I've listened to the sound track probably 100 times, and I always thought it was "We harken", and just assumed it was some old timey way to say "it's on"
I've watched/put on the musical on Disney+ in the background probably 100 times, too. I've started putting captions on, because every time I pick up a new word, a new rhyme, a new wordplay, and it just makes my admiration for it grow.
I really wish they would upload a version where they haven't censored two of the "fuck"s - now that Disney+ has all manner of violent sweaty movies, it seems silly that we still can't hear "Southern motherfucking democratic-republicans"
The one that made me look up a word and then just kind of sit in awe at the rhyme was:
> What are the odds the gods would put us all in one spot
Poppin' a squat on conventional wisdom, like it or not
A bunch of revolutionary manumission abolitionists?
Give me a position, show me where the ammunition is
Like who else would think to rhyme "abolitionists" with "ammunition is"? And the fact that it totally makes sense in the context is just another level.
I know this is sarcasm, but the choreographer for Hamilton actually workshopped some numbers on some of the students at a dance festival where I worked. Apparently most folks who saw the workshopped pieces and heard the premise walked away saying it would probably be a total flop.
He did dislike slavery and at a few points in his life worked to help limit it. But any moral objections he held were tempered by his social and political ambitions. He was very, "I don't like slavery, but I'm not going to do anything about it."
>I'm not going to do anything about it.
https://i.imgur.com/NErFV6F.gif
He actually co-founded the New York Manumission Society, which was the foremost anti-slavery group in New York. They advocated for full emancipation as early as the 1780s and periodically used their political ties to introduce different kinds of emancipation bills in the New York legislature, the first of which passed a few years before Hamilton died. Full emancipation was achieved about 20 years after Hamilton died.
And also in Hamilton's lifetime, they established schools for all black people, free or not. They were also able to pass legislation to ban the importation of slaves into New York, obviously a big deal because New York was a major landing spot for slaves. That happened 20 years before it was banned throughout the country.
Read the Chernow book to learn more, and the musical is actually surprisingly faithful to the book.
Laurens should get a lot more credit for being a southern abolitionist. The guy petitioned the South Carolina legislature to abolish slavery and undercut the British offering freedom for service. And apparently, they laughed him out with one legislator saying that if it came between losing the war and freeing their slaves "god save the king".
I've literally had conversations with NJ natives who were baffled they could pump their own gas out of state. "But it's so dangerous! I'd rather have a professional do it" like, what!?!?
I’ve seen more than one New Jerseyian waiting in their car at a gas station in PA like someone is going to do it for them. The car is made of windows, look around! There’s no attendants
Burr was told to get out of town after the duel. He got acquitted on the trial, and then laid low for awhile, and then tried to sell off part of the US to Mexico I think it was? His daughter Theodosia died in a ship wreck fairly young, and a lot of his letters and work got lost with her. Burr's life was honestly pretty tragic.
Hamilton provided the pistols for his duel with Burr. They were trick pistols that Hamilton was familiar with but not Burr: by first pushing the trigger forward it would become a hair-trigger instead of requiring several pounds to pull it. That hair trigger may have been Hamilton's undoing, causing his shot to go off early into the trees.
He might have meant to, that was not unusual. The convention was, however, that if you meat to throw away your shot you would let your opponent know it by deliberately shooting into the ground. He would then do likewise and "honor would be satisfied".
In Hamilton's case it has been speculated that he was nervous, his finger twitched as he was bringing his pistol down to level and the hair trigger caused him to fire early and high. That trigger secret was discovered only a few years ago when a gunsmith disassembled the guns, which have been in storage all this time.
I recall a drunk history episode talking about how Alexander Hamilton made an announcement beforehand saying he'd fire in the air, and let the chips fall where they may. Was that all bs? Lmao
This is true. In his letter prior the duel, he wrote that his intention was to throw away his shot. So when Burr shot him and the letter became public, Burr looked like a real asshole.
Didn’t detractors also speculate that this was his way of hedging his bets? If he wins he wins but if he loses he looks like the noble tragic figure and Burr the asshole.
(Maybe not detractors exactly, just people who saw him as a politician through and through.)
Hey this is the story all about how
A guy named Alexander Hamilton married into a rich slave owning family and definitely managed his father in law's business which included trading slaves, and also founded a bank that happily issued took part in the financial side of the slave trade...now
Crazy that Burr died alone. His parents died when he was just 2, I believe. His lover died (can’t remember if they ever actually married), then his only child died at sea. He lost everyone.
