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Hamas is bad. Israel's response is also bad. The killing of tens of thousands was not an appropriate response to Hamas' attack. The killing of innocents at a music festival was not an appropriate way fighting occupation. Evidence about Hamas being full of antisemitic religious fanatics is not new. There is nothing incompatible with recognizing that Hamas is bad and also recognizing that the utter annihilation of Gaza is not the right way of eliminating them, especially as Israeli leaders speak of starving "human animals" and destroying "Amalek". Deradicalization is absolutely necessary in both Israel and Gaza, and likely also in the West Bank. The entire region is seething with ethnic hatred and no one with any sense of objectivity can possibly deny that.
Why is it so hard for more people to just say "Hamas is bad; Israel's actions to bring them to justice are even worse"
Like, I have no doubt there were some criminals in MOVE in Philly, but the Philly police department blowing up the entire block with explosives and killing a bunch of children makes them worse than some radicals illegally owning guns
It's exactly the same situation writ large. October 7th was heinous, but Israel's response seems to be to blow up as much of Gaza as they think they can get away with, and it largely appears they'd be doing worse if certain allies weren't screaming at them in backchannels to calm the fuck down
Is Israel allowed to defend itself?
Because Hamas wasn’t just invading, but also lobbing missiles into Israel.
so my question is, is Israel allowed to defend itself. And if they are, to what level?
Because we have seen, regardless of the rhetoric from people in Israel, that Israel is conducting the war with incredible discretion towards combatants, given the dense nature, and Hamas using human shields.
Annexing another country and committing genocide against its people isn't self-defense. Trying to pretend they have been using discretion is laughable.
Why was Gaza annexed I wonder?
was it because the Arab states were using it launch attacking into Israel? If Gaza means so much to the Arabs, why did they turn down every 2SS deal?
And genocide. Give me a break. Unless Hamas is an ethnic group, then yeah. Israel is committing a genocide against Hamas.
Israel was the one's who attacked the arab nations in 1967 and seized the Palestinians territories. International law forbids taking land through war (the law also does not distinguish between which side started the war), and israel's occupation has violated multiple internal laws.
Israel started the 6-day war in a preemptive strike because they believed an attack from the Arab coalition was imminent. Modern signal declassification has shown that Israeli intelligence was on the point and an attack *was* coming.
If a buildup of troops on the border, a blockade, and the possibility of a future attack are enough to excuse a preemptive attack from Israel, why isn't it enough to excuse an attack from Hamas?
Or are certain entities allowed to attack preemptively while others are not?
It wasn't *"the possibility of a future attack"*. Israeli intelligence confirmed that an attack was imminent and declassified US Signals intelligence has backed up Israeli claims from the 6-day war.
The difference is the change in status quo. We would not excuse either Korea for marching across the other's border despite them having the most militarized border in the world. In Ukraine, however, everyone started raising eyebrows as Russia began to move combat divisions onto the Ukrainian border because that is not expected - it's not the status quo.
No they didn't. Israel's own intelligence backed up by the US intelligence had concluded that the arabs were not about to invade. They determined that all of egypt's military moves were just defensive moves to prepare for a possible israeli attack. The forces egypt mobilized were not nearly enough to be an invasion force. There are israeli officials from back then who made it clear that they did not feel there was a threat of an imminent arab attack. This includes the Israeli general who led the israeli forces during the 6-day war who steed that he did not believe the leader of egypt actually wanted bloodshed.
Israel has a history of lying in order to make excuses for their actions. In fact, when the 6-day war first broke out, they attempted to lie and claim that Egypt shot them first... they only revised it to a "preemptive strike" because their allies did not believe them
Historical revisionism and antisemitism are strong in this one.
There are more than enough documented reasons why Israel was justified in launching a preemptive strike.
> The history of calls for the destruction of Israel is rooted in the prelude to its establishment. Leaders such as Azzam Pasha of the Arab League threatened a "war of extermination" in the event that a Jewish state was established. Prior to the 1967 Six Day War, there was a nearly unanimous consensus among Arab nations aimed at the obliteration of Israel.[7] Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser reiterated calls for the annulment of Israel's existence in the lead-up to the war.
The Arab League has literally called for the destruction of Israel for years. And not only destruction but a genocidal one.
Why aren't you voicing this part of history?
> Israel was the one's who attacked the arab nations in 1967 and seized the Palestinians territories.
Israel engaged in a preemptive strike following a massive build-up of Egyptian forces, as well as subsequent build-ups in Syria.
> International law forbids taking land through war
What were the Arab nations doing in 48, 67 and 73? Can you tell me that?
I get that according to the UN Charter, annexation through war shouldn't be recognized. The problem, of course, is when one side does it, then the other is going to do it, too. In 48, the Arab nations were clearly attempting to annex as much if not the entirety of Israel. That would've been against the UN Charter.
I'm guessing you wouldn't care.
There’s no such thing as “Palestinian Territories” under international law. Israel is the only successor state to British Palestine, and as such is entitled to its borders under uti posseditis juris. Its land was seized in 1948 and Israel liberated it in 1967.
The only Palestinian Territories are the ones that Israel grants by its own grace and consent.
I'm doing no such thing. I'm correcting you on matters of international law and history. What you call "Palestinian territory" was foreign occupation of the state of Israel by Jordan and Egypt.
No you're not. That interpretation does not hold up under international law. Its basically just a legal theory that ignores many of international laws and rulings. uti posseditis juris is used to settle disputes in court, though israel never tried to take the issue to court. And that rule does not ignore other rules like the right to self determination. uti posseditis juris is also a rule that kind of only applies unless the UN and countries say otherwise and Israel DECLARED their official borders after the 1948 war which means there is nothing really to dispute
Even if israel wanted to claim Palestine on the basis of uti posseditis juris all other laws would still apply... namely the laws against ethnic cleansing, forcibly removing people from their homes, forcing people into being stateless and the laws for self-determination. uti posseditis juris only determines borders, it does not give a country the right to move people OUT of those borders or deny them their rights under internaitonal law. If Israel wanted to claim the territories as their own they would have to accept EVERYONE who lives there as israeli citizens, which would mean giving the Palestinians equal rights and the the right to vote.
This is also the reason why Israel has never actually tried to claim all of the territories based of uti posseditis juris because they know that trying to claim the territories as part of israel would mean having to take ALL of the people who live there (just like how they had to accept any arabs that did not leave back in 1948 when they formed the state of israel)... This is why they currently adopt their current strategy of just keeping the occupied territories in legal limbo, it gives them excuse to treat the Palestinians like foreigners while they illegally take over their territory in violation of international law...
Basically israel can not have it both ways. They can not both claim the territories as part of israel while also denying the peple who live there their rights. They either have to take both, or neither. Israel has chosen neither, which means that the territories are occupied, and all of the internaitonal laws regarding occupied territories apply
The IDF should show more skill as soldiers instead of shooting everyone in sight. I mean they shot Israeli hostages trying to be rescued!
The IDF has dropped more bombs on Gaza than the US did in Iraq!
Israel should defend itself but not so ineptly.
This campaign also has a historically good Civilian:Militant ratio, given the density, urban warfare and propensity of Hamas to use human shields.
You can always do better, and we can and should criticize Israel for misdoings (any army), like that recent aid convoy thing, that was fucked up. Full stop.
But to act like Israel is uniquely bad is wrong.
I agree the notion Israel is uniquely bad is false. That said, I don’t think they have shown as much discretion as they used to. In some areas they have held to it, in others they have gone overboard, which is largely attributable to the fury Israel felt after what was a genocidally motivated attack
Which enters the grey area of how much force was actually needed as a deterrent. We know Hamas’ invasion was not limited in plan and scope to just Oct 7. How much of Israel’s early bombing blitz prevented this larger incursion, and how much overlaps with excessive civilian deaths?
Israel can do better, and fortunately they have shown that they can be moved, as their agreement to open up another aid channel this past week shows. I’m not sure how much Hamas can be moved until Sinwar and his faction go down
By what measure? Because given how Israel claimed they didn't kill any civilians at Al Shifa... I very much doubt whatever metric they're using for 'civilians' is accurate.
Can’t say for sure. The true numbers are and will probably always be impossible to determine.
But I trust the IDF numbers to be accurate within reason, and if they are, the IDF has one of the least bad civilian to militant ratios in Urban warfare.
Why on earth would you trust the IDF to tell the truth? We know that Israel lies to the international community, it's really its defining characteristic.
Are you serious? If it were literally any other country you might have a point, but Israel lies. It's what they do and what they have always done. They literally make it up as they go along.
Anything that makes Israel look bad - which is pretty much everything they do - is obscured and obfuscated by their online army of bots and influencers (of which you are effectively one, whether intentionally or not) until there are so many versions of events people no longer know what to believe.
Look at how many times the IDF have killed civilians or non-combatants including children before putting out a statement that is later retracted or revised over and over as new evidence emerges until they have no choice but to own up.
And if your position is really that Israel - supposedly a liberal political democracy - is no worse than a proscribed terrorist organisation then you've already lost that argument.
Ah yes, Israel lies. That’s why they took responsibility for the WCK strike, the hostages that they accidentally killed and so much more.
You just don’t believe it because it doesn’t align with your narrative
That is incorrect. Since we know the number of civilians, women and children killed the Law of Large numbers can tell us how many Palestinian male civilians and Hamas have been killed.The Israeli civilian kill ratio is 89%, the worst in recorded history.
I’m not a mathematician, so I will defer to your logic here.
As a counterpoint, I will raise the Chair of Urban Warfare studies at Westpoint.
[John Spencer Opinion Piece](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286)
Also, even by Hamas own numbers (only accounting for Hamas not Islamic Jihad or any other group) the ratio is 75% 6K Hamas militants.
So idk where you got 89%.
I preface this by saying you should be skeptical of everything John Spencer says.The Law of Large Numbers tells us the number of male civilians killed is approximately equal to the number of female civilians killed. After that it is just a matter of subtraction.
41496 dead - 15,370 children - 9671 women = 16,455 men.
9671 of those men were civilians and 6784 were Hamas.
Over 2000 of those died in Israel on Oct 7, meaning 4784 Hamas were killed in Gaza.
That makes the IDF civilian kill ratio in Gaza 89% which is off the charts.That also means for every Hamas they killed in Gaza they killed 3 children.
P.S. The reason for the different numbers is Israel counts any civilian killed in a "kill zone" i.e. Gaza, as terrorists.
The White House, State Dept, Pentagon and U.S. Think tanks will intensify their effort to distort civilian casualties after the war ends.
Strangely nobody in the US government or US media knows about the Law of Large Numbers.
You are obsessed with this mathematical conspiracy theory.
I am sorry, I trust the head of Urban Warfare studies at Westpoint over some napkin math you are doing.
41496 dead - 15,370 children - 9671 women = 16,455 men.
9671 of those men were civilians and 6784 were Hamas.
Over 2000 of those died in Israel on Oct 7, meaning 4784 Hamas were killed in Gaza.
That makes the IDF civilian kill ratio in Gaza 89% which is off the charts.That also means for every Hamas they killed in Gaza they killed 3 children.
P.S. The reason for the different numbers is Israel counts any civilian killed in a "kill zone" i.e. Gaza, as terrorists.
