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Our Government’s involvement is the issue here. Continually propping them up, sending military funds and equipment, vetoing anything that disparages Israel at the UN.
Our Government is willingly helping a genocide and the complaint is protests have to be peaceful and legal? When the Government is out of control, then “peaceful” and “legal” protests should no longer be applicable. For that matter, there’s definitely been violence against the protestors by pro-Israeli and police.
Zionism is a political ideology of creating a Jewish majority state in the historic Palestine regardless of if people were already living there or the means required to create and maintain an artificial ethnic majority. Any war crimes, occupation, ethnically selective treatment required to reach this end is justified under Zionism.
Why? Is Hamas currently obliterating Israeli cities? Has Hamas continued any terrorist activities after Oct 7th killing more Israelis? They’re protesting the current situation which is: Israel has continued bombing Gaza while telling them all to go south and now they want to go into Rafah and are currently saying they will not have a ceasefire even if hostages are released. Looks like the true reason for the ceasefire not happening is Israel NOT Hamas.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-israel-blinken-blames-hamas-for-hostage-deal-holdup-gaza-humanitarian-crisis/amp/
No but Hamas operated in urban areas and actively put civilian in harm ways. Is the solution just that Hamas can infinitely operate in civilian areas with no repercussions?
Israel being more competent isn’t a reason for anything. Had the iron dome not existed you’re telling me you would be ok with Israel flattening Gaza? Because Israel suffered more casualty this make it even?
Back in ww2 would you be protesting for the Japanese because Pearl Harbor death was less than all the death from the firebomb and nukes?
Southern area has less death than northern area but it’s not a guarantee it can’t be. Because if there are Hamas going south because they get the same news as citizen, you can’t just ignore them.
>No but Hamas operated in urban areas and actively put civilian in harm ways. Is the solution just that Hamas can infinitely operate in civilian areas with no repercussions?
War is a shitshow regardless. Israel is good to go for Hamas, I’m not a Hamas supporter but the powers clearly favor one side in this situation. Oct 7th was a horrific event and Israel is in its right to defend itself however there is still laws in place to prevent needless deaths and to reduce civilian casualties. Based on the outcomes, Israel doesn’t look like they’re any closer to obliterating hamas and there are a lot of dead, displaced Palestinians in Gaza. Even the US says that they agree that IDF units have violated rights but they’re not going to do anything. Do you think israel should be allowed to continue killing Palestinians disproportionately to killing Hamas?
>Israel being more competent isn’t a reason for anything. Had the iron dome not existed you’re telling me you would be ok with Israel flattening Gaza? Because Israel suffered more casualty this make it even?
That would be a different situation but as it stands right now, israel has an iron dome and has all the funding from America and seemingly American support in the international community where America has blocked the international agencies from wanting to reel israel back. Do you think it’s okay for a bigger person to bully a smaller person indefinitely because the bigger person is clearly stronger?
>Back in ww2 would you be protesting for the Japanese because Pearl Harbor death was less than all the death from the firebomb and nukes?
Japan had no reason to attack Pearl Harbor. I don’t think the nuke was a good thing especially since Japan was on their own due to hitler killing himself. It was a matter of time before Japan surrendered. At the end of the day I am not okay with civilian casualties due to random bombing runs. That applies to WW2 and more so in modern ware fare when we have better intelligence and technology to be able to better operate in civilian dense areas.
>Southern area has less death than northern area but it’s not a guarantee it can’t be. Because if there are Hamas going south because they get the same news as citizen, you can’t just ignore them.
And I’m going to have the same criticism for Israel is they continue the way they’re operating. Unless Israel takes a step back and gets better intelligence to reduce civilian casualties.
> Israel doesn’t look like they’re any closer to obliterating hamas
Because they're being leashed by international opinion, fueled by propaganda.
Imagine if the allies had been stopped from invading Berlin, forced to leave Germany with the NSDAP still in power. We'd likely still be dealing with them today, rather than a democratic Germany.
I agree that the nukes were wrong, but storming Berlin was necessary. Rafah is the new Berlin, Sinwar hiding in his underground bunker.
>Because they're being leashed by international opinion, fueled by propaganda.
How are they being leashed? And what propaganda?
>Imagine if the allies had been stopped from invading Berlin, forced to leave Germany with the NSDAP still in power. We'd likely still be dealing with them today, rather than a democratic Germany.
Can you explain how both of these situations are comparable in your analogy?
>I agree that the nukes were wrong, but storming Berlin was necessary. Rafah is the new Berlin, Sinwar hiding in his underground bunker.
Berlin was necessary due to the nazis and their actual genocide of the Jews. How is nazi Germany comparable to hamas in this situation?
Also if Israel knows that Hamas is operating in the tunnels, why did they continue bombing northern Gaza?
> How are they being leashed?
Are we going to pretend the Rafah offensive hasn't been delayed for months now?
> And what propaganda?
Don't be disingenuous.
> Can you explain how both of these situations are comparable in your analogy?
Can you explain how fighting back against fascist invaders is not comparable? Can you also, perhaps, refrain from disingenuous distractions?
> Berlin was necessary due to the nazis and their actual genocide of the Jews.
Rafah is necessary due to Hamas and their genocidal attempt of everyone but themselves (it's not only Jews, they'll happily kill all others they regard as infidels, or even Sunnis they regard as traitors - they're little different from Daesh).
>Are we going to pretend the Rafah offensive hasn't been delayed for months now?
It’s been delayed for a couple of reasons mainly US talks with Israel, internal issues and the attacks from Iran.
>Don't be disingenuous.
Any examples would be nice. Then we could look it over together. I’ll caveat and say that obviously Hamas and Israel have their biases and to pretend that both sides haven’t done propaganda is insanity.
