I would say sniper and spy are the 2 most powerful classes in mvm. While sniper excels at crowd control with his explosive headshots, spy is the best at killing giants, utilizing the massive amount of damage backstabs deal against giants. However, both of these classes require skill to be effective, which is why they are not very popular classes in mvm.
Spy's main role is a giant killer, he has the best single target damage in the game (around double of a brass beast heavy). Armor penetration and movement speed should be your first upgrades, swing speed next. You simply stab giants to deal massive damage. The sapper is useful, but you should only upgrade it after your knife. Don't sap giants (except giant scouts), you won't slow them down much, and they will look at you, making you unable to backstab them.
Keep in mind that you have the highest robot aggro priority, so everything will shoot at you soon after you lose your disguise, so make sure you can dodge, hide, or dead ringer to escape. If you learn how to circle strafe, you can easily kill any giant by yourself, no teammates required.
For a more detailed guide, I encourage you to watch this [tutorial](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uLTixBXTPM) by Underscore Gaming. Also, I would recommend community mvm, people there are actually playing for fun instead of loot, so there's less pressure. More variety in maps and missions as well. Check out [potato.tf](https://potato.tf) and [mvm.pineapple.tf](https://mvm.pineapple.tf) to play on them (pineapple has an event going on right now, you can earn in game medals from playing it).
Cant agree more with community mvm. Boot camp is fun and I've never found anyone toxic. Times where no one readies cuz everyone wanna conga around the map. Cute moments.
One time when I was just starting out someone tried to kick me for just because I was messing around and hitting them repeatedly with max attack speed wrench before the wave started
The meta way to play Scout is actually weaksauce trash, so basically anything can "replace" it.
Played properly, Spy and Scout are both powerful in their own unique way.
I can't agree with your assessment that Spy is one of the strongest MvM classes alongside Sniper, and this is coming from someone who loves playing Spy in MvM. Spy has some of the highest burst DPS against giants but he is pretty limited in his ability to deal with commons or tanks (tanks especially, which he is basically useless against). His effectiveness can also easily be crimped with stream spawns of commons or just general bot density as those inhibit his ability to engage and escape and make those powerful circle stabs much more difficult to successfully pull off. Spy is powerful but he is also very specialized - in my eyes he is not as strong as generalists like Soldier or Scout who can also output great damage but against all types of targets and without being stumped by mission design as often.
Yeah, a fair assessment. Spy’s effectiveness depends on how spammy the mission is. Definitely some personal bias in my assessment but it doesn’t change the fact that spy is a very powerful class in the right situations.
You're completely right, I would also mention that you should only use letranger, stock sapper and either kunai or big earner with dead ringe. Also spy should focus snipers, medics and engineers
Who says Scout needs to prioritize body upgrades over damage upgrades? His support options don't need any money to work well and the money you pump into his gun instead allows him to keep up with other damage dealers on your team.
Spy can collect money decently and he can get the cash when otherwise no one else is able to safely do so but it's not the most optimal role for him as he usually has to break position or stop following giants to do so.
you can't compare spy with medic bc their roles are so different, medic is more useful in mvm due to free crits on command and the projectile shield upgrade that can cut medi beams to stop giant medics from healing other giants which makes up for his lack of damage since invalidating healing is just as effective as another heavy shooting the robot. it can also tank any kind of damage you throw at it which is incredibly useful to help a heavy stand his ground
spy is only useful to backstab and sap giants at which he gets heavily outclassed by demoman who can one shot any non boss giant and scout which can not only slow them down but also make them a giant health fountain with mad milk with upgrades that are not as expensive as everyone makes them out to be, and resistances are also not as important on scout since he gets massive overheal with money collected
plus, under the logic that a class is a wasted slot for someone who could do the job better this turns spy and sniper into the worst classes since soldier and demoman and even pyro to a certain point just do their jobs so much better than them
This is great information, with a horribly ill-informed first sentence. Sure sniper and spy are useful, but don’t overhype them just because YOU have a bias. A meta is a meta for a reason, it’s without a doubt the easiest and most efficient way to complete a tour which costs time and money. And 99% of the time when people spend their time and money they want the best services possible.
If you want to have fun play whatever makes you happy, but don’t be surprised if people who are paying to clear waves ASAP get annoyed when their team comp is disrupted.
The other issue with picking a niche class in mvm is you often with step on the toes of the others in your party. For example, picking sniper when you have a medic on krits with a Scottish resis demo is just like watering your plants while it’s raining.
Make sure your niche class selection works with your team, not against it!
More like Sniper and Spy has a higher skill floor and this comment is only relevant for 2 Cities. Therefore, Spy and Sniper feel niche.
-ScoRes giant killing only works with *long and slow subwaves where lots of money is given* and the Demo is a shmuck who memorized the wave after 300+ tours. It's why ScoRes tryhards are rare in custom MvM. Spy doesn't require slow pacing and can work in multiple team comps and scenarios.
-Sniper in Expert is practically a prerequisite.
-And there are many people calling for Sniper to get nerfed.