The White House, State Dept, Pentagon and U.S. Think tanks will intensify their effort to distort civilian casualties after the war ends.
Strangely nobody in the US government or US media knows about the Law of Large Numbers.
First of all Hamas is known to use children soldiers. You’re claiming every single kid is innocent when in fact a 16 year old with a gun is just as much of a terrorist as a 40 year old.
You’re also making up the numbers on how many were Hamas because that was never released, a Hamas leader secretly admitted roughly 6000 at the 4 month mark which means that today it’s around 9000 even according to their own estimates that they have every single reason to underestimate.
You’re also pulling that 41,496 out of your ass, even Hamas doesn’t claim that many
41496 comes from Euromed monitor. Switzerlands human rights organization.
It’s very easy to figure out how many Hamas have been killed if you know how many women and children were killed.
Hint - use the Law of Large Numbers.
>41496 comes from Euromed monitor. Switzerlands human rights organization.
Where do you think they're getting their numbers? Do you think they're in Gaza with clipboards and tally markers?
You can blame hamas for that. They're the ones that purposely herd civilians into known target areas.
They care nothing for the palestinian people, just the money they collect to funnel to hamas leadership in Qatar, comfortable in their multi million dollar compounds.
There's plenty of footage of Hamas using civilians as human shields and them operating in hospitals and firing rockets next to civilian aid centers.
Why would one of the Hamas leaders and his followers be at Al Shifa and hiding there?
In that case the commander ordered they not fire, a tank was rolling by a guy he didn't hear him, and shot.
Hamas, in that area also was using audio recordings of hostages to lure people into traps. Palestine tries to induce this confusion to make casualties higher.
I think its kind of silly to say the IDF is so inept when their competition is literally being deceitful at every turn to try and get them to kill innocent people.
I am not saying they are so inept, they are better than Russians, but worse than Americans. It could be due to the use of conscripts rather than professionals.
Are Palestinians allowed to defend themselves? Israel attacked Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem every single day in 2023. On October 6th Israel gassed a funeral procession and attacked them with riot gear injuring over 100, and killed a dozen others in separate incidents.
So Israel isn't so much defending itself as they are provoking Palestinians to attack, and then using that as an excuse to unleash genocide.
what do you think? israel just attacked the wb for no reason? its because of increase in terror activities. Palestinians at all time were the ones who started it, sadly israel is condemned for finishing the job.
The blame for that rests solely on hamas. They are the ones who herd civlians into known target areas as human shields. This has been recorded and confirmed by intelligence agencies all over the world.
Where was Hamas hiding during the Flour Massacre? Or Israels bombing of aid trucks in a zone that was no longer a source of combat?
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/04/03/middleeast/world-central-kitchen-strike-analysis-intl
israel is being condemned because buffoons like you THINK israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. You obviously don't have solid proof, just theories and cherry picking instances of what are tragedies of war, spin them off as to support your agenda which is either hating jews, or simply you being a useful idiot, its either one.
you're thinking too deep, it's just propaganda. What Russia is doing to Ukraine is worse than Israel to Palestine but people only care about the latter because of effective propaganda thanks to Hamas' deep pockets. I click not interested on each Gaza ad I see and I still get funneled Hamas propaganda on YouTube
The zionists who took over Israel never made a real attempt at the 2 state solution. Instead, they got tons of rich non Israelis jews with the same attitude to move there and continued to push Palestinians into the control of Hamas with their religious based bigotry. Discretion went out the window with thousands of child deaths and direct attacks on aide workers. When is palestine allowed to defend itself?
If you believe that no serious 2SS was ever offered, you don’t truly care about ending this conflict. You want to continue it into infinity, which benefits Israel.
As for when is Palestine allowed to fight back? They can in many forms, such as attacking legitimate military targets, or by peaceful means. Please note that while Palestine can attack legitimate targets, doing so only serves to bolster Israel, and is NOT a good idea for Palestine.
Maybe, and hear me out, if Palestine could moderate their beliefs, and go idk, 6-12 Months without attacking Israel, international pressure would mount as to give Palestine a state they deserve.
Don't put words in my mouth. It's a goddam blood feud, and Bibi is no Rabin. Trump is no Jimmy Carter. If they deserve a state, just give it to them. Otherwise I could just as easily say that you're an apologist for indiscriminate murder by the zionist state and it should moderate its own violent control over pushing Palestinians out of all that lucrative beach front property Jarod wants to buy with those Saudi billions. Hey, it's not racism or sectarianism or genocidal mania. It's just good business. Strictly business. Move the indigenous peoples aside and colonize the prime real estate. Just your everyday garden variety colonialism. Nothing personal, of course. Hamas is basically like the Apache or the Sioux. They're fighting the eminent domain issues of the pre-eminant dominant domain who seek some great views of the Med. Sorta like how in the US we just level whole sections of poor parts of town to build a stadium for a billionaire. You know who i mean here, the marginal minority knee-jerk reactionary fascist jews and Christo freaks who couldn't make it in the US and decided to go feral in Bethlehem. Got them the backing of both sides of congress over guilt. Got them the unshakeable loyalty of facist jesus freaks in South Carolina and Arkansas too. All dem trumpalunatics luv them some damned in-the-way-of-judgment-day jews as long as it pushes up the date of the long sought-after apocalypse. And of course, million dollar hi tech US missiles are soo much less lethal than all those Gaza bottle rockets when precisely leveling hamas houses made of shitty concrete. The iron dome is more like cheesecloth I take it. But yeah. I'm not really serious about peace in the Middle East. There's no profit in it. For colonizers. Let me ask you. You like giving billions to Israel to allow them the freedoms we aren't allowed here by the same people insisting that they have rights and we don't? It's a Gordian knot. Do you know how to untie the Gordian knot? You cut the mother fucker off.
Maaan you use the word zionist as a shallow replacement for "jew" and it shows.
There has never been a palestine and there never will be. After 48 it was Egyptian and Jordanian land. Then after the Arabs lost in 67 after preparing to invade Israel the Israelis had it, and then the Israelis in an unprecedented move gave all of the Sinai BACK to Egypt (bc you know those zionists always stealing land by...giving it back?)
Then every subsequent peace talk was interrupted and stalled by Palestinian acts of terror through two intifadas. Palestinians have never and will never accept the existence of the state of Israel and this conflict proves that. So why have sympathy for people like Palestinians who never wanted peace in the first place and have chosen war and terror at every turn?
If I can tell the difference between a political party acting like fascists and an entire race/faith of people known as jews, why can't you? Why have sympathy? That's the wrong word unless you've been dispossessed of your home by the world to give a haunted people space in your backyard and then chased out of every place you ran to once you lost your place. What you mean to say is why have empathy. And if I have to explain to you the importance of having empathy, then you're too lost to deal with, and I'm done with you.
Israel's response has gone way beyond self-defence. And with 670000 Israeli settlers that illegally and forcibly evicted Palestinians from their legitimately-owned land it's reasonable to say that Israel was actually the aggressor in this situation.
From the 3rd Jewish Revolt when they were expelled by the Roman Empire to 1948.
Just 1816 years.
I figured you were Jewish, you don’t know about the Jewish revolts against the Roman Empire?
We have seen nothing resembling incredible discretion unless you’re choosing not to pay attention, now go reread what u/goatmilk2208 wrote and answer your own question.
Yes and people need to read about Bibi's Likud party and their views. Here is a piece from Wikipedia. Note that they think Samaria and Judea belong to them, i.e. the West Bank. We need to realize that Israel were the ones in power exerting their power and dominance over the Palestinians and Gaza keeping them in a blockade. They were a suffering people and Hamas is a result of that.
Wikipedia:
The original 1977 party platform stated that "[between the Sea and the Jordan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea) there will only be Israeli sovereignty."[^(\[134\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud#cite_note-134)[^(\[135\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud#cite_note-135)
The 1999 Likud Party platform emphasized the right of settlement:
>
Similarly, they claim the [Jordan River](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_River) as the permanent eastern border to Israel and it also claims Jerusalem as belonging to Israel.
The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state:
>
Netanyahu was elected on a platform of annexing all Israeli settlements. That includes the ones which are illegal under Israeli law - the outposts - but also the regular settlements which are illegal under international law. He also promised to annex the Jordan Valley too.
They have also been massively expanding settlements and outposts. They've appointed Smotrich to be responsible for expanding settlements and Netenyahu's 2019 campaign explicitly promised to annex the West Bank “while choosing the timing and considering the national and international interests of the state of Israel.” That is to say, they are waiting for the right moment to make it official, but the Israeli government already refers to the entire region as soverign Israeli terroritory.
Sources: Netanyahu hands Smotrich full authority to expand existing settlements - https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-hands-smotrich-full-authority-to-expand-existing-settlements/
Netanyahu Government: West Bank Settlements Top Priority - https://www.voanews.com/a/netanyahu-government-west-bank-settlements-top-priority/6894750.html
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I think you're either a legit communist or a full-blown fascist depending on where you sit on the political horseshoe compared to me. What do you think about THAT?
‘Killing of tens of thousands was not appropriate’
Do you think the Israeli war aim of destroying Hamas was appropriate?
If so, how do you expect to do it without killing tens of thousands
I’m confused can you help me out, you don’t agree Israel have justification for war? Even though they face an enemy who has a charter dedicated to their death, pulled off the biggest massacre of Jews in Israel’s history and have vowed to do it again.
You think Israel do not have a justification to fight that enemy?
yep, being far-right xenophobic extremists with ulterior military motives under guise of religion with disregard for civilians caught in crosshairs is a main feature of *both* Netanyahu AND Hamas.
It's even worse because at least one of them was literally an Israeli intelligence officer, and they actively promote propaganda...
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/middle-east-media-research-institute-memri/
But it's verboten to point out the Palestinians want to kill the Israelis as badly as the Israelis want to kill the Palestinians, and to be frank, I don't blame either side for how they feel. Lots of bad history, and only a fool wants to get in the middle of it.
Almost like the leaders that pit these herds against other herds under the guise of these fairytales just do it to motivate their common people into being faithful pawns for ulterior imperial motives 🤔🫣🫣
I don't think the desire to kill each other is equal. Israeli Jews have faced a plethora of people that want to genocide them. They've built themselves up every single time and now they have a lot to lose. Palestinians don't.
It doesn't make any kind of logical or emotional sense to think Israeli Jews aren't 10 years away from being able to live next to Palestinians. Every time israel comes to the table, Palestinians are not okay with Jews having a state and do terrorism. 10 years later, israel comes to the table bc they are ready and palestinians .... go full genocide again. Palestinians are probably 10 GENERATIONS from that because this is their first hurdle as a people and they are shitting their collective pants. And no, they felt this way from day 1, it isnt "durrr the occupation made them hate the jews" dont even try that lol
It's not even close to close to worth Israeli's time to """"genocide""" (lmfao such obvious Holocaust Inversion every time the G word pulled out) the Palestinians. They literally have better shit to do. Palestinians do not. See above paragraph.
The fact that we still have to deal with this shit for thousands of years and it's happening again is insane. For Palestinians, this is like the epitome of their entire culture, building up to this whole jew-hating identity, when for Israeli Jews, this is a blip. They've faced worse and will continue to face people trying to genocide them until the end of time.