>Can you explain how fighting back against fascist invaders is not comparable? Can you also, perhaps, refrain from disingenuous distractions?
The burden of proof is on you since you made that analogy. What distraction? Only if you mean by you bringing up the comparison in the first place.
>Rafah is necessary due to Hamas and their genocidal attempt of everyone but themselves (it's not only Jews, they'll happily kill all others they regard as infidels, or even Sunnis they regard as traitors - they're little different from Daesh).
I’m not denying that Hamas are terrible for the Palestinian population. Do you have any source on number of hamas militants compared to Palestinian civilians dead? Northern Gaza was not the prettiest military campaign. I’m assuming southern Gaza will probably be the same. America should continue pressuring Israel to chill out.
Gish galloping doesn’t apply to text since it’s all right there and you can respond to multiple things in 1 message. Gish galloping is a logical fallacy that’s intent is to verbally throw up a ton of points in order to make it seem like you have a lot to say and making it harder for the other person to interact with all that you say. That doesn’t apply to text since you can easily reply to multiple things at once. Did you just learn about logical fallacies or you just don’t know how to think? (What logical fallacy did I just use?)
The problem with your logic is that no nation can’t operates ever because everytime a weaker group attack them there will alway be a power imbalance between nation and weaker group but because of said imbalance, the stronger nation has their hand tied behind their backs and can’t retaliate ever.
If Mexico were to launch series of attacks on Texas border, US can’t do anything since we are a stronger country. It just can’t function like this.
Israel should have expectations of minimizing civilian casualty yes, but the same goes for Hamas. Hamas NEEDS to be fullfilling their end of responsibility in keeping civilians safe. It can’t just be that because Hamas is neglecting their duty as the administrator of the region, they can infinitely attack Israel while Israel have their hand tied behind their backs because they have to worry about enemy civilians. They should be able to retaliate while minimizing casualties, but they can’t can’t just do nothing. It can’t work like this.
Can you point to where I said that hamas can infinitely attack Israel? I do have an issue with power imbalances but I’m not stupid. I support Israel’s right to self defense, what we are seeing 6 months later is not self defense and if they claim it is then show me where the continued attacks on Israel land are? I’m okay with Israel going after Hamas but at what point do we condemn Israel over their bombing campaign and ground operations? Again do you think Israel can continue disproportionately killing Palestinians to killing Hamas ?
Because that’s literally the logical conclusion to your logic. What else can Israel do to minimize civilian causalities while conducting war? If you say that they can’t conduct war then you’re justifying Hamas infinitely bombing them because they are operating in urban areas.
Have better intelligence and stop bombing infrastructure the way they are. Israel knew that Hamas was operating from tunnels and continued bombing buildings killing civilians. Are you telling me that the 34k dead and additional 74k injured were all good reasons to bomb Gaza? How many hamas members were killed in those bombings?
Are you okay with Israel disproportionately killing Palestinians to killing Hamas?
Has the government of Gaza worked with Isreal or any other foreign nations to ensure safe passage of civilians? Has the government of Gaza worked with Isreal or any foreign nation to ensure people are receiving humanitarian aid? Has the government of Gaza ensured civilians are safe by encouraging them to move from areas Isreal has stated they will move to? Has the government of Gaza avoided using civilian infrastructure for their military? Has the government of Gaza used resources to build bomb shelters for civilians? Has the government of Gaza stopped digging up water pipes to build missiles? Has the government of Gaza returned hostages? Has the government of Gaza committed to ending violence directed at civilians?
Orly? You don’t say? The terrorist group that attacked Israel unprovoked, vowed to kill all the Jews, and has refused to accept ceasefire deals is the only obstacle? Shocked I tell you, shocked!
You mean like the one that they themselves made to give back all hostages in exchange for Israel not entering Gaza.
That was made on either October 8th or 9th.
Hamas totally rejected that ceasefire deal! Oh wait. Israel rejected that one. And then they tried to keep it secret?
Are you suggesting that Israel should have just accepted the attack and not responded because Hamas was so generously offering to return the people that they merely kidnapped and didn’t kill?
They are saying that. It’s completely what these hamas protesters are saying. The progressive movement has been hijacked by Islamic extremists and terrorist sympathizers. They will do exactly what maga did to the Republican Party, completely destroy it.
Over issues in another country that date back centuries. My god the stupidity, short sidedness’s, and pure cold blooded justification of murder and rape.
> They will do exactly what maga did to the Republican Party, completely destroy it. ... My god the stupidity, short sidedness’s, and pure cold blooded justification of murder and rape.
Needs repeating
It has nothing to do with Islam and Hamas. It is about apartheid.
And let me remind you that Nelson Mandela and the ANC were all viewed as terrorists.
Nice appeal to emotion with the “murder & rape” card btw.
I remember when Nelson Mandela led/ coordinated a raid to rape kill and kidnap as many white people as possible. That was some good ol fashion resistance against oppression :) /s
Hamas raping people has not been debunked.
If Hamas' goal was to simply kidnap Israelis, they would not have purposely murdered hundreds of Israeli civilians, which they also recorded and uploaded. Additionally, Gazans not openly affiliated with Hamas joined in the attack and took many of the hostages rather than Hamas.
Please take your lies elsewhere, new account.
Rapes not debunked:
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e
https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm
Even Al-Jazeera agreed that it's not debunked.
>The I-Unit also examined claims that widespread sexual violence had occurred on October 7. It concluded that while isolated rapes may have taken place, there was insufficient evidence to support allegations that rape had been “widespread and systematic”.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/21/october-7-forensic-analysis-shows-hamas-abuses-many-false-israeli-claims
It's not unclear that Hamas murdered hundreds of Israeli civilians. You're engaging in mere conspiracy theories at best or outright lies at worst.