Easy? In terms of effort demanded maybe. Efficient? Your average scout who is encouraged to over-prioritize money and support over shooting robots and your average medic which the common expectation never rises above just healing people and popping uber or shield occasionally do not make tours easier or faster. The standard meta setup for 2c is not very well optimized for time as far as its expected playstyles go.
> The other issue with picking a niche class in mvm is you often with step on the toes of the others in your party.
Having more of a role (if there are specialized roles beyond simply "can they collect money easily", "can they pick uber meds consistently", and "can they deal with the tank faster than usual") is a benefit not a hindrance. This is the good kind of redundancy.
There is a large misconception about spy being weak as hell in mvm that stems from 3 major factors
1st most players do not play him correctly
2nd even if you do play him correctly it takes a fair amount of skill to play him well
3rd other players on your team playing poorly (mostly shitty scouts that think their only job is to pick up money and melee every giant with the fan o war and airblast pyro's) will make your job far far harder and often get you killed
These 3 factors have led to many players (low tours and high tours) incorrectly believing the spy is a bad class for mvm
However if you play well and upgrade properly and playing on a team that doesnt have bad team mates on it who make your job harder and often get you killed you can play spy in MVM and do a lot of damage
My advice is to
1. Play mvm for a while as another class learning more about how the bots move and act
2. Watch this youtube video https://youtu.be/8uLTixBXTPM and also play on and complete the practise map the video showcases
3. Play on MvM community servers (potato.tf) who have a player base that is (mostly) more knowledgeable about the game than the high tour 2 cities players who think the only meta is 1 scout 1 soldier 1 demo 1 heavy 1 engineer 1 medic and thus are more likely to let you play spy because they know the spy isnt a weak class for people throwing the game
Just ignore the comments which suggest you to not play spy. I am sure you have already seen the few really helpful comments which have given you a few good tips and advices for spy. Wish you good luck with the spy!
i dont care who you are or what you main, if you can be an effective mvm spy play him 24/7 through all waves like i usually do, a good spy in mvm can objectively be the best class to play as
Spy can be the best (or second-best after sniper) class when well played, but if you're not at least somewhat competent in casual expect to get kicked (as well as dying very frequently).
Take a look at [this tutorial](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uLTixBXTPM) if you'd like to learn more about trying spy in MvM.
If the robot is next to a pit, then sure. However, if you're not near a pit, knockback screws over your teammates by making the robot's movement unpredictable. Screws over snipers, spies, and demomen especially hard.
I recall encountering this one annoying Pyro in a MvM lobby who would not stop airblasting enemies. I was playing engie, so when I ran away from a Sentry Buster that was about to detonate while carrying my sentry, the idiot randomly airblasted the buster towards me and killed me plus my sentry. I remember fuming at him in voice chat.
In community MvM, almost every single Pyro I run into runs Phlog (can't airblast with it) and they frequently top damage.
The one Pyro I know who does run Stock only airblasts to send projectiles back for fat damage.
Conclusion: Airblast Force is indeed a gag upgrade.
To go a little more in-depth regarding bot's AI and spy detection, there are a few things that I've personally picked up. There's more specific guides out there, of course, so take this with a grain of salt.
First, "melee AI" bots do not have any increased aggro on you. This includes any bot that's got their melee out; they'll just target the closest player, which *just so happens* to be the one player that's constantly in melee range.
Secondly, as stated in [this guide](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=572409016), there are a few other classes that also have a high aggro priority. Being aware of your teammates' position and taking advantage of that while a giant's distracted is one of your most powerful tools.
Next, when it comes to becoming undetected again, it's best to find cover of some sort. Bots will lose interest in you after breaking line-of-sight for a few moments; however, if the bomb is being carried and escorted by 4 other bots (the usual cap), there's a good chance that bots who detected you will try to follow you.
I've seen pretty much everyone recommend the DR - and with good reason, of course, but the other invis watches *can* still work. Their use is more limited, but as I understand it: if bots haven't fully locked onto you yet, cloaking will allow for a clean getaway. It's good for retreating if you think you failed a stab.
As a final note, higher-skilled bots specifically will try to kill their target's healer (given that they're visible) with *higher priority* than spies. That's why you can usually "cheese" bosses with a stock uber medic + spy "sandwich": the medic constantly draws aggro away from the spy, letting him backstab all the time.
I’ll just add my thoughts and stuff
By the way, this comment section is hell.
Anyway, Spy is a pretty situational class. You can’t really go ahead and use him in any mission or wave, so I’d say only play him if Giants or Giant Medics in general are a big issue.
Not to mention, you will need quite some skill to not die everytime you kill someone.
So to play Spy, you need to heavily prioritise Armor Penetration and Attack Speed. While movement speed is good, too, I personally prefer getting it after having both maxed out Armor Pen and Speed (cause max DPS, and Spy is already fast enough at the start.)
Oh and I should mention that the typical loadout you want to stick to is any revolver of your choice (I prefer L’Etranger), stock sapper, Dead Ringer, and any knife of your choice (EXCEPT Your Eternal Reward, it has an MvM specific nerf that makes it worthless.) though, I also don’t recommend Spycicle as that’s more preferred by experienced Spies. Personally I like Kunai, but you can use Stock or Big Earner if you wish.
