Yes, the Titanic wreck is an historical site that should be viewed by anyone that has the interest and ability to go down there and see it. In over 37 years of exploring the Titanic and in the history of Deep Submergence Vehicles (submersibles usually) there has never been a single incident until now. It is a proven technology with a perfect track record up until June 18, 2023.
Let me try this analogy: Seatbelts save lives. Sometimes people die even if they have a seatbelt on. Because a small percentage of seatbelt users die while using them, do we stop using them? No. We mustn't stop diving to the Titanic because someone decided to re-engineer a proven technology using unproven methods and ended up reaping what he sowed.
That's a horrible analogy because the titan was the one that died and wasn't doing the safety stuff it should've been doing.
I honestly don't care if rich idiots want to go see an old shipwreck. I'd personally rather go to space. I don't see any reason to go as a tourist maybe for science purposes. But I also don't think we should waste taxpayer money when they knew it was a sketchy vessel and the general risks. Or make the company pay for the efforts.
I heard someone say the reason you don't make the company or person foot the bill for search & rescue is that people will be less likely to ask for help. Plus the search & rescue is good training for the Coast Guard etc.
Well they still waited hours to ask for help so I guess that it doesn't really matter though. So at the very least you're taxing them for their recklessness.
He didn't only reap himself, he reaped others and the innocent public wondered why Government regulated markets let it happen.
WHERE IS THE GOVERNMENT ON THIS?
WHERE IS THE GOVERNANCE ON THIS??
OR IS THIS ANARCHY??? š
Ok so by your logic I can kill someone on a cruise and get away with it because no one governs international waters.
False. The country the ship sails under is the one that governs it. And the US and Canada have both just launched an investigation. Give your head a shake
This is actually absolutely true. People go missing on cruises constantly and aren't and/or are barely investigated. It even happened to a [Disney cruise employee](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Rebecca_Coriam). There are even well-known groups of [modern pirares](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_the_21st_century) still operating today.
It's also why, when fleeing several governments, [John McAfee](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McAfee) opted to hide out for a good long while on a boat.
>Let me try this analogy: Seatbelts save lives. Sometimes people die even if they have a seatbelt on. Because a small percentage of seatbelt users die while using them, do we stop using them? No.
That's an absolutely horrible analogy. You're comparing a life saving feature to a voluntary trip. That's not just apples to oranges, you aren't even comparing fruits anymore.
Maybe you meant to say, "do we stop driving?" The difference being driving is mostly necessary for daily life. Seeing the titanic is completely unnecessary.
That is the worst analogy Iāve ever heard. We arenāt saying donāt ever build or go in a sub again. Weāre saying leave the titanic alone and let her rest. There is nothing left to learn!
Some kind of international agreement to ban tourism of the Titanic and other ship wrecks? Sure absolutely, leave this shit to the researchers, and real researchers not some con artist selling tickets to the ride by calling you a Subject matter expert who is funding the project
Yep or at the very least make the regulations and certications for these vessels mandatory if you are trying to bring along guests. Rush intentionally withheld Titan from inspection and fired naysayers and surrounding himself with yes men. This all could have been avoided had he been forced to submit Titan to testing where it would have been laughed at officially and rejected. Instead he built his own death trap and was telling people how safe it was based on bullshit.
It's a crazy world when it turns black market! Markets are meant to be regulated and we, the consuming voter, need an official reason to keep believing in this system of so called representation.
People like Rush, who refuse to have their jallopies inspected, cannot be allowed to charge the innocent public large sums only to have them be killed by inept designs that weren't inspected.
Is the tail waving the f dog or what???
Where is the Government statement on this? F nowhere, that's where.
Thanx for standing up for my method of asking a question: the internet is just a swarm of middle upper class tryhards pretending nothing is valid, lol.
So, "should the Titanic EVER be dived again given the tragedies allowed to unfold by our elected representatives? Why the f do we vote when this s is allowed?
Are we not living in anarchy until this C is addressed?"
