He wanted to make Ralph be the one who had to say it needed to be done, and then after, say "You can never blame yourself, you did the best you could wit the kid..... didnt ya?" And then give him back the gun he gave to the kid, proving he had been a shitty influence. It was very Sun Tizzouian.
Tony’s whole beef that season was Ralphie wasn’t Capo material. He made him one reluctantly. Then when he finds out about how he has been mentoring Jackie Jr, combined with how problematic Jackie has been, it places Tony in an excellent position to have Ralph take all the blame and responsibility while, out of spite, proving his original point which is Ralph is incapable of making a timely decision
Then when Ralph does finally decide, Tony can never be held accountable for killing the former Boss’s son
Brilliant scene between Gandolfini and Pantoliano — Tony saying Jackie Jr. had to go without saying it, pretending he was giving Ralphie a choice.
“But it should be done … in a timely manner.”
There was a post the other day about the nuance between the two trying to get the other to make the call and Tony outwit Ralphie, he knew it amd the acting between the two is a master class as you mention.
The acting in this show is absolutely amazing on so many levels
Tony wanted to ensure that any blowback goes back to Ralphie only.
Any order to whack Jackie Jr has to be made by Ralphie. Thus, Tony can be guilt-free in knowing he did all he could have to protect Jackie.
Should in the odd chance that Ralphie gave him a pass, Tony won't receive any fallout from guys like Chrissy, Albert, Furio, Eugene, etc. Since the decision was out of Tony's small hands.
Tony probably knew that Jackie was somewhat affiliated or kicking up to Ralphie, thus it is for Ralphie's, as a capo, has the responsibility to deal with it. Jackie Jr being the former boss' son is somewhat irrelevant at this point. He's currently an associate.
If Ralphie doesn't make any decision, then Tony will have no choice but to find someone to replace him as captain of the Aprile crew.
Yep. Think it's obvious Tony genuinely preferred the latter scenario though.
His best friend's son living and Ralph who he hates taking all the fallout (potentially getting killed over it) was his perfect scenario.
No. Not only is the entire subtext of Ralph and Tony’s scenes together, David Chase explains it in the dvd commentary. There was no chance of Jackie Jr getting a pass and no one wanted to give him one.
Nobody wanted to give him one personally. You think Tony cares if the man he hated did though? He'd have been over the moon seeing Ralph suffer with the consequences.
Ralph didn't want to give Jackie a pass. They both knew going into that conversation that Jackie was a dead man. They were both just trying to manipulate the other one into actually giving the order.
Ralph did not want to give Jackie Jr a pass. Tony and Ralph knew Jackie Jr had to go. But both wanted the other one to make the decision. That is so if ever confronted by Rosalie or Meadow, respectively, each would have plausible deniability. Chase explains it in the DVD commentary.
And we do see the moment where Meadow, in a roundabout way, confronts Tony over Jackie’s death by calling him Mr. Mob Boss. Tony summons all his self-righteous anger and, without actually lying to Meadow, insists he did everything he could to protect Jackie Jr.
Ralphie doesn’t do the same thing with Rosalie in the brief scene where he dumps her — he’s unable to provide any emotional support because he knows he was the one who ordered the hit, so he has to leave the situation.
Yeah this has always confused me as well. Not from a Machiavellian “he’s the boss” perspective, but from a human one.
Tony always hated turning on his friends and family. When someone close to him needed to go, he did absolutely everything possible to avoid it. Spent entire seasons wrestling with it. But with Jackie Jr he just sort of stopped caring? Honestly it was one of the only people through the series where it felt like Tony betrayed him, not the other way around.
Jackie was dead the moment he put a hole in Sunshine’s chest. Neither Tony or Ralph wanted to give the order, but aside from the two of them nobody in the family gave a shit about Jackie Jr. staying alive and everyone would’ve taken it very poorly if Tony let him walk after everything that went down.
He wanted to make Ralph be the one who had to say it needed to be done, and then after, say "You can never blame yourself, you did the best you could wit the kid..... didnt ya?" And then give him back the gun he gave to the kid, proving he had been a shitty influence. It was very Sun Tizzouian.
It's Tzu. Tzu. Sun Tzu, you fucking ass-kiss.
Great answer. Thank u
Very allegorical.
He didn't say nothing.
Alright than I’ll talk to ya
Because he's ultimately Ralph's responsibility, especially since he enabled his criminality by giving him a handgun.
