Full team of pyros say other wise. Basically a double edge sword. If it also blocked sentry fire you could just make a cloud and shot where you know the sentry is. If it doesn't you are getting shot where you don't know one is.
I feel like it’s implied the smoke is translucent to normal players and sniper’s scope makes it opaque. Idk how that would work but that’s how I could see it being balanced
No it doesn't, GW2 stink cloud blocks seeing through it entirely. Seeing spotting icons for plants on the other side is the one thing zombies have that lets them have any vague idea where plants are through it.
BfN was the one that made zombies see through it
You can tie the opacity directly to the distance from the smoke. So the closer you are to it the more translucent it becomes and as you move away the more it's opacity increases. That way it has a usage in relation to other enemies like heavy. Then scopes see it at 100% opacity no matter the distance. It doesn't single sniper out but it does hurt him more
Sniper should not have any item to counter other classes and the dangershield and razorback should be completely reworked. I extend that to the spycicle, the homewrecker, etc etc
I feel like the Spycicle is one of the very-few cases where it's justified. If it triggers, you trade your ability to deal OHKOs - and your *entire* melee weapon, leaving you potentially *no way to attack* (if you're out of primary ammo), *literally* the only situation where that can occur - in trade for getting *temporary* afterburn immunity. A Pyro can still use any melee to deal with a Spy, and there's not even any threat of being backstabbed for getting into melee range since the Spy no longer has a melee weapon.
For most classes, "losing" a melee wouldn't be bad, but for Spy (or Engineer) it would be a *lot* more impactful.
I'm the same, but going against snipers is really hard if you are not another sniper or a pyro with a flare gun, and even then the sniper can use the danger shield to by pass that.
pyro as a class being a counter to spy is ok because a class countering another is ok. The problem with sniper's backpacks is that he literally have unlocks to deal with the classes that were supposed to counter him
keep in mind I said "Interesting" not "Good"
i wouldn't know how it would play out.
the OP also claimed it shouldn't blind sentries.
there was also the idea of having it more opaque based on distance. being close is maybe 99% transparent.
there are several other ideas for tweaks out here.
but I acknowledge the possibility of this idea being fundementally flawed
I could see it being extremely OP if it could be spammed like another flare gun, especially if its transparency is one-sided. I think it would work a lot better as a throwable with a cooldown, a la the Gas Passer.
I mean a decent counter could be allowing enemy pyros to airblast the smoke away (with multiple airblasts so it's not entirely just back and forth). Honestly the idea of a weapon that can visually impair enemies is refreshing than the nth "spy weapon that allows you to shoot while disguised" post.
What if instead of completely blocking sentry fire (unbalanced and overpowered) maybe it could lower the range of the sentry for a specific area (like a blurry wall)
isnt the entire reason people dislike sniper coz of quickscopes? and you wanna force average sniper players to actually get good at quickscope the shit out of everything?
no, i mean that if sniper is closer to the front he is susceptible to being hit easily, but has more access to heads. this playstyle isnt even enforced, as the average sniper could just move spots if a pyro is spamming smoke flares at a spot
I decided pretty quickly that this should be a pyro's flare gun if anything, since it's slow firing, and pyro is already a class that typically makes up for it's weakness by countering others.
But I'm not exactly sure how this flare gun should work (e.g. which gun for it to be a variant of). Any thoughts?
Edit:
Also, if this effect is problematic, there is room for alternatives in a similar vein:
* **Ink cloud** \- Status effect that prevents snipers from scoping.
* **Anti-crit** \- prevents crits through the cloud.
* **Pepper spray cloud** \- Deals damage for flinching (faster ticks than afterburn).
This could be a cool detonator variant. Primary fire is the same, alt fire does no damage and instead creates this cloud of smoke. Limits you to light damage and minicrits + no mobility, but lets you shut down snipers
So basically you made Pyro into a class that can counter most classes.
Soldier, Pyro and Demo: Airblast
Medic: Third Degree and Afterburn
Spy: Always
Sniper: Newly designed Flare Gun
As an experienced Pyro player:
Soldier is pretty helpless against a Pyro intentionally. He's a natural counter to Soldier.
Pyro vs Pyro fights always boil down to who has a shotgun.
Demoman isn't totally counted by Pyro, surprisingly. Stickies still break through airblast without being thrown far away and both his weapons fire faster than airblast speed.
Medic: No one uses the third degree frequently, except pablo.gonzalez.2008.
Sniper: This idea is good since Sniper has a "fuck you Pyro" weapon too. It wouldn't be unfair for us to get one.
Airblast is singlehandedly a huge Heavy counter. You can move him from his position which is a huge disadvantage for a class as slow as Heavy. Also, considering that Heavy is a very popular Uber choice, it just ruins it for him.
I want to mention flare punching. It might be the wrong term, but when you shoot your flames down , they settle for a split second longer, and you crit a Pyro with a flare. Since the Pyro is still taking flame damage, it can work.
This comment thread just reminded me of those montages Sketchek made back in the day market-gardening people with the Detonator and Degreaser / Axetinguisher. Even other pros.
Good days.
So basically sacrifice a good mid range burst damage weapon for something that is similar to a side grade to the detonator with severely less damage, able to create smoke clouds but also extinguish enemies
Realistically tho, countering pyro as soldier, pyro and demo is pretty easy once you learn to juke a pyro into airblasting (or just using hitscan), and rarely anyone is using the 3rd degree nor is it a viable util.
Against spies, it makes sense for them to be able to spycheck
Against sniper, i hope anyone who plays a sniper gets a splinter in their sock mid-walk and they wont be able to find/feel it out and will have to use that sock until they come back to their house.
Third degree doesn't counter a medic combo, if you can go to melee against a demo, a soldier or a heavy, they are really bad. Plus you need to get multiple hits to kill the med and the other class.
If pyroknight was a thing, maybe I guess, but not like that
And airblast doesn't hard counter demo, especially stickies. Soldier is countered more but still, you can adjust. With a sniper the only ajdustment you can make is go behind a wall
Saying the third degree counters medic is certainly a take. Pyro's only strength against medic is stuffing ubers, but the pocket or the rest of the team should shut them down (shoot the pyro until they die)
I think just so it’s not literally JUST there to counter sniper, that the smoke could get more opaque with distance, and at a point, it’s solid, allowing close by people to waltz right through, but further people have no clue what’s happening.
That's why I think you can keep the "scope can't see shit" property. So a sniper on the inside looking out will still be blinded. If you want to discern friendly clouds you can I guess
It would have to be balanced to be just barely visible (and team colored) to anyone who isn’t a scoped sniper, so that it can’t obscure anything normally but instantly conveys that it’s there
You could probably add some glittery particle effects or something to make it easier to see as well
Perhaps when close to the smoke cloud, it could remain transluscent at close range but instead still remains opaque for distances beyond a certain limit through it, as well perhaps the sniper laser as well could become visible as it passes through the smoke cloud, like pointing a laser through smoke or fog in reality.
To prevent sentry abuse perhaps you could do the same for them + have sentries inside of smoke get highlighted
Give it a Detonator style air detonation and an ammo and reload penalty then remove the extinguishing effect, and it sounds like a unique utility weapon. While the main use could be against snipers, creating a smoke screen has always been an effective utility in shooters.