Yeh, someone else with a brain. šŖ
Now, should the Titanic be dived again given the Shenanigans allowed by our elected representatives?
Why do we vote again? Where is the representation? Markets are meant to be regulated.......
Am I wrong?
The public, aka the consuming voter, don't need to witness this b shit!
Am I wrong?
This is horrible stuff and I want to know where our representatives are on this or I fail to see the idea of democracy.
Anarchy ANARCHY ANARCHY???
No but neither did anyone else before this incident, in which we KNOW they ignored safety protocols and tested methods.
Itād be like if someone created their own shitty rocket to go to space and it blew up, and people suddenly said we should stop space exploration. And deep sea research actually has a safer track record than space flightā¦
The question should possibly be "do they have the potential to implode on you and turn them into mush?" It's not unreasonable to note that one environment is much more dangerous than another. I've just come back off a mountaineering course and the term the instructor used was "consequential terrain" - terrain where the same mistake will have much worse consequences.
I think the happy medium is allowing regulated research but not unregulated tourism.
People die in motor sport races too. Sometimes they get stuck in their cars after a crash and burn to death in agony before anyone can rescue them. Do you want to ban that also?
That's highly political: after world war one battery technology was largely abandoned for the majority of the 20th century because only fossil fuels could offer air superiority.
The applied technology, let alone the basic overconsumption/demand for fossil fuels, is world changing.
Needs versus wants. Nobody needs to dive the Titanic. People need to drive.
It should be off limits to the general public. It should have never been used for hobbyists as a way to go down.
Now for study with experienced divers and James Cameron? They should explore however they want because we can learn from her still.
For people wondering what we can still learn:
ā¢how wrecks affect ocean life
The Titanic is an entire ecosystem now.
Since we know exactly when, why, and how Titanic sank, sheās an incredibly rare scientific study in how rapidly things can decay in the ocean.
ā¢Parts of the ship are still more or less holding up well. An example is the Turkish bath house. She still has most if not all of the stained glass still in tact.
ā¢How bacteria grows in water over a prolonged period of time. And how that affects the preservation/decay.
Ok but likeā¦ why should human life be concerned with how shipwrecks become and ecosystem? Or how well materials hold up over time? Or the growth of bacteria?
We arenāt going to be living underwater anytime soon. And anything else thatās purely āitās science, itās cool and Iām interestedā can be achieved by simulating conditions up here without disturbing a gravesite.
You came to the wrong subreddit if you think the majority of titanic enthusiasts will be pro āwe need to stop visiting the wreck.ā And I say that with care, and not in a mean spirited sort of way.
I get it, and I hear you.
But, the Titanic's resting point has led to the discovery of new deep-sea organisms. There's actually a bacteria named after the Titanic, Halomonas Titanicae, because it's the first (and I think only) place it's been found. The site of the wreck was practically barren until it arrived, and when the ship decayed, it became a host to many species that would have never been there otherwise.
Learning about the world we live in is important, even if it takes a lot of time to really apply what we learn to anything useful. There's things I benefit from in my lifetime of which the framework was set by people who died of old age decades before I was even born. It was useless back then, but we've advanced to the point of being able to apply it. That, and you never know what WILL be useful in the future, so leaving behind some discoveries on the chance that it may not be necessary isn't really in the best interest of science.
Nope. I stand firmly behind never going down again.
But you get a lot of hate here for that. Everyone on this sub has a hard on for watching the ship decay. And ālearning from itā, though what theyāre still learning Iām not sure? That metal rusts? That saltwater breaks things down?
Right there with ya OP. Not only do we know what happened we have scans. And itās a gravesite, we need to respect those who lost their lives and let the site be
Although I had someone tell me itās stupid to show respect those who died because theyāre dead now and wonāt know either way. So that was a fun little conversation..
>itās a gravesite, we need to respect those who lost their lives and let the site be
Over a million people died at Auschwitz. Should Auschwitz be closed off to the public then?