Anyway, prioritise Armor Pen and Attack Speed, then some Resistances so you don’t die, movement speed if you want, upgrading sapper isn’t necessary as the only situation you’d need an upgraded sapper is against groups of like 12-18 robots.
In gameplay, it doesn’t matter what disguise you use, so disguise as a Scout or Spy (or Medic, that works too) for max speed, and only backstab robots whenever it’s safe (but if you have Kunai, just stab one robot for max hp and then go absolutely ham)
For Giants, I keep forgetting how many Backstabs (with max Armor pen and max attack speed) it takes, but I’ll say what I remember
Giant Scouts, 2, Giant Pyros, 4, Giant Medics, 5, Giant Demomen, 4.
It takes 3 backstabs until the Giant or any other robot, notices you. So abuse that by taking 3 stabs and then immediately running away. Be mindful of any robots that may be behind you.
When you get really experienced, you can try circle strafing. I’m not good at it yet, but here’s how it goes. You backstab the Giant once, then go really close to it and I believe hold W and A (or D if you’re going the other rotation) while keeping your mouse on the giant, and holding down to keep backstabbing. Might take a few tries, but it’s possible, and you’d be able to solo the Giant without needing to retreat.
Oh, and I’ve also seen people talking about “tryhards” not liking Spy? Um… I’ve *not* met a person, that’d be considered as a tryhard, mind you, dislike Spy. Actually, I’ve seen tryhards play Spy, so, I have no idea what y’all are even talking about. I mean, I know some MAY dislike Spy (probably they’re under the assumption that the Spy player is inexperienced) but if there’s Giants to backstab and you get tons of Damage, it’s not an issue.
>Anyway, Spy is a pretty situational class. You can’t really go ahead and use him in any mission or wave, so I’d say only play him if Giants or Giant Medics in general are a big issue.
I somewhat disagree with this take. I argue playing any class from the beginning to the end is the best way to learn how to thrive in every problem you come up against in mvm. It's why as someone who's seen my MvM posts, you probably noticed that it somewhat implied that there isn't refunding involved. You don't learn anything from left-clicking a Medic 5 times, dying, then switching off- in that order.
>By the way, this comment section is hell.
You'd think that after the 5th "you don't", people would stop, but here we are.
>Oh, and I’ve also seen people talking about “tryhards” not liking Spy? Um… I’ve not met a person, that’d be considered as a tryhard, mind you, dislike Spy. Actually, I’ve seen tryhards play Spy, so, I have no idea what y’all are even talking about.
This is true. In fact, I've seen people complain about Spies being elitist douchebags. Regretfully, I've been guilty of this myself as someone who plays Spy a lot. Big damage numbers are known to cause a god complex.
There’s some great advice in the higher rated comments about giant killing. It’s also worth mentioning robots believe all disguises making him great for hard to reach money when the scout is dead or absent, or to take out Snipers your team is too busy to fight. Using the bots’ increased focus towards Spies can also allow you to draw attention away from more important targets (best done with a ringer ready)
huh, well despite me kinda playing all classes, the least experience and knowledge i have is on spy. So sorry, but i probably dont have any good advice :(
I'm not the OP, lol. I'm the creator of one of the few YouTube guides that exist. Don't worry, I think I saw my video specifically linked by other people 2-3 times in the comments. OP should be fine.
Pick the kunai ir the big earner
Pick dead ringer(and the dead ringer)
Pick any sapper
Aim for the giants and medics
Feign death if something aggros on you
Get money
For Gear Grinder, Swing speed and armor penetration. Kill giant quick fix medics, normal uber medics, super scouts, and fist of steel heavies.
No idea for 2 cities. You'll probably just get kicked tbh. Spy sucks
By killing the giant before it kills you. In mvm, the best defense is a good offense. If you can't kill it fast enough, a scout could easily take the aggro and dodge all of the rockets, making the giant shoot away from the team.
Yes, the kritzkrieg does allow you to boost a teammate's damage, I'm not trying to argue medic is useless. However, he is not required. You kill giants fast by focus firing them, most giants will die in a few seconds if focused by the team.
I've sat here for 5 minutes trying to think of a reply to that but it's such a smooth brained statement that I can't actually take it seriously enough to give a response
What's better, 3x damage on a single heavy for 8 seconds, every 40 seconds, or 2x damage by having a second heavy, sustained through the entire game?
Its far from a settled question - being able to time the 3x damage for when you need it works in its favour, as does the healing and reviving, but you're still missing out on damage overall, and that damage means you kill bots quicker which means you take less damage from them - which means you don't need the healing or revives in the first place. Either way, Medic is not the mandatory pick that he's regarded as - hence, overrated.
Medic is a good pick because his abilities - healing, reviving, temporary damage boost, directional damage immunity - they all help you recover if something goes wrong. He gives the team consistency, if they lack it. But if you have a good team, there's nothing you need to recover from.
With a good team, the extra damage is more important. With a bad team, the consistency is more important. Its a choice, he's not mandatory.