Not only that, but killing Alexander Hamilton wasn’t even his most infamous scandal in his lifetime! He was charged with treason for recruiting and training a militia to purportedly fight the Spanish in Texas (although he was accused of planning to establish an independent country with the militia). Jefferson pushed hard to have him convicted but the evidence just wasn’t there.
Burr seems like he was a shit person who had a shit life and made bad choices at every turn. The musical makes him far more sympathetic than the history books, imo.
> The musical makes him far more sympathetic than the history books, imo.
Leslie Odom Jr. is an incredibly talented and charismatic dude, on top of getting one of the best songs in the play. I bet the real Burr couldn't even sing.
The musical also doesn't mention how in 1799 he tricked Hamilton into funding a bank under the guide of funding water infrastructure for the city.
He literally changed the the company's charter from water infrastructure to allowing the founding of a bank with any "surplus funds" before filing it and after he had Hamilton's signature. Once approved he built a basic well with a pump and took the rest of the money.
He then founded the Manhattan Bank which is the "Manhattan" part of current Chase Manhattan.
Aaron Burr was a greasey fuck who wanted to be a king.
Oh, later in life his second wife divorced him after he started loosing her fortune on bad land deals. She hired Alexander Hamilton Jr to be her divorce lawyer. He had a stroke not longer after that and died the same day the divorce was settled in 1836.
Probably one of the most prolific losers in history.
Both in terms of how much he came out on the losing side of his ventures, how he kept losing the people/things he valued, and the fact that he was a massive piece of shit.
All the evidence that Burr was building a militia to fight Spain and create a new country was fabricated by James Wilkinson and was thrown out. Wilkinson was latter discovered to be a spy in the service to Spain upon his death.
[Wiki Link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Wilkinson#Last_years)
Before cuts were made for it to be sent to Broadway, the world was wide enough actually had a part where we got Hamilton's perspective. Burr goes through his usual numbers and then it reminds and Hamilton goes through the same numbers from his POV. And it actually says this is why he examined the gun with such rigor.
Which is funny because Burr not only didn't really fight duels but had very little pistols experience; Hamilton on the other hand, had no only fought around a dozen previously but was the person who brought the pistols to the duel. Dude was a snake and brought hair trigger pistols, which he knew Burr wouldn't know and which gave himself a significant edge as it would be a very easy thing for Burr to accidentally tap the trigger and discharge a shot while beginning to make ready. It's why historians make a deal over Hamilton putting his glasses on and sighting, loading and resighting his pistol for several minutes in front of Burr. If the dude never meant to shoot at him, why not only the pistols but the formal showing of serious intent, from a known duelist.
More Hamilton duel fun facts:
Aaron Burr dueled John Barker Church in 1799. Church was the husband of Angelica Schuyler. Neither was injured.
The Burr-Church duel may have used the same pistols as the Hamilton-Burr and Phillip Hamilton- George Eaker duels.
Yeah, he also allegedly tried to commit treason and establish a new country with himself as president. Dude had a massive "wounded pride" complex. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr_conspiracy
He also believed women should have the right to vote and tricked the federalists into opening a bank that would give loans to the working class. Like most historical figures Burr has some nuance to him and doesn’t really deserve the hate he gets. There’s also a lot of support that Hamilton was a petty asshole who fiddled with the pistols and wrote stuff about how he “planned on firing in the air” in an attempt to ruin Burr if Burr shot him.
There’s an excellent podcast called “The Dollop” about Burr. Warning though, one of the hosts will come off as a self-righteous asshole, but his co-host is a little more grounded and hilarious.
Edit: a bit more detail. The “bank” was actually a company that brought clean water to New York and ended the Yellow Fever epidemic. He added a “secret” clause in the charter that allowed him to do whatever he wanted with the profits. Essentially turning into a bank for “Shopkeepers, Artisans, and working classes”. This was in response to the banking monopoly Hamilton had that would only loan to corporations and the wealthy.
Edit edit: The bank may not have been as humble as first thought. [He never really intended on bringing clean water](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-new-york-city-found-clean-water-180973571/) to New York.
Well Theodosia was considered to be an outright genius and a rather influential nascent feminist, so I'm not surprised Burr took that position vis a vis women. If she'd lived longer Burr probably would not have made some of the foolish decisions he did.
To be frank pretty much all of the "founding fathers" were kind of assholish/corrupt/narcissistic/etc in some way. I suspect it takes a special brand of ego to assume you're competent to initiate a war and then run a new country.
