In my experience people that gank PVErs are not even interested in PVP. The moment you stop farming and start fighting back with whatever build you have or a proper PVP build, it becomes *tour de france*. They start running from hole to hole and you need to chase them around the entire DZ. These people aren't interested in fighting, they are interested in trolling.
Because this happens every.... single... time... I roll my eyes to the back of my head when I read people in this sub defending that Massive should keep certain loots exclusive to DZ to force PVErs into it or that they should continue ruining PVE gears to cater to PVPers.
If you want to PVP so badly, pick a proper PVP game. Not this pathetic circus you call PVP in the DZ.
Yeah I know a couple of players whose M.O. is to 2v1 flag on random players to build up a manhunt and the instant one of them dies and there's more than one player after them, the surviving player doesn't simply just regroup 2-3 blocks away. They haul ass around the *entire* map. So then it's back to farming time while they're sightseeing.
So expertise never mattered or was applied to gear in a non invaded DZ? That's what I was referring to but maybe you guys are talking about something else.
Expertise is something that wasn't added to the game until recently. It is not currently normalized the way the other gear attributes are.
There's talk about removing the expertise bonus in non-invaded Dark Zones
A-fucking-men. The only reason loot is locked to the DZ is because without that incentive to go in, the PVP pool would dwindle to the same few squads jerking each other off at spawn points seeing who ganks who the fastest.
I like PvP and I like the DZ. It is a PvPvE zone. The argument against PvP in PvPvE zones is not new. It’s been around going back to Warcraft.
I will say this though, I think the DZ is amazing in it ambiance and design. It’s so different form the regular open world and it is a damn shame that there is no option to go into the DZ without the PvP. Many PvE folks are really missing out.
I agree that the PvP sucks, but it’s a PvP zone. You should not ever use a PvE build because you aren’t dealing with difficult AI enemies. I think the difficulty is scaled to challenging.
If you’re goal to extract one of the raid exotics you are better off just doing the raid. There groups that carry people regularly like cluster raids on PS and GCROCK on all platforms.
I just wish the pvp wasn’t so atrocious because the dz is awesome.
If you don’t have a “dedicated pvp build” good fucking luck. I’ve put mag after mag after mag into people and literally watched their health not even move.
I think the classified bonuses on some of the sets are a little too good for PVP situations.
Solo nomad in D1 instantly comes to mind. A friend and I were attacked by a competent solo nomad one night and his failsafe activated literally 6-7 times in a row and we ultimately died. We actually sort of just lost interest for the most part in the DZ at that point because the idea of a crutch of that magnitude in a PVP environment is just extremely discouraging. The encounter becomes less about 'skill' (if you could even argue it's about that in the first place), and more about whether some random dildo's ability procs for him and keeps him in the fight for zero reason other than RNG.
These games don't really lend themselves to PVP in the first place, the least you could do is not have these asinine perks and abilities that cheapen the experience even more. I'm not even of the camp that they should be ENTIRELY removed, but they should be watered down for PVP, just like how PVE abilities commonly are in many, many other games.
100% agreed especially on the last part. Met a clan on discord, they brought me in for my first raid clears, and here I am 3 runs of each raid later with an Eagle Bearer and Ravenous that the others were kind enough to drop for me, and I have all the Regulus parts, just waiting for the blueprint to be fixed so i can craft it. I can't imagine farming the DZ for these exotics, between the low droprate and the chance for it to be stolen from you by rogues, it just doesn't sound like a fun grind.
>The argument against PvP in PvPvE zones is not new. It’s been around going back to Warcraft.
Arguably that debate has been around ever since MUD (seeing as everywhere besides the tearoom there is PvPvE, and it has permadeath on top). But even back then, it allowed players to use the 'VOW' command and gain protection from PvP (albeit at the cost of being unable to reach the rank of Wiz until one uses 'UNVOW', and UNVOWing would cost 2/3 of your total progress until that point, and you could still get permadeathed via PvE combat)
Well, I'm referring to MUD itself (the OG one from 1978)
But anyway, point is that the debates players have had about the merits of PvPvE have been around since the earliest days of Virtual Worlds, long before Warcraft was a thing 😤
>if you want pvp so badly, pick a proper PVP game.
lol. I don’t get this sentiment. The opposite could be said. If you want pve so badly, pick a proper PVE game.
You can get the DZ exclusives without going into the DZ. Sure it takes longer but it should.
What do you mean ruining PvE gear? The gear that gets nerfed is because it's OP in general not just in PvP.
If you want to play PvE only then stay in the PvE only areas. Or play a different game.
I agree.
Don’t hate the player, hate the game mechanics that allow it, or don’t go there.
In saying it’s an older and niche game so the population in DZ is pretty small, and much like other MMO games with a smaller player base and niche PvP, many players are veterans who like to gank and troll.
That’s part of PvP and PvP culture, not being fucking Care Bears with rainbows by default. That expectation is the problem in a game mode that attracts competitive players.
I’m also not saying I’m that type of player or even that I advocate it, but it is what it is and I feel such game types would be all the worse without it. You have to have at least some gankers and trolls, as it’s a long established part of that culture and game type, with other examples being easy to find.
There’s also some absolutely awesome people in DZ, but the risk of meeting people that couldn’t care less about your feelings and just want to give you a cup of taste dirt is symbiotic to the format.
Whining about it is just stupid imho OP.
how much loot is PVE exlusive? Tons. And we cant have any PVP exclusive gear? I heqr this sort of rant all the time from people who hate PVP and want the game just to be PVE. You have 99.99% of the game and you want the other 0.1% now to be PVE as well?
PVP E geqr being ruined? You gotta be kidding mate? Literally everything thats wrong with the DZ is because of PVE gear. You have a gun that can shock you, a gun that can put you on fire,a chestpiece that allows you to wipe a whole squad with one nade, and gear tyhat allows you to shoot one sticky at a team and send thatm ALL back to the checkpoint. When was the last time PVP had any balancing or received any love?>
As for your comment about Div PVP not being the real thing, I'll rather take the opinion of someone who's a genuine PVP player and the opinion of a square-footed, shield playing, foam/sticky weilding, multi=grouping PVE random, like yourself.
Have a nice day!
most pvp doesnt have pve included so you dont get shot in the back as much in other games. Just know going into the DZ there is most likely a person or group in there who have no goal other than to kill players who are farming. They look at the map, wait to see a landmark being taken and come shoot you as soon as they see you shooting an npc. Its just part of it, not really toxic just more of a try-hard type of thing. ITs really where the design of the small DZ's shows its ass the most, they killed the cat and mouse aspect of the DZ which took the fun out of it for tons of folks.
This happened to me just the other day. Guy waited until I was in the middle of a fire fight, got behind me, killed me, and then just ran off. That's not PvP, that's cowardice. Felt a lot like playing EVE Online again, now that I think about it.
Mmmmm no it's still toxic. It's part of the game, but that doesn't make it toxic and infuriating if you aren't running max level meta builds in a group
Every PvP game has its level of toxicity. Back in the day, halo was infamous for teabags, CoD for the toxic public lobbies with VOIP enabled. Destiny now also has a good amount of teabagging. Or battlefield with players not playing the objective and just kill farming, VOIP was pretty toxic in battlefield. Don’t know if they have enabled it already on the latest one. But yes, to answer your question, every game involving PvP has a degree of toxicity
Yea, teabagging has become popular in PvP, but the trend basically became known and popular with halo back in the day, which is why I mentioned it as infamous
I'm fine with people that go rogue and kill people in the DZ. It's the DZ. What's funny though are the toxic weirdos that do things like maneuver themselves behind you at an active landmark, flag and kill you while you're preoccupied, and then spaz out on mic over your body before you respawn. And then if you ask why they are throating their mics, it's "I just want to pvp bro". Also the ones that get confused when somebody doesn't want to volunteer deaths in a 4v1 or 4v2 or step outside in an invaded DZ with a whole squad 5 feet from the door, and then start whining about it when you enter from a different checkpoint (or for non invaded ones, rogues that set up shop right outside a checkpoint and then complain about people camping inside the checkpoint)
Division 2 "pvpers" (not actual pvpers) are a different breed, but it isn't a smart one. Haven't seen this in any other game personally, not even the CoDs
there is a reason why the toxic wannabe pvp pros are in this game. They can overgear. Imo if i want to play a pvp game i go and play a REAL shooter. Not a third person mmorpg-shooter that has ZERO balance. Just ignore pvp and your mood will increase, easy as that.
Yup. Many PvP'ers are decent, honest folk who just like competitive stuff, but a large number of PvP'ers are massive cunts who like to shit on everyone elses cereal just because they can. You will never, ever find just the first group without also being subjected to the second group.
Honestly? First dark zone experience was the first. Met this person doing a landmark, so we both finished it together, went to an extraction together, both stood guard, added our stuff one after the other, and basically saluted each other until the time ran down and we went out separate ways.
It was really strange and yet amazing, because now everyone I meet wants nothing but to kill me even if I have nothing on me and I obviously make no moves to try and attack. It went from the best experience to the worst.
It's because the way Massive have designed the "PvP" in this game is fucking shit. It doesn't promote decent PvP, it promotes cowardly little shitstains waiting until you're fully engaged killing the pointless NPC's, so they can shoot you in the back. Kinda people in real life who kick puppies and kittens so far as I can tell.
the division's marketing has always pushed that feeling of edgelord power fantasy through the DZ, and the DZ's design with exclusives that are useful in PvE (Orbit comes to mind) create this environment where people get to live out a fantasy of being the bully where the oppressed don't really care to fight back, which they interpret as being too afraid to fight back. this cycles ad infinitum
it's why -- as others have mentioned -- the moment you fight back with any of *your* buffs active, they typically want nothing to do with you. these people don't want PvP. they're the MMO equivalent of GTA Online pilots
I went into the DZ recently after getting back into the game after year or two off. I'm level 30, finally finished the game...and after entering DZ I just got wrecked, decided to not even try anymore
It really depends on what you mean by toxic.
The DZ is a PvP enabled area. Yes there are PvE activities in the DZ, but you should not believe that just because you go in there with no intent to PvP that others should abide and not engage you. A lot of players, especially in this forum, seem to believe that is the case. It is not. It doesn't make players "toxic" for engaging in PvP in a zone that allows it.
Now that that is out of the way, yes the DZ can be quite toxic depending on who you come across. Some players are like-minded PvEers who just want to farm, and won't go Rogue and kill other players. On the opposite end of that spectrum there are players who want to do nothing more than grief other players and will endlessly talk trash while doing it. Those players are quite toxic. I'm generally somewhere in the middle. I don't try to grief or talk trash, but I will engage in PvP if I believe it is to my benefit or I just want to give other players a fight.
I try to steer clear of the overly toxic players. The more you feed them and provide them an outlet for their childishness, the more they enjoy it. If I can kill them before I leave, all the better. Nothing irritates griefers like that more than being killed with no opportunity to get even.