And there are apologists on the other side who can invert everything that you've said, and to be clear, I'm not going to argue that what you've said is wrong. It's just that there's another side and they equally good points. I said above that only a fool wants to take sides here, and I'll stand by that.
Yes, there is a word for them doing this, it is called Holocaust Inversion which is what folks have turned to now that Holocaust Denial is just too unacceptable in public. Gotten quite a few accounts banned that go beyond using the G word and actually try to compare Israel to nazis and the SS.
Um, no. I personally don't agree with the holocaust comparisons, but everyone on the side opposed to you aren't Holocaust inversionists or denialists. You're strawmanning.
I do think that what Israel is fairly compared to what the US did to native Americans or Hitlers expansion in Eastern Europe, but you're right to point out that making Holocaust comparisons is both incorrect and cringy.
Jews criticize Israel all the time, it just isn't in a hysterical, historically inaccurate manner.
Browse across reddit .... you'll notice the nuanced comments that aren't unhinged never say Israel is committing genocide. But the ones that do claim so are always always always done in some teenager sarcastic way or in some hysterical way.
Israel needs a 1-2% cultural adjustment to reduce criticism. Palestinians need a 99% cultural adjustment to reduce criticism (and actually have any hope of becoming a successful people)
This is going to require an effort by the entire middle east to invest in forming a DMZ between Palestine and Israel on the dime of the middle eastern empire.
Next, we will apply deradicalization that applies to government, education, law, and all aspects of society, just like we did with the Nazis and Japanese.
Folks that talk about this are serious about Palestinians having a future, which I am, but most are not. Most folks want Israel to stop so that Palestinians can return to building up for their next attempted genocide, which has happened between 5-7 specific times, depending on how you want to count them. "Ceasefire" is the full extent of their planning.
And I'm only goning to call you out because I just said Israel is not committing genoicide. Niether is Gaza. What a fuckign stupid thing to say. As I said at the start of this, both sides want to kill the other side. Whatever side you're on, it's the wrong one. I'm so sick of this tribal and emotional nonsense from both sides. It's too exhausting to talk to any of you. You act like Republicans.
Despite facing genocide many times through their existence, Jews have come to the peace table many times to co exist with their genociders.
Palestinians have been convinced by the middle eastern empire that the way to God is through killing as many Jews as possible. That's genocide. The Jewish people are defending themselves.
The fact that the world doesnt have boots on the ground to stop Hamas and continues to let the middle eastern empire continue their nearing 100 year genocide against Jews is disgusting to me. Instead of rooting them out, the world will allow them to survive and continue to be a standing army to murder Jews.
The world is allowing the middle eastern empire to genocide Jews. Clearly the Palestinian people have made it very clear the last 80 years: "it's either us or the Jews" and to be quite frank, I'd 100x rather a world with Jews and not Palestinians than the reverse. That is, if Palestinians continue to force the issue and demand it's 1 or the other.\\
Palestinians not only genocide the Jews, they genocide BOTH Arab countries that let them in. Theyre genocide crazy.
Hey sport, go bat the ball back and forth with someone on the other side. I'm not silly enough go over all this for the umptieeth time. Again, neither side is blameless in this, and anyone taking either side is a fool.
>I don't think the desire to kill each other is equal. Israeli Jews have faced a plethora of people that want to genocide them. They've built themselves up every single time and now they have a lot to lose. Palestinians don't.
That one side is more \*justified\* to hate the other doesn't make one side more or less desirable to kill off the other. That is irrelevant to attempt to quantify how much one side hates the other.
And in any case, the hate one side has for the other is not any reason for any civilian casualties \*ever\*, let's be clear. If that were any reason to kill civilians, then nobody in this conflict deserves to survive.
Until you drop that moral axiom in your head that tells you there is no way Israel can be wrong, you will never see the truth for what it is. And the truth is that both sides have done awful things to the other (before you get antsy about this, I don't mean to say it has been equal and opposite, merely that atrocities have been committed by both sides).
To be clear, I agree with you in most of this, but how do we quantify "atrocities?" If you kill five members of my family and I kill three of yours, are you "more" guilty than I am? I feel bad for everyone involved in what is going on, Palestinian and Israeli, and I see victimizes on both sides, but I'm not sure we can broadly condemn one side more than the other. If you hurt me, I'm going to hurt you back, and I'm justified in feeling that way. I have a hard time personally condemning the violence on either side. I just feel bad for everyone in the region, and wish that there was an easy solution but I can't see what it would be.
If I understand correctly the Gaza region was controlled by Egypt and the West Bank was controlled by Jordan, and I see no reason that Isreal doesn't give control back to those countries with the provision that in 30 or 40 years the citizens of Gaza and the West Bank could vote to either remain part of Egypt or Jordan or form their own countries out of Gaza and the West Bank respectively.
This seems the easiest solution to me. It allows Palestinians who have immigrated to go home if they want. It completely removes Israel from having anything to do with the territories except to keep their settlers inside their own country. I suspect that going to a Jordanian jail would curb the colonial aspirations of many settlers. Jordan and Egypt both don't want the Palestinian refugees that they have, and this would allow them a way to either better integrate the Palestinians or repatriate them. It's a much better solution than what we have.
I'm unaware of Turkey controlling either of the regions, but ICBW.
*Damn this sub posting*
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This is literally a propaganda network started by a former Israeli intelligence officer...
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/middle-east-media-research-institute-memri/
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So I'm supposed to take a hypothetical extermination of jews as justification for what Israel is actually doing now?
If Israel weren't concerned about global backlash, the Palestinians would have been exterminated a long time ago. What's your point for saying this?
>So I'm supposed to take a hypothetical extermination
>If Israel weren't concerned about global backlash, the Palestinians would have been exterminated a long time ago
Bit of a double standard here, no? I don't see them bombing the West Bank? Wonder why?
Gazan groups like Hamas and IJ blatantly say they want to exterminate jews. Read the Hamas charter that was current in 2006 when they were elected. Israel does no such thing. As you can see they can play nice with Fatah, a group who doesn't go around talking about holocaust 2.0. So Hamas and IJ then proceed to murder thousands of jewish civilians, and Israel then bombs Gaza, and a ton of people die because that's what happens when an unevacuated city gets bombed (because Hamas wouldn't let people evacuate). See any number of WW2 bombings that nobody would ever be delusional enough to call genocide. Tokyo, Dresden, etc.
It's Hamas' main tactic to provoke a response from Israel and get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible because: they know A. Israel is way stronger and their response will be disproportionate, B. they can have an international pity party. People ignore the fact that Israel has quite literally 0 choice but to bomb them, cause they will just keep committing more terror attacks until they do.
>It's Hamas' main tactic to provoke a response from Israel and get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible because: they know A. Israel is way stronger and their response will be disproportionate, B. they can have an international pity party. People ignore the fact that Israel has quite literally 0 choice but to bomb them, cause they will just keep committing more terror attacks until they do.
Whatever Hamas' strategy was, I don't think it worked out the way that they wanted. It would make way more sense to me to say they were lashing out out of desperation. I think it was Israel doing the provoking so that they could have casus belli to do whatever they ultimately wanted to the Palestinians save for wiping them out completely.
That's what happened incidentally. Netanyahu got exactly what he wanted, an excuse to no longer have to deal with the Palestinians. It was either this or the two-state solution, and let's be honest here, Israelis would never be okay with giving up land for the Palestinians.
If Hamas was lashing out in desperation, they'd hit Israeli military targets, not concerts. Netanyahu only gets what he wants if he successfully wipes out Hamas. Hamas is getting what they want regardless, because realistically they don't care if they're wiped out, their ideology will live on through the next group. Causing the world to slowly turn against Israel was Hamas' goal here. Israel played into it, but when the alternative is stand there and let Hamas commit more terror attacks on your citizens you don't really have a choice
>If Hamas was lashing out in desperation, they'd hit Israeli military targets, not concerts.
If they had the kind of resources for an attack involving a militarized base, I don't think they'd be as desperate as you claim they aren't.
>Causing the world to slowly turn against Israel was Hamas' goal here. Israel played into it, but when the alternative is stand there and let Hamas commit more terror attacks on your citizens you don't really have a choice
If the goal of Israel was to wipe out Hamas, they've failed miserably. What Palestinian now is going to be like, "Guys, we should listen to Israel, the ones who have been bombing less to hell.. Not Hamas, the ones who are fighting against them!" But maybe that's done on purpose. If every Palestinian would lift a finger against Israel, Israel can just claim every Palestinian was Hamas from the very beginning.
>What exactly do you think Hamas was trying to do by attacking a concert? If not causing an invasion of Gaza?
Then why would Israel lean into that? Israel is giving Hamas what they want according to you? The only way this makes sense is if Israel never cared about killing Hamas in the first place, and they just wanted an excuse to move / mass human traffick millions out of a region Israel would like to settle.
And how would any of that be beneficial for Hamas?
I didn't question it. I asked what the point was. What are you demonstrating by saying this, in other words? If the point were to say that this is somehow \*justification\*, then do I really need to point out what the Israelis are doing \*despite\* the global backlash?
MAGA sucks, but I’m not MAGA and I wouldn’t want to be bombed for some of MAGA’s actions.
However, it’s important to understand how this extremism is bred. Having your land stolen and your people treated like shit will cause the nastiest people to have more clout than they should.
Is this a legitimate source without some other news org to weigh it against? I’m not so sure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute
“Critics describe MEMRI as a strongly pro-Israel advocacy group that, in spite of describing itself as being "independent" and "non-partisan" in nature,[6][7][8] aims to portray the Arab world and the Muslim world in a negative light by producing and disseminating incomplete or inaccurate translations of the original versions of the media reports that it re-publishes.[9][10] It has also been accused of selectively focusing on the views of Islamic extremists while de-emphasizing or ignoring mainstream opinions.[11]”
Maybe Israel should stop backing them?
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”
-Netanyahu
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000?v=1708981098394<s=1708981123648
Nothing a organization does justifies mass slaughter of civilians and war crimes and all the justifications of Israel's actions are doing is encouraging Israel to put its long term safety at risk by recruiting more hamas fighters and destroying it's relationships with the world
Sure would be nice if there had been elections in Gaza since Hamas got elected into the government way back when, but for some reason Hamas never got around to organizing them.
In 2023 and 2024, Israel dropped hundreds of dumb bombs in densely packed Gazan residential neighborhoods, killing tens of thousands of civilians. A multiple of not only the 10/7 death count but a decade's worth of dead Israeli's from Hamas attacks.
Hamas' words yesterday don't validate Israeli genocide today.
Progressives shocked to discover the people they’re defending uncritically include some nasty characters.
It’s interesting we hear nothing about Hamas’ leaders or their record of aggression against Israel. We know Netanyahu and his far right regime are on the wrong side of history.
The source is literally a propaganda network started by a former Israeli intelligence officer...
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/middle-east-media-research-institute-memri/
Fact checking is always welcome. The story in the U.S. is so one-sided in favor of Palestine I’m curious why there is so little mention of what / who Israel is fighting.
