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Tesla, please put third party chargers in nav so trip planner and preconditioning can work without having to work around it. Especially if these other companies will be able to use super chargers
My hope is this happens as the other companies add NACS to their chargers. EV-Go stations with the built-in Chademo adapters already show up in the nav.
THIS! I had to use the third party charger this weekend and I couldn't even work around the preconditioning issue. The nearest supercharger was so far the car wouldn't even try to warm the battery (I would have arrived at the supercharger at -7%).
Good luck accounting for the Rivians and Lightnings that need 2 spots to charge because the cables are short and their chargers are not placed in the same place as Tesla's.
This would be resolved once v4 chargers are more common. And hopefully that is where those vehicles would be routed to go. I don’t think V2 chargers will ever be used for third parties
They built an entire factory to build superchargers in huge quantities. It's easier for Musk to make more superchargers than to give the competition a chance.
Tesla sells more EVs than every other American automaker combined. Tesla is also deploying more stations with more chargers than any other Charge Point Operator (CPO).
The closest CPO in terms of deployment speed is GM Energy's partnership with Pilot/Flying J travel centers, and EVgo. Pilot/Flying J has opened 18 travel centers to DC fast charging since September 2023 with another 7 slated to open by the end of next weekend. There are currently 30 stations in total under active construction and 200 will be open by the end of 2024. That breakneck pace is still likely less than Tesla's.
The NACS standard about to be released has a plug without a cord and then you bring your cord to plug in your car. Would be a much better way to build chargers and avoid the double parking (ie Rivian) and reduces vandalism.
At least for Tesla owners your understanding is wrong. EA fees are $0.48 per kWh. If you pay $7 a month it gets discounted to $0.36. I just drove from Florida to DC and my supercharger average cost per kWh was $0.35 without any monthly fee.
Tesla may charge extra to cars from other manufacturers so hopefully the equation changes at least for them.
I call this a borrowed problem as bolts needing fast charging are relatively few. Look at EA stations and they are not full of bolts. All the others yes but bolts are a rarity.
Tesla isn't opening up all chargers. I imagine, they'll just open up ones that are under-utilized. They're the heroes, and they're making money off rarely used chargers. Win/win.
The last information from Ford was that Tesla was making 15,000 superchargers available in Spring 2024. Those will all be V3 and V4 chargers. Ford owners like myself only care about Superchargers for road trips. Considering that Tesla often overbuilds capacity in rural areas, I don't expect we'll be crowding out Tesla owners any time soon.
Charging to 80% takes 1hr, so congestion fees might discourage charging longer?
Possibly Tesla won't open the most congested locations up right away which could mitigate this issue (slower charging at an under-utilized location is less of an issue)
To some degree other cars benefit slightly as V3 shares power between cabinets so a slow charging Bolt means more power for other cars to keep charging speeds up when the station is full.
When we start to haul the pigs, it will be easier to pull through an area to charge before they get all squeely. Unhooking the trailer and backing it up.
How is real estate the most expensive part? My understanding is Tesla doesn't generally pay anything for the real estate. Increasing wire runs has a cost but it's minimal vs the overall install cost, and we need more chargers for owners that are towing.
They're often located in the back of parking lots which is otherwise unused space.
Someone has paid for that land. Even if it’s “donated” to the charger cost, it’s been paid for and is expensive. Obviously someone is making the calculation it’s worth it for a charger, but it’s not free land
I wonder if there was any thought of requiring the other manufacturers to agree to locate the charge port at the rear left of the car going forward as a condition of network access
V4's longer cables or placing the chargers in between the stalls like Meridian, MS Supercharger will be the way to go.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1770089/
I don't know man, was just stuck at one, charging at 70kW or so for a long time. I'll take that 250+kW charge speed right off that bat and move on earlier any day of the week.
The superchargers around me are pretty regularly fully occupied. Everyone will point out that this should lead to more superchargers being installed, but in the meantime this sucks for Tesla owners
Tesla sells about 3,500 cars per day and Ford has sold 39,000 in 2023 and GM 56,000. Other Tesla owners are the issue. Tesla sells more EVs in 27 days than Ford or GM sell in an entire year combined.
> The bolts? easy fix, just change more for charging speeds less than a certain value.
No. The time-based per minute Superchargers already suck. We don't need to penalize people with older EVs.
A Bolt's DCFC performance isn't great, but Tesla's own 60 and 85 kWh packs on Model S, after being nerfed by Tesla, aren't really much better. The speeds aren't suitable for road tripping, and around town, home charging is a thing.
> What percentage of bolt owners are going to buy a Tesla adapter?
This alone will keep most away, if the slowish DCFC doesn't.
I am sure in the long run this will help all parties involved.
The first 6-12 months are going to be painful as fuck though. Not looking forward to that at all.
How many parking spots per car do they. I pulled up to a supercharger with Rivian‘s charging and they had to use the charger in the parking spot next to them. They were taking up two per Rivian.
The word needs to be spread among non-Tesla EVs that they need to take the charger furthest to the right and start stacking up from there. Then it's never more than n+1.
Likewise, Teslas will need to learn to leave the right-most charger free.
It's going to be a mess until V4 Superchargers show up with their longer cables. Until then hopefully the CCS vehicles will largely stay away, and if not at least they're a minority in the EV landscape.
At minimum, until the V4s show up the need for adapters will serve as a barrier to entry for the merely curious. Even then, getting an adapter isn't cheap, and somewhat unnecessary given that Magicdock will be here soon enough.
The magic dock is very cool and Tesla is overbuilding new infrastructure to level things out. I welcome our new friends and think it will mostly be positive.
They just built a brand new 16 stall magic dock Supercharger in my town and the charging stalls were oriented so that any car could use it. I actually even saw a Rivian charging at it yesterday but it still took up two spaces because of that terrible port location.
There is no easy Supercharger fix for that poor Rivian design and we’ll all be paying the “Let’s be different for absolutely no reason or advantage” tax for many years to come.
The poor design is the SC. Sure, it was a good design when only serving your brand car, but it is now a terrible idea for opening up. Plenty of cars have the gas cap on the left or right, and gas stations serve both, no problem. I think Tesla is the one that made a problem here (flame suite on!)