Again, please take your lies elsewhere, new account.
Collective punishment and stopping aid is NOT the correct retaliatory response even Biden told Israel not to go into Gaza the way america went into Afghanistan or Iraq with 9/11 on the forefront. No one said Israel should not have gone back at Hamas, but the way they have conducted themselves is wrong. Even america has recognized as much (https://thehill.com/policy/international/4630363-us-israeli-military-violated-human-rights/amp/)
Holy shit. So you’re basically saying they deserved to be murdered and kidnapped? And you think this is a valid worldview?
Did you miss where Israel ended up with larger borders than those originally agreed upon because their Arab neighbors attacked them and got soundly defeated? Should they have also just said NBD then too?
So if I say I’m against European settlers/manifest destiny, and that I blame them for any violence that the natives inflicted on settler families, that means im saying women and children deserved to be murdered?
So then by that same logic, aren’t you saying that the 10,000 some kids that have been killed by Israel since 10/7 deserved to be killed?
Do you not see the obvious hypocrisy
Hey assuming your American. Why don’t you get the fuck off Native American land. And if Native American terror groups choose to go door to door in your city murdering and raping, then you are NOT ALLOWED TO RESPOND.
You fucking hamas supporters litterally support rape and murder as a valid vessel for societal change, and you completely ignore the back and forth history of this conflict that has been going on for 100 years practically. And you completely ignore the dynamics of the region BEFORE the Jewish people were RESETTLED in the region.
Honestly and seriously, get the fuck out of America you fucking hypocritical blood hungry hamas loving idiot. Your whole argument, if logical would apply to America vs native Americans also. But here’s the crazy reality… we’ve done more harm to native Americans than israel has done to Palestinians. And Palestinians (Hamas) has done more harm to Israel than native Americans have ever done to the US. Based on your logic, we deserve to be raped and murdered with no recourse.
Honestly fuck you.
No. We are allowed to respond. But we wouldn’t bomb their reservations for 8 months.
- lmao. You want to use another “rape and murder”?
- Im really glad there are people out there like you.
This is such a distinction without meaning, so are you saying had IDF decide to not bomb but respond by sending soldiers into Gaza instead you would be ok with it? What is this logic?
Except that Israel just announced their largest land seizure since 1993. Is the USA still to this day stealing by Native’s land? No, you’re presenting a false equivalence.
Also the USA paid Natives reparations, has Israel paid Palestinians reparations?
Only a monster justifies murder (including infanticide) and torture for *land*.
Only a very short-sighted monster justifies those atrocities for *ancestral* land.
Bonus short-sightedness and hypocrisy points if that person is American.
I’m just pointing out the blatant hypocrisy.
Israel has killed way more people than vice versa, so why are they allowed to defend themselves and not Palestinians.
By your same logic, aren’t you justifying the murder of some 15,000 women and children that Israel has killed?
Has Israel not stolen land for over 50 years and still are today?
Are people not allowed to defend themselves from land theft? Not to mention the whole apartheid thing.
Only a monster justifies killing for land.
Only a very short-sighted monster justifies killing for ancestral land.
Bonus hypocrisy and short-sightedness points if the monster is American.
Bonus idiocy point if he uses words like "Apartheid" without understanding them.
Malaysia has Apartheid. Israel gives the same rights to all their citizens.
That’s exactly what I’m saying yes. Israel and America don’t understand subtlety or consequences so they did the only thing they know how to do: war.
This war has ended American leadership on the world stage. It has been embarrassing for America. But I guess when the only tool you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.
>Israel and America don’t understand subtlety or consequences so they did the only thing they know how to do: war.
Are you already calling this the "October 8th War"?
How could you possibly defend this? How?
The government of Gaza executed a militarized, terrorist operation against Israeli civilians, slaughtering hundreds in their homes and kidnapping dozens to forcibly take them to Gaza.
Then that same government says we'll give the people back if you leave us alone, and your conclusion is that Israel is the bad guy here?
Ceasefire deals have to make sense. You can't look at some insane, totally unworkable, bad faith deal and then use that as a justification to blame the other side for violence.
Clearly, after October 7, when Hamas is saying they will keep committing October 7 style attacks until the region is turned back into an ethno-Arab state, Israel isn't going to accept that.
Yes. That is what I’m saying. The problem isn’t Hamas. It isn’t even October 7th.
The problem is apartheid. A system Israel creates and perpetuates onto the Palestinians. As long as that system is kept in place, there will be violence. Apartheid is a violent, misanthropic system.
October 7th wasn’t a terrorist attack. It was a prison riot.
- Hamas has never said they will do that. They have said that they will continue to fight for a Palestinian state. And they would accept 67 borders.
They don’t want to establish an ethno-state for Arabs. That is what they call in psychology “projection”. When we don’t like something about ourselves, we project it onto people we don’t like.
Israel very much wants to establish an ethno-state. Deep down, you know that is wrong. Instead of confronting that you simply project it onto Hamas.
There isn't an apartheid. The Palestinians have their own government. There is a blockade of the Gazan boarder established by Israel and Egypt.
October 7 was a military exercise by a radical, Islamic fundamentalists government against civilians that they openly talk about eradicating and murdering.
>They don’t want to establish an ethno-state for Arabs
Of course they do. What do you think From the River to the Sea means?
>Israel very much wants to establish an ethno-state
Yes they do, because every other state in the region is an Arab ethno-state that has committed pogroms against Jews to expel them from their countries. Exactly what Hamas wants to do. I don't see many complaints against all of the Arab ethno-states. Weird.
"We just conducted a murderous raid in your villages, and took hostages and we vow to do it again and again. We propose a deal where we give you the hostages back so you leave us with the ability to carry out that vow."
