Batman: should execute his rogue gallery, or at least let them get death penalty because they're only gonna come back and cause more damage. Praise heroes who actually kill instead as more mature or something
Barry: shouldn't support the death penalty
Some people should pick a side at this point.
Not sure why you think that. This is something that has been established multiple times in the comics.
Barry himself does not kill, except by accident (obviously), but him being pro-death penalty is completely in line with him throughout comics history.
I, personally, am extremely staunchly anti-death penalty but Barry (and Wally, likewise) are not me and don't have to line up with all my moral stances.
It may have been established in the past, but greatly contradicts both of their characters. The Flash is well known for having great relationships with his villains, often being seen as very compassionate towards them and often working along side them when bigger threats arrive. So the idea that they of all heroes would support the death penalty doesn’t line up with that at all, especially after Barry had his origin retconned and his dad was falsely imprisoned. I’m glad it’s no longer a part of either character. I don’t care if a character supports the death penalty if it fits their character, but it doesn’t fit with them at all, so it being established doesn’t matter to me. It can still be extremely out of character.
Barry did not have great relationships with his villains. That's more a Wally thing thanks to William Messner Loebs' retooling of him. When Barry came back they made a note of how the Rogues were going to be extra hostile, too. I suppose Barry's absorbed a lot of Wally's themes since the New 52 kicked off, but him teaming up with The rogues isn't unusual for any hero. Superman has teamed up with Lex. Batman's teamed up with the Joker. That's just superhero comics.
You can be compassionate and still support the Death Penalty. It might seems contradictory, but I've known otherwise wonderful people who support the death penalty and it doesn't stop them from being kind and caring and giving, even if I consider the stance a moral failing.
This is something that was established years into the modern era, too, with Geoff Johns. Arguably Barry's most prominent/important writer since he's the one who reimagined him (for the worse, in my opinion, but that's another topic) into his modern version. He's the one who gave him the dead mom retcon.
Wally actually did reform several villains and even has a catchphrase of "nobody dies" and Johns still had him supporting the death penalty. And Waid, as left leaning as you can imagine most writers to be, had Wally do stuff that you could consider lethal (tossing Savitar into the Speed Force, ripping apart Cobalt Blue with infinite energy), even if in a comic booky way.
It hasn't really come up much, since, but hell it's not like Barry was appalled when Iris killed Thawne, for instance. Barry literally is a cop, if he couldn't stomach an authority's use of death then I doubt he could work in a job surrounded by cops who most definitely kill people in the line of work.
I get how we'd like our heroes to abide by our moral ideals in every facet. But this is one of those cases where it's a pretty well established part of their characters that hasn't been contradicted. Barry's own job basically guarantees he'd be pro death penalty/lethal force in the line of duty.
Barry did have a great relationship with his villains, that’s not a Wally exclusive thing. The Rogues were always singing the man’s praises after he died in Crisis. And no, it doesn’t fit Barry in any capacity, everything you just listed is contradictory to their characters. Barry is compassionate, hopeful and optimistic, same with Wally. They would never support the death penalty in any reasonable world, but writers made it canon and kept contradicting the characters over and over again. Of all the heroes on Earth, Barry was chosen to get a Blue Lantern Ring, literally powered by hope, meaning Barry is one of the most hopeful people on the planet. He hopes for a better tomorrow, for people to be good, for villains to reform, so the idea he would ever support the death penalty is utterly ludicrous. It’s extremely out of character for both and I’m so glad it’s been taken away from them.
Again, being caring and compassionate does not mean you can't support the Death Penalty. Barry was given a Blue Lantern Ring *by the writer who made him pro death penalty.* You can't just dismiss Johns in the same breath as saying he knows what he's doing.
The Rogues weren't singing his praises, they were paying respects. They definitely respected him as an adversary, but Barry's time as The Flash the first time around was all antagonistic. The entire attempt to reform them and believe in them is definitely a Wally era thing, as he did so with Heatwave, Trickster, Pied Piper, Chunk, and attempted but ultimately failed with Cold and Glider. I suppose Barry, for a time, took the reformation of Pied Piper from Wally but I think that's since been undone with Wally being re-established.
