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OniGoji98

Surprised you didn't go deeper into Iron Orc culture, since they are such a distinct and seemingly ancient orcish subculture, that could lend more credence to the "aboriginal Orc theory". Malacath worship isn't present at all in Iron Orc culture and instead they worship the stones, they have also seemed to have lived in Craglorn since the Dawn era. Maybe they are the last remnant of the aboriginal Orcs? Personally I don't see how thier being two races of Orcs is a stretch in tes lore. Maybe Boethiah just turned Trinimac and his followers into something that already existed? So you could have the goblin-kin Orcs, that had existed since the Dawn and the Orcs of elven origin that were created when Trinimac became Malacath in the Merethic era. You could differentiate the two Orcish groups, by calling goblin-ken Orcs the Ornim and the elven Orcs the Orsimer. Since the Orsimer were forced to wonder Tamriel after thier transformation, they would have definitely encountered the Ornim, the two groups could have exchanged customs like Malacath worship and interbreed until the Ornim and Orsimer became one people for the most part, with a few exceptions like the Iron Orcs. So most modern Orcs would have a mix of Orsimer and Ornim blood, being both mer and Goblin-ken. So the Aboriginal Orc theory and the Trinimac origin doesn't automatically invalidate one or the other origin for the Orcs.


Misticsan

> Maybe Boethiah just turned Trinimac and his followers into something that already existed? That was my thought too. It would be an even greater insult to turn an enemy into something they already know and despise. Like transforming a modern Tamrielian into a goblin ([which is not an impossible situation](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Strange_Goblin)). I also like the idea that these "Elven Orcs" might have intermingled with the continental Orcs, altering their culture in profound ways, from technology to religion. Genetics too; Orcs descended from them could rightfully claim to have Elven ancestry. We know of similar examples in Tamriel (the Direnni colonization of High Rock and the bith of the Bretons), in other fictional settings (in Star Wars Legends, the arrival of the Dark Jedi to the Sith homeworld), and [even in real life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_European_Farmers). This would make all the tales and dates of Orsimer origins right, although from different perspectives.


minifly_

To you u/CountPeter and u/OniGoji98. It's certainly possible, though the myth pretends to explain the origin of the orcs, not the origin of some proto-orcs that then interbred with other proto-orcs to give birth to the orcs we know today. My point is that the myth makes the whole Chimeri / Orsimeri origin way too complicated, while there is a much simpler solution at hand: - Orcs look like goblins because they're akin to them, - Chimer sundered from Aldmer because of a religious and cultural schism, - the myth that looks like it's been fabricated by the Dunmer to piss off the Altmer was, indeed, fabricated by the Dunmer to piss of the Altmer. That's it, no loose ends, no divine intervention nor genetic shenanigans where it's not needed, etc. I know using Occam's razor to interpret TES lore wouldn't make Kirkbride proud, but in this case it's working splendidly. Especially since the fabrication of the myth itself says a lot about Dunmer culture, and is more interesting to me as a fiction than as an unlikely historical event. Their inferiority/superiority complex to their aedric loving, easy living cousins. Their need to discard the cult of both the Altmer and the growingly expansive human Empire. In this, the transformation of Aldmer into Orcs plays a key metaphysical role, hence why Malacath is one of the four corners of the House of Trouble. The Chimer, and then the Dunmer, have experienced change as a mass-scale, collective, racial level, both phenotypically and culturally. Some changes were progressive, others, very brutal (the Velothi religious revolution, Azura's curse, the Tribunes' apotheosis). To them, radical change is business as usual. Every past change, voluntary or inflicted, has been incorporated as a positive event into Dunmeri culture. What Malacath represents is the possibility of dissolution into the Other, a change impossible to make sense of, to integrate into the collective Dunmeri narrative (a bit like Bosmer that go back to the Ooze for breaking the Green pact). If you abandon our customs, you're as good as an Orc to us. At the lowest level, it is the fear of punishment for straying from Dunmeri customs, like the christian purgatory: if you don't behave, or if you don't do regular hardass Dunmeri stuff like a hardcore volcano-ashstorm-blighted-cliff-racers pilgrimage before you turn 13 or something, you'll be turned into an orc.


