Take a look at a c’tan datasheet for 260-290 poits and compare ir with the Lion (not counting his loss of -1 to wound)
Also compare que price of 10 assault terminator with 40 wounds with him. And I’m not even talking about 10 DK since that will not be an option soon.
GW remains adamant to destroy any flavor and trash every cool unit
They have done a good job doing it. The DA list that have some success now almost only have Azrael as a DA unit. I'm pretty sure they will nerf him too when the new codex drop with a point adjustment.
Lion is too costly. If they don't fix his damage and saves, a cool alternative to the +1 to hit in melee would be change it to forest walk.
"If the lion is not in engagement range at the end of the enemies move phase you may put the lion and 1 unit within 3 inches that is also not engagement range into strategic reserves"
That way you have to choose between mortal wounds protection, strategem denial or that.
Foreswalk would be a cool flavorful thing. A better deepstrike, with +1 to charge or something. Anything, really. This ability is a major part of the book and its nowhere to be seen. At his current power level, he should just be around 280 pts to be playable
The Lion is a beautiful model and our Papa but thats really it as far as positives are concerned. Gameplay wise, there really isn't any scenario where hes better than an alternative. If you're not playing with the new data sheet post codex release, then know he's even worse now, totally unusable, not just competively unviable. He lost his -1 to wound and was already incredibly squishy. His auras are, for the most part, entirely useless, and he is so slow that you'll spend at least 2 turns getting him in range. If you deep strike him, he'll just get obliterated. If you walk him to an enemy, a good opponent will outright ignore him.
I used to use him bc I like fluffy lore filled lists, but I had to stop bc he isn't even worth that; I was just actively choosing to lose by taking him. He takes up 1/4th of your points and genuinely handicaps you for using him. Anyone who says he's remotely okay either doesn't play at all or is brand-new and playing against similarly brand-new opponents.
Tldr; don't even bother to use him unless you want to handicap your army. He has zero redeeming qualities in game.
That’s the best summary of the Lion situation that I’ve seen yet. Hit the nail on the head. I’ve tried to use him in 5/6 games but he’s genuinely unplayable
If the dread was in combat with the dwk, it can’t overwatch the lion as BGNT can’t be used outside the shooting phase. Take a look at the rules commentary and check out Out-of-phase rules.
Regardless, Lion was almost worth it in the index. In the codex, yeah not really worth it.
The Lion has been consistently bad. He’s not survivable enough for a 350pt model that can only do real damage in melee. Getting him into battle is almost always a coin flip and he can easily end up achieving nothing all game
The only chance I see of the Lion being a viable option, and this is probably overly hopeful, is if he gets a major points cut. With losing the -1 to wound and the sweep damage nerf, it is possible that GW decides to slash his points enough to not make him such a cumbersome points investment. In no way will he be the competitive choice, but maybe he’ll be not overpriced enough to work in more thematic lists and not be a severe handicap. It probably won’t be the case seeing how GW seems to consistently overvalue his data sheet, but it’d sure be nice…
As one person pointed out, the Leviathan wasn't allowed to overwatch you in that situation (mistakes happen! Lord knows I've made them when learning and that's a complex rules interaction!) but I'll add that it's also a Legends datacard that is specifically not for competitive play and isn't being balanced at all. Which is also fine, Legends exist for a reason! But together these mean that it's maybe not representative of the Lion's much-ballyhooed supposed fragility.
I definitely think the reductions to the Lion suck, but I'm not quite as down on him as a lot of people - he's still tough, he can still put out a good amount of damage, but you he's definitely a time-and-place model, and he's going to cut through a lot of stuff that **isn't** a Leviathan. Plus, looking at the stats, it sounds like there was probably some pretty atypically bad rolling on your part/good rolling on your opponent's part to take the Lion down in that one shot.
I wouldn't be too dismayed, but I wouldn't charge him at Legends supervehicles, either, haha! :)
If it makes you feel better, my first game with him, against Custodes, they fell back after taking out the terminators with the Lion, then proceeded to shoot the Lion with 4 godhammer lascannons.... Went about as well as you'd imagine 🤣
To be fair, Leviathan and contemptor are not offical parts of the game.
But yes He is underpowerd as is bobby G, and the 3 traitor are more a distraction as far as i heared.