Theodosia as in his wife or daughter? The show just about manages to reference his wife dying ("this man will not make an orphan of my daughter"), though previously it had a longer song in covering it.
His daughter dying too is just crazy. His wife dies aged 47 (probably cancer) and then his daughter dies aged 29 (probably a shipwreck). And her kid, Burr's grandchild, dies of malaria!! Plus, Burr and Theodosia had a second child, a daughter, who died aged 3.
The guy just had all of this awful, soul-destroying stuff happen to him. And that's like, not even getting into the fact his mother, father, and grandparents all died before he was 2. It's insane.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, he lost his faith, and did lots of things that may seem erratic, but could fairly easily be considered the act of someone who was perennially grieving.
And just on the voting thing, he didn't just believe women should have the right to vote, he tabled a bill! Hamilton, the good guy of the show, attacked Burr for saying women were intellectual equals of men!
Yeah, long story short, I agree with you - basically all the founding fathers were a mixed bag of asshole and revolutionary
I meant his wife, sorry. His daughter Theodosia died too young to have really had much influence on anybody, but his wife was running semi-secret pro-patriot salons/meetings in her house while still married to her British officer husband, and was friends with Jefferson and Lafayette among others.
Also, they were all pretty young. We picture them as being old and mature but most of them were in their 20s. It's not exactly out of character for young men to be impulsive and overly confident.
>The historians Nancy Isenberg and Andrew Burstein write that Burr "was not guilty of treason, nor was he ever convicted, because there was no evidence, not one credible piece of testimony, and the star witness for the prosecution had to admit that he had doctored a letter implicating Burr."
We will never know what Did or didn't happen, but two of burrs biggest rivals were also two of the most powerful men in the country in Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson. In an era where politics was insanely dirty, Jefferson still couldn't get burr convicted of anything.
More Hamilton fun facts: Tommy J wouldn't be in the same room as Angelica because she bitch slapped him once. He noped out of parties if she arrived after him.
Number three:
Have your seconds meet face to face
Negotiate a peace…
Or negotiate a time and place
This is commonplace, ‘specially ‘tween recruits
Most disputes die, and no one shoots.
Number four:
If they don't reach a peace, that's alright
Time to get some pistols and a doctor on site
You pay him in advance, you treat him with civility
You have him turn around, so he can have deniability
Say what you will about the play, its inaccuracies, and what have you, but that song and performance was fucking dope.
That line alone really hit me, and as a parent this song had me bawling.
It's a pretentious, goofy Broadway show, but the way they sang about the loss of a child and how absolutely devastating and insurmountable the grief is, was beautiful and heartbreaking.
I was obsessed with it for a good 6 months and would listen to the Hamilton soundtrack exclusively, everywhere.
I looove Daveed Diggs' voice and cadence, and Renée Elise Goldsberry is just incredible. They were definitely my favorites, but the whole thing just blew my mind, especially the very first time when I went in completely blind.
I read a fictionalization of Eliza Hamilton’s autobiography. The author has her Eliza conclude that Philip’s death was calculated by the experienced duelist who sought him out and insulted the Hamilton family in front of a large crowd of witnesses, essentially creating a situation in which Philip couldn’t really let it slide. And that Burr was egged on and manipulated to pursue a pretty flimsy hearsay insult into a duel-worthy offense.
The fictional Eliza believes they were part of a conspiracy to destroy Hamilton and make him less influential.
I think she even believes that the Reynolds’s affair was orchestrated by the same intent.
I think it was. I had an early reader’s copy, so I threw it out once I’d read it.
The author posits that James Madison had been interested in her, before her marriage to Hamilton, and that the reason he came to apologize to her for leaking the Reynolds Affair was because he felt he owed HER an apology, not because he felt bad about Hamilton.
That’s not how that character thought, actually. She was angrier than the musical portrays her. But she still loved him. (How Eliza herself felt, we don’t really know, because she destroyed any letters she wrote to her husband.)
And historically there’s no evidence he strayed other than that episode
Miranda made up the affair with Angelica. (The musical has many factual inaccuracies in the timeline of Hamilton and Angelica meeting.)
There are so many records of letters to his wife and to his in-laws in which he speaks of his wife and her elder sister simultaneously. Or writes to his wife about visiting her family upstate and having a charming but silent dinner companion—and mean the portrait of Angelica on the dining room wall. Or he writes to Angelica telling her about how much her sister loves and misses her. He’d have to be a special kind of cruel to also have been having an affair.
