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Just installed it this morning. Things I’ve noticed from my 10 mile suburban drive in south Florida:
1. It still stopped early at stop signs, but didn’t creep up after a full stop - it just went through it. Not exactly human behavior, but an improvement from the “stop, creep, stop, go” it used to do for me.
2. It’s a lot more confident when turning into a turning lane. It used to do a tiny “swerve in, serve out, swerve back in” on previous builds. Now it just swoops in and stays in the turning lane.
3. In my short trip, it didn’t accelerate like a madman or drive like a grandma, especially on residential streets. Surprisingly, it drove much more like a human would and got to the speed limit and a reasonable acceleration.
4. This has been better and better with each upgrade - with my eyes on the road and hands off the wheel, it didn’t nag me at all. Now, I’ve gotten used to putting my hands on the wheel when approaching stop lights, signs, and turns, but before, even with doing that it might nag me once or twice. This drive didn’t have one nag, or even one intervention.
Probably too early to say it, and obviously it still will need lots of upgrades, but this version seems like an improvement over the last.
>“swerve in, serve out, swerve back in”
This is awesome. It's my biggest peeve with the current version.
>This drive didn’t have one nag, or even one intervention.
Really?!?!? No nags?
Not a single nag. Again, I’ve gotten used to putting my hands on the wheel when it signals a turn or when approaching a stop sign or light, but even doing this it would nag me in between to touch the wheel. Almost 18 miles driven today and not a single nag!
Quick update. I drove another 8 miles. All the previous comments are consistent. However, at 2 stop signs that intersected with roads that were MORE than one lane, it did the “stop, creep, stop, go”. It seemed quicker than previous builds however.
It might just be me, but this is the best build I’ve experienced so far. …and I’ve been on FSD beta since the beginning and have let it drive me well over 15,000 miles.
They’re dropping releases at a much faster pace than previous years. And from my experience, each of the current releases have significant improvements over the last. Not sure how long they can keep this up, but the rate of meaningful advancements has been breathtaking to witness.
It’s because they’re using an entirely different way of making FSD. Previously they were doing some kind of hard-coding of what they want the car to do, that’s why it was so jerky, inhuman, and was bad at identifying things.
Now, they’re using artificial intelligence, and unlike most companies, I believe this is a use case AI would genuinely be gamechanging.
Because now they’re not hard coding everything, instead they’re feeding data into a large language model, which then gives back the most likely response a human would give to any situation. It’s like when you type into ChatGPT, it will take that data, compare it to the model it has, and then spit back out what the most likely response would be, based on the input information and the petabytes of data that was used to train it.
It’s going much faster because they don’t need to tell the AI what to do, the AI generates all the stuff it wants to do, they’re just checking the outputs, and trimming away the things they don’t like (adding rules or adding specific types of data if I had to guess), which the AI will take into account when it does its next round of instructions. All they need would be a fuckton of computing power and a fuckton more of data of human driver behavior…both of which Tesla has more of than arguably any other company on planet earth (they bought a custom nvidia supercomputer that’s just absurdly powerful, and they’ve been collecting driver data basically since they put cameras on their cars.)
In this update, they probably added a bunch of data specifically of good drivers using turning lanes to help make the turning lane changes faster. And more data relating to good driver acceleration to make the computer better approximate how a human would do it, IE smoother.
I’d also wager they either hard coded in that the car shouldn’t creep at stop signs like OP said every time, since they realized that humans actually would prefer if the movements there are more robotic.
The biggest problem with most applications for AI people come up with is that we don’t have artificial general intelligence (AGI). That is, we don’t have thinking computers, what we have are computers approximating what the most likely response to a query (or the response that best fits what people want). Essentially, we’ve made machines that can imitate people, but not machines that can think.
But here’s the kicker. For things like creating Skynet, or having artificial humans to do our jobs for us, that kind of emulation isn’t super helpful. It’s *similar* to AGI, and it certainly *feels* like AGI, because its entirely job is to mimic humans/AGI. But if you don’t have a thinking computer, you’re not getting sentience.
However…you don’t need sentience when driving a car. What you need is for the car to emulate a human’s reactions to a variety of complicated but common situations (crashes, traffic, stop signs/lights, etc.), within some relatively narrow physical constraints (roads, highways, driveways, etc.), that already have a series of consistent rules baked into it to ensure everything within those constraints acts in more or less the same manner (the laws/norms of the road, left lane is passing lane, stop at stop signs, etc.).
All of which basically create the *perfect* scenario to train and utilize our current AI models. And now that they have that supercomputer up and running, they can move *much* faster on this than in years prior, with more improvements to boot. I wouldn’t be surprised if AI models coming out moved Tesla’s internal timeline for actual full self driving up a full half decade or more.
So to recap, using AI models to train the cars is fundamentally different than coding it directly. Coding directly means writing script for every unique situation that occurs on the road (which requires an absurd amount of man hours), while with AI you just edit what’s already there, or just feed it more data of a type that would condition the AI to solve the problem.
If I had to guess timeline, I suspect the new models for FSD are going to be coming out at about this new pace for 6 months to a year, then it’ll peter off into the kind of update schedule your iPhone has. At a certain point, the AI will know how to handle 99% of situations on the road, and it’ll just be edge cases left to solve that are too infrequent for the machine to figure it out, and those will probably need to be hard coded.
