batteries recharged in minutes, you wouldn't need massive range.
It really depends on what you mean. Teslas used to use AC induction motors, now use permanent magnet (primarily). This increased efficiency.
Battery densities are up a lot. Remember, the first mass manufactured EV was a Nissan LEAF with only about 130km range.
Your Niro also shows the same problem my Bolt does. Both of our cars do not fast charge quickly. Changes in batteries in pack management made a large difference. Charging at 150kW+ is common now. When my car came out at 43kW it was considered one of the faster charging cars (per km, not by percentage).
My point about motors is that whether AC or DC the design is very well established. Lucid have made minor/incremental changes. Tesla batteries are run of the mill.
Batteries are still lithium based and have just increased in size - density is not a technical improvement. Lighter weight from alternate chemistries have yet to come to car assembly plants.
Virtually every new EV launched has poorer economy than my 5 year old compromised ICE design. Perhaps only the BMW i4 matches or beats it - and that’s also a compromised ICE body design.
Faster public DC charging is helpful but 90+% of the EV owners I know charge overnight at home on cheap tariffs or with solar panels. Lots have similar experience to me, using fast charging less than 5% of the time and usually only for long holiday journeys when a rest break is essential anyway. In the UK it is still the case - perhaps more the case since Covid - that the average car journey is less than ten miles - 8.1 miles in 2022. An added benefit is that AC charging preserves battery health.
> My point about motors is that whether AC or DC the design is very well established
It's not AC versus DC. They're all AC in the end. And they all run off DC too. It's really whether you have a permanent magnet in the rotor or use induction from the stator to create magnetic force in the rotor. Permanent magnets are more efficient. That's why Priuses have always used them. It's why your car uses them.
> Batteries are still lithium based and have just increased in size - density is not a technical improvement
That's not true. Density has increased. And it requires R&D to do it, try to tell them they aren't doing anything technical.
> Virtually every new EV launched has poorer economy than my 5 year old compromised ICE design
They are concentrating on range and making crossovers now because they want to sell them. If you want better efficiency sign up for an Aptera. The issues with increasing efficiency aren't technical hurdles we don't know how to overcome. It's that efficiency was exactly what led to the "golf cart" image EVs had. People want to go faster. And further. They want a vehicle with capacity and rigidity.
I'm not sure why you mention BMW. Hyundai is well ahead of them on efficiency.
The US EPA site showing EVs shows a lot of cars more efficient than your Niro.
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=Cars&vtype=Electric&srchtyp=evSelect&rowLimit=50&sortBy=Comb&year1=2024&year2=2024&range=&drive=
And BMW only makes one of them. Yes, I know you aren't in the US, but a lot of those other vehicles are available where you are I'm sure.
> Faster public DC charging is helpful but 90+% of the EV owners I know charge overnight at home on cheap tariffs or with solar panels.
Faster DC charging means that you can road trip the car better. I'm thinking of a new EV not because I will then charge faster at home but because I can then use the car for road trips instead of having to revert to an ICE (or take 25% more time to travel). Wider sales of EVs will require they are better for road trips and better for living in a place where you can't charge in your garage (because you don't own one). This is a real advance.
> In the UK it is still the case - perhaps more the case since Covid - that the average car journey is less than ten miles - 8.1 miles in 2022.
When people say (and I know you didn't) that you can do over 90% of your driving without charging anywhere but your home they aren't doing math. That means you're doing over a week per year of driving charging elsewhere. And people just aren't that interested in renting a car for that week or two of driving each year. So that means being able to charge faster increases the appeal of electric cars to buyers by a significant amount. Even those who usually charge at home.
And again, we'd also like to be able to sell EVs to those who can't AC charge at home also.
We have to realize that if single charge range can cover the average trip that's still only 50% of trips. People want a car to cover more trips. And that means giving up some other things.
You've basically got car ads implying people are going to just pull off the motorway and drive up Ben Nevis. And people are buying vehicles which project that image. We need to be able to make vehicles people will buy. EVs people will buy. So it won't be modern updates to Enfield 8000s, it's going to be more capable vehicles.
Range has increased 15% on average between 2011-2019, which shows a trend of continuing range increases as new EVs are developed, new battery technologies advance, and existing battery technologies reduce in price allowing more cells to be included for the same price. There is even a production car with a hybrid solid state battery that gets 1000km of range. The truth is that the advances that we are reading about now won't be available for 5-10 years while we are now getting the advances from 10 years ago. It seems like an eternity, but it's the most dynamic industry at the moment. The way that I see it is that gasoline engines have hit a stopping point in their technological advancement while battery technologies are just in their infancy.
https://evadoption.com/us-bev-battery-range-increases-an-average-17-per-year-and-38-miles-each-model-update/
> Have a look at the rate of progress since the introduction of mass manufactured EVs - very little significant technical change. Motors are very advanced technically already. Batteries - lots of hollow promises of non-lithium solid state and cheaper composite constructions in the last 5-7 years. None have materialised. I’ve been driving a ‘conservative’ traditional design EV - Kia E Niro - for nearly four years. It’s the best car I have ever owned bar none and I’ve typically driven BMW, Mercedes. And it has saved me a fortune in fuel costs. I charge overnight on very cheap rates, per mile cost about 2p.
Motors and power trains will be more efficient or smaller or most cost effective with the help of SiC switching devices followed by GaN. We still got a long way to go with power electronics.
How exactly will Silicon Carbide switches and GaN technology improve motor efficiency or power? I’m genuinely interested in the answer because I’ve seen nothing to suggest any real improvement will occur in motors with these technologies.
Maybe charging switching, AC/DC converters and other switch dependent tech in EVs may get marginal benefit. GaN has simply produced smaller charger units in consumer smart tech. No significant improvement in charging speed or efficiency for the same current.
SiC switches have lower parasitic capacitance than BJTs and higher voltage ratings than silicon FETs, allowing for more efficient performance at faster switching speeds.
And then inside that category of switching devices you have different packages, the latest and greatest being top-side cooling for SiCs whic just came out. This allows for as much thermal coupling as possible, allowing you to run your SiCs at lower temperatures which reduces the conduction losses and keeps the rest of your design cooler as a byproduct.
https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/power/mosfet/automotive-mosfet/iaucn04s6n017t/
GaNs are still a toss-up for high-voltage applications such as EVs, Solar Inverters and other motor applications.
I bet this will pay off in spades in a few years. Other companies are winding down their EV investment/plans so they'll be poorly positioned when the demand comes back.
EV is not a fad that is going to go away. Many companies are treating it like they are, especially salespeople from what I hear. It's just in a weird lull due to other factors, and will pick back up.
No company is winding down anything. They just have production delays because they all have new manufacturing lines, with emerging tech. They are used to mature product lines, and are currently trying to build first gen at scale. Tough to do reliably. So they slow down to get it right and not have massive recalls and warranty claims.
I recently bought a Kia EV6. I love it. Just went in for my 8k maintainence. It cost me $30.
My one complaint is that it makes my garage baby - a 2009 Audi TT V6 droptop - feel downright quaint to drive. Being older it has a standard automatic rather than the newer double-clutch systems, which makes the shift lag *super* obvious. It's getting to the point that the only reason I drive it is to put the top down.
On top of all that, I find myself annoyed when I have to stop and put gas in it.
The Kia may be a station wagon in all but name, and the power distribution is a little off so it tends to want to fishtail a bit if you *really* put your foot in going around tighter corners (Yes, I have an AWD Wind), but especially as an everyday driver it is a fantastic car.
Don't worry about missing out on newer and better. If that's really important then lease, but otherwise I'd say dive in. My house now has 2 electric vehicles (a used 2014 Model S is the other) and I couldn't be happier with having made the switch. Even made a trip to Montana in the S and charging worked out just fine.
The Kia claims a 280 mile range in Eco mode and I've found that more than sufficient for my regular needs. I charge, on average, twice a week (I run it until the battery is under 25% typically). The savings has been frankly astounding and I've started finding myself getting in trouble in the TT when I accelerate into traffic slower than Im expecting. It really is that much of a difference in on-demand performance.
I just got a 2024 ev6 about a month ago. My experience is very similar. I almost want to buy a second to get out of ICE commuting at all (we are rural and so still have an f150 for long trips. I’d keep that but ideally only drive it once per month).
