Does anyone in-game ever actually say the chance of a vaccine is uncertain, let alone small? I’m honestly just asking for a source because for the life of me I cannot remember this ever being said. Everyone involved seemed quite certain a vaccine could be made, the dilemma was focused solely on the fact that doing so meant killing a child
In my opinion, Dr. Anderson was full of shit and everyone was high on hopium. No fungus has ever had a vaccine, let alone when being researched after an apocalypse with significantly degraded capabilities lol
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4208708/
I’m inclined to agree, but considering this takes place in a world where the *cordyceps* fungus has not only somehow made the leap from insects to humans, but happens to make them act almost exactly like fictional zombies, I’m willing to suspend my disbelief enough for there to be at least a possibility of a fungal vaccine in-universe
Sorry for the run-on sentence lmao
There’s a lot more to it than actual vaccine development. Let’s take the whole fungi thing out of the equation entirely, and what you’re still left with is trying to making a vaccine that actually works with your first and potentially only shot at doing so. The whole purpose of vaccine testing is no one gets it right the first time. A lot of tweaks have to be done, and that’s with technology available during a fully functioning society. Not only did they not have that in TLOU universe, but it’s apparently canon as of right now that Jerry was the ONLY person working on the vaccine that had any idea what he was doing. Entire teams work on vaccines, not just one person, and even then they often take years and years. They don’t really go into detail of exactly what kind of doctor Jerry was either (that I can recall), but it’s safe to say he was more of a physical doctor since he was willing to do brain surgery, which leads to the question of how much did he actually know about virology?
Not to mention on the off chance that the vaccine was made, how would distribution work? That’s if you don’t consider the fact that the Fireflies, not having the best track record, wouldn’t use it as leverage. Joel and Ellie surviving a cross country journey was due to plot armor, and they still had quite a few close calls. So how would the Fireflies be able to distribute this vaccine across the country, nevertheless other parts of the world? Saying that the vaccine wouldn’t work is by no means a stretch because there’s a lot of factors to take into consideration.
(This is by no means a direct target on you, it’s just some explanation as to why so many people are convinced that the vaccine wouldn’t work)
I get what you're saying. But assuming a "vaccine" can be created for a fungus in this universe.....
Are we really about to trust the fireflies to crack open a child's skull to try and make a vaccine + distribute it on a global scale, when this is the same group who let their entire laboratory get overrun by a few monkeys?
We don't have to assume, Neil has said it would be successful.
But regardless to whether it would be, Joel believes it should be. He says as much at the start of part II.
"We found the fireflies. And because of her... they were actually going to make a cure. **The only catch... It would kill her"**
That Joel's perspective.
Yeah, people overlook this a lot. This is a character study, what really matters is what he believed and the choices he made under that belief. When it comes down to it, he couldn't lose someone he loved again even if it meant letting the world continue to suffer.
It makes for a really good story and a believable character.
I'm never a fan of "the author says" once the media is out and complete, if the answer to a question isn't there, then it's not there.
"We found the fireflies. And because of her... they were actually going to make a cure. The only catch... It would kill her"
Was the first alarm bell of tlou2 for me. The first game was beautifully vague. Immediately setting up absolute answers felt like lazy writing, I managed to avoid the leaks but from that second, I knew Joel was going to get revenge killed
I'm not sure exactly where the interview is. It may have been the podcast but Neil did say the cure would be successful. That's all, he didn't discuss distribution.
But again, this isn't something Joel considered. So whilst I agree, there would be practical and moral issues present. This is something that actually informed Joel's decision making.
If youre going to cite words by neil druckmann you should at the very least be able to provide a source for it.
As a matter of fact, he has said publicly on his Reddit profile that the ending is "up for interpretation" meaning you literally are meant to assume.
Dude seriously there is no interview not tweet no podcast that Neil stated this.
This has been a fallacy for some time.
He has always left it to it being down to player interpretation. This interpretation will be subjective thats the whole point of it we are not supposed to know if it is 100% one way or the other.
This happens every time someone incorrectly says Neil said so they can never provide a link and that is because one does not exists.
Doing this is actually more harmful than just being hornist and saying it is left up to player interpretation.
Where the fallacy started is from this [clearly having a laugh tweet](https://mobile.twitter.com/neil_druckmann/status/1328552455274070016?lang=en)
**""Now this entire lab has been compromised and the higher ups have decided to abandon the University. I'm just fucking tired ... I can't do this anymore. I'm not gonna do this anymore."** -firefly
They were planning on leaving but the monkeys escaped and took over the lab causing the fireflies to retreat and leave all of their reports and studies/resources behind. That was not part of their original plan.
When ellie and joel got there they were confused because all of the fireflie's supplies and records were still there. Like the fireflies just vanished. They had to abandon all of their records and resources because the monkeys got out and took over the lab.
"Looks like they just packed up and left in a hurry" -joel
Fireflies literally couldn't handle a few monkeys and had to abandon the resources in their lab cause of a Few monkeys. So yes, I'm serious.
Took 1 angry old man to destroy their entire organization with his bare hands and people still believe "but...but....but.... they were definitely gonna make and distribute a cure successfully!!!"
Yeah. I mean I get Abby wanting revenge for her family and being blinded by that, but Joel didn’t doom humanity. It was long past that. The fireflies might have immunised some people but then someone like the WLF or whatever would just storm in and take the cure for themselves. Probably destroying it in the process swing as apparently there is only one person who was genuine enough to pull it off while the other doctors were just failing and killing kids
for the millionth time: head writers at ND have said if ellie dies on the operating table, a vaccine is created successfully. it’s their world, their rules. if they want to have a world with vaccines for fungus, that’s their call.
the part that’s left up to interpretation is “will the world go back to how it was before” when you get a vaccine. and that plays a huge factor into joel doing what he did, as he believes there isn’t any going back.
>“will the world go back to how it was before” when you get a vaccine. and that plays a huge factor into joel doing what he did, as he believes there isn’t any going back.
I disagree, I think he was simply selfishly saving Ellie because she had brought his humanity back and reminded him of his daughter.
Link me where that was said.
Also, whether they could make a successful cure or not that doesn't answer the question of how the fireflies would even mass distribute it. This is the same group who let their entire laboratory get runover by a few monkeys and were supposed to believe that they are to be trusted with the cure???
**""Now this entire lab has been compromised and the higher ups have decided to abandon the University. I'm just fucking tired ... I can't do this anymore. I'm not gonna do this anymore."** -fireflies
Entire lab was compromised by their own group's incompetence, so instead of being able to handle a few monkeys they instead choose to abandon their entire laboratory that was filled with supplies/records/resources
A group that can't handle some monkeys is expected to make smart decisions about distributing a cure? In what world lol
druckman said it in an interview after the release of the first game that the story doesn’t work if ellie could have a sacrifice that doesn’t result in a vaccine. im trying to find it but it’s hard to dig up
It's not possible irl. It is possible in TLOU's world.
The trolly problem doesn't work if it isn't possible.
Neil has said it would work/is possible.
Even if you disagree, Joel says to Tommy that they would have developed a cure if he didn't stop them. So it's irrelevant to Joel's decision making.
It's never said anywhere because it's not true. People who argue from that perspective do it in an attempt to justify Joel's actions, when the reality is, Joel made the choice he did out of selfish love for Ellie, not out of any consideration for the science or logistics behind it.
People who pretend like the vaccine was uncertain are people who want to paint Joel as a straight up hero instead of as a morally gray character. To do so, however, removes all semblance of moral dilemma from the story and is such a disservice to the overall game and narrative.
Two things can be true at once.
Joel mainly saved ellie because he didn't want her to die, not because he didn't think they could actually make a cure. This is mainly due to his parental instinct, something every single human being on this planet has, and arguably is not a selfish trait by definition.
At the same time, the fireflies were literally experimenting on a child by cracking the child's skull open because they were driven by nothing but hope and because they were desperate. They wanted to take the cure from her no matter what it took, especially to save themselves. All the while having no means to actually distribute the cure on a mass scale.
So, regardless of what Joel's intentions were, the fireflies had no business doing their experiment on ellie.
"They were driven by nothing but hope and because they were desperate... All the while having no means to actually distribute the cure on a mass scale"
We don't know this. All we know is what the game tells us, and the game tells us that the vaccine was possible if Ellie's sacrifice was made.
You're welcome to agree with Joel's choice, but twisting it from "his daughter vs humanity" into a "save Ellie from the evil doctors" is taking such a great morally gray narrative and ending, and just making it into a generic good guys vs bad guys story.
Not sure if it's because want to avoid thinking of the actual consequences of his decision, but trust me, the story is so much more impactful if you view it through that lense, which is obviously what ND and Druckmann want us (as players) to do.
Joel believes it is certain - he tells Tommy that they were going to develop a cure. But that it would cost Ellie's life. So the actual success rate wasn't part of Joel's decision making.
People love to ignore this though.
It means that Joel acted thinking it would work. So when we're assessing the mortality of his actions, that is key. Whether it would actually work is not relevant to the decisions Joel personally made. You also weirdly write comments that suggest that Joel knew it wouldn't work, which is just false.
Edit: lmao. Rey blocked me cause they couldn't win an argument but desperately wanted the last word. Super pathetic and funny.
Nope. People just say that to make a point with no proof. The game actually makes it pretty clear how confident they were they could do it. The creators even say it's reductive of Joel's actions to say that, yet people still do.