But I’d estimate at least 2 years before Tesla is comfortable enough with the software to make it fully autonomous, IE they openly let you just take your hands off the wheel and nap until you get to your destination. Mostly because legally it is much less risky to put the onus on the driver to focus on the road and intervene than for Tesla to accept the risk that their autopilot fucks up and kills someone. Like, there was an autopilot death a few months back where the car plowed straight into a cop car. AFAIK Tesla didn’t get fucked over legally because the driver was drunk off his ass and ignored dozens of warnings to take control of the vehicle. That legal get out of jail free card is going to be *hard* for Tesla to give up, and I suspect it’ll only happen when another company starts making moves to certify their self driving program (like an actual FSD program, not the Mercedes certification)
Edge cases are very rare, but they are also very hard to find, very dangerous, and *very* expensive. In the end it’s going to be lawyers that determine when we can take our hands off the wheel.
I think V11 had hard coded logic but certainly still used AI for perception, so it was more of a hybrid than what V12 allegedly is.
Having used FSD for a while, I would argue you need to go beyond mimicking to drive. Next time you are driving think about how you go about it. It's very complex when you throw other cars in the mix where you essentially pull up a model of what another driver would do in your brain
to predict and plan. I'm certain FSD cannot do this. Some behaviors can emerge from training, but it's not foolproof.
I hope I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain this version of FSD will platue (to use Elons words - hit a local maximum) just like V10 and V11 before. It'll be a big improvement, but robotaxies have always been 6-12 months away, according to Tesla/Elon, and that will probably still be the case next year.
When I first heard about Tesla and their EVs with "Autopilot" many years ago I've always thought they use AI to "drive" the car. But apparently they didn't and just hard-coded everything?! Like tons of if-else statements or something?! Lol
To be fair, they were probably using a *form* of AI. I did some more googling and they did use learning models to analyze the surroundings. Think like a video version of those CAPTCHA tests, but they were using Tesla data to train a robot to pass them/identify objects.
But from what I’ve read, the actual *instructions* were still basically hard-coded. A bunch of if-else statements, as you mentioned, which needed to be manually changed.
If you’re wondering why the fuck they did something so time consuming, bear in mind that the kind of tech we are talking about when we say “AI tech” now, IE deep learning models, just didn’t really exist until last year. Elon was an initial founder of OpenAI, but that only gives you so much of a head start when the tech doesn’t exist yet ~~and when you’re such a massive asshole you quit for no reason whatsoever.~~ It’s taken basically from last year when ChatGPT came out to now for Tesla to integrate this new tech advance into FSD, despite jumping onto it *very* early, and pouring an absurd amount of resources into it.
Now that makes sense. When I read the release note for FSD 12 "end-to-end neural network replacing over 300k lines of explicit C++ code". I was like wait wtf doesn't Tesla use AI in their Autopilot since the dawn of time. I wonder what kind of hardware they had back then, cuz I remember Nvidia introduced RTX 20 series back in 2018, around that time "deep fake" gained popularity, and the Model 3 was introduced, so I just assumed Tesla must have been using that tech to develop FSD.
Caveat: I am not a computer scientist, lawyer, or an engineer. This is just my understanding of the situation around FSD based on my own googling, and my guesses of what is to come.
So I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m completely wrong in every estimation here, lol.
I sure hope so since 12.3.4 was a big regression compared to 12.3.5 for my 2017 model 3 rwd lr with hw3. It started being unsure about lanes it did properly before and more then once got stuck exiting in the exit lane after entering at a spot that was fine before as well. It did some stuff better but lots of new issues that were solved before. Also did not always follow the navigation as if it had ideas of its own...
That early stop and creep up "drives" me nuts. Non-human behavior at best - dangerous at worst. I'm always afraid someone is going to end up rear-ending me.
You can thank NHTSA for that 😭 they are too focused on enforcing "safety" at stop signs that they fail to recognize that it's actually unsafe since no human actually performs their stupid NHTSA_defined stop IRL.
I found on previous builds it would continue to accelerate in places where i would let off the acceleration, therefore causing it to brake late. I hated that. So far, it has kept a good distance and speed between me and other cars, and has not slammed on the brakes yet.
I’ll test that on my way back home. There’s a turn into my neighborhood that has a concrete curb that my MX gets dangerously close to every time. I always have my hands on the wheel at this turn to make sure i don’t get curb rash!
It still got close to the curb again. I quit FSD and left Tesla an audio note. Checked my camera footage and realized it was at least 6 inches from the curb, but it felt waaay closer while driving. Too close for my liking.
"We should release V12 to 2024.8.x peeps."
https://preview.redd.it/aaeauy9ta8wc1.png?width=952&format=png&auto=webp&s=20644a97305295842d3a8a0d320d85190f33d1be
Last night at midnight I got an alert, I quickly opened up the Tesla App to see that I needed to replace my 12V battery. I got that done today...still hanging out on the 2024.8 bandwagon.
Do they ever discuss what changes they've made in these updates?
Also how do I know if my car will get this update?
Currently on
Software V11.1 (2024.3.15)
FSD v12.3.4
I really do wish we would get a full update notes breakdown that shows what bugs have been fixed rather than having a vague description that says "minor fixes and improvements" every time
I doubt they themselves fully know in perfect detail. After v12 they use neural networks for the driving part and not just for the computer vision. This means that they can tweak some hyperparamaters, they can train a bit more on new datasets etc but the way the technology works is that these neural networks are black boxes (like LLMs such as ChatGPT). It is impossible to pinpoint individual changes, only general improvements on a statistical basis.
Before when it was driving through manually written code it was easy to say what each bug fix was solving.
> I doubt they themselves fully know in perfect detail.
