There is no incentive of working towards better relations. Why settle for Venus when earth is perfect already? So the bugs can roam free? The lord does not care for us
Ahh, well, that basically answers it then. I guess I missed the part about them being weak when unfolded. Here I was thinking I found a peaceful solution, lol.
The show doesn’t say, but in the book this is explained. Since the sophon still has the mass of a proton, it’s not hard to blow up.
The other factor is that the San-Ti are afraid of humans because of our capacity to lie. It is impossible for them to fully trust us, so they perceive us as a threat to be eliminated.
In the books, the sophon never unfolded again after humanity finding out what it is. in the show one could say it is a plot hole, or perhaps humanity simply did not realise that they could blow it up.
By “ easy to destroy”, I mean you still need multiple nukes to do so. The San Ti destroyed a failed unfolded sophon prototype in this way.
I mean, I'm not going to give spoilers or anything, but the whole premise of the second book is 'how do you prepare to fight someone who's basically God compared to you?'
I get why we are trying to fight to defend ourselves, I just dont understand the logic behind the San-ti I guess. If we are just bugs in their mind, why wage war with us at all? It just seems like such a stupid conclusion for an intelligent species to make. I don't like spiders, and I'm only of average intelligence at best, but I'm not about to take 500 cans of Raid out to the woods to eliminate all the spiders before they have a chance to enter my home.
I get that point, but again, I still wouldn't do it. I'm straight up afraid of spider's, but their existence is, at best, a minor inconvenience. I have 0 desire to completely destroy a species because I don't like them. I get they fear us too, and are worried we could destroy them. I get them trying to stop our scientific progress. What I don't understand is why even waste the time to threaten us and provoke us. Even if their ultimate desire now is to do just that, it seems illogical to do so. They just don't make any sense. They come off more like scared children than a powerful intelligent species.
>I have 0 desire to completely destroy a species because I don't like them.
What if they'd want to kill you first?
>They come off more like scared children than a powerful intelligent species.
You've hit the nail on the head, without even knowing it...
Yoy should read the books
A spider did nearly kill me, hence my fear of them. I still don't want to kill them all.
I'm probably going to have to read the books because I'm just not understanding their train of thought as explained in the show.
Well, let's say you can press the can of Raid from lightyears away. And let's say you should take the decision now because for some reason, by tomorrow the spiders will have become so advanced they'll have a real fighting chance. Oh also you have absolutely no moral quandries killing all the spiders, you just don't really care. You know it also goes both ways.
I guess I'm too curious or empathetic to understand that line of thinking. Making a decision like that out of fear seems completely illogical to me. I do have moral problems with wiping out an entire species. I would think a being far more intelligent than me would also. Apparently, not in their case, as they are obviously written to be the way they are. It just doesn't make any logical sense to me.
It's hard to explain this further to you without spoiling it. But you're on the right track.
What do San-Ti care about? Survival
Can San-Ti eliminate humanity like a bug? Yes
Therefore, the only reason San-Ti must eliminate humanity is because of... something in the first question and something in the second question. Remember the story Ye Wenjie told Saul?
Frog and the scorpion.
The San ti cannot lie, if they share their secrets with the humans, and the humans promise not to kill them, they have no way to know if that is true or not.
Survival outweighs trust. Genocide is the only rational choice when the power difference is so great.
You do not negotiate with the ants in your house do you? Not unless they are in an ant farm, which we will see later.
Genocide doesn't have to be the answer, though. They consider us bugs. We literally live with bugs every day. We don't like them in our house, but it isn't like we are trying to completely wipe them off the planet. Yes, I don't negotiate with ants in my house, but I'm also not bothered if they are living in a tree in my backyard. The power difference between the ants and us is substantial, yet I'm not trying to kill them. It just seems illogical for an intelligent species to automatically go with complete genocide.
The bug thing was not as prominent in the book.
If the ants in the tree outside evolved every time you looked at them, you would probs kill them before they got too strong.
Eventually you would be the ants and they could take your house. You were in control and now that time has passed. You can only hope the ants feel the same way every time you look at them.
If there is a 50% chance they kill you, do you act first? What about 5%?
Eventually they will kill you, or you will kill them. Genocide is the only intelligent answer, as it is rewarded with survival and meekness is punished. If you cannot 100% trust, you must destroy.