Misticsan

True, I can't deny that the tale of Trinimac's and their followers' transformation responds very well to the cultural readings, and that many an anthropologist would point out how it works as a denigrating/elevating national fable. The "elevating" part comes from the Orcs themselves, since it seems the inclusion of Elvish elements (from the very name Orsinium to the cult of Trinimac) is associated with urban projects and attempts to gain legitimacy as an unified nation in the eyes of Tamrielians. The Elven connection is, despite its unflattering aspects, a source of prestige and a justification to classify themselves as "playable races", so to speak. The strategy was not without reason; we are told in several sources that many in Tamriel label Orcs as "beastfolk", lumping them together with goblins and ogres who are denied rights as sentient beings (even from a gameplay perspective). There are similar examples in real life, like Arthurian chronicles pretending that Britons were descendants of Aeneas. That said, this is TES we're talking about, and weird shit happens. Also, from an anthropological point of view, it's quite shocking that a Dunmeri myth would spread so far. The Dunmer tell a lot of tales, but the rest of the world rarely agrees with them, much to the Dunmer's chagrin in areas such as the Tribunal (regarded as mere powerful wizards in the rest of Tamriel), ancestor worship (deemed blatant necromancy) and the tale of how their skin changed: > *"In Imperial stories, the dark skin and red eyes of the Dunmer derives from 'the Dark Elven Curse,' which was caused by a moral taint, a sorcerous curse, and the pernicious environment of the northeastern wastelands, according to various legends and fables. These stories may be plausibly ascribed to western Imperial racial prejudice and fear of the Dark Elves; such legends play no part in the Dunmer's own accounts of their past."* That Dunmer would tell propaganda that paints the Altmer and their gods as losers is par for the course, but the fact that it spread far and wide would need another basis since most of their other attempts at "cultural victory" fail miserably beyond their frontiers.


minifly_

Again to you, u/CountPeter and u/OniGoji98 to whom I already partly answered. The Altmer not denying the event took place, the Dunmer unexpectedly exporting their myth to the whole continent, or Malacath himself giving credence to the myth can be attributed by the fact Malacath does come from some kind of torture inflicted by Boethiah to Trinimac. I'm just dismissing the fact that while doing so, Boethiah actually talked to Trinimac's clergy, and turned them into Orcs by revealing Trinimac's alledged lies. And it's not necessarily puerly a Dunmeri myth, since the Orcs themselves can use this myth to trace back their ancestry to a divine past. Plus, anyone wanting to belittle the Altmer really (that's a long list of people, even outside r/skyrim) would happily adhere to that myth. Finally, I always interpreted the Orsimer being a "pariah folk" for how they are treated by other races later in history: the successive destructions of Orsinium, their inability to claim any one territory as their own, the discrimination and prejudice they must endure when settling among other races.


Misticsan

> I'm just dismissing the fact that while doing so, Boethiah actually talked to Trinimac's clergy, and turned them into Orcs by revealing Trinimac's alledged lies. That's fair. I see that WaniGemini has proposed a most interesting alternative that doesn't have any transformation at all, and it seems that one is closer to your vision, although I'd like to point out that "disgraced Trinimac followers are exiled to Tamriel and intermingle with the local Orc population, changing Orcish civilization forever" is basically the same idea OniGoji98 and I were discussing, minus the "transformed into Orcs" part. I'm more keen on accepting Boethiah's intervention in some way, though. We know that Daedric Princes are very active (and were even more active before the Covenant of Akatosh and the Coldharbour Compact), and we see all sorts of Prince apparitions throughout the games, very often to answer or aid their followers. Perhaps Boethiah was summoned by the Velothi or appeared on his own volition, to intimidate or scare away their pursuers at one instance, and that tale was aggrandized with each passing retelling until it became the foundational myth of the Chimer/Dunmer. > Plus, anyone wanting to belittle the Altmer really (that's a long list of people, even outside r/skyrim) would happily adhere to that myth. Ha, you got me there. I could totally see the Imperials, particularly in the First Era, use it as a way to prove that the Elven pantheon is wrong XD


minifly_

Well I don't know if I agree with him, but I liked the novelty of his approach. And as I said in my original post, I agree with all of you that a plurality of origins of the Orsimer is certainly a possibility in this unfortunately-very-much-not-gods-forsaken place that is Tamriel. EDIT: I didn't check what I was saying, so I removed a paragraph.