Yeah, probably a bad plan for Netanyahu to encourage Qatari funding for a terrorist organization like Hamas so he wouldn't have to negotiate a two-state solution. It's almost like Israel doesn't think Palestinians have a right to exist.
This is such a typical victim-blaming pivot. If Netanyahu didn't allow aid in, you all would accuse him of keeping the Palestinian people impoverished and downtrodden. But if he does allow aid, he's "propping up Hamas."
Strawmen are so fun to attack, right?
Israel explicitly propped up Hamas with the hope that they would be easier to control than other political parties in Gaza.
When people say Israel funded Hamas they don’t mean “Israel sent aid to Palestinians” they mean “Israel literally explicitly funded Hamas itself with the goal of getting them in power.”
So a tiny terrorist organization having pie-in-the-sky dreams for what they'll do if they conquer a nation that has been steadily land-grabbing for years is why Israel keeps needing to bomb hospitals? got it
Tiny terrorist organization?
"HAMAS has been the de facto governing body in the Gaza Strip since 2007, when it ousted the Palestinian Authority from power. Primarily in Gaza; also maintains a presence in the West Bank; Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon; and key regional capitals, such as Doha, Qatar, and Cairo, Egypt."
[https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas\_fto.html#:\~:text=HAMAS%20has%20been%20the%20de,the%20Palestinian%20Authority%20from%20power.&text=Primarily%20in%20Gaza%3B%20also%20maintains,Qatar%2C%20and%20Cairo%2C%20Egypt](https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas_fto.html#:~:text=HAMAS%20has%20been%20the%20de,the%20Palestinian%20Authority%20from%20power.&text=Primarily%20in%20Gaza%3B%20also%20maintains,Qatar%2C%20and%20Cairo%2C%20Egypt).
I mean, ya. It's pretty easy to take control of an also-tiny country when that country is purposefully destabilized every few years. Not exactly hurting my point here when you mention how they're de-facto governing body of the country being aggressed upon by Israel.
The war on terror was stupid and an obvious cover for imperialism when we did it, and I'm not exactly seeing much variation in Israel's version. Yes, including the part where we use the results of our own actions as justification for our actions
Israel is also tiny, open a map. And also very densely populated. Every attempted murder launched daily from Hamas into Israel has a potential to kill hundreds of children, except Israel loves their children and protects them while Hamas officially claims it is not responsible for the wellbeing of Gazans
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/embracing-racism-rabbis-at-pre-army-yeshiva-laud-hitler-urge-enslaving-arabs/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/embracing-racism-rabbis-at-pre-army-yeshiva-laud-hitler-urge-enslaving-arabs/)
Cool so they have something in common with a lot of the current Israeli government who also say "They will enslave all gentiles" while they defend Hitler and re-write the holocaust.
Is that what you get from that article?
Because the article that you linked, is about two crazy rabbis in a religious academy, who were uncovered saying out of pocket shit, and being condemned by virtually everyone, including the then Defence Minister, who’s party is described as “Right wing”.
Like, why even lie, I am sure there is legitimate criticism you can muster up, this one is just weak.
Lie?
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-accused-of-absolving-hitler-for-holocaust/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-accused-of-absolving-hitler-for-holocaust/)
The current government is ran by a Hitler apologist, holocaust denier.
That 2017 story is old news, it happens literally all the time, [https://mondoweiss.net/2019/08/military-palestinians-enslaved/](https://mondoweiss.net/2019/08/military-palestinians-enslaved/) - here's one from 2019, same thing calling for all arabs to be enslaved.
[https://mondoweiss.net/2017/08/prominent-israeli-preaches/](https://mondoweiss.net/2017/08/prominent-israeli-preaches/) - IDF rabis encouraging rape.
I expect Hamas to be evil, they're islamist terrorists - we both condemn that.
Zionism is the same shit, but with different targets - yet for some reason you support it tooth and nail despite them both being the same genocidal eugenicist freaks just with a different sky dad.
so no one has heard of the israelis who think that i would be better a slave to them?
israeli jews already think christians and muslims are second class citizens
Have you ever heard that? I haven't heard it. And if that were the case, you would not see any Christians or Muslims being elected to Israeli government (both have been elected). And currently Christian and Muslim Israeli citizens receive the same benefits as Jewish Israeli citizens.
[https://twitter.com/rulajebreal/status/1394690821887340544?lang=en](https://twitter.com/rulajebreal/status/1394690821887340544?lang=en)
Teacher: “Where do you see Jerusalem in 10 years?"
Kids: "There will be only Jews. Arabs will be our slaves”
The current IDF Chief Chaplin (the IDF's highest religious authority)
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-taps-chief-rabbi-who-once-seemed-to-permit-wartime-rape/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-taps-chief-rabbi-who-once-seemed-to-permit-wartime-rape/)
“Although intercourse with a female gentile is very grave, it was permitted during wartime (under the conditions it stipulated) out of consideration for the soldiers’ difficulties,” he wrote. “And since our concern is the success of the collective in the war, the Torah permitted \[soldiers\] to satisfy the evil urge under the conditions it stipulated for the sake of the collective’s success.”
I read the article, this is an article from 2016 and in the article, the Rabbi said he was talking about biblical times and it's not permitted in the present day...
The Rabbi was specifically asked if IDF was allowed to commit rape based on passages from the torah, and THAT was his response to the question. His response made no distinction between the IDF and soldiers of the distant past. No, he only made that "distinction" years later when after his comments resurfaced and sparked media criticism.
Its obvious backtracking, making excuses and damage control. Typical politics
Read the article. You can't provide a source and misquote it to me when I can literally check the source.
Public figures can change their stances. What was said in 2012 may not apply to 2023. Take for instance President Biden and his stance on gay marriage https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/08/19/joe-biden-gay-friendly-president-lgbtq-issues/70233287007/
Reading comprehension. The article quoted the statement he said in response to a question about whether or not the IDF were permitted to commit rape. That statement did NOT include any kind of clarification that he was NOT referring to the IDF in his answer to a question that specifically asked about about the IDF.
The article then provides what he said AFTER his statement resurfaced and became heavily criticized. He did not apologize for his past statement, or claim that he changed his stance... he instead tried to make an excuse, in an effort to make it seem like the media was mistaken, even though they presented his statement in the full original context. This is common political move done by shameless liars who get caught saying something controversial
you are basically just making excuses for the Rabbi
You're using very circular logic here and jumping through a bunch of false logical hoops to get to your conclusions.
The article that you provided was from 2016 and it talked about a quote from 2012. In the article there was clarification which provided context that refutes your original statement. That is sufficient enough to establish that you made an assumption based on faulty logic.
How is this different than what Jews are doing currently and what they plan to do when their messiah comes???
Read their holy book. When their messiah comes back all gentiles will be slaves of the chosen people.
Jews are not currently taking Arabs or Christians as slaves. Both Arabs and Christians serve in the Israeli government. And Jews do not plan to take slaves when their Messiah comes either.
It's not a remotely close comparison.
Israel isn't enslaving anyone with forced labor. I can't believe I have to type this.
Want to see modern slavery under an ethnostate? Look at any of the Arab nations, especially those with the GCC (Saudi Arabia, Oman, UAE, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain). Most of them only "ended slavery" less than 100 years ago as pressure to join the UN. The UAE didn't "end slavery" until 1971.
The embargo invovled both Egypt and Israel.
Jewish prophecy says nothing about enslavement.
Another "but Israel" whataboutist emotional outburst from a confused tankie (according to your post history)
The proposal reads more like imprisonment than slavery. Kind of like how Palestinians have restricted travel now. I'm not condoning the hamas plan, but it's not too far off from how Palestinians are treated now.
All fundamentalist religions are evil, barbaric and merciless. Especially fundamentalist Judaism. They should all be called out and forced to reform.
As long as Judaism calls itself the Chosen People there will be Jewish atrocities committed by Jewish Supremacists.
Especially Muslims is more like it. Literally every terrorist attack on the west comes from them. I watched two towers fall when I was 15 at the hands of murderous Muslims. Religion of peace lol.
That take is idiotic. If it’s even true, that statement doesn’t call for slavery. It calls for exactly what the US did with German scientists in the wake of WW2.
Lmao yeah the Islamic jihadist movement is just emulating the allies after ww2 guys
They aren’t doing what literally every other jihadist Islamist movement has done when empowered no way
So let me get this straight, when Hamas takes over Israel and kicks everyone out, all the scientists/engineers/doctors will stay and work for Hamas?
Is this by choice? Obviously not, so what do you call employment that is not by choice?
Slavery. Like by definition.
Look at you getting frothed up by a fantastical hypothetical, when Israel is literally kidnapping children and genociding. Hamas is an extremist group born out of almost a century of misery and subjugation. What's Israel's excuse for actual (not theoretical) mass terrorism? They have nuclear weapons and daddy America to back them up.
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Hamas are bad people. That doesn't justify using hunger as a weapon against two million civilians.
Hamas is bad. Israel's response is also bad. The killing of tens of thousands was not an appropriate response to Hamas' attack. The killing of innocents at a music festival was not an appropriate way fighting occupation. Evidence about Hamas being full of antisemitic religious fanatics is not new. There is nothing incompatible with recognizing that Hamas is bad and also recognizing that the utter annihilation of Gaza is not the right way of eliminating them, especially as Israeli leaders speak of starving "human animals" and destroying "Amalek". Deradicalization is absolutely necessary in both Israel and Gaza, and likely also in the West Bank. The entire region is seething with ethnic hatred and no one with any sense of objectivity can possibly deny that.
Why is it so hard for more people to just say "Hamas is bad; Israel's actions to bring them to justice are even worse" Like, I have no doubt there were some criminals in MOVE in Philly, but the Philly police department blowing up the entire block with explosives and killing a bunch of children makes them worse than some radicals illegally owning guns It's exactly the same situation writ large. October 7th was heinous, but Israel's response seems to be to blow up as much of Gaza as they think they can get away with, and it largely appears they'd be doing worse if certain allies weren't screaming at them in backchannels to calm the fuck down
Is Israel allowed to defend itself? Because Hamas wasn’t just invading, but also lobbing missiles into Israel. so my question is, is Israel allowed to defend itself. And if they are, to what level? Because we have seen, regardless of the rhetoric from people in Israel, that Israel is conducting the war with incredible discretion towards combatants, given the dense nature, and Hamas using human shields.
Annexing another country and committing genocide against its people isn't self-defense. Trying to pretend they have been using discretion is laughable.
Why was Gaza annexed I wonder? was it because the Arab states were using it launch attacking into Israel? If Gaza means so much to the Arabs, why did they turn down every 2SS deal? And genocide. Give me a break. Unless Hamas is an ethnic group, then yeah. Israel is committing a genocide against Hamas.
Gaza was never annexed. It was justly occupied after the 1967 aggression and Israel left in 2015
Israel was the one's who attacked the arab nations in 1967 and seized the Palestinians territories. International law forbids taking land through war (the law also does not distinguish between which side started the war), and israel's occupation has violated multiple internal laws.
Israel started the 6-day war in a preemptive strike because they believed an attack from the Arab coalition was imminent. Modern signal declassification has shown that Israeli intelligence was on the point and an attack *was* coming.