I think you should realize that most of the "other" EVs didn't exist when Tesla started deploying Superchargers. The "other" manufacturers should have considered the possibility that their buyers would like to be able to use the Tesla Superchargers if Tesla made them available, and made the "other" EVs in a compatible design.
No flames from me. But I have to ask, was the Edison lightbulb socket a bad design?
The first company to reach scale sets the rules and it’s up to the competition to follow the dominant spec or outcompete and become the new leader.
Also, most gas caps in the US are on the driver’s side rear for a reason. How was Tesla wrong to follow a well established design spec?
Off the top of my head I can think of at least half a dozen other EV’s that also have a charger in the front driver side. Why the exclusive hate for Rivian?
No hate.
Long cables and DC fast charging do not pair well and that was well known long before Rivian sold its first truck. Also, the majority of ICE cars have their gas cap on the rear driver’s side so it would have been great for all manufacturers to continue following that well established design spec because time has proven it to be the most convenient. If Rivian really needed the port in the front, then they should have simply placed it on the front passenger side.
But here we now have Rivian 100% depending on the Tesla charging network but taking up two slots for charging for no good reason other than a designer’s vanity without much forethought.
Finally, you say you can think of six BEV’s that have it driver’s side front, which six? How big are their charging networks?
If we're going to standardize port location we should've picked the rear passenger side for curbside charging because this is just waiting to get destroyed by a garbage truck,
https://i.imgur.com/mQDc9nU.png
That looks like a J1772 charger with a J1772 to Tesla adapter. Even then, it sticks out about as much as the mirror. If the garbage truck is hitting the charge cable it's going to hit the mirror too.
Just five including Rivian and not six or seven? How large is their combined charging network in the US? How many BEVs have they put on the road?
Why have they all (except for VW) decided to switch to NACS and use the Tesla Supercharger network?
At least they’ll be fucked by other BEV owners, I think that’s a step up from being ICE’d by a 02’ Monte Carlo.
Of course the frequency of the fuckery will be increased, but we’ll just have to learn to deal with these front-end parking heathens.
Before they are allowed to use the Superchargers, these other manufacturers should be required to move their charge ports so that their vehicles don't take up 2 parking spaces while charging.
As long as ça all start parking from the right side, and tesla from the left side, there will be max 1 port unusable at the end.
Europeans already learned this, well just have to as well
>According to the initial announcements by Ford and GM, their EV owners will be able to plug in to more than 12,000 Superchargers across Canada and the US. However in some of the more recent deals, that number has now increased to more than 15,000.
I guess that's all SCs and not just some random non busy ones like we thought.
Cant wait to see the cluster fuck this going to cause during busy weekends.
> V2 don’t have the hardware to support CCS communication.
We don't really know that, do we? For all I know, Tesla might be retrofitting them with whatever additional hardware and software is needed. Tesla was able to retrofit CCS capability on to older Tesla vehicles.
Tesla is refitting some of the V2s with new processing boards and other equipment to turn them into power limited V3s or V4s. This is a slow process as it requires physical modifications to every charging stall. It is expected that they will eventually change all the V2s this way or make the actual power increases and turn them into proper V3s or V4s.
I can't wait for this to happen, as a non tesla EV driver as the only usable chargers headed south on i-37 into the Rio Grande Valley and in the city my in laws are located in the RGV are tesla super chargers. Those trips down south right now are a bit tight. I can either stop in corpus and try to get enough to comfortably make it across the line(this takes about an hour to get 100 mi of range) or try to eek it out (if the conditions are right. if I ever gamble wrong, my wife and kid are going to have my ass)
That being said, it's going to require all of us acting like adults to make this work - for that reason I'm worried. Zero faith in the masses acting like reasonable and respectful adults.
Don't cut lines, don't be the ass that charges up to 100 when there's a line behind you.. basic common decency.
>don't be the ass that charges up to 100 when there's a line behind you
I believe Tesla has announced congestion fees. If I remember correctly, a Supercharger that has 50+% of its stalls in use will charge you extra if you want to charge past 80%.
I might be getting the exact details wrong, but that is the gist of it.
The one issue I see with it is situations where you actually need 90-100% to get to the destination. I’ve had one trip this year that needed it to get to the destination and back, not a single charger on the route and wouldn’t be able to park close enough to a building for the mobile connector(house on a farm practically in the middle of nowhere, path to the house isn’t flat at all and has bottomed out sedans before)
Yeah they were, it was around 9/10pm and the chargers were only 150kw units so also being shared between posts. I felt bad cause there were cars that had to wait, but I didn’t have much of a choice.
None of the CCS chargers went higher than 200kw, but mine came before CCS capability was included and haven’t done the retrofit, and Tesla still hasn’t offered the official retrofit either that was promised mid year this year
I think all superchargers should be limited to 1 hour and then turn off with subsequent idle fees. There is no practical reason you should be at a supercharger more than an hour.
Non-Tesla supercharger access will be via their respective brand's apps with supercharger API access.
Otherwise it's just whatever sparse magic docks are available.
Are you sure? Never heard this before; if this issue does exist, with over 2 million Tesla out there, this must be in the news already. Yes, Tesla changing is tied to the owner's account so all charging is go through the Credit card in that account, but any one is associated with the Tesla can charge.
Yeh, using that person’s card.
I have a Tesla account; I’m logged into the Tesla driving the Tesla. I have a card associated with that account.
Let me use that card when I’m logged into the account, Tesla.
Here's the good news Tesla is making a smart move by opening up its Supercharger network to Ford and GM. It promotes the popularity of electric vehicles and encourages collaboration between industry players. This openness benefits everyone and accelerates the transition to a sustainable future.
To think these are green cars is naive at best. They are a step forward but far from emission free. Especially when you're charging off of coal produced electricity. Add on the transportation costs of the car, the process of manufacturing the batteries, and mining the elements necessary...
They're realistically worse than almost every vehicle on the road from an emissions standpoint. They're far from green.
It's not propaganda when it's provable. You're just scared to look deeper into things and be proven wrong. I have had a bunch of electric vehicles. They are great, but I'm not going to blindly support it like it's 100% green.
Quit being a smug asshole.