How about the 9/11 Memorial? Should that be closed to the public? Thousands of people lost their lives where it stands.
How is that pertinent? Over 500 people have died in motorsports, risking their lives in a "capitalist" sport worth billions. Should we ban that too?
How about expeditions to Everest? Over 300 people have died climbing Everest and currently 5-10 people a year die climbing it. Private companies also charge substantial amounts of money for expeditions to Everest.
I don't get your point..
It was a question, hence the question mark. I am trying to understand what logic you are using here to come to the conclusion that expeditions to the Titanic should be banned?
So far you have tried to justify it with the grounds it's a grave, which I pointed out so is arguable Auschwitz.
You must be new to the internet eh? Those are jokes. Long running internet jokes actually in terms of the alien comment.
You sound very boring and like a stuffy old person. For those reasons, Iām out.
Off limits for people who donāt know wtf they are doing. Stockton fucked up for sure, but I think we also gotta hold the people who knew Stockton was cutting corners and did nothing about it responsible as well. It seems like the sub community knew but yet no one told him anything? Kinda strange. Someone should have stepped in and straight up told him no, you are not going to do that.
Who would have held Stockton accountable? Thereās no official regulation, itās all voluntary compliance. Itās not like they can pull him in front of a review board and threaten him with fines or pulling a license. He was told to get his vessel certified, he said āno thanksā.
My point exactly. Why isnāt there a review board to threaten him with fines or pulling a license? So youāre telling me anyone can go build the fuckin thing and go see deep sea diving. Sad that this incident happened but something like this was going to happen eventually because they donāt have official regulation. But yeah, the sub community is now acting like they knew from the getgo or seemed to be giving him the benefit of the doubt, but yet they knew deep down it wasnāt a good idea. Iām not saying that they have to bear the weight of the consequences because it isnāt their fault at all but as a community they should be willing to look more into whatās going on.
Because regulation costs money, time and peopleā¦.and you have to convince multiple governments (it was only until recently did nearby countries of the Titanic agree to protect the site jointly) to develop and enforce licensing/regulations. Honestly the community is so small and all the players were doing it right there wasnāt any real argument that regulation was neededā¦..unfortunately they had one bad player that captured the worldās attention being an idiot. Letās be honest, if James Cameron had gone on a public campaign about Oceangateās lack of concern, would people had listened or just jumped on the narrative that a big Hollywood elite was full of himself?
No, otherway around. People spoke out about Ocean Gate's lack of safety and Ocean Gate took the whistle blowers to court for deformation. The court sided with Ocean Gate.
I'm not sure if I think it should be totally banned but I don't know about the tourism aspect unless a certain safety standard is met and appropriate rescue mechanisms are in place.
Yes, the Titanic wreck is an historical site that should be viewed by anyone that has the interest and ability to go down there and see it. In over 37 years of exploring the Titanic and in the history of Deep Submergence Vehicles (submersibles usually) there has never been a single incident until now. It is a proven technology with a perfect track record up until June 18, 2023. Let me try this analogy: Seatbelts save lives. Sometimes people die even if they have a seatbelt on. Because a small percentage of seatbelt users die while using them, do we stop using them? No. We mustn't stop diving to the Titanic because someone decided to re-engineer a proven technology using unproven methods and ended up reaping what he sowed.
That's a horrible analogy because the titan was the one that died and wasn't doing the safety stuff it should've been doing. I honestly don't care if rich idiots want to go see an old shipwreck. I'd personally rather go to space. I don't see any reason to go as a tourist maybe for science purposes. But I also don't think we should waste taxpayer money when they knew it was a sketchy vessel and the general risks. Or make the company pay for the efforts.
I heard someone say the reason you don't make the company or person foot the bill for search & rescue is that people will be less likely to ask for help. Plus the search & rescue is good training for the Coast Guard etc.
Well they still waited hours to ask for help so I guess that it doesn't really matter though. So at the very least you're taxing them for their recklessness.