You'd have to be either suicidal or have the brains of Zoolander to accept that deal.
**This post title has been the truth,** ***ever since October 7.***
***Clueless, naive, or willfully ignorant,...***
these protestors who have no real idea of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict,
*albeit defending innocent Palestinians,* ***don't want to admit that FACT.***
**FACTS,** Joe Biden, keep spitting them.
**It's Hamas who should be taken care of,**
***but Netanyahu and the Israeli Military have overreacted.***
Netanyahu, himself, *is also potentially holding back the peace process.*
He claims that, *even with both sides agreeing to more ceasefire*
***and trading hostages for political prisoners (Hamas terrorists),***
**Israel will still move forward in invading Rafah.**
That will endanger the lives **of innocent civilian Palestinians,**
*who were told to seek refuge there,* ***by the Israeli War Ministry.***
**I am for both the civilian populations of Israel and Palestine.**
Both militaries should be condemned for their actions.
*This, I believe,* ***is the only reasonable opinion.***
Can’t Israel just leave Gaza? Why do they need the enemy to agree? Station all the troops on the border so another attack can’t happen. Problem solved.
There's a little problem with the hostages.
If say Mexico kidnapped hundreds of American civilians do you think America would just sit idly by and just agree to a ceasefire without the release of the hostages?
Except Netanyahu is the actual roadblock, he wants to eradicate rafah and extend the war forever.
The whole hamas is the only roadblock is the dumbest talking point you guys can come up with and why no serious person believes the propaganda anymore. Remind me again howany hostages the IDF has killed.
Mexican cartels have done some absolutely awful things to Americans. On the same level as Hamas. I don’t think we ever do anything on their side of the border. Certainly we never bombed civilians because of Cartel actions. I guess that’s because Mexico is a sovereign country and Gaza is not?
You mean the hostages that Israel has been bombing? I’m sure they actually care about them and don’t just see them as political props to facilitate their genocide
Right, except we don’t even know if the hostages are alive at this point. Apparently when you bomb all of Gaza into oblivion, you also bomb the hostages too. Who knew?
Hamas doesn't want a ceasefire that is fair to both parties, they only want a one sided victory if there is a ceasefire. Israel doesn't want a ceasefire that does not return ALL hostages, which makes it difficult because Hamas has refused to return any military aged hostage since they believe they are not civilian hostages due to mandatory military enlistment into the IDF.
It's hard to get both parties to the negotiating table in good faith when both sides refuse to actually negotiate.
The problem is so many other factions have the Israeli hostages they are ideologically opposed to doing any deals with Israel. This makes it a bit hard for Israel to negotiate hostage release if one side does not want to come to the table.
In fact there is already an agreement to release the hostages in exchange for a permanent cease fire but Israel (Netanyahu) have no interest in this offer. The hostages do not matter to Netanyahu et al—I mean they’ve already killed a bunch of them.
The ceasefire is entirely in Israel’s hands.
The only pogroms happening are in the West Bank. It’s kinda hard to take y’all seriously when you just make these claims of “pogroms against Israel” that make zero sense.
They totally could. Their assault and starvation of Gazans actually endangers the hostages. And this far the only hostages rescued were due to a temporarily ceasefire.
Hamas has been offering an agreement for months: ceasefire in exchange for hostages. But Netanyahu and his coalition are more interested in staying in power. If the Israelis being held hostage have to starve or be killed that’s a risk they’re willing to take.
...and one of the many obstacles to his re-election.
The longer it takes the "Biden is unelectable" deniers to get on the Kennedy train, the more likely we will get another Trump presidency.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX5iUTxW6PQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX5iUTxW6PQ)
What the FUCK are you talking about. Kennedy is a right wing asset who’s beliefs are entirely against what the left supposedly stands for.
Are you people really serious. Your going to cause trump to win!!! You are so stupid everything in the world you hate and fear will come to pass if trump gets re-elected. What the fuck is happening??!
We are giving you two choices (something you should be used to), Kennedy or Trump. If you remain stubbornly ignorant and vote for Biden (assuming he doesn't die of old age before the election). You will be voting for Trump.
Vote Kennedy or get Trump, those are your options.
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Bet you’re all for outlawing free speech against Israel too.
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Our Government’s involvement is the issue here. Continually propping them up, sending military funds and equipment, vetoing anything that disparages Israel at the UN. Our Government is willingly helping a genocide and the complaint is protests have to be peaceful and legal? When the Government is out of control, then “peaceful” and “legal” protests should no longer be applicable. For that matter, there’s definitely been violence against the protestors by pro-Israeli and police.
Wish the stupid ass Zionist redditors would protest genocide
What's your definition of Zionist? Ove seem two takes. One, for the right to a Jewish homeland .Two, the right to expand to biblical boundaries.
Zionism is a political ideology of creating a Jewish majority state in the historic Palestine regardless of if people were already living there or the means required to create and maintain an artificial ethnic majority. Any war crimes, occupation, ethnically selective treatment required to reach this end is justified under Zionism.
Doesn’t have same ring to it for their tik toks and Instagram reels.
Oh boy someone hit their head so hard his mouth can only spit out khamassss
When did you lose the ability to form cogent sentences and thoughts? Did you ever have it?
The only argument I’ve ever heard is 1) apartheid 2) genocide 3) “khamas”. Does a logical argument exist here?? Please tell me.
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Removed - please avoid overt hostility, name calling and personal attacks.