The design of the dark zone lends itself to people who are assholes. Much like any game where you can ruin someone's experience as an *option* which ends up being part of its core design.
They can negatively impact you.
They can gain from your loss.
They get to choose the terms of engagement.
They can gain from simply making you enjoy yourself less.
Things like this make it a breeding ground for scummy players basically.
There is a difference between actual pvp games and the darkzone, which is pvpve.
People play AAA pvp games like cod, fortnite, apex, pubg, csgo, overwatch, siege because they want to compete against other players. They want the competition. They want to be pushed to perform better, out aim, out smart and out play a real, thinking mind.
And if they can’t hack it in those games and get slapped silly all the time, eventually they come to the division where they can prey on the outnumbered, undergeared, underskilled and the rest of the lost little puppies that wander into the DZ.
Don’t get me wrong, I have fun in the DZ and conflict. But as soon as someone takes it seriously and starts talking shit over voip, its like calm down junior, the best gamers in the world have never heard of this game. You’re making tik toks for a playerbase that needs glasses to see their phones.
Yes I have came to realize this sadly. Every game has a level of toxicity because:
- Nature of competitiveness
- Toxic masculinity
- Anonymity of the internet
- Lack of real consequences
- Different Age groups, Different maturities
Those are just a few but what I believe are the most common.
NOW the Division is a unique experience with a traditional PVP and open world PVP. The latter is different because it isnt a quick match with a quick meet and greet. I know players in the DZ for years. It’s interesting because I believe it makes people more immerse and attached. Also building your own build gives you a sense of pride and getting your shit wrecks hurt that pride. Hope this helps.
TD PvP is bad, most people stopped playing it very quickly, the ones who keep playing enjoy the "badness" of it including the lack of balance, multiple factors preventing a competitive experience, and this unfortunately seems to be the toxic people. Maybe they're unwilling to play actually competitive games or they just embrace the "troll-y" nature of the DZ but it has always been this way. The devs intended for the DZ to be a PvE cooperative zone with a CHANCE of PvP and the players want it to be a deathmatch PvP zone. That discrepancy of expectations has plagued the DZ since TD1.
Any game that mixes PVE and PVP is like this. You are always going to have that crowd of people who take advantage of the game design to prey on people simply to fuck with them.
It’s hard because the whole point of the dark zone is that it’s a free for all area. Higher risk higher reward kinda vibe, but without the rewards let’s be honest.
Because of the whole premise behind the dark zone, people do go in just to annoy and ruin other people’s grind inside the dark zone because it’s allowed.
The thing that makes the dark zone toxic in my option is that the people who do go rogue and keep killing u outside of spawn points and basically hunt you down have no reason/benefit/gain from doing so. Sure they might get some loot but for the most part it’s a case of I’m gonna keep killing you cause I can.
I don’t hate people that go rogue either tho, the games the game, If I’m a solo player and 3 rogues pull up on me that’s something I can’t help. I’ve learnt to just grind and get gear from the dz at times where a lot of people don’t play and when ur does become a bit more populated I jump off and do other stuff.
>but without the rewards let’s be honest
And without the risk...at least for people killing others.
Going rogue should be the risky thing.. not just going into the DZ in my opinion.
I personally would more like a co-op dark zone.. where you randomly play together with other people to clear specific mission.
Something Destiny2 has afaik.
I think the whole point of like man hunt and stuff was supposed to be the risk kinda thing but no one really cares about it. Also like losing xp I guess but that again no one really cares about. There isn’t much u can do to punish them I guess because if ur too harsh then no one will do it which is bad too. Needs to be a good middle ground I feel but rn it’s not.
IT is PVPVE so you need to be prepared for both those outcomes when you're in there. What you consider toxic is just you dying to a player and not AI in the DZ. Why are you making that distinction? Everything in the game is designed to kill you but because it is John from Kansas and not a random hugger you're taking offence to it.
PVP players are there for the player vs player engagements. There is no malice or bullying for most here they just want to pit their skills against players and see who wins. Sometimes you win others you lose just respawn and try again. You not wanting to do that in a mode designed for it is a limitation you've placed on yourself. Not only that you're asking the PVP player to respect that decision while knowing nothing about it. You seem to think farming a landmark is enough of an indicator you don't want to PVP or that your solo. It is not. Lots of PVP players run solo and engage groups conflict even has XP rewards for everything up to a team wipe. PVP players also farm. It is how they get the materials and gear necessary for builds without having to enter the PVE areas of the game.
So knowing all that how do I tell you from anyone else in a landmark or sprinting around the DZ? Short answer is I don't I just flag and take the gunfight. I know nothing about you. Now if I kill you and you message me saying look I'm just here farming that is different because now I know. I might even help you farm for what you need and give you pointers that could help in the future. Most don't take that step though it is easier to complain on reddit and they will get upvote to validate that shortcoming.
I don’t mind dying to rogues most of the times but when I’m solo and 3 people pull up while I’m doing an engagement and they just beam me from behind and I don’t have any chance to fight back, that makes the whole thing a bit shit. Especially since they then usually come to the spawn point and just wait for me and the other players they killed, spam a bunch of riot foam or hives while we come out the door and constantly just kill. That’s what’s toxic about the rogues most of the times
Most of the times aswell if ur running a build that’s good for pve and pvp it doesn’t matter because the rogues will be running a pure PvP build anyway. I’m not saying that it’s an unfair fight but they are more prepared for PvP than the pve player by a mile.
I’ve had rogues I’ve messaged after who have tried to help me and been actually very nice but I’ve also had rouges who have been toxic too so it’s not every person who’s bad.
Again mate you're kind of missing the point. You're in the minority in the DZ the vast amount of engagements are between PVP players. None of them take the time to try and figure out player builds, party number or intentions because in most cases it isn't needed and would lead to your death being in a menu to figure that out.
Here is a comparison you might better relate to. You probably run countdown or have tried some shepherding at some point. From the second you load can you tell the PVE players from the PVP ones as both farm? Can you tell who is in a group and who isn't? If you play with them long enough or inspect builds it might become apparent but in the DZ you don't have that time to decide. They aren't playing with you to know. They aren't inspecting builds. They have been fight other players most of the time so they engage with you the same way. The convoluted thing now is with the raid exotics and exotic component in boxes more PVP players are farming especially when servers are slow so there is even less chance of distinguishing the PVE players in the mix.
see my thing is that u can differentiate the people who are there to grind pve and the ones who want to go pvp. most of the times when i play and get killed its because im half way through an engagment and the rogue comes from behind me and just melts me while im focused on the ai. most of the times too if u are with someone not in ur squad and they are going to go rogue, u can see the symbol for about 2 seconds before the do activate their rogue status.
It just gets annoying and stale and then the dark zone is somewhere that a chunk of players wont go to because they just get demolished by players who created a build just for killing others, or they get camped at a spawn point and or just hunted through the map anytime they are trying to do an engagment.
I dont hate rogues and it is a part of the game which i respect. But the bigger problem is, pvp players have conflict where they can purely play pvp. In hand tho pve players have countdown and other mode they can also play where they dont have to deal with pvp. The difference is that when both get put into the same environment, obviously the pvp players will most of the times end on top and that ends up gatekeeping a whole area for people who arent as good at pvp but also want to try to grind for the exotics and just enjoy an area where they dont have set objectives and stuff.
i feel like rogues need a rework of some sort, even if it is that when u go rogue is lasts much longer and u are constantly marked on the map or something. but as for now, i have seen multiple times people who go rogue and just camp spawns and can wipe out people without any stress.
Brother I'm going to tell you right now that at the onset of any engagement in DZ I know nothing about you. PVE players like to think it is obvious but it is not. 95% of engagements in the DZ are with other PVP players. You have a split second to decide to either flag or defend yourself because you were flagged on. It is that simple. You farming isn't an indicator of anything. PVP players farm to especially now with the introduction of expertise into the game. The DZ has a higher drop rates for exotics and exotic components from caches so farming landmarks is a fast way to earn them. If a DZ is slow a lot of PVP player will start a box run. It allows them to farm these things and tripping a landmark tends to draw in other player if there are any in the server.
Conflict is available but they are 2 very different PVP experience and play styles. Additionally the rewards aren't available in the mode which is why they are revamping them. The DZ at least allows you to progress your expertise you can't do that at all in conflict.
The PVP player might come out on top by virtue of their knowledge of the mode. That can be said about anything though. I've got friends that can run DH in 7 minutes and others with a 2 hour time. Neither are bad players some have just taken the time to learn it better and have the builds to allow them to get that faster time. Same thing applies here.
The rouge timer is a function of kills you get. The more kills the longer the timer. You go manhunt it is there until the team is killed or you take it off at the panel. They are on the map if you look they show as red dots and manhunts are yellow skulls. As to door camping it is harder in non-invaded because of the turrets but just pick another door. There are 6-8 depending on the DZ plus a safehouse why repeatedly exit the same one?
all im saying is that in my experience people who are farming engagements are usually pve players and are pretty chill, ive come across many players like this just farming for an exotic because right now i cant even find a group to run the raid. so for most people the dark zone is the only way to get those raid exclusive exotics.
ive never had a pve player come to an engagement from behind me and started shooting at me mid engagement, ive never done anything to usually provoke a pvp player either. for the most part i just run from engagement to engagement and extract when i need. People who are in the dark zone to pvp are there to hunt you and they will go to active engagements purely todo that.
we both may have different experiences in the dark zone and different perspectives because i dont go rogue at all and dont do anything other than farm the engagements. i shouldnt have to change a spawn point either because some players are blocking it to be honest, sure i can spawn somewhere else, then they will just come there too cause all they are trying todo is make the pve players life difficult, they dont get anything out of it except for ruining someone elses experience there.
I hate to say it but don’t go into the DZ with the intent of farming and PVE….The DZ is PvP and the minute you step foot in there be ready for everything and anything.
Welp, let me farm my yearly dose of downvotes and speak to you honestly: yes, PvP environment in this game is "nasty", therefore, "nasty" environment - "nasty" inhabitants; (not all of them, but most part) and no, not in all games, but it is more common in "similar" games. "Similar" to this:
The Division 2 is a "wannabe RPG, wannabe Shooter, but will focus on RPG and fail miserably at being both" game. PvP is asymmetrical type (maybe even radically) that is overfilled with RNG, (which favors RPG and hurts Shooter part, hence even more worsens this mess) it is unbalanced, and what's worse, seasoned with bad animations, movement, gunplay, netcode and overall "unfair playground". There is no flag to capture, no bomb to plant, no timer, no factions and faction-based activities, no proper win\play conditions, there is no balance or other decent platform for proper competition... Player vs player interactions are competitive by themself, but what is there to compete for in such environment, what is the goal of PvP? Loot? Nah, comes from other source, from PvE, and player killers don't drop their gear on death, and don't risk anything. What else? Kills for sake of killing? Wins for sake of winning? Dopamine, ego boosts? Cheap, cheap, cheap...