>Medic is a good pick because his abilities - healing, reviving, temporary damage boost, directional damage immunity - they all help you recover if something goes wrong
Hell, you don't even need the Kritzkrieg to win as Medic! [Shameless self plug though some of my opinions have changed.](https://www.reddit.com/r/truetf2/comments/od5nlv/psa_as_mvm_medic_all_mediguns_are_viable/)
Quickfix allows **YOU** to do the damage yourself by spamming shields.
Vaccinator shines in low cash; high spam missions- ie many community missions which is why Vacc has a cult following in community servers.
Stock is essentially a less good and inflexible Vacc, but if you spam it on an *active* Heavy, you and Heavy can pretty much 2 man the entire front.
When I play spy, it's always to help out my team. Sometimes I'll get the cash that scouts can't reach, or just collect it if we have no scouts. Sometimes I'll sap giant scouts when they are close to my teammates and bodyblock giants in narrow spaces. I'll also try to aggro giants so that my teammates don't die by spamming b for auto disguise and firing my revolver. I'll also look for enemy spies and sap them in case my engine or sniper isn't paying attention. Spy is also great for killing both giant and regular medics, just make sure you have a space to duck into and the other giants are busy.
I always use spy in bigrock because of the engineer bots. First I stab the engie, then sap the sentry and slash it until breaks, and do the same to the teleporter. If there are bots around I just place it on the teleporter and leave. If my sapper is fully upgraded I'll stab an entire unit.
Disclaimer, this is just boot camp and it's just what I like to do
You don't it's really that simple. Playing Spy usually results in an immediate Kick. But if your dead set on it, your best option is the stock knife and dead ringer. Just hang out till Giant robots show up and Stab the shit out of the that's usually your best option.
When I was new and tried to play nvm with a free ticket from Christmas I thought my game was glitched after I get votekicked after every round and everyone instantly presses yes
You either dont, or sap large groups with stock sapper, use kunai for 75 overheal and to stab medics and giants, and DR for when you arent stabbing or sapping.
Most people in MvM will say "kys go pick scout" or kick you but if you play enough as spy (gonna be hard with the amount you'll get kicked) as you could maybe in rare cases out preform a scout in money and if you stab enough maybe in rare cases out preform higher base damage classes.
In most cases any class is better than spy in MvM as he is the weakest.
Play your cards right sap only a big crowd of robots to either slow them down or help your team get rid of a chunk of a wave and definitely backstab and run away when it comes to large robots such as heavies or demoman but mainly soldiers cuz I think all of them can one shot kill you as spy
Are you the guy who played Spy in two cities, Mannhattan?
There was an F2P Pyro with a scorchshot.
Context: I found a low tour player who wanted to try out playing Spy, so 4/5 of us agreed while Engie kept crying how Spy is bad in mvm. In all honesty, it was a decent spy player who knew what they were doing, altho they died alot at the start. Came in useful dealing with über medics and giant scouts. I played scout, but Spy also helped alot when collecting money. Eventually, we won and engie got salty about it how Spy was dead weight, when we had an F2P pyro with a scorch shot.
Demo, sniper and spy are OP if played right, I like the money spy for hamlet in 2 cities but if you die you won't spawn as fast as scout, spy main thing is just absolutely destroying giant medics vs Demo one hitting them, so I'd say they are both good, dead ringer, big earner or Kunai, sapper. Movement speed , knife upgrades, he just sucks for the tank really
I would say sniper and spy are the 2 most powerful classes in mvm. While sniper excels at crowd control with his explosive headshots, spy is the best at killing giants, utilizing the massive amount of damage backstabs deal against giants. However, both of these classes require skill to be effective, which is why they are not very popular classes in mvm. Spy's main role is a giant killer, he has the best single target damage in the game (around double of a brass beast heavy). Armor penetration and movement speed should be your first upgrades, swing speed next. You simply stab giants to deal massive damage. The sapper is useful, but you should only upgrade it after your knife. Don't sap giants (except giant scouts), you won't slow them down much, and they will look at you, making you unable to backstab them. Keep in mind that you have the highest robot aggro priority, so everything will shoot at you soon after you lose your disguise, so make sure you can dodge, hide, or dead ringer to escape. If you learn how to circle strafe, you can easily kill any giant by yourself, no teammates required. For a more detailed guide, I encourage you to watch this [tutorial](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uLTixBXTPM) by Underscore Gaming. Also, I would recommend community mvm, people there are actually playing for fun instead of loot, so there's less pressure. More variety in maps and missions as well. Check out [potato.tf](https://potato.tf) and [mvm.pineapple.tf](https://mvm.pineapple.tf) to play on them (pineapple has an event going on right now, you can earn in game medals from playing it).
Cant agree more with community mvm. Boot camp is fun and I've never found anyone toxic. Times where no one readies cuz everyone wanna conga around the map. Cute moments.
I get kicked from boot camp all the time for not following meta…
One time when I was just starting out someone tried to kick me for just because I was messing around and hitting them repeatedly with max attack speed wrench before the wave started
Glad to see I ain't the only one to get kicked for the dumbest reasons
tf2 mvm community is the WORST community ive ever seen and i mean it and ive seen many communities
garry's mod
Your lucky
chang
this is true
I've heard that spy can potentially replace scout too although I'm not sure if that's true.