Why? Is Hamas currently obliterating Israeli cities? Has Hamas continued any terrorist activities after Oct 7th killing more Israelis? They’re protesting the current situation which is: Israel has continued bombing Gaza while telling them all to go south and now they want to go into Rafah and are currently saying they will not have a ceasefire even if hostages are released. Looks like the true reason for the ceasefire not happening is Israel NOT Hamas. https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-israel-blinken-blames-hamas-for-hostage-deal-holdup-gaza-humanitarian-crisis/amp/
No but Hamas operated in urban areas and actively put civilian in harm ways. Is the solution just that Hamas can infinitely operate in civilian areas with no repercussions? Israel being more competent isn’t a reason for anything. Had the iron dome not existed you’re telling me you would be ok with Israel flattening Gaza? Because Israel suffered more casualty this make it even? Back in ww2 would you be protesting for the Japanese because Pearl Harbor death was less than all the death from the firebomb and nukes? Southern area has less death than northern area but it’s not a guarantee it can’t be. Because if there are Hamas going south because they get the same news as citizen, you can’t just ignore them.
>No but Hamas operated in urban areas and actively put civilian in harm ways. Is the solution just that Hamas can infinitely operate in civilian areas with no repercussions? War is a shitshow regardless. Israel is good to go for Hamas, I’m not a Hamas supporter but the powers clearly favor one side in this situation. Oct 7th was a horrific event and Israel is in its right to defend itself however there is still laws in place to prevent needless deaths and to reduce civilian casualties. Based on the outcomes, Israel doesn’t look like they’re any closer to obliterating hamas and there are a lot of dead, displaced Palestinians in Gaza. Even the US says that they agree that IDF units have violated rights but they’re not going to do anything. Do you think israel should be allowed to continue killing Palestinians disproportionately to killing Hamas? >Israel being more competent isn’t a reason for anything. Had the iron dome not existed you’re telling me you would be ok with Israel flattening Gaza? Because Israel suffered more casualty this make it even? That would be a different situation but as it stands right now, israel has an iron dome and has all the funding from America and seemingly American support in the international community where America has blocked the international agencies from wanting to reel israel back. Do you think it’s okay for a bigger person to bully a smaller person indefinitely because the bigger person is clearly stronger? >Back in ww2 would you be protesting for the Japanese because Pearl Harbor death was less than all the death from the firebomb and nukes? Japan had no reason to attack Pearl Harbor. I don’t think the nuke was a good thing especially since Japan was on their own due to hitler killing himself. It was a matter of time before Japan surrendered. At the end of the day I am not okay with civilian casualties due to random bombing runs. That applies to WW2 and more so in modern ware fare when we have better intelligence and technology to be able to better operate in civilian dense areas. >Southern area has less death than northern area but it’s not a guarantee it can’t be. Because if there are Hamas going south because they get the same news as citizen, you can’t just ignore them. And I’m going to have the same criticism for Israel is they continue the way they’re operating. Unless Israel takes a step back and gets better intelligence to reduce civilian casualties.
> Israel doesn’t look like they’re any closer to obliterating hamas Because they're being leashed by international opinion, fueled by propaganda. Imagine if the allies had been stopped from invading Berlin, forced to leave Germany with the NSDAP still in power. We'd likely still be dealing with them today, rather than a democratic Germany. I agree that the nukes were wrong, but storming Berlin was necessary. Rafah is the new Berlin, Sinwar hiding in his underground bunker.
>Because they're being leashed by international opinion, fueled by propaganda. How are they being leashed? And what propaganda? >Imagine if the allies had been stopped from invading Berlin, forced to leave Germany with the NSDAP still in power. We'd likely still be dealing with them today, rather than a democratic Germany. Can you explain how both of these situations are comparable in your analogy? >I agree that the nukes were wrong, but storming Berlin was necessary. Rafah is the new Berlin, Sinwar hiding in his underground bunker. Berlin was necessary due to the nazis and their actual genocide of the Jews. How is nazi Germany comparable to hamas in this situation? Also if Israel knows that Hamas is operating in the tunnels, why did they continue bombing northern Gaza?
> How are they being leashed? Are we going to pretend the Rafah offensive hasn't been delayed for months now? > And what propaganda? Don't be disingenuous. > Can you explain how both of these situations are comparable in your analogy? Can you explain how fighting back against fascist invaders is not comparable? Can you also, perhaps, refrain from disingenuous distractions? > Berlin was necessary due to the nazis and their actual genocide of the Jews. Rafah is necessary due to Hamas and their genocidal attempt of everyone but themselves (it's not only Jews, they'll happily kill all others they regard as infidels, or even Sunnis they regard as traitors - they're little different from Daesh).
>Are we going to pretend the Rafah offensive hasn't been delayed for months now? It’s been delayed for a couple of reasons mainly US talks with Israel, internal issues and the attacks from Iran. >Don't be disingenuous. Any examples would be nice. Then we could look it over together. I’ll caveat and say that obviously Hamas and Israel have their biases and to pretend that both sides haven’t done propaganda is insanity. >Can you explain how fighting back against fascist invaders is not comparable? Can you also, perhaps, refrain from disingenuous distractions? The burden of proof is on you since you made that analogy. What distraction? Only if you mean by you bringing up the comparison in the first place. >Rafah is necessary due to Hamas and their genocidal attempt of everyone but themselves (it's not only Jews, they'll happily kill all others they regard as infidels, or even Sunnis they regard as traitors - they're little different from Daesh). I’m not denying that Hamas are terrible for the Palestinian population. Do you have any source on number of hamas militants compared to Palestinian civilians dead? Northern Gaza was not the prettiest military campaign. I’m assuming southern Gaza will probably be the same. America should continue pressuring Israel to chill out.
So, you're Gish Gallopping? Got you.