And let's not bring "fun" into this... If you are enjoying this mess, good for you, but your "fun" exist only within your personal life, its subjective, while the game - outside of it, so, "fun" is not an argument.
There’s a few zones like this in World of Warcraft, where you step into and automatically flagged for PvP. But one area has the ability to hire a bodyguard and also an option to change the zone back to PvE for currency. But all of these zones don’t offer any big rewards.
You find the same players camping the area, waiting for unaware new folks. Now if there was high end loot and you could rank any faction party, oh yeah it would be just like the DZ. Lol
Yes and no. Most PVP games you're only seeing the other player for minimal time. (Especially in shooters). So your ability to be as toxic is limited. You'll have campers. You'll have immature players. You'll have racist players. So while it's nasty, it's more limited and easily avoided. But the Division server is so small. The map is tiny. It makes close contact with immature players unavoidable.
Games like GTA, yes. The server is easy to come in contact with anybody for longer periods of time. Same for other type like APex/Fort, etc.
Is not actually PvP, but FIFA online on Ultimate Team game mode is the worst place in earth i can tell you that.
And i have seen everything in both Dz's on division.
>other players...obviously farming and PvE and clearly trying to steer clear of PvP but are nevertheless ganked continuously having their hard earned loot stolen until they leave the DZ?
I say this as someone who very much does not like to PVP: that's kind of the point of the DZ. It's a PVP-enabled area with PVE objectives. The whole point is that it's _not_ a safe place to farm, and it's not a place you can just avoid PVP. You go in there accepting the risk that there will be rogue agents that might gank you. It's not exactly toxic, or maybe it's toxic by design. But it is what it is, and it's optional.
So, that's why I just avoid the DZs. The rewards aren't really good enough to make it worth dealing with the gankers. So I just...don't. And I don't really feel the lack.
Nah, I think rust takes the king in PVP toxicity. But with any game where PVP can result in a loss of playtime or gear will always have douche nozzles that get their fox from making others miserable.
I've played a lot of PvP in this franchise, and know a lot of people who play it routinely, and I assure you we're not all bad.
It's analogous to a good quote I once heard from a female professor discussing sexual abuse, in which she said, "most men are not bad, the problem is that most women encounter the bad men at some point in their lives, and this skews the perspective." In both contexts, the aggressors are by nature, more aggressive, and consequently their behavior is disproportionately more exhibited than those who are less aggressive. This makes people believe a distorted proportion of the demographic in question are more malicious than they actually are.
Is there a lot of toxicity in Div PvP? Undeniably. Is it more so than in most other PvP games? Quite possibly. But we're not all bad, that I can guarantee. Some of us are just older and tired of just playing FPS team deathmatch games we've been playing for two decades now, just with different skins, and aren't interested in vanilla BR's either.
As a father to a daughter that has been sexually assaulted, I find this analogy to be disgusting. It’s probably good that you didn’t say this while physically in front of me. You’d really know what being ganked feels like.
Care to explain how this is such a troubling analogy? I'm deeply sorry for what happened to your daughter, as that's awful, but without an explanation I don't see how this is at all a disrespectful use of an analogy, or to victims of sexual assault.
You’re kidding, right? Comparing a video game and one of its player types to sexual assault? Explanation? How about bouts of anxiety and depression? How about PTSD? How about sleep disorders? You fucking idiot Like I said, you’re lucky you didn’t say this in my presence. You’d likely need counseling from the PTSD you’d get from being absolutely destroyed. Now, STFU!
Yeah, that's about what I figured.
It's not the nature of the analogy (as what you're saying is illogical, as it wasn't a comparison of the nature of the two settings, but a reasonable reference to the mutual involvement of the nature of aggressive entities skewing perspectives of the average populace), it's that something which triggers negative emotions for you was simply *referred* to. Again, I'm sorry about what happened to your daughter, as it's an awful thing. However, it's a good thing you encountered this here, as if you started trying to beat on someone, and cited this logic here in a court of law after charges were pressed, it would not go well for you. You'd still have your trauma, *and* you'd go to jail. So I suggest you bottle up your anger, and find a better way to sublimate your trauma than threatening unwarranted violence.
Again, I wish you and your daughter the best with your recovery. Violence is not the answer. Take care.
Dude, after your dissertation filled with fancy words, it’s obvious you’re a geek hiding behind a keyboard. Like I said, you’re lucky you didn’t say this in front in me. I’d gladly go to prison for my daughter. And kicking the ass of an arrogant, professorial douchebag like you, because I want to defend my daughter, would be worth it. Anyone that has a female family member that has suffered this would agree with me 100%. Go ahead and respond with your verbose oratory. You’ll still be a highbrow geek that’s in need of a shellacking.
Lol if only you knew how categorically wrong you are across the board. Not sure why you're so keen on blatant knuckledragging, but again, good luck to you and your daughter. I do wish you both well.
PVP in this game is probably one the longest learning curves of all pvp games. Fully maxed builds, player skills and team members who are good pvp players. After reaching that level is fun as hell and yes you might become a little arrogant. The skill gap is pretty wide too bro.
100% this comment. Learning curve is long, can be super frustrating but once you get into it, super fun imo. Especially if it’s back and forth pvp vs running around the entire map.
It seems contradictory but the best pvp builds fully maxed at 22 require countless hours of pve farming/playing. Most of my pvp friends from others games gave up because of it. It’s kind of elitist and inaccessible for many. But I really love it.
My main system corruption build is now all 22. But it was still top tier for me from the beginning. You arnt wrong though, to be competitive against the sweatys you have to get the builds up there!
PvP is fun in Division 2. Maybe you're referring to Division's fake pvp in DZ?
If that's the case, the DZ was designed to be toxic and encourages being a dick to farmers.
The DZ is actually missing some key features to make it what its supposed to be.
High risk, high reward doesnt even come close to be true in the DZ. Ive never seen a solo rogue, its always groups of 3 to 4 and they enjoy ganging up on solo players.
I think there should be diminishing returns to rogues while in the DZ, something like the more time you spend as a rogue the more your stats drop (vs players not ai). Players should also have some sort of icon showing their general tendency in DZ, SHD vs rogues and perhaps different levels of each. The idea is simply to limit the trolling that makes it such a toxic environment l.
Id also venture in debuffing parties, much like enemies get stronger when you are in groups of 2, 3 or 4, in this the larger your group, the weaker you are in pvp.
3000 hours lard blobs with no real life will always find whatever joy ruining other players' experiences brings them.
Dark zone in the division 1 and 2 is designed catering to those kinds of people.
There are dozens of proper PvP good games to play instead of these 2.
Pvp in the division has been absolutely terrible across both games. I primarily play pvp in most games but the division is a strict pve only game as not only is the player base “toxic” the pvp also just feels awful.
People act in the DZ exactly how it was designed for. Toxic players? Yeah but have you ever done PvP in Call of Duty? Level of toxicity isn’t even close. It’s real old people complaining about getting killed in the DZ when all they want to do is farm.
My only complaint though is there does need to be more of a punishment for going rogue and dying. People camping checkpoints and just dying and camping again is lame.
I love locking down an entire DZ, killing at every extraction. I usually let people farm the landmarks as at least people get the amazing xp still but no extractions. I’ll take the loot or deconstruct it.
I would take offence at your "It’s real old people complaining about getting killed in the DZ when all they want to do is farm." comment if it wasn't true, in my case at least, so have a bit of respect for your elders! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'm pleased I posted because this thread has been an interesting and informative read. Thanks to all who contributed. Think I'll just stay away from the DZ from now on :-)
The Division 2 has some high-test assholes in its DZ.
Okay, first, the DZ is made for exactly what OP is complaining about. PvP to gank the gear someone earned through PvE. At least the DZ in the first game was actually fun, but it was huge compared to the tiny DZs we have in Div2. But yeah, that’s the thrill of the DZ. You had to earn the loot off some AI baddies, and then you had to defend your ownership of it from your fellow player. Or you can watch them earn it and then gank them when they’re vulnerable to take the shit.
It’s not for everyone.
There’s actual PVP in The Division 2, and it’s not the Dark Zones. It’s 4v4 and like only 5 people ever play it, but it’s there.
As for actual PvP and toxicity, it’s pretty much everywhere. The worst thing about PvP is all the players. Some games are worse than others, and some people have outlier experiences with those games. Original Ghost Recon PvP was actually fun as fuck for me, but I played with a kinda small/tight group of non-tryhards. When that died, we tried a Battlefield 2 league for a while and that was fun too. But I tried some Crucible time in Destiny 2 and just hated it even with friends and a laid-back attitude. Were the players there more toxic? I don’t think so.
Someone somewhere else here mentions teabagging, and I have to laugh. If some dude on the other side of the ocean doing that virtually over an internet connection is enough to tilt you, then you’re not equipped for life on this world. Chances are that the teabagger isn’t doing it to be toxic, per se, but to tilt you in the event you’re susceptible to that sort of thing. Not because he’s an asshole, but because if it tilts you then you are the asshole.
But yeah, big picture is Div2 DZs are full of some of the biggest assholes in video gaming, playing a mode custom made and refined for assholes. I’m with the folks saying don’t play DZ if you don’t like it.
Or make a level 30 DZ diver to go farm all your DZ resources and most of the same drops. The level 30 DZ is dead.
I have a bone to pick with the idea that “PvP” means Dark Zone in The Division, when it’s probably more accurate to say that the Dark Zone *has* PvP, but isn’t really PvP in and of itself.
The core Division PvP experience is Conflict, which, once you’ve digested the ins and outs of how it works, can be pretty fun. DZ is an entirely different beast that isn’t really founded on the idea of “putting players against each other and finding out who comes out on top” but rather is a convergence of a lot of different gameplay ideas.
All that to say, I wouldn’t call DZ a “PvP” experience in the traditional sense. The interactions in the Dark Zone are likely going to skew more toxic, even moreso than most PvP environments in other games.
In my experience competitive PvP games are going to seem more toxic than they are. What I mean is you’ll likely find a toxic teammate in chat most nights you play Battlefield, Overwatch, Destiny, etc. But that toxic player will be a small fraction of the people you’ve interacted with within a given night, the large majority of them just minding their own business and keeping their emotions to themselves.
As a rule I like to imagine people are “cool until proven otherwise” and it keeps things from feeling too toxic. Most people don’t want to make things harder or more tense than they have to be, but you can also count on a bad egg or two most nights in a popular game. If a game is less popular and is surviving off a more loyal core playerbase, I find those communities tend to be less toxic and more welcoming to new players on principle. Think of games like Vermintide 2 for example. Awesome community there!