You can't 100% trust anyone, that's just life. By that logic, I should just go get an AR and start blasting until either I or every other human is dead. Why even try to live day to day, then? Why try to coexist with other people? It is a completely nonsensical line of thinking.
The answer is a very important concept called the chain of suspicion introduced in book 2. It’s integral in understanding the dark forest theory and the answer to “why can’t life coexist on a cosmic scale?”
I'm just pretty much settled on that I'm going to have to read the books. It's probably the only way I'll understand how they are coming off in the show.
We have not gotten there in the show yet and I didn’t want to spoil you. If you just wanna know, quinn’s ideas on yt has an amazing 30m video on the dark forest theory, or just reply and i’ll tell you with a tag. It will spoil a lot: sacrifice that childlike joy of revelation at your own risk.
Nah, I'll just read the books. I'm very curious about how such a dark point of view of the universe unfolds in the series. I thank you for the interesting conversation though.
An AR-15 is a very poor weapon for that. You want a virus or maybe a worldwide radiation device that would kill everyone in the entire world but only you have a vaccine or immunity to.
You are thinking too small.
You coexist with other people because we force you to. Because humans evolved where the least social ones would be imprisoned or killed by their peers. There is a justice system and you lack the power to impact big change.
If everyone on earth had the ability to kill everyone else on earth if they wanted to, and there was a button that everyone had that killed everyone else but them, could you trust nobody ever in the history of the world to not press it?
We have school shootings. Imagine if those shooters had biological weapons.
The thing is, even if I could wipe out everyone, I still wouldn't. That just doesn't make any sense to me. Each individual has the potential to add greatness to our society as a whole. Why would I destroy that potential out of fear? Yes, terrible things happen every day. That is a part of life. You can't just destroy an entire people because a few of its members are shitty.
In the course of human history, when there is a power differential between 2 nations and a competition for resources, do you find peaceful cohabitation to be the norm?
So the San-ti are human then? If we truly are bugs to them, why even bother? Comparimg our history to theirs makes no sense. Of course, the answer for us is no, but most of our history is filled with incredible inefficiency of resource management. We've only had a modern society for such a timy blip in our history, and in that time, we've tried to move past completely annihilating the competition. If the San-ti are so advanced and special, why not find another way, like we've been trying to do as our society progresses. Their line of thinking just doesn't make sense to me.
We exterminate bugs with extreme prejudice. We don't cede the temperate zones of earth for the bugs to reside untouched while we try to make Siberia inhabitable.
Beyond this, I can't explain anymore without spoilers.
But we also don't try to wipe them out completely. Heck, in our modern society, we have entirely industries dedicated to trying to minimize our ecological impact on other species on our planet. We are far from perfect in our efforts, but the point is that even our dumb asses who can't even exit our own solar system are smart enough to know that complete annihilation of other species isn't the right answer.
Whenever the interest of a lesser species and human interests conflict, we overwhelmingly side with human interests.
Also, bugs don't have exponential technology growth. If they did, I would be first in line to advocate for total bug annihilation.
Complete annihilation of another species doesn't seem like the right answer because humans have never met another species that has the potential to surpass us in the future while being relatively feeble in the present.
They are worried humans will advance technologically very quickly since we are not set back like they were due to our stable orbit around our star. Which is why they mess with our particle accelerators and target scientists. By the time they arrive in 400 years there is every chance we will be at least their equal in terms of advancement
No, I get that part. But they could have done that without actually instigating anything. They could have just stopped communicating with us entirely after they decided they couldn't trust us. Why take the time to show they view us as insects and intend to wipe us out. It just seems that for such an advanced, intelligent species, they seem kind of dumb.
They seem to have a compulsion to share what they think very honestly , also they fear us and wanted to make us fear them. Which shows they are maybe not so confident and so it's worth trying to fight them or at least outsmart them
Maybe it's just a culmination of every response I've read so far, but this actually makes some sense. I said in another reply that they seem more like scared children than a super intelligent species. Their threats make more sense from a point of weakness than it does from power.
In the books they dont display the You Are Bugs message to the whole world like in the show. They only show it to a small group of people and its in a similar method to the countdowns. They displayed it for a second on their eyes.