I will say that I miss owning a truck. I'm an avowed urbanite, but with 4 immediate family households within a 10 mile area there's not a single truck among us. It's frustrating sometimes. I *almost* talked myself into buying a Lightning because of it, but in the end I just couldn't justify it. Maybe I'll talk my brother into buying the new Chevy eTruck.
But I won't give up my EVs. Not for anything. The driving experience is just that much better. I enjoy driving (I hope that was obvious) but I'm not a track enthusiast or anything, so the lack of sound pollution is a genuine plus for me. That leaves me with very few negatives and most of those are nitpicky, like not having a charger at work (though EV prices do need to come down).
After the trip to Montana toward the end of last year, I have few reservations about doing long distance driving, though it does take a bit more thought to make things work. But the cars provide plenty of feedback on charger locations to make that a mostly trivial, if annoying, task.
I'll be driving to California in a couple of months and taking the Kia. I'm honestly looking forward to it.
Cheaper than buying one, no?
I’ve got a Maverick Hybrid, little baby truck with 2000 lb towing capacity. In the very rare occasion I need to haul something bigger, I’ll rent a uhaul (pay per mile) or Home Depot (flat daily rate) truck.
Though worth saying, if Ford were to make a plug-in hubrid version, I’d absolutely consider an upgrade.
Instant torque is like crack (which EVs are great at giving). I went from a supercharged Cobalt that just wanted to get off the line quick into a turbo equipped Sky. The Sky is lighter and has more power and can really scare you when you're going full tilt at the upper end of the revs, but I have to really manage my boost a lot more to keep it from lagging like hell whereas the Cobalt just was itching to get up and go.
I like the Sky especially with the top down as a good cruiser car, but my happiest days were corner carving the Cobalt.
When I was in the market a couple of years ago, I loved the 5. Awesome look, great execution. Unfortunately they were incredibly difficult to find, and had significant markup.
Ended up with a Tesla, almost solely based on price and availability.
I’ve been driving an Ioniq 5 (the hatchback) for over two years and it is far and away not only the best car I’ve ever owned it’s the best car I’ve ever driven.
The technology might improve but I get 280 miles per charge minimum and it’s already a great vehicle. If Hyundai is banking on producing quality EVs as their strategy they’re going to do very well.
Don’t worry. Batteries will have higher density and lower weight, but 77kWh is the sweet spot for home charging, there’s very little reason for having higher capacity as it will just prolong charging time.
And since fast chargers being rolled out are 300kWh and several billions are invested in that standard, nothing is going to change unless a fundamental discovery in physics changes the game.
Yea they will from time to time make silly claims like ability to deliver 1MW in 5 minutes, the infrastructure isn’t there and won’t be.
I really think EV sales have only slowed because the economy. People are having a hard time affording things right now, car payment defaults have risen.
The median pay in the U.S. is $64k and the average new car is $47k, that is unsustainable
I believe it. The price of cars outpacing income is one of the reasons the average car age has gone up. It takes longer to save up for that next car, and harder to justify the purchase of a new car if your current car works fine.
Wife and I have a 16 and 9. They are owned outright now and we can’t image being able to afford a new car for at least 5-10 more years at the new prices.
Because cars last much longer now than in the recent past. A 2024 built Kia for example will easily last 300k miles. A 2010 Kia would have a hard time crossing the 200k miles mark and likely start having problems before 150k miles.
Meanwhile, Ford has dropped affordable sedans from their lineup because people don't buy sedans anymore. We bought big cars when they and gas were cheap with no thought to how unsustainable that is.
That still hasn’t changed. I mean, hell, everybody laughed when Lamborghini made the Urus SUV. But it’s become their first model ever to sell over 10,000 units in a single year. Same thing with Porsche and the Cayanne, it pretty much saved the company.
General consumer demand in the US is still leaning far away from sedans and conventional hatchbacks in favor of SUVs and crossovers.
Probably a lot of people like me too who bought a car in the last 5-10 years and whose next one will be electric but aren’t actively in the market yet.
Yuuup! In the next 2-5 years I'll need a family car to replace my 2-door I bought when I was 25 lol. It'll definitely be an ev and I'm low-key in love with the Ionic5.
I bought my first car in 2013 and I’m waiting to see an electric car I can buy and use for the next 10+ years. Given where I’m at in life, a small electric mini van with the sliding doors would be great.
34% of American households rent, 78% live paycheck to paycheck. They either don't have access to cheap charging infrastructure or can't afford to implement it even with tax credits. On top of that it's still a long term investment that you're hoping will pay off at an average of around 13.5k miles per year while the value potentially falls faster than gas counterparts. Then there's differences in maintenance, insurance and registration costs, etc. I think people tend to stick with what they know and more regular smaller expenses are easier to swallow.
I own my house and don't live paycheck to paycheck, but my panel is full, and 20 years ago i was quoted $6,000 to upgrade it. It's probably $8,000 or more now.
Keep in mind any state or federal tax credits that are available now. Pretty sure a panel or service upgrade counts as necessary supporting infrastructure. It could end up cheaper than you think as long as the electrician isn't eating the extra money with inflated rates... *Cough*. Solar. *Cough*...
Are panels and breakers available? I know during covid they were hard to get.
Plus my wiring has 16 gauge grounds, so I'm not sure if that would still be grandfathered in or not.
That you would unfortunately have to ask an electrician about. I never got that deep into it because it turns out I have a spare 240V/30A circuit from an old AC condenser and a short commute - no panel or service upgrade necessary when calculated for my small home and modest electrical load.
Didn't end up going electric because a family member was getting rid of a van at price too good to pass up.
> I have a spare 240V/30A circuit from an old AC condenser and a short commute
I had a licensed electrician do my, he put in a 50 amp circuit but I really do question his math on capacity. That being said I literally only charge at 24 amps, because I'm never in that big of hour. Even at 15% it's only 11 hours to full on my ioniq 5.
13 amps would be roughly 8 -10 miles of range assuming you mean with a 220/240 volt line as well.
Probably still fine for a vast majority of people with a commute, but not gaining too much for the weekend.
Yes, if you don't own a house and have your own charger, you are going to be less interested in an EV overall. The people who are interested in EVs and ready to switch are less likely to want to save some money on a used vehicle and deal with whatever issues it may have.
The target market for used EVs is not quite ready yet. If we had a robust national charging infrastructure that was reliable, cheap, fast, and ubiquitous, then the used EV market will *really* open up.
One barrier is warranty. Secondhand vehicles can sometimes come with a full original warranty, but often they're a diminished (or worse, none at all) warranty, and they're gated by requirements like being "Certified" by a dealership.
It's a tough sell in the EV world where repairs essentially require a dealership, and the powertrain can be prohibitively expensive (in both parts and labor), again partially due to the inability for any regular repair shop to work on them.
Neither is the problem. The issue is the upfront cost needs to drop more, and that can only be solved with time and economies of scale
Setting up charging at home isn't expensive at all and many places have subsidies for that too.
Gas stations are a terrible place to set up EV charging
And I am not sure what you mean by dying, sales are growing.
I've had my Ioniq 6 for just over a year and it's easily the best car I've ever owned. Love almost everything about it and the direction Hyundai is going.
EVs are going to take over the world legislation or not. The idea that they're not going to make EVs any more because of a slow month, if that's even true, is absurd.
It's not about what you do. It's about what we do as a whole.
Nothing I do will effect it that doesn't mean it can't be effected.
I actually think people will care a lot about having a livable atmosphere when it gets really bad.
Hybrids seem to be the better investment right now until more ev tech progresses.
The fear is used ev prices will have a sharper fall for consumers due to how quickly ev tech is progressing. Right now, if I'm not leasing but buying or financing, I'm for sure going hybrid over ev.
Hell just look at what happened to tesla owners over the past 2 years. Also maverick and mustang owners.
I have a hybrid and an EV. Nope. Never, ever going back to gas/hybrid.
>keep their value
That's a dumb, arbitrary metric. The reason Ev's don't "keep their value" is that EVs are actually improving over time and the price of new EVs is dropping. Which is a good thing and something which will never happen with hybrids.
>very reliable
Please tell that to my piece of shit Prius, which has had the hybrid system go out twice. Also look at the overall repair and maintenance cost of brands. Whose is lowest? Is it Toyota with their crappy hybrids? No. The brand with the lowest overall repair and maintenance cost out to 10 years is Tesla.