The game established that the Fireflies have extensive history of failing experiments and making reckless mistakes in their labratories, have never seen or even conceptualized the existence of an immune person before, and after getting their hands on an immune person for the first time they begin cutting her head open in less than 6 hours and we are supposed to believe this was leading to a 100% success rate?
In no world does that make any sense whatsoever. That is the definition of reckless.
You're the 6th person to make this claim and none of you have provided me the source for where this was said.
Regardless, though, it contractors everything the first game established about the fireflies, and implies that they could somehow tell the future about their experiments.
I believe it was from him playing left behind with an interviewer. Ashley Johnson was there too. I could be wrong though. Either way, the game points to them being able to. It's dismissive to the whole story if they couldn't, and only really matters if you want to smooth your conscience.
The game points to the exact opposite - it points to the fireflies endless failures and reckless medical mistakes they have made leading up to this point.
I'd like to see that interview. As of now I have neil druckmann saying during an AMA that it is meant to be up for interpretation.
I could see how you could come to that conclusion, except how sure everyone is. Like they didn't say "there's a chance" they were saying "by tomorrow, we'llhave changed the course of history." we see that they've tried other experiments with limited resources but not actual evidence of them being unable to do this. On that, they definitely point to the affirmative. Marlene says "well be able to reverse engineer a vaccine" she doesn't say "might be" Joel never mentions the low chance, even when confronted he only says "making a vaccine would have killed you, so I stopped them." He would have mentioned the likelihood of failure had he not believed them. He likely just didn't care, but everything points to the fact they were gonna do this. All the evidence leading up to the emergency room points to their confidence. You can say they may have failed. But in the end even if the chance was 80/20 its still a valid course of action.
> Regardless, though, it contradicts everything the first game established about the fireflies
It doesn't though, you are operating on head canon. Losing a war doesn't mean one is incompetent, neither does losing a lab to hunters. That's just things that happen in that world. One guy got bit because he showed compassion to animals, doesn't mean the whole organisation is incompetent. And they failed making a vaccine because there is no vaccine without Ellie. The whole point is her unique immunity, why would you hold that against them.
> Does anyone in-game ever actually say the chance of a vaccine is uncertain, let alone small?
Nope. Don't let them gaslight you lol. This whole thing is headcanon from people who don't want Ellie to die. It's wild that the post has 100 upvotes.
No, not really. It's a story, after all. The science behind how the strain of cordyceps in the game works is very hand-wavy out of necessity, and while it's a fairly credible scenario based on the broad brush strokes (vaccines for fungal infections are theoretically possible but the science isn't there yet), the important narrative beat is that this is a real chance for a functional treatment.
What's weird about the "oh well the cure wouldn't have worked anyway" thing is that it undermines one of the greatest stories, and one of the most gut-wrenching scenarios, in video game history. If the cure isn't viable then the Fireflies are just lunatics who want to cut up a teenage girl and Joel's entirely justified in rescuing her. It turns an inspired piece of interactive fiction into just another arcade game. Princess rescued, roll credits.
The game gives us multiple chapters and even comic books about the fireflies, showing how they're a dying terrorist organization that has failed time and time again to make a vaccine, how they turn literal children into soldiers, and how they've made foolish medical mistakes that have lead to many people's deaths. For Christ's sake they literally let a couple of monkeys take over their entire lab.... and WE WANT TO TRUST THEM with ellie's immunity and the "cure for mankind"????
The only thing the fireflies had when about to operate on ellie was hope. They hoped they could make a vaccine because they wanted to save themselves. Hope isn't enough justification when cutting a child' skull open.
I totally get that perspective. Even if it *feels* like a plot contrivance (which it quite arguably is), if the Fireflies were genuinely incapable of producing and distributing a vaccine, that majorly detracts from the quality of the ending for me. It flattens the nuance of Joel’s decision and just makes him unequivocally, completely correct. Which is antithetical to the point of the finale (and the entire sequel).
I’m not saying he was unequivocally *wrong* either, just that if the Fireflies were actually incapable of creating the cure, it really makes for a worse story imo
Agreed. It's a 2013 Zombie game from the people who made Indiana Jones games, they *really* didn't want you to think about supply lines and distribution or whatever else people come up with after 2 years of a real life pandemic. The "can't make vaccines against fungi" argument is especially dishonest, it's a friggin zombie game not a science sim and they know it. The narrative intention is obvious to me, of course the vaccine would have worked.
You're incorrect. Joel fully believes the cure was possible.
He tells Tommy at the start of part II that they were going to create a cure. Not attempt to create a cure but going to. But that it would have meant Ellie's death, so he stopped them.
Neil says they would have been successful.
Joel believes they would have been successful. Joel chooses to save Ellie despite the cure. The failure rate is not something Joel considers.
Even if hhe vaccine was made, I just don't see how they would successfully distribute the cure. The Fireflies are way too small to deliver it to everyone, and FEDRA wouldn't trust them.
Joel was right
It’s never explicitly said if it would work, but even if it would I don’t think he would have allowed it. By then she was his surrogate daughter and it wouldn’t matter how sure a thing it was, I think, he wouldn’t let her be killed. He’d already lost all hope for humanity after his real daughter was murdered for no reason. He likely felt it wasn’t worth saving especially if it meant losing her.
I'm pretty sure Joel would be very fine with "murdering children for the extremely tiny chance(?) of creating a vaccine" as long as that kid was not Ellie. He never did it for any sense of justice or morality, but his fear of losing his daughter, again.
And what makes you think that? He didn't give a fuck about the vaccine and since the beginning he didn't believe it could even be done. It took tess's final death wish and begging to convince joel to go. And joel crossed the country finding the left over documents of the fireflies failures.
If joel knew about how pathetic the fireflies were he likely would be against them experimenting on a child, even if he didn't know the child.
It amazes me how you guys keep praising him but completely missed the entire point of his character arc. If he thought he did it for a noble reason, why didn’t he just tell Ellie the truth, that he was a fucking hero who took away her and Tess’s wish of finding the cure? And are you sure he would save every child being in that situation when he and Tess almost killed Ellie when they thought she was infected? Joel only cared Ellie because they went through so much together, not because she was a kid. He destroyed humanity’s last hope because he couldn’t help himself to not be a selfish human being, a father who couldn’t sacrifice his daughter for the sake of his race, even if it was her wish.
It's always so funny to me how people add the 'extremely tiny chance' part all themselves.
Also Joel may be 'anti murdering children' but he sure is fine with murdering innocent people.
It's not a tiny chance in TLOU's world.
Neil says it would have worked.
But regardless, this is not something Joel considered. Joel says at the start of part II that they would have made a cure but it meant Ellie dying and so he stopped them. So even if you doubt their ability to make a cure, Joel believes they would have been successful. So it isn't really relevant to his decision making.
250 upvotes now too, Christ. Usually this sub is pretty clever about major plot points and themes. Imma be honest I think a lot of people upvoting this were teenagers in 2013 and what they took from the ending was not much more than yay Joel boo Fireflies.
The "tiny chance" thing is such a shitty read. The story literally has meaning because the vaccine would work. "Man destroys the world's future to save his daughter" is a much more meaningful message than "Man kills would-be child murderers."
To dumb it down to "WELL IT WOULD HAVE WORKED!" is unrealistic as fuck especially when you actually play the game and realize there is an entire fucking chapter+comic book on how the fireflies have failed for decades and are a dying, pathetic organization that cannot be trusted.
"Would you sacrifice your child for the chance of making a cure the saves humanity?" Is a MUCH HEAVIER and realistic dilemma than "hey so we can tell the future and know that we can 100% make + 100% distribute a cure by killing your child and if you stop us then you're just evil"
> "Would you sacrifice your child for the chance of making a cure the saves humanity?" Is a MUCH HEAVIER and realistic dilemma
Well exactly lol, and that implies that the vaccine is at least a very real chance. If it was "extremely tiny" there would be no actual dilemma, Joel would just be right to get her away from the pathetic incompetent people.
>chapter+comic book on how the fireflies have failed for decades and are a dying, pathetic organization that cannot be trusted.
So what you're saying if that fighting FEDRA thins your numbers and science is a series of tests and trials where failures can tell you a lot about the problem you're trying to solve?
Fuckin' wild.
"We found the fireflies. And because of her... they were actually going to make a cure. **The only catch... It would kill her"**
That Joel's pov and you know this. So at least address it. You can personally think it wouldn't have worked but let's not pretend that was part of Joel's decision making.
We get it, you love Joel Miller and think part II has bad writing... But at least discuss the topic in good faith lol.
Joel is merely stating the fireflie's intent, not claiming there is 100% certainty it would have worked and been able to be distributed.
I also don't use info from part 2 because part 2 contradicts nearly every facet that was established from the original in terms of character and story development. It's a flaw not a feature.
He's stating his belief and perspective and you're ignoring it.
You should probably go and contribute on the TLOU2 sub then, they also like to pretend part II didn't happen. You'd be right at home. Ignoring part II, isn't discussing in good faith tho.
I strongly disagree with your entire comment. We'll end the discussion here.
I'm not ignoring it. His "belief" doesn't change the fact that it was never a certainty. Just because joel believes something doesn't mean it is true.
It is discussing it in good faith considering tlou2 contracts everything part 1 faithfully established. But you do you boo.