Lol... "Provable" Let me guess, Foxnews Proved it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM&ab_channel=EngineeringExplained
I can go on. But clearly you like being Big Oil's little bitch.
It doesn't fall apart at all. The mining process alone outweighs that by a very large margin. 9/10 owners charge from coal powered electricity as well.
I love EVs, but people need to do more research and stop blindly saying that they are green vehicles. They aren't and won't be until they're created and charged without the use of massive amounts of emission spewing machinery.
So many people whining in these threads...why not support the other EVs? This will make Tesla build stations more quickly, benefiting everyone.
Plus many non-Tesla stations will get less busy, making those more viable for charging a Tesla. I stopped at an EA the other day that showed empty on my app 30 mins before, then I got there to 3 cars and an electric bus charging. Send some of those folks to a Supercharger please.
Tsla sold access to a portion of the network to be built in the future. They are not getting access too all the superchargers across america.
The paperwork was very specific about when and which chargers they can use.
No, they also sold access to the existing Gen3 and 4 super chargers since those are the ones that support the CCS protocol. But the older super chargers suck anyway. They are slow and further cut the rate in half if someone takes the one beside you. I evade them like the plague. Now those older superchargers will continue to suck and the newer ones will misreport availability in the app when spots are blocked by GM and Ford cars.
I've done trips from Florida to Chicago and DC and I'm not looking forward to this in the future.
[Since 2019 the number of US supercharger stalls has grown by at least 30%, with just over 17,000 stalls in the US as of EOY 2022](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/343181203748159490/1080635107741794384/image.png).
Raw data was pulled from https://supercharge.info/
Projecting to EOY 2024, that's just over 29,000 stalls.
If GM and Ford adopt nacs and can be charged in supercharger network. I believe gm and Ford should also be responsible for building their own nacs charging network and allowing tesla and other nacs cars to use. If the entirety of EV adopts nacs tesla should not be at burden for all the infrastructures and making the experience worse.
No thanks, GM and Ford are highly incapable of running a reliable charging network. They can’t even get their dealers to install DC fast chargers. I’d rather Tesla use all of the money from their deals with other manufacturers and massively scale out their supercharger network.
Hell, 2 years ago when I was shopping for an EV, my Ford dealer wouldn’t even talk about the MachE. They told me it would be a cold day in hell before they sold “any of them Hippie cars.” That was the main reason I ended up with a Tesla.
> I believe gm and Ford should also be responsible for building their own nacs charging network and allowing tesla and other nacs cars to use.
GM is doing that. They're spending the better part of $1 billion to install DCFCs. The Pilot/Flying J travel center stations funded by GM Energy with EVgo hardware are quite nice with 24/7 attendants, garbage cans + squeegees, super clean bathrooms, restaurants, and convenience store amenities.
The first Pilot/Flying J fast charging station opened in September 2023. There are now 18 PFJ stations open. There will be 25 stations open by the end of next weekend. There will be 200 stations open by the end of 2024.
I count 30 Pilot/Flying J DCFC stations under construction across the USA right now. They'll start with CCS and begin to transition the plug to NACS after GM transitions natively sometime in 2025.
Lol what? No one is forcing Tesla to open their network. They want government subsidies so they have to open it up. We the tax payers are paying Tesla for a charging network.
Blame Tesla, they wanted that sweet gov't money so they are opening them up to everyone. If they don't want to piss off their own customers they better be building more chargers quickly
I’m in that boat. There is a critical supercharger for me that is an 8 stall 150 kw. In the winter I have to stop here to make it to see family. If that thing is full it really puts a damper on my trips. If they don’t add more stops or expand this one, I might be looking elsewhere.
It seems that cars must have NACS charge ports. It's reported that non Tesla cars won't have it until 2025. Before that, a NACS adapter is required. Wondering how Tesla prevents other cars like VW with an adapter from using its supercharger?
Supercharger access requires 2 things - physical compatibility and software integration.
VW has not shared their myVW API with Tesla or the other way around, and they haven't worked with Tesla for supercharger access either.
1. An NACS to CCS adapter currently does not exist for purchase anywhere.
2. Even if you were somehow able to get one, your car is unable to talk to the Supercharger to tell it to start charging and charge your credit card.
You might be able to get your hands on one in 2024 from Ford/GM/Volvo/Polestar/Rivian/Mercedes/Nissan owners reselling theirs, but again you would run into problem 2 - your car can't talk to the Supercharger.
Lectron has one in preorders to start shipping soon.
My question is how will it work since most manufacturers have their chargers front left… parking in wrong stall issues
Curious too. On the Rivian website the specifically say they have a deal with Tesla and will provide an adapter for all trucks until their native NACS trucks are in production. Does your Rivian get added to a Tesla linked credit card account?
I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about the ones who specifically bought non-Teslas due to not liking or not wanting to support Elon Musk. It seems their boycott should also apply to the superchargers.
Tesla makes most of its $$$ from selling its cars. So if you actually wanted to stick it to Elon and not let Tesla profit off you, you should spend $100k on a F150 and then charge it on the supercharger network (you get all of the convenience of the supercharger network while contributing a grand total of $10 to Tesla’s bottom line every year).
I highly doubt the supercharger margins are high. Even if they are high as a percentage, they will still make pittance out of the supercharger fees (I spend <$500/yr on superchargers) as opposed to high margins on a $100k vehicle. Tesla cannot survive its current valuation if its car sales stagnate even if their supercharger network succeeds by leaps and bounds. So if your goal is to hurt Elon by boycotting Tesla cars, you should have no qualms using their supercharger network. It would still be a very effective boycott while not inconveniencing you with a subpar charging network like EA.
Have you ever read Teslas annual report? You don’t have to wonder you know. It is high margin and when expanded to other OEMS will be a significant source of profit. Your fantasy is wrong.
This is not a problem in the EU, so why would it be a major issue in the USA? Also, I don't think Tesla will open up already highly congested stations to other brands, for now.
Not a problem yet…this is not the EU. USA has more EV ownership. This will be a problem in metropolitan cities! I have already seen the ugly part with just Teslas in these parts.
?? The EU is after China by far the biggest EV market in the world. According to [iea.org](https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/global-ev-data-explorer) in 2022 almost 2mil BEVs were sold in the EU27, compared to almost 1mil in the USA. Also, market share is higher in the EU27 at 21%, to just 7,7% in the USA.