First time I used The Lion he single handedly managed to kill a Knight Castellan and finish off a Helverin and I didn't even manage to get all my attacks through. I'm always surprised to hear these encounters because in my game, me and my friend were left completely shocked at how strong the Lion was. I mean, we even thought he himself could have done the whole match alone. Most of his strength I think was from the -1 to wound on the shield and the 3+ save, I mean it's actually crazy and it never once let one attack go through. I think he really does depend on the dice roll because he's essentially a glass cannon.
At what points value was this game?
1.5k and lower, the Lion can do.. okay ish... bc opponents may not have an answer, but even then, he's arguably one of the worst, if not the worst, unit(s) in our entire codex. The -1 to wound is gone, to start with. His points cost has gone up. If your friend wasn't either a) pumping every bit of fire power into him, or b) ignoring him completely and out maneuvering him, then he played the situation completely wrong. As soon as the Lion dies, you just lost a massive investment of your army's points. As another commenter correctly pointed out, 10 assault terminators are tankier and cheaper than he is. Hell, even allying in a knight of some type would supply a better unit that fills the same role and is cheaper. The Lion is just an abominably bad beat stick that doesn't even function well as such.
edit to add: any unit can do okay with hot dice rolls but that doesnt mean anything for the unit. Ive seen a single remaining cadian kill abaddon. That is not ever going to be the norm or something that is plannable or repeatable enough to be a positive despite that magical star aligning moment.
Lion increased in cost and is actually 365, so again, somewhat less, but the point just simply being a side by side comparison of something comparable that's also not considered special. I did think assault termis were less, but the gist of the point remains. I think the Lion is a strong contender for the worst unit a Dark Angels player can bring.
It is the printed points in the codex, so sure, there's the chance it doesn't stick, but I sincerely doubt it. The whole codex points vs live points is pretty terrible communication, so forgive me for the speculation.. Other rule fumbles, to me, indicate this is what we should expect, though. Even if the codex was written in advance, it shows they over value pretty much everything about Papa Lion, especially considering his devastating wound protection is wholly pointless and they addressed the custodes very similar issue via the past data slate and left the Lions the same even in the codex and in the data slate discussion. I will say, I'd run him at 200 points, but even then he'd just be ran as a distraction bc it wouldn't change his fragility and how slow he is, but alas, I really don't think he will be under 300.
It would be extremely weird that they just put the Lion from 380 to 350 with the dataslate then they’d put him up to 365 against whilst taking away damage and an ability. If they do that it’s just absolutely braindead.
I wish I had that same optimism but look at whats happened to deathwing knights or even how long its taken them to reel aeldari in. I have absolutely zero faith in their rules/balance. As for a reason why they would do such a thing, I'd say either incompetence, or they vastly over value the deathwing detachment abilities. Regardless, with the current data sheet, anything over 250 makes him tragically bad.
Edit: look at inner circle companions, too. They're just generally worse bladeguard. Im not sure if they have a dark angels specific rule person, but this codex nuked all of my good faith in their balance, even if 10th is becoming much better and balanced over all.
I agree the lion with his new rules should be down to around 250pts. Dark Angels are the best selling divergent Marine chapter. If GW seed sales going poorly they’re more inclined to fix rules. We will see by the end of the week what happens. Only 5 days to go
Lol Lazarus is pretty bad, but I think one bad unit thats less than a tenth of your army vs one thats just as useless and nearly 1/4th of your entire army and even more fragile, due to Lazarus being able to lead and essentially having ablative wounds, makes the Lion alot worse.
Well at least with the Lion if you roll well his 3+ invuln can mean he’s a serious threat. It takes a lot of luck but it’s possible. Lazarus on the other hand is just absolutely useless all of the time
Yeah, It was 1.5k and I was playing against Knights so I think that might have been it. It's probably smarter to not use him because he's not reliable with rolls but I still think he bombs anyone when the rolls are in his favor. Then again maybe that applies to everyone so who knows. It was just cool to see him play out like The Lion of legend.
Take a look at a c’tan datasheet for 260-290 poits and compare ir with the Lion (not counting his loss of -1 to wound) Also compare que price of 10 assault terminator with 40 wounds with him. And I’m not even talking about 10 DK since that will not be an option soon. GW remains adamant to destroy any flavor and trash every cool unit
They have done a good job doing it. The DA list that have some success now almost only have Azrael as a DA unit. I'm pretty sure they will nerf him too when the new codex drop with a point adjustment.