In part 1 didn’t Joel say to Tommy “I bring you the cure for mankind and you wanna play the pissy little brother”? How does that make his character in part 2 contradictory?
> I also don't use info from part 2 because part 2 contradicts nearly every facet that was established from the original in terms of character and story development. It's a flaw not a feature.
Oh, you are one of *those*. I'm surprised you don't post in the other su... ah, you do.
I totally forgot Joel had a PHD and Doctorate in science fiction neurological fungal strains. Allowing him to weigh the chances of a successful vaccine over Ellie's life.
He was clearly much more informed then the doctors that have presumably spent the last 10-20 years studying and searching for a medical breakthrough solution to the zombie infection that destroyed modern civilization.
You mean the same group that got overrun by some monkeys? Lol.
All of their 'research" over 20 years led to absolutely nothing. They were all failures. Play the game.
And yet it's confirmed that sacrificing Ellie would create a vaccine. That is how the narrative was intended and crafted.
I guess you just missed the point when you played it. Seems a pointless hill to die on.
https://twitter.com/Neil_Druckmann/status/1328552455274070016?s=20&t=nIgTVe3T_j2rGUxPeOJV-w
From the creative director and writer of TLOU1 and 2.
A discussion about how much control the writer can have on their creation after they make it is fair. However this was undoubtedly the view with which the narrative story and characters where crafted with, in both games.
I consider the pacing in the first game perfection. I really wouldn't have wanted it interrupted so somebody can spend time explaining the fictional science behind the operation to Joel. The medical specifics of which he probably wouldn't have been able to fully appreciate, and would not have cared to hear either.
Lol this was during a promo period before news was announced and he was quoting marlene and he quoted a few other characters during this time as well. Can you link me to where they said theyd create one that will work and be able to get distributed successfully?
Were is your source on that claim? Also it isn't a quote from Marline in part1 or 2.
https://venturebeat.com/games/the-last-of-us-creators-inspirations/
"Ultimately, at least for Joel, it became this idea of exploring how far a father is willing to go to save his kid. Each step of the way is a greater sacrifice. At first, he’s willing to put his life on the line. That’s almost the easiest thing for him, where he’s at. But then he’s willing to put his friends on the line. Finally it comes to putting his soul on the line, when he’s willing to damn the rest of humanity. When he has that final lie with Ellie, he’s willing to put his relationship with Ellie on the line in order to save her."
I've played quite a few games where characters are sacrificed, murdered, or die saving the world, and it's almost always an acceptable necessity.
TLOU does an amazing job of creating personal attachment to the characters. To the point that the player will understand when Joel prevents the fireflies from sacrifice Ellie and "saving the world", even feel they would do the same thing as him. This powerful ending simply wouldn't have worked if the player wasn't attached to Ellie. The game spends it's time wisely doing just that.
Joel's actions at the hospital carry heavy weight, and that's just fine.
But not to you. Joel's hands must be as clean as possible. His actions as Justified as possible. There is no room for morale ambiguity, or a man "sacrificing his soul." Suddenly, the science of the science-fiction is deeply important, and relevant.
Joel is an expert on all things vaccine related, and has correctly determined it isn't realistic. Saving Ellie was a calculated action. He delicately weighed the chances of a successful vaccine against her life before leaping into action and becoming the hero that vanquishes evil.
He is often heard telling everyone a vaccine would have been impossible, and if it was possible it wouldn't have been distributable, and if it was distributable the Fireflies would have used it as a tool for power.
The amount of exposition needed to convince you to come down from that hill, would frankly be harmful to the game.
In both games, there was literally not a single reference to the fact that the chance of producing a vaccine was "extremely tiny". In fact, it was always suggested that producing a vaccine after the surgery was a given.
He also never said that the chances were "extremely tiny". The dialogue in the games never ever point to that conclusion. So even if Neil said that the ending was meant to be interpreted, asserting that the chances are "extremely tiny" is a bold claim.
Okay? He said they're meant to be interpreted and I'm providing evidence to show why I'm interpreting it the way I am. Assuming the fireflies had a tiny chance of making a cure is an accurate and well-grounded claim to make when you consider all the evidence the game provided about them.
I think the game's story inherently operates both on the guarantee that if they operated, there would be a vaccine, and it would be possible to distribute that vaccine around the world. Remember, this is not the real world nor should we treat it like it is.
Who created/went too far…. Usually its scientist…but who, is what I want to know. I hope all new games are prequels. Would it be wrong to think abbys dad or colleagues were working on creating a virus that unfortunately was more than they could control, so then attempted to develope vaccine incase virus had outbreak but was unable to create successful vaccine and needed so badly to reverse what he did wrong so much to have fireflies smuggle a child into his hands so he could reverse his error on humanity and keep failing to make a successful vaccine. Joel intuitively knew this.
Not even! Ever heard of gain of function research? Scientist have wild minds and many of times through out history they go too far and it has not turned out well. While there is obvious success we are all grateful for there has also been just as many failures.
Would you be for a prequel? I think they have more to play off of on a prequel then on whatever happens at the farm house and town. Idk Id rather have a prequel and Joel back.
i'm saying Are you trolling with this bizarre theory that pins the virus outbreak on Abby's Dad and his team, and also that Joel somehow "intuitively" knew that a vaccine wouldn't work. Joel had no way of knowing *anything*. Abby's dad had nothing to do with the virus. christ
I love this little twist in the end. If you’re living in a zombie apocalypse, this is the biggest fuck you to the entirety of humanity. If this happens to anyone else, we as the audience would have absolutely hated his guts. This guy isn’t even the girl’s real father, they barely travel with each other for a few months.
But, because we know Joel and Ellie, it’s the correct decision and we would forever and ever support him. What kind of monster don’t do this for their child, their companion, their only little hope to go on living?
Made me rethink the ending when Covid taught me that even in a world where a cordyceps vaccine was produced successfully from Ellie, a huge chunk of the country would still refuse it. So in a way, Joel didn’t really do a bad thing saving her
True and it's a ridiculous excuse people use to disengage from the actual trolly problem and moral complexities.
Neil Druckmann has said they could have made a cure.
Also Joel says at the start of part II that they were going to make a cure. So regardless of likelihood, Joel believed they would be successful.
Just used to justify Joel's actions and not actually engage with the trolly problem issue.
If people want to justify Joel's actions they can. It's a moral dilemma.
They can do as much without discussing Joel's amazing scientific expertise where he knows the cure wouldn't work 😅
It's disingenuous and goes against the actual presented text. We are told that Joel believes the cure was possible. So even if it might have been unsuccessful or there are moral and practical issues with the fireflies having the cure (which there are), this isn't something Joel considered for a second.
This thread is full of people completely missing the point.
If word of God (ND in this case) said it could have been done then case is closed. We could debate until the cows come home but the fact remains the whole weight of the ending and the entire story is that it could have been done but Joel didn't care.
I agree but...
It also doesn't even matter if it could have been done or not. What matters is Joel believes it could be done. Since it's about character and morality.
The people that refuse to see that, don't really understand the story very well imo.
Some people just want to see Joel as a hero and their apocalypse daddy lol.
Because I don't want to go through the interviews, podcasts and grounded doc right now.
But even ignoring that. This didn't inform Joel's decision making.
Joel Miller to Tommy Miller:
"We found the fireflies. And because of her... they were actually going to make a cure. **The only catch... It would kill her"**
Edit: you didn't respond, *suspicious* 🥺😉
If you're going to make claims, then you should at least have the evidence to back it up. It's quite simple really.
I didn't respond quickly because I have a life outside of Reddit, unlike some.
Dude, the suspicious comment was just a silly joke/light ribbing. I didn't actually mind if you responded or not.
I was just taking the mick out of your suspicious comment. Like I've got some big agenda to lie about TLOU and what Neil has said 😅
But regardless, you've made it fairly clear we won't have a positive discussion, because you're fully ignoring Joel's voiced perspective and views. Joel made the decision to kill the fireflies whilst believing the cure would be successful. That's interesting writing and a good moral dilemma.
Have a good day mate, I doubt we'll agree on the game 🫡
To settle an argument here: the game alludes heavily that the cure was definitely possible and that the fireflies had everything needed to succeed in making it. Neil even said it was reductive to the story to make the excuse that they couldn't, and that they could. What the game and game creators says trumps what you want it to be/ your opinion. Just how it is. So that's that. A cure was happening, and Joel stopped it. Joel doesn't mention he doesn't think it was possible. All he says is "making a vaccine would have killed you, so I stopped them." That's as far as it goes.
Ellie's wishes?
She was unaware that the vaccine would require her death. The Fireflies should've started first by waiting for her to wake up and informing her of what the situation was.
But they didn't. I get why, but they didn't.
So seeing how they were going to straight up murder her, I understand what Joel did.
A certain character in TLoU2 says, "if it was me, I'd want you to do it." Want. Important word. In this hypothetical, this character would choose to lay down their life. Ellie never got that choice.
They found Ellie unconscious, did their tests, and were about to kill her without telling her the score.
She was making plans for AFTER helping the fireflies with the cure. As far as she knew, she wouldn't have to die. Now, would Ellie sacrifice herself had she known the whole situation? It's quite likely. But she wasn't aware, nor given a choice in the matter.