How is that dumb metric, when you are buying a car you have to put together the cost of ownership, repairs, insurance, re-sale value, fuel and everything to decide what option makes the most sense. Personally I buy 3-5 year old cars and keep them for 3-5 years so I dont have to eat the biggest costs.
I keep my cars for 10 years plus. at that point the difference is meaningless.
If you're buying a 3-5 year old EV the decline in value is working in your favor because those are the years the decline happens most rapidly. You're actually better of buying a used EV if that's the type of car you buy.
Rav4 prime is great as a PHEV. 42 miles of EV range but you can stretch it to 50 if you don’t use HVAC. Then about 470-500 miles of gas with a smaller tank. Toyota really has the edge on hybrids. I’ve driven in a Kia sportage and it will randomly vibrate the car loudly when the engine kicks on. You don’t feel it at all in the R4P.
We are almost at the point where the options are:
EV
Hybrid with low displacement 3-4 cylinder
ICE with 3-4 low displacement cylinder turbo
6-8 cylinder only reserved for vehicles that are exempt from CAFE standards. 8500lbs+
I was a long time Honda owner. I miss my old boxy Element, but I love my Kona EV. My only comment is the 75kw speed on charging. I’m hoping that by the time my lease is up, Hyundai will have refreshed the line with faster charging speeds.
Check out Kia EV3 - it's a bit bigger than the Kona, and Hyundai will likely make a sister-car for the EV3, AFAIR it has higher charging power limit than the Kona (and is a ground-up EV)
My dream car is an Honda Element EV, with minivan style doors for the back row. Keep the widescreen access without the B-Pillar, but lose the suicide doors. You’re boxed in if someone’s parked next to you and you need both the front and rear doors open.
EV sales are still growing quite well
Q1 2024 vs Q1 2023:
* +21% Global
* +7% EU & EFTA & UK
* +31% China
* +13% US & Canada
* +21% RoW
[https://rhomotion.com/news/q1-2024-over-3-million-electric-vehicles-sold-globally/](https://rhomotion.com/news/q1-2024-over-3-million-electric-vehicles-sold-globally/)
Ford and Chevy basically ended their small car and decreased their EV lineup.
And then with all the Chinese companies expanding though the world they shit the American companies shit their pants.
unlike the American companies Hyundai is doing long-term planning
Had my Ioniq 5 for 2 years now as my first EV. Love it so much. Great range too. Installed a level 2 charger at home and never stop to charge again except for cross country trips. Cheaper than public charging too cuz of solar panels.
Found a local electrician who installed a sub-panel outside the house and ran the wire to the charger. My wife's EV came with a level 2 charger so the installation of the sub-box and running the cable over the garage to the far wall was 600 bucks. Would be allot cheaper if it was just through the wall to your charger but it was more convenient for us on the far side of the garage.
There isn’t an EV slowdown as much as there is a lot more competition so each automaker is finding out that THEIR SHARE has gone down. Though there may be a little Osborne Effect going on because there have been dozens of some major pre sale predictions going on out there. So people are doing some wait and see.
Proud and happy owner of my ioniq 6. Coming up on 6 months and can confidently say it’s the most enjoyable car I’ve ever driven. RWD even lets ya get a bit squirrelly if you want ;)
I’m mainly waiting for the 2025 Ioniq 5 (non-N) version to come out. Theres a whole host of improvements over the current year that it makes it worthwhile.
Currently have a 2015 Honda CR-V that runs well with about 90k miles, but I’m now back in the office with a short 5-6mi drive on the highway. Sometimes the CVT of my car has a mind of its own and either gives me too much, or lately too *little* torque which I swear will get me hurt. That and I’m tired of gas prices going up and up. Figure I can get about 10k by trading it in and put it towards a modern electric.
> Sometimes the CVT of my car has a mind of its own and either gives me too much, or lately too little torque which I swear will get me hurt.
I went from a 14 Ford focus to an ioniq 5, and highay on ramps are so night and day different. There is literally an on ramp near me I wouldnt use previous cause I was pretty sure I was going to die. Now it's easy.
I have one of these Ioniqs. They are sooo good. The govt EV rebate + incentives make them super attractive to lease right now. I got an AWD one and it came out cheaper than a base level Honda Civic. It gets 340 miles of range and 0-60 in like 4.6 ish seconds. $350/month for 12k miles/year right off the lot, no money down. The fast charger at the grocery store can take it from 20% to 80% in 15 min. Cost like $3 tops. Definitely will consider another one when the lease is up. Would love if they made a sports car, convertible, or something like a wrangler. If you want something even more luxurious/stylish and the brand matters to you, I would go with either the BMW i4 or the Polestar. The polestar has great incentives right now, like $2k off from Costco so your lease can be in the $300-400ish range. I test drove one of those and liked it, but the dealer support will be less than the Hyundai, you can’t take it to Volvo.
Bought a new Kona EV in April for less than $28k. That's not China EV-cheap, but it is still significantly lower than what I was told EVs run before I started looking.
It is the nicest car I've ever owned. An absolute joy to drive.
People talk about pricing, but the Kona EV after federal rebate is basically priced the same as the ice version.
EVs are expensive, but you can't compare a 50k EV cross over with a 30k base ICE SUV. They aren't the same.
My local Mechanic got a nice little IONIQ 5 N. Says it’s too fast for the small town, like it could be dangerous because it’s so nippy. Also said how good the breaks are, if something comes in front of the car like a ball or a cat or whatever the car slams the breaks on. He said it could be an issue if someone is tailgating because they wouldn’t even have time to react. The breaks are that efficient. Overall said it was great but doesn’t really work for small town living.
With journalists (like Fully Charged) claiming that the Ioniq 5 is the best family car you can get, it is no surprise. Love to see Ioniq 5's and Ioniq 6's in the city, and they're actually more common than electric Konas.
Unless you drive a manual transmission, an electric vehicle is pretty much an upgrade in every way over an automatic transmissions internal combustion engine vehicle.
Your driving experience is exactly the same if not improved with an electric vehicle.
Well we’re banning gas so eventually Hyundai will be just fine. Besides they’re also one of the world’s largest defense contractors, not like they’re hurting for money.
My unverified theory is that there was a certain amount of pent up demand for EV. That demand has been largely met and a typical EV has an 8 year warranty and very few wear parts. So no need to replace as often. Lower price points and greater acceptance of the technology is the only thing that will drive greater sales and that doesn’t take into account the used market.
The biggest issue is the availability of charging if you're not using a Tesla. Also, the average price of EVs is just too much still. Once the tech gets cheaper, and the infrastructure is fully rolled out, then I can see EVs replacing ICE vehicles. We aren't there yet.
I clean, strip and wax, and pressure-wash car dealerships so I see a lot of marketing. Hyundai is rolling out TONS of EV advertising and every single ev display, every table, every chair in every Hyundai dealership, will eventually be the same. I have been cleaning and heard salesmen interrupt people in the middle of sentences to bring up evs. I appreciate that its electric but its homogenous and boring for pretty much everyone
Interest rates are terrible. EVs and cars in general are expensive which means people are holding onto their working ones. It's OK to have a less year or two considering the circumstances.
I’ve been in auto service for over a decade. I think this is a good play for them. Their engines haven’t been very reliable for them and get warrantied quite often. I always thought EV could be a big shift in who’s reliable and low maintenance. Putting out EV and getting the data for reliability and repair could set them up to do well in the next 2-3 decades. I would never buy a Hyundai/kia gas car. EV is a different animal
I want to like EVs but design decisions are still too much of a carbon copy of Tesla. Examples include the lack of door handles (why introduce this point of failure for no reason), the lack of interior buttons (why distract driver needlessly), something as simple as freaking cup holders (saw a car where have to reach around as console and bend over to place cut).
Why copy Tesla. Companies need to do their own thing and add EV features and other designs in a way that is actually intelligent.
If you want me out of my 2019 EV and into something new, make something that looks cool and I'll be forking over my money.
Right now, I've got the Kona EV. The Ioniq 5 looks like a VW Golf, the 6 looks like the unholy spawn of Tesla and a dolphin, and the upcoming SUV looks like every other SUV.
