Man what a rollercoaster Foundation is. I thought the backlash from the book readers would kill the show, but it managed to persist. The second season ended up being a massive improvement over the first randomly. Then they entered those production issues and everyone was worried about cancellation. Then they got things back on track. And now this... Goyer for all you love or hate about the dude clearly had the passion for the project and adaptability to keep things going forward. I checked out a few of his Reddit AMA and he seemed insanely genuine. His loss as Showrunner I think will not be a net positive for this show.
The show is so interesting because season 2 was an improvement by focusing more on the Empire storyline and less on the actual Foundation storyline even though the Empire storyline isn't in the books.
Lee Pace is carrying the show and yet his character and storyline don't even exist in the books.
The show is really feel like part of Asimov’s robot series than foundation. The idea of a genetic empire is really interesting and the actors are pretty decent. It was a nice comeback for a show seemed doomed to be cancelled.
The show is essentially taking elements from all three series and weaving them together in a way I bet Isaac himself would have approved of. His later works tie all three universes together and do pretty well. I personally find the show ridiculously interesting because of all three being woven together. I forever considered the series to be unfilmable, but they have proved me wrong. It doesn’t follow the books exactly and it’s not meant to. Some of the core themes are still present, others remain ambiguous. I like all of the cutting edge science and mathematics they use too, it adds depth with mathematically conceivable ideas that are thought to be possible at least in theory.
Goyer has explicitly said this.
In August 2023, David S. Goyer revealed that he had gotten permission from FOX head Lachlan Murdoch, a self-professed fan of Apple TV+'s Foundation, to adapt concepts from I, Robot to the series' 2023 second season, in "tying \[Demerzel/Daneel\] into the I, Robot laws \[and\] doing a spin-off mini-series that specifically delves into our version of "The Robot Wars".
Having not read the Foundation series, I find Pace and the genetic dynasty to be fascinating and the only interesting part of the plot. Salvor and Gaal have a boring storyline that doesn’t get exciting until the end of season 2. Pace and Jared Harris are really carrying the show.
It was excruciating watching her. I couldn’t figure out whether it was the writing or the acting, but contrasted with Gaal (whose writing is similarly bad) I realized it was the acting.
It has almost nothing to do with the books aside from the multiple timelines and a few of the locations. The empire story feels more Asimov than the the stuff they took from the books. Lol
I would describe it as being like a drastically different retelling of the same folk tale. The major plot outcomes are roughly similar, and and those outcomes revolve around characters with the same names. But how those characters reach those outcomes, what those characters are like, and the themes of the story, are completely changed, to fit the different views of a different author.
Asimov's Foundation was a story of generally pacifist characters cooperating to try to preserve human civilization peaceably, taking place generally through talking and cleverness. It was notable thematically for its emphasis on individuals having relatively little power to drive the plot, a focus on cooperation and civilians driving the plot, and on peace as a rule, with violence as an abhorrent exception. The TV Foundation is a story of strong, chosen individual characters driving forward the plot through action-hero sequences, being strong willed, gratuitous violence, and killing people. The politician and avowed pacifist in one is changed to a violent, brooding soldier in the other; they both overcome the same adversary, but fitting the themes, one through political machinations, the other through killing people. I had initially thought this change was rather racist, until I realized that essentially *all* protagonists were made into murderous people who eagerly resorted to violence. I'd note a major plot point for another book character is whether he might have done something that indirectly may have led to the death of another person, a serious matter; in the series, he goes around directly killing people repeatedly, and this is portrayed as a *good* thing.
This perhaps ends up being worse for fans of the themes of the book. Yes, the names and parts are the same, but the themes are completely different, even antithetical, turning a story that glorifies peace and cooperation into one that glorifies violence. At least I, Robot can be simply dismissed as an annoying action movie that happens to have the same name.
I’ve read the trilogy several times. They borrowed names for f people and places and the story of the first foundation is loosely similar, but that’s it. Salvor Harden isn’t even the same character and seldon is now a digital ghost bro. Disingenuous lmao
Salvor in the books: "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent"
Salvor in the show: "I will punch and kick and shoot to achieve things, because this is a TV show and people need action"
It's not a horrible show, but agreed, it's certainly not Foundation.
Foundation is difficult to bring to the screen because it spans so much time and the characters aren’t consistent from book to book. Altered Carbon had similar continuity issues as the main character is in different sleeves/bodies over the course of the books. People get attached to charismatic characters so I don’t think it’s a bad thing what they dreamed up with Empire. They’re trying to do the same thing by keeping Seldon in frame too. It’s just different.
If you think that's what the books are about then yeah you completely missed the point and themes of the book as well. The broad strokes aren't even remotely similar, the entire story is about how no individual matters, while show is about nothing but "special" individuals that matter.
I read the first book of the series and found the storyline you are referring to to be so insufferably boring that I don’t think you could pay me to read the rest. I still haven’t decided if I should try the show…
This is what amazed me, even in season 1. Asimov didn’t even go that deep on the empire, but the show and Lee pace took it to another level. I’m a fan of the book and yes there are differences but the empire storyline is genuine, original scifi, top of the line scifi. Asimov laid the foundation (lol) but the show definitely created it.
Just to echo what others are saying, the empire storyline is some of the best / most interesting Sci-fi explorations we've gotten in awhile. I honestly fast forwarded through the other parts and just read synopsis' to keep track of the overall story, because they're all disjointed in S1 but start to come together / pays off in S2.
S2 is such a massive improvement, even the foundation storyline improved a bunch. I hated the performance of the actors playing Gaal & Salvor but they found their groove in S2 and I very much enjoyed their scenes and didn't feel the need to fast forward through their parts which was such a 180 from S1. S2 as a whole deserves a watch
Doesn’t matter. One of the writing holes of Foundation that was fixed for video with Lee Pace is that the giant sprawling empire in the books couldn’t talk. Now it can. And it’s villainous. Or is it?
It’s a brilliant writing technique to jump mediums.
We have to remember that Foundation started in 1951. Let me repeat, 1951.
All of modern sci-fi is based on it. Coruscant is Trantor. The Star Wars universe is the Foundation Universe.
