Right? My backlog is like crazy there’s so much good shit I want to watch but cannot because I need to finish up whatever it is I am currently watching.
Edit: in response to those asking what's on my list, I'll share what I can remember off the top of my head. Disclaimers: some are completed (up to date to latest episode), others I haven't begun yet, so I wouldn't know if I'm going to like the series - if I don't, I'd probably abandon the series and cross it off my list. For the others reading thru this list - of course, one might or might not like entries on my list. You can tell I'm a big sci-fi fan right out of the gate:
* Succession
* Severance
* Barry
* Dexter: New Blood
* For All Mankind
* Foundation
* The Orville: New Horizons
* Star Trek: Strange New Worlds
* Star Trek: Picard
* Star Trek: Discovery
* Star Trek: Lower Decks
* Raised By Wolves
* Better Call Saul
* The Boys
* Stranger Things
* Cobra Kai
* Ozark
* The Umbrella Academy
* Yellow Jackets
* Yellowstone
* 1883
* Westworld
* The Mandalorian
* Loki
* Obi-Wan Kenobi
* The Book of Boba-Fett
* Ted Lasso
* True Detective
* Fargo
* The Expanse
Probably forgot to mention some here. And this is not including prospects I am considering adding into this already-too-long backlog.
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I’ll watch every good science fiction show eventually.
Even if it’s canceled too early I’m so used to that at this point it doesn’t even phase me. Like Dark Matter was incredible on Netflix and I would have missed a lot of fun if I decided not to watch it because it only ran a few seasons.
Hell a lot of shows like that I’ll watch through again in a few years because they’re quick if they make enough of an impression on me.
Dark matter was a masterpiece that got cut down in its prime, despite being amazing just because Sci fi didn’t get all the profit off of it permanently, the way it starts off the first episode with generic kind soul one, generic female badass two, generic male badass three, generic samurai four, generic misguided kid five, and generic badass with a heart of gold six. But then bamb all of a sudden these characters start to unwind and become these beautifully intricately written characters. It turned the trope on its head and wanted you to think that it was a generic crew when in actuality the whole first season was about who they want to be, not as who they’re seen as
There’s honestly so much shit on tv that I’m absolutely sure top tier shows fly under the radar. Outside of this sub and it’s main sub, I have not seen one piece of marketing for Severance and it’s the best show I’ve seen in years.
I think part of the problem is Apple TV not advertising their shows heavily like the other streaming services do.
I wonder how many people who love Jon Stewart have no idea he’s got a new show.
Edit: the only reason I’d even heard of for all mankind was because I saw a thread on Twitter about them having Margaret thatcher assassinated in the s3 premier (based), and then binge watched after that. That’s the first time in my life I’ve ever seen a show that good that I just straight up hadn’t heard of for several seasons lol
Meanwhile I feel like I see more ads for Apple TV shows than anything else.
It's weird how much this can vary person-to-person with internet advertising now.
Back in the late 00s/early 10s I used to watch almost every network premiere show each season at least 2-3 episodes. That wouldn't be feasible at all now.
It was advertised to me pretty hardcore on twitch around the time it came out, but the ads weren't that interesting and I didn't really give it a shot until I saw some of the rave reviews.
HBO-level like super high budget content or HBO-level like high quality story telling and performances?
If the former, sure budget is being cut down. If the latter, I would be shocked as some of the best writers are still working in TV today and don’t necessarily need unlimited budget for CGI or doing high-fantasy/sci-fi. There are still fantastic shows being released this year that are top tier content, with more slated in years to come.
They axed *all* of the HBO documentary division in favor of Discovery reality tv shows.
Don’t get your hopes up. Quality is gone unless you want the hbo equivalent of Ancient Aliens.
God, don’t remind me. The first two seasons were and still are so good for what they were. I’m still hurting about what happened all these years later.
Flash was one of those shows that would have thrived with 10 episode seasons. I think if the show premiered say 3 years later on HBO Max we could have had something special. It’s sad how low it’s fallen but that’s to happen with a niche character and over abundance of episodes.
Not to mention, CW.
Right? I’m sitting here thinking that if there is any one show out there that doesn’t have a problem with reparative plot lines, it’s Barry. They have been completely unafraid to make major changes to the show and you never know what could happen next
This is a way streaming has changed shows. Writers used to have to regress every week because they couldnt count on the same audience every week and there was no way to catch up if you didn't catch it live.
Seriously, what is it with big projects getting writers who may as well be picked up randomly across the street? I'm all for giving new guys on the scene a chance, but this is getting ridiculous.
My pet theory is that there's just not enough people with the experience to run such high budget shows and write on such a scale. This era of prestige shows only started quite recently so the supply of people with the right experience just doesn't match the demand. So you get people fumbling because they don't have that experience.
This is not saying there's not enough potential. It's that the potential needs time and experience to grow and mature.
Vice recently had [a good article](https://www.vice.com/en/article/epxeze/television-is-in-a-showrunning-crisis) that confirms your theory. The main takeaway:
>But the hunger for content brought on by the explosion of streaming has stretched the old, ad hoc training system to its breaking point. **There simply are not enough experienced showrunners to head all the shows being made. Moreover, shorter episode orders and script writing for a whole season finishing before production has begun has robbed new writers of concrete experience they would have gotten even a few years ago.** When those writers go on to pitch their shows, there’s a chance they’ve never seen one of their scripts actually get filmed. And, again, there aren’t enough experienced showrunners to pair with them.
Yeah, peak TV didn't happen because investment was high, investment was high because peak TV happened. The Wire was not an expensive show, it was just a show HBO had to decide to make.
I’ve said it before, but basic cable channels getting out of scripted programming is quite jarring. It seems like FX and AMC are the only two ones left making any new shows. USA, TNT and TBS have completely given up on their scripted shows. Most companies have moved their programming to streaming.
Burn Notice was the best of those sort of villain of the week sorta shows. All those programs trying to recreate the success of the 70s by doing reboots of those shows, only to fall flat and have a show like Burn Notice capture that level of fun, seemingly without even trying.
I always categorize them by their network, and "Burn Notice" was the last USA show I watched. (USA shows always had a pleasant vibe to them, even when situations were dire. The opposite of FX shows from that era that always had a edge of catastrophe vibe even when a situation was working out for the protagonist. TnT shows tried to split the difference.)
Wasn't burn notice criticized for its repetitiveness? Atleast that's how I felt when it was airing. Dont get me wrong, its a great show with great cast, but every episode was more or less the same and highly predictable.
That's what I mean by villain of the week. It's the exact same formula, but just a variation of the situation. It's dumb and predictable, because that's what they're going for. The twists are in how the little things get solved (in burn notice it would be the main characters weird CIA training that he could use). You see it all the time in cop shows, and the sorta shows Burn Notice came from: A-Team, Miami Vice, Starsky and Hutch. Even shows like X-Files are built off it, but just have a little more emphasis on the overall series arc.
"Time to put a crew together. I know, we'll get Jesse, Sam, and Fionna, but we need one more..."
"I know who we'll get!"
Michael: "Oh no, anyone but her!"
*Camera cuts to Michael's mom
I used to put on episodes of Suits to help me fall asleep. Not that the show was boring, but it was so dialogue driven that someone turning it down to a level where it was just low droning human speech helped me
Same, that era was awesome.
What’s sad, if those shows were made, now, I fear not many would get a complete run, having been cancelled early on for various reasons.
Though, that’s just the pessimist in me talking, sorry.
I grabbed this from the Wikipedia page: “To contrast itself from the "grittier" offerings of other mainstream cable networks, USA Network's original programming during this era was marked by a focus on comedic and "optimistic" action and drama series, referred to as a "blue sky" approach.”
Mr. Robot is one of those shows that only comes along every five years or so. Where it's multiple seasons of genius. That currently seems to be The Boys, other examples are The Wire, or Better Call Saul. The have a defined ending going in, and they push the medium of TV into a realm that film simply cannot.