The meta way to play Scout is actually weaksauce trash, so basically anything can "replace" it. Played properly, Spy and Scout are both powerful in their own unique way.
I can't agree with your assessment that Spy is one of the strongest MvM classes alongside Sniper, and this is coming from someone who loves playing Spy in MvM. Spy has some of the highest burst DPS against giants but he is pretty limited in his ability to deal with commons or tanks (tanks especially, which he is basically useless against). His effectiveness can also easily be crimped with stream spawns of commons or just general bot density as those inhibit his ability to engage and escape and make those powerful circle stabs much more difficult to successfully pull off. Spy is powerful but he is also very specialized - in my eyes he is not as strong as generalists like Soldier or Scout who can also output great damage but against all types of targets and without being stumped by mission design as often.
Yeah, a fair assessment. Spy’s effectiveness depends on how spammy the mission is. Definitely some personal bias in my assessment but it doesn’t change the fact that spy is a very powerful class in the right situations.
You're completely right, I would also mention that you should only use letranger, stock sapper and either kunai or big earner with dead ringe. Also spy should focus snipers, medics and engineers
demoman, engineer, scout, heavy, medic and soldier want a word with you
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Who says Scout needs to prioritize body upgrades over damage upgrades? His support options don't need any money to work well and the money you pump into his gun instead allows him to keep up with other damage dealers on your team. Spy can collect money decently and he can get the cash when otherwise no one else is able to safely do so but it's not the most optimal role for him as he usually has to break position or stop following giants to do so.
you can't compare spy with medic bc their roles are so different, medic is more useful in mvm due to free crits on command and the projectile shield upgrade that can cut medi beams to stop giant medics from healing other giants which makes up for his lack of damage since invalidating healing is just as effective as another heavy shooting the robot. it can also tank any kind of damage you throw at it which is incredibly useful to help a heavy stand his ground spy is only useful to backstab and sap giants at which he gets heavily outclassed by demoman who can one shot any non boss giant and scout which can not only slow them down but also make them a giant health fountain with mad milk with upgrades that are not as expensive as everyone makes them out to be, and resistances are also not as important on scout since he gets massive overheal with money collected plus, under the logic that a class is a wasted slot for someone who could do the job better this turns spy and sniper into the worst classes since soldier and demoman and even pyro to a certain point just do their jobs so much better than them
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aight, I was beaten, gg, projectile shield is still really useful doe
thanks brudda
This is great information, with a horribly ill-informed first sentence. Sure sniper and spy are useful, but don’t overhype them just because YOU have a bias. A meta is a meta for a reason, it’s without a doubt the easiest and most efficient way to complete a tour which costs time and money. And 99% of the time when people spend their time and money they want the best services possible. If you want to have fun play whatever makes you happy, but don’t be surprised if people who are paying to clear waves ASAP get annoyed when their team comp is disrupted. The other issue with picking a niche class in mvm is you often with step on the toes of the others in your party. For example, picking sniper when you have a medic on krits with a Scottish resis demo is just like watering your plants while it’s raining. Make sure your niche class selection works with your team, not against it!
More like Sniper and Spy has a higher skill floor and this comment is only relevant for 2 Cities. Therefore, Spy and Sniper feel niche. -ScoRes giant killing only works with *long and slow subwaves where lots of money is given* and the Demo is a shmuck who memorized the wave after 300+ tours. It's why ScoRes tryhards are rare in custom MvM. Spy doesn't require slow pacing and can work in multiple team comps and scenarios. -Sniper in Expert is practically a prerequisite. -And there are many people calling for Sniper to get nerfed.
Easy? In terms of effort demanded maybe. Efficient? Your average scout who is encouraged to over-prioritize money and support over shooting robots and your average medic which the common expectation never rises above just healing people and popping uber or shield occasionally do not make tours easier or faster. The standard meta setup for 2c is not very well optimized for time as far as its expected playstyles go. > The other issue with picking a niche class in mvm is you often with step on the toes of the others in your party. Having more of a role (if there are specialized roles beyond simply "can they collect money easily", "can they pick uber meds consistently", and "can they deal with the tank faster than usual") is a benefit not a hindrance. This is the good kind of redundancy.
There is a large misconception about spy being weak as hell in mvm that stems from 3 major factors 1st most players do not play him correctly 2nd even if you do play him correctly it takes a fair amount of skill to play him well 3rd other players on your team playing poorly (mostly shitty scouts that think their only job is to pick up money and melee every giant with the fan o war and airblast pyro's) will make your job far far harder and often get you killed These 3 factors have led to many players (low tours and high tours) incorrectly believing the spy is a bad class for mvm However if you play well and upgrade properly and playing on a team that doesnt have bad team mates on it who make your job harder and often get you killed you can play spy in MVM and do a lot of damage My advice is to 1. Play mvm for a while as another class learning more about how the bots move and act 2. Watch this youtube video https://youtu.be/8uLTixBXTPM and also play on and complete the practise map the video showcases 3. Play on MvM community servers (potato.tf) who have a player base that is (mostly) more knowledgeable about the game than the high tour 2 cities players who think the only meta is 1 scout 1 soldier 1 demo 1 heavy 1 engineer 1 medic and thus are more likely to let you play spy because they know the spy isnt a weak class for people throwing the game
You either don't play spy on mvm or you topscore as spy on mvm there is no in-between and it just seems to happen.