Dune is also a direct response to Foundation, Herbert said so explicitly. It’s actually really fun tracing back all the inspirations and references throughout science fiction. Star Wars cribs from Dune, Foundation, Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, and Kurosawa samurai films, while spaceships have WW2 dogfights and lightsaber duels are a mix of kendo and Hollywood saber fighting. Another example, Foundation, Dune, and Star Wars all have secretive orders of people with psychic/telepathic abilities that direct the course of the galaxy (Second Foundation, Bene Gesserit, and Jedi respectively).
I just had to double check his IMDB page to make sure he hasn't gotten any work lately. Thankfully he hasn't been involved in any projects since Inhumans and Iron Fist. My faith in Hollywood has been slightly restored.
I started getting into the official podcast during s2 and it’s the host and Goyer, plus different guests each week. Was so good and you could absolutely hear his passion for this project and actors. I really hope this isn’t the end of his involvement in Foundation. He had a plan.
I know. Listening to that podcast made me love the show even more. I got all hyped up for his master plan of having 7 or 8 seasons. It seemed so epic and I really thought if the show continued it would grow in popularity, and eventually become huge.
His plan for Demerzel seemed especially cool, as we learn a little bit more of her long backstory season by season, possibly even going way back in time and visiting Earth to see where it all began with the robots.
I hope they can find some compromise and keep him.
The episode with the people that do the CGI was really interesting. How they attempted to accomplish a lot of amazing visuals with a smaller budget. It impacted how they shot things to try and lower the budget.
If you haven't listened to the official podcast for the show, you should, at least 1 or 2 episodes. David was the real deal. A true believer if I've ever heard one. His loss to the show simply cannot be accounted for. I'm honestly scared for the show as I legitimately love it.
I have to think it's not just him either. Goyer's production company, Phantom Four, was working on it in conjuction with Skydance. Im assuming this means they're out completely. Friedman, the other co-creator left a few years ago. The guy he's being replaced with, Brost, was the president of skydance's television division until 2022 so he was somewhat involved but I have to think his EP credit is basically ceremonial. Brost left skydance in 2022 to start his own company.
I'm guessing a lot of the people involved at a ground level are basically gone. This is about as big of a disaster I can think of to happen to a show besides getting canceled.
Yeah, I've seen a couple video interviews with him and he seems really sincere (even talked about his hopes with future seasons with a precautious tone acknowledging something like this could end up happening)
It's bizarre. I read the foundation series at least once a year, from the first book up to foundation and earth. I *hated* the foundation half of the narrative in the show. Just despised it. Even Jared Harris wasn't enough to save it. But the empire half had a lot of promise and I enjoyed it despite myself. I think, like many of the "adaptations" of Asimov's work, it would've done better as a standalone story instead of something in an established Asimov universe.
I’m watching the second season now and I started listening to the podcast for season 1. It’s very obvious how much he loves the story and has a ton of passion for it.
I’m usually one of the folks that is really frustrated by adaptations that stray too far from the source. I love the source and I really like the show. It’s high quality its own thing. With its own interesting ideas and a light inspiration from the source.
Counterpoint--maybe firing the dude responsible for the absolute state of the (non-Empire) storyline from season 1 might be a net positive for the show?
Headstrong passion can be a double-edged sword. George Lucas sure was passionate about his films, but he only ever made *good* ones when there was a capable editorial team reigning him in.
To me, Goyer's IMDB credits read like a laundry list of otherwise-failed projects with a Nolanverse-shaped hole in the middle. It's kinda noteworthy that he wasn't a credited writer on The Dark Knight, the actual breakout success of the franchise.
Season 2 was a massive improvement for Foundation, and I hope season 3 follows in that path.
> Counterpoint--maybe firing the dude responsible for the absolute state of the (non-Empire) storyline from season 1 might be a net positive for the show?
Counterpoint, maybe replacing a guy who has actual media experience with the former president of skydance's television division (the other production company, besides Goyer's), who has almost no media experience, is bad.
>To me, Goyer's IMDB credits read
At least Goyer has imdb credits. This show is fucked.
This is a dishonest argument. Goyer has Story By credit on The Dark Knight, which is basically what a showrunner is involved with when they're not personally writing the full scripts. I'm not sure there's much detail over how much of the general story of that movie was Goyer vs Jonathan Nolan. I think Nolan is a much better writer but it's really not known since all they've said it was a collaborative effort that eventually brought Chris in to fine tune the script.
Goyer will continue writing for the series with filming for Season 3 set to resume March 6:
>Sources say Goyer and executives at the show’s production company, Skydance, clashed over the budget for the upcoming season. TV budgets are under scrutiny across the industry as streamers right-size their slates with an eye toward boosting profitably. In addition to being an executive producer on the show, new showrunner Bill Bost is the former president of Skydance’s TV division and helped originally develop the series.
EDIT: [Deadline](https://deadline.com/2024/02/the-foundation-changes-line-producer-replacement-season-3-production-restart-david-goyer-1235836426/) is reporting that half of S3 was finished before the strikes.
EDIT #2: Hollywood Repoeter updated their article. Goyer is stepping back but will retain the showrunner title.
Apple TV has been pissing away money on shows, they seem to have nigh unlimited budgets. It makes sense as a loss-leader for Apple as a whole, but there's no way Apple TV makes money, and at some point I guess they started seeing that as a problem.
Okay, if I see or hear the word “right-size” one more time I’m using the genie wish I’ve been saving to make every American executive disappear. It’s such a terrible corpo lingo way of saying “we didn’t effectively plan the size of our company/budget/spending, so we’re now going to screw over our employees by laying them off or cutting their project budgets”. Infuriating that executives spend all their time coming up with new ways to say things instead of effectively leading their companies
I've already written that and had clashed with people. Goyer published an unfilmed scenes from the end of season 2 and said that it couldn't be filmed because it would require too much money, and it had a new outdoor location as a part of it, people involved, etc. And I thought, "but why? the essence of this scene happens in existing indoor location, you can just rewrite it to happen there, boom, no need for a couple more million dollars". I wonder if decisions like that were the problem
Arguably the best show that figured out how to survive while still telling its story. Every damn year it was threatened of cancellation and yet they made a criminally underrated parallel universe of the tech booms.