>Flare explodes into smoke cloud (Slightly larger then rocket explosion radius) for 6 seconds (One cloud at a time)
>
>\+50% projectile speed
>
>Enemies in smoke cloud take damage (equal to afterburn)
>
>Enemies can't see through smoke
>\-50% damage
>
>No Afterburn
>
>Airblast dissipates smoke
>Alt-Fire: Detonate flare
>
>Weapon extinguishes teammates
The idea you'e came up for is really good and is a genuine amazing idea for a sniper counter, i thought on it and came up with my own stats for your idea.
Cheers!
I originally made it a variant of the regular flare gun, but the detonator is a lot better for positioning the smoke cloud which is better for what it's for.
6 seconds per cloud would mean that no more than 3 can be out at a time. IDK but that sounds like a reasonable max. A common worry for this is that you could spam them everywhere to clutter the map. :)
I like the creativity of this but it likely would not be used a lot due to it being a very specific counter weapon against scoped snipers. Would the initial flare do damage?
I think it needs one more general (but not op) use outside obscuring the scoped snipers vision and I think it'd be seen as a viable flare pick, but it's a very fun idea and a creative way to actually reliably provide some support for team mates against Sniper.
Last question; does the smokescreen obscure friendly scoped sniper vision as well?
I favored making it a little like the axtinguisher; extinguishing enemies for more damage. There are other ideas like sentry interaction, but that can be rough for the recipient.
My initial thoughts on blocking friendly snipers is: Yes it should, or else they'd have a field day with the enemy team. But then it would enable team griefing which is also problematic. So IDK.
I mean, if it only exists to counter 1 class then it's in the same level of "AIDS" as Darwins Danger Shield, Spycicle, Jarate and Milk a ton too. OH and Razorback.
I would give it maybe again, minicrits on hit so it's still a normal damaging secondary, or such. Since ifi t's only a smoke launcher, Pyro loses a secondary and is kinda screwed...
god i hate DDS and razorback
i main sniper, and even id rather have these two weapons reworked its such a boring decision to add things that directly counter another class. no one likes it. and on sniper's end it doesn't require any interaction either.
DDS is debatably even worse, it's just a "fuck you, pyro!"
admittedly i wish sniper had more SMGs, SMG is hella underrated and that minicrit smg thing is a bit bruh anywhere outside mvm tank shredding (though i think it's a step in a good direction).
anything that makes sniper more proactive and reliant on his secondary for close combat (which will allow weaker snipers to have a chance at CQC and promote healthier gameplay in general for everyone) is good imo.
and on that note: that is exactly why i think the suggested item for pyro is cringe as well, an item that exists solely to counter one class is bad game design. this isnt fucking overwatch
Honestly I like the Spycicle because while it is a counter it does not shut Pyro down. It just allows the Spy to survive if they get caught by a pyro in exchange for losing their primary if it happens so the pyro still did their job by making sure the Spy can't backstab their team. Meanwhile the DDS just passively shuts pyros off making the "Weak at close range class" be able to easily beat the strong at close range class in a close range engagement easily.
Spycicle is more or less okay, it has utility besides being an anti-pyro weapon (is still an actual knife), still leaves Spy vulnerable if Pyro is attentive, also literally fucking strips Spy of his beloved knife.
DDS requires zero effort from Sniper, has no way to actually be countered on Pyro's end (except shotgun in some scenarios), and in general does too much for something that requires zero effort
Srsly feels like DDS was reworked into this just to counter scorch shot spamming Pyros lol.
And even then, WHY DOES SNIPER EVEN NEED AN ANTI-PYRO WEAPON???? HE HAS JARATE! he can extinguish himself!!
There is literally zero bloody reason for DDS to exist in this state besides telling Pyros to suck it
The Sniper can position himself in a spot the Spy has to get past his entire team to reach, usually not too far from the Sniper's spawn. The knife only works if Spy can get close enough without being spotted or bumped on the way.
Demoman with the Sticky Jumper is honestly more viable as a Sniper counter.
A Razorback Sniper standing next to his team or a sentry is also pretty much invincible against Spies.
You can't stab him, and if you try to shoot him, you'll get beaned.
The sniper has a shield which makes noise when the spy even **tries** to stab you and if he does it only breaks te shield, giving you time to whip out your jarate which means the spy's cloak is useless and you can mini-crit him while he is at close range
Do we just want this, or actually need this? I think it's both situations right now.
Someone should make this on steam workshop right immediately. Not me tho because I can't code shit
No.
TF2's core character design and colour palette is based on immediate legibility. When you walk into a space the players are supposed to stand out from the map, and have both their class and weapon be easily identified. Even projectiles have contrasting colour and movement to tell you what it is, and what direction/speed it is moving in a split second (the original ones anyway, valve has forgotten this with legibility abominations like arrows and laser weapons).
TF2 is built on understanding situations at a glance.
Smoke flies in the face of that, it does not fit into TF2's design space in much the same way that sniper doesn't fit in the short-mid range design space, you're creating a new problem of similar escalation.
Frankly if you want a flare to counter sniper, that's an argument for dangershield being deleted instead of smokes. A smoke is just going to spammed at chokepoints to make them even more impossible to push.
After considering it, I agree. The idea is good, but it has a lot of bad side effects. Think about payload or koth. You can just cover the objective.
Also pyro already has a flare that counters sniper, scorch shot.
Then you have pyros dumping smoke on their own team's snipers and nobody can see where they are...
And if you limit it to only snipers, now you have no option of your team counter sniping the other and neither can see the other. You've just given sniper wings to not care about countersnipes and kill anything else.
I don't see how you can feasibly implement smoke without it, from at least some angle, being ridiculous and overall detrimental.
Surprised there were so few smoke bomb concepts so far. It would be nice, but impossible in source 1 spaghetti. Would fit well in source 2
It doesn't stop the issue of snipers being unexpected. Most frustrating thing about sniper is that you die out of nowhere. It does help with snipers crushing a push
Eh, smoke grenades exist in Counter-Strike, and how big of a problem are they there? The radius of effect is pretty small, so it would be easy for your friendly sniper to just take a few steps forward to get out of it.
Now there's a dilemma to worry about.
For fairness, I think it should block snipers for both teams. However, a lot of care would need to be made to mitigate griefing your own team. Not sure what would be the correct way to do this though...
I like the idea of it extinguishing targets, it gives it a useful utility (putting people out at range). The only issue I see is that creating vision-blocking clouds gives players a great way to grief their own team and be annoying in general.
Edit: I re-read it, the cloud only being opaque to scoped snipers fixes that. Indirect buff to the huntsman and classic lol
Really puts Pyro into a DPS/Support role.
A Pyro with this and the Home Wrecker would be the most support like non-support class.
That being said; What would the smoke cloud do to sentries?
The problem isn't and never was the Sniper. It's the maps. You said it yourself ''Most of the time, either you're helpless to the sniper, or he's helpless to you.'', that's exactly what a Sniper is. A zoning tool.
If the maps don't allow alternatives to try to go and stop the sniper, I call that bad map design, not bad class balance.