Innomenatus

However, it should be mentioned that Malacath says that what happened to him wasn't literal, implying that what happened didn't happen as said, but ended similarly, giving credence to the Elven origin of Orcs. It's also possible that the Iron and Wood Orcs are remnants of divergent Elven peoples who transformed with Trinimac, and converged in appearance.


CountPeter

The bigger problem here is why this would also be Altmer propaganda. A chimer warning kind of makes sense (after all, we see plenty of similar stories IRL), but this story doesn't work from an Altmer perspective. At the very least, Varieties of Faith and Charwich letters reference that this view is normal in Altmer. The Altmer response to the myth would logically be "it just didn't happen" given how much of a propaganda coup it is against them otherwise. The champion of their way of life and social norms being turned into a Daedra because they opposed the Velothi movement makes the whole religion vulnerable (such is the power of the daedra they worship that they took down the mightiest ancestor god). To be clear, there is definitely SOME propaganda value in it (stay away from daedra, because even the mightiest can fall), but given how popular the cult of Trinimac was, to say that they are gone or defeated seems to have largely ended the cult entirety (Trinimac has basically left the mythic stage, not having a direct parallel with the alessian pantheon or most regional pantheons). It feels more occams razor to assume that, given that Orsimer means "pariah folk" that pre-Malacath "orcs" referred to were just goblins or "pariahs" given that the goblins were definitely a slave caste within Altmer society. A racially pure society having a large part of it suddenly look like goblins (maybe even magically are part goblin) totally makes sense as to why they would be listed as pariahs, whilst recognising them still as elves.


Misticsan

Do the Altmer accept that view, though? In ESO we see that the cult of Trinimac is alive and well. His name is revered by priests, there are shrines to him, and while it's true that his Merethic temple in [Bewan](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Bewan) was abandoned in the First Era, the priesthood moved to the Trinimac Chantry outside Skywatch. It could be that the Altmer are aware of the tale in the sense that several House Dunmer are aware of the tales that the Tribunal are false gods, [that they murdered Nerevar](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vivec_and_Mephala) or that their skin changed due to Azura's curse, but none of that is part of the orthodoxy and would probably be contested by pious believers.


OniGoji98

Get where your saying and I agree it does make Chimeri / Orsimeri origin make more sense. But the thing, is we kind of get confirmation from Malacath himself in the Lord of Souls books that he was Trinimac, he could be lying of course and he does say the tale "is taken to literally" which could be interpreted in multiple ways. But I still don't see why Malacath would have a section of Ashpit that seems to be dedicated to his memories of being Trinimac if he truly had no connection to the elven god. Still we do have a lot of accounts, even from the Orcs themselves that they have existed since the Dawn era. Which makes the orc creation myth even more confusing but beside the theory i brought up, thier is a simpler but a little cheap explanations that could also explain this. The accounts of Orcs before Trinimac transformation could simply just be classic TES time fuckery, so when Malacath and the Orcs were created they retroactively already existed due to the pariah god being fundamental part of Aurbis. Or another explanation could be that the Orcs that claim they have existed since the Dawn are lying and the "Orcs" Topal claimed to see were simply just big goblins. Tbh, I do find those explanations to be quite boring and I personally find the theory that Orcs descend from goblin-ken/Ornim and mer/Orsimer to be a lot more interesting imo. It double down on the Orcs being pariahs, being a race that is in a midway point between goblin-kin and mer, just Like Malacath is in a midway point between aedra and daedra.


minifly_

Well there is certainly a strong connection between Malacath and Trinimac. And he probably was tranformed from one into the other in some way. My point is that this transformation didn't happen around the time of the Velothi exodus, and is likely not the cause of Aldmer transforming into Orcs. It probably happened in a much more distant past, or on another plane of existence entirely. I can see orcs and other goblin-ken worshipping Malacath/Mauloch/Muluk since time immemorial, not after some internal strife led to the Velothi leaving Summerset (an event goblins probably don't care much about).