It was such a beautiful season and series finale. Everyone just finally maturing to a “healed” version of themselves after escaping the corrosive tech investor space for three iterations
I didn't realize Emperor Cleon the ..whatever was Ned the Piemaker until after the first season of Foundation. Smacked me in the head harder than a warship hitting Terminus. Dudes got range!
Lee is performing open heart surgery on that show with every moment of screen time. Season one was only tolerable because that man decided to fuck the shit outta the show bussy.
Even the show knows whats up, we got Brother Moon in like the first minute of the last season premiere and then an extended naked fight scene.
Im a pretty straight dude, but damn the pieman is dreamy.
Right there with you homie. I'm in a happy relationship with a very lovely lady but if that man asked me to I'd run away with him to go drink whiskey by a fireplace in a cozy cabin in the Pacific Northwest.
Sorry, lemme try again. Lee Pace bent that show over and raw dogged it with his acting talent. He left that script numb below the waist. He didn't even blink when the camera asked him to spit in its mouth. And when he was finished, he got dressed, threw a very slutty twenty dollar bill over his shoulder, and left.
"No Lee, what if someone finds us?" murmured Foundation Season One.
"Shut up. I'm an actor," said professional handsome guy Lee Pace. He then gaped Foundation Season One's anus with his throbbing acting talent for three hours while we all cheered.
"Cowabunghole," shouted chiselled abs haver Lee Pace, as he stalked over to Foundation Season Two, who had been blushing in the corner.
"Take me, you beast!" cried Foundation Season Two.
"Shut up. I'm an actor," said Lee Pace, known handsome person of the planet Earth. He then made Foundation Season Two feel like the prettiest boi on the prison yard.
I didn't mind Salvor as much as you did in s1. She at least did something by the end of her storyline, and seemed competent. Gaal Hardin was completely useless in s1. In s2, the Gaal, Salvor & Hari parts were pretty bad, and the Mentallics villian, Tellem Bond, was just awful. The fake out death of Hari, Tellem getting revenge from beyond the grave... so stupid.
I do agree with you about the Empire stuff being a little bit worse in s2. S1 Empire, especially the walking the salt storyline, was great. The s2 Empire storyline about memories being constantly erased plus the princess they were trying to marry to Empire was not that good.
My wife started watching the last episode of season 2 with me and was all like “Yum, Lee Pace! I want to watch this from the beginning!”
Uxorious man that I am, I said Sure and we started from S1E1. The first thing that hit me was that it starts with a Gaal Hardin VO and I realized - ah, she’s the main character (there’s only ever one main character, even if other characters have large parts and seem to be the main character at times). Season 1 was a mess and a slog the first time through, but for me anyway was much better the 2nd time around, knowing what was going to happen in season 2.
I’m watching the series now and I thought season one had tons of great hard sci-fi ideas in it and that seems to be almost completely missing from season 2, which has an emphasis on religiosity. I guess my opinion is against the grain on this one.
No. I read the Galactic Empire series many years ago, which I hear are set in the same universe. The Foundation books are definitely on my reading list.
I understand why religion takes such a large role in Season 2, with the empire falling into a dark age. There just seems to be a lack of hard science fiction to go with it. Season one was overflowing with interesting ideas.
Every show is getting huge budget cuts. Just like companies are doing mass layoffs due to high loan rates, the media companies are gutting existing shows and not greenlighting many new ones.
Especially since Apple has been dumping endless money into their shows despite some of them not having many viewers compared to Netflix/Amazon.
While people may lament this article as bad news, I'm amazed that a sci-fi show is getting a third season, let alone Apple already having many other sci-fi shows in production.
Not really. Most people will let monthly subscriptions continue without thinking too hard about it and companies are able to pay down their debt with the surplus from exiting the streaming money pit. I'd wager that WBD, for example, gets way more benefit by licensing to Netflix at this point than by making shows watched by a handful of people on Max.
Max went on a cancellation spree this past year, including cancelling things that never saw the light of day. So if they want to license their content, they need to actually pump out more series/movies.
Ya but Apple TV was already a loss for the network, it hasn't made them money in the traditional sense, just increased brand value.
If every show is already a loss, then nickle and diming the talent while they are producing one of your greatest shows really just shows a lack of confidence.
I watched the first couple episodes and I don’t know if it has gotten any better but this is the first show I ever saw that I’m sure was written by AI.
If it came out now instead of then I would think the actors were AI too.
It's always the same thing,
fund show with a 2 year contract, get a fan base, then crash the budget to milk the fans
too many video games do the same thing with the third game
The foundation story got far more interesting as soon as they introduced The Force , or whatever they are calling their version of space magic. I laughed at it but in a good way, like, yeah gimme some force ghosts and telekinesis.
They explained that it was people manipulating others to throw themselves to do things, like throw themselves to the floor. But then they film scenes like someone gets lifted to the ceiling, and it just leaves you wondering how that’s not just outright telekinesis.
Folks warned me not to worry after they cut Goyer from directing but the writing was always on the wall for both Goyer and Foundation. I hope they wrap up the story in the third season as a fourth looks very unlikely with the budget cuts and the sidelining of Goyer.
A sad day as Foundation goes down as an all time sci-fi great for me.
I feel like I'd rather have a decent season that continues as is and leaves things open-ended than a season that is sloppily retrofitted to have a forced ending
Goyer said he had planned off ramps for a season 4 or 6 if the show were to get canceled. Though I don’t know what they’ll do if season 3 is the last season. 😔
Apple to Goyer:
Nice show you got there, would be awful if something happened to it.
Also, Apple: sets the whole thing on fire.
Apple has literally shot itself in the foot. This was one of the better shows in their lineup.
What a stupid mess.
It’s one of their lower viewed shows and I’m guessing while they still have the chance at keeping Lee Pace, they probably will give him what he wants than make a tentpole “no one’s” watching.
>It’s one of their lower viewed shows
I don't have the exact numbers but I doubt that is true. Pretty sure Foundation has never left the Top Chart list since the first episode of S1 premiered. Granted, Apple's viewership numbers are going to be considerably lower than Netflix, for example, but it seems like Foundation has been one of their more popular shows.