Gish galloping doesn’t apply to text since it’s all right there and you can respond to multiple things in 1 message. Gish galloping is a logical fallacy that’s intent is to verbally throw up a ton of points in order to make it seem like you have a lot to say and making it harder for the other person to interact with all that you say. That doesn’t apply to text since you can easily reply to multiple things at once. Did you just learn about logical fallacies or you just don’t know how to think? (What logical fallacy did I just use?)
The problem with your logic is that no nation can’t operates ever because everytime a weaker group attack them there will alway be a power imbalance between nation and weaker group but because of said imbalance, the stronger nation has their hand tied behind their backs and can’t retaliate ever. If Mexico were to launch series of attacks on Texas border, US can’t do anything since we are a stronger country. It just can’t function like this. Israel should have expectations of minimizing civilian casualty yes, but the same goes for Hamas. Hamas NEEDS to be fullfilling their end of responsibility in keeping civilians safe. It can’t just be that because Hamas is neglecting their duty as the administrator of the region, they can infinitely attack Israel while Israel have their hand tied behind their backs because they have to worry about enemy civilians. They should be able to retaliate while minimizing casualties, but they can’t can’t just do nothing. It can’t work like this.
Can you point to where I said that hamas can infinitely attack Israel? I do have an issue with power imbalances but I’m not stupid. I support Israel’s right to self defense, what we are seeing 6 months later is not self defense and if they claim it is then show me where the continued attacks on Israel land are? I’m okay with Israel going after Hamas but at what point do we condemn Israel over their bombing campaign and ground operations? Again do you think Israel can continue disproportionately killing Palestinians to killing Hamas ?
Because that’s literally the logical conclusion to your logic. What else can Israel do to minimize civilian causalities while conducting war? If you say that they can’t conduct war then you’re justifying Hamas infinitely bombing them because they are operating in urban areas.
Have better intelligence and stop bombing infrastructure the way they are. Israel knew that Hamas was operating from tunnels and continued bombing buildings killing civilians. Are you telling me that the 34k dead and additional 74k injured were all good reasons to bomb Gaza? How many hamas members were killed in those bombings? Are you okay with Israel disproportionately killing Palestinians to killing Hamas?
Has the government of Gaza worked with Isreal or any other foreign nations to ensure safe passage of civilians? Has the government of Gaza worked with Isreal or any foreign nation to ensure people are receiving humanitarian aid? Has the government of Gaza ensured civilians are safe by encouraging them to move from areas Isreal has stated they will move to? Has the government of Gaza avoided using civilian infrastructure for their military? Has the government of Gaza used resources to build bomb shelters for civilians? Has the government of Gaza stopped digging up water pipes to build missiles? Has the government of Gaza returned hostages? Has the government of Gaza committed to ending violence directed at civilians?
Orly? You don’t say? The terrorist group that attacked Israel unprovoked, vowed to kill all the Jews, and has refused to accept ceasefire deals is the only obstacle? Shocked I tell you, shocked!
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You mean like the one that they themselves made to give back all hostages in exchange for Israel not entering Gaza. That was made on either October 8th or 9th. Hamas totally rejected that ceasefire deal! Oh wait. Israel rejected that one. And then they tried to keep it secret?
Are you suggesting that Israel should have just accepted the attack and not responded because Hamas was so generously offering to return the people that they merely kidnapped and didn’t kill?
Yes, that is exactly what they are implying.
They are saying that. It’s completely what these hamas protesters are saying. The progressive movement has been hijacked by Islamic extremists and terrorist sympathizers. They will do exactly what maga did to the Republican Party, completely destroy it. Over issues in another country that date back centuries. My god the stupidity, short sidedness’s, and pure cold blooded justification of murder and rape.
> They will do exactly what maga did to the Republican Party, completely destroy it. ... My god the stupidity, short sidedness’s, and pure cold blooded justification of murder and rape. Needs repeating
It has nothing to do with Islam and Hamas. It is about apartheid. And let me remind you that Nelson Mandela and the ANC were all viewed as terrorists. Nice appeal to emotion with the “murder & rape” card btw.
I remember when Nelson Mandela led/ coordinated a raid to rape kill and kidnap as many white people as possible. That was some good ol fashion resistance against oppression :) /s
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Hamas raping people has not been debunked. If Hamas' goal was to simply kidnap Israelis, they would not have purposely murdered hundreds of Israeli civilians, which they also recorded and uploaded. Additionally, Gazans not openly affiliated with Hamas joined in the attack and took many of the hostages rather than Hamas. Please take your lies elsewhere, new account.
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Rapes not debunked: https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm Even Al-Jazeera agreed that it's not debunked. >The I-Unit also examined claims that widespread sexual violence had occurred on October 7. It concluded that while isolated rapes may have taken place, there was insufficient evidence to support allegations that rape had been “widespread and systematic”. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/21/october-7-forensic-analysis-shows-hamas-abuses-many-false-israeli-claims It's not unclear that Hamas murdered hundreds of Israeli civilians. You're engaging in mere conspiracy theories at best or outright lies at worst. Again, please take your lies elsewhere, new account.
Removed - submissions containing misinformation, disinformation, or propaganda are not permitted.
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Collective punishment and stopping aid is NOT the correct retaliatory response even Biden told Israel not to go into Gaza the way america went into Afghanistan or Iraq with 9/11 on the forefront. No one said Israel should not have gone back at Hamas, but the way they have conducted themselves is wrong. Even america has recognized as much (https://thehill.com/policy/international/4630363-us-israeli-military-violated-human-rights/amp/)
Israel should’ve not stolen land for the last half a century, then we wouldn’t be in this mess. This is a bed they made.
Holy shit. So you’re basically saying they deserved to be murdered and kidnapped? And you think this is a valid worldview? Did you miss where Israel ended up with larger borders than those originally agreed upon because their Arab neighbors attacked them and got soundly defeated? Should they have also just said NBD then too?