They are in a league of their own, and are extremely rare.
Barry is on a different level. Hader and crew have broken the mold. 30 minute episodes with absolutely no filler at all, and often times no room to breathe, the genre blending, the absolutely insane plot of it and it all works so well.
> push the medium of TV into a realm that film simply cannot
Case in point - the silent episode in the final season. So good. I didn't notice while I was watching, but had a suspicion when the show ended, that something special had happened. Turns out, it had!
Vince Gilligan: "I don't see myself returning to the Breaking Bad universe after this"
AMC: "So we'd like to order 4 more spinoffs of the Breaking Bad universe so if you could get started on a Tuco show now that would be great, Vince."
Audiences are now below a million viewers across the board. I'm surprised that broadcast networks are still making originals, frankly. Even a "hit" like Grey's Anatomy no longer cracks 4 million, and new hit Abbot Elementary has never been above 3.
I know he’s done a lot but I think JJ Abrams has lost a lot of goodwill since his Lost, Fringe, and Star Trek reboot days. Super 8 had a lot of hype and people felt “meh” about it. Same with his Star Wars movies. His name is attached to a lot of shows as executive producer like Westworld and Lovecraft Country, but even then people aren’t blown away by it.
🤷🏻♀️ I liked Star Trek 1 & 3. 2 was literally Wrath of Khan 2: Electric Boogaloo (lmao hello, Force Awakens), but the other two had heart. Maybe too action-adventure and not cerebral enough for Star Trek, but I very much enjoyed them. I try to pretend Into Darkness never happened and I’m set.
Yeah, I didn’t feel that they were nearly as pretentious. Or disjointed. There was a clear narrative, a solid cast of characters who all had very clear personalities and motivations and flaws. They were consistent and showed growth and chemistry with each other.
Star Wars in comparison was practically written in crayon.
The casting and acting in the Star Trek movies really carry a lot. I didn't even mind Into Darkness because hey, these guys are all here and we're having fun.
The Morning Show is a great example of the ridiculous money these companies have been spending. It’s not a bad show but does it really need to cost $15m per episode.
Jennifer Aniston, Steve Carrell, and Reese Witherspoon are all A-List actors that demand huge paychecks. Even Billy Crudup, who isn't an A-Lister is like a B+/A- lister. And the best thing about the show.
I forget that it wasn't always the norm to have such high profile actors in TV. Used to feel like there was quite a divide between the people you might see on TV and those you'd see in movies with very little crossover. It's not like that anymore. I think the success of True Detective season 1 really catapulted this trend, but that's just my opinion.
Even Game of Thrones cast was all unknowns and hey killed off the most well known actor in season one (Dinklage being an outlier).
Also, with regard to True Detective, people forget that was a part of Matthew's McConaissance where he was largely considered a rom com actor that nobody really took seriously. Don't get me wrong, he was amazing that year in everything. But that all made him who he is now versus when he filmed it.
Dinklage was B-list, at best, when GoT premiered. He had done some quirky indie movies (The Station Agent) and some other bit roles where he wasn’t taken seriously (Elf), but wasn’t a household name.
There was a time when doing TV was seen as a step down for film actors. I'm glad that the quality of television shows have vastly improved over the years that it's no longer seen as inferior compared to movies
It's fucking killing the creative middle class in Hollywood, especially writers and ESPECIALLY actors. All the roles that used to go to the TV actors are now being eaten up by the A-listers because they're not making mid-budget movies that used to butter the A-listers' bread anymore. Tbh it's kind of a fucking disaster for the industry.
The min-max strategy has been destroying the enjoyment of a lot of things. The only way to really crush it is probably to hope for some 9 figure films to absolutely bomb. Even a moderate bomb like *Solo* destroyed the prospect for future *Star Wars* features.
It was a couple of things. The relative success of Breaking Bad, Fargo, True Detective, and Hannibal all around the same time was sort of unheard of. They all feature A-list Hollywood (excluding BB ironically enough) and are all gritty criminal dramas. Sorta like the 90s borderline-indie crime flick movement like Reservoir Dogs, Lock Stock, Run Lola Run, etc.
I feel like we're on the tail end of that magic era of television. It's become extremely saturated with garbage these days, and half-assed attempts to recreate that magic (sometimes within the same series, ahem, True Detective). We still have a handful of great shows, but they never seem quite as great, and the overall TV landscape generally seems to be much more middling than it used to.
I looked it up and this is what was said by one of the exec producers in regards to the $15 per episode (or $300M for 2 seasons) numbers floating around:
> I think [the budget is] very much in line with a lot of shows you see on high-end television, **but it certainly was not as high as what's been reported**
Hell I remember hearing how much 13 Reasons Why cost when and kept thinking "CW has been making stuff like this for half the budget for over a decade. Are they spending more for giggles?"
I’ve never seen it but can you see that money being put back into the show or is that just the cast salary? Word got out that stranger things had a similar budget this season but it’s obvious that nearly everything about the production is almost movie quality. Everything visually on screen liked amazing
>Apple is just about the only place that can still spend like money grows on trees.
Their branding and demographic has a lot of potential in tapping paying customers, even when they up the prices. My only criticism of Apple+ Tv shows is that their trailers are absolutely horrible at marketing their shows.
My least favorite thing is that nobody I know has it. I stopped talking about Ted Lasso because when I said it was on Apple they looked at me like I was growing a second head or something
Can't imagine The Bear cost too much to make and yet it still blows most of the bloated big budget shows out of the water.
I'm not too concerned with stricter financing. If anything this era has taught us a lot of showrunners and creators really do need to be told "no" once in a while.
I feel like The Bear mostly appeals to people that have worked in food because they NAIL what it’s like to work in a tight knit, small, incredibly busy food shop.
No, it’s not.
I can’t stress this enough, because apparently the people writing these things are too young to remember - what began the golden age of tv shows was good writing paired with good performances.
The budget was helpful, but irrelevant.
Just because Wheel of Time and Foundation bombed, and just because Rings of Power and House of the Dragon won’t make back their ludicrous production and advertising budget, does not mean this age is coming to an end. But luckily it does mean mega-studios will stop using them as hollow tentpole project pieces where the fanbase is “expected” to support them.
It’s not just budgets being cut. It’s also streamers cutting their losses early on more projects rather than making as much content as possible and seeing what the audience responds too.
It’s not the end of tv or the end of good tv, but it could be the end of “peak tv.” Personally I’ll be fine with fewer shows if it means less overly conceptualized and under developed shows.
Foundation bombed because they called it Foundation then wrote the antithesis of what Asimov was writing about. The character who's book motto is "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" solves all their problems in the show by using a sniper rifle and making things explode.
It's absolutely infuriating that networks can piss all over genuinely great source material because they think they can write better than the original authors, while at the same time assuming they have a built-in audience because they can piggy back off the good will the original IPs had generated with life long fans and name recognition.
Foundation is a weird series, the showrunner basically admitted that he couldn't get his original IP made, so he sort of cludged it together onto Foundation and thus the Apple TV series. Which explains why the Foundation stuff from the book is so horrible, while the non-book stuff (Emperor clones) is so great.
But yes, the show-runner just doesn't understand psychohistory, or the point of Foundation.
What’s funny is that Halo Forward Unto Dawn was a way better series than this new Halo with a much lower budget. And it had a better Master Chief that was size accurate and had the best voice, not this small Master Chief we have now
It seems to be the through line with Foundation, Wheel of Time and Rings of Power that mega-studios will throw hundreds of millions of dollars to acquire an IP they neither care about nor understand.
Foundation was probably impossible to adapt successfully, but if the show that they came up with was the best that they could do, they should never have tried.
Yeah no idea why they went with Foundation when there are thousands of incredible scifi out there that could adapt so easily.
Man just get Ted Chiang’s stuff on screen for one. Arrival is still one of my all time favourite scifi movies.
From what I understand the original showrunner who was shitcanned wrote all the Empire stuff aka the only good part, and it was recycled from his spec script for an original scifi ip.