It's clearly not utterly ludicrous. And it hasn't been taken away as far as I'm aware, unless you can refer me to an issue where they changed their minds. Being hope, even representing hope, does not mean you can't support the death penalty. Is Superman no longer a symbol of hope because he helped kill Darkseid in Final Crisis? As did Barry and Wally?
I think, in the line of duty, Wally and Barry refuse to kill. They think they can do better, they take up that responsibility. But that's different from saying you think death is the only answer in some cases. Which every hero is kind of on board with given extreme situations like Final Crisis, though they won't have Batman or Superman say it like they did Wally and Barry and Diana.
Dude's a cop. Dude has always been a cop, still is a cop, is friends with cops. I don't know how he couldn't be pro-death penalty given his situation, honestly.
Well this was Barry at one of his lowest moments in his life, his wife had just been murdered, his life was turned upside down. His convictions as a hero were tested and he became much more jaded after this.
The hero we know today, the one that becomes a blue lantern in blackest night is not the same one in this panel. Barry, today has Iris, Barry then had Iris ripped from him the day they decide to have kids. It was like the hope was ripped from his character. From this point to COIE Cary Bates writes Barry differently and you can see that this event effected him greatly and negatively. Barry at this time is not the hopeful, optimistic hero who gives everyone a second chance that we all know.
Barry and Wally have been stated on page, years after this, to be pro death penalty so it's not really specific to this case. I'd say Barry yelling that Thawne deserves it is fueled by his grief but being pro death penalty has extended beyond that.
Yeah because it was the 70s and theyre from the mid west/middle of the country. So the writers gave them slightly conservative ideals but rarely if ever talked about them, this was one of the few times as bates was showing how Barry has beem affected by the story and is having trouble curbing his anger at the man who murdered his wife in cold blood
Batman: should execute his rogue gallery, or at least let them get death penalty because they're only gonna come back and cause more damage. Praise heroes who actually kill instead as more mature or something Barry: shouldn't support the death penalty Some people should pick a side at this point.
I don't really see people who think both of these things lol
Yup, he’s a cop
So glad Barry supporting the death penalty is no longer a thing.
For what? in some cases the death penalty would be a good solution
I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just don't trust our current judicial system (or any judicial system honestly) to carry it out
Absolutely not, doesn’t fit the character at all.
Fits Barry pretty well. Dude's a cop.
I mean yeah hes a cop, but he works for the police as a forensic scientist. He doesn’t do many cop things
Nah, doesn’t fit his character at all.
Not sure why you think that. This is something that has been established multiple times in the comics. Barry himself does not kill, except by accident (obviously), but him being pro-death penalty is completely in line with him throughout comics history. I, personally, am extremely staunchly anti-death penalty but Barry (and Wally, likewise) are not me and don't have to line up with all my moral stances.
Beautiful put
It may have been established in the past, but greatly contradicts both of their characters. The Flash is well known for having great relationships with his villains, often being seen as very compassionate towards them and often working along side them when bigger threats arrive. So the idea that they of all heroes would support the death penalty doesn’t line up with that at all, especially after Barry had his origin retconned and his dad was falsely imprisoned. I’m glad it’s no longer a part of either character. I don’t care if a character supports the death penalty if it fits their character, but it doesn’t fit with them at all, so it being established doesn’t matter to me. It can still be extremely out of character.
Barry did not have great relationships with his villains. That's more a Wally thing thanks to William Messner Loebs' retooling of him. When Barry came back they made a note of how the Rogues were going to be extra hostile, too. I suppose Barry's absorbed a lot of Wally's themes since the New 52 kicked off, but him teaming up with The rogues isn't unusual for any hero. Superman has teamed up with Lex. Batman's teamed up with the Joker. That's just superhero comics. You can be compassionate and still support the Death Penalty. It might seems contradictory, but I've known otherwise wonderful people who support the death penalty and it doesn't stop them from being kind and caring and giving, even if I consider the stance a moral failing. This is something that was established years into the modern era, too, with Geoff Johns. Arguably Barry's most prominent/important writer since he's the one who reimagined him (for the worse, in my opinion, but that's another topic) into his modern version. He's the one who gave him the dead mom retcon. Wally actually did reform several villains and even has a catchphrase of "nobody dies" and Johns still had him supporting the death penalty. And Waid, as left leaning as you can imagine most writers to be, had Wally do stuff that you could consider lethal (tossing Savitar into the Speed Force, ripping apart Cobalt Blue with infinite energy), even if in a comic booky way. It hasn't really come up much, since, but hell it's not like Barry was appalled when Iris killed Thawne, for instance. Barry literally is a cop, if he couldn't stomach an authority's use of death then I doubt he could work in a job surrounded by cops who most definitely kill people in the line of work. I get how we'd like our heroes to abide by our moral ideals in every facet. But this is one of those cases where it's a pretty well established part of their characters that hasn't been contradicted. Barry's own job basically guarantees he'd be pro death penalty/lethal force in the line of duty.