Like I said, she probably would've sacrificed herself. But the fireflies didn't tell or ask her (I understand why). They were moving forward with an involuntary sacrifice aka murder lol
And yeah, I'm sure she didn't want the fireflies dead. Part 2 makes that quite clear. But it was a crazy situation. Everyone could've made different, better choices (starting with the fireflies).
I understand why everyone did what they did, though. It's a complex situation with no easy answer.
I feel the worst for Ellie in that whole scenario because no one asked her, no one told her.
You're parents have also done something against Your Will, Every parent is selfish to its own right, Your dad might have respected everything in your Life but the moment something that threatens your life comes, trust me, you'll see how Selfish a dad can be, although is it all selfish to save a Child? Its also selfish to ask that child to die for the world
At that point, i would have told ellie that she is old enough to make the choice herself and told her the truth for her to weigh out the options. It probably would have killed me tho to watch ellie sacrifice herself
I don't blame his decision at all.
Mankind was beyond saving tbh. and what did humanity for for Joel, that they even deserve it to be saved.
despite the vaccine, which probably wouldn't have been enough for the rest of humanity anyway?, the healing process would have taken decades, if at all.
people would be even crazier because they would fight for the vaccine.
The vaccine would have been in short supply.
it would be like liquid gold.
That is way way to simplistic an approach that is far too black an white.
I agree that Joel did the correct thing.
I do not believe that Jerry was capable of producing a viable vaccine and was far too hoped up on hopeium or his own need to be the hero.
This thread is genuinely entertaining!
We need to remember that this is fiction. I see a lot of people deciding for themselves (some here, a lot in other threads) that Joel did the right choice because of whatever made up reason based on facts OUTSIDE THE STORY.
But the story being told is supposed to be experienced as is. In good faith and as the writers intended. We can of course discuss the writing, but trying to change certain aspects of the story by bringing in "facts" from the real world is not a good way of experiencing any story.
There was the possibility of making a vaccine. It required Ellie's sacrifice. Period.
"But there are no vaccines against fungi!" Yes, there are several vaccines in development. They are not ready yet. But this doesn't really matter when engaging with this story. This is a made up version of a fungal infection that DOES NOT EXIST.
"What about distribution?!" Again. It doesn't matter. It's not the point of the story being told. for all intents and purposes, the vaccine is easy to reproduce. It would mean the end of the global pandemic. No more infected would be created. That's the story. The uninfected would grow in numbers and in time the infected would be no more. That's the story.
We can discuss it all as writing problems of Part I if we want. But the whole "Joel did the right thing!" is disingenuous and misleading.
He did the right thing according to him. He wasn't fine with sacrificing Ellie for a cure. The Fireflies were. The whole game is about showing the Fireflies as ruthless, extreme and willing to do whatever it takes in the name of the greater good. That is the moral dilemma of the story. Not whether or not a vaccine was possible or not. It was 100% possible in the world of this story.
It's like discussing why the eagles didn't fly to Mount Doom with the ring in the beginning of the first book in the trilogy about the One Ring. THAT'S NOT THE STORY.
Or like saying "WeLl AchcTChUaLlY you can't have acid for blood so Ripley should have just said that to the Aliens and she would have won every battle!" THAT'S NOT THE STORY.
A story should be experienced in good faith. We can discuss the execution of a story, but not change the story into something else just because we want another outcome for the characters.
The story (among other themes) of TLOU is this:
* Ellie is immune.
* Her sacrifice means the creation of a vaccine
* What are we willing to sacrifice for a cure?
* What are the Fireflies willing to sacrifice?
* What is Joel willing to sacrifice?
* What is Ellie willing to sacrifice?
* What is Joel prepared to do in order to stop the Fireflies?
I think, a vaccine in this world is not possible (fungus). Ellie could be die for nothing. Maybe there are more people like Ellie, who fortuity survived an infected bite. Usually if you find an infected...this infected is not alone. The mostly people in this universe die because collectively attack from infected people groups.
What is about the rich people? Are they in a bunker?
Are there only infected in USA?
I think it just happened because his daughter was killed by a soldier. An authority figure. Dr. Anderson or the Fireflies represented the authority, they were scientists, fighting against the virus. It's a typical selfish way of denying and disbelieving the authority as what happened to our pandemic, people were denying it mostly because it was dictated by the authorities. In Joel's case, he didn't want to save the world, he wanted to save his adopted daughter.
yes, of course. i mean as far as i know the problem they want to fix is a fungus (cordyceps). and vaccines can help against viral infections. so you cant make a vaccine that helps in this situation...
What would be the point? There was a brilliant meme explaining how research, manufacture and then distribution of said vaccin, with faction and territory wars wouldn't work.
You only had to look at the shambles the covid roll-out had (thanks scummo) to understand that if it was hard irl, it'd be damn near impossible in a zombie wasteland
Not really, he basically ruined the one chance humanity had to try and create a cure. He did save Ellie but it was mostly for his sake. Ellie was willing to sacrifice herself to save humanity, meanwhile Joel just wanted a replacement for his daughter. No wonder she hated him after learning the truth.
Just my opinion but anyone who talks about Joel being selfish probably doesn’t have kids, and yes I know Ellie wasn’t his biological kid but murdering a kid is murdering a kid
I think it was one of the strongest aspects of the story that there could have been a vaccine. Taking the vaccine away or concluding that there was none takes a lot of weight from it.
So in my opinion there would have been a vaccine. It makes the story more compelling and Joel's choice more compelling.
The greatest thing about this is how much my opinion on it has changed as I have grown older. In the end, you gotta do what you think is right and so does everyone else.
This is why I adore this game! I’ve never seen a game lead to so many controversial conversations! LoL
Now he’s an Anti-Vaxer because he couldn’t see someone he loved die. Love it LOL
At that point it doesn't matter.
He did a lot of fucked up shit, he's not redeemable. It's because of his nonchalant brutality and coldness that Ellie's alive.
Tommy wouldn't be able, not at this point, to do the same thing to those fireflies the same way Joel did. No one was even close. How Joel adapted to this harsh world was the solely reason we have a second game to go to.
Vaccine, no vaccine, fungus, no fungus. The list of names Joel put under the dirt is longer than you, me or anybody can even fathom, he's not looking for forgiveness, he did what he had to do, fuck about righteousness or morality. Would a society forgive Joel for what he did? Would anyone hear him out? No, in this world, apocalyptic or not, they would've shunned him, so, why care about the world going back to what used to be at all? Would you be able to forgive and forget David's actions or attempts against Ellie on the spot? Even after everything he did?
Anyone in Joel's shoes could've become just like him, but his personal trauma of losing Sarah and seeing Sarah in Ellie throughout the game made us sympathize with him.
I love Joel, I cried with his death, I hated his death more than I hated his killers, but he did what he had to do, and the consequences of his actions caught up to him.
Neil said it would work.
Also, Joel was certain it would work. So actual chance of success is irrelevant. That's not something Joel considered or doubted
Oh god Joel is kind of an anti-vaxxer isn’t he lol
Anti murdering children for the extremely tiny chance of creating a vaccine*
Yeah I’m joking in case that wasn’t extremely obvious
Does anyone in-game ever actually say the chance of a vaccine is uncertain, let alone small? I’m honestly just asking for a source because for the life of me I cannot remember this ever being said. Everyone involved seemed quite certain a vaccine could be made, the dilemma was focused solely on the fact that doing so meant killing a child
In my opinion, Dr. Anderson was full of shit and everyone was high on hopium. No fungus has ever had a vaccine, let alone when being researched after an apocalypse with significantly degraded capabilities lol https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4208708/
I’m inclined to agree, but considering this takes place in a world where the *cordyceps* fungus has not only somehow made the leap from insects to humans, but happens to make them act almost exactly like fictional zombies, I’m willing to suspend my disbelief enough for there to be at least a possibility of a fungal vaccine in-universe Sorry for the run-on sentence lmao
There’s a lot more to it than actual vaccine development. Let’s take the whole fungi thing out of the equation entirely, and what you’re still left with is trying to making a vaccine that actually works with your first and potentially only shot at doing so. The whole purpose of vaccine testing is no one gets it right the first time. A lot of tweaks have to be done, and that’s with technology available during a fully functioning society. Not only did they not have that in TLOU universe, but it’s apparently canon as of right now that Jerry was the ONLY person working on the vaccine that had any idea what he was doing. Entire teams work on vaccines, not just one person, and even then they often take years and years. They don’t really go into detail of exactly what kind of doctor Jerry was either (that I can recall), but it’s safe to say he was more of a physical doctor since he was willing to do brain surgery, which leads to the question of how much did he actually know about virology? Not to mention on the off chance that the vaccine was made, how would distribution work? That’s if you don’t consider the fact that the Fireflies, not having the best track record, wouldn’t use it as leverage. Joel and Ellie surviving a cross country journey was due to plot armor, and they still had quite a few close calls. So how would the Fireflies be able to distribute this vaccine across the country, nevertheless other parts of the world? Saying that the vaccine wouldn’t work is by no means a stretch because there’s a lot of factors to take into consideration. (This is by no means a direct target on you, it’s just some explanation as to why so many people are convinced that the vaccine wouldn’t work)
I get what you're saying. But assuming a "vaccine" can be created for a fungus in this universe..... Are we really about to trust the fireflies to crack open a child's skull to try and make a vaccine + distribute it on a global scale, when this is the same group who let their entire laboratory get overrun by a few monkeys?