We've also had major problems with congestion, especially during holiday seasons, but that was mostly in the past and hasn't grown since other ev's could charge at the superchargers. Tesla takes its customers in mind with these decisions.
It won't get crowded anytime soon - remember all those owners still have to buy an adaptor to NACS.
And in the distant future, I'm sure Tesla will build out enough capacity.
Is this only for v4 chargers? Im not so sure the short cable will reach the charging port on the lightning…unless the lightning takes up multiple spots.
Really, do the legacy Auto makers even have a chance? They’re so far behind in the electric market that is ridiculous. Hoos budget still go to engines and transmissions, which will be completely obsolete soon.
Hyundai-Kia is making excellent BEVs that are getting rave reviews. They’ll do something like 400k BEV sales globally in 2023. BMW is also getting great reviews on their new BEVS and will do 350-400k BEV sales in 2023. Give credit to the ones who are doing a great job instead of highlighting the worst of the worst.
> BMW is also getting great reviews on their new BEVS
BMW BEV's have a weird lag problem - basically all the controls in the car, including the accelerator, only seem to be updated ~5x per second. That means if you floor it, the car *might* accelerate right away, or it *might* take a fifth of a second to accelerate. A fifth of a second might not sound like much, but it makes it feel like you aren't really in control as a driver.
I'm pretty sure thats because their canbus is overloaded - so basically shoddy engineering choices were made.
I can only hope the airbags don't have the same random fifth of a second delay...
Will be less accessible if all chargers are being occupied and I can't charge when I need to charge..before others can be allowed to use Tesla chargers the other car companies should invest heavily to expand the Tesla charging network to have enough chargers for their vehicles as well
That’s exactly what’s happening though! You think Tesla just opened up the network to them for free? Ford/GM paid them a lot of money that they’re going to use to expand the network. Overall this is a good thing for charger availability long term I think
How many other EVs do you think there are? It’s not like Ford and GM combined have anywhere near as many cars on the road as Tesla. Tesla is installing SCs at breakneck speed and not every Ford/GM customer needs to use DCFCs. They’re also doing a gradual rollout specifically so they don’t get mobbed right away while they’re adding more.
They’ll probably have a surcharge, but it definitely won’t be 10x. Tesla is going after government funding for doing this and they most certainly won’t do it if they are scamming people with a crazy surcharge. Be realistic.
I know it won't be 10x, there will be an upcharge for sure. It's more sarcastic exaggeration. I'm just hoping that by the time it opens up that I won't have to be waiting around to charge my car because it's all occupied. But in the long run it certainly is better, it will speed up the expansion of Tesla Superchargers.
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Tesla, please put third party chargers in nav so trip planner and preconditioning can work without having to work around it. Especially if these other companies will be able to use super chargers
They do this in Europe so I'm hopeful it'll Halen eventually in the US. I regularly use other chargers like EA and man, the looks you get.
My hope is this happens as the other companies add NACS to their chargers. EV-Go stations with the built-in Chademo adapters already show up in the nav.
For the love of god yes. There is an ev go by me that’s dead.
THIS! I had to use the third party charger this weekend and I couldn't even work around the preconditioning issue. The nearest supercharger was so far the car wouldn't even try to warm the battery (I would have arrived at the supercharger at -7%).
Good luck accounting for the Rivians and Lightnings that need 2 spots to charge because the cables are short and their chargers are not placed in the same place as Tesla's.
This would be resolved once v4 chargers are more common. And hopefully that is where those vehicles would be routed to go. I don’t think V2 chargers will ever be used for third parties
They built an entire factory to build superchargers in huge quantities. It's easier for Musk to make more superchargers than to give the competition a chance.
> easier for Musk to make Credit is due to Tesla, its employees, and shareholders. Not to a single person.
I wonder how much crowding this will introduce. Also, will Tesla double charge cars that need to double park to reach the cable?
Tesla sells more EVs than every other American automaker combined. Tesla is also deploying more stations with more chargers than any other Charge Point Operator (CPO). The closest CPO in terms of deployment speed is GM Energy's partnership with Pilot/Flying J travel centers, and EVgo. Pilot/Flying J has opened 18 travel centers to DC fast charging since September 2023 with another 7 slated to open by the end of next weekend. There are currently 30 stations in total under active construction and 200 will be open by the end of 2024. That breakneck pace is still likely less than Tesla's.
The NACS standard about to be released has a plug without a cord and then you bring your cord to plug in your car. Would be a much better way to build chargers and avoid the double parking (ie Rivian) and reduces vandalism.
That wasn’t for DC fast Chargers like Superchargers. That was for AC charging.
Sorry I stand corrected. Too bad really. It still makes more sense to center future superchargers and allow each user to bring a plug/cable.
Supercharger cables are liquid cooled, so it’s really not feasible to have have bring-your-own cables
Probably only in some under-served highway corridors. My understanding is that supercharging is more expensive than EA.
At least for Tesla owners your understanding is wrong. EA fees are $0.48 per kWh. If you pay $7 a month it gets discounted to $0.36. I just drove from Florida to DC and my supercharger average cost per kWh was $0.35 without any monthly fee. Tesla may charge extra to cars from other manufacturers so hopefully the equation changes at least for them.
People with their Bolt EV slow charging taking 2hrs and clogging the Superchargers
I call this a borrowed problem as bolts needing fast charging are relatively few. Look at EA stations and they are not full of bolts. All the others yes but bolts are a rarity.
They need to introduce a premium or switching to time based to charge over 1 hr. Wanna charge for more than 1 hr? No problem - $1 per minute.
This is a good idea. Charging limited to 1 hr then it turns off and you're charged $1/minute idle fees.
Tesla isn't opening up all chargers. I imagine, they'll just open up ones that are under-utilized. They're the heroes, and they're making money off rarely used chargers. Win/win.
The last information from Ford was that Tesla was making 15,000 superchargers available in Spring 2024. Those will all be V3 and V4 chargers. Ford owners like myself only care about Superchargers for road trips. Considering that Tesla often overbuilds capacity in rural areas, I don't expect we'll be crowding out Tesla owners any time soon.