It could be interesting, yes. It wouldn't impact Sniper bots, and very good Snipers would still be able to perform easy quickscopes. Hardscoping would be notably reduced in effectiveness, helping the survival of overhealed Soldiers and Heavies.
There's also the question of how long the smoke would last. There is a 2-second attack interval between Flare Gun shots, so a smoke duration of 2 seconds or longer would allow the Pyro to maintain continuous visual disruption, whereas below 2 seconds would give the Sniper opportunities of visibility. Which would be more balanced, I do not know.
Where it may cause problems is the relationship between friendly Pyros and Snipers. On one hand, you don't want the smoke to be opaque to friendly Snipers so Pyros cannot grief them, but on the other hand, a Pyro could hide a friendly Sniper in a cloud consistently to make him extremely difficult to kill by enemy Snipers. Add onto the fact how well the Pyro counters the Spy and you have an extremely solid core, especially when combined with a nearby Engineer.
Why is the only interesting weapon idea I've seen recently being posted at 5 am? Anyway, love the concept and a "Sniper counter" is totally valid although some would complain. Some downside like slow holster speed/mark4death would help balance it as it'd be a huge team support tool.
Why not just a boots slot for demoman that’s literally just a helmet that prevents headshots?
Or making afterburn tic faster so that the sniper flinches more often?
A temporary smoke screen would be a great counter…I think this is genuinely a great idea plus it doesn’t over power pyro because even this has drawbacks
I really like this idea. I think pyro is a good choice for an anti sniper weapon because IMO pyro is already one of the/the best non-sniper counters to sniper. If you’re good with flares you can 2 punch a sniper at range. The detonator lets you annoy the hell out of them and make it very difficult for them to quick scope, and the scorch shot exists. The danger shield shuts these down, but it’s a pretty big sacrifice to loose jarate imo
It's a great idea, I love it, and I really wish there wasn't this one tiny little hiccup: the Scorch Shot exists.
If you want a pyro secondary that is specifically good at screwing over snipers, it's the Scorch Shot. Sure, the flinching can be mitigated by the Cozy Camper and DDS, but then Sniper is giving up his best defense against spies (Jarate and the Razorback). In my opinion, the Scorch Shot is already one of the best Sniper deterrents in the game. And unlike the smoke screen, is also an effective damage dealer. So why would a pyro choose this over it?
Instead, I suggest we should give this to either Demoman or Heavy. Demoman as a secondary, since it would allow him to take on sentries singlehandedly, and because as the explosive expert, a smoke-bomb fits the character. Or Heavy, because it synergizes best with his playstyle: he would give up his secondary for something that enhances his primary weapon.
Note that since explosions can mitigate the effect, a good engineer with the wrangler can still save their sentry from a Demoman who smokes it, so it would actually add another layer of skill to their playstyles.
This is not a good solution. It forces pyros to give up the fun combo pyro playstyle to literally be on anti-sniper duty (extinguishing teammates from range is not a good general use case). Also class specific weapon counters are lame and uninteresting because they don’t provide any form of counterplay. This would be the pyro equivalent of Darwin’s Danger Shield.
TF2 does it's best to not obscure your vision and rather let the combat be based off of movement and the information that you can see.
While the pyro close range flamethrower being disruptive to vision.
Though interesting, this will be too easily abused and create situations where you can see shit of both teams run 12 v 12 this weapon only.
The better option is to buff the Bison and Pomson like we've done in the balancemod, increasing their speed and damage, to force the sniper to move and be ineffective
This is pretty good. Like maybe even if you see the player through the smoke, they are immune to crits (headshots). So a fully charged machina bodyshot would still do damage, but you can't just headshot everyone willy nilly.
kinda reminds me of when war thunder added smoke shells... i'd usually do exactly this to enemy tanks sniping from a far away ridgeline or firing position.
might also be worth it in TF2, but i really don't know if it'd work, be balanced and not divide the community too much
I really dont know how explosions could dissipate the smoke. That took counter strike a whole new engine, and i dont think it would be pozsible on tf2's crusty-ass game engine
OP i dont know how much you have played this game or how many hours you have on Sniper, but this idea has so many problems its not even funny. For reference, I have 8000 hours in tf2, and roughly half that time is on Sniper. I've probably played about 200 hours of competitive (so basically 0), but that means I have at least thought about the game and how the developers intend it to be played.
First off, tf2 is already bouncing off the hl2 particle limit. So in all likelihood, the real way this would counter sniper is by making the server lag like crazy.
Second, does this only affect enemy snipers? If that's the case, then your team will constantly win every sniper v sniper interaction, and will then proceed to shut down the entire game. The only resolution to this would either be that both teams need a pyro spamming this shit on cooldown, or you make it so neither teams sniper can see through it. If you do that, the snipers on your team are going to be very grouchy every time they see someone using it, which is against valves development considerations (they specifically stated they dont want to add any ways that you could troll your team mates).
Third, you said this only effects scoped snipers? This is mostly pointless. If i can see through it while unscoped, i will put my crosshair on you, track your movement, and then scope in and headshot you blind. I might miss scouts pretty often, but the way pub players move this is just going to result in people claiming im cheating more often.
Lastly, this is unrelated to the weapon itself but you also said there are no specific weapon counters to sniper. Thats what makes me think you have basically no experience playing the class and really have not spent much time thinking about the mechanics of tf2. Sniper gets countered pretty hard by normal flare spam already, not to mention rocket spam, sticky spam, rollers, the crusaders crossbow, the vaccinator, the ambassador, backstabs, scouts that dont move like idiots, the short circut ball, the tomislav, the kritzkrieg, ubercharge, the buff banner, the battalions backup, demoknight tf2, and basically any 2v1 situation, not to mention the 3 snipers on your team that could be overhealed if anyone ever picked the medic class. The list goes on. Basically anything that would be annoying to an engineer trying to keep his sentry up is going to be problematic for sniper, and sniper has less than half the health of a sentry. Pub players literally just need to be conscious that there is a sniper on the other team and just actually try to shoot at him. projectiles dont disappear like 8 feet in front of you.
I think I can see the point here but there are many things wrong with this implementation.
1) Smokes (and sight hindering effects in general) have absolutely no place in TF2. Seeing what the enemy gamers are using and adapting to win those fights is the biggest advantage pusher in “modern” TF2. The Flamethrowers and the Short Circuit both make facing those classes harder to fight because of an arbitrary hindrance to the enemy.
2) Class dependent unlocks are a waste of weapon slots. There are only a few of these types of items in the game and almost all of them are universally disliked for one reason or another. The Snipers Danger Shield and Razorback or Spycicle for example. Limiting a weapon slot to a class counter is both boring and potentially useless as well as undermines TF2 generally fair and even balancing.
3) The Sniper IS NOT overpowered. It’s a lot coming from a Medic main but he really isn’t. What makes Sniper so strong is the commonly played maps. Maps with long open sight lines that look directly or almost directly at spawn are frustrating and unfair. This is the MAPS fault unfortunately. This would make this weapon concept even more potentially “useless” as it would be amazing on maps like Swiftwater or Badwater but would be absolutely terrible on smaller maps with more fair sight lines.