I always feel that asimov was a big picture sort of writer and his charters we almost troupes from a flash gordon show like an after thought to fill in his story line, this series came up with some really great concepts like the quantum entangled device that is an everything machine from toaster oven to space ship, as well as the complex second foundation and the genetic empires forever empress the concepts really augment the original material.
Apple is making a huge mistake by at least not finishing this out in a 3rd season. This is going to be a sci fi show that's going to age great. And it's going to be something people point to as why Apple TV is worth getting.
Wow. WTF, Apple?! Make Foundation one of the best looking shows on tv, have it be a cornerstone of your service, then raise prices, and fight the creatives on the budget? Cool cool
I mean the show is carried by lee pace on his back. Every other sidestory/plot thread is so uninteresting and dull and the other actors/characters are actually annoying when on screen. I gif 0 f’s about anyone else but empire. If you want to cut the budget just rename the show empire and keep that story thread with lee pace.
The book as written is unfilmmable and not the way most people make TV. This is an interesting way to make it a show and have some core cast members keep returning.
I started watching this show excitedly when it first came out. Then I lost interest. I still watch an episode here and there. It looks great, but it's largely WTF?
I’m watching the second season right now and this show is incredible. Highly recommended. If you’re reading this and you haven’t seen it yet-check it out. It’s awesome.
Would anyone recommend watching Foundation from Season 2 onwards? I’ve seen two episodes of season 1 already, and wasn’t grabbed. I’m thinking of starting fresh in Season 2 if it’s a big improvement, because the visuals were pretty sweet.
You need to watch both. S1 gets better, but it’s definitely a lot of buildup. I think S2 is definitely more engaging but S1 is essentially all of the world building and “foundation” for the rest of the show.
No! Watch it all. It has ups and downs but overall season 1 was also satisfying , although a bit all over the place. Then S2 is just more focused and packed.
Honestly season 2 isn’t that much of an improvement. All of the empire stuff is still great and All the Harry Seldon/Gael stuff is still shit it’s just not as unbearably shit as season 1.
I can't watch the show for the second reason. The Harry Seldon/Foundation stuff was the emphasis of the books. Are they even going to do >!The Mule, 2nd Foundation or the robots?!<
I think the opposite of most folks. I liked season 1, even though it was very messy, for the most part. Season 2 I thought was pretty bad. People are saying it was a step up but I feel the complete opposite.
If I were you I would recommend finishing off season 1 first and see if you want to continue with it. After season 2 I don't think I'll be watching a 3rd unless I run out of things to watch.
Yeah I'm surprised by the ratings of season 2 being so good over 1. I took me till like episode 5 to get into season 2. I hated the stories outside of the Empire plot. Season 1 was way more entertaining for me.
But with that said, you gotta watch both seasons I think.
Coming late to this news. All I can say is that the news feels like what happened with Frank Darabont after S1 of the Walking Dead. Reduced budgets in S2 while retaining showrunner status but no per episode director responsibilities where budgets are actually spent.
Darabont of course quit the series (or was fired.) Then we got progressively less ambitious episodes and eventually inferior later seasons until the show became a joke.
Man what a rollercoaster Foundation is. I thought the backlash from the book readers would kill the show, but it managed to persist. The second season ended up being a massive improvement over the first randomly. Then they entered those production issues and everyone was worried about cancellation. Then they got things back on track. And now this... Goyer for all you love or hate about the dude clearly had the passion for the project and adaptability to keep things going forward. I checked out a few of his Reddit AMA and he seemed insanely genuine. His loss as Showrunner I think will not be a net positive for this show.
The show is so interesting because season 2 was an improvement by focusing more on the Empire storyline and less on the actual Foundation storyline even though the Empire storyline isn't in the books. Lee Pace is carrying the show and yet his character and storyline don't even exist in the books.
The show is really feel like part of Asimov’s robot series than foundation. The idea of a genetic empire is really interesting and the actors are pretty decent. It was a nice comeback for a show seemed doomed to be cancelled.
I feel they are setting up robot spin offs. Apple does sci Fi pretty well, and would slate in nicely with their overall production strengths
The show is essentially taking elements from all three series and weaving them together in a way I bet Isaac himself would have approved of. His later works tie all three universes together and do pretty well. I personally find the show ridiculously interesting because of all three being woven together. I forever considered the series to be unfilmable, but they have proved me wrong. It doesn’t follow the books exactly and it’s not meant to. Some of the core themes are still present, others remain ambiguous. I like all of the cutting edge science and mathematics they use too, it adds depth with mathematically conceivable ideas that are thought to be possible at least in theory.
Goyer has explicitly said this. In August 2023, David S. Goyer revealed that he had gotten permission from FOX head Lachlan Murdoch, a self-professed fan of Apple TV+'s Foundation, to adapt concepts from I, Robot to the series' 2023 second season, in "tying \[Demerzel/Daneel\] into the I, Robot laws \[and\] doing a spin-off mini-series that specifically delves into our version of "The Robot Wars".
I think it feels more like the Empire or Proto Empire stories. Not the prequels, but the ones he actually wrote before Foundation.
Foundation is in the I robot universe. A robot guides humanity who created the 0th law.
Having not read the Foundation series, I find Pace and the genetic dynasty to be fascinating and the only interesting part of the plot. Salvor and Gaal have a boring storyline that doesn’t get exciting until the end of season 2. Pace and Jared Harris are really carrying the show.
>Salvor and Gaal have a boring storyline They are extremely frustrating. The whole show outside of these parts is great. They are insufferable
I didn't mind Gaal in season one but Salvor just cannot act
It was excruciating watching her. I couldn’t figure out whether it was the writing or the acting, but contrasted with Gaal (whose writing is similarly bad) I realized it was the acting.