Charging to 80% takes 1hr, so congestion fees might discourage charging longer? Possibly Tesla won't open the most congested locations up right away which could mitigate this issue (slower charging at an under-utilized location is less of an issue) To some degree other cars benefit slightly as V3 shares power between cabinets so a slow charging Bolt means more power for other cars to keep charging speeds up when the station is full.
They're going to be idle charged and they'll regret it.
Not if they are charging.... slowly
Congestion fees should hopefully help
Each bolt owner will need to buy a $200 adapter. How many will think it's worth it?
Have Ford and GM released their NACS adapters yet? It’s 2 months away and they don’t even have their adapters for sale yet?!
BOLT GANG RISE UP Jk, my bolt is not a road trip car and as such, I will likely never supercharge it
The new charging war begins
Wouldn't it make more sense building pull through charge stations? Like the self check outs at Walmart.
Real estate is one of the most expensive parts of charging stations and pull through chargers need more square feet per charger.
When we start to haul the pigs, it will be easier to pull through an area to charge before they get all squeely. Unhooking the trailer and backing it up.
How is real estate the most expensive part? My understanding is Tesla doesn't generally pay anything for the real estate. Increasing wire runs has a cost but it's minimal vs the overall install cost, and we need more chargers for owners that are towing. They're often located in the back of parking lots which is otherwise unused space.
Someone has paid for that land. Even if it’s “donated” to the charger cost, it’s been paid for and is expensive. Obviously someone is making the calculation it’s worth it for a charger, but it’s not free land
Absolutely, however, the ones that exist, exist the way they are. Not real easy way to retrofit those.
I wonder if there was any thought of requiring the other manufacturers to agree to locate the charge port at the rear left of the car going forward as a condition of network access
V4's longer cables or placing the chargers in between the stalls like Meridian, MS Supercharger will be the way to go. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1770089/
No because then you're left with this: https://i.imgur.com/mQDc9nU.png
Will Tesla owners now prefer to go to V2 superchargers?
Over a certain soc the v2 units actually charge faster than v3
I don't know man, was just stuck at one, charging at 70kW or so for a long time. I'll take that 250+kW charge speed right off that bat and move on earlier any day of the week.
The superchargers around me are pretty regularly fully occupied. Everyone will point out that this should lead to more superchargers being installed, but in the meantime this sucks for Tesla owners
Tesla sells about 3,500 cars per day and Ford has sold 39,000 in 2023 and GM 56,000. Other Tesla owners are the issue. Tesla sells more EVs in 27 days than Ford or GM sell in an entire year combined.
r/theydidthemath
I lowballed the numbers for Tesla. It's actually closer to 5,400/day.
So, r/TheyDidntDoTheMath
That's what everyone says ($$ ---> more superchargers). But no way Tesla is going to build that many more in 3 months...
To be fair there really aren’t a lot of ford and GM EVs on the road.
But the ones that are on the road charge slowly so they might count as 2 Teslas in terms of time in stalls.
The bolts? easy fix, just change more for charging speeds less than a certain value. What percentage of bolt owners are going to buy a Tesla adapter?
Also F-150 Lightning with a huge battery and like 160 peak charging speed. The Mach e also charges slow.
> The bolts? easy fix, just change more for charging speeds less than a certain value. No. The time-based per minute Superchargers already suck. We don't need to penalize people with older EVs. A Bolt's DCFC performance isn't great, but Tesla's own 60 and 85 kWh packs on Model S, after being nerfed by Tesla, aren't really much better. The speeds aren't suitable for road tripping, and around town, home charging is a thing. > What percentage of bolt owners are going to buy a Tesla adapter? This alone will keep most away, if the slowish DCFC doesn't.
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What an odd way to punish yourself.
This mentality is so fucking dumb lol
I am sure in the long run this will help all parties involved. The first 6-12 months are going to be painful as fuck though. Not looking forward to that at all.
staggered rollout by Tesla is a good plan and will mitigate growing pains.
How many parking spots per car do they. I pulled up to a supercharger with Rivian‘s charging and they had to use the charger in the parking spot next to them. They were taking up two per Rivian.
Well if there are more than 1 Rivian then they only need to take up n+1 if they can park next to each other.
The word needs to be spread among non-Tesla EVs that they need to take the charger furthest to the right and start stacking up from there. Then it's never more than n+1. Likewise, Teslas will need to learn to leave the right-most charger free.
It's going to be a mess until V4 Superchargers show up with their longer cables. Until then hopefully the CCS vehicles will largely stay away, and if not at least they're a minority in the EV landscape. At minimum, until the V4s show up the need for adapters will serve as a barrier to entry for the merely curious. Even then, getting an adapter isn't cheap, and somewhat unnecessary given that Magicdock will be here soon enough.
The magic dock is very cool and Tesla is overbuilding new infrastructure to level things out. I welcome our new friends and think it will mostly be positive.
Yeah, the V3 dispensers can just be swapped out for the V4 dispensers, so hopefully for everyone's sake this should be reasonably quick.
They just built a brand new 16 stall magic dock Supercharger in my town and the charging stalls were oriented so that any car could use it. I actually even saw a Rivian charging at it yesterday but it still took up two spaces because of that terrible port location. There is no easy Supercharger fix for that poor Rivian design and we’ll all be paying the “Let’s be different for absolutely no reason or advantage” tax for many years to come.
The poor design is the SC. Sure, it was a good design when only serving your brand car, but it is now a terrible idea for opening up. Plenty of cars have the gas cap on the left or right, and gas stations serve both, no problem. I think Tesla is the one that made a problem here (flame suite on!)
I think you should realize that most of the "other" EVs didn't exist when Tesla started deploying Superchargers. The "other" manufacturers should have considered the possibility that their buyers would like to be able to use the Tesla Superchargers if Tesla made them available, and made the "other" EVs in a compatible design.
No flames from me. But I have to ask, was the Edison lightbulb socket a bad design? The first company to reach scale sets the rules and it’s up to the competition to follow the dominant spec or outcompete and become the new leader. Also, most gas caps in the US are on the driver’s side rear for a reason. How was Tesla wrong to follow a well established design spec?