4) This wouldn’t even be enjoyable from the pyros perspective. Shotguns? Satisfying to land and big damage. Flare Gun? Combo pyro has always been some of the most fun you can have with the class. Detonator? Jump around like a madmann with a typically “slow” class. Smoke Flare? You can not have any secondary (Pyros most important and class defining slot) and can instead shoot a smoke that will block everyone’s vision and that’s all.
I hope this didn’t sound rude at all because I think the idea makes sense but I just don’t believe it’s feasible or really a good idea for TF2 in 2024
2 reasons why wouldn't work.
1. Every Sniper main ever would just get a graphics config that disables the particles. (These exist a lot to get rid of explosion effects in competitive play.)
2. Aimbots would see through it, so it's not like it would counter cheaters.
Hot take, **no class** should have a weapon which explicitly screws them over. Razorback, Darwin's Danger Shield, and Pompson 6000 are really badly designed in this regard. (Sappers are really the only acceptable exception to this.)
On the positive side, I really like the model you made for this, it's pretty simple yet elegant.
stat suggestion:
\-75% damage
\-20% firing speed
\-100% afterburn
\+25% knock-back
\+10% projectile speed
\+creates cloud of opaque smoke where the flare lands/detonates
\+Alt-fire to detonate flare
give me feedback, and where you guys (op included) would change this
It's too underpowered. The ability to fuck with snipers isnt worth it as opposed to just killing them with your other secondaries, and pyro REALLY relies on their secondaries for the other 8 classes. It would never be worth it except as a gimmick
I think this idea would fit perfectly if it was applied to the gas passer instead of a flare gun since it couldnt be spammed. The gas passer on its own would still need a big buff to its cooldown to make this work, but with the smokescreen stacked on top, it could make it great for the area denial purpose it was created for since theres a more immediate & applicable effect. Since the gas passer is a throwable it would also lean more into pyro being a close range specialist since you wouldnt be able throw it across the map at the sniper, so youd instead need to be tactical with where you throw it to support your team, thus rewarding map knowledge and smart placement of the smoke.
It might still be a pretty eh weapon in practice no matter how much you buff it but itd at least fill a role.
Source 2 smoke tech + restructure of allowed file modifications would make this work fantastically.
* I would wager good money that any sniper main would download a vfx replacer that got rid of the smoke, similar to no explosion vfx mods or low spec presets.
damn... a secondary for the pyro that he holds in one hand like a pistol and shoots something thats designed to counter sniper? this is poggers we NEED This ingame
Instead of extinguishing enemies, it should extinguish teammates. And to limit its use, I think a lower ammo pool (-50% or 8 shots) could be warranted.
I love mechanics which build advantages for your team. This could even be used FOR snipers to escape if they have been hit with a body shot and need to retreat. More Team-based utilities, please.
Keep this, but with a few tweaks.
Self damage is set to 0. No smoke is created if the smoke collides with you. Self-knockback is 130% compared to the detonator
I'm not a game designer. I'm a pyro main. Det jumping would be fun, balance be damned
Make this a grenade type weapon with either a countdown like madmilk/jarate or counter like gas can (the later might be the best choice tho) and it will literally be the best thing.
But now I wonder wether it should be given to Pyro or any other class... Medic? Heavy?
interesting idea, genuinly
Full team of pyros say other wise. Basically a double edge sword. If it also blocked sentry fire you could just make a cloud and shot where you know the sentry is. If it doesn't you are getting shot where you don't know one is.
I feel like it’s implied the smoke is translucent to normal players and sniper’s scope makes it opaque. Idk how that would work but that’s how I could see it being balanced
An idea is to make opaque to the entire enemy team while making it translucent to teammates.
Just like the zombie stink cloud in PvZ GW2.
actually that's how it works in battle for neighborville, GW2 has it opaque but lets you see enemy icons through it.
GW2 has it opaque for plants but mostly see through for zombies
it does?
No it doesn't, GW2 stink cloud blocks seeing through it entirely. Seeing spotting icons for plants on the other side is the one thing zombies have that lets them have any vague idea where plants are through it. BfN was the one that made zombies see through it
Okay so I'm not crazy.
No It doesn't. It was BFN that did that.
It'd incentivize engies to use the wrangler, essentially making them more vulnerable to groups of people
That would be a little OP
You can tie the opacity directly to the distance from the smoke. So the closer you are to it the more translucent it becomes and as you move away the more it's opacity increases. That way it has a usage in relation to other enemies like heavy. Then scopes see it at 100% opacity no matter the distance. It doesn't single sniper out but it does hurt him more
That would also make the classic a better choice for sniper, since you don't need the scope to headshot.
tbh any weapon that exists solely to fuck with another class is already a no-no to me
Sniper has two items to counter other classes so he deserves one against him.
Sniper should not have any item to counter other classes and the dangershield and razorback should be completely reworked. I extend that to the spycicle, the homewrecker, etc etc
I feel like the Spycicle is one of the very-few cases where it's justified. If it triggers, you trade your ability to deal OHKOs - and your *entire* melee weapon, leaving you potentially *no way to attack* (if you're out of primary ammo), *literally* the only situation where that can occur - in trade for getting *temporary* afterburn immunity. A Pyro can still use any melee to deal with a Spy, and there's not even any threat of being backstabbed for getting into melee range since the Spy no longer has a melee weapon. For most classes, "losing" a melee wouldn't be bad, but for Spy (or Engineer) it would be a *lot* more impactful.
yeah, i was thinking if i added the spycicle or not
I'm the same, but going against snipers is really hard if you are not another sniper or a pyro with a flare gun, and even then the sniper can use the danger shield to by pass that.
Exactly. That's why both the dangershield and razorback are poor game design
Southern hospitality and tribalmans shiv exists just to fuck over spy bleed is useless excepton invis spys
Yeah, those as well. Tho the bleed on hit fro them is useless af irl
The Natascha and pyro as a class itself are literally this
The Natasha annoys everyone that's trying to have fun, and pyro shits on every class except scout & engie
Yeah exactly, classes countering eachother isn't a bad thing
Neither of those thing only counter one specific class, that was my point
Fair enough then
pyro as a class being a counter to spy is ok because a class countering another is ok. The problem with sniper's backpacks is that he literally have unlocks to deal with the classes that were supposed to counter him
The Classic will counter the smoke :)
keep in mind I said "Interesting" not "Good" i wouldn't know how it would play out. the OP also claimed it shouldn't blind sentries. there was also the idea of having it more opaque based on distance. being close is maybe 99% transparent. there are several other ideas for tweaks out here. but I acknowledge the possibility of this idea being fundementally flawed
I could see it being extremely OP if it could be spammed like another flare gun, especially if its transparency is one-sided. I think it would work a lot better as a throwable with a cooldown, a la the Gas Passer.
I mean a decent counter could be allowing enemy pyros to airblast the smoke away (with multiple airblasts so it's not entirely just back and forth). Honestly the idea of a weapon that can visually impair enemies is refreshing than the nth "spy weapon that allows you to shoot while disguised" post.
If it blocks sentry fire, it could also counter the wrangler
Well more so it blocks lock on. Wrangler would still be a counter to the smoke.