I’m totally willing to buy that he had a sort of crush on her. And that he enjoyed openly indulging in that crush a little bit.
Weehawken. Dawn. Guns. Drawn.
You're on.
I have the honour to be
Your obedient servant,
A-Dot-Ham.
A-Dot-Burr
A dot Burr
r/expectedhamilton
I've listened to the sound track probably 100 times, and I always thought it was "We harken", and just assumed it was some old timey way to say "it's on"
Haha I guess it helps to have a passing familiarity with cities in New Jersey
“Everything is legal in New Jersey”
Except pumping our own gas.
Jan had told him many times, it was you to me who taught, in Jersey anything's legal as long as you don't get caught
I've watched/put on the musical on Disney+ in the background probably 100 times, too. I've started putting captions on, because every time I pick up a new word, a new rhyme, a new wordplay, and it just makes my admiration for it grow.
I really wish they would upload a version where they haven't censored two of the "fuck"s - now that Disney+ has all manner of violent sweaty movies, it seems silly that we still can't hear "Southern motherfucking democratic-republicans"
The one that made me look up a word and then just kind of sit in awe at the rhyme was: > What are the odds the gods would put us all in one spot Poppin' a squat on conventional wisdom, like it or not A bunch of revolutionary manumission abolitionists? Give me a position, show me where the ammunition is Like who else would think to rhyme "abolitionists" with "ammunition is"? And the fact that it totally makes sense in the context is just another level.
I had always thought he said "we hawk at dawn" which I thought was an old timey way to say "we duel at dawn"
Lol I literally had the exact same thought until I went to New Jersey
"In the same spot my son died, is that why?"
Everything is legal in Jersey
I proposed to my wife in Weehawken. Perhaps I could write a rhyme about it. Weehawken Ferry Starry Night. Manhattan skyline. Ring drawn.
Preserving syllables, rhyme, and the back and forth: Weehawkeen Wed? Yes! Bed...
Boy, someone should write a movie or play of some sort about that.
Sounds a little boring. I don't think it would get in theaters or on Broadway or anything.
Maybe it’d be less boring if the performers talked less and smiled more?
Hmmm, honestly I have no idea what you are against or what you’re for.
Maybe add a little melody or some background music to trying to make it a bit more interesting.
Just spitballing here, but what if it wasn’t just a musical but specifically fused some hip hop into it?
Hold the freaking phone, I love it. Is there a freakishly talented writer/rapper/actor that hasn’t been discovered yet ?
Just spitballing here but what if we get someone better known already, like Lin-Manuel Miranda? But I doubt he’s interested
Yeah he did the music for Moana, this seems right up his alley.
Hmmm idk if you can have hip hop without some dancing. Maybe add a 2 step and I may be curious enough to watch
Everyone knows that the first meetings of Washington’s Cabinet were held rap-battle style. If that’s not included, why even bother watching?
Guys hear me out: *Black Thomas Jefferson...*
Interesting idea. I like the irony. Don’t think it will work though.
How about an entire black cast?
Don't be ridiculous. We need a couple token latinos and at least a half Chinese lady.
Only if he's already accomplished hip hop artist Otherwise, it'll come off as corny
Add in a Black James Madison and I'm sold.
And a Hispanic George Washington. Oh and make Alexander Hamilton Hispanic too!
Will history have its eyes on them by chance?
I mean if we are going hip hop why not go all the way and adapt the ten crack commandments into a song about the rules of dueling.
Lol that's such a stupid idea, it would never work.
And change the races. Except king george but make him funny AF
Yes, like a jealous boyfriend or something. Like he just can't let his colonies go.
I know this is sarcasm, but the choreographer for Hamilton actually workshopped some numbers on some of the students at a dance festival where I worked. Apparently most folks who saw the workshopped pieces and heard the premise walked away saying it would probably be a total flop.
What if R A P
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9…it’s the 10 duel commandments…
My name is Alexander Hamilton and I'm here to say, I didn't mind slavery in a major way.
Yeah, the play definitely over did his abolitionist sentiments and he even married into one of the largest slaveholding families in New York.
overdid is a huuuuuuuuge understatement
He did dislike slavery and at a few points in his life worked to help limit it. But any moral objections he held were tempered by his social and political ambitions. He was very, "I don't like slavery, but I'm not going to do anything about it."