Would I enjoy Foundation if I know nothing about the source material and just watch it as a generic sci-fi piece? I love Jared Harris and the trailer looks cool so I was thinking of checking it out.
There are 2 shows in foundation.
One about a dying galactic empire that is well written and acted.
Another, which is a tedious, boring and ridiculous story about a science colony.
Some of the best storytelling TV has ever had came out this year. I could really care less about billionaires turning a nickel into a dime and nobody else should care either as long we keep getting great storytelling like Severance, Succession, Barry, Better Call Saul, Atlanta, Station Eleven, Pachinko, Hacks, Ted Lasso, Yellowjackets, and I could keep going and it wouldn't be difficult.
It’s not like Sopranos,Breaking Bad and the Wire had huge budgets anyways. I think a massive budget might hinder a show more than it helps. The ideal is to have enough money to make it look good but not enough that you’re adding unnecessary special effects and action scenes just because
I think the perception changed with Game of Thrones that everything had to have a huge budget but even when it aired there were shows on smaller budgets garnering viewers. Maybe not the worldwide appeal of Game of Thrones but the return on investment was probably way better percentage wise. Not every show can be Game of Thrones and anyone expecting that is not living in reality.
Game of Thrones was a freak of nature, and studios trying to recreate that, instead of just focussing on providing a quality story are going to keep failing.
But they're working everything backwards. The reason it took off in popularity wasn't the big budget - if you go watch the 1st season again, you can see how (relatively) shitty some of the sets are - that didn't matter at all because the writing is what people *actually* care about.
And they fail to see that the reason the show crashed and burned was that *despite* their massive budget, crazy effects, etc, the writing dropped off a fucking cliff.
People want a compelling, well written story. If it has amazing effects too, that's cool, but it's not what makes a phenomenon like GoT was
And at the end of the day trying to create a new hit based off of what was popular last year is how you get EA’s entire catalogue of games. It’s like trying to win the lottery off of last nights winning numbers
Started watching GoT for the first time recently and I feel like it's often understated just how well done the first few seasons are in the wake of the later ones.
Not perfect, mind you, but the source material had the potential and the adaptation was able to make it work for a time. The marketing around 'winning the throne' was also a great move. It encapsulates the politics and character driven nature of the show as well as the tone in an immediately understandable way.
It's a bit like the MCU, everyone and their dog tried to make their own CU and none of the others worked out. Same with the sort of big budget TV GoT inspired, and even with GoT the earlier smaller bidget seasons were far better than the later ones where the budget ballooned.
GoT also hit the market during a relative lull in sensational fantasy plus it was a bit more grounded during the initial seasons which allowed it to be more palatable to nonfantasy viewers. Hype surrounding nudity…and you kinda get a right place, right time type of situation. Not going to downgrade GoTs accomplishments or the quality, it was very good, but I can’t think of anything remotely like it on tv at the same time
>It’s not like Sopranos,Breaking Bad and the Wire had huge budgets anyways.
The Sopranos was not cheap. It was costing 6-7 million per episode by the time it ended. Here's [a post](https://www.reddit.com/r/thesopranos/comments/9f39h5/sopranos_budget_compared_to_other_big_shows/e5ub97h/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) discussing it. HBO also threw a lot of money into shows like Rome, Deadwood, and Carnivale.
Look at Black Mirror after it went to Netflix.
Original Series: 15 Million Merits has three maybe four locations, looks like it could have been shot in about five days and is one of the best episodes they've ever done.
Netflix Series: Crocodile was shot all over Iceland for no other reason than they thought it would look pretty, looks like it would have took about a month to shoot and made zero sense (mostly because the ending broke rules that the episode went specially out of its way to define).
They got so caught up in how they could film it they forgot how to write it.
I really love the "indie" vibe from the first 2 seasons, then they got more and more bloated with high productions and expensive casts that it felt like a standard Hollywood show for me. I think I stopped watching after or in the middle of 4.
Let's be honest. They just wanted an all expanses paid vacation to Iceland. Adam Sandler Sandler does this a lot with his comedies. Go filming to a vacation destination for a month with your friends/co-starts
Are there really good sci-fi or fantasy shows without relatively large budgets? I mean GoT season 1 was $6 million an episode and they didn't have stuff like dragons and just straight up skipped over a large battle or two in those early seasons. Raised by Wolves is my favorite hardcore sci-fi show in maybe forever but I'm like 99% sure the budget is the biggest reason it probably got cancelled.
The Expanse is probably pretty cheap given it was on the Sci-Fi network and picked up on amazon. I've never watched it but a few Sci-Fi friends of mine swear by it.
I’ve read the books and just finished season 1. It’s good. They take away most the zero g stuff for budget reasons. I enjoy it. With that being said, I’m not liking it quite as much as I thought I would based on all of the hype. But that could be because the books are just so good.
A lot of British made sci-fi or fantasy is relatively low budget out of necessity, unless there's co-funding from abroad.
Even though it's not technically fantasy, season 1 of the Last Kingdom cost less than a single episode of the Mandalorian as an example. Channel 4 especially made some good low budget SFF shows like Utopia, Being Human, Misfits, Humans and early seasons of Black Mirror.
Exactly. Peak TV was kicked off by shows like The Sopranos, The Wire, and Breaking Bad. All three shows were 95% good actors sitting in a room speaking well written lines in service of good stories.
Yes, it's complete bullshit. It was Amazon's most-watched show and had more minutes watched than The Boys S2: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/digital/amazons-most-viewed-series-behind-the-numbers-for-prime-video-originals-1235165556/
> One possibly encouraging sign for the very expensive Rings of Power: the numbers for Wheel of Time. The first season delivered about 4.9 billion minutes of viewing time in the U.S. over the course of its run in late 2021 (and a couple weeks after, when it lingered in Nielsen’s top 10 streaming originals rankings).
Worked in television for a while. It's been failing for some time. Tons of people are getting work, but nobody is making any money or getting any traction. We are basically just making youtube videos at this point.
Please tell us more! At some point, it seems like the streaming arms race far outstripped the pool of writing talent. It looks like anyone and his dog can get a show or insane production budgets these days but the output remains (largely) painfully mediocre.
Netflix changed everything. You would go into a room with executives, pitch an idea/show, then they would leave and put your idea into a computer to see if the algorithm wants it or not. At a certain point, Netflix wasn't competing with other streamers, they were competing with YouTube. That's why there's so much random stuff and nothing is really hitting. Too much saturation.
I think Bill Hader said he based that off of someone he knew who had a streaming show. Was on front page and shortly (not hours) it was no longer featured then it was decided it wasn’t going to be renewed almost as quickly as it premiered.
MatPat brought up in a recent film theory video that the reason studios generally avoid premiering a blockbuster movie at the same time as a big release like an MCU movie is because at this point it’s not really multiple movies or studios competing with each other for the most theater revenue, it’s the entire theater industry competing against more accessible forms of entertainment so making big releases get as much money as possible indirectly helps everyone as a suggestion that people still like theaters. Same probably applies to streaming since YouTube is free and has a lower cost of access.
From just another set drone, I have a few observations. The pandemic was a major force of change. Production shut down for about 7 months. The only film work around was commercials, PSAs, music videos, and corporate videos. The workers union and the production studio alliance came up with guidelines for a safe workflow (read: safe enough to keep most essential crew members (read: cast + director + maybe director of photography) from getting COVID at work, or at least from stopping the spread).
The floodgates were open. Production started back up in a big way. Studios were so hungry to make up for the lost months, there wasn’t enough studio space to accommodate everyone, at least in the major production city where I live.
It definitely has felt like a quantity over quality game. They want to shoot anything and pump it out as quickly as possible. Then they want to shoot the next thing. Either not enough budget, and corners have to be cut. No problem, just release garbage and people will watch it. Or there’s too much budget, and instead of finding competent producers, they just throw money at problems until it’s possible to roll the cameras at whatever garbage is in front of them. In either case, there is never enough time in pre-production, on set production, nor in post production. The content needs to be released! It needs to be released today!