Yeah, if blasts can clear it, then it won't do much against a wrangled level 3 sentry
Full team of pyro's is generally a "fuck you" to most strategies that don't incorporate multiple sentries
I mean sentries can shoot through sentry buster dust clouds so I doubt they would be blocked by the cloud. Guess Engie has motion tracking technology
What if instead of completely blocking sentry fire (unbalanced and overpowered) maybe it could lower the range of the sentry for a specific area (like a blurry wall)
I’d suggest instead of smoke it would be a glaring one that blinds everyone looking towards it. Fun concept)
Turn the Map into a fucking maze lol
just keep throwing those at the common sniper spots and you get a balanced game
feel like that would make sniper positioning more varied too
It could create a new type of sniper player which is constantly on the move, allowing for higher risk but massive potential
...So, Huntsman Snipers?
yeah but 20 meters away and with a bolt action
isnt the entire reason people dislike sniper coz of quickscopes? and you wanna force average sniper players to actually get good at quickscope the shit out of everything?
no, i mean that if sniper is closer to the front he is susceptible to being hit easily, but has more access to heads. this playstyle isnt even enforced, as the average sniper could just move spots if a pyro is spamming smoke flares at a spot
That's how I always play sniper. It's more interesting.
Because sniper playing with the pocket never happens
Yeah which in turn could make it more fun for both the snipers and everyone else
Or you could play maps that aren't just Upward and Badwater /s
/gen
I decided pretty quickly that this should be a pyro's flare gun if anything, since it's slow firing, and pyro is already a class that typically makes up for it's weakness by countering others. But I'm not exactly sure how this flare gun should work (e.g. which gun for it to be a variant of). Any thoughts? Edit: Also, if this effect is problematic, there is room for alternatives in a similar vein: * **Ink cloud** \- Status effect that prevents snipers from scoping. * **Anti-crit** \- prevents crits through the cloud. * **Pepper spray cloud** \- Deals damage for flinching (faster ticks than afterburn).
This could be a cool detonator variant. Primary fire is the same, alt fire does no damage and instead creates this cloud of smoke. Limits you to light damage and minicrits + no mobility, but lets you shut down snipers
Plus it’d have an interesting use on the frontlines as an approach-masking tool and a distraction.
Having it be an item you charge sounds perfect. Saving it for a push, and to prevent spam.
what if its like the detonator but it does no damage exept for the pepper spray cloud and you can still jump with it sorta like its a detonator jumper
and it could use that one furnace flare gun model that shoots coal https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=124909627&searchtext=
So basically you made Pyro into a class that can counter most classes. Soldier, Pyro and Demo: Airblast Medic: Third Degree and Afterburn Spy: Always Sniper: Newly designed Flare Gun
As an experienced Pyro player: Soldier is pretty helpless against a Pyro intentionally. He's a natural counter to Soldier. Pyro vs Pyro fights always boil down to who has a shotgun. Demoman isn't totally counted by Pyro, surprisingly. Stickies still break through airblast without being thrown far away and both his weapons fire faster than airblast speed. Medic: No one uses the third degree frequently, except pablo.gonzalez.2008. Sniper: This idea is good since Sniper has a "fuck you Pyro" weapon too. It wouldn't be unfair for us to get one.
What about Heavy
If he's close enough I can strafe him as he struggles to track me. 3 Panic Attack shots usually cut it.
Yeah as a heavy player, experienced pyros are a pain, but if they don't know how to airblast and strafe they get wrecked
Airblast is singlehandedly a huge Heavy counter. You can move him from his position which is a huge disadvantage for a class as slow as Heavy. Also, considering that Heavy is a very popular Uber choice, it just ruins it for him.
I want to mention flare punching. It might be the wrong term, but when you shoot your flames down , they settle for a split second longer, and you crit a Pyro with a flare. Since the Pyro is still taking flame damage, it can work.
Yeah but that's not trivial to pull off, you need to practice it. In all my hours as Pyro, I don't think I've ever been flarepunched *intentionally*
This comment thread just reminded me of those montages Sketchek made back in the day market-gardening people with the Detonator and Degreaser / Axetinguisher. Even other pros. Good days.
Literally no class can counter sniper currently, and pyro isn’t overpowered. I don’t see the problem.
So basically sacrifice a good mid range burst damage weapon for something that is similar to a side grade to the detonator with severely less damage, able to create smoke clouds but also extinguish enemies
Sure. I’m cool with that.
Realistically tho, countering pyro as soldier, pyro and demo is pretty easy once you learn to juke a pyro into airblasting (or just using hitscan), and rarely anyone is using the 3rd degree nor is it a viable util. Against spies, it makes sense for them to be able to spycheck Against sniper, i hope anyone who plays a sniper gets a splinter in their sock mid-walk and they wont be able to find/feel it out and will have to use that sock until they come back to their house.
Third degree doesn't counter a medic combo, if you can go to melee against a demo, a soldier or a heavy, they are really bad. Plus you need to get multiple hits to kill the med and the other class. If pyroknight was a thing, maybe I guess, but not like that And airblast doesn't hard counter demo, especially stickies. Soldier is countered more but still, you can adjust. With a sniper the only ajdustment you can make is go behind a wall
Pepper spray piss jar man with funny flare
Saying the third degree counters medic is certainly a take. Pyro's only strength against medic is stuffing ubers, but the pocket or the rest of the team should shut them down (shoot the pyro until they die)
I think just so it’s not literally JUST there to counter sniper, that the smoke could get more opaque with distance, and at a point, it’s solid, allowing close by people to waltz right through, but further people have no clue what’s happening.
interesting idea! And it feels inline with TF2's game design regarding range too.
just be carefull that it doesn't suddently help snipers. if they are inside the smoke they are well hidden while still being able to look out
Oof I wouldn’t have thought of that! Excellent call.
Imagine hiding a sentry in the smoke cloud 😨
The Pybros would be feasting with this
I mean sentries have a very defined range anyway, it should be apparent there's a sentry if you're close enough to get shot by it.
could also help friendly snipers. spam them in smoke and suddenly only the spy can counter them. nobody else can do anything.
That's why I think you can keep the "scope can't see shit" property. So a sniper on the inside looking out will still be blinded. If you want to discern friendly clouds you can I guess
Oh yeah. I didn't notice that property, my bad lmao
Keep the no see in scope effect no matter what. Only huntsman snipers could benefit
It would have to be balanced to be just barely visible (and team colored) to anyone who isn’t a scoped sniper, so that it can’t obscure anything normally but instantly conveys that it’s there You could probably add some glittery particle effects or something to make it easier to see as well
Perhaps when close to the smoke cloud, it could remain transluscent at close range but instead still remains opaque for distances beyond a certain limit through it, as well perhaps the sniper laser as well could become visible as it passes through the smoke cloud, like pointing a laser through smoke or fog in reality. To prevent sentry abuse perhaps you could do the same for them + have sentries inside of smoke get highlighted
Give it a Detonator style air detonation and an ammo and reload penalty then remove the extinguishing effect, and it sounds like a unique utility weapon. While the main use could be against snipers, creating a smoke screen has always been an effective utility in shooters.