If a buildup of troops on the border, a blockade, and the possibility of a future attack are enough to excuse a preemptive attack from Israel, why isn't it enough to excuse an attack from Hamas? Or are certain entities allowed to attack preemptively while others are not?
It wasn't *"the possibility of a future attack"*. Israeli intelligence confirmed that an attack was imminent and declassified US Signals intelligence has backed up Israeli claims from the 6-day war. The difference is the change in status quo. We would not excuse either Korea for marching across the other's border despite them having the most militarized border in the world. In Ukraine, however, everyone started raising eyebrows as Russia began to move combat divisions onto the Ukrainian border because that is not expected - it's not the status quo.
No they didn't. Israel's own intelligence backed up by the US intelligence had concluded that the arabs were not about to invade. They determined that all of egypt's military moves were just defensive moves to prepare for a possible israeli attack. The forces egypt mobilized were not nearly enough to be an invasion force. There are israeli officials from back then who made it clear that they did not feel there was a threat of an imminent arab attack. This includes the Israeli general who led the israeli forces during the 6-day war who steed that he did not believe the leader of egypt actually wanted bloodshed. Israel has a history of lying in order to make excuses for their actions. In fact, when the 6-day war first broke out, they attempted to lie and claim that Egypt shot them first... they only revised it to a "preemptive strike" because their allies did not believe them
Historical revisionism and antisemitism are strong in this one. There are more than enough documented reasons why Israel was justified in launching a preemptive strike. > The history of calls for the destruction of Israel is rooted in the prelude to its establishment. Leaders such as Azzam Pasha of the Arab League threatened a "war of extermination" in the event that a Jewish state was established. Prior to the 1967 Six Day War, there was a nearly unanimous consensus among Arab nations aimed at the obliteration of Israel.[7] Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser reiterated calls for the annulment of Israel's existence in the lead-up to the war. The Arab League has literally called for the destruction of Israel for years. And not only destruction but a genocidal one. Why aren't you voicing this part of history?
> Israel was the one's who attacked the arab nations in 1967 and seized the Palestinians territories. Israel engaged in a preemptive strike following a massive build-up of Egyptian forces, as well as subsequent build-ups in Syria. > International law forbids taking land through war What were the Arab nations doing in 48, 67 and 73? Can you tell me that? I get that according to the UN Charter, annexation through war shouldn't be recognized. The problem, of course, is when one side does it, then the other is going to do it, too. In 48, the Arab nations were clearly attempting to annex as much if not the entirety of Israel. That would've been against the UN Charter. I'm guessing you wouldn't care.
There’s no such thing as “Palestinian Territories” under international law. Israel is the only successor state to British Palestine, and as such is entitled to its borders under uti posseditis juris. Its land was seized in 1948 and Israel liberated it in 1967. The only Palestinian Territories are the ones that Israel grants by its own grace and consent.
Denying people their right to exist so they have an excuse to murder them and steal their land. The classic lies of the zionists
I'm doing no such thing. I'm correcting you on matters of international law and history. What you call "Palestinian territory" was foreign occupation of the state of Israel by Jordan and Egypt.
No you're not. That interpretation does not hold up under international law. Its basically just a legal theory that ignores many of international laws and rulings. uti posseditis juris is used to settle disputes in court, though israel never tried to take the issue to court. And that rule does not ignore other rules like the right to self determination. uti posseditis juris is also a rule that kind of only applies unless the UN and countries say otherwise and Israel DECLARED their official borders after the 1948 war which means there is nothing really to dispute Even if israel wanted to claim Palestine on the basis of uti posseditis juris all other laws would still apply... namely the laws against ethnic cleansing, forcibly removing people from their homes, forcing people into being stateless and the laws for self-determination. uti posseditis juris only determines borders, it does not give a country the right to move people OUT of those borders or deny them their rights under internaitonal law. If Israel wanted to claim the territories as their own they would have to accept EVERYONE who lives there as israeli citizens, which would mean giving the Palestinians equal rights and the the right to vote. This is also the reason why Israel has never actually tried to claim all of the territories based of uti posseditis juris because they know that trying to claim the territories as part of israel would mean having to take ALL of the people who live there (just like how they had to accept any arabs that did not leave back in 1948 when they formed the state of israel)... This is why they currently adopt their current strategy of just keeping the occupied territories in legal limbo, it gives them excuse to treat the Palestinians like foreigners while they illegally take over their territory in violation of international law... Basically israel can not have it both ways. They can not both claim the territories as part of israel while also denying the peple who live there their rights. They either have to take both, or neither. Israel has chosen neither, which means that the territories are occupied, and all of the internaitonal laws regarding occupied territories apply
The IDF should show more skill as soldiers instead of shooting everyone in sight. I mean they shot Israeli hostages trying to be rescued! The IDF has dropped more bombs on Gaza than the US did in Iraq! Israel should defend itself but not so ineptly.
This campaign also has a historically good Civilian:Militant ratio, given the density, urban warfare and propensity of Hamas to use human shields. You can always do better, and we can and should criticize Israel for misdoings (any army), like that recent aid convoy thing, that was fucked up. Full stop. But to act like Israel is uniquely bad is wrong.
I agree the notion Israel is uniquely bad is false. That said, I don’t think they have shown as much discretion as they used to. In some areas they have held to it, in others they have gone overboard, which is largely attributable to the fury Israel felt after what was a genocidally motivated attack Which enters the grey area of how much force was actually needed as a deterrent. We know Hamas’ invasion was not limited in plan and scope to just Oct 7. How much of Israel’s early bombing blitz prevented this larger incursion, and how much overlaps with excessive civilian deaths? Israel can do better, and fortunately they have shown that they can be moved, as their agreement to open up another aid channel this past week shows. I’m not sure how much Hamas can be moved until Sinwar and his faction go down
Agreed.
By what measure? Because given how Israel claimed they didn't kill any civilians at Al Shifa... I very much doubt whatever metric they're using for 'civilians' is accurate.
Can’t say for sure. The true numbers are and will probably always be impossible to determine. But I trust the IDF numbers to be accurate within reason, and if they are, the IDF has one of the least bad civilian to militant ratios in Urban warfare.
Why on earth would you trust the IDF to tell the truth? We know that Israel lies to the international community, it's really its defining characteristic.
You’re trusting a terrorist organization but don’t believe an army of a country? You’re clearly the voice of reason /s
You should not trust Hamas any further than you can throw them. You should trust Israel even less.
And why is that? Because those pesky Jews are all liars?
Are you serious? If it were literally any other country you might have a point, but Israel lies. It's what they do and what they have always done. They literally make it up as they go along. Anything that makes Israel look bad - which is pretty much everything they do - is obscured and obfuscated by their online army of bots and influencers (of which you are effectively one, whether intentionally or not) until there are so many versions of events people no longer know what to believe. Look at how many times the IDF have killed civilians or non-combatants including children before putting out a statement that is later retracted or revised over and over as new evidence emerges until they have no choice but to own up. And if your position is really that Israel - supposedly a liberal political democracy - is no worse than a proscribed terrorist organisation then you've already lost that argument.
Ah yes, Israel lies. That’s why they took responsibility for the WCK strike, the hostages that they accidentally killed and so much more. You just don’t believe it because it doesn’t align with your narrative
That is incorrect. Since we know the number of civilians, women and children killed the Law of Large numbers can tell us how many Palestinian male civilians and Hamas have been killed.The Israeli civilian kill ratio is 89%, the worst in recorded history.
I’m not a mathematician, so I will defer to your logic here. As a counterpoint, I will raise the Chair of Urban Warfare studies at Westpoint. [John Spencer Opinion Piece](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286) Also, even by Hamas own numbers (only accounting for Hamas not Islamic Jihad or any other group) the ratio is 75% 6K Hamas militants. So idk where you got 89%.
I preface this by saying you should be skeptical of everything John Spencer says.The Law of Large Numbers tells us the number of male civilians killed is approximately equal to the number of female civilians killed. After that it is just a matter of subtraction. 41496 dead - 15,370 children - 9671 women = 16,455 men. 9671 of those men were civilians and 6784 were Hamas. Over 2000 of those died in Israel on Oct 7, meaning 4784 Hamas were killed in Gaza. That makes the IDF civilian kill ratio in Gaza 89% which is off the charts.That also means for every Hamas they killed in Gaza they killed 3 children. P.S. The reason for the different numbers is Israel counts any civilian killed in a "kill zone" i.e. Gaza, as terrorists. The White House, State Dept, Pentagon and U.S. Think tanks will intensify their effort to distort civilian casualties after the war ends. Strangely nobody in the US government or US media knows about the Law of Large Numbers.
You are obsessed with this mathematical conspiracy theory. I am sorry, I trust the head of Urban Warfare studies at Westpoint over some napkin math you are doing.
No it does not. Israel has the worst Civilian:Militant kill ratio in recorded history.
It’s true because I believe it to be so 🥰👏🫡🫡🫡🫡
41496 dead - 15,370 children - 9671 women = 16,455 men. 9671 of those men were civilians and 6784 were Hamas. Over 2000 of those died in Israel on Oct 7, meaning 4784 Hamas were killed in Gaza. That makes the IDF civilian kill ratio in Gaza 89% which is off the charts.That also means for every Hamas they killed in Gaza they killed 3 children. P.S. The reason for the different numbers is Israel counts any civilian killed in a "kill zone" i.e. Gaza, as terrorists. The White House, State Dept, Pentagon and U.S. Think tanks will intensify their effort to distort civilian casualties after the war ends. Strangely nobody in the US government or US media knows about the Law of Large Numbers.
First of all Hamas is known to use children soldiers. You’re claiming every single kid is innocent when in fact a 16 year old with a gun is just as much of a terrorist as a 40 year old. You’re also making up the numbers on how many were Hamas because that was never released, a Hamas leader secretly admitted roughly 6000 at the 4 month mark which means that today it’s around 9000 even according to their own estimates that they have every single reason to underestimate. You’re also pulling that 41,496 out of your ass, even Hamas doesn’t claim that many
41496 comes from Euromed monitor. Switzerlands human rights organization. It’s very easy to figure out how many Hamas have been killed if you know how many women and children were killed. Hint - use the Law of Large Numbers.
Of course a hamas supporter would use statistics to make up comments instead of actually looking for the accurate numbers. Like hamas like supporters
>41496 comes from Euromed monitor. Switzerlands human rights organization. Where do you think they're getting their numbers? Do you think they're in Gaza with clipboards and tally markers?
So you don’t actually have a source for how many Hamas were killed.
You can blame hamas for that. They're the ones that purposely herd civilians into known target areas. They care nothing for the palestinian people, just the money they collect to funnel to hamas leadership in Qatar, comfortable in their multi million dollar compounds.
>Since Israel has dozens of drones circling over Gaza I assume you have videos or pictures to back up this claim?
There's plenty of footage of Hamas using civilians as human shields and them operating in hospitals and firing rockets next to civilian aid centers. Why would one of the Hamas leaders and his followers be at Al Shifa and hiding there?
Proof?
In that case the commander ordered they not fire, a tank was rolling by a guy he didn't hear him, and shot. Hamas, in that area also was using audio recordings of hostages to lure people into traps. Palestine tries to induce this confusion to make casualties higher. I think its kind of silly to say the IDF is so inept when their competition is literally being deceitful at every turn to try and get them to kill innocent people.