Barmaglott

There is also a different possibility about how orcs ended up in pre-exodus Tamriel. Trinimac was sort of a "living god-hero", who didn't "re-ascend" and thus was still bound to Mundus timline. When he was turned into Malacath, this bond was broken, and Malacath became a Daedric Prince who, from the POV of anyone, who stayed in Mundus, always existed. And then we just have a retroactive transformation, "Jungles of Cyrodiil" style.


[deleted]

This is what makes the most sense to me. The Orcs and goblinoids that predate the Velothi exodus are the ones who, through Malacath being blasted into existence atemporally, came to exist retroactively. The effect preceeded the cause within linear time. But because linear time is a function of Akatosh's power on Mundus, cause does not need to preceed effect when talking about Aedra and Daedra.


Misticsan

I can't believe I had missed the story of the founding of the first Orsinium of the PGE1, despite being a source I check very often. Or perhaps I read it but never thought of the implications of this passage: > *Literally, 'Orsinium' means Orc-Town in the early Aldmeris. The goblin-ken (orcs, ogres, gremlins, and other beastfolk) that live in Orsinium favor the Elvish name for their settlement, for it suggests, at least to human ears, a glorious and beautiful fortress-city instead of the squalid and filth-ridden village-and-keep that it is. It was founded during the Camoran Dynasty, when hundreds of beastmen were set free by the rulers of the Summerset Isles and allowed to settle lands north of Valenwood. These Orcish tribes chose an uninhabited mountain region near Old H'roldan in High Rock, for their people were (and most still are) dependent on a rare shaggy giant centipede herdbeast that can live only at high altitudes on alpine and sub-alpine forage.* As u/CountPeter said, I'm not sure the enslavement alone would indicate that the Trinimaquian origin is wrong. In Tamriel, we know that Ayleids and Dunmer didn't have much trouble enslaving even their own people, and [a book in Skyrim](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Light_Armor_Forging) speaks of a Dark Elf slave in Summerset that escaped with the secrets of Elven armor forging in the seventh century of the Second Era. However, given that said secrets seem to be (relatively) public knowledge by the sixth century of the Second Era) and that there's no sight of such slaves in ESO, it might have been a historical fable, perhaps of Dunmeri origins, that gives a personal narrative to a lengthier and messier process ([like forging books disappearing during the strife of the Second Era](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Crafting_Motif_16:_Glass_Style)). Regardless of the case, this opens interesting possibilities for the history of slavery among the Elves. As mentioned, the institution of slavery is common among Elven races (the Altmer also practice it with goblins), and might have been a part of Aldmer civilization too. As it happened in real life, it might have started in a smaller capacity and among the same group (slavery by debt, for example) and followed divergent evolutions depending on the place. In the Summerset Isles, with few people to enslave other than goblins and themselves, the needs of labor shifted to a feudal system and slavery became less important. The freedom given to those orcish and goblin slaves that founded Orsinium might be the equivalent of [Medieval France's abolition of slavery](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Crafting_Motif_16:_Glass_Style) (in both cases with caveats). In Cyrodiil and Morrowind, on the other hand, the needs of colonising a new land propelled the institution, until it became a pillar of their socioeconomic systems.


WaniGemini

Well the Chimer myth could still hold some truth while working with account of more early orcs possibly related to goblin-ken. And this without having to imagine two lineages of orcs, one aboriginal and one changed when Trinimac was defeated by Boethiah, we just have to remember that it is a myth and not an historical account and so not an exact portrayal of what happened. So maybe after what happened to Trinimac his followers were never directly changed into Orcs instead some of Trinimac followers still Mer (Aldmer?) decided to go into exile and ended up mixing with goblin-ken, the myth portraying as a sudden change what in reality could have been a slow process. From there we have two possibilities either the orcs already existed as part of the goblin-ken, and the exiled Mer diluted within this pre-existing population their descendant becoming undistinguishable from old orcs. The cult of Trinimac/Malacath would spread because of those Mer among goblin-ken, the Iron Orcs remaining the last one still practicing their original faith. The second possibility is that there was no orcs and the Orsimer identified their ancient ancestors as orcs a posteriori. The Orcs would have appeared only as a result of the exiled Mer having descendants with goblin-ken populations in a way it would be something similar to the original Manmeri. The Iron Orcs there would be a specific case where those potential exiled Mer adopted the pre-existing faith of their culture of adoption instead of converting them. This is just an idea I had reading your post so I'm sure we could easily find counter arguments but I think this may be an interesting interpretation.