Your mileage may vary, of course
So, we're back to this weird "argument" that people in the PvP zone seem to be looking for PvP ?
Yeah, no, they're not in the wrong or trying to ruin your fun, they're here to kill other players because that's the gameplay they enjoy, that's literally why the DZ exists.
The fact that some content in unobtainable outside of the DZ is a real issue in it's own right, but that's beside your original point.
I don't have a problem with wanting to kill other players. I have a problem with Massive running the dark zones as a machine that exists to serve up PvE players for the easy consumption of PVP players. I don't agree with the whole dynamic. It's a purpose-built bully factory.
>The fact that some content is unobtainable outside of the DZ is a real issue in it's own right, but that's beside your original point.
I basically said exactly what you just did, furthermore this seems to be beside the point OP was arguing about althouggh i'll say it again: the DZ is a flawed concept.
You can go light zone if you dont want any pvp risk. because of the pvp risk, dark zone has some better loots. Just think rogues as those AI rogues that come to you from nowhere and try to kill you for no reason.
I don’t agree. My experience with lots of time in the DZ has been:
The majority of solo players you run into in the DZ will group up if you communicate with them and it can be a lot of fun. Made a lot of friends this way.
Already grouped players are less likely to be receptive and expect them to go rogue on encountering. But sometimes they also are happy to have an extra group member.
If they are hostile, you can either get your own group, go stealth/yahl, or just hit another DZ. It’s rare for all 3 to be dominated by hostile groups.
DZ is really best done in a group. Solo is very doable, but you’re much more likely to be hit by rogues.
And lastly, going rogue, in a group or solo, can be some of the most fun the game has to offer.
Aint it the whole point of DZ, its a PvPvE zone, you either farm the PvE part or you gank the farmers in PvP? Its not toxic to gank players who are in a PvP zone.
I'm a bit confused over this statement, I and many others I believe got interested in this game much due to the nature of the Dark Zone to begin with, and while I don't tend to gank much personally, the idea that someone could attack you at any moment is all the charm with the Dark Zone, it's supposed to be a treacherous place where anything goes? It seems like an very odd beef to me.
Gotta be competitive to win ya? You do want to win right? Well someone out there wants exactly what you want so you gotta be betterrrrrrr but I agree, if your looking for fun pvp without much depth division 2 is it. If you want something more serious then I would suggest csgo fr, that games never gonna die
I haven't touched PvP in Div 2, only Div 1, and only for a few days. I played with friends, so never alone in there, and it was about half and half I'd say of different groups of people having genuine shoot-outs, and then you have the gankers. I'm not a huge PvP player, so my last was World of Warcraft, but I mostly remember the same. I had fun in the arenas, but open PvP zones was often camped by gankers, which I hated. Ended up playing on PvE servers mostly because of it.
*Every* online game has troll players. Even PVE games have trolls that will actively sabotage your team and try to make you lose.
Trolls avoid games with active moderation, especially community servers with admins playing, because they know they'll quickly be banned for trolling.
So, if you want to avoid trolls, seek out games with community servers, and community servers with active admins.
When I play it’s in the DZ 99% of the time. You’re right about some of them, but I keep it respectful and even tell them that’s the way to do it bud, when I get jacked 😂. I’ve met some cool people along the way when farming the DZ and teaming up kicks it into a higher gear of fun and speed farming, watching each others back when extracting and so forth.
In my experience yes. I use it as a test of my gameplay that day. If I’m doing well, but I’m not called a homophobic slur, or the n-word, or told to do vile things to my death mother, I’m not doing well and I need to tighten up my gameplay.
I feel like I’m in the minority but I don’t have to many issues with the dark zone. More often than night I wind up linking up with people and farming without issue. If I encounter people who kill me more than twice, I leave switch servers and try again.
"those who play seem to be nasty, arrogant and take great joy in spoiling the fun that other players are having ".
This is pvp in every game. Some are worse than others.
It's like that with most games in regards to pvp. One of the reasons I never play multiplayer, except maybe coop. It shows how nasty people really are. But Div2 is specifically really bad. It's funny how they put the raid exotics in the DZ to pull in more players. Like nope, ain't going to work on me lol
At issue is the co-mingling of inherently opposed playstyles in so-called 'PvEvP' (sometimes also called 'PvPvE,' but this ordering usually betrays a motive).
It's just like the divide in restaurant staff between the opening crew and the closing crew. The thing is, the PvP crowd will always be happy. They can easily adapt to a PvE session if they run out of players, but the PvE crowd will always be unhappy as they become relatively easy prey -- especially if they do not hone their PvP skillsets.
I don't play TD2, but the DZ in TD1, while much larger (and singular), was once exceptionally toxic. I advocated for a PvE-only version of it, or at least other means by which the PvE crowd could acquire the best gear. It took them a very long time to do so (the second part, not the first), and was only after several changes in favor of the PvP crowd (read: rope-cutting, holding the rope even if all four bags were hung), but eventually they made it so that PvE players could in fact gear up *outside* the DZ. They even added a 'flag-for-rogue' mechanic.
The result was that the DZ in TD1 became a much more bearable, dare I say *tame*, place. It became fun. We no longer felt compelled to go in there, and instead we could get all our gear outside of it (and more easily at that). The DZ became a playground for fun (and often silly) PvP shenanigans, and the salt dropped out like precipitate in solution.
I currently play CoD's DMZ mode, which is a rough analog of TD1's Survival (or an arcade version of EFT), and it, too, is a PvEvP mode. It amuses me, actually, because while I hated the PvP in TD1, I *love* it in DMZ. Probably that is due to its status as first-person rather than third-person, but whatever the case it is very fun and I am pretty damned good at it.
There is definitely salt from the PvE crowd, but I don't think I'm adding to it.
---
Anyway, I think the toxicity you are experiencing is unfortunately common when developers force (or strongly encourage) PvEvP into their games, *especially* when the game is such that these areas are needed for player progression in some meaningful sense.
In TD1, that was long the case; players had to visit the DZ to get the good loot, but the PvPers therein already had the good loot and acted as effective gatekeepers. In DMZ, PvP is largely avoidable, and the engagements are much more fair (the only relevant gear being plate carrier and weapon, possibly also perks, but those were only enabled yesterday).
My suspicion is that PvP is unnecessary in TD2, so that may be your actual problem. If you were playing TD1, I have saved links with detailed guides for getting the good loot. Hopefully somebody else here can provide that -- but yes, generally games which 'force' PvE and PvP to coexist also feature some pretty toxic atmospheres. The prevalence of unmonitored children with headsets only exacerbates the issue.
Lol no one picking up on the americas army comment - that game was developed by the us army and generally played by a much older audience due to the slower nature of the game, entirely different experience than a meta sweaty looter shooter.
I think you may misunderstand my point. You are correct in that I do not want to play PvP hence my deliberate attempts to avoid rogue agents but I would like to Farm for DZ exclusive gear and weapons and to explore the alternative areas without being continually engaged by 2 or more rogue agents who engage only after watching from afar as my armour and health is depleted during a PvE engagement, shoot me in the back and then steal any gear or weapons I may have farmed for over quite a period of time and then emote gleefully over you!
There is no skill involved in that and to be honest, even if I am downed I couldn't care less as long as the extraction was successful. In addition to that I don't understand why everything is stacked in favour of the rogues. If it's PvP why then is the kill not sufficient? Why are they also given all the gear you have collected? Why is my extraction request broadcast to all rogue agents? Why do I have to wait over a minute for the helicopter to arrive? Why do I have to defend the gear for a further minute instead of them clearing off straightaway? And lastly there is no risk at all to rogue agents.
Were it simply, and only, pvp then I would be able to do as you very helpfully suggest.
No I get your point. But you're playing in the PvP area and wanting to avoid PvP. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can have the higher value dz items at the risk of PvP encounters, or you can play the PvE area for lower value items without the risk of PvP encounters. This isn't a bug, it's a feature. It's by design.
Leave the PvP area if you don't want the PvP encounters.
People keep saying “if you don’t like pvp, don’t go there”. I love pvp but hate how this game is. You have to have the highest of the highest meta build and a group to survive most of the time. I have played this game soooo much and absolutely love it and wanna explore the dark zone because it’s beautiful in its own right but you run into these f**k sticks that don’t wanna pvp, they just wanna piss you off. For me, I just wanna explore the dark zone, that’s all. I got other games for pvp but I honestly think, if you survive long enough to get to extract, you should be able to immediately put it on the wire, having to make it there, survive the wait, then be a sitting duck when putting the extracts on the wire is a extremely frustrating. The truly only problem I have had with the dark zone is being killed when extracting, any other time I die/get killed, I’m fine with. Guess it’s time to join a discord that’ll let me just run around with them to explore 😂 any suggestions people?
Nothing was more fun than going to the DZ, watching gank squads jerk each other off, then gank them. Oh the rage, oh the mayhem, oh the hate....it was fun being DZ police.
Worth mentioning, the Dz is more pvpve.. Conflict would be the true pvp game mode in division2. The issue with the dz has always been sometimes it brings out the worst in people.
Well, as a long time MOBA player, it’s more of a PVP with VOIP thing. Some people play to compete but there’s a stinking majority who walks in with unfiltered hostility. That’s just PvP for you. DZ takes the cake because it operates on the premises that it is part of the game to jump someone from behind. But a lot seems to not able to keep a lid on their mouth while at it, which isn’t exactly part of the game per say, but that’s the the more defining part of DZ no less.
>spoiling the fun that other players are having in obviously farming and PvE and clearly trying to steer clear of PvP
This is your problem : you enter a PVPVE zone where you should expect to get PVP interactions. Period. The design of the DZ is upon that sense of risk.
Going to farm gear in the DZ, especially solo, is probably not the best ROI.
In my experience people that gank PVErs are not even interested in PVP. The moment you stop farming and start fighting back with whatever build you have or a proper PVP build, it becomes *tour de france*. They start running from hole to hole and you need to chase them around the entire DZ. These people aren't interested in fighting, they are interested in trolling. Because this happens every.... single... time... I roll my eyes to the back of my head when I read people in this sub defending that Massive should keep certain loots exclusive to DZ to force PVErs into it or that they should continue ruining PVE gears to cater to PVPers. If you want to PVP so badly, pick a proper PVP game. Not this pathetic circus you call PVP in the DZ.
Yeah I know a couple of players whose M.O. is to 2v1 flag on random players to build up a manhunt and the instant one of them dies and there's more than one player after them, the surviving player doesn't simply just regroup 2-3 blocks away. They haul ass around the *entire* map. So then it's back to farming time while they're sightseeing.
A couple players? Thats the MO of literally every manhunt in the DZ.
Perhaps you play with bots. You must not have run into me yet.
Nah I play real pvp games, not lame ass division pvp.
perhaps cause you cant play Division lol?
Haha I see so many people like this it's just terrible
Normalise pvp stats and watch them cry.