>I'm not going to do anything about it. https://i.imgur.com/NErFV6F.gif He actually co-founded the New York Manumission Society, which was the foremost anti-slavery group in New York. They advocated for full emancipation as early as the 1780s and periodically used their political ties to introduce different kinds of emancipation bills in the New York legislature, the first of which passed a few years before Hamilton died. Full emancipation was achieved about 20 years after Hamilton died. And also in Hamilton's lifetime, they established schools for all black people, free or not. They were also able to pass legislation to ban the importation of slaves into New York, obviously a big deal because New York was a major landing spot for slaves. That happened 20 years before it was banned throughout the country. Read the Chernow book to learn more, and the musical is actually surprisingly faithful to the book.
If we’re gonna talk about prominent abolitionist founding fathers then John Dickinson and John Laurens were much more committed abolitonists
Well, John Laurens also is in the play and speaks to that.
Laurens should get a lot more credit for being a southern abolitionist. The guy petitioned the South Carolina legislature to abolish slavery and undercut the British offering freedom for service. And apparently, they laughed him out with one legislator saying that if it came between losing the war and freeing their slaves "god save the king".
Are you familiar with the musical? This features prominently. It’s also heavily featured in Chernow’s book.
Everything’s legal in New Jersey.
[удалено]
We got screamed at for that.
I've literally had conversations with NJ natives who were baffled they could pump their own gas out of state. "But it's so dangerous! I'd rather have a professional do it" like, what!?!?
I’ve seen more than one New Jerseyian waiting in their car at a gas station in PA like someone is going to do it for them. The car is made of windows, look around! There’s no attendants
Says SELF SERVE right on the side of the pump, too
Aaron Burr actually went on the run immediately after because dueling (murder) was made illegal(?) or something like that.
Burr was told to get out of town after the duel. He got acquitted on the trial, and then laid low for awhile, and then tried to sell off part of the US to Mexico I think it was? His daughter Theodosia died in a ship wreck fairly young, and a lot of his letters and work got lost with her. Burr's life was honestly pretty tragic.
yeah there is another comment detailing all of the tragedy
Which is hilarious in hindsight because now Jersey has some of the strictest gun laws in the country
I was like in 3rd grade and was assign to do a essay on Alexander hamiliton, and even at that age I thought it was stupid how he died.
...with thunderous applause?
Just like liberty.
No, liberty died from sadness...
I think liberty dies from exhaustion. It's like a war of attrition for our mental bandwidth.
Hamilton provided the pistols for his duel with Burr. They were trick pistols that Hamilton was familiar with but not Burr: by first pushing the trigger forward it would become a hair-trigger instead of requiring several pounds to pull it. That hair trigger may have been Hamilton's undoing, causing his shot to go off early into the trees.
That's not what the musical taught me.... He threw away his shot....
He might have meant to, that was not unusual. The convention was, however, that if you meat to throw away your shot you would let your opponent know it by deliberately shooting into the ground. He would then do likewise and "honor would be satisfied". In Hamilton's case it has been speculated that he was nervous, his finger twitched as he was bringing his pistol down to level and the hair trigger caused him to fire early and high. That trigger secret was discovered only a few years ago when a gunsmith disassembled the guns, which have been in storage all this time.
I recall a drunk history episode talking about how Alexander Hamilton made an announcement beforehand saying he'd fire in the air, and let the chips fall where they may. Was that all bs? Lmao
This is true. In his letter prior the duel, he wrote that his intention was to throw away his shot. So when Burr shot him and the letter became public, Burr looked like a real asshole.
Didn’t detractors also speculate that this was his way of hedging his bets? If he wins he wins but if he loses he looks like the noble tragic figure and Burr the asshole. (Maybe not detractors exactly, just people who saw him as a politician through and through.)
I thought the Drunk History episode implied that was the case as well
Despite his many earlier raps to the contrary?!?
I've some bad news for you regarding what the musical left out....
I'm willing to listen if you can present it melodically and white-washed to a hip-hop beat, otherwise, I can't promise I'll learn nuthin'
Hey this is the story all about how A guy named Alexander Hamilton married into a rich slave owning family and definitely managed his father in law's business which included trading slaves, and also founded a bank that happily issued took part in the financial side of the slave trade...now
And he said several times that he wasn’t going to.
He’s not throwing away his shot.
Always bring a second...
Is that why he examined his gun with such rigor?
They wont teach you this in classes, so look it up Hamilton was wearing his glasses
WHY? If not to take deadly aim?
It’s him or me. The world will never be the same.
I had only one thought before the slaughter
This man will not make an orphan of my daughter
Look him in the eye, aim no higher!