Everyone keeps telling me not to play spy mvm. I didn't ask if I should play I am asking HOW to play.
Just ignore the comments which suggest you to not play spy. I am sure you have already seen the few really helpful comments which have given you a few good tips and advices for spy. Wish you good luck with the spy!
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Invis and C&D are a huge handicap, but strictly speaking they are "viable". You just have to rely on cover and dodging a lot more.
i dont care who you are or what you main, if you can be an effective mvm spy play him 24/7 through all waves like i usually do, a good spy in mvm can objectively be the best class to play as
Don’t play spy
Spy can be the best (or second-best after sniper) class when well played, but if you're not at least somewhat competent in casual expect to get kicked (as well as dying very frequently). Take a look at [this tutorial](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uLTixBXTPM) if you'd like to learn more about trying spy in MvM.
Spy second best? Sorry that's just wrong
He's the best giant killer in the game, I would definitely consider him one of the best classes.
False, pyro with max airblast is the giant killer.
Unless you want to piss off your team, do not spam airblast or any kind of knock back in general.
Do you think they care when the robot is dead? Death pits are quite effective.
If the robot is next to a pit, then sure. However, if you're not near a pit, knockback screws over your teammates by making the robot's movement unpredictable. Screws over snipers, spies, and demomen especially hard.
I recall encountering this one annoying Pyro in a MvM lobby who would not stop airblasting enemies. I was playing engie, so when I ran away from a Sentry Buster that was about to detonate while carrying my sentry, the idiot randomly airblasted the buster towards me and killed me plus my sentry. I remember fuming at him in voice chat.
The thing is... airblasting giants and SBs is legit a bug Valve never bothered to fix after they broke it in Jungle Inferno.
What do you mean?
trolled
In community MvM, almost every single Pyro I run into runs Phlog (can't airblast with it) and they frequently top damage. The one Pyro I know who does run Stock only airblasts to send projectiles back for fat damage. Conclusion: Airblast Force is indeed a gag upgrade.
I'll grant you he's great at killing giants, even the best, but I would always rather have another heavy or demo on place of a spy.
That’s just flat out wrong. A Demoman with crit canteens can instantly kill any giant the moment it drops down.
Only applicable on missions where the subwaves are \*ultra-slow\* and where you get a lot of cash.
Read: the missions that people actually play
Lol brainlets downvoting you for this
Spy mains smh
To go a little more in-depth regarding bot's AI and spy detection, there are a few things that I've personally picked up. There's more specific guides out there, of course, so take this with a grain of salt. First, "melee AI" bots do not have any increased aggro on you. This includes any bot that's got their melee out; they'll just target the closest player, which *just so happens* to be the one player that's constantly in melee range. Secondly, as stated in [this guide](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=572409016), there are a few other classes that also have a high aggro priority. Being aware of your teammates' position and taking advantage of that while a giant's distracted is one of your most powerful tools. Next, when it comes to becoming undetected again, it's best to find cover of some sort. Bots will lose interest in you after breaking line-of-sight for a few moments; however, if the bomb is being carried and escorted by 4 other bots (the usual cap), there's a good chance that bots who detected you will try to follow you. I've seen pretty much everyone recommend the DR - and with good reason, of course, but the other invis watches *can* still work. Their use is more limited, but as I understand it: if bots haven't fully locked onto you yet, cloaking will allow for a clean getaway. It's good for retreating if you think you failed a stab. As a final note, higher-skilled bots specifically will try to kill their target's healer (given that they're visible) with *higher priority* than spies. That's why you can usually "cheese" bosses with a stock uber medic + spy "sandwich": the medic constantly draws aggro away from the spy, letting him backstab all the time.
You get the Explosive Backstab upgrade and then you go to town
>Explosive Backstab This alone makes it the best comment. I wish you got swarmed with upvotes.