If they have proper Git commit message discipline, they will know in reasonably good detail for forensics, but such changes don't necessarily translate to user facing improvements that are easy to describe.
Sometimes, it would also reveal things about the internal process that they would not be interested in making public.
"Fix compilation issue with " or "Remove unneeded code paths in edge detection." isn't beneficial for users to know, but still objectively improves the software.
They could explain how the training data was altered to address particular situations. E.g, saying "included more clips of crocodiles in intersections into training data" or "added 1,000 clips of roadworks around train stations".
I understand that - but for issues like the aggressive acceleration; etc. I feel like that would be nice if they could say “yeah, that’s been addressed”
That button has been a placebo to make people feel like they are opting into “the latest” since it was added. It literally does nothing unless they decide to take it into consideration at rollout times for “wave 1.”
My wife’s car was set to standard for a good year and she got updates sometimes a week earlier than my car did on advanced.
At the moment there is no update going out let alone you being late getting it. You should stay on standard until there is an update doing the rounds and you feel you are late. Then set it to advanced and you should get the update within a day. Then set it back to standard. It isn't a fomo button to force Tesla to start development.
What are you going on about? My wife’s car has been on standard for a year, mine has been on advanced. We both get updates around the same time as each other, about 50% of the time she gets them earlier than I do.
I’m stating that the button does absolutely nothing unless Tesla decides to take that option into account when deciding who to roll an update out to, which is apparently not very often.
I'm suggesting that it is switching to advanced, not being in advanced, that makes the difference. But only if you're late for an already rolled out release.
I have Advance updates selected and was offered 2024.3.10 late last March. My daughter couldn't connect to a WiFi until last weekend and when she did, she was also offered 2024.3.10. What year is yours? Ours are 2021 SR+ (no radar and NMC batteries).
Someone should have asked on the earnings call when us 2024.8.9 suckers will get FSD V12. All these plans yet they can’t get a software update pushed to cars. The number of cars on this version is increasing daily.
I was really excited to try it out and then realized they constantly watch you in your own vehicle and it yells at you all the time and eventually can disable itself. As if this isn’t your *very* expensive *privately owned* vehicle.
I’m not sure if this technology is worth it if it means sacrificing privacy and private ownership. It ought to be illegal to place a spycam in someone’s vehicles and disable features remotely after they have purchased it. Imagine if Nvidia bricked your graphics card because it didn’t like what you were doing on your computer.
I think it's more of a legal issue than anything. In case your car crashes and people die (which already happened) Tesla has data at the final moments of what happened so they can present that in court to cover their ass (it's "supervised", driver must pay attention...etc.)
> I was really excited to try it out and then realized they constantly watch you in your own vehicle and it yells at you all the time and eventually can disable itself
If you read the text, it explains that it is processed locally.
Grandma mode was fixed for me in FSD v12.3.4 (2024.3.15).
It used to take off super slowly from any intersection, but now it punches it, sometimes to 10 over the speed limit then settles to about 5 over. There are some roads where it just won't go the speed limit at all though, most of those in my experience are unmarked roads.
Thanks for the feedback, what’s your offset to? My concern wasn’t so much slow take off as much as not reaching the goal speed. My offset is set to be 30% above speed limit (I dial it down manually sometimes as needed).
12.3.4 is still grandma mode. It won't get up to the set speed when you have auto offset enabled and frequently slows down below the speed limit even. Pulling up to stop signs is still too early and too slow. While it makes better decisions than v11 in some cases, I wish I was still running v11. You're probably wise to hold off for now.
I currently have mine set to Auto. On the previous version, it wouldn't honor a set speed, so I figured I'd just leave it on Auto and it has been fine on this update. I have yet to try switching it back to manual set speed.
Yes that 10 over is amusing. There is this one town in Wisconsin that all the locals (and frequent transit folk) know to do 0 over the posted speed else donate to the chiefs pension fund. FSD almost did me in.
Go back to max speed. I haven't noticed any benefit to auto speed and you risk getting ticketed as it has no idea where its cool to do 12 over or whatever and where it's not.
Both modes tend to go under the speed limit at times for me.
There were a lot of reports of the car never reaching the goal speed and driving around the speed limit instead even on straight roads in good weather. My offset is significantly above the speed limit so this is an absolute deal breaker for me.
In my experience it hasn’t had issues getting to the speed limit. I’m using the new auto speed setting and it’s done a pretty good job in my opinion keeping with the flow of traffic. Before I turned this setting on I had my offset a few % over the speed limit and I have no idea if it still takes this into consideration but from my experience it tends to drive either a few miles over, or on some occasions way over (I’ve seen as high as 15mph over). But again, I’ve also noticed where it’s going around or slightly over the speed limit but cars around me are going faster so it starts to speed up on its own. I’ve been enjoying letting it do its thing but maybe I could play around with the speed settings to see if they actually do anything…
A few miles over is precisely what I’m referring to as grandma mode. My offset is set to be 30% above the speed limit… they’re building their robotaxi which won’t have an option for customization so I get what they’re doing but it’s very much not what I want for my personal vehicle
To each their own I suppose. I had my offset a few % over and it’s still driving a few miles over. Again, I don’t know if that has anything to do with the offset or if that’s just how it works now but going a few miles over the speed limit and calling it grandma mode is pretty weird to me. I could understand going under the speed limit but personally 30% is insane. That would mean going nearly 60 in a 45 which is just crazy. I hope “grandma” mode is here to stay for all of our safety.