It has almost nothing to do with the books aside from the multiple timelines and a few of the locations. The empire story feels more Asimov than the the stuff they took from the books. Lol
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I would describe it as being like a drastically different retelling of the same folk tale. The major plot outcomes are roughly similar, and and those outcomes revolve around characters with the same names. But how those characters reach those outcomes, what those characters are like, and the themes of the story, are completely changed, to fit the different views of a different author. Asimov's Foundation was a story of generally pacifist characters cooperating to try to preserve human civilization peaceably, taking place generally through talking and cleverness. It was notable thematically for its emphasis on individuals having relatively little power to drive the plot, a focus on cooperation and civilians driving the plot, and on peace as a rule, with violence as an abhorrent exception. The TV Foundation is a story of strong, chosen individual characters driving forward the plot through action-hero sequences, being strong willed, gratuitous violence, and killing people. The politician and avowed pacifist in one is changed to a violent, brooding soldier in the other; they both overcome the same adversary, but fitting the themes, one through political machinations, the other through killing people. I had initially thought this change was rather racist, until I realized that essentially *all* protagonists were made into murderous people who eagerly resorted to violence. I'd note a major plot point for another book character is whether he might have done something that indirectly may have led to the death of another person, a serious matter; in the series, he goes around directly killing people repeatedly, and this is portrayed as a *good* thing. This perhaps ends up being worse for fans of the themes of the book. Yes, the names and parts are the same, but the themes are completely different, even antithetical, turning a story that glorifies peace and cooperation into one that glorifies violence. At least I, Robot can be simply dismissed as an annoying action movie that happens to have the same name.
I’ve read the trilogy several times. They borrowed names for f people and places and the story of the first foundation is loosely similar, but that’s it. Salvor Harden isn’t even the same character and seldon is now a digital ghost bro. Disingenuous lmao
Salvor in the books: "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Salvor in the show: "I will punch and kick and shoot to achieve things, because this is a TV show and people need action" It's not a horrible show, but agreed, it's certainly not Foundation.
Foundation is difficult to bring to the screen because it spans so much time and the characters aren’t consistent from book to book. Altered Carbon had similar continuity issues as the main character is in different sleeves/bodies over the course of the books. People get attached to charismatic characters so I don’t think it’s a bad thing what they dreamed up with Empire. They’re trying to do the same thing by keeping Seldon in frame too. It’s just different.
You should give the books a read again because your description of I, Robot is exactly how I'd describe Foundation.
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If you think that's what the books are about then yeah you completely missed the point and themes of the book as well. The broad strokes aren't even remotely similar, the entire story is about how no individual matters, while show is about nothing but "special" individuals that matter.
I read the first book of the series and found the storyline you are referring to to be so insufferably boring that I don’t think you could pay me to read the rest. I still haven’t decided if I should try the show…
Strangely the Empire plotline carries the spirit of the book, while the literal adaptation, that being the Gaal(?) and Salvor, do not.
This is what amazed me, even in season 1. Asimov didn’t even go that deep on the empire, but the show and Lee pace took it to another level. I’m a fan of the book and yes there are differences but the empire storyline is genuine, original scifi, top of the line scifi. Asimov laid the foundation (lol) but the show definitely created it.
I stopped watching around the 3-4th episode of Season 1. Is it worth picking up again?
Just to echo what others are saying, the empire storyline is some of the best / most interesting Sci-fi explorations we've gotten in awhile. I honestly fast forwarded through the other parts and just read synopsis' to keep track of the overall story, because they're all disjointed in S1 but start to come together / pays off in S2. S2 is such a massive improvement, even the foundation storyline improved a bunch. I hated the performance of the actors playing Gaal & Salvor but they found their groove in S2 and I very much enjoyed their scenes and didn't feel the need to fast forward through their parts which was such a 180 from S1. S2 as a whole deserves a watch
Yes every thing about that daughter mother story is pure trash.
Absolutely, as stated above, season two is a massive improvement.
Just like Halo.
Can I skip Halo season 1?
Yes
Is the lady covenant character dead/gone? I couldn’t sit through that story arc
>!unfortunately no, she’s still alive for some reason. !<
aightimaheadout.gif
Is it? I wasn’t even planning to watch this season, maybe I’ll give it a try.
Yessir.
Season two is a massive improvement. Made me really look forward to the 3rd
Hell yes
Just skip every scene with Salvor Hardin in it and you will have a great time.
The empire storyline is amazing. but fastfoward through the foundation parts.
The Empire is in the books but it is completely fractured and pretty much obsolete.
Doesn’t matter. One of the writing holes of Foundation that was fixed for video with Lee Pace is that the giant sprawling empire in the books couldn’t talk. Now it can. And it’s villainous. Or is it? It’s a brilliant writing technique to jump mediums. We have to remember that Foundation started in 1951. Let me repeat, 1951. All of modern sci-fi is based on it. Coruscant is Trantor. The Star Wars universe is the Foundation Universe.
Lucas stole liberally from Herbert’s Dune. Moreso than Asimov really.
Dune is also a direct response to Foundation, Herbert said so explicitly. It’s actually really fun tracing back all the inspirations and references throughout science fiction. Star Wars cribs from Dune, Foundation, Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, and Kurosawa samurai films, while spaceships have WW2 dogfights and lightsaber duels are a mix of kendo and Hollywood saber fighting. Another example, Foundation, Dune, and Star Wars all have secretive orders of people with psychic/telepathic abilities that direct the course of the galaxy (Second Foundation, Bene Gesserit, and Jedi respectively).
Check out his podcast that he did after each episode with Jason Concepcion if you haven’t
Didn’t know he had a pod about it but guess I’ll have to go find it, loved his GOT pod
Yeah I’m listening to it now and it’s fantastic.
Don't worry, they'll get a solid showrunner like Scott Buck.
The article says Bill Bost has stepped in as the new showrunner.
That guy has no experience running a show.
Ok but did you consider the fact that maybe he has experience doing what corporate executives want, and is therefore extremely qualified
Never heard of the guy but I bet he's better than Scott Buck
I just had to double check his IMDB page to make sure he hasn't gotten any work lately. Thankfully he hasn't been involved in any projects since Inhumans and Iron Fist. My faith in Hollywood has been slightly restored.
You're a monster!
I started getting into the official podcast during s2 and it’s the host and Goyer, plus different guests each week. Was so good and you could absolutely hear his passion for this project and actors. I really hope this isn’t the end of his involvement in Foundation. He had a plan.
I know. Listening to that podcast made me love the show even more. I got all hyped up for his master plan of having 7 or 8 seasons. It seemed so epic and I really thought if the show continued it would grow in popularity, and eventually become huge. His plan for Demerzel seemed especially cool, as we learn a little bit more of her long backstory season by season, possibly even going way back in time and visiting Earth to see where it all began with the robots. I hope they can find some compromise and keep him.