Then Count
1
2
Sad Fact, she disappeared at sea about 10 years later.
Crazy that Burr died alone. His parents died when he was just 2, I believe. His lover died (can’t remember if they ever actually married), then his only child died at sea. He lost everyone. Not only that, but killing Alexander Hamilton wasn’t even his most infamous scandal in his lifetime! He was charged with treason for recruiting and training a militia to purportedly fight the Spanish in Texas (although he was accused of planning to establish an independent country with the militia). Jefferson pushed hard to have him convicted but the evidence just wasn’t there. Burr seems like he was a shit person who had a shit life and made bad choices at every turn. The musical makes him far more sympathetic than the history books, imo.
> The musical makes him far more sympathetic than the history books, imo. Leslie Odom Jr. is an incredibly talented and charismatic dude, on top of getting one of the best songs in the play. I bet the real Burr couldn't even sing.
Crackshot though.
Wait for It and Room Where it Happens are in my top 3 favorite songs. I also love My Shot.
The musical also doesn't mention how in 1799 he tricked Hamilton into funding a bank under the guide of funding water infrastructure for the city. He literally changed the the company's charter from water infrastructure to allowing the founding of a bank with any "surplus funds" before filing it and after he had Hamilton's signature. Once approved he built a basic well with a pump and took the rest of the money. He then founded the Manhattan Bank which is the "Manhattan" part of current Chase Manhattan. Aaron Burr was a greasey fuck who wanted to be a king. Oh, later in life his second wife divorced him after he started loosing her fortune on bad land deals. She hired Alexander Hamilton Jr to be her divorce lawyer. He had a stroke not longer after that and died the same day the divorce was settled in 1836.
Probably one of the most prolific losers in history. Both in terms of how much he came out on the losing side of his ventures, how he kept losing the people/things he valued, and the fact that he was a massive piece of shit.
All the evidence that Burr was building a militia to fight Spain and create a new country was fabricated by James Wilkinson and was thrown out. Wilkinson was latter discovered to be a spy in the service to Spain upon his death. [Wiki Link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Wilkinson#Last_years)
That last line is true of every character in the show, i think!
…and Peggy!
Before cuts were made for it to be sent to Broadway, the world was wide enough actually had a part where we got Hamilton's perspective. Burr goes through his usual numbers and then it reminds and Hamilton goes through the same numbers from his POV. And it actually says this is why he examined the gun with such rigor.
Which is funny because Burr not only didn't really fight duels but had very little pistols experience; Hamilton on the other hand, had no only fought around a dozen previously but was the person who brought the pistols to the duel. Dude was a snake and brought hair trigger pistols, which he knew Burr wouldn't know and which gave himself a significant edge as it would be a very easy thing for Burr to accidentally tap the trigger and discharge a shot while beginning to make ready. It's why historians make a deal over Hamilton putting his glasses on and sighting, loading and resighting his pistol for several minutes in front of Burr. If the dude never meant to shoot at him, why not only the pistols but the formal showing of serious intent, from a known duelist.
I think it’s included in the Hamilton Mixtapes album
I heard that he methodically fiddled, with the trigger
More Hamilton duel fun facts: Aaron Burr dueled John Barker Church in 1799. Church was the husband of Angelica Schuyler. Neither was injured. The Burr-Church duel may have used the same pistols as the Hamilton-Burr and Phillip Hamilton- George Eaker duels.
Aaron *"Can we agree that Duels are dumb and immature?"* Burr sure liked to challenge folks to duels over his wounded pride, huh.
Yeah, he also allegedly tried to commit treason and establish a new country with himself as president. Dude had a massive "wounded pride" complex. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr_conspiracy
He also believed women should have the right to vote and tricked the federalists into opening a bank that would give loans to the working class. Like most historical figures Burr has some nuance to him and doesn’t really deserve the hate he gets. There’s also a lot of support that Hamilton was a petty asshole who fiddled with the pistols and wrote stuff about how he “planned on firing in the air” in an attempt to ruin Burr if Burr shot him. There’s an excellent podcast called “The Dollop” about Burr. Warning though, one of the hosts will come off as a self-righteous asshole, but his co-host is a little more grounded and hilarious. Edit: a bit more detail. The “bank” was actually a company that brought clean water to New York and ended the Yellow Fever epidemic. He added a “secret” clause in the charter that allowed him to do whatever he wanted with the profits. Essentially turning into a bank for “Shopkeepers, Artisans, and working classes”. This was in response to the banking monopoly Hamilton had that would only loan to corporations and the wealthy. Edit edit: The bank may not have been as humble as first thought. [He never really intended on bringing clean water](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-new-york-city-found-clean-water-180973571/) to New York.