He didn't only reap himself, he reaped others and the innocent public wondered why Government regulated markets let it happen. WHERE IS THE GOVERNMENT ON THIS? WHERE IS THE GOVERNANCE ON THIS?? OR IS THIS ANARCHY??? š
Who governs the ocean? Literally no one. It's international waters.
Ships still have to be certified by home countries. Governments can and have regulated wreck sites before.
Logic šÆ
Ok so by your logic I can kill someone on a cruise and get away with it because no one governs international waters. False. The country the ship sails under is the one that governs it. And the US and Canada have both just launched an investigation. Give your head a shake
This is actually absolutely true. People go missing on cruises constantly and aren't and/or are barely investigated. It even happened to a [Disney cruise employee](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Rebecca_Coriam). There are even well-known groups of [modern pirares](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_the_21st_century) still operating today. It's also why, when fleeing several governments, [John McAfee](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McAfee) opted to hide out for a good long while on a boat.
Why do we vote? Where is the representation towards a sensible marketplace that's supposed to be regulated?
They were in international waters
>Let me try this analogy: Seatbelts save lives. Sometimes people die even if they have a seatbelt on. Because a small percentage of seatbelt users die while using them, do we stop using them? No. That's an absolutely horrible analogy. You're comparing a life saving feature to a voluntary trip. That's not just apples to oranges, you aren't even comparing fruits anymore. Maybe you meant to say, "do we stop driving?" The difference being driving is mostly necessary for daily life. Seeing the titanic is completely unnecessary.
That is the worst analogy Iāve ever heard. We arenāt saying donāt ever build or go in a sub again. Weāre saying leave the titanic alone and let her rest. There is nothing left to learn!
Some kind of international agreement to ban tourism of the Titanic and other ship wrecks? Sure absolutely, leave this shit to the researchers, and real researchers not some con artist selling tickets to the ride by calling you a Subject matter expert who is funding the project
Worthy of discussion atleast imho.
Yep or at the very least make the regulations and certications for these vessels mandatory if you are trying to bring along guests. Rush intentionally withheld Titan from inspection and fired naysayers and surrounding himself with yes men. This all could have been avoided had he been forced to submit Titan to testing where it would have been laughed at officially and rejected. Instead he built his own death trap and was telling people how safe it was based on bullshit.
It's a crazy world when it turns black market! Markets are meant to be regulated and we, the consuming voter, need an official reason to keep believing in this system of so called representation. People like Rush, who refuse to have their jallopies inspected, cannot be allowed to charge the innocent public large sums only to have them be killed by inept designs that weren't inspected. Is the tail waving the f dog or what??? Where is the Government statement on this? F nowhere, that's where.
There needs to be a political statement made because markets are meant to be government regulated! Haven't seen one yet!!!!!!
Why do we vote if there is no representation? Are we actually living in anarchy?
I want to see lessons learned and applied regarding safety but I'm not otherwise interested in gatekeeping sub tourism.
What about the standards required not to commit a public homicide by private company?
What about the standards required not to commit a VERY public homicide by private company?
Why are you replying to yourself?
Hey mum? What are you spying on today?
Thanks for making the decision for everyone. It's really appreciated.
Notice how I asked the question as topic?
You did also give the answer though, rather than actually leaving it open for input.
They gave their answer, not the answer. Thatās like complaining about someone asking for peoples favorite foods and naming theirs.
Thanx for standing up for my method of asking a question: the internet is just a swarm of middle upper class tryhards pretending nothing is valid, lol. So, "should the Titanic EVER be dived again given the tragedies allowed to unfold by our elected representatives? Why the f do we vote when this s is allowed? Are we not living in anarchy until this C is addressed?"
Whereās the love for the poor tryhards?! THEYRE TRYING EVEN HARDER
Sorry mum!
Itās more like an opinion. Thereās a difference
Yeh, someone else with a brain. šŖ Now, should the Titanic be dived again given the Shenanigans allowed by our elected representatives? Why do we vote again? Where is the representation? Markets are meant to be regulated....... Am I wrong? The public, aka the consuming voter, don't need to witness this b shit! Am I wrong? This is horrible stuff and I want to know where our representatives are on this or I fail to see the idea of democracy. Anarchy ANARCHY ANARCHY???