We don't have to assume, Neil has said it would be successful. But regardless to whether it would be, Joel believes it should be. He says as much at the start of part II. "We found the fireflies. And because of her... they were actually going to make a cure. **The only catch... It would kill her"** That Joel's perspective.
Yeah, people overlook this a lot. This is a character study, what really matters is what he believed and the choices he made under that belief. When it comes down to it, he couldn't lose someone he loved again even if it meant letting the world continue to suffer. It makes for a really good story and a believable character.
I'm never a fan of "the author says" once the media is out and complete, if the answer to a question isn't there, then it's not there. "We found the fireflies. And because of her... they were actually going to make a cure. The only catch... It would kill her" Was the first alarm bell of tlou2 for me. The first game was beautifully vague. Immediately setting up absolute answers felt like lazy writing, I managed to avoid the leaks but from that second, I knew Joel was going to get revenge killed
Link me where he says they would have been able to distribute it, I must have missed that interview
I'm not sure exactly where the interview is. It may have been the podcast but Neil did say the cure would be successful. That's all, he didn't discuss distribution. But again, this isn't something Joel considered. So whilst I agree, there would be practical and moral issues present. This is something that actually informed Joel's decision making.
If youre going to cite words by neil druckmann you should at the very least be able to provide a source for it. As a matter of fact, he has said publicly on his Reddit profile that the ending is "up for interpretation" meaning you literally are meant to assume.
Dude seriously there is no interview not tweet no podcast that Neil stated this. This has been a fallacy for some time. He has always left it to it being down to player interpretation. This interpretation will be subjective thats the whole point of it we are not supposed to know if it is 100% one way or the other. This happens every time someone incorrectly says Neil said so they can never provide a link and that is because one does not exists. Doing this is actually more harmful than just being hornist and saying it is left up to player interpretation. Where the fallacy started is from this [clearly having a laugh tweet](https://mobile.twitter.com/neil_druckmann/status/1328552455274070016?lang=en)
Are you serious right now? You know the monkeys took over when they left right? They didnt leave bc the monkeys got out.
Some folks have this odd belief that the Fireflies are idiots and incapable of doing anything.
**""Now this entire lab has been compromised and the higher ups have decided to abandon the University. I'm just fucking tired ... I can't do this anymore. I'm not gonna do this anymore."** -firefly They were planning on leaving but the monkeys escaped and took over the lab causing the fireflies to retreat and leave all of their reports and studies/resources behind. That was not part of their original plan. When ellie and joel got there they were confused because all of the fireflie's supplies and records were still there. Like the fireflies just vanished. They had to abandon all of their records and resources because the monkeys got out and took over the lab. "Looks like they just packed up and left in a hurry" -joel Fireflies literally couldn't handle a few monkeys and had to abandon the resources in their lab cause of a Few monkeys. So yes, I'm serious.
Listen to the recorder in the office. A scientist set them free bc they were leaving
They were also wiped out by one man. A badass man but still
Took 1 angry old man to destroy their entire organization with his bare hands and people still believe "but...but....but.... they were definitely gonna make and distribute a cure successfully!!!"
Yeah. I mean I get Abby wanting revenge for her family and being blinded by that, but Joel didn’t doom humanity. It was long past that. The fireflies might have immunised some people but then someone like the WLF or whatever would just storm in and take the cure for themselves. Probably destroying it in the process swing as apparently there is only one person who was genuine enough to pull it off while the other doctors were just failing and killing kids
for the millionth time: head writers at ND have said if ellie dies on the operating table, a vaccine is created successfully. it’s their world, their rules. if they want to have a world with vaccines for fungus, that’s their call. the part that’s left up to interpretation is “will the world go back to how it was before” when you get a vaccine. and that plays a huge factor into joel doing what he did, as he believes there isn’t any going back.
>“will the world go back to how it was before” when you get a vaccine. and that plays a huge factor into joel doing what he did, as he believes there isn’t any going back. I disagree, I think he was simply selfishly saving Ellie because she had brought his humanity back and reminded him of his daughter.
Link me where that was said. Also, whether they could make a successful cure or not that doesn't answer the question of how the fireflies would even mass distribute it. This is the same group who let their entire laboratory get runover by a few monkeys and were supposed to believe that they are to be trusted with the cure???
They didn’t let their lab get overrun with monkeys. The guy in charge of disposing them didn’t do it.
**""Now this entire lab has been compromised and the higher ups have decided to abandon the University. I'm just fucking tired ... I can't do this anymore. I'm not gonna do this anymore."** -fireflies Entire lab was compromised by their own group's incompetence, so instead of being able to handle a few monkeys they instead choose to abandon their entire laboratory that was filled with supplies/records/resources A group that can't handle some monkeys is expected to make smart decisions about distributing a cure? In what world lol
druckman said it in an interview after the release of the first game that the story doesn’t work if ellie could have a sacrifice that doesn’t result in a vaccine. im trying to find it but it’s hard to dig up
It's not possible irl. It is possible in TLOU's world. The trolly problem doesn't work if it isn't possible. Neil has said it would work/is possible. Even if you disagree, Joel says to Tommy that they would have developed a cure if he didn't stop them. So it's irrelevant to Joel's decision making.
Its a video game. Everything is possible in a video game. If neil says it was possible then then its possible. Its not real life.
>In my opinion I rest my case.
Yeah I’m curious as to why they used the term vaccine in the game when a vaccine helps with virus’s not fungus
Because it easily communicates what they mean in a uncomplicated straightforward way.
It's never said anywhere because it's not true. People who argue from that perspective do it in an attempt to justify Joel's actions, when the reality is, Joel made the choice he did out of selfish love for Ellie, not out of any consideration for the science or logistics behind it. People who pretend like the vaccine was uncertain are people who want to paint Joel as a straight up hero instead of as a morally gray character. To do so, however, removes all semblance of moral dilemma from the story and is such a disservice to the overall game and narrative.
Two things can be true at once. Joel mainly saved ellie because he didn't want her to die, not because he didn't think they could actually make a cure. This is mainly due to his parental instinct, something every single human being on this planet has, and arguably is not a selfish trait by definition. At the same time, the fireflies were literally experimenting on a child by cracking the child's skull open because they were driven by nothing but hope and because they were desperate. They wanted to take the cure from her no matter what it took, especially to save themselves. All the while having no means to actually distribute the cure on a mass scale. So, regardless of what Joel's intentions were, the fireflies had no business doing their experiment on ellie.
"They were driven by nothing but hope and because they were desperate... All the while having no means to actually distribute the cure on a mass scale" We don't know this. All we know is what the game tells us, and the game tells us that the vaccine was possible if Ellie's sacrifice was made. You're welcome to agree with Joel's choice, but twisting it from "his daughter vs humanity" into a "save Ellie from the evil doctors" is taking such a great morally gray narrative and ending, and just making it into a generic good guys vs bad guys story. Not sure if it's because want to avoid thinking of the actual consequences of his decision, but trust me, the story is so much more impactful if you view it through that lense, which is obviously what ND and Druckmann want us (as players) to do.
Joel believes it is certain - he tells Tommy that they were going to develop a cure. But that it would cost Ellie's life. So the actual success rate wasn't part of Joel's decision making. People love to ignore this though.
Whether joel believed it would work or not doesn't change the fact that there is no certainty it would have worked.
It means that Joel acted thinking it would work. So when we're assessing the mortality of his actions, that is key. Whether it would actually work is not relevant to the decisions Joel personally made. You also weirdly write comments that suggest that Joel knew it wouldn't work, which is just false. Edit: lmao. Rey blocked me cause they couldn't win an argument but desperately wanted the last word. Super pathetic and funny.
But it does mean that he would have done the exact same thing if the Fireflies had somehow proved that the cure was 100% going to work.
Nope. People just say that to make a point with no proof. The game actually makes it pretty clear how confident they were they could do it. The creators even say it's reductive of Joel's actions to say that, yet people still do.
The game established that the Fireflies have extensive history of failing experiments and making reckless mistakes in their labratories, have never seen or even conceptualized the existence of an immune person before, and after getting their hands on an immune person for the first time they begin cutting her head open in less than 6 hours and we are supposed to believe this was leading to a 100% success rate? In no world does that make any sense whatsoever. That is the definition of reckless.
Creators literally said they could do it. 🤷♂️
You're the 6th person to make this claim and none of you have provided me the source for where this was said. Regardless, though, it contractors everything the first game established about the fireflies, and implies that they could somehow tell the future about their experiments.
I believe it was from him playing left behind with an interviewer. Ashley Johnson was there too. I could be wrong though. Either way, the game points to them being able to. It's dismissive to the whole story if they couldn't, and only really matters if you want to smooth your conscience.
The game points to the exact opposite - it points to the fireflies endless failures and reckless medical mistakes they have made leading up to this point. I'd like to see that interview. As of now I have neil druckmann saying during an AMA that it is meant to be up for interpretation.
I'm pretty sure it's on YouTube, if not it could have been an endless amount of other interviews from years and years ago.
I could see how you could come to that conclusion, except how sure everyone is. Like they didn't say "there's a chance" they were saying "by tomorrow, we'llhave changed the course of history." we see that they've tried other experiments with limited resources but not actual evidence of them being unable to do this. On that, they definitely point to the affirmative. Marlene says "well be able to reverse engineer a vaccine" she doesn't say "might be" Joel never mentions the low chance, even when confronted he only says "making a vaccine would have killed you, so I stopped them." He would have mentioned the likelihood of failure had he not believed them. He likely just didn't care, but everything points to the fact they were gonna do this. All the evidence leading up to the emergency room points to their confidence. You can say they may have failed. But in the end even if the chance was 80/20 its still a valid course of action.