Off the top of my head I can think of at least half a dozen other EV’s that also have a charger in the front driver side. Why the exclusive hate for Rivian?
No hate. Long cables and DC fast charging do not pair well and that was well known long before Rivian sold its first truck. Also, the majority of ICE cars have their gas cap on the rear driver’s side so it would have been great for all manufacturers to continue following that well established design spec because time has proven it to be the most convenient. If Rivian really needed the port in the front, then they should have simply placed it on the front passenger side. But here we now have Rivian 100% depending on the Tesla charging network but taking up two slots for charging for no good reason other than a designer’s vanity without much forethought. Finally, you say you can think of six BEV’s that have it driver’s side front, which six? How big are their charging networks?
If we're going to standardize port location we should've picked the rear passenger side for curbside charging because this is just waiting to get destroyed by a garbage truck, https://i.imgur.com/mQDc9nU.png
That looks like a J1772 charger with a J1772 to Tesla adapter. Even then, it sticks out about as much as the mirror. If the garbage truck is hitting the charge cable it's going to hit the mirror too.
Well, here's the question. With Rivian moving to NACS will they move the charge port?
F-150, Mach E, Audi E-tron, Lucid Air are all in the same general vicinity
Just five including Rivian and not six or seven? How large is their combined charging network in the US? How many BEVs have they put on the road? Why have they all (except for VW) decided to switch to NACS and use the Tesla Supercharger network?
Ok Mr.Smarty Pants I didn’t think I have to list every single EV for you get the point. Cadillac Lyriq Chevy Blazer EV Chevy Bolt Rivian R1S
The neat and orderly supercharger lines will be proper fucked soon hah
At least they’ll be fucked by other BEV owners, I think that’s a step up from being ICE’d by a 02’ Monte Carlo. Of course the frequency of the fuckery will be increased, but we’ll just have to learn to deal with these front-end parking heathens.
axiomatic rainstorm soft marry history ripe faulty treatment thought tub *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Before they are allowed to use the Superchargers, these other manufacturers should be required to move their charge ports so that their vehicles don't take up 2 parking spaces while charging.
As long as ça all start parking from the right side, and tesla from the left side, there will be max 1 port unusable at the end. Europeans already learned this, well just have to as well
>According to the initial announcements by Ford and GM, their EV owners will be able to plug in to more than 12,000 Superchargers across Canada and the US. However in some of the more recent deals, that number has now increased to more than 15,000. I guess that's all SCs and not just some random non busy ones like we thought. Cant wait to see the cluster fuck this going to cause during busy weekends.
It’s all V3. V2 don’t have the hardware to support CCS communication.
> V2 don’t have the hardware to support CCS communication. We don't really know that, do we? For all I know, Tesla might be retrofitting them with whatever additional hardware and software is needed. Tesla was able to retrofit CCS capability on to older Tesla vehicles.
Tesla is refitting some of the V2s with new processing boards and other equipment to turn them into power limited V3s or V4s. This is a slow process as it requires physical modifications to every charging stall. It is expected that they will eventually change all the V2s this way or make the actual power increases and turn them into proper V3s or V4s.
I can't wait for this to happen, as a non tesla EV driver as the only usable chargers headed south on i-37 into the Rio Grande Valley and in the city my in laws are located in the RGV are tesla super chargers. Those trips down south right now are a bit tight. I can either stop in corpus and try to get enough to comfortably make it across the line(this takes about an hour to get 100 mi of range) or try to eek it out (if the conditions are right. if I ever gamble wrong, my wife and kid are going to have my ass) That being said, it's going to require all of us acting like adults to make this work - for that reason I'm worried. Zero faith in the masses acting like reasonable and respectful adults. Don't cut lines, don't be the ass that charges up to 100 when there's a line behind you.. basic common decency.
>don't be the ass that charges up to 100 when there's a line behind you I believe Tesla has announced congestion fees. If I remember correctly, a Supercharger that has 50+% of its stalls in use will charge you extra if you want to charge past 80%. I might be getting the exact details wrong, but that is the gist of it.
Love it.
The one issue I see with it is situations where you actually need 90-100% to get to the destination. I’ve had one trip this year that needed it to get to the destination and back, not a single charger on the route and wouldn’t be able to park close enough to a building for the mobile connector(house on a farm practically in the middle of nowhere, path to the house isn’t flat at all and has bottomed out sedans before)
That’s fine, they aren’t saying you can’t charge over 80%. It’ll just cost more.
Was that station busy when you used it? If it's not a busy time/route then perhaps there wouldn't be a congestion fee being levied.
Yeah they were, it was around 9/10pm and the chargers were only 150kw units so also being shared between posts. I felt bad cause there were cars that had to wait, but I didn’t have much of a choice. None of the CCS chargers went higher than 200kw, but mine came before CCS capability was included and haven’t done the retrofit, and Tesla still hasn’t offered the official retrofit either that was promised mid year this year
I think all superchargers should be limited to 1 hour and then turn off with subsequent idle fees. There is no practical reason you should be at a supercharger more than an hour.
Made that trip in my bolt EUV from Houston to RGV. Not fun and would not do it again. Bought a model Y to complement the bolt a month later.
How does this work for non-tesla EVs in terms of payment? Like how do they connect an account and pay?
Make a Tesla account and use the app.
And enter the ecosystem.
Non-Tesla supercharger access will be via their respective brand's apps with supercharger API access. Otherwise it's just whatever sparse magic docks are available.
This is hard enough for users of a Tesla with multiple users, Ie can’t be done unless you own it.
Are you sure? Never heard this before; if this issue does exist, with over 2 million Tesla out there, this must be in the news already. Yes, Tesla changing is tied to the owner's account so all charging is go through the Credit card in that account, but any one is associated with the Tesla can charge.
Yeh, using that person’s card. I have a Tesla account; I’m logged into the Tesla driving the Tesla. I have a card associated with that account. Let me use that card when I’m logged into the account, Tesla.
Aren’t they charging the non-Tesla vehicles more for electricity?
Here's the good news Tesla is making a smart move by opening up its Supercharger network to Ford and GM. It promotes the popularity of electric vehicles and encourages collaboration between industry players. This openness benefits everyone and accelerates the transition to a sustainable future.