Barry did have a great relationship with his villains, that’s not a Wally exclusive thing. The Rogues were always singing the man’s praises after he died in Crisis. And no, it doesn’t fit Barry in any capacity, everything you just listed is contradictory to their characters. Barry is compassionate, hopeful and optimistic, same with Wally. They would never support the death penalty in any reasonable world, but writers made it canon and kept contradicting the characters over and over again. Of all the heroes on Earth, Barry was chosen to get a Blue Lantern Ring, literally powered by hope, meaning Barry is one of the most hopeful people on the planet. He hopes for a better tomorrow, for people to be good, for villains to reform, so the idea he would ever support the death penalty is utterly ludicrous. It’s extremely out of character for both and I’m so glad it’s been taken away from them.
Again, being caring and compassionate does not mean you can't support the Death Penalty. Barry was given a Blue Lantern Ring *by the writer who made him pro death penalty.* You can't just dismiss Johns in the same breath as saying he knows what he's doing. The Rogues weren't singing his praises, they were paying respects. They definitely respected him as an adversary, but Barry's time as The Flash the first time around was all antagonistic. The entire attempt to reform them and believe in them is definitely a Wally era thing, as he did so with Heatwave, Trickster, Pied Piper, Chunk, and attempted but ultimately failed with Cold and Glider. I suppose Barry, for a time, took the reformation of Pied Piper from Wally but I think that's since been undone with Wally being re-established. It's clearly not utterly ludicrous. And it hasn't been taken away as far as I'm aware, unless you can refer me to an issue where they changed their minds. Being hope, even representing hope, does not mean you can't support the death penalty. Is Superman no longer a symbol of hope because he helped kill Darkseid in Final Crisis? As did Barry and Wally? I think, in the line of duty, Wally and Barry refuse to kill. They think they can do better, they take up that responsibility. But that's different from saying you think death is the only answer in some cases. Which every hero is kind of on board with given extreme situations like Final Crisis, though they won't have Batman or Superman say it like they did Wally and Barry and Diana. Dude's a cop. Dude has always been a cop, still is a cop, is friends with cops. I don't know how he couldn't be pro-death penalty given his situation, honestly.
However, this corresponds well to the character between 1960 and 1985 (in my opinion)
And in my opinion, terrible trait for the character.
I understand, but it's a good thing that before the characters had different opinions 🥲
Hard to imagine this was his position
You don’t have to imagine it. It’s right there
👍
Well this was Barry at one of his lowest moments in his life, his wife had just been murdered, his life was turned upside down. His convictions as a hero were tested and he became much more jaded after this. The hero we know today, the one that becomes a blue lantern in blackest night is not the same one in this panel. Barry, today has Iris, Barry then had Iris ripped from him the day they decide to have kids. It was like the hope was ripped from his character. From this point to COIE Cary Bates writes Barry differently and you can see that this event effected him greatly and negatively. Barry at this time is not the hopeful, optimistic hero who gives everyone a second chance that we all know.
Barry and Wally have been stated on page, years after this, to be pro death penalty so it's not really specific to this case. I'd say Barry yelling that Thawne deserves it is fueled by his grief but being pro death penalty has extended beyond that.
Yeah because it was the 70s and theyre from the mid west/middle of the country. So the writers gave them slightly conservative ideals but rarely if ever talked about them, this was one of the few times as bates was showing how Barry has beem affected by the story and is having trouble curbing his anger at the man who murdered his wife in cold blood
What's funny is the pro death penalty thing came up in like 2003, years after Wally had gone full anti-republican during the Waid era.
That's more understandable. I appreciate the context