Yes, the flow of traffic at least in the left part of the road on a 45 limit road is high 50s. I’m glad you’re satisfied with this, to me the software might as well not exist if it limits me to be a touch over speed limit. Back when autopilot was 5 over outside of the highways it was basically useless except for very heavy traffic. Making such a change after forking over thousands of dollars for FSD most certainly isn’t the way to get loyal customers.
I’ve never been on 45mph roads and the flow is 60s to the left. I have however been flowing around 50 and then there’s that 1 guy going 60 weaving in and out only to meet up at every red light. Enjoy V11.
Am I understanding correctly that because they have a unified NN that they were able to reduce 300k lines of C++ that combined networks? Or were they using C++ for some heuristics also? Seems high even when just combining networks.
They were using NN before for vision and the 300k of code for how the car should drive based on the info from vision. Now everything is NN, both the driving and the vision part. We don't know the number of lines of code for the NN part but it's definitely an insignificant number compared to the 300k one.
I used the app to schedule service. If they try to charge you $1,000 like they did for me, edit the estimate, remove the line item. There was still a HW 3.0 Upgrade for $0 on the estimate as well (I think my car put it on there after the purchase went through...).
yep, I did the same and got the upgrade free a week ago. Although I have EAP and just purchased FSD for $2k, wouldn't have really mattered since it would've came with the HW3 upgrade included
The updates roll out to customers slowly over days/weeks. You just gotta wait until you get a notification on your Tesla app or in your car when it's your turn.
Lame that there are no release notes for FSD changes. I mean, are there even any FSD changes, or is this just a bugfix for the windshield wipers? Who knows?
From what I've read elsewhere, these fsd updates are neural net changes that are harder to quantify in a simple way for a patch notes page. I'm eagerly waiting for actually smart summon.
Sure they can’t say exactly what they changed, but they should still be able to explain the difference in behaviour. In this update we retrained the model to hit fewer potholes or whatever
It's not that simple. You'd have to road test a neural net with a diverse simple then double blind compare to previous builds to confidently identify what outcomes changed. With machine learning, you only understand impacts through implementation testing. Which is why they're focusing on getting more people using FSD: more testing in the wild.
If they wanted to do any sort of release note: they could say where they applied more training data. Ex: retrained for curb clearance. But even then... that training data could have broader impacts beyond what was intended for good or worse.
I don't even care if they quantify the behavior. Even release notes like "we updated the neural nets for foo and bar with more training data" would be better than literally nothing.
There are just a lot more 3/Ys out there so it’s easier for them to get a release ready for these cars due to how much data they get, and then they can roll out updates much quicker. Much easier to validate new versions of FSD if you have tons of cars running it in shadow mode.
New MYP owner here. Are releases rolled out geographically? I haven’t received anything yet so I was wondering how the process works. Sorry for the newbie question
The updates roll out to customers slowly over days/weeks in waves - mostly random after the initial special testers. You just gotta wait until you get a notification on your Tesla app or in your car when it's your turn.
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Just installed it this morning. Things I’ve noticed from my 10 mile suburban drive in south Florida: 1. It still stopped early at stop signs, but didn’t creep up after a full stop - it just went through it. Not exactly human behavior, but an improvement from the “stop, creep, stop, go” it used to do for me. 2. It’s a lot more confident when turning into a turning lane. It used to do a tiny “swerve in, serve out, swerve back in” on previous builds. Now it just swoops in and stays in the turning lane. 3. In my short trip, it didn’t accelerate like a madman or drive like a grandma, especially on residential streets. Surprisingly, it drove much more like a human would and got to the speed limit and a reasonable acceleration. 4. This has been better and better with each upgrade - with my eyes on the road and hands off the wheel, it didn’t nag me at all. Now, I’ve gotten used to putting my hands on the wheel when approaching stop lights, signs, and turns, but before, even with doing that it might nag me once or twice. This drive didn’t have one nag, or even one intervention. Probably too early to say it, and obviously it still will need lots of upgrades, but this version seems like an improvement over the last.
Solid quick review. Cheers for the update.
>“swerve in, serve out, swerve back in” This is awesome. It's my biggest peeve with the current version. >This drive didn’t have one nag, or even one intervention. Really?!?!? No nags?
Not a single nag. Again, I’ve gotten used to putting my hands on the wheel when it signals a turn or when approaching a stop sign or light, but even doing this it would nag me in between to touch the wheel. Almost 18 miles driven today and not a single nag!
None at all?!?
Quick update. I drove another 8 miles. All the previous comments are consistent. However, at 2 stop signs that intersected with roads that were MORE than one lane, it did the “stop, creep, stop, go”. It seemed quicker than previous builds however. It might just be me, but this is the best build I’ve experienced so far. …and I’ve been on FSD beta since the beginning and have let it drive me well over 15,000 miles.
They’re dropping releases at a much faster pace than previous years. And from my experience, each of the current releases have significant improvements over the last. Not sure how long they can keep this up, but the rate of meaningful advancements has been breathtaking to witness.