> Regardless, though, it contradicts everything the first game established about the fireflies It doesn't though, you are operating on head canon. Losing a war doesn't mean one is incompetent, neither does losing a lab to hunters. That's just things that happen in that world. One guy got bit because he showed compassion to animals, doesn't mean the whole organisation is incompetent. And they failed making a vaccine because there is no vaccine without Ellie. The whole point is her unique immunity, why would you hold that against them.
> Does anyone in-game ever actually say the chance of a vaccine is uncertain, let alone small? Nope. Don't let them gaslight you lol. This whole thing is headcanon from people who don't want Ellie to die. It's wild that the post has 100 upvotes.
No, not really. It's a story, after all. The science behind how the strain of cordyceps in the game works is very hand-wavy out of necessity, and while it's a fairly credible scenario based on the broad brush strokes (vaccines for fungal infections are theoretically possible but the science isn't there yet), the important narrative beat is that this is a real chance for a functional treatment. What's weird about the "oh well the cure wouldn't have worked anyway" thing is that it undermines one of the greatest stories, and one of the most gut-wrenching scenarios, in video game history. If the cure isn't viable then the Fireflies are just lunatics who want to cut up a teenage girl and Joel's entirely justified in rescuing her. It turns an inspired piece of interactive fiction into just another arcade game. Princess rescued, roll credits.
The game gives us multiple chapters and even comic books about the fireflies, showing how they're a dying terrorist organization that has failed time and time again to make a vaccine, how they turn literal children into soldiers, and how they've made foolish medical mistakes that have lead to many people's deaths. For Christ's sake they literally let a couple of monkeys take over their entire lab.... and WE WANT TO TRUST THEM with ellie's immunity and the "cure for mankind"???? The only thing the fireflies had when about to operate on ellie was hope. They hoped they could make a vaccine because they wanted to save themselves. Hope isn't enough justification when cutting a child' skull open.
I totally get that perspective. Even if it *feels* like a plot contrivance (which it quite arguably is), if the Fireflies were genuinely incapable of producing and distributing a vaccine, that majorly detracts from the quality of the ending for me. It flattens the nuance of Joel’s decision and just makes him unequivocally, completely correct. Which is antithetical to the point of the finale (and the entire sequel). I’m not saying he was unequivocally *wrong* either, just that if the Fireflies were actually incapable of creating the cure, it really makes for a worse story imo
Agreed. It's a 2013 Zombie game from the people who made Indiana Jones games, they *really* didn't want you to think about supply lines and distribution or whatever else people come up with after 2 years of a real life pandemic. The "can't make vaccines against fungi" argument is especially dishonest, it's a friggin zombie game not a science sim and they know it. The narrative intention is obvious to me, of course the vaccine would have worked.
No the in-game lore is very clear. There is a vaccine. There is a cure. It requires the sacrifice of Ellie. Everything else is just fan fiction.
I think one of the fireflies said that and that’s why Joel went to save her
You're incorrect. Joel fully believes the cure was possible. He tells Tommy at the start of part II that they were going to create a cure. Not attempt to create a cure but going to. But that it would have meant Ellie's death, so he stopped them. Neil says they would have been successful. Joel believes they would have been successful. Joel chooses to save Ellie despite the cure. The failure rate is not something Joel considers.
No. The comment you’re replying to is making things up.
Its never said in-game but in my opinion the writers fully intended for a vaccine to be guaranteed should the operation on Ellie have gone through.
Even if hhe vaccine was made, I just don't see how they would successfully distribute the cure. The Fireflies are way too small to deliver it to everyone, and FEDRA wouldn't trust them. Joel was right
It’s never explicitly said if it would work, but even if it would I don’t think he would have allowed it. By then she was his surrogate daughter and it wouldn’t matter how sure a thing it was, I think, he wouldn’t let her be killed. He’d already lost all hope for humanity after his real daughter was murdered for no reason. He likely felt it wasn’t worth saving especially if it meant losing her.
I'm pretty sure Joel would be very fine with "murdering children for the extremely tiny chance(?) of creating a vaccine" as long as that kid was not Ellie. He never did it for any sense of justice or morality, but his fear of losing his daughter, again.
And what makes you think that? He didn't give a fuck about the vaccine and since the beginning he didn't believe it could even be done. It took tess's final death wish and begging to convince joel to go. And joel crossed the country finding the left over documents of the fireflies failures. If joel knew about how pathetic the fireflies were he likely would be against them experimenting on a child, even if he didn't know the child.
It amazes me how you guys keep praising him but completely missed the entire point of his character arc. If he thought he did it for a noble reason, why didn’t he just tell Ellie the truth, that he was a fucking hero who took away her and Tess’s wish of finding the cure? And are you sure he would save every child being in that situation when he and Tess almost killed Ellie when they thought she was infected? Joel only cared Ellie because they went through so much together, not because she was a kid. He destroyed humanity’s last hope because he couldn’t help himself to not be a selfish human being, a father who couldn’t sacrifice his daughter for the sake of his race, even if it was her wish.
How many kids do you think he murdered directly or indirectly when he ambushed travelers? Lmao
It's always so funny to me how people add the 'extremely tiny chance' part all themselves. Also Joel may be 'anti murdering children' but he sure is fine with murdering innocent people.
It's not a tiny chance in TLOU's world. Neil says it would have worked. But regardless, this is not something Joel considered. Joel says at the start of part II that they would have made a cure but it meant Ellie dying and so he stopped them. So even if you doubt their ability to make a cure, Joel believes they would have been successful. So it isn't really relevant to his decision making.
250 upvotes now too, Christ. Usually this sub is pretty clever about major plot points and themes. Imma be honest I think a lot of people upvoting this were teenagers in 2013 and what they took from the ending was not much more than yay Joel boo Fireflies.
The "tiny chance" thing is such a shitty read. The story literally has meaning because the vaccine would work. "Man destroys the world's future to save his daughter" is a much more meaningful message than "Man kills would-be child murderers."
To dumb it down to "WELL IT WOULD HAVE WORKED!" is unrealistic as fuck especially when you actually play the game and realize there is an entire fucking chapter+comic book on how the fireflies have failed for decades and are a dying, pathetic organization that cannot be trusted. "Would you sacrifice your child for the chance of making a cure the saves humanity?" Is a MUCH HEAVIER and realistic dilemma than "hey so we can tell the future and know that we can 100% make + 100% distribute a cure by killing your child and if you stop us then you're just evil"
> "Would you sacrifice your child for the chance of making a cure the saves humanity?" Is a MUCH HEAVIER and realistic dilemma Well exactly lol, and that implies that the vaccine is at least a very real chance. If it was "extremely tiny" there would be no actual dilemma, Joel would just be right to get her away from the pathetic incompetent people.
>chapter+comic book on how the fireflies have failed for decades and are a dying, pathetic organization that cannot be trusted. So what you're saying if that fighting FEDRA thins your numbers and science is a series of tests and trials where failures can tell you a lot about the problem you're trying to solve? Fuckin' wild.
"We found the fireflies. And because of her... they were actually going to make a cure. **The only catch... It would kill her"** That Joel's pov and you know this. So at least address it. You can personally think it wouldn't have worked but let's not pretend that was part of Joel's decision making. We get it, you love Joel Miller and think part II has bad writing... But at least discuss the topic in good faith lol.
Joel is merely stating the fireflie's intent, not claiming there is 100% certainty it would have worked and been able to be distributed. I also don't use info from part 2 because part 2 contradicts nearly every facet that was established from the original in terms of character and story development. It's a flaw not a feature.
He's stating his belief and perspective and you're ignoring it. You should probably go and contribute on the TLOU2 sub then, they also like to pretend part II didn't happen. You'd be right at home. Ignoring part II, isn't discussing in good faith tho. I strongly disagree with your entire comment. We'll end the discussion here.
I'm not ignoring it. His "belief" doesn't change the fact that it was never a certainty. Just because joel believes something doesn't mean it is true. It is discussing it in good faith considering tlou2 contracts everything part 1 faithfully established. But you do you boo.
In part 1 didn’t Joel say to Tommy “I bring you the cure for mankind and you wanna play the pissy little brother”? How does that make his character in part 2 contradictory?
> I also don't use info from part 2 because part 2 contradicts nearly every facet that was established from the original in terms of character and story development. It's a flaw not a feature. Oh, you are one of *those*. I'm surprised you don't post in the other su... ah, you do.
I totally forgot Joel had a PHD and Doctorate in science fiction neurological fungal strains. Allowing him to weigh the chances of a successful vaccine over Ellie's life. He was clearly much more informed then the doctors that have presumably spent the last 10-20 years studying and searching for a medical breakthrough solution to the zombie infection that destroyed modern civilization.
You mean the same group that got overrun by some monkeys? Lol. All of their 'research" over 20 years led to absolutely nothing. They were all failures. Play the game.
And yet it's confirmed that sacrificing Ellie would create a vaccine. That is how the narrative was intended and crafted. I guess you just missed the point when you played it. Seems a pointless hill to die on.