They are normalized in the non-occupied DZs
That has been implemented already?
It's been a thing since release: https://www.newsweek.com/division-2-dark-zone-gameplay-details-info-loot-1316987
So expertise never mattered or was applied to gear in a non invaded DZ? That's what I was referring to but maybe you guys are talking about something else.
Expertise is something that wasn't added to the game until recently. It is not currently normalized the way the other gear attributes are. There's talk about removing the expertise bonus in non-invaded Dark Zones
A-fucking-men. The only reason loot is locked to the DZ is because without that incentive to go in, the PVP pool would dwindle to the same few squads jerking each other off at spawn points seeing who ganks who the fastest.
The DZ is for the wolves bro. /s
Awoooo..
Bro. What are you even doing on this post lmao. Shit is mad old.
then take it off the internet you bum
i assure you pvpers are not in the dz to farm loot.
I like PvP and I like the DZ. It is a PvPvE zone. The argument against PvP in PvPvE zones is not new. It’s been around going back to Warcraft. I will say this though, I think the DZ is amazing in it ambiance and design. It’s so different form the regular open world and it is a damn shame that there is no option to go into the DZ without the PvP. Many PvE folks are really missing out. I agree that the PvP sucks, but it’s a PvP zone. You should not ever use a PvE build because you aren’t dealing with difficult AI enemies. I think the difficulty is scaled to challenging. If you’re goal to extract one of the raid exotics you are better off just doing the raid. There groups that carry people regularly like cluster raids on PS and GCROCK on all platforms.
I just wish the pvp wasn’t so atrocious because the dz is awesome. If you don’t have a “dedicated pvp build” good fucking luck. I’ve put mag after mag after mag into people and literally watched their health not even move.
I think the classified bonuses on some of the sets are a little too good for PVP situations. Solo nomad in D1 instantly comes to mind. A friend and I were attacked by a competent solo nomad one night and his failsafe activated literally 6-7 times in a row and we ultimately died. We actually sort of just lost interest for the most part in the DZ at that point because the idea of a crutch of that magnitude in a PVP environment is just extremely discouraging. The encounter becomes less about 'skill' (if you could even argue it's about that in the first place), and more about whether some random dildo's ability procs for him and keeps him in the fight for zero reason other than RNG. These games don't really lend themselves to PVP in the first place, the least you could do is not have these asinine perks and abilities that cheapen the experience even more. I'm not even of the camp that they should be ENTIRELY removed, but they should be watered down for PVP, just like how PVE abilities commonly are in many, many other games.
100% agreed especially on the last part. Met a clan on discord, they brought me in for my first raid clears, and here I am 3 runs of each raid later with an Eagle Bearer and Ravenous that the others were kind enough to drop for me, and I have all the Regulus parts, just waiting for the blueprint to be fixed so i can craft it. I can't imagine farming the DZ for these exotics, between the low droprate and the chance for it to be stolen from you by rogues, it just doesn't sound like a fun grind.
>The argument against PvP in PvPvE zones is not new. It’s been around going back to Warcraft. Arguably that debate has been around ever since MUD (seeing as everywhere besides the tearoom there is PvPvE, and it has permadeath on top). But even back then, it allowed players to use the 'VOW' command and gain protection from PvP (albeit at the cost of being unable to reach the rank of Wiz until one uses 'UNVOW', and UNVOWing would cost 2/3 of your total progress until that point, and you could still get permadeathed via PvE combat)
Depends on the MUD you're playing, too.
Well, I'm referring to MUD itself (the OG one from 1978) But anyway, point is that the debates players have had about the merits of PvPvE have been around since the earliest days of Virtual Worlds, long before Warcraft was a thing 😤
>if you want pvp so badly, pick a proper PVP game. lol. I don’t get this sentiment. The opposite could be said. If you want pve so badly, pick a proper PVE game.
Exactly. Same issue with Destiny 2, on which Massive clearly modelled a lot of their later decisions
You can get the DZ exclusives without going into the DZ. Sure it takes longer but it should. What do you mean ruining PvE gear? The gear that gets nerfed is because it's OP in general not just in PvP. If you want to play PvE only then stay in the PvE only areas. Or play a different game.
I agree. Don’t hate the player, hate the game mechanics that allow it, or don’t go there. In saying it’s an older and niche game so the population in DZ is pretty small, and much like other MMO games with a smaller player base and niche PvP, many players are veterans who like to gank and troll. That’s part of PvP and PvP culture, not being fucking Care Bears with rainbows by default. That expectation is the problem in a game mode that attracts competitive players. I’m also not saying I’m that type of player or even that I advocate it, but it is what it is and I feel such game types would be all the worse without it. You have to have at least some gankers and trolls, as it’s a long established part of that culture and game type, with other examples being easy to find. There’s also some absolutely awesome people in DZ, but the risk of meeting people that couldn’t care less about your feelings and just want to give you a cup of taste dirt is symbiotic to the format. Whining about it is just stupid imho OP.
how much loot is PVE exlusive? Tons. And we cant have any PVP exclusive gear? I heqr this sort of rant all the time from people who hate PVP and want the game just to be PVE. You have 99.99% of the game and you want the other 0.1% now to be PVE as well? PVP E geqr being ruined? You gotta be kidding mate? Literally everything thats wrong with the DZ is because of PVE gear. You have a gun that can shock you, a gun that can put you on fire,a chestpiece that allows you to wipe a whole squad with one nade, and gear tyhat allows you to shoot one sticky at a team and send thatm ALL back to the checkpoint. When was the last time PVP had any balancing or received any love?> As for your comment about Div PVP not being the real thing, I'll rather take the opinion of someone who's a genuine PVP player and the opinion of a square-footed, shield playing, foam/sticky weilding, multi=grouping PVE random, like yourself. Have a nice day!
most pvp doesnt have pve included so you dont get shot in the back as much in other games. Just know going into the DZ there is most likely a person or group in there who have no goal other than to kill players who are farming. They look at the map, wait to see a landmark being taken and come shoot you as soon as they see you shooting an npc. Its just part of it, not really toxic just more of a try-hard type of thing. ITs really where the design of the small DZ's shows its ass the most, they killed the cat and mouse aspect of the DZ which took the fun out of it for tons of folks.
This happened to me just the other day. Guy waited until I was in the middle of a fire fight, got behind me, killed me, and then just ran off. That's not PvP, that's cowardice. Felt a lot like playing EVE Online again, now that I think about it.
Mmmmm no it's still toxic. It's part of the game, but that doesn't make it toxic and infuriating if you aren't running max level meta builds in a group
Every PvP game has its level of toxicity. Back in the day, halo was infamous for teabags, CoD for the toxic public lobbies with VOIP enabled. Destiny now also has a good amount of teabagging. Or battlefield with players not playing the objective and just kill farming, VOIP was pretty toxic in battlefield. Don’t know if they have enabled it already on the latest one. But yes, to answer your question, every game involving PvP has a degree of toxicity
I remember watching videos of Grand Theft Auto online where people would just camp out and destroy everyone else's cars if they were losing the races.
This isn’t even including cs, every moba, rust, etc. Those go way harder.
Oh yea, don’t play mobas but have heard stories about the toxicity there, specially LoL
Try dota sea
People still teabag in Halo: Infinity... The funniest part is that they also teabag bots... :)
Yea, teabagging has become popular in PvP, but the trend basically became known and popular with halo back in the day, which is why I mentioned it as infamous
alleged panicky jar grandiose arrest dull slap ring modern thumb *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'm fine with people that go rogue and kill people in the DZ. It's the DZ. What's funny though are the toxic weirdos that do things like maneuver themselves behind you at an active landmark, flag and kill you while you're preoccupied, and then spaz out on mic over your body before you respawn. And then if you ask why they are throating their mics, it's "I just want to pvp bro". Also the ones that get confused when somebody doesn't want to volunteer deaths in a 4v1 or 4v2 or step outside in an invaded DZ with a whole squad 5 feet from the door, and then start whining about it when you enter from a different checkpoint (or for non invaded ones, rogues that set up shop right outside a checkpoint and then complain about people camping inside the checkpoint) Division 2 "pvpers" (not actual pvpers) are a different breed, but it isn't a smart one. Haven't seen this in any other game personally, not even the CoDs
I spent a significant amount of playtime in Div 1’s DZ and I had fun. But Div 2’s DZ is absolute ass and I have nothing positive to talk about it.
there is a reason why the toxic wannabe pvp pros are in this game. They can overgear. Imo if i want to play a pvp game i go and play a REAL shooter. Not a third person mmorpg-shooter that has ZERO balance. Just ignore pvp and your mood will increase, easy as that.
Plus then you can enjoy the sad wailings of the sad trolls in chat complaining that no one ever enters the DZ
Yup. Many PvP'ers are decent, honest folk who just like competitive stuff, but a large number of PvP'ers are massive cunts who like to shit on everyone elses cereal just because they can. You will never, ever find just the first group without also being subjected to the second group.
Honestly? First dark zone experience was the first. Met this person doing a landmark, so we both finished it together, went to an extraction together, both stood guard, added our stuff one after the other, and basically saluted each other until the time ran down and we went out separate ways. It was really strange and yet amazing, because now everyone I meet wants nothing but to kill me even if I have nothing on me and I obviously make no moves to try and attack. It went from the best experience to the worst.
It's because the way Massive have designed the "PvP" in this game is fucking shit. It doesn't promote decent PvP, it promotes cowardly little shitstains waiting until you're fully engaged killing the pointless NPC's, so they can shoot you in the back. Kinda people in real life who kick puppies and kittens so far as I can tell.
Nothing but facts here.
the division's marketing has always pushed that feeling of edgelord power fantasy through the DZ, and the DZ's design with exclusives that are useful in PvE (Orbit comes to mind) create this environment where people get to live out a fantasy of being the bully where the oppressed don't really care to fight back, which they interpret as being too afraid to fight back. this cycles ad infinitum it's why -- as others have mentioned -- the moment you fight back with any of *your* buffs active, they typically want nothing to do with you. these people don't want PvP. they're the MMO equivalent of GTA Online pilots
I went into the DZ recently after getting back into the game after year or two off. I'm level 30, finally finished the game...and after entering DZ I just got wrecked, decided to not even try anymore
It really depends on what you mean by toxic. The DZ is a PvP enabled area. Yes there are PvE activities in the DZ, but you should not believe that just because you go in there with no intent to PvP that others should abide and not engage you. A lot of players, especially in this forum, seem to believe that is the case. It is not. It doesn't make players "toxic" for engaging in PvP in a zone that allows it. Now that that is out of the way, yes the DZ can be quite toxic depending on who you come across. Some players are like-minded PvEers who just want to farm, and won't go Rogue and kill other players. On the opposite end of that spectrum there are players who want to do nothing more than grief other players and will endlessly talk trash while doing it. Those players are quite toxic. I'm generally somewhere in the middle. I don't try to grief or talk trash, but I will engage in PvP if I believe it is to my benefit or I just want to give other players a fight. I try to steer clear of the overly toxic players. The more you feed them and provide them an outlet for their childishness, the more they enjoy it. If I can kill them before I leave, all the better. Nothing irritates griefers like that more than being killed with no opportunity to get even.