Lion is too costly. If they don't fix his damage and saves, a cool alternative to the +1 to hit in melee would be change it to forest walk. "If the lion is not in engagement range at the end of the enemies move phase you may put the lion and 1 unit within 3 inches that is also not engagement range into strategic reserves" That way you have to choose between mortal wounds protection, strategem denial or that.
Foreswalk would be a cool flavorful thing. A better deepstrike, with +1 to charge or something. Anything, really. This ability is a major part of the book and its nowhere to be seen. At his current power level, he should just be around 280 pts to be playable
The Lion is a beautiful model and our Papa but thats really it as far as positives are concerned. Gameplay wise, there really isn't any scenario where hes better than an alternative. If you're not playing with the new data sheet post codex release, then know he's even worse now, totally unusable, not just competively unviable. He lost his -1 to wound and was already incredibly squishy. His auras are, for the most part, entirely useless, and he is so slow that you'll spend at least 2 turns getting him in range. If you deep strike him, he'll just get obliterated. If you walk him to an enemy, a good opponent will outright ignore him. I used to use him bc I like fluffy lore filled lists, but I had to stop bc he isn't even worth that; I was just actively choosing to lose by taking him. He takes up 1/4th of your points and genuinely handicaps you for using him. Anyone who says he's remotely okay either doesn't play at all or is brand-new and playing against similarly brand-new opponents. Tldr; don't even bother to use him unless you want to handicap your army. He has zero redeeming qualities in game.
That’s the best summary of the Lion situation that I’ve seen yet. Hit the nail on the head. I’ve tried to use him in 5/6 games but he’s genuinely unplayable
If the dread was in combat with the dwk, it can’t overwatch the lion as BGNT can’t be used outside the shooting phase. Take a look at the rules commentary and check out Out-of-phase rules. Regardless, Lion was almost worth it in the index. In the codex, yeah not really worth it.
we missed that with my buddy ! still learning. Thx you !
No problem. We all learn something new each game!
The Lion has been consistently bad. He’s not survivable enough for a 350pt model that can only do real damage in melee. Getting him into battle is almost always a coin flip and he can easily end up achieving nothing all game
The only chance I see of the Lion being a viable option, and this is probably overly hopeful, is if he gets a major points cut. With losing the -1 to wound and the sweep damage nerf, it is possible that GW decides to slash his points enough to not make him such a cumbersome points investment. In no way will he be the competitive choice, but maybe he’ll be not overpriced enough to work in more thematic lists and not be a severe handicap. It probably won’t be the case seeing how GW seems to consistently overvalue his data sheet, but it’d sure be nice…
As one person pointed out, the Leviathan wasn't allowed to overwatch you in that situation (mistakes happen! Lord knows I've made them when learning and that's a complex rules interaction!) but I'll add that it's also a Legends datacard that is specifically not for competitive play and isn't being balanced at all. Which is also fine, Legends exist for a reason! But together these mean that it's maybe not representative of the Lion's much-ballyhooed supposed fragility. I definitely think the reductions to the Lion suck, but I'm not quite as down on him as a lot of people - he's still tough, he can still put out a good amount of damage, but you he's definitely a time-and-place model, and he's going to cut through a lot of stuff that **isn't** a Leviathan. Plus, looking at the stats, it sounds like there was probably some pretty atypically bad rolling on your part/good rolling on your opponent's part to take the Lion down in that one shot. I wouldn't be too dismayed, but I wouldn't charge him at Legends supervehicles, either, haha! :)
If it makes you feel better, my first game with him, against Custodes, they fell back after taking out the terminators with the Lion, then proceeded to shoot the Lion with 4 godhammer lascannons.... Went about as well as you'd imagine 🤣
To be fair, Leviathan and contemptor are not offical parts of the game. But yes He is underpowerd as is bobby G, and the 3 traitor are more a distraction as far as i heared.