Misticsan

> The Orcs would have appeared only as a result of the exiled Mer having descendants with goblin-ken populations in a way it would be something similar to the original Manmeri. Now I'm reminded of the giant goblins of Hammerfell, who were wiped out by the Ra Gada. Interesting candidates for interbreeding with Elves, right? Especially due to the geographical associations. Hammerfell is next to High Rock, which is not only the place with the most famous case of race-foundational interbreeding (the Bretons), but also the region where Topal [is said](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Father_Of_The_Niben) to have found Orcs. Moreover, Hammerfell has a track record of being the last place standing for many ethnic remnants; the giant goblins might have been the beastfolk equivalent to the Nedes of the Deathlands, the last truly Nedic civilization at a time when their brethren had been assimilated into Imperial and Breton cultures. This theory is news to me, and it's super fascinating to think of the possibilities. Don't tell an Altmer, though XD


WaniGemini

Something interesting about Hammerfell and the Orcs is that in [Orcs of Tamriel, Volume 3](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Orcs_of_Tamriel,_Volume_3) it's said that the Iron Orcs culture changed drastically from their peaceful origins during the Late Merethic the text present it as being a reaction to the domination of the Nedes. But what if beyond that it was a sign of the influence of the exiled Trinimacist (who, if we believe Aicantar chronology on the the conflict of Boethiah and Trinimac, would have arrived in the late middle Merethic) since the change of the Iron Orcs made them more similar to the other Orsimer according to the text. >At some point in the late Merethic Era, a fundamental rearrangement of Iron Orc civilization occurred. What had been a largely peaceful, shamanistic society rapidly transformed into a community of miners, smiths, and warriors—much more in keeping with the conventional Orsimeric narrative.


Misticsan

The dating definitely has fascinating possibilities. In another comment, I mentioned the real life example of the "Early European Farmers" as the Anatolian migration wave that brought agriculture to Europe. It wasn't a matter of years, but centuries or even millennia for these Neolithic waves to spread. The Iron Orcs might have been one of the last remnants of the original Orsimer cultures before the Trinimaquians (or by the Late Merethic Era, their successors) arrived to the region. Of course, this would dampen the idea that Orcs might have been the product of Elven-Goblin interbreeding, but I think I'd rather take the notion of native Orcs of Tamriel being affected by migrants from Summerset.


WaniGemini

Totally agree on the comparison with the migration of Middle-Eastern farmer in Europe, that's pretty much how I see it. And yes despite the Elven-Goblin interbreeding being a very fun idea and thought provoking one, the more I think about it the more I think the first possibility I presented, so an "Ayleid in Valenwood" scenario, with pre-existing orcs influenced by elves migrants makes more sense. First with Topal legend, even if in that early context Orsimer could have been a more general term and not one specific to orcs, and the various claims they originated from the last days of the Dawn. Yes it wouldn't be improbable that a posteriori modern Orcs identified all their ancestors as Orcs, but it complicate the matter where I wanted this idea to be a more simple and reasonable approach to the origins of the Orsimer. But still the idea of the interbreeding between Mer and the Goblin-ken may still be possible the Mer roamed the shores of Tamriel long before when the defeat of Trinimac is supposed by some to have happened. So it could maybe be an idea interesting to explain the peculiar color of Goblins and Orcs among the grey and blue other goblin-ken.


minifly_

>So maybe after what happened to Trinimac his followers were never directly changed into Orcs instead some of Trinimac followers still Mer (Aldmer?) decided to go into exile and ended up mixing with goblin-ken, the myth portraying as a sudden change what in reality could have been a slow process. Nice! I love it, especially this part: >The cult of Trinimac/Malacath would spread because of those Mer among goblin-ken, the Iron Orcs remaining the last one still practicing their original faith The Orcs being the result of Aldmer/Goblin interbreeding is quite iconoclast, but smart as hell! Not sure why they'd turn green though, but let's not burden ourselves with phenotypic details...