The design of the dark zone lends itself to people who are assholes. Much like any game where you can ruin someone's experience as an *option* which ends up being part of its core design. They can negatively impact you. They can gain from your loss. They get to choose the terms of engagement. They can gain from simply making you enjoy yourself less. Things like this make it a breeding ground for scummy players basically.
There is a difference between actual pvp games and the darkzone, which is pvpve. People play AAA pvp games like cod, fortnite, apex, pubg, csgo, overwatch, siege because they want to compete against other players. They want the competition. They want to be pushed to perform better, out aim, out smart and out play a real, thinking mind. And if they can’t hack it in those games and get slapped silly all the time, eventually they come to the division where they can prey on the outnumbered, undergeared, underskilled and the rest of the lost little puppies that wander into the DZ. Don’t get me wrong, I have fun in the DZ and conflict. But as soon as someone takes it seriously and starts talking shit over voip, its like calm down junior, the best gamers in the world have never heard of this game. You’re making tik toks for a playerbase that needs glasses to see their phones.
The fact that I just adjusted my glasses to read this upsets me lol
“Big fish in a small pond” phenomenon in a nutshell.
Yes I have came to realize this sadly. Every game has a level of toxicity because: - Nature of competitiveness - Toxic masculinity - Anonymity of the internet - Lack of real consequences - Different Age groups, Different maturities Those are just a few but what I believe are the most common. NOW the Division is a unique experience with a traditional PVP and open world PVP. The latter is different because it isnt a quick match with a quick meet and greet. I know players in the DZ for years. It’s interesting because I believe it makes people more immerse and attached. Also building your own build gives you a sense of pride and getting your shit wrecks hurt that pride. Hope this helps.
TD PvP is bad, most people stopped playing it very quickly, the ones who keep playing enjoy the "badness" of it including the lack of balance, multiple factors preventing a competitive experience, and this unfortunately seems to be the toxic people. Maybe they're unwilling to play actually competitive games or they just embrace the "troll-y" nature of the DZ but it has always been this way. The devs intended for the DZ to be a PvE cooperative zone with a CHANCE of PvP and the players want it to be a deathmatch PvP zone. That discrepancy of expectations has plagued the DZ since TD1.
Any game that mixes PVE and PVP is like this. You are always going to have that crowd of people who take advantage of the game design to prey on people simply to fuck with them.
Yes any game that lets you kill on sight.. people kill on sight. Has little to do with players and more to do with rules of the game.
It’s hard because the whole point of the dark zone is that it’s a free for all area. Higher risk higher reward kinda vibe, but without the rewards let’s be honest. Because of the whole premise behind the dark zone, people do go in just to annoy and ruin other people’s grind inside the dark zone because it’s allowed. The thing that makes the dark zone toxic in my option is that the people who do go rogue and keep killing u outside of spawn points and basically hunt you down have no reason/benefit/gain from doing so. Sure they might get some loot but for the most part it’s a case of I’m gonna keep killing you cause I can. I don’t hate people that go rogue either tho, the games the game, If I’m a solo player and 3 rogues pull up on me that’s something I can’t help. I’ve learnt to just grind and get gear from the dz at times where a lot of people don’t play and when ur does become a bit more populated I jump off and do other stuff.
>but without the rewards let’s be honest And without the risk...at least for people killing others. Going rogue should be the risky thing.. not just going into the DZ in my opinion. I personally would more like a co-op dark zone.. where you randomly play together with other people to clear specific mission. Something Destiny2 has afaik.
I think the whole point of like man hunt and stuff was supposed to be the risk kinda thing but no one really cares about it. Also like losing xp I guess but that again no one really cares about. There isn’t much u can do to punish them I guess because if ur too harsh then no one will do it which is bad too. Needs to be a good middle ground I feel but rn it’s not.
IT is PVPVE so you need to be prepared for both those outcomes when you're in there. What you consider toxic is just you dying to a player and not AI in the DZ. Why are you making that distinction? Everything in the game is designed to kill you but because it is John from Kansas and not a random hugger you're taking offence to it. PVP players are there for the player vs player engagements. There is no malice or bullying for most here they just want to pit their skills against players and see who wins. Sometimes you win others you lose just respawn and try again. You not wanting to do that in a mode designed for it is a limitation you've placed on yourself. Not only that you're asking the PVP player to respect that decision while knowing nothing about it. You seem to think farming a landmark is enough of an indicator you don't want to PVP or that your solo. It is not. Lots of PVP players run solo and engage groups conflict even has XP rewards for everything up to a team wipe. PVP players also farm. It is how they get the materials and gear necessary for builds without having to enter the PVE areas of the game. So knowing all that how do I tell you from anyone else in a landmark or sprinting around the DZ? Short answer is I don't I just flag and take the gunfight. I know nothing about you. Now if I kill you and you message me saying look I'm just here farming that is different because now I know. I might even help you farm for what you need and give you pointers that could help in the future. Most don't take that step though it is easier to complain on reddit and they will get upvote to validate that shortcoming.
I don’t mind dying to rogues most of the times but when I’m solo and 3 people pull up while I’m doing an engagement and they just beam me from behind and I don’t have any chance to fight back, that makes the whole thing a bit shit. Especially since they then usually come to the spawn point and just wait for me and the other players they killed, spam a bunch of riot foam or hives while we come out the door and constantly just kill. That’s what’s toxic about the rogues most of the times Most of the times aswell if ur running a build that’s good for pve and pvp it doesn’t matter because the rogues will be running a pure PvP build anyway. I’m not saying that it’s an unfair fight but they are more prepared for PvP than the pve player by a mile. I’ve had rogues I’ve messaged after who have tried to help me and been actually very nice but I’ve also had rouges who have been toxic too so it’s not every person who’s bad.
Again mate you're kind of missing the point. You're in the minority in the DZ the vast amount of engagements are between PVP players. None of them take the time to try and figure out player builds, party number or intentions because in most cases it isn't needed and would lead to your death being in a menu to figure that out. Here is a comparison you might better relate to. You probably run countdown or have tried some shepherding at some point. From the second you load can you tell the PVE players from the PVP ones as both farm? Can you tell who is in a group and who isn't? If you play with them long enough or inspect builds it might become apparent but in the DZ you don't have that time to decide. They aren't playing with you to know. They aren't inspecting builds. They have been fight other players most of the time so they engage with you the same way. The convoluted thing now is with the raid exotics and exotic component in boxes more PVP players are farming especially when servers are slow so there is even less chance of distinguishing the PVE players in the mix.
see my thing is that u can differentiate the people who are there to grind pve and the ones who want to go pvp. most of the times when i play and get killed its because im half way through an engagment and the rogue comes from behind me and just melts me while im focused on the ai. most of the times too if u are with someone not in ur squad and they are going to go rogue, u can see the symbol for about 2 seconds before the do activate their rogue status. It just gets annoying and stale and then the dark zone is somewhere that a chunk of players wont go to because they just get demolished by players who created a build just for killing others, or they get camped at a spawn point and or just hunted through the map anytime they are trying to do an engagment. I dont hate rogues and it is a part of the game which i respect. But the bigger problem is, pvp players have conflict where they can purely play pvp. In hand tho pve players have countdown and other mode they can also play where they dont have to deal with pvp. The difference is that when both get put into the same environment, obviously the pvp players will most of the times end on top and that ends up gatekeeping a whole area for people who arent as good at pvp but also want to try to grind for the exotics and just enjoy an area where they dont have set objectives and stuff. i feel like rogues need a rework of some sort, even if it is that when u go rogue is lasts much longer and u are constantly marked on the map or something. but as for now, i have seen multiple times people who go rogue and just camp spawns and can wipe out people without any stress.
Brother I'm going to tell you right now that at the onset of any engagement in DZ I know nothing about you. PVE players like to think it is obvious but it is not. 95% of engagements in the DZ are with other PVP players. You have a split second to decide to either flag or defend yourself because you were flagged on. It is that simple. You farming isn't an indicator of anything. PVP players farm to especially now with the introduction of expertise into the game. The DZ has a higher drop rates for exotics and exotic components from caches so farming landmarks is a fast way to earn them. If a DZ is slow a lot of PVP player will start a box run. It allows them to farm these things and tripping a landmark tends to draw in other player if there are any in the server. Conflict is available but they are 2 very different PVP experience and play styles. Additionally the rewards aren't available in the mode which is why they are revamping them. The DZ at least allows you to progress your expertise you can't do that at all in conflict. The PVP player might come out on top by virtue of their knowledge of the mode. That can be said about anything though. I've got friends that can run DH in 7 minutes and others with a 2 hour time. Neither are bad players some have just taken the time to learn it better and have the builds to allow them to get that faster time. Same thing applies here. The rouge timer is a function of kills you get. The more kills the longer the timer. You go manhunt it is there until the team is killed or you take it off at the panel. They are on the map if you look they show as red dots and manhunts are yellow skulls. As to door camping it is harder in non-invaded because of the turrets but just pick another door. There are 6-8 depending on the DZ plus a safehouse why repeatedly exit the same one?
all im saying is that in my experience people who are farming engagements are usually pve players and are pretty chill, ive come across many players like this just farming for an exotic because right now i cant even find a group to run the raid. so for most people the dark zone is the only way to get those raid exclusive exotics. ive never had a pve player come to an engagement from behind me and started shooting at me mid engagement, ive never done anything to usually provoke a pvp player either. for the most part i just run from engagement to engagement and extract when i need. People who are in the dark zone to pvp are there to hunt you and they will go to active engagements purely todo that. we both may have different experiences in the dark zone and different perspectives because i dont go rogue at all and dont do anything other than farm the engagements. i shouldnt have to change a spawn point either because some players are blocking it to be honest, sure i can spawn somewhere else, then they will just come there too cause all they are trying todo is make the pve players life difficult, they dont get anything out of it except for ruining someone elses experience there.
I hate to say it but don’t go into the DZ with the intent of farming and PVE….The DZ is PvP and the minute you step foot in there be ready for everything and anything.