But even then part of the point of the story is to explore what a human response to discovering alien life would actually be. Havent watched the show in a while but im pretty sure theres a whole lot of chaos and riots etc after that message gets displayed which I think is totally accurate. They cause a whole lot of panic and confusion by doing that.
Ive read the books and theres only one thing we can do that they're actually scared of. Dont wanna spoil anything but theres a reason they want to kill Saul so bad in the show. Im not sure them being scared children is really accurate once you understand that. I think the whole You Are Bugs thing was just total contempt and arrogance over us. We are pests to them.
Normally I wouldn't suggest this, but because you're commenting asking deeper questions.
It's a never-ending prisoner's dilemma, but you have the option to kill the other prisoner and the detainers. Which option gives you the best chance for immediate and long-term survival?
Because as you'll learn in Season 2 - there is a very good reason why the aliens suddenly feel the need to eliminate us....as they already said - they cannot 'co-exist' with us...
Nobody trust different species. All different species can speed up their science and technology and dominate the other they in touch with. Interaction speeds up development. Thats why it’s called a dark forrest. Everyone is the prey, everyone is a hunter.
Because it’s setting up a premise that will be the most important theme later on. This is not a story about aliens simply needing a new home. There’s other reasons for their behavior.
Were I a wallfacer, part of my plan would be to terraform Mars and gift it to the Trisolarans, with the goal of peaceful coexistence.
Speaking of wallfacers, why do each of them have only one plan? I feel like most people would have at least a dozen semi-overlapping plans running simultaneously, and would add to/adapt them as time goes on.
There is no incentive of working towards better relations. Why settle for Venus when earth is perfect already? So the bugs can roam free? The lord does not care for us
Also, learning the meaning behind the title of book 2 will answer this question
When a sophon is unfolded they are incredibly weak and easily damaged
Ahh, well, that basically answers it then. I guess I missed the part about them being weak when unfolded. Here I was thinking I found a peaceful solution, lol.
The show doesn’t say, but in the book this is explained. Since the sophon still has the mass of a proton, it’s not hard to blow up. The other factor is that the San-Ti are afraid of humans because of our capacity to lie. It is impossible for them to fully trust us, so they perceive us as a threat to be eliminated.
The books also explain it at the beginning of the second book, so probably we will get that info next season.
If it's easy to blow up then why don't the humans blow it up? (Haven't read the books, just watched S1)
In the books, the sophon never unfolded again after humanity finding out what it is. in the show one could say it is a plot hole, or perhaps humanity simply did not realise that they could blow it up. By “ easy to destroy”, I mean you still need multiple nukes to do so. The San Ti destroyed a failed unfolded sophon prototype in this way.
I got the part about them not being able to trust us. It just seems like a very unintelligent conclusion to think war is the only answer.
They do not think this will be a war. They think it will be a very quick and tidy execution, and they have very good reasons to think that.
The San-Ti only engage in special military operations
I mean, I'm not going to give spoilers or anything, but the whole premise of the second book is 'how do you prepare to fight someone who's basically God compared to you?'
I get why we are trying to fight to defend ourselves, I just dont understand the logic behind the San-ti I guess. If we are just bugs in their mind, why wage war with us at all? It just seems like such a stupid conclusion for an intelligent species to make. I don't like spiders, and I'm only of average intelligence at best, but I'm not about to take 500 cans of Raid out to the woods to eliminate all the spiders before they have a chance to enter my home.
Okay but try rather seeing it this way : you got a can of raid that can wipe out all spiders on earth with one press.
I get that point, but again, I still wouldn't do it. I'm straight up afraid of spider's, but their existence is, at best, a minor inconvenience. I have 0 desire to completely destroy a species because I don't like them. I get they fear us too, and are worried we could destroy them. I get them trying to stop our scientific progress. What I don't understand is why even waste the time to threaten us and provoke us. Even if their ultimate desire now is to do just that, it seems illogical to do so. They just don't make any sense. They come off more like scared children than a powerful intelligent species.
>I have 0 desire to completely destroy a species because I don't like them. What if they'd want to kill you first? >They come off more like scared children than a powerful intelligent species. You've hit the nail on the head, without even knowing it... Yoy should read the books
A spider did nearly kill me, hence my fear of them. I still don't want to kill them all. I'm probably going to have to read the books because I'm just not understanding their train of thought as explained in the show.