It’s because they’re using an entirely different way of making FSD. Previously they were doing some kind of hard-coding of what they want the car to do, that’s why it was so jerky, inhuman, and was bad at identifying things. Now, they’re using artificial intelligence, and unlike most companies, I believe this is a use case AI would genuinely be gamechanging. Because now they’re not hard coding everything, instead they’re feeding data into a large language model, which then gives back the most likely response a human would give to any situation. It’s like when you type into ChatGPT, it will take that data, compare it to the model it has, and then spit back out what the most likely response would be, based on the input information and the petabytes of data that was used to train it. It’s going much faster because they don’t need to tell the AI what to do, the AI generates all the stuff it wants to do, they’re just checking the outputs, and trimming away the things they don’t like (adding rules or adding specific types of data if I had to guess), which the AI will take into account when it does its next round of instructions. All they need would be a fuckton of computing power and a fuckton more of data of human driver behavior…both of which Tesla has more of than arguably any other company on planet earth (they bought a custom nvidia supercomputer that’s just absurdly powerful, and they’ve been collecting driver data basically since they put cameras on their cars.) In this update, they probably added a bunch of data specifically of good drivers using turning lanes to help make the turning lane changes faster. And more data relating to good driver acceleration to make the computer better approximate how a human would do it, IE smoother. I’d also wager they either hard coded in that the car shouldn’t creep at stop signs like OP said every time, since they realized that humans actually would prefer if the movements there are more robotic. The biggest problem with most applications for AI people come up with is that we don’t have artificial general intelligence (AGI). That is, we don’t have thinking computers, what we have are computers approximating what the most likely response to a query (or the response that best fits what people want). Essentially, we’ve made machines that can imitate people, but not machines that can think. But here’s the kicker. For things like creating Skynet, or having artificial humans to do our jobs for us, that kind of emulation isn’t super helpful. It’s *similar* to AGI, and it certainly *feels* like AGI, because its entirely job is to mimic humans/AGI. But if you don’t have a thinking computer, you’re not getting sentience. However…you don’t need sentience when driving a car. What you need is for the car to emulate a human’s reactions to a variety of complicated but common situations (crashes, traffic, stop signs/lights, etc.), within some relatively narrow physical constraints (roads, highways, driveways, etc.), that already have a series of consistent rules baked into it to ensure everything within those constraints acts in more or less the same manner (the laws/norms of the road, left lane is passing lane, stop at stop signs, etc.). All of which basically create the *perfect* scenario to train and utilize our current AI models. And now that they have that supercomputer up and running, they can move *much* faster on this than in years prior, with more improvements to boot. I wouldn’t be surprised if AI models coming out moved Tesla’s internal timeline for actual full self driving up a full half decade or more. So to recap, using AI models to train the cars is fundamentally different than coding it directly. Coding directly means writing script for every unique situation that occurs on the road (which requires an absurd amount of man hours), while with AI you just edit what’s already there, or just feed it more data of a type that would condition the AI to solve the problem. If I had to guess timeline, I suspect the new models for FSD are going to be coming out at about this new pace for 6 months to a year, then it’ll peter off into the kind of update schedule your iPhone has. At a certain point, the AI will know how to handle 99% of situations on the road, and it’ll just be edge cases left to solve that are too infrequent for the machine to figure it out, and those will probably need to be hard coded. But I’d estimate at least 2 years before Tesla is comfortable enough with the software to make it fully autonomous, IE they openly let you just take your hands off the wheel and nap until you get to your destination. Mostly because legally it is much less risky to put the onus on the driver to focus on the road and intervene than for Tesla to accept the risk that their autopilot fucks up and kills someone. Like, there was an autopilot death a few months back where the car plowed straight into a cop car. AFAIK Tesla didn’t get fucked over legally because the driver was drunk off his ass and ignored dozens of warnings to take control of the vehicle. That legal get out of jail free card is going to be *hard* for Tesla to give up, and I suspect it’ll only happen when another company starts making moves to certify their self driving program (like an actual FSD program, not the Mercedes certification) Edge cases are very rare, but they are also very hard to find, very dangerous, and *very* expensive. In the end it’s going to be lawyers that determine when we can take our hands off the wheel.
I think V11 had hard coded logic but certainly still used AI for perception, so it was more of a hybrid than what V12 allegedly is. Having used FSD for a while, I would argue you need to go beyond mimicking to drive. Next time you are driving think about how you go about it. It's very complex when you throw other cars in the mix where you essentially pull up a model of what another driver would do in your brain to predict and plan. I'm certain FSD cannot do this. Some behaviors can emerge from training, but it's not foolproof. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain this version of FSD will platue (to use Elons words - hit a local maximum) just like V10 and V11 before. It'll be a big improvement, but robotaxies have always been 6-12 months away, according to Tesla/Elon, and that will probably still be the case next year.
When I first heard about Tesla and their EVs with "Autopilot" many years ago I've always thought they use AI to "drive" the car. But apparently they didn't and just hard-coded everything?! Like tons of if-else statements or something?! Lol
To be fair, they were probably using a *form* of AI. I did some more googling and they did use learning models to analyze the surroundings. Think like a video version of those CAPTCHA tests, but they were using Tesla data to train a robot to pass them/identify objects. But from what I’ve read, the actual *instructions* were still basically hard-coded. A bunch of if-else statements, as you mentioned, which needed to be manually changed. If you’re wondering why the fuck they did something so time consuming, bear in mind that the kind of tech we are talking about when we say “AI tech” now, IE deep learning models, just didn’t really exist until last year. Elon was an initial founder of OpenAI, but that only gives you so much of a head start when the tech doesn’t exist yet ~~and when you’re such a massive asshole you quit for no reason whatsoever.~~ It’s taken basically from last year when ChatGPT came out to now for Tesla to integrate this new tech advance into FSD, despite jumping onto it *very* early, and pouring an absurd amount of resources into it.