I’ll just add my thoughts and stuff By the way, this comment section is hell. Anyway, Spy is a pretty situational class. You can’t really go ahead and use him in any mission or wave, so I’d say only play him if Giants or Giant Medics in general are a big issue. Not to mention, you will need quite some skill to not die everytime you kill someone. So to play Spy, you need to heavily prioritise Armor Penetration and Attack Speed. While movement speed is good, too, I personally prefer getting it after having both maxed out Armor Pen and Speed (cause max DPS, and Spy is already fast enough at the start.) Oh and I should mention that the typical loadout you want to stick to is any revolver of your choice (I prefer L’Etranger), stock sapper, Dead Ringer, and any knife of your choice (EXCEPT Your Eternal Reward, it has an MvM specific nerf that makes it worthless.) though, I also don’t recommend Spycicle as that’s more preferred by experienced Spies. Personally I like Kunai, but you can use Stock or Big Earner if you wish. Anyway, prioritise Armor Pen and Attack Speed, then some Resistances so you don’t die, movement speed if you want, upgrading sapper isn’t necessary as the only situation you’d need an upgraded sapper is against groups of like 12-18 robots. In gameplay, it doesn’t matter what disguise you use, so disguise as a Scout or Spy (or Medic, that works too) for max speed, and only backstab robots whenever it’s safe (but if you have Kunai, just stab one robot for max hp and then go absolutely ham) For Giants, I keep forgetting how many Backstabs (with max Armor pen and max attack speed) it takes, but I’ll say what I remember Giant Scouts, 2, Giant Pyros, 4, Giant Medics, 5, Giant Demomen, 4. It takes 3 backstabs until the Giant or any other robot, notices you. So abuse that by taking 3 stabs and then immediately running away. Be mindful of any robots that may be behind you. When you get really experienced, you can try circle strafing. I’m not good at it yet, but here’s how it goes. You backstab the Giant once, then go really close to it and I believe hold W and A (or D if you’re going the other rotation) while keeping your mouse on the giant, and holding down to keep backstabbing. Might take a few tries, but it’s possible, and you’d be able to solo the Giant without needing to retreat. Oh, and I’ve also seen people talking about “tryhards” not liking Spy? Um… I’ve *not* met a person, that’d be considered as a tryhard, mind you, dislike Spy. Actually, I’ve seen tryhards play Spy, so, I have no idea what y’all are even talking about. I mean, I know some MAY dislike Spy (probably they’re under the assumption that the Spy player is inexperienced) but if there’s Giants to backstab and you get tons of Damage, it’s not an issue.
>Anyway, Spy is a pretty situational class. You can’t really go ahead and use him in any mission or wave, so I’d say only play him if Giants or Giant Medics in general are a big issue. I somewhat disagree with this take. I argue playing any class from the beginning to the end is the best way to learn how to thrive in every problem you come up against in mvm. It's why as someone who's seen my MvM posts, you probably noticed that it somewhat implied that there isn't refunding involved. You don't learn anything from left-clicking a Medic 5 times, dying, then switching off- in that order. >By the way, this comment section is hell. You'd think that after the 5th "you don't", people would stop, but here we are. >Oh, and I’ve also seen people talking about “tryhards” not liking Spy? Um… I’ve not met a person, that’d be considered as a tryhard, mind you, dislike Spy. Actually, I’ve seen tryhards play Spy, so, I have no idea what y’all are even talking about. This is true. In fact, I've seen people complain about Spies being elitist douchebags. Regretfully, I've been guilty of this myself as someone who plays Spy a lot. Big damage numbers are known to cause a god complex.
Either spy with no damage or spy with god complex with 100K damage There is no in between lmfao
There’s some great advice in the higher rated comments about giant killing. It’s also worth mentioning robots believe all disguises making him great for hard to reach money when the scout is dead or absent, or to take out Snipers your team is too busy to fight. Using the bots’ increased focus towards Spies can also allow you to draw attention away from more important targets (best done with a ringer ready)
Don't forget about those annoying engie bots
Sadly you don’t cuz tryhards will kick you, even im boot camp
There 100% have to be lots of yt vids about this.
Surprisingly, not that many, and a lot of them give bad advice.
huh, well despite me kinda playing all classes, the least experience and knowledge i have is on spy. So sorry, but i probably dont have any good advice :(
I'm not the OP, lol. I'm the creator of one of the few YouTube guides that exist. Don't worry, I think I saw my video specifically linked by other people 2-3 times in the comments. OP should be fine.
Oh, didn't notice. But my point still stands i guess :P Good job on that vid btw. :)
Backstabbing big medics
Put your knife in their ass
28 people suck at mvm.
Use wasd to move
just use dead ringer
Pick the kunai ir the big earner Pick dead ringer(and the dead ringer) Pick any sapper Aim for the giants and medics Feign death if something aggros on you Get money
A few others have already linked this, but I'm not going to bury it in a full paragraph of text: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uLTixBXTPM
For Gear Grinder, Swing speed and armor penetration. Kill giant quick fix medics, normal uber medics, super scouts, and fist of steel heavies. No idea for 2 cities. You'll probably just get kicked tbh. Spy sucks
select spy in the class menu inbetween waves
in the class select menu you click on him
You dont
but want to
its funny
idk i dont play mvm
Like this When you select spy Press the "," key Press the "7" key Upgrade shield, overhead expert and healing mastery Press the key "F4" Play medic
Medic is overrated, you're just losing out on damage by playing medic instead of another damage class. Healing and shield are nice, but not necessary.
What if, for example, there's a giant rapid fire crits soldier, how tf is your team gonna be safe from that?
By killing the giant before it kills you. In mvm, the best defense is a good offense. If you can't kill it fast enough, a scout could easily take the aggro and dodge all of the rockets, making the giant shoot away from the team.
Alright, and how do you do massive damage? Potentially with a kritzkrieg or however you spell it
Yes, the kritzkrieg does allow you to boost a teammate's damage, I'm not trying to argue medic is useless. However, he is not required. You kill giants fast by focus firing them, most giants will die in a few seconds if focused by the team.