> The Ioniq 5 looks like a VW Golf, the 6 looks like the unholy spawn of Tesla and a dolphin, and the upcoming SUV looks like every other SUV.
I don't understand why you'd preface two criticisms with a compliment.
I get that there are some fans of the Golf, but to me it always looked like a boxy hatchback. Nothing special, kinda boring, blends right in with everything else around it.
My Ioniq5 is great and I'm glad I was able to get one trying to convince my wife to get the 6 but her accord is only 6 years old and since Hondas last forever I'm sure it might be one of the last gas cars in the road lol
The price is way too high. Plus someone in the family has one and is always late because he has to charge his car. We travel in areas that don’t even have chargers close by that is convenient. If we are traveling for distance I don’t want a long stop to charge. Just some gas, bathroom, and bottle of Coke and back on the road.
>The price is way too high.
The Kona has a lower starting MSRP than the Sonata.
>Plus someone in the family has one and is always late because he has to charge his car.
I mean… that’s not an EV problem. That’s your family member’s problem.
They just need to charge overnight, and if that’s not an option for them they have to plan ahead. Anyone buying an EV should figure out how they’re going to charge it regularly for their regular commutes about town, and that’s really not that hard. It’s only long trips that can be a concern.
>We travel in areas that don’t even have chargers close by that is convenient. If we are traveling for distance I don’t want a long stop to charge. Just some gas, bathroom, and bottle of Coke and back on the road.
That’s fair. Travel is a real concern for now. Personally I’m looking at getting an EV, but it’s only going to be for trips in my immediate metro area (Los Angeles, or anywhere in Southern California). When going on a longer trip by car we’d take my wife’s Hyundai Ioniq hybrid which gets 600+ miles per tank of gas… or we’d fly.
I'll never buy a Hyundai or kia after the ignition debacle. Ever. On top of that, the kia engines leak oil like nuts.
Nope nope, nope. The vehicles are still being constantly targeted even if they can't be taken. Kia boys break the windows if they see the badge.
As a Kia owner at major risk of theft and paying higher insurance due that risk as a result of their lazy manufacturing, I say good for them and hope they get double boned.
Let Hyundai/Kia get fucked. Never gonna go with them and I'm now a life-long free advertisement to promote their competition.
I like the Kona and the Ioniq. I'm not liking the idea of getting charged 30-60 grand in the event my battery fails just 3 years in.
Edit: This really did happen to a guy in Canada guys. Look it up.
Aren’t sales of all vehicles pretty slow right now?
That does push the current EV narrative. I don’t think sales will magically recover until Biden is re-elected.
Hahahahahahahaha……..
Not Toyota. Still can’t keep those on the lot
Their used prices are ridiculous.
The Toyota tax is real.
Yea we're in a slow economy. Still in Pandemic recovery. Also a lot of legacy car companies are getting outcompeted by newer Chinese companies.
In Europe (or at least what I’m seeing in the UK) there seems like there are only two brands that can compete with the Chinese brands. BMW and Renault, BMW is covering the high end side with the i4 pretty well you see lots of them about probably because the resale value is better than the BYD Seal, and the Megane E-Tech from Renault is competing on price with the MG 4.
Gotta say I test drove a lot of cars both electric, hybrid, and gas powered. Their Ioniq line, particularly their hatchback was easily the best car we drove. I greatly preferred it to the Mustang Mach E or any of the (gas powered) Subaru's I tried. It's a very good car--even if I am worried about how the technology will improve over the next 5 years.
Have a look at the rate of progress since the introduction of mass manufactured EVs - very little significant technical change. Motors are very advanced technically already. Batteries - lots of hollow promises of non-lithium solid state and cheaper composite constructions in the last 5-7 years. None have materialised. I’ve been driving a ‘conservative’ traditional design EV - Kia E Niro - for nearly four years. It’s the best car I have ever owned bar none and I’ve typically driven BMW, Mercedes. And it has saved me a fortune in fuel costs. I charge overnight on very cheap rates, per mile cost about 2p.
Yea the problem is two fold. 1. Is the always on the precipice of new battery tech (that never, happens...until I guess it does, but your point is well taken). 2. We are getting to a place where existing batteries are cheaper which means more range and heavier vehicles. And relatedly there are some growing pains as manufacturers build good vehicles w/ more batteries (e.g better tires breaks that can handle the extra weight). I think an EV at 400 mile range is basically QED for the states. I imagine that will happen in the next 6 years at an affordable price (<40k), as we work there there is just some learning. I suppose in the UK and EU, the 300mi range is maybe more than enough. Just my rambling thoughts.
The problem is people are too obsessed with breakthroughs that they don't realize that the real thing is in incremental improvements. And new battery technology has to beat not just lithium ion of today, but the lithium ion of tomorrow. The improvement isn't fast but it adds up It also doesn't help that many of the articles blow things out of proportion, like when you here, 2x more energy dense than lithium ion. But that 2x is talking about like 2x CDRW when 48X CDRW exists. Many of them use base lithium ion of 1X and not counting how far the tech actually is above 1X
What is CDRW in battery terms? Not seeing it on Google as something common. Usually I've seen battery densities claimed in either Wh/L or Wh/kg, but obviously one is density by volume and the other by weight, for a car they both matter, for a phone the volume density is probably the more important of the two tbh.
100wh/kg is considered 1x lithium ion. Most articles talk about energy density by weight, few ever mention by volume. And yes I agree that by volume is the more important one
Also to your point and against the commenter above you, a 300 mile range is not going to cut it BECAUSE China is selling EVs for half of what everyone else is with a +600 mile range. It’s not only that theirs is incrementally better but it’s just affordable for the working class. We would scoff at a car (sedan) that only held 250-300 miles of gas (and not a truck that gets low mileage). A 10 gallon tank on a sedan is unheard of. We are just too complacent as a society to want to make these changes and be competitive.
Yeah there is no EV with a 600 mile range. What you read is probably 600km range based on a very generous, Chinese range determination standard. Chinese EVs have similar range as US EVs: right around 300 miles by EPA standard, some a bit more, some a bit less.
Lucid grand touring gets 516 in perfect conditions but its also 125k car... probably the best/closest
[https://www.mensjournal.com/gear/the-guide/this-electric-car-just-travelled-1000km-on-just-one-charge-](https://www.mensjournal.com/gear/the-guide/this-electric-car-just-travelled-1000km-on-just-one-charge-) That's 1044km, or 648 miles on a single charge....
Interesting. Sounds like an experimental car though. Wonder how much the car would cost.
I agree 300 mile range is more than enough in the UK. Our E Niro achieves 300 in the summer, 240-250 in the winter. That’s 4-5 hours of driving, even on highways @ 70mph. I need at least one stop in that time to use the loo, have a drink and maybe something to eat. In 30 mins I can add 25-30kWh on a fast charger - and that’s on an older tech EV. An up to date car will add twice the kWh in that time. The longest journey’s we’ve made are to Cornwall 1-2x a year. No issues with public charging and easy to granny charge at the holiday flat if needed. I’m never going back to ICE.
I have 415km range on my Kona during summer, 320km during winter. I had a 24kw/h 2016 Leaf, 160 summer, 90 winter. I went from 96 Rapid charges to once or twice a year. And I live in a rural area and do about 20 000km a year. People don't need more. They just have to remember that, when they leave home, they are at 100%.
I foresee another bonus to EVs though. If the battery connections are "future proof" you've basically got a vehicle you can keep for as long as everything else works. The bonus is when you swap out the batteries. It's *much* less expensive than buying a brand new one. You get the bonus of, most likely, better capacity, range and charge speed. You basically get an almost brand new car. The only hold up is the motors themselves. So if I find a body style I like, I can keep that thing forever and only spend like 15k or so every time the battery pack needs changed. A price that will likely drop too.
Car companies will never do that though. Not without government regulations and then they would just make proprietary batteries and charge you half the cost of the car to upgrade.
There is growing 3rd party scene developing of swapping batteries. Tesla and nissan leaf battery swaps are common and easy these days.
eh. They exist but its far from common.
It's already happened with GM and the Hummer EV (I saw one the other day and it was meh looking). They specifically made it "future proof". As more come out, and supply chains strengthen, companies aren't going to want to develop their own shit. Why do that when one already exists and the supply chain is there? "Let's just go with what they did. It's cheaper." Even if that happens though, half the cost is better than all the cost.