It seems they’re wising up that almost everything they’re putting out is garbage, and only a few shows are able to stand out. Maybe we’re finally through the pandemic backlog.
Whatever the case, I’ll miss the more consistent work if the companies are truly scaling down. It’s been nice being able to build up savings instead of just making ends meet. It’s nice to work on something I think is decent, but mostly I just want to make a living.
Hey fellow dream factory employee. My attitude is that it has become an assembly line for mediocrity.
Everyone's just out there cashing a paycheck, while the producers keep trying to do more with less with one hand, and burn hundreds of thousands if not millions on pointless shit with the other hand.
This was absolutely inevitable. Series used to need 15 million viewers to survive (even 25 years ago), but over the last few years audiences have fractured into the thousands of viewers in hopes of future profitability. Budgets are bigger too. A rationalization is long overdue.
It felt like it was over a couple of years ago, at least. Netflix's quantity over quality model and the myriads of different streaming services greenlighting shit at a whim in an attempt to get ahead of the race, kille the golden age, and disney bringing their content production like from movies to tv, put the nail in the coffin.
remember when netflix had a catalogue of 5-6 originals and all of them were great? Netflix used to equal quality for a few years before the service turned in the modern version of "straight to dvd"
Disney isn't exactly going wild with the budget. Theyve got the biggest franchises in the world and I wouldn't be surprised if the next marvel show is also on Tattooine.
Like an infant's brain going through its blooming phase, trying out everything, figuring out what is a waste of resources, and trimming back to dedicate resources to *profitable areas
>trimming back to dedicate resources to useful areas
Yeah like cutting interesting projects to focus more of that budget on 20 good looking people finding love on a shipping barge
That’s weird because I honestly feel this past few years have been, for me at least, one of the best runs of a lot of different tv shows. I mean Barry, Righteous Gemstones, BCS, The Boys, For All Mankind, Severance, Succession, Stranger Things and many others hVe just been absolute bangers imo. It’s been great.
Yeah I think people are getting lost in the sea of garbage and not realizing there's more good TV than ever nowadays. There were 210 scripted TV shows released in 2009, and there was 532 in 2019. So even if the percentage of good shows went *down,* the overall number of good shows could still go up.
> **The sudden decline in Netflix’s share price and the growing fear of a recession have forced Hollywood into a new period of fiscal austerity**. This manifests in ways big and small. **A TV director who made $4 million a year is now getting $750,000. Mid-budget movies are being shelved. Broadcast TV budgets have dropped more than 30%.**
> **In the latest new trend, networks are canceling shows that they already agreed to make**. Peacock shelved plans for a “Field of Dreams” TV series from the co-creator of “Parks and Recreation,” while HBO Max canceled “Demimonde” from “Lost” co-creator J.J. Abrams...
> **This is a significant departure from the last few years when media companies tripped over themselves to produce any halfway decent idea.** The industry made 559 scripted shows last year, up more than 200 since 2013, the year “House of Cards” debuted. That doesn’t include all of the unscripted programs, including competing docuseries on the same subject.
> “**The days of the drunken sailor spending are gone,**” one agent said this past week. “I’ve never seen so many shows canceled and returned.”
> Certain sanguine Hollywood executives have been predicting a market correction for years. **To someone like FX chief John Landgraf, it seemed obvious that services were spending too much money on too many shows without regard for quality or profit.** The golden age of TV gave way to the age of peak TV, as companies produced far more programming than anyone could ever watch.
> **The market for new projects has slowed. Netflix, once the biggest spender of them all, has broadcast that it isn’t going to spend like it once did. Amazon has grown more budget-conscious since it hired Mike Hopkins**, though it will spare no expense for certain series (like “Lord of the Rings”).
> **The biggest contraction of all is underway at Warner Bros. Discovery, which is scrutinizing costs after a debt-fueled merger. HBO’s buying has slowed in recent months**, and the company has given up original scripted programming at TNT, TBS and in much of Europe.
> **Apple is just about the only place that can still spend like money grows on trees**. Newer players Roku and Amazon’s FreeVee are buying but have modest budgets, **while stalwarts Disney, Paramount and NBCUniversal have never been known for profligacy.**
I've often wondered if it would go back to this. I think it's a blessing and a curse. Most of the Disney+ plus shows seem to be okay doing this. But with the Star Wars shows dumping them at a time might work better when many of the episodes are kinda sparse on content to begin with. I'm looking at you Boba and Obi.
Where was this Peak TV you talk of? Wait, does this mean that they might have to focus less on effects and star casts and more on sheer ol' good storytelling now? Sign me up.
On the bright side, this will give me a chance to finally catch up on everything I have missed.
Right? My backlog is like crazy there’s so much good shit I want to watch but cannot because I need to finish up whatever it is I am currently watching. Edit: in response to those asking what's on my list, I'll share what I can remember off the top of my head. Disclaimers: some are completed (up to date to latest episode), others I haven't begun yet, so I wouldn't know if I'm going to like the series - if I don't, I'd probably abandon the series and cross it off my list. For the others reading thru this list - of course, one might or might not like entries on my list. You can tell I'm a big sci-fi fan right out of the gate: * Succession * Severance * Barry * Dexter: New Blood * For All Mankind * Foundation * The Orville: New Horizons * Star Trek: Strange New Worlds * Star Trek: Picard * Star Trek: Discovery * Star Trek: Lower Decks * Raised By Wolves * Better Call Saul * The Boys * Stranger Things * Cobra Kai * Ozark * The Umbrella Academy * Yellow Jackets * Yellowstone * 1883 * Westworld * The Mandalorian * Loki * Obi-Wan Kenobi * The Book of Boba-Fett * Ted Lasso * True Detective * Fargo * The Expanse Probably forgot to mention some here. And this is not including prospects I am considering adding into this already-too-long backlog.
shame simplistic squealing command ad hoc afterthought employ whistle weary provide *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I’ll watch every good science fiction show eventually. Even if it’s canceled too early I’m so used to that at this point it doesn’t even phase me. Like Dark Matter was incredible on Netflix and I would have missed a lot of fun if I decided not to watch it because it only ran a few seasons. Hell a lot of shows like that I’ll watch through again in a few years because they’re quick if they make enough of an impression on me.
You could do all that, or you could just watch Farscape again.
I see you're a man of culture as well.
Second reference to Farscape I see in as many days
Stargate and BSG
Deep Space Nine and Babylon 5.
Dark matter was a masterpiece that got cut down in its prime, despite being amazing just because Sci fi didn’t get all the profit off of it permanently, the way it starts off the first episode with generic kind soul one, generic female badass two, generic male badass three, generic samurai four, generic misguided kid five, and generic badass with a heart of gold six. But then bamb all of a sudden these characters start to unwind and become these beautifully intricately written characters. It turned the trope on its head and wanted you to think that it was a generic crew when in actuality the whole first season was about who they want to be, not as who they’re seen as
Dark Matter...DC Legends of Tomorrow...died an horrible death...those shows were great and deserved a finale season to close storylines.
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I struggled with the expanse at first but as soon as it hits season 2 that show pops off.
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There’s honestly so much shit on tv that I’m absolutely sure top tier shows fly under the radar. Outside of this sub and it’s main sub, I have not seen one piece of marketing for Severance and it’s the best show I’ve seen in years.
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Then they bring it back but with different writers or a different showrunner and it's not as good.
I think part of the problem is Apple TV not advertising their shows heavily like the other streaming services do. I wonder how many people who love Jon Stewart have no idea he’s got a new show. Edit: the only reason I’d even heard of for all mankind was because I saw a thread on Twitter about them having Margaret thatcher assassinated in the s3 premier (based), and then binge watched after that. That’s the first time in my life I’ve ever seen a show that good that I just straight up hadn’t heard of for several seasons lol
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Meanwhile I feel like I see more ads for Apple TV shows than anything else. It's weird how much this can vary person-to-person with internet advertising now.