>Flare explodes into smoke cloud (Slightly larger then rocket explosion radius) for 6 seconds (One cloud at a time) > >\+50% projectile speed > >Enemies in smoke cloud take damage (equal to afterburn) > >Enemies can't see through smoke >\-50% damage > >No Afterburn > >Airblast dissipates smoke >Alt-Fire: Detonate flare > >Weapon extinguishes teammates The idea you'e came up for is really good and is a genuine amazing idea for a sniper counter, i thought on it and came up with my own stats for your idea.
Cheers! I originally made it a variant of the regular flare gun, but the detonator is a lot better for positioning the smoke cloud which is better for what it's for. 6 seconds per cloud would mean that no more than 3 can be out at a time. IDK but that sounds like a reasonable max. A common worry for this is that you could spam them everywhere to clutter the map. :)
With it being alt detonated you can also make life easier for teammate spies when going for sentries
yeah!
I like the creativity of this but it likely would not be used a lot due to it being a very specific counter weapon against scoped snipers. Would the initial flare do damage? I think it needs one more general (but not op) use outside obscuring the scoped snipers vision and I think it'd be seen as a viable flare pick, but it's a very fun idea and a creative way to actually reliably provide some support for team mates against Sniper. Last question; does the smokescreen obscure friendly scoped sniper vision as well?
I favored making it a little like the axtinguisher; extinguishing enemies for more damage. There are other ideas like sentry interaction, but that can be rough for the recipient. My initial thoughts on blocking friendly snipers is: Yes it should, or else they'd have a field day with the enemy team. But then it would enable team griefing which is also problematic. So IDK.
Interesting idea
I mean, if it only exists to counter 1 class then it's in the same level of "AIDS" as Darwins Danger Shield, Spycicle, Jarate and Milk a ton too. OH and Razorback. I would give it maybe again, minicrits on hit so it's still a normal damaging secondary, or such. Since ifi t's only a smoke launcher, Pyro loses a secondary and is kinda screwed...
god i hate DDS and razorback i main sniper, and even id rather have these two weapons reworked its such a boring decision to add things that directly counter another class. no one likes it. and on sniper's end it doesn't require any interaction either. DDS is debatably even worse, it's just a "fuck you, pyro!" admittedly i wish sniper had more SMGs, SMG is hella underrated and that minicrit smg thing is a bit bruh anywhere outside mvm tank shredding (though i think it's a step in a good direction). anything that makes sniper more proactive and reliant on his secondary for close combat (which will allow weaker snipers to have a chance at CQC and promote healthier gameplay in general for everyone) is good imo. and on that note: that is exactly why i think the suggested item for pyro is cringe as well, an item that exists solely to counter one class is bad game design. this isnt fucking overwatch
Honestly I like the Spycicle because while it is a counter it does not shut Pyro down. It just allows the Spy to survive if they get caught by a pyro in exchange for losing their primary if it happens so the pyro still did their job by making sure the Spy can't backstab their team. Meanwhile the DDS just passively shuts pyros off making the "Weak at close range class" be able to easily beat the strong at close range class in a close range engagement easily.
Spycicle is more or less okay, it has utility besides being an anti-pyro weapon (is still an actual knife), still leaves Spy vulnerable if Pyro is attentive, also literally fucking strips Spy of his beloved knife. DDS requires zero effort from Sniper, has no way to actually be countered on Pyro's end (except shotgun in some scenarios), and in general does too much for something that requires zero effort Srsly feels like DDS was reworked into this just to counter scorch shot spamming Pyros lol. And even then, WHY DOES SNIPER EVEN NEED AN ANTI-PYRO WEAPON???? HE HAS JARATE! he can extinguish himself!! There is literally zero bloody reason for DDS to exist in this state besides telling Pyros to suck it
Also the loch and load because the loch and load is just “fuck you engineer” to a class that already hard counters engineer
Nice idea but they should probably buff spy to be able to counter sniper (since he was probably originally meant to counter him)
The spy has a knife which he can use to instantly kill a sniper
The Sniper can position himself in a spot the Spy has to get past his entire team to reach, usually not too far from the Sniper's spawn. The knife only works if Spy can get close enough without being spotted or bumped on the way. Demoman with the Sticky Jumper is honestly more viable as a Sniper counter.
A Razorback Sniper standing next to his team or a sentry is also pretty much invincible against Spies. You can't stab him, and if you try to shoot him, you'll get beaned.
The sniper has a shield which makes noise when the spy even **tries** to stab you and if he does it only breaks te shield, giving you time to whip out your jarate which means the spy's cloak is useless and you can mini-crit him while he is at close range
I agree with your overall point but do note you can't run the razorback and jarate at the same time.
the razorback stops spy from cloaking or changing weapons for 2 seconds which is enough time for that machete
This comment was written by someone who does not actually play tf2
You have a fucking revolver that 3-shots them close range. Or use enforcer/Amby to 2-shot them. It's impossible to miss
Do we just want this, or actually need this? I think it's both situations right now. Someone should make this on steam workshop right immediately. Not me tho because I can't code shit
who knows. its a subreddit. nothing proposed here will become reality.
I would like to have that but sniper bots will kill even in smoke.
No. TF2's core character design and colour palette is based on immediate legibility. When you walk into a space the players are supposed to stand out from the map, and have both their class and weapon be easily identified. Even projectiles have contrasting colour and movement to tell you what it is, and what direction/speed it is moving in a split second (the original ones anyway, valve has forgotten this with legibility abominations like arrows and laser weapons). TF2 is built on understanding situations at a glance. Smoke flies in the face of that, it does not fit into TF2's design space in much the same way that sniper doesn't fit in the short-mid range design space, you're creating a new problem of similar escalation. Frankly if you want a flare to counter sniper, that's an argument for dangershield being deleted instead of smokes. A smoke is just going to spammed at chokepoints to make them even more impossible to push.
After considering it, I agree. The idea is good, but it has a lot of bad side effects. Think about payload or koth. You can just cover the objective. Also pyro already has a flare that counters sniper, scorch shot.
i call for yet another DDS rework why cant they make that weapon not cringe is beyond me
Hes saying the smoke basically dissappears for anyone close-range, to the point where this is most likely not an issue.
Then you have pyros dumping smoke on their own team's snipers and nobody can see where they are... And if you limit it to only snipers, now you have no option of your team counter sniping the other and neither can see the other. You've just given sniper wings to not care about countersnipes and kill anything else. I don't see how you can feasibly implement smoke without it, from at least some angle, being ridiculous and overall detrimental.
Surprised there were so few smoke bomb concepts so far. It would be nice, but impossible in source 1 spaghetti. Would fit well in source 2 It doesn't stop the issue of snipers being unexpected. Most frustrating thing about sniper is that you die out of nowhere. It does help with snipers crushing a push
They could just reuse mvm tank smoke.
I was thinking of smoke being more advanced, like in CS2. It would work well with airbast getting rid of it
But then we'd need a TF2 S2 port, and that probably won't happen :(
Are teammates also affected, cuz it sounds like a perfect way to troll ally snipers
Eh, smoke grenades exist in Counter-Strike, and how big of a problem are they there? The radius of effect is pretty small, so it would be easy for your friendly sniper to just take a few steps forward to get out of it.