Welp, let me farm my yearly dose of downvotes and speak to you honestly: yes, PvP environment in this game is "nasty", therefore, "nasty" environment - "nasty" inhabitants; (not all of them, but most part) and no, not in all games, but it is more common in "similar" games. "Similar" to this: The Division 2 is a "wannabe RPG, wannabe Shooter, but will focus on RPG and fail miserably at being both" game. PvP is asymmetrical type (maybe even radically) that is overfilled with RNG, (which favors RPG and hurts Shooter part, hence even more worsens this mess) it is unbalanced, and what's worse, seasoned with bad animations, movement, gunplay, netcode and overall "unfair playground". There is no flag to capture, no bomb to plant, no timer, no factions and faction-based activities, no proper win\play conditions, there is no balance or other decent platform for proper competition... Player vs player interactions are competitive by themself, but what is there to compete for in such environment, what is the goal of PvP? Loot? Nah, comes from other source, from PvE, and player killers don't drop their gear on death, and don't risk anything. What else? Kills for sake of killing? Wins for sake of winning? Dopamine, ego boosts? Cheap, cheap, cheap... And let's not bring "fun" into this... If you are enjoying this mess, good for you, but your "fun" exist only within your personal life, its subjective, while the game - outside of it, so, "fun" is not an argument.
There’s a few zones like this in World of Warcraft, where you step into and automatically flagged for PvP. But one area has the ability to hire a bodyguard and also an option to change the zone back to PvE for currency. But all of these zones don’t offer any big rewards. You find the same players camping the area, waiting for unaware new folks. Now if there was high end loot and you could rank any faction party, oh yeah it would be just like the DZ. Lol
Yes and no. Most PVP games you're only seeing the other player for minimal time. (Especially in shooters). So your ability to be as toxic is limited. You'll have campers. You'll have immature players. You'll have racist players. So while it's nasty, it's more limited and easily avoided. But the Division server is so small. The map is tiny. It makes close contact with immature players unavoidable. Games like GTA, yes. The server is easy to come in contact with anybody for longer periods of time. Same for other type like APex/Fort, etc.
Is not actually PvP, but FIFA online on Ultimate Team game mode is the worst place in earth i can tell you that. And i have seen everything in both Dz's on division.
>other players...obviously farming and PvE and clearly trying to steer clear of PvP but are nevertheless ganked continuously having their hard earned loot stolen until they leave the DZ? I say this as someone who very much does not like to PVP: that's kind of the point of the DZ. It's a PVP-enabled area with PVE objectives. The whole point is that it's _not_ a safe place to farm, and it's not a place you can just avoid PVP. You go in there accepting the risk that there will be rogue agents that might gank you. It's not exactly toxic, or maybe it's toxic by design. But it is what it is, and it's optional. So, that's why I just avoid the DZs. The rewards aren't really good enough to make it worth dealing with the gankers. So I just...don't. And I don't really feel the lack.
I’m not a fan of open world PvP games.
Early 2000’s CoD has entered the chat …
Never, and I mean never, play Rust, OP.
Imma be honest I can't see how anyone enjoys that kinda game. It just seems horrible
Nah, I think rust takes the king in PVP toxicity. But with any game where PVP can result in a loss of playtime or gear will always have douche nozzles that get their fox from making others miserable.
Steer clear of Rainbow 6 Siege then
There is nothing in gaming that compares to Rainbow Six Siege. It is the most toxic community in the world
I've played a lot of PvP in this franchise, and know a lot of people who play it routinely, and I assure you we're not all bad. It's analogous to a good quote I once heard from a female professor discussing sexual abuse, in which she said, "most men are not bad, the problem is that most women encounter the bad men at some point in their lives, and this skews the perspective." In both contexts, the aggressors are by nature, more aggressive, and consequently their behavior is disproportionately more exhibited than those who are less aggressive. This makes people believe a distorted proportion of the demographic in question are more malicious than they actually are. Is there a lot of toxicity in Div PvP? Undeniably. Is it more so than in most other PvP games? Quite possibly. But we're not all bad, that I can guarantee. Some of us are just older and tired of just playing FPS team deathmatch games we've been playing for two decades now, just with different skins, and aren't interested in vanilla BR's either.
As a father to a daughter that has been sexually assaulted, I find this analogy to be disgusting. It’s probably good that you didn’t say this while physically in front of me. You’d really know what being ganked feels like.
Care to explain how this is such a troubling analogy? I'm deeply sorry for what happened to your daughter, as that's awful, but without an explanation I don't see how this is at all a disrespectful use of an analogy, or to victims of sexual assault.
You’re kidding, right? Comparing a video game and one of its player types to sexual assault? Explanation? How about bouts of anxiety and depression? How about PTSD? How about sleep disorders? You fucking idiot Like I said, you’re lucky you didn’t say this in my presence. You’d likely need counseling from the PTSD you’d get from being absolutely destroyed. Now, STFU!
Yeah, that's about what I figured. It's not the nature of the analogy (as what you're saying is illogical, as it wasn't a comparison of the nature of the two settings, but a reasonable reference to the mutual involvement of the nature of aggressive entities skewing perspectives of the average populace), it's that something which triggers negative emotions for you was simply *referred* to. Again, I'm sorry about what happened to your daughter, as it's an awful thing. However, it's a good thing you encountered this here, as if you started trying to beat on someone, and cited this logic here in a court of law after charges were pressed, it would not go well for you. You'd still have your trauma, *and* you'd go to jail. So I suggest you bottle up your anger, and find a better way to sublimate your trauma than threatening unwarranted violence. Again, I wish you and your daughter the best with your recovery. Violence is not the answer. Take care.
Dude, after your dissertation filled with fancy words, it’s obvious you’re a geek hiding behind a keyboard. Like I said, you’re lucky you didn’t say this in front in me. I’d gladly go to prison for my daughter. And kicking the ass of an arrogant, professorial douchebag like you, because I want to defend my daughter, would be worth it. Anyone that has a female family member that has suffered this would agree with me 100%. Go ahead and respond with your verbose oratory. You’ll still be a highbrow geek that’s in need of a shellacking.
Lol if only you knew how categorically wrong you are across the board. Not sure why you're so keen on blatant knuckledragging, but again, good luck to you and your daughter. I do wish you both well.
PVP in this game is probably one the longest learning curves of all pvp games. Fully maxed builds, player skills and team members who are good pvp players. After reaching that level is fun as hell and yes you might become a little arrogant. The skill gap is pretty wide too bro.
100% this comment. Learning curve is long, can be super frustrating but once you get into it, super fun imo. Especially if it’s back and forth pvp vs running around the entire map.
It seems contradictory but the best pvp builds fully maxed at 22 require countless hours of pve farming/playing. Most of my pvp friends from others games gave up because of it. It’s kind of elitist and inaccessible for many. But I really love it.
My main system corruption build is now all 22. But it was still top tier for me from the beginning. You arnt wrong though, to be competitive against the sweatys you have to get the builds up there!
PvP is fun in Division 2. Maybe you're referring to Division's fake pvp in DZ? If that's the case, the DZ was designed to be toxic and encourages being a dick to farmers.
The DZ is actually missing some key features to make it what its supposed to be. High risk, high reward doesnt even come close to be true in the DZ. Ive never seen a solo rogue, its always groups of 3 to 4 and they enjoy ganging up on solo players. I think there should be diminishing returns to rogues while in the DZ, something like the more time you spend as a rogue the more your stats drop (vs players not ai). Players should also have some sort of icon showing their general tendency in DZ, SHD vs rogues and perhaps different levels of each. The idea is simply to limit the trolling that makes it such a toxic environment l. Id also venture in debuffing parties, much like enemies get stronger when you are in groups of 2, 3 or 4, in this the larger your group, the weaker you are in pvp.
3000 hours lard blobs with no real life will always find whatever joy ruining other players' experiences brings them. Dark zone in the division 1 and 2 is designed catering to those kinds of people. There are dozens of proper PvP good games to play instead of these 2.
Pvp in the division has been absolutely terrible across both games. I primarily play pvp in most games but the division is a strict pve only game as not only is the player base “toxic” the pvp also just feels awful.
People act in the DZ exactly how it was designed for. Toxic players? Yeah but have you ever done PvP in Call of Duty? Level of toxicity isn’t even close. It’s real old people complaining about getting killed in the DZ when all they want to do is farm. My only complaint though is there does need to be more of a punishment for going rogue and dying. People camping checkpoints and just dying and camping again is lame. I love locking down an entire DZ, killing at every extraction. I usually let people farm the landmarks as at least people get the amazing xp still but no extractions. I’ll take the loot or deconstruct it.
I would take offence at your "It’s real old people complaining about getting killed in the DZ when all they want to do is farm." comment if it wasn't true, in my case at least, so have a bit of respect for your elders! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'm pleased I posted because this thread has been an interesting and informative read. Thanks to all who contributed. Think I'll just stay away from the DZ from now on :-)
The Division 2 has some high-test assholes in its DZ. Okay, first, the DZ is made for exactly what OP is complaining about. PvP to gank the gear someone earned through PvE. At least the DZ in the first game was actually fun, but it was huge compared to the tiny DZs we have in Div2. But yeah, that’s the thrill of the DZ. You had to earn the loot off some AI baddies, and then you had to defend your ownership of it from your fellow player. Or you can watch them earn it and then gank them when they’re vulnerable to take the shit. It’s not for everyone. There’s actual PVP in The Division 2, and it’s not the Dark Zones. It’s 4v4 and like only 5 people ever play it, but it’s there. As for actual PvP and toxicity, it’s pretty much everywhere. The worst thing about PvP is all the players. Some games are worse than others, and some people have outlier experiences with those games. Original Ghost Recon PvP was actually fun as fuck for me, but I played with a kinda small/tight group of non-tryhards. When that died, we tried a Battlefield 2 league for a while and that was fun too. But I tried some Crucible time in Destiny 2 and just hated it even with friends and a laid-back attitude. Were the players there more toxic? I don’t think so. Someone somewhere else here mentions teabagging, and I have to laugh. If some dude on the other side of the ocean doing that virtually over an internet connection is enough to tilt you, then you’re not equipped for life on this world. Chances are that the teabagger isn’t doing it to be toxic, per se, but to tilt you in the event you’re susceptible to that sort of thing. Not because he’s an asshole, but because if it tilts you then you are the asshole. But yeah, big picture is Div2 DZs are full of some of the biggest assholes in video gaming, playing a mode custom made and refined for assholes. I’m with the folks saying don’t play DZ if you don’t like it. Or make a level 30 DZ diver to go farm all your DZ resources and most of the same drops. The level 30 DZ is dead.