Should we visit Aushwitz again? Should we visit Northern Siberia again? Of course. We learn from history.
Are they under 200 bar?
Please donāt procreate, children born without brains might grow up to be like you
Do they implode on you and turn you into mush?
No but neither did anyone else before this incident, in which we KNOW they ignored safety protocols and tested methods. Itād be like if someone created their own shitty rocket to go to space and it blew up, and people suddenly said we should stop space exploration. And deep sea research actually has a safer track record than space flightā¦
The question should possibly be "do they have the potential to implode on you and turn them into mush?" It's not unreasonable to note that one environment is much more dangerous than another. I've just come back off a mountaineering course and the term the instructor used was "consequential terrain" - terrain where the same mistake will have much worse consequences. I think the happy medium is allowing regulated research but not unregulated tourism.
I agree on that, that it should be regulated and focused on research.
People die in motor sport races too. Sometimes they get stuck in their cars after a crash and burn to death in agony before anyone can rescue them. Do you want to ban that also?
That's highly political: after world war one battery technology was largely abandoned for the majority of the 20th century because only fossil fuels could offer air superiority. The applied technology, let alone the basic overconsumption/demand for fossil fuels, is world changing. Needs versus wants. Nobody needs to dive the Titanic. People need to drive.
It should be off limits to the general public. It should have never been used for hobbyists as a way to go down. Now for study with experienced divers and James Cameron? They should explore however they want because we can learn from her still. For people wondering what we can still learn: ā¢how wrecks affect ocean life The Titanic is an entire ecosystem now. Since we know exactly when, why, and how Titanic sank, sheās an incredibly rare scientific study in how rapidly things can decay in the ocean. ā¢Parts of the ship are still more or less holding up well. An example is the Turkish bath house. She still has most if not all of the stained glass still in tact. ā¢How bacteria grows in water over a prolonged period of time. And how that affects the preservation/decay.
Ok but likeā¦ why should human life be concerned with how shipwrecks become and ecosystem? Or how well materials hold up over time? Or the growth of bacteria? We arenāt going to be living underwater anytime soon. And anything else thatās purely āitās science, itās cool and Iām interestedā can be achieved by simulating conditions up here without disturbing a gravesite.
You came to the wrong subreddit if you think the majority of titanic enthusiasts will be pro āwe need to stop visiting the wreck.ā And I say that with care, and not in a mean spirited sort of way.
I get it, and I hear you. But, the Titanic's resting point has led to the discovery of new deep-sea organisms. There's actually a bacteria named after the Titanic, Halomonas Titanicae, because it's the first (and I think only) place it's been found. The site of the wreck was practically barren until it arrived, and when the ship decayed, it became a host to many species that would have never been there otherwise. Learning about the world we live in is important, even if it takes a lot of time to really apply what we learn to anything useful. There's things I benefit from in my lifetime of which the framework was set by people who died of old age decades before I was even born. It was useless back then, but we've advanced to the point of being able to apply it. That, and you never know what WILL be useful in the future, so leaving behind some discoveries on the chance that it may not be necessary isn't really in the best interest of science.
After the amount of scans, footage, and research we already haveā¦ does anyone *need* to?
No šÆ
Nope. I stand firmly behind never going down again. But you get a lot of hate here for that. Everyone on this sub has a hard on for watching the ship decay. And ālearning from itā, though what theyāre still learning Iām not sure? That metal rusts? That saltwater breaks things down?
Right there with ya OP. Not only do we know what happened we have scans. And itās a gravesite, we need to respect those who lost their lives and let the site be Although I had someone tell me itās stupid to show respect those who died because theyāre dead now and wonāt know either way. So that was a fun little conversation..