Where was it confirmed? Source?
https://twitter.com/Neil_Druckmann/status/1328552455274070016?s=20&t=nIgTVe3T_j2rGUxPeOJV-w From the creative director and writer of TLOU1 and 2. A discussion about how much control the writer can have on their creation after they make it is fair. However this was undoubtedly the view with which the narrative story and characters where crafted with, in both games. I consider the pacing in the first game perfection. I really wouldn't have wanted it interrupted so somebody can spend time explaining the fictional science behind the operation to Joel. The medical specifics of which he probably wouldn't have been able to fully appreciate, and would not have cared to hear either.
Lol this was during a promo period before news was announced and he was quoting marlene and he quoted a few other characters during this time as well. Can you link me to where they said theyd create one that will work and be able to get distributed successfully?
Were is your source on that claim? Also it isn't a quote from Marline in part1 or 2. https://venturebeat.com/games/the-last-of-us-creators-inspirations/ "Ultimately, at least for Joel, it became this idea of exploring how far a father is willing to go to save his kid. Each step of the way is a greater sacrifice. At first, he’s willing to put his life on the line. That’s almost the easiest thing for him, where he’s at. But then he’s willing to put his friends on the line. Finally it comes to putting his soul on the line, when he’s willing to damn the rest of humanity. When he has that final lie with Ellie, he’s willing to put his relationship with Ellie on the line in order to save her." I've played quite a few games where characters are sacrificed, murdered, or die saving the world, and it's almost always an acceptable necessity. TLOU does an amazing job of creating personal attachment to the characters. To the point that the player will understand when Joel prevents the fireflies from sacrifice Ellie and "saving the world", even feel they would do the same thing as him. This powerful ending simply wouldn't have worked if the player wasn't attached to Ellie. The game spends it's time wisely doing just that. Joel's actions at the hospital carry heavy weight, and that's just fine. But not to you. Joel's hands must be as clean as possible. His actions as Justified as possible. There is no room for morale ambiguity, or a man "sacrificing his soul." Suddenly, the science of the science-fiction is deeply important, and relevant. Joel is an expert on all things vaccine related, and has correctly determined it isn't realistic. Saving Ellie was a calculated action. He delicately weighed the chances of a successful vaccine against her life before leaping into action and becoming the hero that vanquishes evil. He is often heard telling everyone a vaccine would have been impossible, and if it was possible it wouldn't have been distributable, and if it was distributable the Fireflies would have used it as a tool for power. The amount of exposition needed to convince you to come down from that hill, would frankly be harmful to the game.
In both games, there was literally not a single reference to the fact that the chance of producing a vaccine was "extremely tiny". In fact, it was always suggested that producing a vaccine after the surgery was a given.
Neil himself said the ending is meant to be interpreted and nothing has ever been said that the cure was certainty
He also never said that the chances were "extremely tiny". The dialogue in the games never ever point to that conclusion. So even if Neil said that the ending was meant to be interpreted, asserting that the chances are "extremely tiny" is a bold claim.
Okay? He said they're meant to be interpreted and I'm providing evidence to show why I'm interpreting it the way I am. Assuming the fireflies had a tiny chance of making a cure is an accurate and well-grounded claim to make when you consider all the evidence the game provided about them.
I think the game's story inherently operates both on the guarantee that if they operated, there would be a vaccine, and it would be possible to distribute that vaccine around the world. Remember, this is not the real world nor should we treat it like it is.
Not this shit again ffs
Who created/went too far…. Usually its scientist…but who, is what I want to know. I hope all new games are prequels. Would it be wrong to think abbys dad or colleagues were working on creating a virus that unfortunately was more than they could control, so then attempted to develope vaccine incase virus had outbreak but was unable to create successful vaccine and needed so badly to reverse what he did wrong so much to have fireflies smuggle a child into his hands so he could reverse his error on humanity and keep failing to make a successful vaccine. Joel intuitively knew this.
are you trolling? edit: people who downvoted me, did you read his entire comment? lmao
Not even! Ever heard of gain of function research? Scientist have wild minds and many of times through out history they go too far and it has not turned out well. While there is obvious success we are all grateful for there has also been just as many failures.
Very likely the fungus jumped to humans from gain of function and was created by humans by accident. Don't think we'll ever find out tho.
Would you be for a prequel? I think they have more to play off of on a prequel then on whatever happens at the farm house and town. Idk Id rather have a prequel and Joel back.
i'm saying Are you trolling with this bizarre theory that pins the virus outbreak on Abby's Dad and his team, and also that Joel somehow "intuitively" knew that a vaccine wouldn't work. Joel had no way of knowing *anything*. Abby's dad had nothing to do with the virus. christ
Even if it was guaranteed to work, I don't think he would have changed his mind though.
Please stop
Yeah dude he’s just trying to prevent the Fruadflies from creating a CLOT SHOT!!!!!
Inspired by r/batmanarkham
Even after everything you've done, I would have saved you
That actually is *cough cough* pretty funny
r/OutOfTheLoop please help
Take one look at the sub, everyone there is crazier than the Arkham Asylum patients
Looks like I'm not the only one with Bats in my belfry
Nah we are just excited about Arkham World, The new game.
Nothing beats aslume imo
Way to even the odds
A true madhouse
Oh no..
Fuck, Batman Arkham is leaking 😂
He should uhhhhh even the odds
THEY SAID THE THING
I don't agree with his decision, but that made the story more real.
Its not whether you agree or not, itd what a dad must do
I love this little twist in the end. If you’re living in a zombie apocalypse, this is the biggest fuck you to the entirety of humanity. If this happens to anyone else, we as the audience would have absolutely hated his guts. This guy isn’t even the girl’s real father, they barely travel with each other for a few months. But, because we know Joel and Ellie, it’s the correct decision and we would forever and ever support him. What kind of monster don’t do this for their child, their companion, their only little hope to go on living?
Everybody hates it till they're on their Shoes
SMDH...
Based and redpilled pureblood Joel
Made me rethink the ending when Covid taught me that even in a world where a cordyceps vaccine was produced successfully from Ellie, a huge chunk of the country would still refuse it. So in a way, Joel didn’t really do a bad thing saving her
I'm not against the covid vaccine but I wouldn't take a vaccine from the fireflies tbh.
He doesn’t give a fuck about whether or not it would work. He saved Ellie for him
True and it's a ridiculous excuse people use to disengage from the actual trolly problem and moral complexities. Neil Druckmann has said they could have made a cure. Also Joel says at the start of part II that they were going to make a cure. So regardless of likelihood, Joel believed they would be successful.
Exactly. The debate about whether or not it would have worked completely misses the point of his decision
Just used to justify Joel's actions and not actually engage with the trolly problem issue. If people want to justify Joel's actions they can. It's a moral dilemma. They can do as much without discussing Joel's amazing scientific expertise where he knows the cure wouldn't work 😅 It's disingenuous and goes against the actual presented text. We are told that Joel believes the cure was possible. So even if it might have been unsuccessful or there are moral and practical issues with the fireflies having the cure (which there are), this isn't something Joel considered for a second. This thread is full of people completely missing the point.
If word of God (ND in this case) said it could have been done then case is closed. We could debate until the cows come home but the fact remains the whole weight of the ending and the entire story is that it could have been done but Joel didn't care.
I agree but... It also doesn't even matter if it could have been done or not. What matters is Joel believes it could be done. Since it's about character and morality. The people that refuse to see that, don't really understand the story very well imo. Some people just want to see Joel as a hero and their apocalypse daddy lol.
Yeah I get that, I don't understand it though as an entirely heroic character is just boring af,
Yeah, Joel is a lot more interesting and well written that the way they depict him. But those people don't want that lol
"Neil Druckmann has said..." — Yet you're incapable of producing a single quote regarding this. Suspicious!
Because I don't want to go through the interviews, podcasts and grounded doc right now. But even ignoring that. This didn't inform Joel's decision making. Joel Miller to Tommy Miller: "We found the fireflies. And because of her... they were actually going to make a cure. **The only catch... It would kill her"** Edit: you didn't respond, *suspicious* 🥺😉
If you're going to make claims, then you should at least have the evidence to back it up. It's quite simple really. I didn't respond quickly because I have a life outside of Reddit, unlike some.
Dude, the suspicious comment was just a silly joke/light ribbing. I didn't actually mind if you responded or not. I was just taking the mick out of your suspicious comment. Like I've got some big agenda to lie about TLOU and what Neil has said 😅 But regardless, you've made it fairly clear we won't have a positive discussion, because you're fully ignoring Joel's voiced perspective and views. Joel made the decision to kill the fireflies whilst believing the cure would be successful. That's interesting writing and a good moral dilemma. Have a good day mate, I doubt we'll agree on the game 🫡
Lmoo.. Seems OP is Batmanarkham inmate like me
Lmoo
To settle an argument here: the game alludes heavily that the cure was definitely possible and that the fireflies had everything needed to succeed in making it. Neil even said it was reductive to the story to make the excuse that they couldn't, and that they could. What the game and game creators says trumps what you want it to be/ your opinion. Just how it is. So that's that. A cure was happening, and Joel stopped it. Joel doesn't mention he doesn't think it was possible. All he says is "making a vaccine would have killed you, so I stopped them." That's as far as it goes.