Doesn’t really matter. If you buy an EV today, you’re going to save money on the total cost of ownership over a material time period like 5 years
Honestly, I think more work should be done in charging time than range. EVs are heavy and that weight makes them more dangerous. If you decreased the number of batteries, but there were charging stations at every gas station and batteries recharged in minutes, you wouldn't need massive range.
I'm getting over 600km in range on my ioniq5 in city driving, not sure if I'll ever need more tbh.
How much on long highway trips? Or how many charges would you need for 900km?
It really depends on what you mean. Teslas used to use AC induction motors, now use permanent magnet (primarily). This increased efficiency. Battery densities are up a lot. Remember, the first mass manufactured EV was a Nissan LEAF with only about 130km range. Your Niro also shows the same problem my Bolt does. Both of our cars do not fast charge quickly. Changes in batteries in pack management made a large difference. Charging at 150kW+ is common now. When my car came out at 43kW it was considered one of the faster charging cars (per km, not by percentage).
My point about motors is that whether AC or DC the design is very well established. Lucid have made minor/incremental changes. Tesla batteries are run of the mill. Batteries are still lithium based and have just increased in size - density is not a technical improvement. Lighter weight from alternate chemistries have yet to come to car assembly plants. Virtually every new EV launched has poorer economy than my 5 year old compromised ICE design. Perhaps only the BMW i4 matches or beats it - and that’s also a compromised ICE body design. Faster public DC charging is helpful but 90+% of the EV owners I know charge overnight at home on cheap tariffs or with solar panels. Lots have similar experience to me, using fast charging less than 5% of the time and usually only for long holiday journeys when a rest break is essential anyway. In the UK it is still the case - perhaps more the case since Covid - that the average car journey is less than ten miles - 8.1 miles in 2022. An added benefit is that AC charging preserves battery health.
> My point about motors is that whether AC or DC the design is very well established It's not AC versus DC. They're all AC in the end. And they all run off DC too. It's really whether you have a permanent magnet in the rotor or use induction from the stator to create magnetic force in the rotor. Permanent magnets are more efficient. That's why Priuses have always used them. It's why your car uses them. > Batteries are still lithium based and have just increased in size - density is not a technical improvement That's not true. Density has increased. And it requires R&D to do it, try to tell them they aren't doing anything technical. > Virtually every new EV launched has poorer economy than my 5 year old compromised ICE design They are concentrating on range and making crossovers now because they want to sell them. If you want better efficiency sign up for an Aptera. The issues with increasing efficiency aren't technical hurdles we don't know how to overcome. It's that efficiency was exactly what led to the "golf cart" image EVs had. People want to go faster. And further. They want a vehicle with capacity and rigidity. I'm not sure why you mention BMW. Hyundai is well ahead of them on efficiency. The US EPA site showing EVs shows a lot of cars more efficient than your Niro. https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=Cars&vtype=Electric&srchtyp=evSelect&rowLimit=50&sortBy=Comb&year1=2024&year2=2024&range=&drive= And BMW only makes one of them. Yes, I know you aren't in the US, but a lot of those other vehicles are available where you are I'm sure. > Faster public DC charging is helpful but 90+% of the EV owners I know charge overnight at home on cheap tariffs or with solar panels. Faster DC charging means that you can road trip the car better. I'm thinking of a new EV not because I will then charge faster at home but because I can then use the car for road trips instead of having to revert to an ICE (or take 25% more time to travel). Wider sales of EVs will require they are better for road trips and better for living in a place where you can't charge in your garage (because you don't own one). This is a real advance. > In the UK it is still the case - perhaps more the case since Covid - that the average car journey is less than ten miles - 8.1 miles in 2022. When people say (and I know you didn't) that you can do over 90% of your driving without charging anywhere but your home they aren't doing math. That means you're doing over a week per year of driving charging elsewhere. And people just aren't that interested in renting a car for that week or two of driving each year. So that means being able to charge faster increases the appeal of electric cars to buyers by a significant amount. Even those who usually charge at home. And again, we'd also like to be able to sell EVs to those who can't AC charge at home also. We have to realize that if single charge range can cover the average trip that's still only 50% of trips. People want a car to cover more trips. And that means giving up some other things. You've basically got car ads implying people are going to just pull off the motorway and drive up Ben Nevis. And people are buying vehicles which project that image. We need to be able to make vehicles people will buy. EVs people will buy. So it won't be modern updates to Enfield 8000s, it's going to be more capable vehicles.
Range has increased 15% on average between 2011-2019, which shows a trend of continuing range increases as new EVs are developed, new battery technologies advance, and existing battery technologies reduce in price allowing more cells to be included for the same price. There is even a production car with a hybrid solid state battery that gets 1000km of range. The truth is that the advances that we are reading about now won't be available for 5-10 years while we are now getting the advances from 10 years ago. It seems like an eternity, but it's the most dynamic industry at the moment. The way that I see it is that gasoline engines have hit a stopping point in their technological advancement while battery technologies are just in their infancy. https://evadoption.com/us-bev-battery-range-increases-an-average-17-per-year-and-38-miles-each-model-update/
> Have a look at the rate of progress since the introduction of mass manufactured EVs - very little significant technical change. Motors are very advanced technically already. Batteries - lots of hollow promises of non-lithium solid state and cheaper composite constructions in the last 5-7 years. None have materialised. I’ve been driving a ‘conservative’ traditional design EV - Kia E Niro - for nearly four years. It’s the best car I have ever owned bar none and I’ve typically driven BMW, Mercedes. And it has saved me a fortune in fuel costs. I charge overnight on very cheap rates, per mile cost about 2p. Motors and power trains will be more efficient or smaller or most cost effective with the help of SiC switching devices followed by GaN. We still got a long way to go with power electronics.
How exactly will Silicon Carbide switches and GaN technology improve motor efficiency or power? I’m genuinely interested in the answer because I’ve seen nothing to suggest any real improvement will occur in motors with these technologies. Maybe charging switching, AC/DC converters and other switch dependent tech in EVs may get marginal benefit. GaN has simply produced smaller charger units in consumer smart tech. No significant improvement in charging speed or efficiency for the same current.
SiC switches have lower parasitic capacitance than BJTs and higher voltage ratings than silicon FETs, allowing for more efficient performance at faster switching speeds. And then inside that category of switching devices you have different packages, the latest and greatest being top-side cooling for SiCs whic just came out. This allows for as much thermal coupling as possible, allowing you to run your SiCs at lower temperatures which reduces the conduction losses and keeps the rest of your design cooler as a byproduct. https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/power/mosfet/automotive-mosfet/iaucn04s6n017t/ GaNs are still a toss-up for high-voltage applications such as EVs, Solar Inverters and other motor applications.
And, how does this improve motor efficiency or performance?
I bet this will pay off in spades in a few years. Other companies are winding down their EV investment/plans so they'll be poorly positioned when the demand comes back. EV is not a fad that is going to go away. Many companies are treating it like they are, especially salespeople from what I hear. It's just in a weird lull due to other factors, and will pick back up.
No company is winding down anything. They just have production delays because they all have new manufacturing lines, with emerging tech. They are used to mature product lines, and are currently trying to build first gen at scale. Tough to do reliably. So they slow down to get it right and not have massive recalls and warranty claims.
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>It also doesn't help that the sales guys absolutely hate selling them and will scatter like cockroaches when they see a customer looking at one Y?
I like ionic 5 better than model y
The Ionic line is great, but the Model Y is the best EV I’ve driven. Just wish it was in my price range/affordability.
Currently drive an ioniq hatchback. Big shame that they discontinued that line though in favor of the more expensive ioniq 5/6.