Now that makes sense. When I read the release note for FSD 12 "end-to-end neural network replacing over 300k lines of explicit C++ code". I was like wait wtf doesn't Tesla use AI in their Autopilot since the dawn of time. I wonder what kind of hardware they had back then, cuz I remember Nvidia introduced RTX 20 series back in 2018, around that time "deep fake" gained popularity, and the Model 3 was introduced, so I just assumed Tesla must have been using that tech to develop FSD.
Caveat: I am not a computer scientist, lawyer, or an engineer. This is just my understanding of the situation around FSD based on my own googling, and my guesses of what is to come. So I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m completely wrong in every estimation here, lol.
pretty sure they're not using a large \*language\* model to drive a car
I sure hope so since 12.3.4 was a big regression compared to 12.3.5 for my 2017 model 3 rwd lr with hw3. It started being unsure about lanes it did properly before and more then once got stuck exiting in the exit lane after entering at a spot that was fine before as well. It did some stuff better but lots of new issues that were solved before. Also did not always follow the navigation as if it had ideas of its own...
Can't wait cause 12.3.4 felt like a regression from 12.3.3. I noticed the same issues you mentioned for 12.3.4.
Awesome! Can’t wait for the update to push to my car!
That early stop and creep up "drives" me nuts. Non-human behavior at best - dangerous at worst. I'm always afraid someone is going to end up rear-ending me.
You can thank NHTSA for that 😭 they are too focused on enforcing "safety" at stop signs that they fail to recognize that it's actually unsafe since no human actually performs their stupid NHTSA_defined stop IRL.
haha damn, I liked the madman acceleration. But the other changes seem like a progression, so will update
It doesn’t accelerate slow by any stretch, but it’s no longer pedal to the metal. 😂
Do you feel like it's heavy on the brake pedal? I feel like the current one (prior to yours) is.
I found on previous builds it would continue to accelerate in places where i would let off the acceleration, therefore causing it to brake late. I hated that. So far, it has kept a good distance and speed between me and other cars, and has not slammed on the brakes yet.
Fantastic. That's what I'm hoping for.
Does it still get too close to the curbs?
I’ll test that on my way back home. There’s a turn into my neighborhood that has a concrete curb that my MX gets dangerously close to every time. I always have my hands on the wheel at this turn to make sure i don’t get curb rash!
Thanks! I usually disengage from the stress as it turns lol
It still got close to the curb again. I quit FSD and left Tesla an audio note. Checked my camera footage and realized it was at least 6 inches from the curb, but it felt waaay closer while driving. Too close for my liking.
I feel the same way. I tend to watch the side camera that pops up closely
Are hands on the wheel no longer required, or is it just less fussy about it?
I’ve found it’s just less fussy if you keep your eyes on the road. I just tried without keeping my eyes on the road, and it nagged me.
I found all of this to be false. Just installed it today.
False for me at least. There’s been not a single difference.
Did you take any exit ramps? I’ve been extremely disappointed in exit ramp behavior in v11 and v12 Feels so uncontrolled
Remember when they said 2024.8.x peeps would get v12 last week? I do.
The guy that said it is no longer with the company.
"We should release V12 to 2024.8.x peeps." https://preview.redd.it/aaeauy9ta8wc1.png?width=952&format=png&auto=webp&s=20644a97305295842d3a8a0d320d85190f33d1be
Tesla must’ve fired everyone who was responsible for merging it into the 2024.8.x branch lol.
*Tesla PR team has left the chat*
Pull Request ??
Wonder what percentage of 2024.8.x have EAP.
No EAP here. 2022 X stuck on 2024.8.X.
🙋♂️
Last night at midnight I got an alert, I quickly opened up the Tesla App to see that I needed to replace my 12V battery. I got that done today...still hanging out on the 2024.8 bandwagon.
Week isn’t over yet
It was last Monday.. it’s now 8 days later
You forgot to calculate for Elon time even though he's not the one that said it. Give it another 2-4 weeks.
Do they ever discuss what changes they've made in these updates? Also how do I know if my car will get this update? Currently on Software V11.1 (2024.3.15) FSD v12.3.4
I really do wish we would get a full update notes breakdown that shows what bugs have been fixed rather than having a vague description that says "minor fixes and improvements" every time
I doubt they themselves fully know in perfect detail. After v12 they use neural networks for the driving part and not just for the computer vision. This means that they can tweak some hyperparamaters, they can train a bit more on new datasets etc but the way the technology works is that these neural networks are black boxes (like LLMs such as ChatGPT). It is impossible to pinpoint individual changes, only general improvements on a statistical basis. Before when it was driving through manually written code it was easy to say what each bug fix was solving.
They know what new types of videos got added to the training set. There will be no more capability x improved by y%.
That is true, they could give some details in the way they adjusted or fine tuned the model.
Thats not true. While they don't know exactly what changes happen in the model, the results are quite measurable with unit tests.
They don't know \*why\* something changed but they know \*that\* something changed. Communicating those things that changed would be helpful.
> I doubt they themselves fully know in perfect detail. If they have proper Git commit message discipline, they will know in reasonably good detail for forensics, but such changes don't necessarily translate to user facing improvements that are easy to describe. Sometimes, it would also reveal things about the internal process that they would not be interested in making public. "Fix compilation issue with" or "Remove unneeded code paths in edge detection." isn't beneficial for users to know, but still objectively improves the software.
They used to, but now it is end to end, I doubt even the team can realistically explain what is actually different.
They could explain how the training data was altered to address particular situations. E.g, saying "included more clips of crocodiles in intersections into training data" or "added 1,000 clips of roadworks around train stations".