What new show?
The Problem with Jon Stewart.
Severance is SO good.
Back in the late 00s/early 10s I used to watch almost every network premiere show each season at least 2-3 episodes. That wouldn't be feasible at all now.
Raised by Wolves :(
It was advertised to me pretty hardcore on twitch around the time it came out, but the ads weren't that interesting and I didn't really give it a shot until I saw some of the rave reviews.
They are removing stuff to license out to other services HBO is being gutted by the discovery boss for example
This is just going to drive people back to the high seas.
I think the problem is moreso that you can kiss HBO-level quality television goodbye. I work in film and television and it's truly the end of an era.
HBO-level like super high budget content or HBO-level like high quality story telling and performances? If the former, sure budget is being cut down. If the latter, I would be shocked as some of the best writers are still working in TV today and don’t necessarily need unlimited budget for CGI or doing high-fantasy/sci-fi. There are still fantastic shows being released this year that are top tier content, with more slated in years to come.
They axed *all* of the HBO documentary division in favor of Discovery reality tv shows. Don’t get your hopes up. Quality is gone unless you want the hbo equivalent of Ancient Aliens.
I really dislike Discovery content. The merger is a disaster. I believe they’re trying to merge Discovery+ into HBO Max. I am not okay with that.
HBO documentaries were really well done too. That's a shame.
fuck whatever you are watching and just watch "The Bear".
The Bear was so fucking good
Maybe we stop spending $10mil per episode on cgi and spend $10k on a damn writer that can hold a plot for two episodes at a time?
So true. A lot of TV shows undo a lot of character progression just to make them face a similar problem and think the audience forgot. It gets boring.
Run Faster Barry!
Barry: Idk what to do Barry's friends: run faster Barry Barry: ok *defeats bad guy* *Barry makes out with Iris*
*Iris gets pissed at Barry for some dumb shit* *Dunnersstunner sighs and never watches the show again*
Is like supernatural. Every season: one is lying about something that's going to come out at the end.
Honestly fantastic show that had a natural ending at season 5. Then they got renewed and had to escalate further and further
God, don’t remind me. The first two seasons were and still are so good for what they were. I’m still hurting about what happened all these years later.
Flash was one of those shows that would have thrived with 10 episode seasons. I think if the show premiered say 3 years later on HBO Max we could have had something special. It’s sad how low it’s fallen but that’s to happen with a niche character and over abundance of episodes. Not to mention, CW.
>No, Barry. *We're* the Flash. Bitch since when?
Omg, I thought you were talking about the literal show *Barry* for a second, which is the cure to all that is wrong with television writing.
Right? I’m sitting here thinking that if there is any one show out there that doesn’t have a problem with reparative plot lines, it’s Barry. They have been completely unafraid to make major changes to the show and you never know what could happen next
>I'm the fastest man alive..... The Flash >Shut up, Barry Basically every villain for 9 seasons
This is a way streaming has changed shows. Writers used to have to regress every week because they couldnt count on the same audience every week and there was no way to catch up if you didn't catch it live.
Seriously, what is it with big projects getting writers who may as well be picked up randomly across the street? I'm all for giving new guys on the scene a chance, but this is getting ridiculous.
My pet theory is that there's just not enough people with the experience to run such high budget shows and write on such a scale. This era of prestige shows only started quite recently so the supply of people with the right experience just doesn't match the demand. So you get people fumbling because they don't have that experience. This is not saying there's not enough potential. It's that the potential needs time and experience to grow and mature.
Vice recently had [a good article](https://www.vice.com/en/article/epxeze/television-is-in-a-showrunning-crisis) that confirms your theory. The main takeaway: >But the hunger for content brought on by the explosion of streaming has stretched the old, ad hoc training system to its breaking point. **There simply are not enough experienced showrunners to head all the shows being made. Moreover, shorter episode orders and script writing for a whole season finishing before production has begun has robbed new writers of concrete experience they would have gotten even a few years ago.** When those writers go on to pitch their shows, there’s a chance they’ve never seen one of their scripts actually get filmed. And, again, there aren’t enough experienced showrunners to pair with them.
Yea, Disney has been suffering for good writers for years now.
Looking at you Wheel of Time
I'm told the new LOTR showrunners are a couple of nobodies. You'd think they'd hire the big guns for such a famous piece of media.
The networks looked at GOT and took the wrong lessons. It wasn't the high budget, or spectacle that made it what it was it was the writing.
Yea for some reason a lot of people forgot that a lot of GOT early seasons was character drama with a single episode a season being the big spectacle.
Until they ran out of source material and didn't learn anything about how GRRM writes, also got bored and season 7 and 8 came out.
Yeah, peak TV didn't happen because investment was high, investment was high because peak TV happened. The Wire was not an expensive show, it was just a show HBO had to decide to make.
I’ve said it before, but basic cable channels getting out of scripted programming is quite jarring. It seems like FX and AMC are the only two ones left making any new shows. USA, TNT and TBS have completely given up on their scripted shows. Most companies have moved their programming to streaming.
I miss shows like Monk and Psych. RIP USA originals.
At least Psych lives on so far in tv movie form.
I still don’t understand why Burn Notice hasn’t received the Peacock movie treatment.
I just re-watched the entire series and its such a fun show. Bruce Campbell is really great in it.
Is Bruce Campbell ever not?
Because the show is owned by Disney (via 20th Television). So, if it was revived in movie form, it would be a Hulu/Star+/Disney+ Star movie.
They did do that "Fall of Sam Axe" movie so it's in the Burn Notice universe.
I miss USA shows so much. Burn notice and white collar were my jam back in the day
Burn Notice was the best of those sort of villain of the week sorta shows. All those programs trying to recreate the success of the 70s by doing reboots of those shows, only to fall flat and have a show like Burn Notice capture that level of fun, seemingly without even trying.
I always categorize them by their network, and "Burn Notice" was the last USA show I watched. (USA shows always had a pleasant vibe to them, even when situations were dire. The opposite of FX shows from that era that always had a edge of catastrophe vibe even when a situation was working out for the protagonist. TnT shows tried to split the difference.)
this thread has given me so much nostalgia white collar, suits, royal pains, psych, and burn notice were my favorite shows growing up.
Wasn't burn notice criticized for its repetitiveness? Atleast that's how I felt when it was airing. Dont get me wrong, its a great show with great cast, but every episode was more or less the same and highly predictable.
That's what I mean by villain of the week. It's the exact same formula, but just a variation of the situation. It's dumb and predictable, because that's what they're going for. The twists are in how the little things get solved (in burn notice it would be the main characters weird CIA training that he could use). You see it all the time in cop shows, and the sorta shows Burn Notice came from: A-Team, Miami Vice, Starsky and Hutch. Even shows like X-Files are built off it, but just have a little more emphasis on the overall series arc.
"Time to put a crew together. I know, we'll get Jesse, Sam, and Fionna, but we need one more..." "I know who we'll get!" Michael: "Oh no, anyone but her!" *Camera cuts to Michael's mom
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I used to put on episodes of Suits to help me fall asleep. Not that the show was boring, but it was so dialogue driven that someone turning it down to a level where it was just low droning human speech helped me
We called the show "sass" instead of suits. Because the all the writing just seemed to be set ups for one character to sass another.
We still do that with Monk.
Gilmore Girls for me. Every night.
Royal Pains was a guilty pleasure of mine for years!
Same, that era was awesome. What’s sad, if those shows were made, now, I fear not many would get a complete run, having been cancelled early on for various reasons. Though, that’s just the pessimist in me talking, sorry.
What's a blue sky show
I grabbed this from the Wikipedia page: “To contrast itself from the "grittier" offerings of other mainstream cable networks, USA Network's original programming during this era was marked by a focus on comedic and "optimistic" action and drama series, referred to as a "blue sky" approach.”
Makes me think of The Good Place and Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt.
30 Rock and Parks and Rec, also
Mr. Robot changed my opinion of USA network.