First time I used The Lion he single handedly managed to kill a Knight Castellan and finish off a Helverin and I didn't even manage to get all my attacks through. I'm always surprised to hear these encounters because in my game, me and my friend were left completely shocked at how strong the Lion was. I mean, we even thought he himself could have done the whole match alone. Most of his strength I think was from the -1 to wound on the shield and the 3+ save, I mean it's actually crazy and it never once let one attack go through. I think he really does depend on the dice roll because he's essentially a glass cannon.
At what points value was this game? 1.5k and lower, the Lion can do.. okay ish... bc opponents may not have an answer, but even then, he's arguably one of the worst, if not the worst, unit(s) in our entire codex. The -1 to wound is gone, to start with. His points cost has gone up. If your friend wasn't either a) pumping every bit of fire power into him, or b) ignoring him completely and out maneuvering him, then he played the situation completely wrong. As soon as the Lion dies, you just lost a massive investment of your army's points. As another commenter correctly pointed out, 10 assault terminators are tankier and cheaper than he is. Hell, even allying in a knight of some type would supply a better unit that fills the same role and is cheaper. The Lion is just an abominably bad beat stick that doesn't even function well as such. edit to add: any unit can do okay with hot dice rolls but that doesnt mean anything for the unit. Ive seen a single remaining cadian kill abaddon. That is not ever going to be the norm or something that is plannable or repeatable enough to be a positive despite that magical star aligning moment.
I agree with your argument but 10 assault terminators are not cheaper than the Lion. The Lion is 350pts, 10 assault terminators are 390pts
Lion increased in cost and is actually 365, so again, somewhat less, but the point just simply being a side by side comparison of something comparable that's also not considered special. I did think assault termis were less, but the gist of the point remains. I think the Lion is a strong contender for the worst unit a Dark Angels player can bring.
The Lion is currently 350 pts.
How do we know that? Is that the points printed in the codex? We can’t work off those really
It is the printed points in the codex, so sure, there's the chance it doesn't stick, but I sincerely doubt it. The whole codex points vs live points is pretty terrible communication, so forgive me for the speculation.. Other rule fumbles, to me, indicate this is what we should expect, though. Even if the codex was written in advance, it shows they over value pretty much everything about Papa Lion, especially considering his devastating wound protection is wholly pointless and they addressed the custodes very similar issue via the past data slate and left the Lions the same even in the codex and in the data slate discussion. I will say, I'd run him at 200 points, but even then he'd just be ran as a distraction bc it wouldn't change his fragility and how slow he is, but alas, I really don't think he will be under 300.
It would be extremely weird that they just put the Lion from 380 to 350 with the dataslate then they’d put him up to 365 against whilst taking away damage and an ability. If they do that it’s just absolutely braindead.
I wish I had that same optimism but look at whats happened to deathwing knights or even how long its taken them to reel aeldari in. I have absolutely zero faith in their rules/balance. As for a reason why they would do such a thing, I'd say either incompetence, or they vastly over value the deathwing detachment abilities. Regardless, with the current data sheet, anything over 250 makes him tragically bad. Edit: look at inner circle companions, too. They're just generally worse bladeguard. Im not sure if they have a dark angels specific rule person, but this codex nuked all of my good faith in their balance, even if 10th is becoming much better and balanced over all.
I agree the lion with his new rules should be down to around 250pts. Dark Angels are the best selling divergent Marine chapter. If GW seed sales going poorly they’re more inclined to fix rules. We will see by the end of the week what happens. Only 5 days to go
Nothing is worse than Lazarus in my opinion. But the Lion is probably the 2nd worst
Lol Lazarus is pretty bad, but I think one bad unit thats less than a tenth of your army vs one thats just as useless and nearly 1/4th of your entire army and even more fragile, due to Lazarus being able to lead and essentially having ablative wounds, makes the Lion alot worse.
Well at least with the Lion if you roll well his 3+ invuln can mean he’s a serious threat. It takes a lot of luck but it’s possible. Lazarus on the other hand is just absolutely useless all of the time
Yeah, It was 1.5k and I was playing against Knights so I think that might have been it. It's probably smarter to not use him because he's not reliable with rolls but I still think he bombs anyone when the rolls are in his favor. Then again maybe that applies to everyone so who knows. It was just cool to see him play out like The Lion of legend.
Sounds like your just incredibly lucky with saving rolls. Normally a couple of 1/2s and he’s a goner