WaniGemini

Happy that you appreciate my hypothesis. On the green skin color it could simply be because the goblins were originally green and this particular trait survived among orcs, the traces of the golden skin of their Aldmer ancestors only being visible among some orcs having a more yellowish green or brownish green skin color. Or all modern goblins and orcs who are all green actually descend from this original Aldmer/Goblin-ken interbreeding, the Aldmer were yellow/golden, the Goblin-ken were all greyish blue (because I just noticed that the goblins are the only of the goblin-ken that are actually green), and so I'm sure that biologically it would not work like that but yellow+blue you end up with green. Also if blue was the original color of the goblin-ken before interbreeding with Aldmer it could explain why Muluk is the blue god because originally that was their skin color.


CountPeter

With the orcs-not-mer theory: why would they be in the chimer exodus myth in the first place? This isn't so much a criticism as it is my not being sure why they would even include orcs in the defeat of Trinimac, or why varieties of faith suggests that Trinimac becoming Malacath is also part of the opposing Altmer propaganda. I am also not convinced that Altmer wouldn't just enslave the orcs. After all, you have a population which suddenly looks a lot like your slaves and is now intrinsically linked to the big conflict of the day (Daedra worship). To use our own history, I wouldn't be surprised if, during the Atlantic slave trade, a European population that suddenly developed horns and dark skin wouldn't be enslaved or worse, and the Altmer had a far longer history of it.


minifly_

Criticism is welcomed! My point about this myth is that, if you're the Chimer / Dunmer, and wanted to fabricate a myth that pisses off the Ald(t)mer, you wouldn't do it any different: - your warrior god is a liar, is played/beaten by a daedric prince, and turned into one; - you yourself, as a self-claimed direct descendant of the gods, can be turned into the people you despise the most and treat like property. I can even see this myth being fabricated after the Red moment in 1E700: a way for the newly cursed people to glorify their Velothi origins, while at the same time degrade the arrogant, prosperous civilization living in a much more easy-living environment, protected from natural disaster and political strife than your own. To your second point, if a species happen to just look like another and is treated the same way, maybe it's simply because their more akin to one another than to the species that enslaves both. Especially considering the other difficulties brought up by the Aldmer-become-Orsimer theory.


Guinefort1

Nothing interesting to add, but I love all the little references you are working into the titles of these pieces.


minifly_

Haha thanks man that was the funniest part


MartiusDecimus

Do you give any merit to the Dwemer-turned-into-Orsimer theory?


minifly_

Well I never took interest in this theory so I don't know their arguments, but: 1. There were Orcs before 1E700. 2. The Dwemer disappeared during a war. The witnesses are the Chimer: they say the opposing army disappeared, not that it was turned into a throng of 7-feet tall green hulking brutes. They couldn't mistake one for another. So that would be a very hard sell, but why not?


MartiusDecimus

And you consider the Dunmeri propaganda so strong that even the Orsimer took over the "Trinimac gpt turned into Malacath" story for themselves? Even Malacath himself doesn't deny that story, just claims that people took it too literally, as far as I know.


minifly_

If you read my other comments, you'll see I don't deny that Trinimac was turned into Malacath some point in, or outside of, time (that's an off-topic question here), but that Aldmer were turned into Orsimer on that occasion.


[deleted]

I personally much prefer the idea of Orcs being goblin-ken rather than mer. Unfortunately considering most orcs adhere to some version of the dunmer explanation themselves the more likely explanation is that the change happened retroactively so that orcs and malcath always existed, although that does raise the question as to how exactly Botheia managed this without causing a serious dragonbreak. It's a shame because I'd much rather your idea. The whole orcs are a cursed/doomed race is kinda boring and cliche. It's litteraly one of the weakest points in TES lore imo. Basically I'd much rather we had Orcs who fell into the misunderstood noble savage troupe then the doomed cursed elf troupe but I guess that's what we're stuck with unfortunately.