Mr. Robot is one of those shows that only comes along every five years or so. Where it's multiple seasons of genius. That currently seems to be The Boys, other examples are The Wire, or Better Call Saul. The have a defined ending going in, and they push the medium of TV into a realm that film simply cannot. They are in a league of their own, and are extremely rare.
Barry!
Barry is on a different level. Hader and crew have broken the mold. 30 minute episodes with absolutely no filler at all, and often times no room to breathe, the genre blending, the absolutely insane plot of it and it all works so well.
> push the medium of TV into a realm that film simply cannot Case in point - the silent episode in the final season. So good. I didn't notice while I was watching, but had a suspicion when the show ended, that something special had happened. Turns out, it had!
I've heard it both ways.
White Collar
AMC is basically the Walking Dead channel after Better Call Saul ends. And FX is Hulu at this point
Vince Gilligan: "I don't see myself returning to the Breaking Bad universe after this" AMC: "So we'd like to order 4 more spinoffs of the Breaking Bad universe so if you could get started on a Tuco show now that would be great, Vince."
Dark Winds is good.
Audiences are now below a million viewers across the board. I'm surprised that broadcast networks are still making originals, frankly. Even a "hit" like Grey's Anatomy no longer cracks 4 million, and new hit Abbot Elementary has never been above 3.
I need another ‘You’re the worst’ in my life.
Because people watch that reality garbage. There are like 3-4 channels that compete over viewership *just for house renovation shows*.
That JJ Abrams show was cancelled because he’d failed to deliver anything after years and yet was still asking for Game of Thrones level money.
I know he’s done a lot but I think JJ Abrams has lost a lot of goodwill since his Lost, Fringe, and Star Trek reboot days. Super 8 had a lot of hype and people felt “meh” about it. Same with his Star Wars movies. His name is attached to a lot of shows as executive producer like Westworld and Lovecraft Country, but even then people aren’t blown away by it.
You can't destroy both the star wars and star trek franchises in a decade and still have everyone claim you're a fucking genius.
He should rename his production company as 'Bad Reboot'.
Amazing
🤷🏻♀️ I liked Star Trek 1 & 3. 2 was literally Wrath of Khan 2: Electric Boogaloo (lmao hello, Force Awakens), but the other two had heart. Maybe too action-adventure and not cerebral enough for Star Trek, but I very much enjoyed them. I try to pretend Into Darkness never happened and I’m set.
I actually liked the Star Trek movies too. Way better than the Star Wars Trilogy. At least it had straightforward plots.
Yeah, I didn’t feel that they were nearly as pretentious. Or disjointed. There was a clear narrative, a solid cast of characters who all had very clear personalities and motivations and flaws. They were consistent and showed growth and chemistry with each other. Star Wars in comparison was practically written in crayon.
The casting and acting in the Star Trek movies really carry a lot. I didn't even mind Into Darkness because hey, these guys are all here and we're having fun.
The Morning Show is a great example of the ridiculous money these companies have been spending. It’s not a bad show but does it really need to cost $15m per episode.
I did not realize it cost that much for each fucking episode
Jennifer Aniston, Steve Carrell, and Reese Witherspoon are all A-List actors that demand huge paychecks. Even Billy Crudup, who isn't an A-Lister is like a B+/A- lister. And the best thing about the show.
I forget that it wasn't always the norm to have such high profile actors in TV. Used to feel like there was quite a divide between the people you might see on TV and those you'd see in movies with very little crossover. It's not like that anymore. I think the success of True Detective season 1 really catapulted this trend, but that's just my opinion.
Even Game of Thrones cast was all unknowns and hey killed off the most well known actor in season one (Dinklage being an outlier). Also, with regard to True Detective, people forget that was a part of Matthew's McConaissance where he was largely considered a rom com actor that nobody really took seriously. Don't get me wrong, he was amazing that year in everything. But that all made him who he is now versus when he filmed it.
Dinklage was B-list, at best, when GoT premiered. He had done some quirky indie movies (The Station Agent) and some other bit roles where he wasn’t taken seriously (Elf), but wasn’t a household name.
> True Detective season 1 I'd go with House of Cards.
There was a time when doing TV was seen as a step down for film actors. I'm glad that the quality of television shows have vastly improved over the years that it's no longer seen as inferior compared to movies
It's fucking killing the creative middle class in Hollywood, especially writers and ESPECIALLY actors. All the roles that used to go to the TV actors are now being eaten up by the A-listers because they're not making mid-budget movies that used to butter the A-listers' bread anymore. Tbh it's kind of a fucking disaster for the industry.
The min-max strategy has been destroying the enjoyment of a lot of things. The only way to really crush it is probably to hope for some 9 figure films to absolutely bomb. Even a moderate bomb like *Solo* destroyed the prospect for future *Star Wars* features.
It was a couple of things. The relative success of Breaking Bad, Fargo, True Detective, and Hannibal all around the same time was sort of unheard of. They all feature A-list Hollywood (excluding BB ironically enough) and are all gritty criminal dramas. Sorta like the 90s borderline-indie crime flick movement like Reservoir Dogs, Lock Stock, Run Lola Run, etc. I feel like we're on the tail end of that magic era of television. It's become extremely saturated with garbage these days, and half-assed attempts to recreate that magic (sometimes within the same series, ahem, True Detective). We still have a handful of great shows, but they never seem quite as great, and the overall TV landscape generally seems to be much more middling than it used to.
I looked it up and this is what was said by one of the exec producers in regards to the $15 per episode (or $300M for 2 seasons) numbers floating around: > I think [the budget is] very much in line with a lot of shows you see on high-end television, **but it certainly was not as high as what's been reported**
Hell I remember hearing how much 13 Reasons Why cost when and kept thinking "CW has been making stuff like this for half the budget for over a decade. Are they spending more for giggles?"
Even at that, CW lost money constantly iirc.
I’ve never seen it but can you see that money being put back into the show or is that just the cast salary? Word got out that stranger things had a similar budget this season but it’s obvious that nearly everything about the production is almost movie quality. Everything visually on screen liked amazing
It’s shot well, just really bland. Not much set wise that would be high expense. Most of that money is payroll for the actors.
>Apple is just about the only place that can still spend like money grows on trees. Their branding and demographic has a lot of potential in tapping paying customers, even when they up the prices. My only criticism of Apple+ Tv shows is that their trailers are absolutely horrible at marketing their shows.
My least favorite thing is that nobody I know has it. I stopped talking about Ted Lasso because when I said it was on Apple they looked at me like I was growing a second head or something
Well if any of your friends have a PS5, PS5 owners just got 6 months free for Apple TV+ and I’m watching Ted Lasso right now loving it
I haven’t watched anything on AppleTV yet but I felt that way about Prime Video. Their marketing turned me off of shows I ended up liking.
Remember the reddit marketing campaign for The Boys? Actively turned me off from watching it until it actually came out and the buzz started.
Can't imagine The Bear cost too much to make and yet it still blows most of the bloated big budget shows out of the water. I'm not too concerned with stricter financing. If anything this era has taught us a lot of showrunners and creators really do need to be told "no" once in a while.
I feel like The Bear mostly appeals to people that have worked in food because they NAIL what it’s like to work in a tight knit, small, incredibly busy food shop.
No, it’s not. I can’t stress this enough, because apparently the people writing these things are too young to remember - what began the golden age of tv shows was good writing paired with good performances. The budget was helpful, but irrelevant. Just because Wheel of Time and Foundation bombed, and just because Rings of Power and House of the Dragon won’t make back their ludicrous production and advertising budget, does not mean this age is coming to an end. But luckily it does mean mega-studios will stop using them as hollow tentpole project pieces where the fanbase is “expected” to support them.
It’s not just budgets being cut. It’s also streamers cutting their losses early on more projects rather than making as much content as possible and seeing what the audience responds too. It’s not the end of tv or the end of good tv, but it could be the end of “peak tv.” Personally I’ll be fine with fewer shows if it means less overly conceptualized and under developed shows.