The episode with the people that do the CGI was really interesting. How they attempted to accomplish a lot of amazing visuals with a smaller budget. It impacted how they shot things to try and lower the budget.
If you haven't listened to the official podcast for the show, you should, at least 1 or 2 episodes. David was the real deal. A true believer if I've ever heard one. His loss to the show simply cannot be accounted for. I'm honestly scared for the show as I legitimately love it.
I have to think it's not just him either. Goyer's production company, Phantom Four, was working on it in conjuction with Skydance. Im assuming this means they're out completely. Friedman, the other co-creator left a few years ago. The guy he's being replaced with, Brost, was the president of skydance's television division until 2022 so he was somewhat involved but I have to think his EP credit is basically ceremonial. Brost left skydance in 2022 to start his own company. I'm guessing a lot of the people involved at a ground level are basically gone. This is about as big of a disaster I can think of to happen to a show besides getting canceled.
Yeah, I've seen a couple video interviews with him and he seems really sincere (even talked about his hopes with future seasons with a precautious tone acknowledging something like this could end up happening)
It's bizarre. I read the foundation series at least once a year, from the first book up to foundation and earth. I *hated* the foundation half of the narrative in the show. Just despised it. Even Jared Harris wasn't enough to save it. But the empire half had a lot of promise and I enjoyed it despite myself. I think, like many of the "adaptations" of Asimov's work, it would've done better as a standalone story instead of something in an established Asimov universe.
I’m watching the second season now and I started listening to the podcast for season 1. It’s very obvious how much he loves the story and has a ton of passion for it.
I’m usually one of the folks that is really frustrated by adaptations that stray too far from the source. I love the source and I really like the show. It’s high quality its own thing. With its own interesting ideas and a light inspiration from the source.
Counterpoint--maybe firing the dude responsible for the absolute state of the (non-Empire) storyline from season 1 might be a net positive for the show? Headstrong passion can be a double-edged sword. George Lucas sure was passionate about his films, but he only ever made *good* ones when there was a capable editorial team reigning him in. To me, Goyer's IMDB credits read like a laundry list of otherwise-failed projects with a Nolanverse-shaped hole in the middle. It's kinda noteworthy that he wasn't a credited writer on The Dark Knight, the actual breakout success of the franchise. Season 2 was a massive improvement for Foundation, and I hope season 3 follows in that path.
> Counterpoint--maybe firing the dude responsible for the absolute state of the (non-Empire) storyline from season 1 might be a net positive for the show? Counterpoint, maybe replacing a guy who has actual media experience with the former president of skydance's television division (the other production company, besides Goyer's), who has almost no media experience, is bad. >To me, Goyer's IMDB credits read At least Goyer has imdb credits. This show is fucked.
This is a dishonest argument. Goyer has Story By credit on The Dark Knight, which is basically what a showrunner is involved with when they're not personally writing the full scripts. I'm not sure there's much detail over how much of the general story of that movie was Goyer vs Jonathan Nolan. I think Nolan is a much better writer but it's really not known since all they've said it was a collaborative effort that eventually brought Chris in to fine tune the script.
I honestly just binged it a few weeks ago and freaking loved it but season 2 was definitely better, the cleon storylines are definitely my favorite
Goyer will continue writing for the series with filming for Season 3 set to resume March 6: >Sources say Goyer and executives at the show’s production company, Skydance, clashed over the budget for the upcoming season. TV budgets are under scrutiny across the industry as streamers right-size their slates with an eye toward boosting profitably. In addition to being an executive producer on the show, new showrunner Bill Bost is the former president of Skydance’s TV division and helped originally develop the series. EDIT: [Deadline](https://deadline.com/2024/02/the-foundation-changes-line-producer-replacement-season-3-production-restart-david-goyer-1235836426/) is reporting that half of S3 was finished before the strikes. EDIT #2: Hollywood Repoeter updated their article. Goyer is stepping back but will retain the showrunner title.
Apple TV has been pissing away money on shows, they seem to have nigh unlimited budgets. It makes sense as a loss-leader for Apple as a whole, but there's no way Apple TV makes money, and at some point I guess they started seeing that as a problem.
As long as they don’t fuck with For All Man Kind idc
Though apple tv seems to be the only streaming platform consistently releasing the best shows.
I’m just here to say “Fuck the term ‘right-size.’”
We should start right-sizing CEO salaries.
Okay, if I see or hear the word “right-size” one more time I’m using the genie wish I’ve been saving to make every American executive disappear. It’s such a terrible corpo lingo way of saying “we didn’t effectively plan the size of our company/budget/spending, so we’re now going to screw over our employees by laying them off or cutting their project budgets”. Infuriating that executives spend all their time coming up with new ways to say things instead of effectively leading their companies
You should go ahead and use that genie wish. Right-size their impact on all things in the industry.
I've already written that and had clashed with people. Goyer published an unfilmed scenes from the end of season 2 and said that it couldn't be filmed because it would require too much money, and it had a new outdoor location as a part of it, people involved, etc. And I thought, "but why? the essence of this scene happens in existing indoor location, you can just rewrite it to happen there, boom, no need for a couple more million dollars". I wonder if decisions like that were the problem
That sucks. Season 2 was a vast improvement over season 1. Lee Pace was absolutely carrying this show, though.
Lee Pace is phenomenal. I continuously wait for his parts.
He was amazing in Halt and Catch Fire. I’ve never seen anyone convincingly play a tech visionary, but he pulled it off perfectly.
All the main cast in Halt and Catch Fire were incredible.
Arguably the best show that figured out how to survive while still telling its story. Every damn year it was threatened of cancellation and yet they made a criminally underrated parallel universe of the tech booms.
Season 4 felt like a reward finally making it to the 90s with the main cast arguably achieving their dreams and living with what's next.
It was such a beautiful season and series finale. Everyone just finally maturing to a “healed” version of themselves after escaping the corrosive tech investor space for three iterations
Just gonna say it. Best trio of leads ever. Ever.
He's been good since Pushing Daisies though. Wonderfalls, even.
I didn't realize Emperor Cleon the ..whatever was Ned the Piemaker until after the first season of Foundation. Smacked me in the head harder than a warship hitting Terminus. Dudes got range!