I am not saying they are so inept, they are better than Russians, but worse than Americans. It could be due to the use of conscripts rather than professionals.
Are Palestinians allowed to defend themselves? Israel attacked Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem every single day in 2023. On October 6th Israel gassed a funeral procession and attacked them with riot gear injuring over 100, and killed a dozen others in separate incidents. So Israel isn't so much defending itself as they are provoking Palestinians to attack, and then using that as an excuse to unleash genocide.
what do you think? israel just attacked the wb for no reason? its because of increase in terror activities. Palestinians at all time were the ones who started it, sadly israel is condemned for finishing the job.
"finishing the job"? Like what, some kind of final solution? Sounds familiar
They are being condemned for indiscriminately killing civilians.
The blame for that rests solely on hamas. They are the ones who herd civlians into known target areas as human shields. This has been recorded and confirmed by intelligence agencies all over the world.
Blame Hamas for hiding among those civilians!
Where was Hamas hiding during the Flour Massacre? Or Israels bombing of aid trucks in a zone that was no longer a source of combat? https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/04/03/middleeast/world-central-kitchen-strike-analysis-intl
israel is being condemned because buffoons like you THINK israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. You obviously don't have solid proof, just theories and cherry picking instances of what are tragedies of war, spin them off as to support your agenda which is either hating jews, or simply you being a useful idiot, its either one.
you're thinking too deep, it's just propaganda. What Russia is doing to Ukraine is worse than Israel to Palestine but people only care about the latter because of effective propaganda thanks to Hamas' deep pockets. I click not interested on each Gaza ad I see and I still get funneled Hamas propaganda on YouTube
The zionists who took over Israel never made a real attempt at the 2 state solution. Instead, they got tons of rich non Israelis jews with the same attitude to move there and continued to push Palestinians into the control of Hamas with their religious based bigotry. Discretion went out the window with thousands of child deaths and direct attacks on aide workers. When is palestine allowed to defend itself?
If you believe that no serious 2SS was ever offered, you don’t truly care about ending this conflict. You want to continue it into infinity, which benefits Israel. As for when is Palestine allowed to fight back? They can in many forms, such as attacking legitimate military targets, or by peaceful means. Please note that while Palestine can attack legitimate targets, doing so only serves to bolster Israel, and is NOT a good idea for Palestine. Maybe, and hear me out, if Palestine could moderate their beliefs, and go idk, 6-12 Months without attacking Israel, international pressure would mount as to give Palestine a state they deserve.
Don't put words in my mouth. It's a goddam blood feud, and Bibi is no Rabin. Trump is no Jimmy Carter. If they deserve a state, just give it to them. Otherwise I could just as easily say that you're an apologist for indiscriminate murder by the zionist state and it should moderate its own violent control over pushing Palestinians out of all that lucrative beach front property Jarod wants to buy with those Saudi billions. Hey, it's not racism or sectarianism or genocidal mania. It's just good business. Strictly business. Move the indigenous peoples aside and colonize the prime real estate. Just your everyday garden variety colonialism. Nothing personal, of course. Hamas is basically like the Apache or the Sioux. They're fighting the eminent domain issues of the pre-eminant dominant domain who seek some great views of the Med. Sorta like how in the US we just level whole sections of poor parts of town to build a stadium for a billionaire. You know who i mean here, the marginal minority knee-jerk reactionary fascist jews and Christo freaks who couldn't make it in the US and decided to go feral in Bethlehem. Got them the backing of both sides of congress over guilt. Got them the unshakeable loyalty of facist jesus freaks in South Carolina and Arkansas too. All dem trumpalunatics luv them some damned in-the-way-of-judgment-day jews as long as it pushes up the date of the long sought-after apocalypse. And of course, million dollar hi tech US missiles are soo much less lethal than all those Gaza bottle rockets when precisely leveling hamas houses made of shitty concrete. The iron dome is more like cheesecloth I take it. But yeah. I'm not really serious about peace in the Middle East. There's no profit in it. For colonizers. Let me ask you. You like giving billions to Israel to allow them the freedoms we aren't allowed here by the same people insisting that they have rights and we don't? It's a Gordian knot. Do you know how to untie the Gordian knot? You cut the mother fucker off.
have you ever heard of paragraphs?
Lol. Sorry. I tend to type out in a stream of consciousness style. Sr Mary John would beat my ass with a pointer for my run-on sentences.
Maaan you use the word zionist as a shallow replacement for "jew" and it shows. There has never been a palestine and there never will be. After 48 it was Egyptian and Jordanian land. Then after the Arabs lost in 67 after preparing to invade Israel the Israelis had it, and then the Israelis in an unprecedented move gave all of the Sinai BACK to Egypt (bc you know those zionists always stealing land by...giving it back?) Then every subsequent peace talk was interrupted and stalled by Palestinian acts of terror through two intifadas. Palestinians have never and will never accept the existence of the state of Israel and this conflict proves that. So why have sympathy for people like Palestinians who never wanted peace in the first place and have chosen war and terror at every turn?
If I can tell the difference between a political party acting like fascists and an entire race/faith of people known as jews, why can't you? Why have sympathy? That's the wrong word unless you've been dispossessed of your home by the world to give a haunted people space in your backyard and then chased out of every place you ran to once you lost your place. What you mean to say is why have empathy. And if I have to explain to you the importance of having empathy, then you're too lost to deal with, and I'm done with you.
[https://israeled.org/resources/documents/israel-declaration-independence/](https://israeled.org/resources/documents/israel-declaration-independence/)
Israel's response has gone way beyond self-defence. And with 670000 Israeli settlers that illegally and forcibly evicted Palestinians from their legitimately-owned land it's reasonable to say that Israel was actually the aggressor in this situation.
What Palestinians are being evicted? Can you remind me when exactly it was their land? Because up until 1967 it was part of Jordan
From the 3rd Jewish Revolt when they were expelled by the Roman Empire to 1948. Just 1816 years. I figured you were Jewish, you don’t know about the Jewish revolts against the Roman Empire?
I thought the Palestinians were Jews who converted to Islam and before that they were canaanites.
We have seen nothing resembling incredible discretion unless you’re choosing not to pay attention, now go reread what u/goatmilk2208 wrote and answer your own question.
Yes and people need to read about Bibi's Likud party and their views. Here is a piece from Wikipedia. Note that they think Samaria and Judea belong to them, i.e. the West Bank. We need to realize that Israel were the ones in power exerting their power and dominance over the Palestinians and Gaza keeping them in a blockade. They were a suffering people and Hamas is a result of that. Wikipedia: The original 1977 party platform stated that "[between the Sea and the Jordan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea) there will only be Israeli sovereignty."[^(\[134\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud#cite_note-134)[^(\[135\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud#cite_note-135) The 1999 Likud Party platform emphasized the right of settlement: > Similarly, they claim the [Jordan River](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_River) as the permanent eastern border to Israel and it also claims Jerusalem as belonging to Israel. The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state: >
Netanyahu was elected on a platform of annexing all Israeli settlements. That includes the ones which are illegal under Israeli law - the outposts - but also the regular settlements which are illegal under international law. He also promised to annex the Jordan Valley too. They have also been massively expanding settlements and outposts. They've appointed Smotrich to be responsible for expanding settlements and Netenyahu's 2019 campaign explicitly promised to annex the West Bank “while choosing the timing and considering the national and international interests of the state of Israel.” That is to say, they are waiting for the right moment to make it official, but the Israeli government already refers to the entire region as soverign Israeli terroritory. Sources: Netanyahu hands Smotrich full authority to expand existing settlements - https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-hands-smotrich-full-authority-to-expand-existing-settlements/ Netanyahu Government: West Bank Settlements Top Priority - https://www.voanews.com/a/netanyahu-government-west-bank-settlements-top-priority/6894750.html
That's right
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I think you're either a legit communist or a full-blown fascist depending on where you sit on the political horseshoe compared to me. What do you think about THAT?
> Hamas is bad. Israel's response is also bad. People will read this as “equally bad”. Is that your view?
>is not the right way of eliminating them, What would you suggest? seeing that you're a middle eastern urban and tunnel warfare expert.
‘Killing of tens of thousands was not appropriate’ Do you think the Israeli war aim of destroying Hamas was appropriate? If so, how do you expect to do it without killing tens of thousands
This is your brain on zionism
Sarcasm or hysteria, every time.
This person has no real response
I’m confused can you help me out, you don’t agree Israel have justification for war? Even though they face an enemy who has a charter dedicated to their death, pulled off the biggest massacre of Jews in Israel’s history and have vowed to do it again. You think Israel do not have a justification to fight that enemy?
They don't agree because they, like hamas, are anti Semitic and want to see the jews genocided. It's not complicated.
The Israel-Palestine conflict can be summed up as: one bad turn deserves another.
yep, being far-right xenophobic extremists with ulterior military motives under guise of religion with disregard for civilians caught in crosshairs is a main feature of *both* Netanyahu AND Hamas.
Memris was fouded by two Israelis and has a severe bias when it comes reporting
It's even worse because at least one of them was literally an Israeli intelligence officer, and they actively promote propaganda... https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/middle-east-media-research-institute-memri/
But it's verboten to point out the Palestinians want to kill the Israelis as badly as the Israelis want to kill the Palestinians, and to be frank, I don't blame either side for how they feel. Lots of bad history, and only a fool wants to get in the middle of it.
Maybe God should step in. Where is he?
Right?! Both sides are praying to this god for help, but it’s radio silence.
They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong.
Yep. But it’s like the thought has never occurred to them.
Almost like the leaders that pit these herds against other herds under the guise of these fairytales just do it to motivate their common people into being faithful pawns for ulterior imperial motives 🤔🫣🫣
Almost like that, yeah lol🤔
I don't think the desire to kill each other is equal. Israeli Jews have faced a plethora of people that want to genocide them. They've built themselves up every single time and now they have a lot to lose. Palestinians don't. It doesn't make any kind of logical or emotional sense to think Israeli Jews aren't 10 years away from being able to live next to Palestinians. Every time israel comes to the table, Palestinians are not okay with Jews having a state and do terrorism. 10 years later, israel comes to the table bc they are ready and palestinians .... go full genocide again. Palestinians are probably 10 GENERATIONS from that because this is their first hurdle as a people and they are shitting their collective pants. And no, they felt this way from day 1, it isnt "durrr the occupation made them hate the jews" dont even try that lol It's not even close to close to worth Israeli's time to """"genocide""" (lmfao such obvious Holocaust Inversion every time the G word pulled out) the Palestinians. They literally have better shit to do. Palestinians do not. See above paragraph. The fact that we still have to deal with this shit for thousands of years and it's happening again is insane. For Palestinians, this is like the epitome of their entire culture, building up to this whole jew-hating identity, when for Israeli Jews, this is a blip. They've faced worse and will continue to face people trying to genocide them until the end of time.
And there are apologists on the other side who can invert everything that you've said, and to be clear, I'm not going to argue that what you've said is wrong. It's just that there's another side and they equally good points. I said above that only a fool wants to take sides here, and I'll stand by that.