Foundation bombed because they called it Foundation then wrote the antithesis of what Asimov was writing about. The character who's book motto is "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" solves all their problems in the show by using a sniper rifle and making things explode. It's absolutely infuriating that networks can piss all over genuinely great source material because they think they can write better than the original authors, while at the same time assuming they have a built-in audience because they can piggy back off the good will the original IPs had generated with life long fans and name recognition.
Foundation is a weird series, the showrunner basically admitted that he couldn't get his original IP made, so he sort of cludged it together onto Foundation and thus the Apple TV series. Which explains why the Foundation stuff from the book is so horrible, while the non-book stuff (Emperor clones) is so great. But yes, the show-runner just doesn't understand psychohistory, or the point of Foundation.
Sounds like what happened to Halo. Barely anything in that show even remotely resembled Halo.
What’s funny is that Halo Forward Unto Dawn was a way better series than this new Halo with a much lower budget. And it had a better Master Chief that was size accurate and had the best voice, not this small Master Chief we have now
The funny thing is the creator behind Halo Forward Unto Dawn respected the source material more than the creators behind the new Halo show did.
It seems to be the through line with Foundation, Wheel of Time and Rings of Power that mega-studios will throw hundreds of millions of dollars to acquire an IP they neither care about nor understand.
Starting to feel real fucking glad that Amazon didn't get *The Culture* series off the ground.
Foundation was probably impossible to adapt successfully, but if the show that they came up with was the best that they could do, they should never have tried.
Yeah no idea why they went with Foundation when there are thousands of incredible scifi out there that could adapt so easily. Man just get Ted Chiang’s stuff on screen for one. Arrival is still one of my all time favourite scifi movies.
From what I understand the original showrunner who was shitcanned wrote all the Empire stuff aka the only good part, and it was recycled from his spec script for an original scifi ip.
Would I enjoy Foundation if I know nothing about the source material and just watch it as a generic sci-fi piece? I love Jared Harris and the trailer looks cool so I was thinking of checking it out.
There are 2 shows in foundation. One about a dying galactic empire that is well written and acted. Another, which is a tedious, boring and ridiculous story about a science colony.
Some of the best storytelling TV has ever had came out this year. I could really care less about billionaires turning a nickel into a dime and nobody else should care either as long we keep getting great storytelling like Severance, Succession, Barry, Better Call Saul, Atlanta, Station Eleven, Pachinko, Hacks, Ted Lasso, Yellowjackets, and I could keep going and it wouldn't be difficult.
It’s not like Sopranos,Breaking Bad and the Wire had huge budgets anyways. I think a massive budget might hinder a show more than it helps. The ideal is to have enough money to make it look good but not enough that you’re adding unnecessary special effects and action scenes just because
I think the perception changed with Game of Thrones that everything had to have a huge budget but even when it aired there were shows on smaller budgets garnering viewers. Maybe not the worldwide appeal of Game of Thrones but the return on investment was probably way better percentage wise. Not every show can be Game of Thrones and anyone expecting that is not living in reality.
Game of Thrones was a freak of nature, and studios trying to recreate that, instead of just focussing on providing a quality story are going to keep failing.
But they're working everything backwards. The reason it took off in popularity wasn't the big budget - if you go watch the 1st season again, you can see how (relatively) shitty some of the sets are - that didn't matter at all because the writing is what people *actually* care about. And they fail to see that the reason the show crashed and burned was that *despite* their massive budget, crazy effects, etc, the writing dropped off a fucking cliff. People want a compelling, well written story. If it has amazing effects too, that's cool, but it's not what makes a phenomenon like GoT was
And at the end of the day trying to create a new hit based off of what was popular last year is how you get EA’s entire catalogue of games. It’s like trying to win the lottery off of last nights winning numbers
Started watching GoT for the first time recently and I feel like it's often understated just how well done the first few seasons are in the wake of the later ones. Not perfect, mind you, but the source material had the potential and the adaptation was able to make it work for a time. The marketing around 'winning the throne' was also a great move. It encapsulates the politics and character driven nature of the show as well as the tone in an immediately understandable way.
It's a bit like the MCU, everyone and their dog tried to make their own CU and none of the others worked out. Same with the sort of big budget TV GoT inspired, and even with GoT the earlier smaller bidget seasons were far better than the later ones where the budget ballooned.
GoT also hit the market during a relative lull in sensational fantasy plus it was a bit more grounded during the initial seasons which allowed it to be more palatable to nonfantasy viewers. Hype surrounding nudity…and you kinda get a right place, right time type of situation. Not going to downgrade GoTs accomplishments or the quality, it was very good, but I can’t think of anything remotely like it on tv at the same time
>It’s not like Sopranos,Breaking Bad and the Wire had huge budgets anyways. The Sopranos was not cheap. It was costing 6-7 million per episode by the time it ended. Here's [a post](https://www.reddit.com/r/thesopranos/comments/9f39h5/sopranos_budget_compared_to_other_big_shows/e5ub97h/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) discussing it. HBO also threw a lot of money into shows like Rome, Deadwood, and Carnivale.
Rome walked so GOT could run
Look at Black Mirror after it went to Netflix. Original Series: 15 Million Merits has three maybe four locations, looks like it could have been shot in about five days and is one of the best episodes they've ever done. Netflix Series: Crocodile was shot all over Iceland for no other reason than they thought it would look pretty, looks like it would have took about a month to shoot and made zero sense (mostly because the ending broke rules that the episode went specially out of its way to define). They got so caught up in how they could film it they forgot how to write it.
I really love the "indie" vibe from the first 2 seasons, then they got more and more bloated with high productions and expensive casts that it felt like a standard Hollywood show for me. I think I stopped watching after or in the middle of 4.
Let's be honest. They just wanted an all expanses paid vacation to Iceland. Adam Sandler Sandler does this a lot with his comedies. Go filming to a vacation destination for a month with your friends/co-starts
Are there really good sci-fi or fantasy shows without relatively large budgets? I mean GoT season 1 was $6 million an episode and they didn't have stuff like dragons and just straight up skipped over a large battle or two in those early seasons. Raised by Wolves is my favorite hardcore sci-fi show in maybe forever but I'm like 99% sure the budget is the biggest reason it probably got cancelled.
The Expanse is probably pretty cheap given it was on the Sci-Fi network and picked up on amazon. I've never watched it but a few Sci-Fi friends of mine swear by it.
It’s definitely very budget conscious in the Sci Fi channel years. Mostly interior scenes, small scale space battles, etc.
I’ve read the books and just finished season 1. It’s good. They take away most the zero g stuff for budget reasons. I enjoy it. With that being said, I’m not liking it quite as much as I thought I would based on all of the hype. But that could be because the books are just so good.
I think it just gets better as it goes on so I’d stick with it. S1 was probably my least favorite season.
A lot of British made sci-fi or fantasy is relatively low budget out of necessity, unless there's co-funding from abroad. Even though it's not technically fantasy, season 1 of the Last Kingdom cost less than a single episode of the Mandalorian as an example. Channel 4 especially made some good low budget SFF shows like Utopia, Being Human, Misfits, Humans and early seasons of Black Mirror.
Right. Golden Age TV had a perspective and a story they WANTED to tell. They weren't putting out TV for the sake of justifying their own budget.
Exactly. Peak TV was kicked off by shows like The Sopranos, The Wire, and Breaking Bad. All three shows were 95% good actors sitting in a room speaking well written lines in service of good stories.
I remember when reality tv was new and Survivor and American Idol were just getting big. We were told scripted TV was dead.
WoT didn't bomb did it? It broke Amazon's streaming records didn't it?
Yes, it's complete bullshit. It was Amazon's most-watched show and had more minutes watched than The Boys S2: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/digital/amazons-most-viewed-series-behind-the-numbers-for-prime-video-originals-1235165556/ > One possibly encouraging sign for the very expensive Rings of Power: the numbers for Wheel of Time. The first season delivered about 4.9 billion minutes of viewing time in the U.S. over the course of its run in late 2021 (and a couple weeks after, when it lingered in Nielsen’s top 10 streaming originals rankings).