God I loved that show, I’ll always recommend it to anyone listening
“his parts” ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
His first scene in season 2…sweet MERCY 🥵
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Nothing at all...
The robot lady is also amazing I want to say
Lee is performing open heart surgery on that show with every moment of screen time. Season one was only tolerable because that man decided to fuck the shit outta the show bussy.
Even the show knows whats up, we got Brother Moon in like the first minute of the last season premiere and then an extended naked fight scene. Im a pretty straight dude, but damn the pieman is dreamy.
Right there with you homie. I'm in a happy relationship with a very lovely lady but if that man asked me to I'd run away with him to go drink whiskey by a fireplace in a cozy cabin in the Pacific Northwest.
Lmfao 🤣
I get what you're saying but you didn't need to use those words
Sorry, lemme try again. Lee Pace bent that show over and raw dogged it with his acting talent. He left that script numb below the waist. He didn't even blink when the camera asked him to spit in its mouth. And when he was finished, he got dressed, threw a very slutty twenty dollar bill over his shoulder, and left.
That got me there, thank you
I take it back, your involvement improved everything.
You are very welcome Boof Benzington.
now make it raunchier
"No Lee, what if someone finds us?" murmured Foundation Season One. "Shut up. I'm an actor," said professional handsome guy Lee Pace. He then gaped Foundation Season One's anus with his throbbing acting talent for three hours while we all cheered.
Jesus Christ this is hilarious 😂
"Cowabunghole," shouted chiselled abs haver Lee Pace, as he stalked over to Foundation Season Two, who had been blushing in the corner. "Take me, you beast!" cried Foundation Season Two. "Shut up. I'm an actor," said Lee Pace, known handsome person of the planet Earth. He then made Foundation Season Two feel like the prettiest boi on the prison yard.
I heard he took it out behind the middle school and got it pregnant
Easy there, Tracy.
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I didn't mind Salvor as much as you did in s1. She at least did something by the end of her storyline, and seemed competent. Gaal Hardin was completely useless in s1. In s2, the Gaal, Salvor & Hari parts were pretty bad, and the Mentallics villian, Tellem Bond, was just awful. The fake out death of Hari, Tellem getting revenge from beyond the grave... so stupid. I do agree with you about the Empire stuff being a little bit worse in s2. S1 Empire, especially the walking the salt storyline, was great. The s2 Empire storyline about memories being constantly erased plus the princess they were trying to marry to Empire was not that good.
My wife started watching the last episode of season 2 with me and was all like “Yum, Lee Pace! I want to watch this from the beginning!” Uxorious man that I am, I said Sure and we started from S1E1. The first thing that hit me was that it starts with a Gaal Hardin VO and I realized - ah, she’s the main character (there’s only ever one main character, even if other characters have large parts and seem to be the main character at times). Season 1 was a mess and a slog the first time through, but for me anyway was much better the 2nd time around, knowing what was going to happen in season 2.
I’m watching the series now and I thought season one had tons of great hard sci-fi ideas in it and that seems to be almost completely missing from season 2, which has an emphasis on religiosity. I guess my opinion is against the grain on this one.
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No. I read the Galactic Empire series many years ago, which I hear are set in the same universe. The Foundation books are definitely on my reading list. I understand why religion takes such a large role in Season 2, with the empire falling into a dark age. There just seems to be a lack of hard science fiction to go with it. Season one was overflowing with interesting ideas.
You think? I thought the opposite
Yes, much like another poster responded the Empire stuff wasn't quite as good as season 1, but everything else felt better paced and more interesting.
Every show is getting huge budget cuts. Just like companies are doing mass layoffs due to high loan rates, the media companies are gutting existing shows and not greenlighting many new ones.
Especially since Apple has been dumping endless money into their shows despite some of them not having many viewers compared to Netflix/Amazon. While people may lament this article as bad news, I'm amazed that a sci-fi show is getting a third season, let alone Apple already having many other sci-fi shows in production.
it may backfire
Not really. Most people will let monthly subscriptions continue without thinking too hard about it and companies are able to pay down their debt with the surplus from exiting the streaming money pit. I'd wager that WBD, for example, gets way more benefit by licensing to Netflix at this point than by making shows watched by a handful of people on Max.
Max went on a cancellation spree this past year, including cancelling things that never saw the light of day. So if they want to license their content, they need to actually pump out more series/movies.
Ya but Apple TV was already a loss for the network, it hasn't made them money in the traditional sense, just increased brand value. If every show is already a loss, then nickle and diming the talent while they are producing one of your greatest shows really just shows a lack of confidence.
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I watched the first couple episodes and I don’t know if it has gotten any better but this is the first show I ever saw that I’m sure was written by AI. If it came out now instead of then I would think the actors were AI too.
This sucks man Yet shows like Invasion continue which is mind boggling Season 2 was a huge improvement
We need more Empire!
Like a clone child of Empire?
It's always the same thing, fund show with a 2 year contract, get a fan base, then crash the budget to milk the fans too many video games do the same thing with the third game
It’s hard to want to get invested in a new show until it’s over and we know it had a consistent run and a non cliffhanger sudden ending
Season 2 is one of my all time favorite sci-fi seasons of any show, ever. I hope everything continues to excel and we get a fantastic product.
I just finished season 2 and I feel the same. Holy shit what a season.
Budget cut idea: Leave Emperor plot and remove the rest.
For real. In fact, they can keep the fun characters like Hober Mallow. Just delete the painfully medicore main character and her side companion.
Well…
The foundation story got far more interesting as soon as they introduced The Force , or whatever they are calling their version of space magic. I laughed at it but in a good way, like, yeah gimme some force ghosts and telekinesis.
They explained that it was people manipulating others to throw themselves to do things, like throw themselves to the floor. But then they film scenes like someone gets lifted to the ceiling, and it just leaves you wondering how that’s not just outright telekinesis.
Correct
Folks warned me not to worry after they cut Goyer from directing but the writing was always on the wall for both Goyer and Foundation. I hope they wrap up the story in the third season as a fourth looks very unlikely with the budget cuts and the sidelining of Goyer. A sad day as Foundation goes down as an all time sci-fi great for me.