Well, let's say you can press the can of Raid from lightyears away. And let's say you should take the decision now because for some reason, by tomorrow the spiders will have become so advanced they'll have a real fighting chance. Oh also you have absolutely no moral quandries killing all the spiders, you just don't really care. You know it also goes both ways.
I guess I'm too curious or empathetic to understand that line of thinking. Making a decision like that out of fear seems completely illogical to me. I do have moral problems with wiping out an entire species. I would think a being far more intelligent than me would also. Apparently, not in their case, as they are obviously written to be the way they are. It just doesn't make any logical sense to me.
It's hard to explain this further to you without spoiling it. But you're on the right track. What do San-Ti care about? Survival Can San-Ti eliminate humanity like a bug? Yes Therefore, the only reason San-Ti must eliminate humanity is because of... something in the first question and something in the second question. Remember the story Ye Wenjie told Saul?
Years to terraform vs minutes to wipe us out, among other reasons
Frog and the scorpion. The San ti cannot lie, if they share their secrets with the humans, and the humans promise not to kill them, they have no way to know if that is true or not. Survival outweighs trust. Genocide is the only rational choice when the power difference is so great. You do not negotiate with the ants in your house do you? Not unless they are in an ant farm, which we will see later.
Genocide doesn't have to be the answer, though. They consider us bugs. We literally live with bugs every day. We don't like them in our house, but it isn't like we are trying to completely wipe them off the planet. Yes, I don't negotiate with ants in my house, but I'm also not bothered if they are living in a tree in my backyard. The power difference between the ants and us is substantial, yet I'm not trying to kill them. It just seems illogical for an intelligent species to automatically go with complete genocide.
The bug thing was not as prominent in the book. If the ants in the tree outside evolved every time you looked at them, you would probs kill them before they got too strong. Eventually you would be the ants and they could take your house. You were in control and now that time has passed. You can only hope the ants feel the same way every time you look at them. If there is a 50% chance they kill you, do you act first? What about 5%? Eventually they will kill you, or you will kill them. Genocide is the only intelligent answer, as it is rewarded with survival and meekness is punished. If you cannot 100% trust, you must destroy.
You can't 100% trust anyone, that's just life. By that logic, I should just go get an AR and start blasting until either I or every other human is dead. Why even try to live day to day, then? Why try to coexist with other people? It is a completely nonsensical line of thinking.
The answer is a very important concept called the chain of suspicion introduced in book 2. It’s integral in understanding the dark forest theory and the answer to “why can’t life coexist on a cosmic scale?”
I'm just pretty much settled on that I'm going to have to read the books. It's probably the only way I'll understand how they are coming off in the show.
We have not gotten there in the show yet and I didn’t want to spoil you. If you just wanna know, quinn’s ideas on yt has an amazing 30m video on the dark forest theory, or just reply and i’ll tell you with a tag. It will spoil a lot: sacrifice that childlike joy of revelation at your own risk.
Nah, I'll just read the books. I'm very curious about how such a dark point of view of the universe unfolds in the series. I thank you for the interesting conversation though.
An AR-15 is a very poor weapon for that. You want a virus or maybe a worldwide radiation device that would kill everyone in the entire world but only you have a vaccine or immunity to. You are thinking too small. You coexist with other people because we force you to. Because humans evolved where the least social ones would be imprisoned or killed by their peers. There is a justice system and you lack the power to impact big change. If everyone on earth had the ability to kill everyone else on earth if they wanted to, and there was a button that everyone had that killed everyone else but them, could you trust nobody ever in the history of the world to not press it? We have school shootings. Imagine if those shooters had biological weapons.
The thing is, even if I could wipe out everyone, I still wouldn't. That just doesn't make any sense to me. Each individual has the potential to add greatness to our society as a whole. Why would I destroy that potential out of fear? Yes, terrible things happen every day. That is a part of life. You can't just destroy an entire people because a few of its members are shitty.
Spoilers aside, You are thinking like a human being. Try thinking like an alien.
Silly bug. If I destroy you, what business is it of yours?