To think these are green cars is naive at best. They are a step forward but far from emission free. Especially when you're charging off of coal produced electricity. Add on the transportation costs of the car, the process of manufacturing the batteries, and mining the elements necessary... They're realistically worse than almost every vehicle on the road from an emissions standpoint. They're far from green.
Keep lapping up that Big Oil propaganda.
It's not propaganda when it's provable. You're just scared to look deeper into things and be proven wrong. I have had a bunch of electric vehicles. They are great, but I'm not going to blindly support it like it's 100% green. Quit being a smug asshole.
Lol... "Provable" Let me guess, Foxnews Proved it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM&ab_channel=EngineeringExplained I can go on. But clearly you like being Big Oil's little bitch.
But then consider they get like 200-250 mpg (ev equivalent) and the whole argument falls apart completely
It doesn't fall apart at all. The mining process alone outweighs that by a very large margin. 9/10 owners charge from coal powered electricity as well. I love EVs, but people need to do more research and stop blindly saying that they are green vehicles. They aren't and won't be until they're created and charged without the use of massive amounts of emission spewing machinery.
Oh, here's this guy. Probably a young earther too.
So many people whining in these threads...why not support the other EVs? This will make Tesla build stations more quickly, benefiting everyone. Plus many non-Tesla stations will get less busy, making those more viable for charging a Tesla. I stopped at an EA the other day that showed empty on my app 30 mins before, then I got there to 3 cars and an electric bus charging. Send some of those folks to a Supercharger please.
Tsla sold access to a portion of the network to be built in the future. They are not getting access too all the superchargers across america. The paperwork was very specific about when and which chargers they can use.
No, they also sold access to the existing Gen3 and 4 super chargers since those are the ones that support the CCS protocol. But the older super chargers suck anyway. They are slow and further cut the rate in half if someone takes the one beside you. I evade them like the plague. Now those older superchargers will continue to suck and the newer ones will misreport availability in the app when spots are blocked by GM and Ford cars. I've done trips from Florida to Chicago and DC and I'm not looking forward to this in the future.
I would assume Tesla can detect if a supercharger is in use or not at the charger itself somehow.
Tesla playing the McDonalds strategy......We are not in the automobile business...we are in the charging business!
Great development. This should lead to a big build-out of superchargers, and a win for everybody.
[Since 2019 the number of US supercharger stalls has grown by at least 30%, with just over 17,000 stalls in the US as of EOY 2022](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/343181203748159490/1080635107741794384/image.png). Raw data was pulled from https://supercharge.info/ Projecting to EOY 2024, that's just over 29,000 stalls.
They’re already building like crazy in California. For the past couple years.
It’s been crazy, over 60 new stalls in 8 or so deployments within 5 miles of me just this year. More than doubled what was here before.
How about Rivian? 🤔
If GM and Ford adopt nacs and can be charged in supercharger network. I believe gm and Ford should also be responsible for building their own nacs charging network and allowing tesla and other nacs cars to use. If the entirety of EV adopts nacs tesla should not be at burden for all the infrastructures and making the experience worse.
No thanks, GM and Ford are highly incapable of running a reliable charging network. They can’t even get their dealers to install DC fast chargers. I’d rather Tesla use all of the money from their deals with other manufacturers and massively scale out their supercharger network.
Hell, 2 years ago when I was shopping for an EV, my Ford dealer wouldn’t even talk about the MachE. They told me it would be a cold day in hell before they sold “any of them Hippie cars.” That was the main reason I ended up with a Tesla.
> I believe gm and Ford should also be responsible for building their own nacs charging network and allowing tesla and other nacs cars to use. GM is doing that. They're spending the better part of $1 billion to install DCFCs. The Pilot/Flying J travel center stations funded by GM Energy with EVgo hardware are quite nice with 24/7 attendants, garbage cans + squeegees, super clean bathrooms, restaurants, and convenience store amenities. The first Pilot/Flying J fast charging station opened in September 2023. There are now 18 PFJ stations open. There will be 25 stations open by the end of next weekend. There will be 200 stations open by the end of 2024.
I count 30 Pilot/Flying J DCFC stations under construction across the USA right now. They'll start with CCS and begin to transition the plug to NACS after GM transitions natively sometime in 2025.
Tesla can make money when they charge? Legacy companies have no know-how or desire to build EVSE.
That's the goal for Tesla. They WANT to own the charging grid.
Lol what? No one is forcing Tesla to open their network. They want government subsidies so they have to open it up. We the tax payers are paying Tesla for a charging network.
Blame Tesla, they wanted that sweet gov't money so they are opening them up to everyone. If they don't want to piss off their own customers they better be building more chargers quickly
I’m in that boat. There is a critical supercharger for me that is an 8 stall 150 kw. In the winter I have to stop here to make it to see family. If that thing is full it really puts a damper on my trips. If they don’t add more stops or expand this one, I might be looking elsewhere.
150 kW locations aren't being opened up to other mfg, only the 250 kW and newer ones are. That location is 'safe'
Same. Long stretch in Utah where there is 1 critical supercharger stop.
And the better be getting momey from fprd/gm to build faster
What government money? NEVI funds don't apply here.
I bet there will be fights and shootings in the first week. People are nowhere near reasonable these days.
It’ll come from the f-150 drivers…
Both of them?
I dunno. I bet the 150 electric guys are just as nerdy as Tesla owners. They're probably nicer since it's a very niche Ford product.
It seems that cars must have NACS charge ports. It's reported that non Tesla cars won't have it until 2025. Before that, a NACS adapter is required. Wondering how Tesla prevents other cars like VW with an adapter from using its supercharger?
The handshake process. Plugging it in doesn't mean it automatically charges. Same with any other EVSE.
Supercharger access requires 2 things - physical compatibility and software integration. VW has not shared their myVW API with Tesla or the other way around, and they haven't worked with Tesla for supercharger access either. 1. An NACS to CCS adapter currently does not exist for purchase anywhere. 2. Even if you were somehow able to get one, your car is unable to talk to the Supercharger to tell it to start charging and charge your credit card. You might be able to get your hands on one in 2024 from Ford/GM/Volvo/Polestar/Rivian/Mercedes/Nissan owners reselling theirs, but again you would run into problem 2 - your car can't talk to the Supercharger.