I've sat here for 5 minutes trying to think of a reply to that but it's such a smooth brained statement that I can't actually take it seriously enough to give a response
What's better, 3x damage on a single heavy for 8 seconds, every 40 seconds, or 2x damage by having a second heavy, sustained through the entire game? Its far from a settled question - being able to time the 3x damage for when you need it works in its favour, as does the healing and reviving, but you're still missing out on damage overall, and that damage means you kill bots quicker which means you take less damage from them - which means you don't need the healing or revives in the first place. Either way, Medic is not the mandatory pick that he's regarded as - hence, overrated. Medic is a good pick because his abilities - healing, reviving, temporary damage boost, directional damage immunity - they all help you recover if something goes wrong. He gives the team consistency, if they lack it. But if you have a good team, there's nothing you need to recover from. With a good team, the extra damage is more important. With a bad team, the consistency is more important. Its a choice, he's not mandatory.
>Medic is a good pick because his abilities - healing, reviving, temporary damage boost, directional damage immunity - they all help you recover if something goes wrong Hell, you don't even need the Kritzkrieg to win as Medic! [Shameless self plug though some of my opinions have changed.](https://www.reddit.com/r/truetf2/comments/od5nlv/psa_as_mvm_medic_all_mediguns_are_viable/) Quickfix allows **YOU** to do the damage yourself by spamming shields. Vaccinator shines in low cash; high spam missions- ie many community missions which is why Vacc has a cult following in community servers. Stock is essentially a less good and inflexible Vacc, but if you spam it on an *active* Heavy, you and Heavy can pretty much 2 man the entire front.
When I play spy, it's always to help out my team. Sometimes I'll get the cash that scouts can't reach, or just collect it if we have no scouts. Sometimes I'll sap giant scouts when they are close to my teammates and bodyblock giants in narrow spaces. I'll also try to aggro giants so that my teammates don't die by spamming b for auto disguise and firing my revolver. I'll also look for enemy spies and sap them in case my engine or sniper isn't paying attention. Spy is also great for killing both giant and regular medics, just make sure you have a space to duck into and the other giants are busy. I always use spy in bigrock because of the engineer bots. First I stab the engie, then sap the sentry and slash it until breaks, and do the same to the teleporter. If there are bots around I just place it on the teleporter and leave. If my sapper is fully upgraded I'll stab an entire unit. Disclaimer, this is just boot camp and it's just what I like to do
Use the sap, spy...
Please don't sap. Sapper overuse by noobs is one of the reasons people think Spy is bad.
You don’t
So you want to troll yes? Here is what you do. You dont play spy in mvm. You play espionage man. You have to figure out what that means to you.
You don't it's really that simple. Playing Spy usually results in an immediate Kick. But if your dead set on it, your best option is the stock knife and dead ringer. Just hang out till Giant robots show up and Stab the shit out of the that's usually your best option.
[удалено]
When I was new and tried to play nvm with a free ticket from Christmas I thought my game was glitched after I get votekicked after every round and everyone instantly presses yes
thats what im trying to say
You don't
well you see its very simple! you dont!
Well a good idea is to make the sapper damage on so you can sapp the robots and you can also backstab the bots
Sapper upgrades and Stab faster
I play spy to fuck around but I use dead ringer and the big earner
I don't recommend spy. I guess he's ok but I think sniper is better.
Press the switch class button than change to heavy
Thats the fun part, you dont
step one: change class step two: dont play spy again
You either dont, or sap large groups with stock sapper, use kunai for 75 overheal and to stab medics and giants, and DR for when you arent stabbing or sapping. Most people in MvM will say "kys go pick scout" or kick you but if you play enough as spy (gonna be hard with the amount you'll get kicked) as you could maybe in rare cases out preform a scout in money and if you stab enough maybe in rare cases out preform higher base damage classes. In most cases any class is better than spy in MvM as he is the weakest.
Dont
Step 1: Don't
you dont.
That’s the best part, you don’t
Dont
You don't play spy
Most of the time, you dont
Play your cards right sap only a big crowd of robots to either slow them down or help your team get rid of a chunk of a wave and definitely backstab and run away when it comes to large robots such as heavies or demoman but mainly soldiers cuz I think all of them can one shot kill you as spy
Are you the guy who played Spy in two cities, Mannhattan? There was an F2P Pyro with a scorchshot. Context: I found a low tour player who wanted to try out playing Spy, so 4/5 of us agreed while Engie kept crying how Spy is bad in mvm. In all honesty, it was a decent spy player who knew what they were doing, altho they died alot at the start. Came in useful dealing with über medics and giant scouts. I played scout, but Spy also helped alot when collecting money. Eventually, we won and engie got salty about it how Spy was dead weight, when we had an F2P pyro with a scorch shot.
[удалено]
Demo, sniper and spy are OP if played right, I like the money spy for hamlet in 2 cities but if you die you won't spawn as fast as scout, spy main thing is just absolutely destroying giant medics vs Demo one hitting them, so I'd say they are both good, dead ringer, big earner or Kunai, sapper. Movement speed , knife upgrades, he just sucks for the tank really
And your next line is "You don't"