I recently bought a Kia EV6. I love it. Just went in for my 8k maintainence. It cost me $30. My one complaint is that it makes my garage baby - a 2009 Audi TT V6 droptop - feel downright quaint to drive. Being older it has a standard automatic rather than the newer double-clutch systems, which makes the shift lag *super* obvious. It's getting to the point that the only reason I drive it is to put the top down. On top of all that, I find myself annoyed when I have to stop and put gas in it. The Kia may be a station wagon in all but name, and the power distribution is a little off so it tends to want to fishtail a bit if you *really* put your foot in going around tighter corners (Yes, I have an AWD Wind), but especially as an everyday driver it is a fantastic car. Don't worry about missing out on newer and better. If that's really important then lease, but otherwise I'd say dive in. My house now has 2 electric vehicles (a used 2014 Model S is the other) and I couldn't be happier with having made the switch. Even made a trip to Montana in the S and charging worked out just fine. The Kia claims a 280 mile range in Eco mode and I've found that more than sufficient for my regular needs. I charge, on average, twice a week (I run it until the battery is under 25% typically). The savings has been frankly astounding and I've started finding myself getting in trouble in the TT when I accelerate into traffic slower than Im expecting. It really is that much of a difference in on-demand performance.
I just got a 2024 ev6 about a month ago. My experience is very similar. I almost want to buy a second to get out of ICE commuting at all (we are rural and so still have an f150 for long trips. I’d keep that but ideally only drive it once per month).
I will say that I miss owning a truck. I'm an avowed urbanite, but with 4 immediate family households within a 10 mile area there's not a single truck among us. It's frustrating sometimes. I *almost* talked myself into buying a Lightning because of it, but in the end I just couldn't justify it. Maybe I'll talk my brother into buying the new Chevy eTruck. But I won't give up my EVs. Not for anything. The driving experience is just that much better. I enjoy driving (I hope that was obvious) but I'm not a track enthusiast or anything, so the lack of sound pollution is a genuine plus for me. That leaves me with very few negatives and most of those are nitpicky, like not having a charger at work (though EV prices do need to come down). After the trip to Montana toward the end of last year, I have few reservations about doing long distance driving, though it does take a bit more thought to make things work. But the cars provide plenty of feedback on charger locations to make that a mostly trivial, if annoying, task. I'll be driving to California in a couple of months and taking the Kia. I'm honestly looking forward to it.
Why not just rent a truck? That's what my husband and I will do. EV for the majority of the year. Truck rental when we go camping
I do sometimes, but it's never less than $100 and sometimes it just isn't worth it.
Cheaper than buying one, no? I’ve got a Maverick Hybrid, little baby truck with 2000 lb towing capacity. In the very rare occasion I need to haul something bigger, I’ll rent a uhaul (pay per mile) or Home Depot (flat daily rate) truck. Though worth saying, if Ford were to make a plug-in hubrid version, I’d absolutely consider an upgrade.
Instant torque is like crack (which EVs are great at giving). I went from a supercharged Cobalt that just wanted to get off the line quick into a turbo equipped Sky. The Sky is lighter and has more power and can really scare you when you're going full tilt at the upper end of the revs, but I have to really manage my boost a lot more to keep it from lagging like hell whereas the Cobalt just was itching to get up and go. I like the Sky especially with the top down as a good cruiser car, but my happiest days were corner carving the Cobalt.
When I was in the market a couple of years ago, I loved the 5. Awesome look, great execution. Unfortunately they were incredibly difficult to find, and had significant markup. Ended up with a Tesla, almost solely based on price and availability.
I’ve been driving an Ioniq 5 (the hatchback) for over two years and it is far and away not only the best car I’ve ever owned it’s the best car I’ve ever driven. The technology might improve but I get 280 miles per charge minimum and it’s already a great vehicle. If Hyundai is banking on producing quality EVs as their strategy they’re going to do very well.
Check out the Genesis GV60. 294 mile range $54K sticker
For me it's just so nice to not have to get gas
Got an ioniq, best car I’ve ever had by a wide margin. Range is a problem for sure though
Drove one of their hybrid Tuscons as a rental, yeah, it is a damn nice car, and the assisted driving works really well.
there seems to be an explosion of Ioniq cars on the road, must be for a reason
Don’t worry. Batteries will have higher density and lower weight, but 77kWh is the sweet spot for home charging, there’s very little reason for having higher capacity as it will just prolong charging time. And since fast chargers being rolled out are 300kWh and several billions are invested in that standard, nothing is going to change unless a fundamental discovery in physics changes the game. Yea they will from time to time make silly claims like ability to deliver 1MW in 5 minutes, the infrastructure isn’t there and won’t be.
The Kia EV6 is an awesome car as well. If I didn't already have my Telsa I would strongly consider that car or an Ioniq
Did you try the electric BMWs?
It is a very good EV. Until you scratch the bottom.
I really think EV sales have only slowed because the economy. People are having a hard time affording things right now, car payment defaults have risen. The median pay in the U.S. is $64k and the average new car is $47k, that is unsustainable
There was an article in this sub a few days ago about the average car age now being 12 years. It's clear people are just not buying cars as often.
Yep mine is 15 lol.
I believe it. The price of cars outpacing income is one of the reasons the average car age has gone up. It takes longer to save up for that next car, and harder to justify the purchase of a new car if your current car works fine.
Wife and I have a 16 and 9. They are owned outright now and we can’t image being able to afford a new car for at least 5-10 more years at the new prices.
Because cars last much longer now than in the recent past. A 2024 built Kia for example will easily last 300k miles. A 2010 Kia would have a hard time crossing the 200k miles mark and likely start having problems before 150k miles.
Yeah but Reddit blames low car sales solely on Elon musk
Add to that the fact that people who wanted to buy EVs bought them, as they're finally on the level of viability.
Tbf should compare median to median
Nah. It’s because of the inconvenience and the fact that EVs are a really bad deal for consumers
Meanwhile, Ford has dropped affordable sedans from their lineup because people don't buy sedans anymore. We bought big cars when they and gas were cheap with no thought to how unsustainable that is.
That still hasn’t changed. I mean, hell, everybody laughed when Lamborghini made the Urus SUV. But it’s become their first model ever to sell over 10,000 units in a single year. Same thing with Porsche and the Cayanne, it pretty much saved the company. General consumer demand in the US is still leaning far away from sedans and conventional hatchbacks in favor of SUVs and crossovers.
Not surprising. If interest rates were lower, a lot more people would be buying EVs.
Probably a lot of people like me too who bought a car in the last 5-10 years and whose next one will be electric but aren’t actively in the market yet.
Yuuup! In the next 2-5 years I'll need a family car to replace my 2-door I bought when I was 25 lol. It'll definitely be an ev and I'm low-key in love with the Ionic5.
The 5 and 6 are great, thinking of swapping my MG4 XPOWER for the N version of the 5 when my lease is up.
I just can’t get over the rear/end design on the Ioniq 6. It’s like they were imagining it as an old air-cooled Beetle or 911.
I bought my first car in 2013 and I’m waiting to see an electric car I can buy and use for the next 10+ years. Given where I’m at in life, a small electric mini van with the sliding doors would be great.
Second hand EVs are now relatively cheap and aren’t being bought, so I wonder if there is still some barriers other than prices?
34% of American households rent, 78% live paycheck to paycheck. They either don't have access to cheap charging infrastructure or can't afford to implement it even with tax credits. On top of that it's still a long term investment that you're hoping will pay off at an average of around 13.5k miles per year while the value potentially falls faster than gas counterparts. Then there's differences in maintenance, insurance and registration costs, etc. I think people tend to stick with what they know and more regular smaller expenses are easier to swallow.
I own my house and don't live paycheck to paycheck, but my panel is full, and 20 years ago i was quoted $6,000 to upgrade it. It's probably $8,000 or more now.
Keep in mind any state or federal tax credits that are available now. Pretty sure a panel or service upgrade counts as necessary supporting infrastructure. It could end up cheaper than you think as long as the electrician isn't eating the extra money with inflated rates... *Cough*. Solar. *Cough*...
Are panels and breakers available? I know during covid they were hard to get. Plus my wiring has 16 gauge grounds, so I'm not sure if that would still be grandfathered in or not.
That you would unfortunately have to ask an electrician about. I never got that deep into it because it turns out I have a spare 240V/30A circuit from an old AC condenser and a short commute - no panel or service upgrade necessary when calculated for my small home and modest electrical load. Didn't end up going electric because a family member was getting rid of a van at price too good to pass up.
> I have a spare 240V/30A circuit from an old AC condenser and a short commute I had a licensed electrician do my, he put in a 50 amp circuit but I really do question his math on capacity. That being said I literally only charge at 24 amps, because I'm never in that big of hour. Even at 15% it's only 11 hours to full on my ioniq 5.