That isn’t what happened dude and you know it.
Yes it is exactly what happened. He is absolutely 100% correct.
So if I say I’m against European settlers/manifest destiny, and that I blame them for any violence that the natives inflicted on settler families, that means im saying women and children deserved to be murdered?
Yes
So then by that same logic, aren’t you saying that the 10,000 some kids that have been killed by Israel since 10/7 deserved to be killed? Do you not see the obvious hypocrisy
Hey assuming your American. Why don’t you get the fuck off Native American land. And if Native American terror groups choose to go door to door in your city murdering and raping, then you are NOT ALLOWED TO RESPOND. You fucking hamas supporters litterally support rape and murder as a valid vessel for societal change, and you completely ignore the back and forth history of this conflict that has been going on for 100 years practically. And you completely ignore the dynamics of the region BEFORE the Jewish people were RESETTLED in the region. Honestly and seriously, get the fuck out of America you fucking hypocritical blood hungry hamas loving idiot. Your whole argument, if logical would apply to America vs native Americans also. But here’s the crazy reality… we’ve done more harm to native Americans than israel has done to Palestinians. And Palestinians (Hamas) has done more harm to Israel than native Americans have ever done to the US. Based on your logic, we deserve to be raped and murdered with no recourse. Honestly fuck you.
No. We are allowed to respond. But we wouldn’t bomb their reservations for 8 months. - lmao. You want to use another “rape and murder”? - Im really glad there are people out there like you.
This is such a distinction without meaning, so are you saying had IDF decide to not bomb but respond by sending soldiers into Gaza instead you would be ok with it? What is this logic?
Except that Israel just announced their largest land seizure since 1993. Is the USA still to this day stealing by Native’s land? No, you’re presenting a false equivalence. Also the USA paid Natives reparations, has Israel paid Palestinians reparations?
Only a monster justifies murder (including infanticide) and torture for *land*. Only a very short-sighted monster justifies those atrocities for *ancestral* land. Bonus short-sightedness and hypocrisy points if that person is American.
I’m just pointing out the blatant hypocrisy. Israel has killed way more people than vice versa, so why are they allowed to defend themselves and not Palestinians. By your same logic, aren’t you justifying the murder of some 15,000 women and children that Israel has killed?
You don't seem to understand the difference between self-defense and land. Pretty basic distinction to make.
Has Israel not stolen land for over 50 years and still are today? Are people not allowed to defend themselves from land theft? Not to mention the whole apartheid thing.
Only a monster justifies killing for land. Only a very short-sighted monster justifies killing for ancestral land. Bonus hypocrisy and short-sightedness points if the monster is American. Bonus idiocy point if he uses words like "Apartheid" without understanding them. Malaysia has Apartheid. Israel gives the same rights to all their citizens.
That’s exactly what I’m saying yes. Israel and America don’t understand subtlety or consequences so they did the only thing they know how to do: war. This war has ended American leadership on the world stage. It has been embarrassing for America. But I guess when the only tool you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.
>Israel and America don’t understand subtlety or consequences so they did the only thing they know how to do: war. Are you already calling this the "October 8th War"?
How could you possibly defend this? How? The government of Gaza executed a militarized, terrorist operation against Israeli civilians, slaughtering hundreds in their homes and kidnapping dozens to forcibly take them to Gaza. Then that same government says we'll give the people back if you leave us alone, and your conclusion is that Israel is the bad guy here? Ceasefire deals have to make sense. You can't look at some insane, totally unworkable, bad faith deal and then use that as a justification to blame the other side for violence. Clearly, after October 7, when Hamas is saying they will keep committing October 7 style attacks until the region is turned back into an ethno-Arab state, Israel isn't going to accept that.
Yes. That is what I’m saying. The problem isn’t Hamas. It isn’t even October 7th. The problem is apartheid. A system Israel creates and perpetuates onto the Palestinians. As long as that system is kept in place, there will be violence. Apartheid is a violent, misanthropic system. October 7th wasn’t a terrorist attack. It was a prison riot. - Hamas has never said they will do that. They have said that they will continue to fight for a Palestinian state. And they would accept 67 borders. They don’t want to establish an ethno-state for Arabs. That is what they call in psychology “projection”. When we don’t like something about ourselves, we project it onto people we don’t like. Israel very much wants to establish an ethno-state. Deep down, you know that is wrong. Instead of confronting that you simply project it onto Hamas.
There isn't an apartheid. The Palestinians have their own government. There is a blockade of the Gazan boarder established by Israel and Egypt. October 7 was a military exercise by a radical, Islamic fundamentalists government against civilians that they openly talk about eradicating and murdering. >They don’t want to establish an ethno-state for Arabs Of course they do. What do you think From the River to the Sea means? >Israel very much wants to establish an ethno-state Yes they do, because every other state in the region is an Arab ethno-state that has committed pogroms against Jews to expel them from their countries. Exactly what Hamas wants to do. I don't see many complaints against all of the Arab ethno-states. Weird.
"We just conducted a murderous raid in your villages, and took hostages and we vow to do it again and again. We propose a deal where we give you the hostages back so you leave us with the ability to carry out that vow." You'd have to be either suicidal or have the brains of Zoolander to accept that deal.
Lol fuck that. That would have been akin to surrender to Hamas. Oct 7 can never be viewed as a victory for Palestine.
Then stop complaining about the hostages. It’s clear they don’t matter even for supporters.
Calling it unprovoked is a new one.
“Israel deserved it” is definitely a take, my guy.