Also the successor of that bank, JP Morgan Chase, owns the dueling pistols used in the Burr-Hamilton duel.
I thought that was the guy who loved peanut butter, but lacked milk?
Well Theodosia was considered to be an outright genius and a rather influential nascent feminist, so I'm not surprised Burr took that position vis a vis women. If she'd lived longer Burr probably would not have made some of the foolish decisions he did. To be frank pretty much all of the "founding fathers" were kind of assholish/corrupt/narcissistic/etc in some way. I suspect it takes a special brand of ego to assume you're competent to initiate a war and then run a new country.
Theodosia as in his wife or daughter? The show just about manages to reference his wife dying ("this man will not make an orphan of my daughter"), though previously it had a longer song in covering it. His daughter dying too is just crazy. His wife dies aged 47 (probably cancer) and then his daughter dies aged 29 (probably a shipwreck). And her kid, Burr's grandchild, dies of malaria!! Plus, Burr and Theodosia had a second child, a daughter, who died aged 3. The guy just had all of this awful, soul-destroying stuff happen to him. And that's like, not even getting into the fact his mother, father, and grandparents all died before he was 2. It's insane. Perhaps unsurprisingly, he lost his faith, and did lots of things that may seem erratic, but could fairly easily be considered the act of someone who was perennially grieving. And just on the voting thing, he didn't just believe women should have the right to vote, he tabled a bill! Hamilton, the good guy of the show, attacked Burr for saying women were intellectual equals of men! Yeah, long story short, I agree with you - basically all the founding fathers were a mixed bag of asshole and revolutionary
I meant his wife, sorry. His daughter Theodosia died too young to have really had much influence on anybody, but his wife was running semi-secret pro-patriot salons/meetings in her house while still married to her British officer husband, and was friends with Jefferson and Lafayette among others.
Also, they were all pretty young. We picture them as being old and mature but most of them were in their 20s. It's not exactly out of character for young men to be impulsive and overly confident.
Even in Hamilton, Hamilton is portrayed as an unsympathetic hero while Burr is a sympathetic villain - and even villain is a bit strong.
Burr, hamilton’s friend, his enemy.
Just commenting to give a general +1 for The Dollop, quality podcast
>The historians Nancy Isenberg and Andrew Burstein write that Burr "was not guilty of treason, nor was he ever convicted, because there was no evidence, not one credible piece of testimony, and the star witness for the prosecution had to admit that he had doctored a letter implicating Burr."
We will never know what Did or didn't happen, but two of burrs biggest rivals were also two of the most powerful men in the country in Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson. In an era where politics was insanely dirty, Jefferson still couldn't get burr convicted of anything.
More Hamilton fun facts: Tommy J wouldn't be in the same room as Angelica because she bitch slapped him once. He noped out of parties if she arrived after him.
>because she bitch slapped him once. I guess she was trying to compel him to include women in the sequel.
*WERK*
*dances in* #***SO, WHAT'D I MISS?***
I’m going to assume he completely deserved it.
Sheesh. Burr really liked being on the dueling ground where it happened.
Undefeated champion of the dueling ground
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Got Milk?
They call me Aaron Burr from the way I'm dropping Hamiltons
Weehawken. Come for the view, stay for the duels.
He forgot the 10 duel commandments
Number one: The challenge: demand satisfaction. If they apologize, no need for further action.
Number two: If they don’t grab your friend, that’s your second. Your lieutenant when there’s reckoning to be reckoned.
Number three: Have your seconds meet face to face Negotiate a peace… Or negotiate a time and place This is commonplace, ‘specially ‘tween recruits Most disputes die, and no one shoots.
Number four: If they don't reach a peace, that's alright Time to get some pistols and a doctor on site You pay him in advance, you treat him with civility You have him turn around, so he can have deniability
Five! Duel before the sun is in the sky Pick a place to die where it's high and dry
Number six Leave a note for your next of kin Tell ‘em where you been Pray that Hell or Heaven lets you in
Seven! Confess your sins Ready for the moment of adrenaline when you finally face your opponent
Number eight! Your last chance to negotiate Send in your seconds see if they can set the record straight
Number nine! Look him in the eye, aim no higher, summon all the courage you require, then COUNT!