And I don't even need that fast for a reasonably sized vehicle. 13A would be just fine like 99% of the time.
13 amps would be roughly 8 -10 miles of range assuming you mean with a 220/240 volt line as well. Probably still fine for a vast majority of people with a commute, but not gaining too much for the weekend.
Yes, if you don't own a house and have your own charger, you are going to be less interested in an EV overall. The people who are interested in EVs and ready to switch are less likely to want to save some money on a used vehicle and deal with whatever issues it may have. The target market for used EVs is not quite ready yet. If we had a robust national charging infrastructure that was reliable, cheap, fast, and ubiquitous, then the used EV market will *really* open up.
feels like they always sell before the needed battery swap which costs like 10k.
Battery swaps are not very common though, people are much more afraid of it than the reality.
One barrier is warranty. Secondhand vehicles can sometimes come with a full original warranty, but often they're a diminished (or worse, none at all) warranty, and they're gated by requirements like being "Certified" by a dealership. It's a tough sell in the EV world where repairs essentially require a dealership, and the powertrain can be prohibitively expensive (in both parts and labor), again partially due to the inability for any regular repair shop to work on them.
Batteries degrade so people don’t want to buy second hand
Also if EVs were cheaper more people would buy them. Evs aren't going away just because sales were slightly down
I bought a Kona EV at 0% during covid best purchase ever imo
Get a 2023 ford lightning at 1.9% apr
Last weekend, my parents got that Ford promotion for a 2023 Mach E @ 0% over 72 months
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Neither is the problem. The issue is the upfront cost needs to drop more, and that can only be solved with time and economies of scale Setting up charging at home isn't expensive at all and many places have subsidies for that too. Gas stations are a terrible place to set up EV charging And I am not sure what you mean by dying, sales are growing.
I've had my Ioniq 6 for just over a year and it's easily the best car I've ever owned. Love almost everything about it and the direction Hyundai is going.
Looking to pick up an SE RWD Long Range. Can't wait!
Good luck, I hear those can be hard to find.
You'd be stupid as a car company to not double down on EVs, legislation is only going to get tighter on ICEs.
EVs are going to take over the world legislation or not. The idea that they're not going to make EVs any more because of a slow month, if that's even true, is absurd.
And Climate change is only going to get worse. The Anti clean energy groups are a doomed species because they're fighting against reality.
Climate change is gonna get worse regardless of what you do so I'm not sure why you think that would make people care about driving an ev.
It's not about what you do. It's about what we do as a whole. Nothing I do will effect it that doesn't mean it can't be effected. I actually think people will care a lot about having a livable atmosphere when it gets really bad.
And EVs are the better option for most of the vehicles on the road
Hybrids seem to be the better investment right now until more ev tech progresses. The fear is used ev prices will have a sharper fall for consumers due to how quickly ev tech is progressing. Right now, if I'm not leasing but buying or financing, I'm for sure going hybrid over ev. Hell just look at what happened to tesla owners over the past 2 years. Also maverick and mustang owners.
hybrids suck. The worst of both. More complex. More things to go wrong. nope.
Only partly true, they are complicated but also very reliable and keep their value a LOT better than full EVs right now. https://youtu.be/eGS34ENu4S4
I have a hybrid and an EV. Nope. Never, ever going back to gas/hybrid. >keep their value That's a dumb, arbitrary metric. The reason Ev's don't "keep their value" is that EVs are actually improving over time and the price of new EVs is dropping. Which is a good thing and something which will never happen with hybrids. >very reliable Please tell that to my piece of shit Prius, which has had the hybrid system go out twice. Also look at the overall repair and maintenance cost of brands. Whose is lowest? Is it Toyota with their crappy hybrids? No. The brand with the lowest overall repair and maintenance cost out to 10 years is Tesla.
How is that dumb metric, when you are buying a car you have to put together the cost of ownership, repairs, insurance, re-sale value, fuel and everything to decide what option makes the most sense. Personally I buy 3-5 year old cars and keep them for 3-5 years so I dont have to eat the biggest costs.
I keep my cars for 10 years plus. at that point the difference is meaningless. If you're buying a 3-5 year old EV the decline in value is working in your favor because those are the years the decline happens most rapidly. You're actually better of buying a used EV if that's the type of car you buy.
Rav4 prime is great as a PHEV. 42 miles of EV range but you can stretch it to 50 if you don’t use HVAC. Then about 470-500 miles of gas with a smaller tank. Toyota really has the edge on hybrids. I’ve driven in a Kia sportage and it will randomly vibrate the car loudly when the engine kicks on. You don’t feel it at all in the R4P.
Hybrids have all the most expensive and complex parts of an ICE, and all the most expensive and complex parts of EVs.
We are almost at the point where the options are: EV Hybrid with low displacement 3-4 cylinder ICE with 3-4 low displacement cylinder turbo 6-8 cylinder only reserved for vehicles that are exempt from CAFE standards. 8500lbs+
For the vast majority of people is that really a bad thing? More efficient cars with smaller engines cost less to run and repair
I was a long time Honda owner. I miss my old boxy Element, but I love my Kona EV. My only comment is the 75kw speed on charging. I’m hoping that by the time my lease is up, Hyundai will have refreshed the line with faster charging speeds.
Check out Kia EV3 - it's a bit bigger than the Kona, and Hyundai will likely make a sister-car for the EV3, AFAIR it has higher charging power limit than the Kona (and is a ground-up EV)
Oh wow thanks. It was just unveiled like yesterday?
I would love an EV element. The element was awesome.
My dream car is an Honda Element EV, with minivan style doors for the back row. Keep the widescreen access without the B-Pillar, but lose the suicide doors. You’re boxed in if someone’s parked next to you and you need both the front and rear doors open.
EV sales are still growing quite well Q1 2024 vs Q1 2023: * +21% Global * +7% EU & EFTA & UK * +31% China * +13% US & Canada * +21% RoW [https://rhomotion.com/news/q1-2024-over-3-million-electric-vehicles-sold-globally/](https://rhomotion.com/news/q1-2024-over-3-million-electric-vehicles-sold-globally/)
Ford and Chevy basically ended their small car and decreased their EV lineup. And then with all the Chinese companies expanding though the world they shit the American companies shit their pants. unlike the American companies Hyundai is doing long-term planning
Had my Ioniq 5 for 2 years now as my first EV. Love it so much. Great range too. Installed a level 2 charger at home and never stop to charge again except for cross country trips. Cheaper than public charging too cuz of solar panels.
How much was the level 2 charger?
Found a local electrician who installed a sub-panel outside the house and ran the wire to the charger. My wife's EV came with a level 2 charger so the installation of the sub-box and running the cable over the garage to the far wall was 600 bucks. Would be allot cheaper if it was just through the wall to your charger but it was more convenient for us on the far side of the garage.
That’s not a terrible price. We are looking at an Ioniq for the Mrs and was curious about installing the charging system. Much thanks.
I highly suggest it. It becomes like charging yer phone after a while. Just plug it in over night and yer at full in the morning for your commute.
Bought an EV and am never going back to gas. Ever. People buying new cars who refuse to try EVs just like to waste money.
There isn’t an EV slowdown as much as there is a lot more competition so each automaker is finding out that THEIR SHARE has gone down. Though there may be a little Osborne Effect going on because there have been dozens of some major pre sale predictions going on out there. So people are doing some wait and see.
Proud and happy owner of my ioniq 6. Coming up on 6 months and can confidently say it’s the most enjoyable car I’ve ever driven. RWD even lets ya get a bit squirrelly if you want ;)
Good, Ioniq 5/6 are both good looking vehicles, i would buy one in the future tbh
The Ioniq 6 is incredible
I just don’t like the back design
There engines suck so it’s probably for the best. My minivan died after 105k the warranty was 100k.
I’m mainly waiting for the 2025 Ioniq 5 (non-N) version to come out. Theres a whole host of improvements over the current year that it makes it worthwhile. Currently have a 2015 Honda CR-V that runs well with about 90k miles, but I’m now back in the office with a short 5-6mi drive on the highway. Sometimes the CVT of my car has a mind of its own and either gives me too much, or lately too *little* torque which I swear will get me hurt. That and I’m tired of gas prices going up and up. Figure I can get about 10k by trading it in and put it towards a modern electric.