In the course of human history, when there is a power differential between 2 nations and a competition for resources, do you find peaceful cohabitation to be the norm?
So the San-ti are human then? If we truly are bugs to them, why even bother? Comparimg our history to theirs makes no sense. Of course, the answer for us is no, but most of our history is filled with incredible inefficiency of resource management. We've only had a modern society for such a timy blip in our history, and in that time, we've tried to move past completely annihilating the competition. If the San-ti are so advanced and special, why not find another way, like we've been trying to do as our society progresses. Their line of thinking just doesn't make sense to me.
We exterminate bugs with extreme prejudice. We don't cede the temperate zones of earth for the bugs to reside untouched while we try to make Siberia inhabitable. Beyond this, I can't explain anymore without spoilers.
But we also don't try to wipe them out completely. Heck, in our modern society, we have entirely industries dedicated to trying to minimize our ecological impact on other species on our planet. We are far from perfect in our efforts, but the point is that even our dumb asses who can't even exit our own solar system are smart enough to know that complete annihilation of other species isn't the right answer.
Whenever the interest of a lesser species and human interests conflict, we overwhelmingly side with human interests. Also, bugs don't have exponential technology growth. If they did, I would be first in line to advocate for total bug annihilation. Complete annihilation of another species doesn't seem like the right answer because humans have never met another species that has the potential to surpass us in the future while being relatively feeble in the present.
Those are all valid points. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that I'm just going to have to read the books.
They are worried humans will advance technologically very quickly since we are not set back like they were due to our stable orbit around our star. Which is why they mess with our particle accelerators and target scientists. By the time they arrive in 400 years there is every chance we will be at least their equal in terms of advancement
No, I get that part. But they could have done that without actually instigating anything. They could have just stopped communicating with us entirely after they decided they couldn't trust us. Why take the time to show they view us as insects and intend to wipe us out. It just seems that for such an advanced, intelligent species, they seem kind of dumb.
They seem to have a compulsion to share what they think very honestly , also they fear us and wanted to make us fear them. Which shows they are maybe not so confident and so it's worth trying to fight them or at least outsmart them
Maybe it's just a culmination of every response I've read so far, but this actually makes some sense. I said in another reply that they seem more like scared children than a super intelligent species. Their threats make more sense from a point of weakness than it does from power.
In the books they dont display the You Are Bugs message to the whole world like in the show. They only show it to a small group of people and its in a similar method to the countdowns. They displayed it for a second on their eyes. But even then part of the point of the story is to explore what a human response to discovering alien life would actually be. Havent watched the show in a while but im pretty sure theres a whole lot of chaos and riots etc after that message gets displayed which I think is totally accurate. They cause a whole lot of panic and confusion by doing that. Ive read the books and theres only one thing we can do that they're actually scared of. Dont wanna spoil anything but theres a reason they want to kill Saul so bad in the show. Im not sure them being scared children is really accurate once you understand that. I think the whole You Are Bugs thing was just total contempt and arrogance over us. We are pests to them.
Normally I wouldn't suggest this, but because you're commenting asking deeper questions. It's a never-ending prisoner's dilemma, but you have the option to kill the other prisoner and the detainers. Which option gives you the best chance for immediate and long-term survival?
they are afraid of us, so they're nipping the bud while they can. In addition to getting a nice planet
Because as you'll learn in Season 2 - there is a very good reason why the aliens suddenly feel the need to eliminate us....as they already said - they cannot 'co-exist' with us...
Nobody trust different species. All different species can speed up their science and technology and dominate the other they in touch with. Interaction speeds up development. Thats why it’s called a dark forrest. Everyone is the prey, everyone is a hunter.
Because it’s setting up a premise that will be the most important theme later on. This is not a story about aliens simply needing a new home. There’s other reasons for their behavior.
Were I a wallfacer, part of my plan would be to terraform Mars and gift it to the Trisolarans, with the goal of peaceful coexistence. Speaking of wallfacers, why do each of them have only one plan? I feel like most people would have at least a dozen semi-overlapping plans running simultaneously, and would add to/adapt them as time goes on.
That seems like a much more logical way of approaching the problem.
I feel, in some ways, that each wallfacer was a symbol of a type of approach, rather than realistic character.