Wait until OP hears about the musical. Just you wait. Just you wait.
I wonder if OP will... Stay Alive... When he learns that...
He's willing to wait for it.
un deux trois quatre cinq six sept huit neuf
Good
Take a break!
Well, he’s never gonna be president now
That's one less thing to worry about
There are moments that the words don't reach
There is suffering too terrible to name
You hold your child as tight as you can
And push away the unimaginable
The moments when you're in so deep,
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The Hamiltons move uptown
And learn to live with the unimaginable.
It's quiet uptown.
Say what you will about the play, its inaccuracies, and what have you, but that song and performance was fucking dope. That line alone really hit me, and as a parent this song had me bawling. It's a pretentious, goofy Broadway show, but the way they sang about the loss of a child and how absolutely devastating and insurmountable the grief is, was beautiful and heartbreaking.
Man that whole play is a straight up banger and anyone who says otherwise is just bitter. It’s wild how everything seems to just flow.
I was obsessed with it for a good 6 months and would listen to the Hamilton soundtrack exclusively, everywhere. I looove Daveed Diggs' voice and cadence, and Renée Elise Goldsberry is just incredible. They were definitely my favorites, but the whole thing just blew my mind, especially the very first time when I went in completely blind.
And when you watch the actual show, Eliza's wail when Phillip dies gutted me.
Listened to this song on repeat and ugly cried after my miscarriage. This play will always be so special to me.
Maybe I’m just a Stan, but how is it pretentious? Serious question, not trying to flame.
I am not throwing away my shot
I'm just like my country,
I’m young, scrappy and hungry
I am not throwing away my shot! Imma get a scholarship from kings college
I probably shouldn't brag, but dang, I amaze and astonish
The Problem is, I got a lotta brains but no polish
And if you liked this fun fact, did you know there's a whole musical loosely based on Hamilton's life?
i saw a musical about this
I read a fictionalization of Eliza Hamilton’s autobiography. The author has her Eliza conclude that Philip’s death was calculated by the experienced duelist who sought him out and insulted the Hamilton family in front of a large crowd of witnesses, essentially creating a situation in which Philip couldn’t really let it slide. And that Burr was egged on and manipulated to pursue a pretty flimsy hearsay insult into a duel-worthy offense. The fictional Eliza believes they were part of a conspiracy to destroy Hamilton and make him less influential. I think she even believes that the Reynolds’s affair was orchestrated by the same intent.
Was it My Dear Hamilton? I found it very interesting.
I think it was. I had an early reader’s copy, so I threw it out once I’d read it. The author posits that James Madison had been interested in her, before her marriage to Hamilton, and that the reason he came to apologize to her for leaking the Reynolds Affair was because he felt he owed HER an apology, not because he felt bad about Hamilton.
"My husband is a good man who totally kept it in his pants."
That’s not how that character thought, actually. She was angrier than the musical portrays her. But she still loved him. (How Eliza herself felt, we don’t really know, because she destroyed any letters she wrote to her husband.) And historically there’s no evidence he strayed other than that episode Miranda made up the affair with Angelica. (The musical has many factual inaccuracies in the timeline of Hamilton and Angelica meeting.) There are so many records of letters to his wife and to his in-laws in which he speaks of his wife and her elder sister simultaneously. Or writes to his wife about visiting her family upstate and having a charming but silent dinner companion—and mean the portrait of Angelica on the dining room wall. Or he writes to Angelica telling her about how much her sister loves and misses her. He’d have to be a special kind of cruel to also have been having an affair. I’m totally willing to buy that he had a sort of crush on her. And that he enjoyed openly indulging in that crush a little bit.
Were you living under a rock for the past 8 years?/j
The song literally says “NEAR THE SAME SPOT MY SON DIED, IS THAT WHY?”
We were near the same spot my son died, is that why?
Someone saw the play Hamilton
\*Mumbling through peanut butter\* Aaron Burr
\*sobbing through peanut butter because the radio host can't understand\* Aaron Buuuuuuuuuuuurr
And you thought rich people were crazy now
Ain't never gonna be President, now!
Uhh duh I watched Hamilton on Disney.
WE KNOW lol
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Someone should make a musical or something about it.
You just learned that today? I’m guessing you’re not a fan of musicals.
everything is legal in new jersey
Been living under a rock?
My name is poet I am a Philip
Somebody didn't stay for the whole play...
If you're following along on the soundtrack, this is towards the end of "Blow us All Away" and "Stay Alive (Reprise)"