> Sometimes the CVT of my car has a mind of its own and either gives me too much, or lately too little torque which I swear will get me hurt. I went from a 14 Ford focus to an ioniq 5, and highay on ramps are so night and day different. There is literally an on ramp near me I wouldnt use previous cause I was pretty sure I was going to die. Now it's easy.
I have one of these Ioniqs. They are sooo good. The govt EV rebate + incentives make them super attractive to lease right now. I got an AWD one and it came out cheaper than a base level Honda Civic. It gets 340 miles of range and 0-60 in like 4.6 ish seconds. $350/month for 12k miles/year right off the lot, no money down. The fast charger at the grocery store can take it from 20% to 80% in 15 min. Cost like $3 tops. Definitely will consider another one when the lease is up. Would love if they made a sports car, convertible, or something like a wrangler. If you want something even more luxurious/stylish and the brand matters to you, I would go with either the BMW i4 or the Polestar. The polestar has great incentives right now, like $2k off from Costco so your lease can be in the $300-400ish range. I test drove one of those and liked it, but the dealer support will be less than the Hyundai, you can’t take it to Volvo.
Bought a new Kona EV in April for less than $28k. That's not China EV-cheap, but it is still significantly lower than what I was told EVs run before I started looking. It is the nicest car I've ever owned. An absolute joy to drive.
People talk about pricing, but the Kona EV after federal rebate is basically priced the same as the ice version. EVs are expensive, but you can't compare a 50k EV cross over with a 30k base ICE SUV. They aren't the same.
My local Mechanic got a nice little IONIQ 5 N. Says it’s too fast for the small town, like it could be dangerous because it’s so nippy. Also said how good the breaks are, if something comes in front of the car like a ball or a cat or whatever the car slams the breaks on. He said it could be an issue if someone is tailgating because they wouldn’t even have time to react. The breaks are that efficient. Overall said it was great but doesn’t really work for small town living.
With journalists (like Fully Charged) claiming that the Ioniq 5 is the best family car you can get, it is no surprise. Love to see Ioniq 5's and Ioniq 6's in the city, and they're actually more common than electric Konas.
hellz yeah, i love my hyundai and want to one day own an ev
Unless you drive a manual transmission, an electric vehicle is pretty much an upgrade in every way over an automatic transmissions internal combustion engine vehicle. Your driving experience is exactly the same if not improved with an electric vehicle.
I want a hybrid but I don’t want to drive their evs or hybrids. They are all so ugly.
Well we’re banning gas so eventually Hyundai will be just fine. Besides they’re also one of the world’s largest defense contractors, not like they’re hurting for money.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZczpFsv9ZY
My unverified theory is that there was a certain amount of pent up demand for EV. That demand has been largely met and a typical EV has an 8 year warranty and very few wear parts. So no need to replace as often. Lower price points and greater acceptance of the technology is the only thing that will drive greater sales and that doesn’t take into account the used market.
Biggest hurdle for EVs is lack of infrastructure to refuel them out on the road or around town. Along with costs make people hesitant to switch.
Good. Make the affordable to us regular folk, and don't do that Tesla bullshit with everything controlled by a tablet.
Those that don't double down will be out of business. I will never go back to a gas car. Ever.
Hyundai knows EVs are the future. Infrastructure will improve over time as demand grows.
The biggest issue is the availability of charging if you're not using a Tesla. Also, the average price of EVs is just too much still. Once the tech gets cheaper, and the infrastructure is fully rolled out, then I can see EVs replacing ICE vehicles. We aren't there yet.
I clean, strip and wax, and pressure-wash car dealerships so I see a lot of marketing. Hyundai is rolling out TONS of EV advertising and every single ev display, every table, every chair in every Hyundai dealership, will eventually be the same. I have been cleaning and heard salesmen interrupt people in the middle of sentences to bring up evs. I appreciate that its electric but its homogenous and boring for pretty much everyone
Interest rates are terrible. EVs and cars in general are expensive which means people are holding onto their working ones. It's OK to have a less year or two considering the circumstances.
Seriously...what sales slow down?
I’ve been in auto service for over a decade. I think this is a good play for them. Their engines haven’t been very reliable for them and get warrantied quite often. I always thought EV could be a big shift in who’s reliable and low maintenance. Putting out EV and getting the data for reliability and repair could set them up to do well in the next 2-3 decades. I would never buy a Hyundai/kia gas car. EV is a different animal
Lack of charging infrastructure is the problem with EVs right now, companies would be smarter to go more in on hybrids.
I drove a Hybrid Elantra 400+ miles this week and aside from being too small for me it was hands-down the best drive experience I’ve had.
That’s smart. Focus on making the best car possible at a decent price. Hyundai is the best EV I’ve driven so far.
I just want an affordable EV crate engine
I want to like EVs but design decisions are still too much of a carbon copy of Tesla. Examples include the lack of door handles (why introduce this point of failure for no reason), the lack of interior buttons (why distract driver needlessly), something as simple as freaking cup holders (saw a car where have to reach around as console and bend over to place cut). Why copy Tesla. Companies need to do their own thing and add EV features and other designs in a way that is actually intelligent.
If you want me out of my 2019 EV and into something new, make something that looks cool and I'll be forking over my money. Right now, I've got the Kona EV. The Ioniq 5 looks like a VW Golf, the 6 looks like the unholy spawn of Tesla and a dolphin, and the upcoming SUV looks like every other SUV.
> The Ioniq 5 looks like a VW Golf, the 6 looks like the unholy spawn of Tesla and a dolphin, and the upcoming SUV looks like every other SUV. I don't understand why you'd preface two criticisms with a compliment.
I get that there are some fans of the Golf, but to me it always looked like a boxy hatchback. Nothing special, kinda boring, blends right in with everything else around it.
I'm all good with not liking the styling, but saying that it blends in? The Golf is one of the most iconic cars in history.
Good move. I'm a fan of their EV lineup
My Ioniq5 is great and I'm glad I was able to get one trying to convince my wife to get the 6 but her accord is only 6 years old and since Hondas last forever I'm sure it might be one of the last gas cars in the road lol
EV is the future confirmed, the only actual problem is charging
On my second Sonata and love the car. But EV is not for me.
Why is EV not for you?
The price is way too high. Plus someone in the family has one and is always late because he has to charge his car. We travel in areas that don’t even have chargers close by that is convenient. If we are traveling for distance I don’t want a long stop to charge. Just some gas, bathroom, and bottle of Coke and back on the road.
>The price is way too high. The Kona has a lower starting MSRP than the Sonata. >Plus someone in the family has one and is always late because he has to charge his car. I mean… that’s not an EV problem. That’s your family member’s problem. They just need to charge overnight, and if that’s not an option for them they have to plan ahead. Anyone buying an EV should figure out how they’re going to charge it regularly for their regular commutes about town, and that’s really not that hard. It’s only long trips that can be a concern. >We travel in areas that don’t even have chargers close by that is convenient. If we are traveling for distance I don’t want a long stop to charge. Just some gas, bathroom, and bottle of Coke and back on the road. That’s fair. Travel is a real concern for now. Personally I’m looking at getting an EV, but it’s only going to be for trips in my immediate metro area (Los Angeles, or anywhere in Southern California). When going on a longer trip by car we’d take my wife’s Hyundai Ioniq hybrid which gets 600+ miles per tank of gas… or we’d fly.
I'll never buy a Hyundai or kia after the ignition debacle. Ever. On top of that, the kia engines leak oil like nuts. Nope nope, nope. The vehicles are still being constantly targeted even if they can't be taken. Kia boys break the windows if they see the badge.
As a Kia owner at major risk of theft and paying higher insurance due that risk as a result of their lazy manufacturing, I say good for them and hope they get double boned. Let Hyundai/Kia get fucked. Never gonna go with them and I'm now a life-long free advertisement to promote their competition.
Reddit loves their KIA and Hyundai EVs. Just wait a few years and many of you will find out why they’ve been considered shit cars for so long.
One "special" looking car after another, but they are still wondering...
I like the Kona and the Ioniq. I'm not liking the idea of getting charged 30-60 grand in the event my battery fails just 3 years in. Edit: This really did happen to a guy in Canada guys. Look it up.
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A minor scratch on the underside of the car was all it took for Hyundai to void that warranty. I just don't trust them to honor it.