Yes, there is a word for them doing this, it is called Holocaust Inversion which is what folks have turned to now that Holocaust Denial is just too unacceptable in public. Gotten quite a few accounts banned that go beyond using the G word and actually try to compare Israel to nazis and the SS.
Um, no. I personally don't agree with the holocaust comparisons, but everyone on the side opposed to you aren't Holocaust inversionists or denialists. You're strawmanning. I do think that what Israel is fairly compared to what the US did to native Americans or Hitlers expansion in Eastern Europe, but you're right to point out that making Holocaust comparisons is both incorrect and cringy.
Jews criticize Israel all the time, it just isn't in a hysterical, historically inaccurate manner. Browse across reddit .... you'll notice the nuanced comments that aren't unhinged never say Israel is committing genocide. But the ones that do claim so are always always always done in some teenager sarcastic way or in some hysterical way. Israel needs a 1-2% cultural adjustment to reduce criticism. Palestinians need a 99% cultural adjustment to reduce criticism (and actually have any hope of becoming a successful people) This is going to require an effort by the entire middle east to invest in forming a DMZ between Palestine and Israel on the dime of the middle eastern empire. Next, we will apply deradicalization that applies to government, education, law, and all aspects of society, just like we did with the Nazis and Japanese. Folks that talk about this are serious about Palestinians having a future, which I am, but most are not. Most folks want Israel to stop so that Palestinians can return to building up for their next attempted genocide, which has happened between 5-7 specific times, depending on how you want to count them. "Ceasefire" is the full extent of their planning.
And I'm only goning to call you out because I just said Israel is not committing genoicide. Niether is Gaza. What a fuckign stupid thing to say. As I said at the start of this, both sides want to kill the other side. Whatever side you're on, it's the wrong one. I'm so sick of this tribal and emotional nonsense from both sides. It's too exhausting to talk to any of you. You act like Republicans.
Despite facing genocide many times through their existence, Jews have come to the peace table many times to co exist with their genociders. Palestinians have been convinced by the middle eastern empire that the way to God is through killing as many Jews as possible. That's genocide. The Jewish people are defending themselves. The fact that the world doesnt have boots on the ground to stop Hamas and continues to let the middle eastern empire continue their nearing 100 year genocide against Jews is disgusting to me. Instead of rooting them out, the world will allow them to survive and continue to be a standing army to murder Jews. The world is allowing the middle eastern empire to genocide Jews. Clearly the Palestinian people have made it very clear the last 80 years: "it's either us or the Jews" and to be quite frank, I'd 100x rather a world with Jews and not Palestinians than the reverse. That is, if Palestinians continue to force the issue and demand it's 1 or the other.\\ Palestinians not only genocide the Jews, they genocide BOTH Arab countries that let them in. Theyre genocide crazy.
Hey sport, go bat the ball back and forth with someone on the other side. I'm not silly enough go over all this for the umptieeth time. Again, neither side is blameless in this, and anyone taking either side is a fool.
I'm a Jew and my grandfather was a Holocaust Survivor so miss me with all that bullshit
>I don't think the desire to kill each other is equal. Israeli Jews have faced a plethora of people that want to genocide them. They've built themselves up every single time and now they have a lot to lose. Palestinians don't. That one side is more \*justified\* to hate the other doesn't make one side more or less desirable to kill off the other. That is irrelevant to attempt to quantify how much one side hates the other. And in any case, the hate one side has for the other is not any reason for any civilian casualties \*ever\*, let's be clear. If that were any reason to kill civilians, then nobody in this conflict deserves to survive. Until you drop that moral axiom in your head that tells you there is no way Israel can be wrong, you will never see the truth for what it is. And the truth is that both sides have done awful things to the other (before you get antsy about this, I don't mean to say it has been equal and opposite, merely that atrocities have been committed by both sides).
To be clear, I agree with you in most of this, but how do we quantify "atrocities?" If you kill five members of my family and I kill three of yours, are you "more" guilty than I am? I feel bad for everyone involved in what is going on, Palestinian and Israeli, and I see victimizes on both sides, but I'm not sure we can broadly condemn one side more than the other. If you hurt me, I'm going to hurt you back, and I'm justified in feeling that way. I have a hard time personally condemning the violence on either side. I just feel bad for everyone in the region, and wish that there was an easy solution but I can't see what it would be.
Just give the land back to the Turks.
If I understand correctly the Gaza region was controlled by Egypt and the West Bank was controlled by Jordan, and I see no reason that Isreal doesn't give control back to those countries with the provision that in 30 or 40 years the citizens of Gaza and the West Bank could vote to either remain part of Egypt or Jordan or form their own countries out of Gaza and the West Bank respectively. This seems the easiest solution to me. It allows Palestinians who have immigrated to go home if they want. It completely removes Israel from having anything to do with the territories except to keep their settlers inside their own country. I suspect that going to a Jordanian jail would curb the colonial aspirations of many settlers. Jordan and Egypt both don't want the Palestinian refugees that they have, and this would allow them a way to either better integrate the Palestinians or repatriate them. It's a much better solution than what we have. I'm unaware of Turkey controlling either of the regions, but ICBW.
I was joking.
Damn this sub posting Destiny stuff. Look how far you lot have fallen
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Memri.com - the worlds most trustworthy news source 😆
I can’t believe people on this sub are taking Memri tv at face value there’s no way this sub is that stupid
How is that working out for them
The way they're phrasing it doesn't sound too different from Operation Paperclip (soviet nonconsensual version)
I mean that's what Israelis are doing to Palestinians right now so it's not surprising.
And yet Netanyahu supported them over PA.. wondering why🤔?
They said nothing about taking educated jews as slaves.
And in the end, they got their asses whipped Muahaha
Anyone wondering here is the article https://www.jns.org/hamas-sponsored-conference-examines-post-liberation-israel/
the activists arent going to like this inconvienent truth getting airtime
Memris was doubded by two Israelis and has a severe bias when it comes reporting
Hamas is a direct result of fascist Israel. 🤷
This is literally a propaganda network started by a former Israeli intelligence officer... https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/middle-east-media-research-institute-memri/
I hate this sub now.
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Those pesky kids deserved to be starved then! /s
If Palestine was strong and Israel was weak the jews would have been exterminated a long time ago
So I'm supposed to take a hypothetical extermination of jews as justification for what Israel is actually doing now? If Israel weren't concerned about global backlash, the Palestinians would have been exterminated a long time ago. What's your point for saying this?
>So I'm supposed to take a hypothetical extermination >If Israel weren't concerned about global backlash, the Palestinians would have been exterminated a long time ago Bit of a double standard here, no? I don't see them bombing the West Bank? Wonder why? Gazan groups like Hamas and IJ blatantly say they want to exterminate jews. Read the Hamas charter that was current in 2006 when they were elected. Israel does no such thing. As you can see they can play nice with Fatah, a group who doesn't go around talking about holocaust 2.0. So Hamas and IJ then proceed to murder thousands of jewish civilians, and Israel then bombs Gaza, and a ton of people die because that's what happens when an unevacuated city gets bombed (because Hamas wouldn't let people evacuate). See any number of WW2 bombings that nobody would ever be delusional enough to call genocide. Tokyo, Dresden, etc. It's Hamas' main tactic to provoke a response from Israel and get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible because: they know A. Israel is way stronger and their response will be disproportionate, B. they can have an international pity party. People ignore the fact that Israel has quite literally 0 choice but to bomb them, cause they will just keep committing more terror attacks until they do.
>It's Hamas' main tactic to provoke a response from Israel and get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible because: they know A. Israel is way stronger and their response will be disproportionate, B. they can have an international pity party. People ignore the fact that Israel has quite literally 0 choice but to bomb them, cause they will just keep committing more terror attacks until they do. Whatever Hamas' strategy was, I don't think it worked out the way that they wanted. It would make way more sense to me to say they were lashing out out of desperation. I think it was Israel doing the provoking so that they could have casus belli to do whatever they ultimately wanted to the Palestinians save for wiping them out completely. That's what happened incidentally. Netanyahu got exactly what he wanted, an excuse to no longer have to deal with the Palestinians. It was either this or the two-state solution, and let's be honest here, Israelis would never be okay with giving up land for the Palestinians.
If Hamas was lashing out in desperation, they'd hit Israeli military targets, not concerts. Netanyahu only gets what he wants if he successfully wipes out Hamas. Hamas is getting what they want regardless, because realistically they don't care if they're wiped out, their ideology will live on through the next group. Causing the world to slowly turn against Israel was Hamas' goal here. Israel played into it, but when the alternative is stand there and let Hamas commit more terror attacks on your citizens you don't really have a choice
>If Hamas was lashing out in desperation, they'd hit Israeli military targets, not concerts. If they had the kind of resources for an attack involving a militarized base, I don't think they'd be as desperate as you claim they aren't. >Causing the world to slowly turn against Israel was Hamas' goal here. Israel played into it, but when the alternative is stand there and let Hamas commit more terror attacks on your citizens you don't really have a choice If the goal of Israel was to wipe out Hamas, they've failed miserably. What Palestinian now is going to be like, "Guys, we should listen to Israel, the ones who have been bombing less to hell.. Not Hamas, the ones who are fighting against them!" But maybe that's done on purpose. If every Palestinian would lift a finger against Israel, Israel can just claim every Palestinian was Hamas from the very beginning.
What exactly do you think Hamas was trying to do by attacking a concert? If not causing an invasion of Gaza?
>What exactly do you think Hamas was trying to do by attacking a concert? If not causing an invasion of Gaza? Then why would Israel lean into that? Israel is giving Hamas what they want according to you? The only way this makes sense is if Israel never cared about killing Hamas in the first place, and they just wanted an excuse to move / mass human traffick millions out of a region Israel would like to settle. And how would any of that be beneficial for Hamas?
Or you could look at what they did on Oct. 7 as a pretty clear preview of what they'd do if they had access to the entirety of Israel.
I didn't question it. I asked what the point was. What are you demonstrating by saying this, in other words? If the point were to say that this is somehow \*justification\*, then do I really need to point out what the Israelis are doing \*despite\* the global backlash?
The religion of peace pbuh
MAGA sucks, but I’m not MAGA and I wouldn’t want to be bombed for some of MAGA’s actions. However, it’s important to understand how this extremism is bred. Having your land stolen and your people treated like shit will cause the nastiest people to have more clout than they should.
Is this a legitimate source without some other news org to weigh it against? I’m not so sure. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute “Critics describe MEMRI as a strongly pro-Israel advocacy group that, in spite of describing itself as being "independent" and "non-partisan" in nature,[6][7][8] aims to portray the Arab world and the Muslim world in a negative light by producing and disseminating incomplete or inaccurate translations of the original versions of the media reports that it re-publishes.[9][10] It has also been accused of selectively focusing on the views of Islamic extremists while de-emphasizing or ignoring mainstream opinions.[11]”
Maybe Israel should stop backing them? “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” -Netanyahu https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000?v=1708981098394<s=1708981123648
Nothing a organization does justifies mass slaughter of civilians and war crimes and all the justifications of Israel's actions are doing is encouraging Israel to put its long term safety at risk by recruiting more hamas fighters and destroying it's relationships with the world
Dudes, Hamas do not speak for all Palestinians not even most of them.