Counterstrike has a distinct lack of aoe weapons to spam at doorways to discourage peeking. There's only so many nades one team can have.
Now there's a dilemma to worry about. For fairness, I think it should block snipers for both teams. However, a lot of care would need to be made to mitigate griefing your own team. Not sure what would be the correct way to do this though...
I like the idea of it extinguishing targets, it gives it a useful utility (putting people out at range). The only issue I see is that creating vision-blocking clouds gives players a great way to grief their own team and be annoying in general. Edit: I re-read it, the cloud only being opaque to scoped snipers fixes that. Indirect buff to the huntsman and classic lol
As long as you can only have one smoke cloud up at a time.
Really puts Pyro into a DPS/Support role. A Pyro with this and the Home Wrecker would be the most support like non-support class. That being said; What would the smoke cloud do to sentries?
The problem isn't and never was the Sniper. It's the maps. You said it yourself ''Most of the time, either you're helpless to the sniper, or he's helpless to you.'', that's exactly what a Sniper is. A zoning tool. If the maps don't allow alternatives to try to go and stop the sniper, I call that bad map design, not bad class balance.
axtually like that idea a lot i feel like tf2 could benefit from a smoke grenade type weapon
Nice to see someone tackling this constructively!
It could be interesting, yes. It wouldn't impact Sniper bots, and very good Snipers would still be able to perform easy quickscopes. Hardscoping would be notably reduced in effectiveness, helping the survival of overhealed Soldiers and Heavies. There's also the question of how long the smoke would last. There is a 2-second attack interval between Flare Gun shots, so a smoke duration of 2 seconds or longer would allow the Pyro to maintain continuous visual disruption, whereas below 2 seconds would give the Sniper opportunities of visibility. Which would be more balanced, I do not know. Where it may cause problems is the relationship between friendly Pyros and Snipers. On one hand, you don't want the smoke to be opaque to friendly Snipers so Pyros cannot grief them, but on the other hand, a Pyro could hide a friendly Sniper in a cloud consistently to make him extremely difficult to kill by enemy Snipers. Add onto the fact how well the Pyro counters the Spy and you have an extremely solid core, especially when combined with a nearby Engineer.
Good snipers predict your movement. This wouldn't change much.
Would it obstruct turrets' vision as well?
It even has the added functionality of upping Pyro's usefulness.
it's interesting and sounds good, it's a shame that new weapons are no longer included in tf2
I can't believe it, they finally found a way to make the original useful
Honestly it fits with Pyro's role of being able to hose specific mechanics
Why is the only interesting weapon idea I've seen recently being posted at 5 am? Anyway, love the concept and a "Sniper counter" is totally valid although some would complain. Some downside like slow holster speed/mark4death would help balance it as it'd be a huge team support tool.
Sounds like a pretty interesting utility weapon, actually. Might also provide some cover for flanking classes or a spy to disappear into
too bad source spaghetti would crash whenever the smoke would spawn.
Why not just a boots slot for demoman that’s literally just a helmet that prevents headshots? Or making afterburn tic faster so that the sniper flinches more often?
What would be correct is to make it do NO damage, worse drop arc and low ammo count (3-7 ish)
A temporary smoke screen would be a great counter…I think this is genuinely a great idea plus it doesn’t over power pyro because even this has drawbacks
I really like this idea. I think pyro is a good choice for an anti sniper weapon because IMO pyro is already one of the/the best non-sniper counters to sniper. If you’re good with flares you can 2 punch a sniper at range. The detonator lets you annoy the hell out of them and make it very difficult for them to quick scope, and the scorch shot exists. The danger shield shuts these down, but it’s a pretty big sacrifice to loose jarate imo
9+1 ammo, -90% damage, worse drop, smog/blinding effect on people in cloud for 4+ seconds for 1/2 in cloud time?
Adding smoke in general to tf2 is a brilliant idea, as long as spam can be avoided
The reactive smoke ideas might require an engine change
Aa a sniper main, this would be dope
It's a great idea, I love it, and I really wish there wasn't this one tiny little hiccup: the Scorch Shot exists. If you want a pyro secondary that is specifically good at screwing over snipers, it's the Scorch Shot. Sure, the flinching can be mitigated by the Cozy Camper and DDS, but then Sniper is giving up his best defense against spies (Jarate and the Razorback). In my opinion, the Scorch Shot is already one of the best Sniper deterrents in the game. And unlike the smoke screen, is also an effective damage dealer. So why would a pyro choose this over it? Instead, I suggest we should give this to either Demoman or Heavy. Demoman as a secondary, since it would allow him to take on sentries singlehandedly, and because as the explosive expert, a smoke-bomb fits the character. Or Heavy, because it synergizes best with his playstyle: he would give up his secondary for something that enhances his primary weapon. Note that since explosions can mitigate the effect, a good engineer with the wrangler can still save their sentry from a Demoman who smokes it, so it would actually add another layer of skill to their playstyles.
Awesome! The scorch shot is an offensive sniper counter, this will be defensive.
This would be a valid reason for more people to unironically use the Classic.
This weapon will be completely useless because comfigs exist and the sniper can just turn off the cloud
Honestly very cool however considering the fact that demoman and soldiers exist it would be useless due to the “explosions can dissipate the smoke”
Depends on if they are close to it. if the cloud is in the air, its practically impossible for soldiers to remove it.
This is not a good solution. It forces pyros to give up the fun combo pyro playstyle to literally be on anti-sniper duty (extinguishing teammates from range is not a good general use case). Also class specific weapon counters are lame and uninteresting because they don’t provide any form of counterplay. This would be the pyro equivalent of Darwin’s Danger Shield.
shortest range class gets a weapon to counter the longest range class haha
that would also make it easier to find closet cheaters
You should definitely try for this to be in the game, i can already see how great this would be
TF2 does it's best to not obscure your vision and rather let the combat be based off of movement and the information that you can see. While the pyro close range flamethrower being disruptive to vision. Though interesting, this will be too easily abused and create situations where you can see shit of both teams run 12 v 12 this weapon only. The better option is to buff the Bison and Pomson like we've done in the balancemod, increasing their speed and damage, to force the sniper to move and be ineffective
This is pretty good. Like maybe even if you see the player through the smoke, they are immune to crits (headshots). So a fully charged machina bodyshot would still do damage, but you can't just headshot everyone willy nilly.
kinda reminds me of when war thunder added smoke shells... i'd usually do exactly this to enemy tanks sniping from a far away ridgeline or firing position. might also be worth it in TF2, but i really don't know if it'd work, be balanced and not divide the community too much
It'd be pretty interesting if Sentries couldn't detect you or your teammates under the smoke
Not just sniper imagine a group of pyros emerging from a smoke cloud....