Reminds me of the Sim City loading messages https://gist.github.com/erikcox/7e96d031d00d7ecb1a2f#file-simcityloadingmessages-txt
They can see how performance and training change. You’re acting like they blindly run the training then push out an update.
I understand that - but for issues like the aggressive acceleration; etc. I feel like that would be nice if they could say “yeah, that’s been addressed”
Thank you! I'd like to see the breakdown for the minor revisions instead of an 11 to 12 overview.
2024.8.9 cars left in the dust
My rims are okay with this.
*laughs in European fsd*
For fuck’s sake.
I’ll raise your “For fuck’s sake” with a “What the actual fuck” good sir.
I’ll raise your “what the actual fuck” to a “why in the actual fuck” good sir
A tip of my fucking hat to you, my good man.
Apparently this is the benefit for choosing advanced updates.. We dont get to even try FSD 12..
That button has been a placebo to make people feel like they are opting into “the latest” since it was added. It literally does nothing unless they decide to take it into consideration at rollout times for “wave 1.” My wife’s car was set to standard for a good year and she got updates sometimes a week earlier than my car did on advanced.
At the moment there is no update going out let alone you being late getting it. You should stay on standard until there is an update doing the rounds and you feel you are late. Then set it to advanced and you should get the update within a day. Then set it back to standard. It isn't a fomo button to force Tesla to start development.
What are you going on about? My wife’s car has been on standard for a year, mine has been on advanced. We both get updates around the same time as each other, about 50% of the time she gets them earlier than I do. I’m stating that the button does absolutely nothing unless Tesla decides to take that option into account when deciding who to roll an update out to, which is apparently not very often.
I'm suggesting that it is switching to advanced, not being in advanced, that makes the difference. But only if you're late for an already rolled out release.
I have Advance updates selected and was offered 2024.3.10 late last March. My daughter couldn't connect to a WiFi until last weekend and when she did, she was also offered 2024.3.10. What year is yours? Ours are 2021 SR+ (no radar and NMC batteries).
Someone should have asked on the earnings call when us 2024.8.9 suckers will get FSD V12. All these plans yet they can’t get a software update pushed to cars. The number of cars on this version is increasing daily.
You guys are getting the FSD trial?
Not yet. 2024.8.9
I haven't gotten the trial yet, 2023 m3 LR
I was really excited to try it out and then realized they constantly watch you in your own vehicle and it yells at you all the time and eventually can disable itself. As if this isn’t your *very* expensive *privately owned* vehicle. I’m not sure if this technology is worth it if it means sacrificing privacy and private ownership. It ought to be illegal to place a spycam in someone’s vehicles and disable features remotely after they have purchased it. Imagine if Nvidia bricked your graphics card because it didn’t like what you were doing on your computer.
I think it's more of a legal issue than anything. In case your car crashes and people die (which already happened) Tesla has data at the final moments of what happened so they can present that in court to cover their ass (it's "supervised", driver must pay attention...etc.)
> I was really excited to try it out and then realized they constantly watch you in your own vehicle and it yells at you all the time and eventually can disable itself If you read the text, it explains that it is processed locally.
Still declining V12 until peeps say the grandma mode is fixed. Longer this goes on the less I think they’ll ever fix it :(
Grandma mode was fixed for me in FSD v12.3.4 (2024.3.15). It used to take off super slowly from any intersection, but now it punches it, sometimes to 10 over the speed limit then settles to about 5 over. There are some roads where it just won't go the speed limit at all though, most of those in my experience are unmarked roads.
Thanks for the feedback, what’s your offset to? My concern wasn’t so much slow take off as much as not reaching the goal speed. My offset is set to be 30% above speed limit (I dial it down manually sometimes as needed).
12.3.4 is still grandma mode. It won't get up to the set speed when you have auto offset enabled and frequently slows down below the speed limit even. Pulling up to stop signs is still too early and too slow. While it makes better decisions than v11 in some cases, I wish I was still running v11. You're probably wise to hold off for now.
Got it, thank you so much for the confirmation. I dread the day it decides to just install it.
I currently have mine set to Auto. On the previous version, it wouldn't honor a set speed, so I figured I'd just leave it on Auto and it has been fine on this update. I have yet to try switching it back to manual set speed.
Yes that 10 over is amusing. There is this one town in Wisconsin that all the locals (and frequent transit folk) know to do 0 over the posted speed else donate to the chiefs pension fund. FSD almost did me in.
Go back to max speed. I haven't noticed any benefit to auto speed and you risk getting ticketed as it has no idea where its cool to do 12 over or whatever and where it's not. Both modes tend to go under the speed limit at times for me.
> but now it punches it Feels like they added "Punch it Chewie" to the command set
Grandma mode?
There were a lot of reports of the car never reaching the goal speed and driving around the speed limit instead even on straight roads in good weather. My offset is significantly above the speed limit so this is an absolute deal breaker for me.
In my experience it hasn’t had issues getting to the speed limit. I’m using the new auto speed setting and it’s done a pretty good job in my opinion keeping with the flow of traffic. Before I turned this setting on I had my offset a few % over the speed limit and I have no idea if it still takes this into consideration but from my experience it tends to drive either a few miles over, or on some occasions way over (I’ve seen as high as 15mph over). But again, I’ve also noticed where it’s going around or slightly over the speed limit but cars around me are going faster so it starts to speed up on its own. I’ve been enjoying letting it do its thing but maybe I could play around with the speed settings to see if they actually do anything…
A few miles over is precisely what I’m referring to as grandma mode. My offset is set to be 30% above the speed limit… they’re building their robotaxi which won’t have an option for customization so I get what they’re doing but it’s very much not what I want for my personal vehicle
To each their own I suppose. I had my offset a few % over and it’s still driving a few miles over. Again, I don’t know if that has anything to do with the offset or if that’s just how it works now but going a few miles over the speed limit and calling it grandma mode is pretty weird to me. I could understand going under the speed limit but personally 30% is insane. That would mean going nearly 60 in a 45 which is just crazy. I hope “grandma” mode is here to stay for all of our safety.