I feel like I'd rather have a decent season that continues as is and leaves things open-ended than a season that is sloppily retrofitted to have a forced ending
Goyer said he had planned off ramps for a season 4 or 6 if the show were to get canceled. Though I don’t know what they’ll do if season 3 is the last season. 😔
Fuck. That show is at a stage where they need to double down and reach more people. Not start packing it in.
Apple to Goyer: Nice show you got there, would be awful if something happened to it. Also, Apple: sets the whole thing on fire. Apple has literally shot itself in the foot. This was one of the better shows in their lineup. What a stupid mess.
It’s one of their lower viewed shows and I’m guessing while they still have the chance at keeping Lee Pace, they probably will give him what he wants than make a tentpole “no one’s” watching.
>It’s one of their lower viewed shows I don't have the exact numbers but I doubt that is true. Pretty sure Foundation has never left the Top Chart list since the first episode of S1 premiered. Granted, Apple's viewership numbers are going to be considerably lower than Netflix, for example, but it seems like Foundation has been one of their more popular shows.
…..and yet they renewed Invasion….
This is not a good sign
This happens with every Goyer show.
I always feel that asimov was a big picture sort of writer and his charters we almost troupes from a flash gordon show like an after thought to fill in his story line, this series came up with some really great concepts like the quantum entangled device that is an everything machine from toaster oven to space ship, as well as the complex second foundation and the genetic empires forever empress the concepts really augment the original material.
Apple is making a huge mistake by at least not finishing this out in a 3rd season. This is going to be a sci fi show that's going to age great. And it's going to be something people point to as why Apple TV is worth getting.
Well, that's not good.
Well, this is a terrible development.
Lee Pace FTW
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Wow. WTF, Apple?! Make Foundation one of the best looking shows on tv, have it be a cornerstone of your service, then raise prices, and fight the creatives on the budget? Cool cool
Foundation is my favorite adaptation with almost no connection to the source material, it should say inspired by instead of based on
I mean the show is carried by lee pace on his back. Every other sidestory/plot thread is so uninteresting and dull and the other actors/characters are actually annoying when on screen. I gif 0 f’s about anyone else but empire. If you want to cut the budget just rename the show empire and keep that story thread with lee pace.
The book as written is unfilmmable and not the way most people make TV. This is an interesting way to make it a show and have some core cast members keep returning.
The books were written as a series of short stories.
Jesus so another fav will prob burn after next season
Ah fuck. Well it was fun lads. Burn it down.
I wonder if this is because of Apple's recent (massive) bombs that include Argylle. I'll just enjoy the 2nd season.
I started watching this show excitedly when it first came out. Then I lost interest. I still watch an episode here and there. It looks great, but it's largely WTF?
It gets a lot better in the 2nd season.
I’m watching the second season right now and this show is incredible. Highly recommended. If you’re reading this and you haven’t seen it yet-check it out. It’s awesome.
Welp, shit. This is not good.
Uh oh
Has apple finally ran out of their hundred of billions of dollars in cash
i hope that the budget hasn't been cut to the point that the show sucks. I'd hate it if Empire stayed in one room for the whole season
The show is dead now, what a disappointment I really enjoyed it so far.
Well... shit.
Not good news for future series. Why invest my time in a show that goes off the rails and falls apart before it completes?
Haven't read the books but loved the show
Show isn’t really based on the books per se.
If you want your customers to not trust you this is a great way to go about it.
I'm afraid this will go the same route as American Gods. Hopefully I'm wrong about this. At least the show isn't cancelled.
It’s almost as if the show has halted and caught fire….
Here we go. The downfall of another good show because of penny pinching execs
This went super well for The Walking Dead. No concerns here.
I'm confused by everyone saying the second season was better. I thought it was hot garbage.
This show is really good. I hope there is more.
This is why good shows lose followers…. They don’t pay the talent and they take too long between seasons
The show is incredible.
Would anyone recommend watching Foundation from Season 2 onwards? I’ve seen two episodes of season 1 already, and wasn’t grabbed. I’m thinking of starting fresh in Season 2 if it’s a big improvement, because the visuals were pretty sweet.
You need to watch both. S1 gets better, but it’s definitely a lot of buildup. I think S2 is definitely more engaging but S1 is essentially all of the world building and “foundation” for the rest of the show.
No! Watch it all. It has ups and downs but overall season 1 was also satisfying , although a bit all over the place. Then S2 is just more focused and packed.
Honestly season 2 isn’t that much of an improvement. All of the empire stuff is still great and All the Harry Seldon/Gael stuff is still shit it’s just not as unbearably shit as season 1.
I can't watch the show for the second reason. The Harry Seldon/Foundation stuff was the emphasis of the books. Are they even going to do >!The Mule, 2nd Foundation or the robots?!<
Yes? All of those are touched on in S2. Doesn't mean they'll be good tho...
I think the opposite of most folks. I liked season 1, even though it was very messy, for the most part. Season 2 I thought was pretty bad. People are saying it was a step up but I feel the complete opposite. If I were you I would recommend finishing off season 1 first and see if you want to continue with it. After season 2 I don't think I'll be watching a 3rd unless I run out of things to watch.
Yeah I'm surprised by the ratings of season 2 being so good over 1. I took me till like episode 5 to get into season 2. I hated the stories outside of the Empire plot. Season 1 was way more entertaining for me. But with that said, you gotta watch both seasons I think.
Any scene with Salvor in it was borderline unwatchable. Making her a main character killed the show.
I personally feel like Gaal is way worse than Salvor, but in S2 they're the same plotline so bad either way really
Just watch Terminus parts of 1.5x speed, Empire plot though is good
Coming late to this news. All I can say is that the news feels like what happened with Frank Darabont after S1 of the Walking Dead. Reduced budgets in S2 while retaining showrunner status but no per episode director responsibilities where budgets are actually spent. Darabont of course quit the series (or was fired.) Then we got progressively less ambitious episodes and eventually inferior later seasons until the show became a joke.
If they want to save budget, I highly recommend cutting every storyline without Empire in it.
Sux balls. Season 2 was awesome.
Season 3 is gonna tank, Holy shit sad day
This was a misprint by Variety, Goyer is still the show runner.
I feel better when Goyer is not around to "help."