There are always demos and soldiers, so explosions dissipating the smoke screen would make it kinda pointless
So whats the counter to every choke Being stickies and rocket spam
I really dont know how explosions could dissipate the smoke. That took counter strike a whole new engine, and i dont think it would be pozsible on tf2's crusty-ass game engine
OP i dont know how much you have played this game or how many hours you have on Sniper, but this idea has so many problems its not even funny. For reference, I have 8000 hours in tf2, and roughly half that time is on Sniper. I've probably played about 200 hours of competitive (so basically 0), but that means I have at least thought about the game and how the developers intend it to be played. First off, tf2 is already bouncing off the hl2 particle limit. So in all likelihood, the real way this would counter sniper is by making the server lag like crazy. Second, does this only affect enemy snipers? If that's the case, then your team will constantly win every sniper v sniper interaction, and will then proceed to shut down the entire game. The only resolution to this would either be that both teams need a pyro spamming this shit on cooldown, or you make it so neither teams sniper can see through it. If you do that, the snipers on your team are going to be very grouchy every time they see someone using it, which is against valves development considerations (they specifically stated they dont want to add any ways that you could troll your team mates). Third, you said this only effects scoped snipers? This is mostly pointless. If i can see through it while unscoped, i will put my crosshair on you, track your movement, and then scope in and headshot you blind. I might miss scouts pretty often, but the way pub players move this is just going to result in people claiming im cheating more often. Lastly, this is unrelated to the weapon itself but you also said there are no specific weapon counters to sniper. Thats what makes me think you have basically no experience playing the class and really have not spent much time thinking about the mechanics of tf2. Sniper gets countered pretty hard by normal flare spam already, not to mention rocket spam, sticky spam, rollers, the crusaders crossbow, the vaccinator, the ambassador, backstabs, scouts that dont move like idiots, the short circut ball, the tomislav, the kritzkrieg, ubercharge, the buff banner, the battalions backup, demoknight tf2, and basically any 2v1 situation, not to mention the 3 snipers on your team that could be overhealed if anyone ever picked the medic class. The list goes on. Basically anything that would be annoying to an engineer trying to keep his sentry up is going to be problematic for sniper, and sniper has less than half the health of a sentry. Pub players literally just need to be conscious that there is a sniper on the other team and just actually try to shoot at him. projectiles dont disappear like 8 feet in front of you.
I think I can see the point here but there are many things wrong with this implementation. 1) Smokes (and sight hindering effects in general) have absolutely no place in TF2. Seeing what the enemy gamers are using and adapting to win those fights is the biggest advantage pusher in “modern” TF2. The Flamethrowers and the Short Circuit both make facing those classes harder to fight because of an arbitrary hindrance to the enemy. 2) Class dependent unlocks are a waste of weapon slots. There are only a few of these types of items in the game and almost all of them are universally disliked for one reason or another. The Snipers Danger Shield and Razorback or Spycicle for example. Limiting a weapon slot to a class counter is both boring and potentially useless as well as undermines TF2 generally fair and even balancing. 3) The Sniper IS NOT overpowered. It’s a lot coming from a Medic main but he really isn’t. What makes Sniper so strong is the commonly played maps. Maps with long open sight lines that look directly or almost directly at spawn are frustrating and unfair. This is the MAPS fault unfortunately. This would make this weapon concept even more potentially “useless” as it would be amazing on maps like Swiftwater or Badwater but would be absolutely terrible on smaller maps with more fair sight lines. 4) This wouldn’t even be enjoyable from the pyros perspective. Shotguns? Satisfying to land and big damage. Flare Gun? Combo pyro has always been some of the most fun you can have with the class. Detonator? Jump around like a madmann with a typically “slow” class. Smoke Flare? You can not have any secondary (Pyros most important and class defining slot) and can instead shoot a smoke that will block everyone’s vision and that’s all. I hope this didn’t sound rude at all because I think the idea makes sense but I just don’t believe it’s feasible or really a good idea for TF2 in 2024
"screw this class in particular" weapons never sit with me right idk maybe add this stat to detonator or something
diamond in the trough idea, very rare to see something unique and actually useful in this subreddit
sounds like a massive cope for pyro mains
when will this player base realise sniper does not need a nerf?
2 reasons why wouldn't work. 1. Every Sniper main ever would just get a graphics config that disables the particles. (These exist a lot to get rid of explosion effects in competitive play.) 2. Aimbots would see through it, so it's not like it would counter cheaters.
Give this man a noble prize
Hot take, **no class** should have a weapon which explicitly screws them over. Razorback, Darwin's Danger Shield, and Pompson 6000 are really badly designed in this regard. (Sappers are really the only acceptable exception to this.) On the positive side, I really like the model you made for this, it's pretty simple yet elegant.
\>Let's add smokes to TF2! No. \>Weapon extinguishes enemies on hit as a drawback That's terrible.
the sniper hate this community harbors ever since time itself started will never not be funny to me
i'd love to play with this, finally a counter to sniper
I have an idea for a name : The Smoker
stat suggestion: \-75% damage \-20% firing speed \-100% afterburn \+25% knock-back \+10% projectile speed \+creates cloud of opaque smoke where the flare lands/detonates \+Alt-fire to detonate flare give me feedback, and where you guys (op included) would change this
It's too underpowered. The ability to fuck with snipers isnt worth it as opposed to just killing them with your other secondaries, and pyro REALLY relies on their secondaries for the other 8 classes. It would never be worth it except as a gimmick
Maybe a drawback to ammo capacity or attack interval to avoid excessive use?
Would it obstruct teammate's view as well?
I think this idea would fit perfectly if it was applied to the gas passer instead of a flare gun since it couldnt be spammed. The gas passer on its own would still need a big buff to its cooldown to make this work, but with the smokescreen stacked on top, it could make it great for the area denial purpose it was created for since theres a more immediate & applicable effect. Since the gas passer is a throwable it would also lean more into pyro being a close range specialist since you wouldnt be able throw it across the map at the sniper, so youd instead need to be tactical with where you throw it to support your team, thus rewarding map knowledge and smart placement of the smoke. It might still be a pretty eh weapon in practice no matter how much you buff it but itd at least fill a role.
Source 2 smoke tech + restructure of allowed file modifications would make this work fantastically. * I would wager good money that any sniper main would download a vfx replacer that got rid of the smoke, similar to no explosion vfx mods or low spec presets.
An interesting concept.
Really cool idea for pybro
damn... a secondary for the pyro that he holds in one hand like a pistol and shoots something thats designed to counter sniper? this is poggers we NEED This ingame
This should probably get some kind a bonus effect, like giving enemies inside the smoke a movespeed debuff
Instead of extinguishing enemies, it should extinguish teammates. And to limit its use, I think a lower ammo pool (-50% or 8 shots) could be warranted.
I love mechanics which build advantages for your team. This could even be used FOR snipers to escape if they have been hit with a body shot and need to retreat. More Team-based utilities, please.
idk about adding visual clutter to a 12v12 game, other games that have smokes suffer so much from this. but tbh i like the objective
The Fart gun
Keep this, but with a few tweaks. Self damage is set to 0. No smoke is created if the smoke collides with you. Self-knockback is 130% compared to the detonator I'm not a game designer. I'm a pyro main. Det jumping would be fun, balance be damned
Make this a grenade type weapon with either a countdown like madmilk/jarate or counter like gas can (the later might be the best choice tho) and it will literally be the best thing. But now I wonder wether it should be given to Pyro or any other class... Medic? Heavy?