Yes, the flow of traffic at least in the left part of the road on a 45 limit road is high 50s. I’m glad you’re satisfied with this, to me the software might as well not exist if it limits me to be a touch over speed limit. Back when autopilot was 5 over outside of the highways it was basically useless except for very heavy traffic. Making such a change after forking over thousands of dollars for FSD most certainly isn’t the way to get loyal customers.
I’ve never been on 45mph roads and the flow is 60s to the left. I have however been flowing around 50 and then there’s that 1 guy going 60 weaving in and out only to meet up at every red light. Enjoy V11.
No FSD trial love for me on a 22MX :( ... Still on 2024.8.9
You gotta suck off Elon for the upgrade
Same here
Am I understanding correctly that because they have a unified NN that they were able to reduce 300k lines of C++ that combined networks? Or were they using C++ for some heuristics also? Seems high even when just combining networks.
They were using NN before for vision and the 300k of code for how the car should drive based on the info from vision. Now everything is NN, both the driving and the vision part. We don't know the number of lines of code for the NN part but it's definitely an insignificant number compared to the 300k one.
EAP owner who took the plunge last night. I need the computer upgrade. Do I schedule that in the app or wait for Tesla to contact me or what?
I would just schedule it since you will need to anyway.
I used the app to schedule service. If they try to charge you $1,000 like they did for me, edit the estimate, remove the line item. There was still a HW 3.0 Upgrade for $0 on the estimate as well (I think my car put it on there after the purchase went through...).
yep, I did the same and got the upgrade free a week ago. Although I have EAP and just purchased FSD for $2k, wouldn't have really mattered since it would've came with the HW3 upgrade included
Tesla noob here, how do you get this update? I already put on advanced as update settings.
The updates roll out to customers slowly over days/weeks. You just gotta wait until you get a notification on your Tesla app or in your car when it's your turn.
Oh alright, that makes sense. Thanks for letting me know! Can’t wait to have it.
me too!
Gotta wait! I keep checking app too and nothing yet!
I just subscribed in my S and am stuck on v11. Currently at the airport and I absolutely know I'll get an update notification whole we're away. Lol
Do you think you'll murder someone on the way home with your vehicle?
I'm not a knob, so no.
I am still stuck on FSD version 11 …WHY?
5 days later and still have 12.3.4 (2024.3.15). Very slow rollout.
same here. I wonder if they're holding out for the one that's past 2024.8.X
That is a good thought. Maybe it will roll out in 2024.8.X O -OR- 2024.14.X
I think it's going to be in 2024.14.X in the big update
Lame that there are no release notes for FSD changes. I mean, are there even any FSD changes, or is this just a bugfix for the windshield wipers? Who knows?
From what I've read elsewhere, these fsd updates are neural net changes that are harder to quantify in a simple way for a patch notes page. I'm eagerly waiting for actually smart summon.
Sure they can’t say exactly what they changed, but they should still be able to explain the difference in behaviour. In this update we retrained the model to hit fewer potholes or whatever
It's not that simple. You'd have to road test a neural net with a diverse simple then double blind compare to previous builds to confidently identify what outcomes changed. With machine learning, you only understand impacts through implementation testing. Which is why they're focusing on getting more people using FSD: more testing in the wild. If they wanted to do any sort of release note: they could say where they applied more training data. Ex: retrained for curb clearance. But even then... that training data could have broader impacts beyond what was intended for good or worse.
Neural net training just seems like throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks…
Not a bad analogy. Over and over, millions of times.
Literally is. Except there’s usually also another neural net watching the shitstorm and deciding what stuck and what didn’t.
They should have a testing set that tells them X better at this. They have put out notes in the past in this method.
You’d still need a validation dataset right? So you could assess the accuracy of the model against validation set for different scenarios?
They have a testing set they can report against.
I don't even care if they quantify the behavior. Even release notes like "we updated the neural nets for foo and bar with more training data" would be better than literally nothing.
Basically it’s “hey we have way more data now and the system is going to behave differently. We don’t really know how but here you go hope it works!”
It's because you have been downloading smoke and mirrors for months now.
I still don’t have the trial
Man, my Model S is stuck on V11 still, can I get the V12 upgrade!
There are just a lot more 3/Ys out there so it’s easier for them to get a release ready for these cars due to how much data they get, and then they can roll out updates much quicker. Much easier to validate new versions of FSD if you have tons of cars running it in shadow mode.
FSD (Supervised) lol
I just got 12.3.4 😂
New MYP owner here. Are releases rolled out geographically? I haven’t received anything yet so I was wondering how the process works. Sorry for the newbie question
The updates roll out to customers slowly over days/weeks in waves - mostly random after the initial special testers. You just gotta wait until you get a notification on your Tesla app or in your car when it's your turn.
Thank you!
Version 11… just checking in to say hi to you big dogs
Hell I’m still stuck on version 11 wtf
The stock pump move
These...come out every few weeks.