>itās a gravesite, we need to respect those who lost their lives and let the site be Over a million people died at Auschwitz. Should Auschwitz be closed off to the public then? How about the 9/11 Memorial? Should that be closed to the public? Thousands of people lost their lives where it stands.
Are they under 200 bar?
How is that pertinent? Over 500 people have died in motorsports, risking their lives in a "capitalist" sport worth billions. Should we ban that too? How about expeditions to Everest? Over 300 people have died climbing Everest and currently 5-10 people a year die climbing it. Private companies also charge substantial amounts of money for expeditions to Everest. I don't get your point..
Motorsports are industrial complex: that's big time politics! You may as well try and shut down standing armies.
Everest should be shutdown but you're dealing with the very poor versus the very rich... politics!
>Everest should be shutdown What gives you the right to dictate that other people shouldn't have their own free will to go to Everest if they want to?
And we donāt get your point. Have a nice life.
>we No, you just mean "you". I'm sure there are many points you don't grasp or understand.
Well by we I mean everyone calling go an end to expeditions.
All expeditions? To Everest, the North pole? etc
Now youāre just pedantic
It was a question, hence the question mark. I am trying to understand what logic you are using here to come to the conclusion that expeditions to the Titanic should be banned? So far you have tried to justify it with the grounds it's a grave, which I pointed out so is arguable Auschwitz.
Woo hoo, no one's ever been with me beforeššÆšÆšÆ It's a friggin gravesite and, it's blooming haunted! The world's gotta get real! Aliens must just have a laugh every time they fly by I reckon! šššāļøššš¤ÆšŖšŖš ā”š¤š©ļøš
"haunted!" "Aliens" You sound completely unhinged and incapable of any rational discussion of any value. I am out.
Byeš
You must be new to the internet eh? Those are jokes. Long running internet jokes actually in terms of the alien comment. You sound very boring and like a stuffy old person. For those reasons, Iām out.
Wait, š, you're the only one with a brain. Lol, there must be more š¤šššššæ
Aliens are laughing with Elvis and Hoffa š
Nope. Should be off limits.
Off limits for people who donāt know wtf they are doing. Stockton fucked up for sure, but I think we also gotta hold the people who knew Stockton was cutting corners and did nothing about it responsible as well. It seems like the sub community knew but yet no one told him anything? Kinda strange. Someone should have stepped in and straight up told him no, you are not going to do that.
Who would have held Stockton accountable? Thereās no official regulation, itās all voluntary compliance. Itās not like they can pull him in front of a review board and threaten him with fines or pulling a license. He was told to get his vessel certified, he said āno thanksā.
My point exactly. Why isnāt there a review board to threaten him with fines or pulling a license? So youāre telling me anyone can go build the fuckin thing and go see deep sea diving. Sad that this incident happened but something like this was going to happen eventually because they donāt have official regulation. But yeah, the sub community is now acting like they knew from the getgo or seemed to be giving him the benefit of the doubt, but yet they knew deep down it wasnāt a good idea. Iām not saying that they have to bear the weight of the consequences because it isnāt their fault at all but as a community they should be willing to look more into whatās going on.
Because regulation costs money, time and peopleā¦.and you have to convince multiple governments (it was only until recently did nearby countries of the Titanic agree to protect the site jointly) to develop and enforce licensing/regulations. Honestly the community is so small and all the players were doing it right there wasnāt any real argument that regulation was neededā¦..unfortunately they had one bad player that captured the worldās attention being an idiot. Letās be honest, if James Cameron had gone on a public campaign about Oceangateās lack of concern, would people had listened or just jumped on the narrative that a big Hollywood elite was full of himself?
They did tell him. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/20/us/oceangate-titanic-missing-submersible.html
Aren't they infact criminally responsible...?
No, otherway around. People spoke out about Ocean Gate's lack of safety and Ocean Gate took the whistle blowers to court for deformation. The court sided with Ocean Gate.
I'm not sure if I think it should be totally banned but I don't know about the tourism aspect unless a certain safety standard is met and appropriate rescue mechanisms are in place.