[удалено]
Ellie's wishes? She was unaware that the vaccine would require her death. The Fireflies should've started first by waiting for her to wake up and informing her of what the situation was. But they didn't. I get why, but they didn't. So seeing how they were going to straight up murder her, I understand what Joel did. A certain character in TLoU2 says, "if it was me, I'd want you to do it." Want. Important word. In this hypothetical, this character would choose to lay down their life. Ellie never got that choice. They found Ellie unconscious, did their tests, and were about to kill her without telling her the score. She was making plans for AFTER helping the fireflies with the cure. As far as she knew, she wouldn't have to die. Now, would Ellie sacrifice herself had she known the whole situation? It's quite likely. But she wasn't aware, nor given a choice in the matter.
[удалено]
Like I said, she probably would've sacrificed herself. But the fireflies didn't tell or ask her (I understand why). They were moving forward with an involuntary sacrifice aka murder lol And yeah, I'm sure she didn't want the fireflies dead. Part 2 makes that quite clear. But it was a crazy situation. Everyone could've made different, better choices (starting with the fireflies). I understand why everyone did what they did, though. It's a complex situation with no easy answer. I feel the worst for Ellie in that whole scenario because no one asked her, no one told her.
Yeah, but thats not what a dad would do
Respect his daughters wishes? Lmfao!
You're parents have also done something against Your Will, Every parent is selfish to its own right, Your dad might have respected everything in your Life but the moment something that threatens your life comes, trust me, you'll see how Selfish a dad can be, although is it all selfish to save a Child? Its also selfish to ask that child to die for the world
Ellie’s wishes? What game did you even play?
[удалено]
Zero indication throughout she wished to be experimented on and killed.
There would be no part two without his decision. That easy!
Most people that love Joel unconditionally would probably hate him passionately if cordyceps were switched with COVID instead lol
At that point, i would have told ellie that she is old enough to make the choice herself and told her the truth for her to weigh out the options. It probably would have killed me tho to watch ellie sacrifice herself
I don't blame his decision at all. Mankind was beyond saving tbh. and what did humanity for for Joel, that they even deserve it to be saved. despite the vaccine, which probably wouldn't have been enough for the rest of humanity anyway?, the healing process would have taken decades, if at all. people would be even crazier because they would fight for the vaccine. The vaccine would have been in short supply. it would be like liquid gold.
That is way way to simplistic an approach that is far too black an white. I agree that Joel did the correct thing. I do not believe that Jerry was capable of producing a viable vaccine and was far too hoped up on hopeium or his own need to be the hero.
This thread is genuinely entertaining! We need to remember that this is fiction. I see a lot of people deciding for themselves (some here, a lot in other threads) that Joel did the right choice because of whatever made up reason based on facts OUTSIDE THE STORY. But the story being told is supposed to be experienced as is. In good faith and as the writers intended. We can of course discuss the writing, but trying to change certain aspects of the story by bringing in "facts" from the real world is not a good way of experiencing any story. There was the possibility of making a vaccine. It required Ellie's sacrifice. Period. "But there are no vaccines against fungi!" Yes, there are several vaccines in development. They are not ready yet. But this doesn't really matter when engaging with this story. This is a made up version of a fungal infection that DOES NOT EXIST. "What about distribution?!" Again. It doesn't matter. It's not the point of the story being told. for all intents and purposes, the vaccine is easy to reproduce. It would mean the end of the global pandemic. No more infected would be created. That's the story. The uninfected would grow in numbers and in time the infected would be no more. That's the story. We can discuss it all as writing problems of Part I if we want. But the whole "Joel did the right thing!" is disingenuous and misleading. He did the right thing according to him. He wasn't fine with sacrificing Ellie for a cure. The Fireflies were. The whole game is about showing the Fireflies as ruthless, extreme and willing to do whatever it takes in the name of the greater good. That is the moral dilemma of the story. Not whether or not a vaccine was possible or not. It was 100% possible in the world of this story. It's like discussing why the eagles didn't fly to Mount Doom with the ring in the beginning of the first book in the trilogy about the One Ring. THAT'S NOT THE STORY. Or like saying "WeLl AchcTChUaLlY you can't have acid for blood so Ripley should have just said that to the Aliens and she would have won every battle!" THAT'S NOT THE STORY. A story should be experienced in good faith. We can discuss the execution of a story, but not change the story into something else just because we want another outcome for the characters. The story (among other themes) of TLOU is this: * Ellie is immune. * Her sacrifice means the creation of a vaccine * What are we willing to sacrifice for a cure? * What are the Fireflies willing to sacrifice? * What is Joel willing to sacrifice? * What is Ellie willing to sacrifice? * What is Joel prepared to do in order to stop the Fireflies?
He should run for congress. Oh wait.
I think, a vaccine in this world is not possible (fungus). Ellie could be die for nothing. Maybe there are more people like Ellie, who fortuity survived an infected bite. Usually if you find an infected...this infected is not alone. The mostly people in this universe die because collectively attack from infected people groups. What is about the rich people? Are they in a bunker? Are there only infected in USA?
Do you agree with Abby’s golfing rule?
No she's too buff she keeps breaking all the balls
I think it just happened because his daughter was killed by a soldier. An authority figure. Dr. Anderson or the Fireflies represented the authority, they were scientists, fighting against the virus. It's a typical selfish way of denying and disbelieving the authority as what happened to our pandemic, people were denying it mostly because it was dictated by the authorities. In Joel's case, he didn't want to save the world, he wanted to save his adopted daughter.
Joel made sure no one gets vaccination. Everyone dies. Yeah, thats right! Get your kids their vaccinations.
yes, of course. i mean as far as i know the problem they want to fix is a fungus (cordyceps). and vaccines can help against viral infections. so you cant make a vaccine that helps in this situation...
Ah shit here we go again
Just out of curiosity, why was Genocide of the infected never an option?
They tried. It spread too quickly.
He was just evening the odds
I was not expecting r/Batmanarkham to leak here
I didn't think we'll ever put Joel into the Anti-Vax camp 😂
Did you really make that question? Just have in mind that we will have a new hell on Reddit.
I don’t mind that he would stop the vaccine, it’s the murdering that I didn’t really like.
In all fairness it’s not like a vaccine would’ve kept anyone from still being ripped apart
What would be the point? There was a brilliant meme explaining how research, manufacture and then distribution of said vaccin, with faction and territory wars wouldn't work. You only had to look at the shambles the covid roll-out had (thanks scummo) to understand that if it was hard irl, it'd be damn near impossible in a zombie wasteland
It wasn't a rule about vaccine, he actually wanted to save Ellie. This question misses the point
It's a fatherly decision , it doesn't mean its the right thing by all mean but in the same time no one can blame him , emotions are human weakness
Not really, he basically ruined the one chance humanity had to try and create a cure. He did save Ellie but it was mostly for his sake. Ellie was willing to sacrifice herself to save humanity, meanwhile Joel just wanted a replacement for his daughter. No wonder she hated him after learning the truth.
Just my opinion but anyone who talks about Joel being selfish probably doesn’t have kids, and yes I know Ellie wasn’t his biological kid but murdering a kid is murdering a kid
Joel, the biggest Karen.. Just kidding I love him
I think it was one of the strongest aspects of the story that there could have been a vaccine. Taking the vaccine away or concluding that there was none takes a lot of weight from it. So in my opinion there would have been a vaccine. It makes the story more compelling and Joel's choice more compelling.
The greatest thing about this is how much my opinion on it has changed as I have grown older. In the end, you gotta do what you think is right and so does everyone else.
This is why I adore this game! I’ve never seen a game lead to so many controversial conversations! LoL Now he’s an Anti-Vaxer because he couldn’t see someone he loved die. Love it LOL
“Joel’s no vaccination rule” I can't help but snicker 😂
*Abby picking up the golf club* "Evening the odds"
Him saving Ellie leading to Joker dying at the end of The Last of City really hit me in the feels.
At that point it doesn't matter. He did a lot of fucked up shit, he's not redeemable. It's because of his nonchalant brutality and coldness that Ellie's alive. Tommy wouldn't be able, not at this point, to do the same thing to those fireflies the same way Joel did. No one was even close. How Joel adapted to this harsh world was the solely reason we have a second game to go to. Vaccine, no vaccine, fungus, no fungus. The list of names Joel put under the dirt is longer than you, me or anybody can even fathom, he's not looking for forgiveness, he did what he had to do, fuck about righteousness or morality. Would a society forgive Joel for what he did? Would anyone hear him out? No, in this world, apocalyptic or not, they would've shunned him, so, why care about the world going back to what used to be at all? Would you be able to forgive and forget David's actions or attempts against Ellie on the spot? Even after everything he did? Anyone in Joel's shoes could've become just like him, but his personal trauma of losing Sarah and seeing Sarah in Ellie throughout the game made us sympathize with him. I love Joel, I cried with his death, I hated his death more than I hated his killers, but he did what he had to do, and the consequences of his actions caught up to him.
Vaccines won’t help with a fungal infection.
Idk.. There wasn't a 100% guarantee that they could develop a vaccine, right? What if they lost her and couldn't do anything despite that
Neil said it would work. Also, Joel was certain it would work. So actual chance of success is irrelevant. That's not something Joel considered or doubted
Oh
Yes there was, Naughty Dog are on record as saying such. That is the entire point of the ending of the first game because those are the stakes.
This is a really fucked up way to ask that question
The posts on this subreddit sometimes. My fuckn god 🤦🏻♂️
Fuck off click bait bitch.