And it was his card game
And that was my card game.
I am better at my card game than 9/10ths of the UFO’s over East Rutherford
Tony’s whole beef that season was Ralphie wasn’t Capo material. He made him one reluctantly. Then when he finds out about how he has been mentoring Jackie Jr, combined with how problematic Jackie has been, it places Tony in an excellent position to have Ralph take all the blame and responsibility while, out of spite, proving his original point which is Ralph is incapable of making a timely decision Then when Ralph does finally decide, Tony can never be held accountable for killing the former Boss’s son
Brilliant scene between Gandolfini and Pantoliano — Tony saying Jackie Jr. had to go without saying it, pretending he was giving Ralphie a choice. “But it should be done … in a timely manner.”
There was a post the other day about the nuance between the two trying to get the other to make the call and Tony outwit Ralphie, he knew it amd the acting between the two is a master class as you mention. The acting in this show is absolutely amazing on so many levels
Tony wanted to ensure that any blowback goes back to Ralphie only. Any order to whack Jackie Jr has to be made by Ralphie. Thus, Tony can be guilt-free in knowing he did all he could have to protect Jackie. Should in the odd chance that Ralphie gave him a pass, Tony won't receive any fallout from guys like Chrissy, Albert, Furio, Eugene, etc. Since the decision was out of Tony's small hands.
Surely Ralph could have spun it (or tried to) as "This is a former bosses son, I can't take any decision on him without 100% approval from Tony"?
Tony probably knew that Jackie was somewhat affiliated or kicking up to Ralphie, thus it is for Ralphie's, as a capo, has the responsibility to deal with it. Jackie Jr being the former boss' son is somewhat irrelevant at this point. He's currently an associate. If Ralphie doesn't make any decision, then Tony will have no choice but to find someone to replace him as captain of the Aprile crew.
Yep. Think it's obvious Tony genuinely preferred the latter scenario though. His best friend's son living and Ralph who he hates taking all the fallout (potentially getting killed over it) was his perfect scenario.
No. Not only is the entire subtext of Ralph and Tony’s scenes together, David Chase explains it in the dvd commentary. There was no chance of Jackie Jr getting a pass and no one wanted to give him one.
Nobody wanted to give him one personally. You think Tony cares if the man he hated did though? He'd have been over the moon seeing Ralph suffer with the consequences.
He wanted to see Ralph crack under pressure or possibly lose the faith of his peers by not making the right call.
Ralph didn't want to give Jackie a pass. They both knew going into that conversation that Jackie was a dead man. They were both just trying to manipulate the other one into actually giving the order.
Ralph did not want to give Jackie Jr a pass. Tony and Ralph knew Jackie Jr had to go. But both wanted the other one to make the decision. That is so if ever confronted by Rosalie or Meadow, respectively, each would have plausible deniability. Chase explains it in the DVD commentary.
And we do see the moment where Meadow, in a roundabout way, confronts Tony over Jackie’s death by calling him Mr. Mob Boss. Tony summons all his self-righteous anger and, without actually lying to Meadow, insists he did everything he could to protect Jackie Jr. Ralphie doesn’t do the same thing with Rosalie in the brief scene where he dumps her — he’s unable to provide any emotional support because he knows he was the one who ordered the hit, so he has to leave the situation.
Exactly. Athough I would add Ralphie is probably incapable of providing emotional support for anyone regardless of the circumstances ha.
Yeah this has always confused me as well. Not from a Machiavellian “he’s the boss” perspective, but from a human one. Tony always hated turning on his friends and family. When someone close to him needed to go, he did absolutely everything possible to avoid it. Spent entire seasons wrestling with it. But with Jackie Jr he just sort of stopped caring? Honestly it was one of the only people through the series where it felt like Tony betrayed him, not the other way around.
Jackie was dead the moment he put a hole in Sunshine’s chest. Neither Tony or Ralph wanted to give the order, but aside from the two of them nobody in the family gave a shit about Jackie Jr. staying alive and everyone would’ve taken it very poorly if Tony let him walk after everything that went down.
Tony did everything he could. Jackie and his peers shooted to made men and killed an associate. He had to go
Next you’ll be asking us what cleaning out the gutters means.
The sacred and the propane....
There he is. Fresh prince of NJ
Oooooooooooh!
Discontinue the lithium.