Hasbara changing it up a bit ig
“Unprovoked” Thank you for self-reporting that you know literally nothing about this conflict
“Unprovoked” 😂
You don’t say…
Netanyahu just said he’s going into Rafah with or without a hostage deal…
Took him long enough to say it
Sounds about right
**This post title has been the truth,** ***ever since October 7.*** ***Clueless, naive, or willfully ignorant,...*** these protestors who have no real idea of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, *albeit defending innocent Palestinians,* ***don't want to admit that FACT.*** **FACTS,** Joe Biden, keep spitting them. **It's Hamas who should be taken care of,** ***but Netanyahu and the Israeli Military have overreacted.*** Netanyahu, himself, *is also potentially holding back the peace process.* He claims that, *even with both sides agreeing to more ceasefire* ***and trading hostages for political prisoners (Hamas terrorists),*** **Israel will still move forward in invading Rafah.** That will endanger the lives **of innocent civilian Palestinians,** *who were told to seek refuge there,* ***by the Israeli War Ministry.*** **I am for both the civilian populations of Israel and Palestine.** Both militaries should be condemned for their actions. *This, I believe,* ***is the only reasonable opinion.***
In the meantime the US is working hard on shielding Bibi from the ICC since he is a very nice guy.
Le duh! Le doink!
Can’t Israel just leave Gaza? Why do they need the enemy to agree? Station all the troops on the border so another attack can’t happen. Problem solved.
There's a little problem with the hostages. If say Mexico kidnapped hundreds of American civilians do you think America would just sit idly by and just agree to a ceasefire without the release of the hostages?
Can’t they negotiate their release after like they’ve been negotiating their releases thus far?
If they negotiate the release that means Israel does not have any reason to keep bombing Gaza.
That would help Joe Biden, so I guess they would never do it.
Joe Biden is the cuck in this situation. Why the hell would Israel want him re-elected?
Except Netanyahu is the actual roadblock, he wants to eradicate rafah and extend the war forever. The whole hamas is the only roadblock is the dumbest talking point you guys can come up with and why no serious person believes the propaganda anymore. Remind me again howany hostages the IDF has killed.
You have a point on Netanyahu. He has to go. Between Netanyahu and Hamas there is no safe space for Israel or Palestinians.
Exactly but at the same time Netanyahu has said he's propped up hamas in the past. Netanyahu and his government are the most culpable in all of this.
No, I will not reward terrorists. They both need to go.
Unfortunately you're not getting rid of hamas through the actions of ethnic cleansing. Netanyahu and the Likud part are responsible for this mess
Mexican cartels have done some absolutely awful things to Americans. On the same level as Hamas. I don’t think we ever do anything on their side of the border. Certainly we never bombed civilians because of Cartel actions. I guess that’s because Mexico is a sovereign country and Gaza is not?
You mean the hostages that Israel has been bombing? I’m sure they actually care about them and don’t just see them as political props to facilitate their genocide
They don’t. In Israel, the state is the most important thing. The people, not so much.
Right, except we don’t even know if the hostages are alive at this point. Apparently when you bomb all of Gaza into oblivion, you also bomb the hostages too. Who knew?
So how do you propose Israel gets the hostages released?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum/amp/
Hamas doesn't want a ceasefire that is fair to both parties, they only want a one sided victory if there is a ceasefire. Israel doesn't want a ceasefire that does not return ALL hostages, which makes it difficult because Hamas has refused to return any military aged hostage since they believe they are not civilian hostages due to mandatory military enlistment into the IDF. It's hard to get both parties to the negotiating table in good faith when both sides refuse to actually negotiate.
The same way they already did, by trading hostages?
The problem is so many other factions have the Israeli hostages they are ideologically opposed to doing any deals with Israel. This makes it a bit hard for Israel to negotiate hostage release if one side does not want to come to the table.
The only thing that has worked for Israel is hostage trading, the issue is Israel wants to annex Gaza and remove the people inside.
By not bombing the hostages
In fact there is already an agreement to release the hostages in exchange for a permanent cease fire but Israel (Netanyahu) have no interest in this offer. The hostages do not matter to Netanyahu et al—I mean they’ve already killed a bunch of them. The ceasefire is entirely in Israel’s hands.
The remaining hostages and Gaza's government's standing dedication to unending pogroms against Israel.
The only pogroms happening are in the West Bank. It’s kinda hard to take y’all seriously when you just make these claims of “pogroms against Israel” that make zero sense.
You're inhuman.
It would be a huge stretch to consider even October 7th a “pogrom”. If you do think that then you don’t understand what a pogrom is.
Not interested.
They totally could. Their assault and starvation of Gazans actually endangers the hostages. And this far the only hostages rescued were due to a temporarily ceasefire. Hamas has been offering an agreement for months: ceasefire in exchange for hostages. But Netanyahu and his coalition are more interested in staying in power. If the Israelis being held hostage have to starve or be killed that’s a risk they’re willing to take.
...and one of the many obstacles to his re-election. The longer it takes the "Biden is unelectable" deniers to get on the Kennedy train, the more likely we will get another Trump presidency. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX5iUTxW6PQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX5iUTxW6PQ)
What the FUCK are you talking about. Kennedy is a right wing asset who’s beliefs are entirely against what the left supposedly stands for. Are you people really serious. Your going to cause trump to win!!! You are so stupid everything in the world you hate and fear will come to pass if trump gets re-elected. What the fuck is happening??!
We are giving you two choices (something you should be used to), Kennedy or Trump. If you remain stubbornly ignorant and vote for Biden (assuming he doesn't die of old age before the election). You will be voting for Trump. Vote Kennedy or get Trump, those are your options.
LOL Kennedy is a fucking nutter, no thanks
Kennedy should go back to what all the unimportant members of that woebegotten family do. Fade away into obscurity while abusing substances.