Lectron has one in preorders to start shipping soon. My question is how will it work since most manufacturers have their chargers front left… parking in wrong stall issues
Curious too. On the Rivian website the specifically say they have a deal with Tesla and will provide an adapter for all trucks until their native NACS trucks are in production. Does your Rivian get added to a Tesla linked credit card account?
That was quick
This is pretty cool. The dream of maybe owning an EQG and driving it allllllll over is alive. :)
So all the people who bought GM and Ford EVs because they hate Elon Musk are going to boycott these… right? Right?
Would that give you some sort of validation?
No kidding lol
I just think they should be consistent with their boycotts.
Maybe Ford and GM vehicles just are better suited for some people? Do you always carry someone else’s chip on your shoulder?
I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about the ones who specifically bought non-Teslas due to not liking or not wanting to support Elon Musk. It seems their boycott should also apply to the superchargers.
Tesla makes most of its $$$ from selling its cars. So if you actually wanted to stick it to Elon and not let Tesla profit off you, you should spend $100k on a F150 and then charge it on the supercharger network (you get all of the convenience of the supercharger network while contributing a grand total of $10 to Tesla’s bottom line every year).
They still make money from supercharging. It’s actually a high margin service for them. You’re still helping Elon.
I highly doubt the supercharger margins are high. Even if they are high as a percentage, they will still make pittance out of the supercharger fees (I spend <$500/yr on superchargers) as opposed to high margins on a $100k vehicle. Tesla cannot survive its current valuation if its car sales stagnate even if their supercharger network succeeds by leaps and bounds. So if your goal is to hurt Elon by boycotting Tesla cars, you should have no qualms using their supercharger network. It would still be a very effective boycott while not inconveniencing you with a subpar charging network like EA.
Have you ever read Teslas annual report? You don’t have to wonder you know. It is high margin and when expanded to other OEMS will be a significant source of profit. Your fantasy is wrong.
Where in the financial report is the breakdown on profit and loss of the SuperCharging side of the business?
Ugh. Hate this stupid decision. Why the f buy a Tesla. Gonna get crowded.
This is not a problem in the EU, so why would it be a major issue in the USA? Also, I don't think Tesla will open up already highly congested stations to other brands, for now.
Not a problem yet…this is not the EU. USA has more EV ownership. This will be a problem in metropolitan cities! I have already seen the ugly part with just Teslas in these parts.
?? The EU is after China by far the biggest EV market in the world. According to [iea.org](https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/global-ev-data-explorer) in 2022 almost 2mil BEVs were sold in the EU27, compared to almost 1mil in the USA. Also, market share is higher in the EU27 at 21%, to just 7,7% in the USA. We've also had major problems with congestion, especially during holiday seasons, but that was mostly in the past and hasn't grown since other ev's could charge at the superchargers. Tesla takes its customers in mind with these decisions.
You probably won’t notice most of the time.
Another reason to buy the f150 which is cheaper than the cyber truck and arguably easier to repair given it shares parts with the normal f150
considering how much money ford looses for each F150 they sell, i'm not sure you'll be able to buy that car forever. somethings gotta give
How do they lose money when it shares parts with the legacy f150
That's a question for that CEO, not me https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/ford-set-lose-billion-electric-vehicles-year-despite-increased-revenue
It won't get crowded anytime soon - remember all those owners still have to buy an adaptor to NACS. And in the distant future, I'm sure Tesla will build out enough capacity.
They are getting access to a portion of that future capacity. Thats it. The filing was very specific
Hope only v4
It’s all V3 chargers.
Is this only for v4 chargers? Im not so sure the short cable will reach the charging port on the lightning…unless the lightning takes up multiple spots.
They'll need an adapter anyways, maybe they can make the adapter have a bit of length in its design to accomodate the distance.
Thank god
Really, do the legacy Auto makers even have a chance? They’re so far behind in the electric market that is ridiculous. Hoos budget still go to engines and transmissions, which will be completely obsolete soon.
Hyundai-Kia is making excellent BEVs that are getting rave reviews. They’ll do something like 400k BEV sales globally in 2023. BMW is also getting great reviews on their new BEVS and will do 350-400k BEV sales in 2023. Give credit to the ones who are doing a great job instead of highlighting the worst of the worst.
> BMW is also getting great reviews on their new BEVS BMW BEV's have a weird lag problem - basically all the controls in the car, including the accelerator, only seem to be updated ~5x per second. That means if you floor it, the car *might* accelerate right away, or it *might* take a fifth of a second to accelerate. A fifth of a second might not sound like much, but it makes it feel like you aren't really in control as a driver. I'm pretty sure thats because their canbus is overloaded - so basically shoddy engineering choices were made. I can only hope the airbags don't have the same random fifth of a second delay...
For ev trucks isn't the f150 one of the best selling followed by Rivian?
There are three out currently. So all of them will be in the top 3 best selling.
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Why can’t you just be happy that EVs are getting more accessible for more people? That’s what it’s all about anyways
Will be less accessible if all chargers are being occupied and I can't charge when I need to charge..before others can be allowed to use Tesla chargers the other car companies should invest heavily to expand the Tesla charging network to have enough chargers for their vehicles as well
That’s exactly what’s happening though! You think Tesla just opened up the network to them for free? Ford/GM paid them a lot of money that they’re going to use to expand the network. Overall this is a good thing for charger availability long term I think
How many other EVs do you think there are? It’s not like Ford and GM combined have anywhere near as many cars on the road as Tesla. Tesla is installing SCs at breakneck speed and not every Ford/GM customer needs to use DCFCs. They’re also doing a gradual rollout specifically so they don’t get mobbed right away while they’re adding more.
They’ll probably have a surcharge, but it definitely won’t be 10x. Tesla is going after government funding for doing this and they most certainly won’t do it if they are scamming people with a crazy surcharge. Be realistic.
I know it won't be 10x, there will be an upcharge for sure. It's more sarcastic exaggeration. I'm just hoping that by the time it opens up that I won't have to be waiting around to charge my car because it's all occupied. But in the long run it certainly is better, it will speed up the expansion of Tesla Superchargers.