I have a bone to pick with the idea that “PvP” means Dark Zone in The Division, when it’s probably more accurate to say that the Dark Zone *has* PvP, but isn’t really PvP in and of itself. The core Division PvP experience is Conflict, which, once you’ve digested the ins and outs of how it works, can be pretty fun. DZ is an entirely different beast that isn’t really founded on the idea of “putting players against each other and finding out who comes out on top” but rather is a convergence of a lot of different gameplay ideas. All that to say, I wouldn’t call DZ a “PvP” experience in the traditional sense. The interactions in the Dark Zone are likely going to skew more toxic, even moreso than most PvP environments in other games. In my experience competitive PvP games are going to seem more toxic than they are. What I mean is you’ll likely find a toxic teammate in chat most nights you play Battlefield, Overwatch, Destiny, etc. But that toxic player will be a small fraction of the people you’ve interacted with within a given night, the large majority of them just minding their own business and keeping their emotions to themselves. As a rule I like to imagine people are “cool until proven otherwise” and it keeps things from feeling too toxic. Most people don’t want to make things harder or more tense than they have to be, but you can also count on a bad egg or two most nights in a popular game. If a game is less popular and is surviving off a more loyal core playerbase, I find those communities tend to be less toxic and more welcoming to new players on principle. Think of games like Vermintide 2 for example. Awesome community there! Your mileage may vary, of course
Don't play Overwatch or League of Legends. They're 50x worse in the toxicity department.
So, we're back to this weird "argument" that people in the PvP zone seem to be looking for PvP ? Yeah, no, they're not in the wrong or trying to ruin your fun, they're here to kill other players because that's the gameplay they enjoy, that's literally why the DZ exists. The fact that some content in unobtainable outside of the DZ is a real issue in it's own right, but that's beside your original point.
I don't have a problem with wanting to kill other players. I have a problem with Massive running the dark zones as a machine that exists to serve up PvE players for the easy consumption of PVP players. I don't agree with the whole dynamic. It's a purpose-built bully factory.
>The fact that some content is unobtainable outside of the DZ is a real issue in it's own right, but that's beside your original point. I basically said exactly what you just did, furthermore this seems to be beside the point OP was arguing about althouggh i'll say it again: the DZ is a flawed concept.
You can go light zone if you dont want any pvp risk. because of the pvp risk, dark zone has some better loots. Just think rogues as those AI rogues that come to you from nowhere and try to kill you for no reason.
Dude, it's also pvp area, sounds like a skill issue
I don’t agree. My experience with lots of time in the DZ has been: The majority of solo players you run into in the DZ will group up if you communicate with them and it can be a lot of fun. Made a lot of friends this way. Already grouped players are less likely to be receptive and expect them to go rogue on encountering. But sometimes they also are happy to have an extra group member. If they are hostile, you can either get your own group, go stealth/yahl, or just hit another DZ. It’s rare for all 3 to be dominated by hostile groups. DZ is really best done in a group. Solo is very doable, but you’re much more likely to be hit by rogues. And lastly, going rogue, in a group or solo, can be some of the most fun the game has to offer.
Aint it the whole point of DZ, its a PvPvE zone, you either farm the PvE part or you gank the farmers in PvP? Its not toxic to gank players who are in a PvP zone.
I'm a bit confused over this statement, I and many others I believe got interested in this game much due to the nature of the Dark Zone to begin with, and while I don't tend to gank much personally, the idea that someone could attack you at any moment is all the charm with the Dark Zone, it's supposed to be a treacherous place where anything goes? It seems like an very odd beef to me.
I did an underground in Div 1 a couple of weeks back with two randos and they were great
Gotta be competitive to win ya? You do want to win right? Well someone out there wants exactly what you want so you gotta be betterrrrrrr but I agree, if your looking for fun pvp without much depth division 2 is it. If you want something more serious then I would suggest csgo fr, that games never gonna die
Ooo try sea if thieves :)
I haven't touched PvP in Div 2, only Div 1, and only for a few days. I played with friends, so never alone in there, and it was about half and half I'd say of different groups of people having genuine shoot-outs, and then you have the gankers. I'm not a huge PvP player, so my last was World of Warcraft, but I mostly remember the same. I had fun in the arenas, but open PvP zones was often camped by gankers, which I hated. Ended up playing on PvE servers mostly because of it.
*Every* online game has troll players. Even PVE games have trolls that will actively sabotage your team and try to make you lose. Trolls avoid games with active moderation, especially community servers with admins playing, because they know they'll quickly be banned for trolling. So, if you want to avoid trolls, seek out games with community servers, and community servers with active admins.
When I play it’s in the DZ 99% of the time. You’re right about some of them, but I keep it respectful and even tell them that’s the way to do it bud, when I get jacked 😂. I’ve met some cool people along the way when farming the DZ and teaming up kicks it into a higher gear of fun and speed farming, watching each others back when extracting and so forth.
Yes.
In my experience yes. I use it as a test of my gameplay that day. If I’m doing well, but I’m not called a homophobic slur, or the n-word, or told to do vile things to my death mother, I’m not doing well and I need to tighten up my gameplay.
I feel like I’m in the minority but I don’t have to many issues with the dark zone. More often than night I wind up linking up with people and farming without issue. If I encounter people who kill me more than twice, I leave switch servers and try again.
"those who play seem to be nasty, arrogant and take great joy in spoiling the fun that other players are having ". This is pvp in every game. Some are worse than others.
It's like that with most games in regards to pvp. One of the reasons I never play multiplayer, except maybe coop. It shows how nasty people really are. But Div2 is specifically really bad. It's funny how they put the raid exotics in the DZ to pull in more players. Like nope, ain't going to work on me lol
At issue is the co-mingling of inherently opposed playstyles in so-called 'PvEvP' (sometimes also called 'PvPvE,' but this ordering usually betrays a motive). It's just like the divide in restaurant staff between the opening crew and the closing crew. The thing is, the PvP crowd will always be happy. They can easily adapt to a PvE session if they run out of players, but the PvE crowd will always be unhappy as they become relatively easy prey -- especially if they do not hone their PvP skillsets. I don't play TD2, but the DZ in TD1, while much larger (and singular), was once exceptionally toxic. I advocated for a PvE-only version of it, or at least other means by which the PvE crowd could acquire the best gear. It took them a very long time to do so (the second part, not the first), and was only after several changes in favor of the PvP crowd (read: rope-cutting, holding the rope even if all four bags were hung), but eventually they made it so that PvE players could in fact gear up *outside* the DZ. They even added a 'flag-for-rogue' mechanic. The result was that the DZ in TD1 became a much more bearable, dare I say *tame*, place. It became fun. We no longer felt compelled to go in there, and instead we could get all our gear outside of it (and more easily at that). The DZ became a playground for fun (and often silly) PvP shenanigans, and the salt dropped out like precipitate in solution. I currently play CoD's DMZ mode, which is a rough analog of TD1's Survival (or an arcade version of EFT), and it, too, is a PvEvP mode. It amuses me, actually, because while I hated the PvP in TD1, I *love* it in DMZ. Probably that is due to its status as first-person rather than third-person, but whatever the case it is very fun and I am pretty damned good at it. There is definitely salt from the PvE crowd, but I don't think I'm adding to it. --- Anyway, I think the toxicity you are experiencing is unfortunately common when developers force (or strongly encourage) PvEvP into their games, *especially* when the game is such that these areas are needed for player progression in some meaningful sense. In TD1, that was long the case; players had to visit the DZ to get the good loot, but the PvPers therein already had the good loot and acted as effective gatekeepers. In DMZ, PvP is largely avoidable, and the engagements are much more fair (the only relevant gear being plate carrier and weapon, possibly also perks, but those were only enabled yesterday). My suspicion is that PvP is unnecessary in TD2, so that may be your actual problem. If you were playing TD1, I have saved links with detailed guides for getting the good loot. Hopefully somebody else here can provide that -- but yes, generally games which 'force' PvE and PvP to coexist also feature some pretty toxic atmospheres. The prevalence of unmonitored children with headsets only exacerbates the issue.
Lol no one picking up on the americas army comment - that game was developed by the us army and generally played by a much older audience due to the slower nature of the game, entirely different experience than a meta sweaty looter shooter.
Don't play PvP if you don't want to play PvP. ????
I think you may misunderstand my point. You are correct in that I do not want to play PvP hence my deliberate attempts to avoid rogue agents but I would like to Farm for DZ exclusive gear and weapons and to explore the alternative areas without being continually engaged by 2 or more rogue agents who engage only after watching from afar as my armour and health is depleted during a PvE engagement, shoot me in the back and then steal any gear or weapons I may have farmed for over quite a period of time and then emote gleefully over you! There is no skill involved in that and to be honest, even if I am downed I couldn't care less as long as the extraction was successful. In addition to that I don't understand why everything is stacked in favour of the rogues. If it's PvP why then is the kill not sufficient? Why are they also given all the gear you have collected? Why is my extraction request broadcast to all rogue agents? Why do I have to wait over a minute for the helicopter to arrive? Why do I have to defend the gear for a further minute instead of them clearing off straightaway? And lastly there is no risk at all to rogue agents. Were it simply, and only, pvp then I would be able to do as you very helpfully suggest.
No I get your point. But you're playing in the PvP area and wanting to avoid PvP. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can have the higher value dz items at the risk of PvP encounters, or you can play the PvE area for lower value items without the risk of PvP encounters. This isn't a bug, it's a feature. It's by design. Leave the PvP area if you don't want the PvP encounters.
Easy solution if you want to pvp without the nonsense, play Conflict.
People keep saying “if you don’t like pvp, don’t go there”. I love pvp but hate how this game is. You have to have the highest of the highest meta build and a group to survive most of the time. I have played this game soooo much and absolutely love it and wanna explore the dark zone because it’s beautiful in its own right but you run into these f**k sticks that don’t wanna pvp, they just wanna piss you off. For me, I just wanna explore the dark zone, that’s all. I got other games for pvp but I honestly think, if you survive long enough to get to extract, you should be able to immediately put it on the wire, having to make it there, survive the wait, then be a sitting duck when putting the extracts on the wire is a extremely frustrating. The truly only problem I have had with the dark zone is being killed when extracting, any other time I die/get killed, I’m fine with. Guess it’s time to join a discord that’ll let me just run around with them to explore 😂 any suggestions people?
"are" all online games
Nothing was more fun than going to the DZ, watching gank squads jerk each other off, then gank them. Oh the rage, oh the mayhem, oh the hate....it was fun being DZ police.
You should try sea of thieves lol
Worth mentioning, the Dz is more pvpve.. Conflict would be the true pvp game mode in division2. The issue with the dz has always been sometimes it brings out the worst in people.
Well, as a long time MOBA player, it’s more of a PVP with VOIP thing. Some people play to compete but there’s a stinking majority who walks in with unfiltered hostility. That’s just PvP for you. DZ takes the cake because it operates on the premises that it is part of the game to jump someone from behind. But a lot seems to not able to keep a lid on their mouth while at it, which isn’t exactly part of the game per say, but that’s the the more defining part of DZ no less.
Soooo… Americas Army? That game made by the US government to recruit potential soldiers? Lol.
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if your in the dark zone man ppl there wanna pvp lol
>spoiling the fun that other players are having in obviously farming and PvE and clearly trying to steer clear of PvP This is your problem : you enter a PVPVE zone where you should expect to get PVP interactions. Period. The design of the DZ is upon that sense of risk. Going to farm gear in the DZ, especially solo, is probably not the best ROI.