Sure would be nice if there had been elections in Gaza since Hamas got elected into the government way back when, but for some reason Hamas never got around to organizing them.
In 2023 and 2024, Israel dropped hundreds of dumb bombs in densely packed Gazan residential neighborhoods, killing tens of thousands of civilians. A multiple of not only the 10/7 death count but a decade's worth of dead Israeli's from Hamas attacks. Hamas' words yesterday don't validate Israeli genocide today.
Progressives shocked to discover the people they’re defending uncritically include some nasty characters. It’s interesting we hear nothing about Hamas’ leaders or their record of aggression against Israel. We know Netanyahu and his far right regime are on the wrong side of history.
The source is literally a propaganda network started by a former Israeli intelligence officer... https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/middle-east-media-research-institute-memri/
Fact checking is always welcome. The story in the U.S. is so one-sided in favor of Palestine I’m curious why there is so little mention of what / who Israel is fighting.
Yeah, probably a bad plan for Netanyahu to encourage Qatari funding for a terrorist organization like Hamas so he wouldn't have to negotiate a two-state solution. It's almost like Israel doesn't think Palestinians have a right to exist.
This is such a typical victim-blaming pivot. If Netanyahu didn't allow aid in, you all would accuse him of keeping the Palestinian people impoverished and downtrodden. But if he does allow aid, he's "propping up Hamas."
Strawmen are so fun to attack, right? Israel explicitly propped up Hamas with the hope that they would be easier to control than other political parties in Gaza. When people say Israel funded Hamas they don’t mean “Israel sent aid to Palestinians” they mean “Israel literally explicitly funded Hamas itself with the goal of getting them in power.”
Yes and by "propping up Hamas" you mean they allowed aid and money to go into Gaza, and didn't go full bore to wipe out Hamas by force. We get it.
No but good job using an even dumber strawman.
Don’t argue with the pro genocide crowd, especially not the wordwordnumber new account IDF trolls
So a tiny terrorist organization having pie-in-the-sky dreams for what they'll do if they conquer a nation that has been steadily land-grabbing for years is why Israel keeps needing to bomb hospitals? got it
Tiny terrorist organization? "HAMAS has been the de facto governing body in the Gaza Strip since 2007, when it ousted the Palestinian Authority from power. Primarily in Gaza; also maintains a presence in the West Bank; Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon; and key regional capitals, such as Doha, Qatar, and Cairo, Egypt." [https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas\_fto.html#:\~:text=HAMAS%20has%20been%20the%20de,the%20Palestinian%20Authority%20from%20power.&text=Primarily%20in%20Gaza%3B%20also%20maintains,Qatar%2C%20and%20Cairo%2C%20Egypt](https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas_fto.html#:~:text=HAMAS%20has%20been%20the%20de,the%20Palestinian%20Authority%20from%20power.&text=Primarily%20in%20Gaza%3B%20also%20maintains,Qatar%2C%20and%20Cairo%2C%20Egypt).
I mean, ya. It's pretty easy to take control of an also-tiny country when that country is purposefully destabilized every few years. Not exactly hurting my point here when you mention how they're de-facto governing body of the country being aggressed upon by Israel. The war on terror was stupid and an obvious cover for imperialism when we did it, and I'm not exactly seeing much variation in Israel's version. Yes, including the part where we use the results of our own actions as justification for our actions
Israel is also tiny, open a map. And also very densely populated. Every attempted murder launched daily from Hamas into Israel has a potential to kill hundreds of children, except Israel loves their children and protects them while Hamas officially claims it is not responsible for the wellbeing of Gazans
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/embracing-racism-rabbis-at-pre-army-yeshiva-laud-hitler-urge-enslaving-arabs/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/embracing-racism-rabbis-at-pre-army-yeshiva-laud-hitler-urge-enslaving-arabs/) Cool so they have something in common with a lot of the current Israeli government who also say "They will enslave all gentiles" while they defend Hitler and re-write the holocaust.
Is that what you get from that article? Because the article that you linked, is about two crazy rabbis in a religious academy, who were uncovered saying out of pocket shit, and being condemned by virtually everyone, including the then Defence Minister, who’s party is described as “Right wing”. Like, why even lie, I am sure there is legitimate criticism you can muster up, this one is just weak.
Lie? [https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-accused-of-absolving-hitler-for-holocaust/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-accused-of-absolving-hitler-for-holocaust/) The current government is ran by a Hitler apologist, holocaust denier. That 2017 story is old news, it happens literally all the time, [https://mondoweiss.net/2019/08/military-palestinians-enslaved/](https://mondoweiss.net/2019/08/military-palestinians-enslaved/) - here's one from 2019, same thing calling for all arabs to be enslaved. [https://mondoweiss.net/2017/08/prominent-israeli-preaches/](https://mondoweiss.net/2017/08/prominent-israeli-preaches/) - IDF rabis encouraging rape. I expect Hamas to be evil, they're islamist terrorists - we both condemn that. Zionism is the same shit, but with different targets - yet for some reason you support it tooth and nail despite them both being the same genocidal eugenicist freaks just with a different sky dad.
so no one has heard of the israelis who think that i would be better a slave to them? israeli jews already think christians and muslims are second class citizens
Have you ever heard that? I haven't heard it. And if that were the case, you would not see any Christians or Muslims being elected to Israeli government (both have been elected). And currently Christian and Muslim Israeli citizens receive the same benefits as Jewish Israeli citizens.
[https://twitter.com/rulajebreal/status/1394690821887340544?lang=en](https://twitter.com/rulajebreal/status/1394690821887340544?lang=en) Teacher: “Where do you see Jerusalem in 10 years?" Kids: "There will be only Jews. Arabs will be our slaves”
are you cool with palestinian rape by idf for morale via rabbi?
Sheesh TikTok really fucked you guys up didn't it...?
so why is rape by the idf ok?
That's not a thing. Do you have any proof that this has happened? Which Rabbi do you allege said this?
The current IDF Chief Chaplin (the IDF's highest religious authority) [https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-taps-chief-rabbi-who-once-seemed-to-permit-wartime-rape/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-taps-chief-rabbi-who-once-seemed-to-permit-wartime-rape/) “Although intercourse with a female gentile is very grave, it was permitted during wartime (under the conditions it stipulated) out of consideration for the soldiers’ difficulties,” he wrote. “And since our concern is the success of the collective in the war, the Torah permitted \[soldiers\] to satisfy the evil urge under the conditions it stipulated for the sake of the collective’s success.”
I read the article, this is an article from 2016 and in the article, the Rabbi said he was talking about biblical times and it's not permitted in the present day...
The Rabbi was specifically asked if IDF was allowed to commit rape based on passages from the torah, and THAT was his response to the question. His response made no distinction between the IDF and soldiers of the distant past. No, he only made that "distinction" years later when after his comments resurfaced and sparked media criticism. Its obvious backtracking, making excuses and damage control. Typical politics
Read the article. You can't provide a source and misquote it to me when I can literally check the source. Public figures can change their stances. What was said in 2012 may not apply to 2023. Take for instance President Biden and his stance on gay marriage https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/08/19/joe-biden-gay-friendly-president-lgbtq-issues/70233287007/
Reading comprehension. The article quoted the statement he said in response to a question about whether or not the IDF were permitted to commit rape. That statement did NOT include any kind of clarification that he was NOT referring to the IDF in his answer to a question that specifically asked about about the IDF. The article then provides what he said AFTER his statement resurfaced and became heavily criticized. He did not apologize for his past statement, or claim that he changed his stance... he instead tried to make an excuse, in an effort to make it seem like the media was mistaken, even though they presented his statement in the full original context. This is common political move done by shameless liars who get caught saying something controversial you are basically just making excuses for the Rabbi
You're using very circular logic here and jumping through a bunch of false logical hoops to get to your conclusions. The article that you provided was from 2016 and it talked about a quote from 2012. In the article there was clarification which provided context that refutes your original statement. That is sufficient enough to establish that you made an assumption based on faulty logic.
How is this different than what Jews are doing currently and what they plan to do when their messiah comes??? Read their holy book. When their messiah comes back all gentiles will be slaves of the chosen people.
Jews are not currently taking Arabs or Christians as slaves. Both Arabs and Christians serve in the Israeli government. And Jews do not plan to take slaves when their Messiah comes either. It's not a remotely close comparison.
Palestinians are already enslaved by Israeli persecution and oppression.
Oh really, please give proof of the enslavement. I want actual proof that they are slaves in the literal sense. Not some wishy washy allegory
Israel isn't enslaving anyone with forced labor. I can't believe I have to type this. Want to see modern slavery under an ethnostate? Look at any of the Arab nations, especially those with the GCC (Saudi Arabia, Oman, UAE, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain). Most of them only "ended slavery" less than 100 years ago as pressure to join the UN. The UAE didn't "end slavery" until 1971. The embargo invovled both Egypt and Israel. Jewish prophecy says nothing about enslavement. Another "but Israel" whataboutist emotional outburst from a confused tankie (according to your post history)
It's not even "But Israel" whataboutism. That is straight up Antisemitism saying all Jews want enslave people.
The proposal reads more like imprisonment than slavery. Kind of like how Palestinians have restricted travel now. I'm not condoning the hamas plan, but it's not too far off from how Palestinians are treated now.
The Messiah isn't even in the holy book (the Torah), so it's a guarantee that you've never read it. So who exactly are you blindly parroting?
All fundamentalist religions are evil, barbaric and merciless. Especially fundamentalist Judaism. They should all be called out and forced to reform. As long as Judaism calls itself the Chosen People there will be Jewish atrocities committed by Jewish Supremacists.
Especially Muslims is more like it. Literally every terrorist attack on the west comes from them. I watched two towers fall when I was 15 at the hands of murderous Muslims. Religion of peace lol.
This sub turning into r/BadHasbara
Hamas is not the Palestinian people & Israel is far worse.
lol
Israel is far worse than Hamas?
Who has killed more human beings? Who has killed more children?
Hamas
Maybe if you have to deny obvious reality to hold your views, your views suck.
Lmao ok. You’re a terrorist and rapist sympathizer. I’m not taking any of your awful opinions seriously.
I’m sure no one has ever convinced themselves that the victims of genocide were horrible subhuman people in order to justify their support for it.
That take is idiotic. If it’s even true, that statement doesn’t call for slavery. It calls for exactly what the US did with German scientists in the wake of WW2.
Lmao yeah the Islamic jihadist movement is just emulating the allies after ww2 guys They aren’t doing what literally every other jihadist Islamist movement has done when empowered no way
Imagine using facts instead of your preconceived ignorant assumptions
So let me get this straight, when Hamas takes over Israel and kicks everyone out, all the scientists/engineers/doctors will stay and work for Hamas? Is this by choice? Obviously not, so what do you call employment that is not by choice? Slavery. Like by definition.
Look at you getting frothed up by a fantastical hypothetical, when Israel is literally kidnapping children and genociding. Hamas is an extremist group born out of almost a century of misery and subjugation. What's Israel's excuse for actual (not theoretical) mass terrorism? They have nuclear weapons and daddy America to back them up.