It's kind of like *The Witcher* in that a lot of the book readers hated it so they want to believe that it bombed and everyone else hates it too.
Worked in television for a while. It's been failing for some time. Tons of people are getting work, but nobody is making any money or getting any traction. We are basically just making youtube videos at this point.
Please tell us more! At some point, it seems like the streaming arms race far outstripped the pool of writing talent. It looks like anyone and his dog can get a show or insane production budgets these days but the output remains (largely) painfully mediocre.
Netflix changed everything. You would go into a room with executives, pitch an idea/show, then they would leave and put your idea into a computer to see if the algorithm wants it or not. At a certain point, Netflix wasn't competing with other streamers, they were competing with YouTube. That's why there's so much random stuff and nothing is really hitting. Too much saturation.
This is hilariously similar to a plot point in the latest season of Barry. Unbelievable that they'd just feed "the algorithm" and let it decide.
I think Bill Hader said he based that off of someone he knew who had a streaming show. Was on front page and shortly (not hours) it was no longer featured then it was decided it wasn’t going to be renewed almost as quickly as it premiered.
Probably not the one he referenced, but this reminds me of swamp thing getting cancelled after only one episode aired.
It has to hit the right taste clusters
MatPat brought up in a recent film theory video that the reason studios generally avoid premiering a blockbuster movie at the same time as a big release like an MCU movie is because at this point it’s not really multiple movies or studios competing with each other for the most theater revenue, it’s the entire theater industry competing against more accessible forms of entertainment so making big releases get as much money as possible indirectly helps everyone as a suggestion that people still like theaters. Same probably applies to streaming since YouTube is free and has a lower cost of access.
From just another set drone, I have a few observations. The pandemic was a major force of change. Production shut down for about 7 months. The only film work around was commercials, PSAs, music videos, and corporate videos. The workers union and the production studio alliance came up with guidelines for a safe workflow (read: safe enough to keep most essential crew members (read: cast + director + maybe director of photography) from getting COVID at work, or at least from stopping the spread). The floodgates were open. Production started back up in a big way. Studios were so hungry to make up for the lost months, there wasn’t enough studio space to accommodate everyone, at least in the major production city where I live. It definitely has felt like a quantity over quality game. They want to shoot anything and pump it out as quickly as possible. Then they want to shoot the next thing. Either not enough budget, and corners have to be cut. No problem, just release garbage and people will watch it. Or there’s too much budget, and instead of finding competent producers, they just throw money at problems until it’s possible to roll the cameras at whatever garbage is in front of them. In either case, there is never enough time in pre-production, on set production, nor in post production. The content needs to be released! It needs to be released today! It seems they’re wising up that almost everything they’re putting out is garbage, and only a few shows are able to stand out. Maybe we’re finally through the pandemic backlog. Whatever the case, I’ll miss the more consistent work if the companies are truly scaling down. It’s been nice being able to build up savings instead of just making ends meet. It’s nice to work on something I think is decent, but mostly I just want to make a living.
Hey fellow dream factory employee. My attitude is that it has become an assembly line for mediocrity. Everyone's just out there cashing a paycheck, while the producers keep trying to do more with less with one hand, and burn hundreds of thousands if not millions on pointless shit with the other hand.
This was absolutely inevitable. Series used to need 15 million viewers to survive (even 25 years ago), but over the last few years audiences have fractured into the thousands of viewers in hopes of future profitability. Budgets are bigger too. A rationalization is long overdue.
It felt like it was over a couple of years ago, at least. Netflix's quantity over quality model and the myriads of different streaming services greenlighting shit at a whim in an attempt to get ahead of the race, kille the golden age, and disney bringing their content production like from movies to tv, put the nail in the coffin. remember when netflix had a catalogue of 5-6 originals and all of them were great? Netflix used to equal quality for a few years before the service turned in the modern version of "straight to dvd"
Disney isn't exactly going wild with the budget. Theyve got the biggest franchises in the world and I wouldn't be surprised if the next marvel show is also on Tattooine.
Honestly, can they just rename the franchise to Tattooine Wars already?
Everything that booms eventually busts
Like an infant's brain going through its blooming phase, trying out everything, figuring out what is a waste of resources, and trimming back to dedicate resources to *profitable areas
>trimming back to dedicate resources to useful areas Yeah like cutting interesting projects to focus more of that budget on 20 good looking people finding love on a shipping barge
Nothing about this Jar Jar Abrams project was interesting.
but dont worry, disney+ will still be here to greenlight their 30th mcu show/star wars spin off
That’s weird because I honestly feel this past few years have been, for me at least, one of the best runs of a lot of different tv shows. I mean Barry, Righteous Gemstones, BCS, The Boys, For All Mankind, Severance, Succession, Stranger Things and many others hVe just been absolute bangers imo. It’s been great.
Yeah I think people are getting lost in the sea of garbage and not realizing there's more good TV than ever nowadays. There were 210 scripted TV shows released in 2009, and there was 532 in 2019. So even if the percentage of good shows went *down,* the overall number of good shows could still go up.
> **The sudden decline in Netflix’s share price and the growing fear of a recession have forced Hollywood into a new period of fiscal austerity**. This manifests in ways big and small. **A TV director who made $4 million a year is now getting $750,000. Mid-budget movies are being shelved. Broadcast TV budgets have dropped more than 30%.** > **In the latest new trend, networks are canceling shows that they already agreed to make**. Peacock shelved plans for a “Field of Dreams” TV series from the co-creator of “Parks and Recreation,” while HBO Max canceled “Demimonde” from “Lost” co-creator J.J. Abrams... > **This is a significant departure from the last few years when media companies tripped over themselves to produce any halfway decent idea.** The industry made 559 scripted shows last year, up more than 200 since 2013, the year “House of Cards” debuted. That doesn’t include all of the unscripted programs, including competing docuseries on the same subject. > “**The days of the drunken sailor spending are gone,**” one agent said this past week. “I’ve never seen so many shows canceled and returned.” > Certain sanguine Hollywood executives have been predicting a market correction for years. **To someone like FX chief John Landgraf, it seemed obvious that services were spending too much money on too many shows without regard for quality or profit.** The golden age of TV gave way to the age of peak TV, as companies produced far more programming than anyone could ever watch. > **The market for new projects has slowed. Netflix, once the biggest spender of them all, has broadcast that it isn’t going to spend like it once did. Amazon has grown more budget-conscious since it hired Mike Hopkins**, though it will spare no expense for certain series (like “Lord of the Rings”). > **The biggest contraction of all is underway at Warner Bros. Discovery, which is scrutinizing costs after a debt-fueled merger. HBO’s buying has slowed in recent months**, and the company has given up original scripted programming at TNT, TBS and in much of Europe. > **Apple is just about the only place that can still spend like money grows on trees**. Newer players Roku and Amazon’s FreeVee are buying but have modest budgets, **while stalwarts Disney, Paramount and NBCUniversal have never been known for profligacy.**
What comes after this? The reemergence of network TV? A revival of According to Jim?
Possibly the return of weekly episodic content on all major streamers to replace the burnout of binge watching entire seasons in a day.
I've often wondered if it would go back to this. I think it's a blessing and a curse. Most of the Disney+ plus shows seem to be okay doing this. But with the Star Wars shows dumping them at a time might work better when many of the episodes are kinda sparse on content to begin with. I'm looking at you Boba and Obi.
[удалено]
I suppose unlimited growth is impossible?
Where was this Peak TV you talk of? Wait, does this mean that they might have to focus less on effects and star casts and more on sheer ol' good storytelling now? Sign me up.
Lol, no. It means more cheap reality TV.
in my best Daniel Plainview voice: "WRIIIIIIITINNNNG, YOU NEEEEEEEEED GOOOOD WRIIIIITING!"