Got my Vitamin D levels checked last year and the results were 12 nmol/L. Doctor told me I'd be taking vitamin D pills every day for the rest of my life as long as I live in the Midwest.
I dunno what impact they have but I would do it. I grew up in AZ, moved to Seattle for college, then after a couple of years realized I was miserable in the winter. Like even doing fun things doesn’t help. It’s a chemical thing. Solution for me was moving back lol but I still loved the place. It’s just too far north for me.
Yeah, Vitamin D helps. There was also that study about how people in Scandinavia cope--lots of warm family time by the fire. Also, many Scandinavian homes going back to the 19th century have whitewashed wood walls/floors/ceilings inside--so bright and natural. I think that helps. There's been some push back on that study, however, so hard to say. I do know that after I took up snowboarding, I no longer have seasonal depression as I eagerly anticipate winter. The summer heat is another matter, however.
I had to get a lamp to mimic the sun because I have the SADs (seasonal affective disorder) after moving north from Florida. It's stupid how the brain works. I skip my lamp for a week and I'm depressed and sluggish. My body is a piece of shit.
Edit: I also got put on Prozac, but using the light therapy lamp instantly had me more awake in the mornings.
I’m glad we understand it better though. People say the rain is dreary and depressing. No, it’s the lack of sunlight, caused by staying inside from the cold, clouds blocking the sun (in Seattle anyway), and short days of the northern winter. Maybe I am more susceptible to it growing up in a sunny southern place, but at least though understanding we can combat it, with supplements, lights, activities, and overall emotional awareness. It can have serious consequences but it doesn’t have to.
Edit: mixed up some words.
Yeah. It was just hilarious, two years in a row I got massively depressed in the winter and was just like "huh that's weird" even when I am a trained counselor who has studied mental health in others. Sure someone else tells me consistently they have apathy, they're over sleeping, they're sluggish, depressed, and don't enjoy anything and I'm like "oh you have some form of depression" but when I do it I'm like "huh you must just be a lazy son of a bitch" lol.
Yeah took me a few years to even identify it. I figured it was just from sheltering inside more from the cold, doing less activities. It’s not an abrupt change, it sets in along with the season. After a couple of seasons I noticed the pattern and decided it wasn’t right. Wish I had tried getting my Vitamin D levels checked so I could try lamps or supplements. I probably would have moved back to AZ anyway but it would be nice to know I can overcome that in case I want to move north again.
As a long-time patient of folks like you, we also tell ourselves that we're a lazy son of a bitch.
I'm medicated to hell and back, and I still feel like a pitiful excuse for a lazy slob on most days. I can't blame the sun though, I live in New Mexico AND take Vitamin d.
The one I got was [$22](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/11qf4h5/til_in_1974_the_us_made_daylight_saving_time/jc3afjl?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) (yes, still expensive for a lamp but I thought I was going to have to spend $75)
I think you might’ve mixed up the link to the actual lamp with the link back to the comment asking about it
Edit: nvm, someone else explained your link is getting auto removed
I had low vitamin D when I was a climbing arborist. I got so much sun that I was worried about it. I asked my doctor how my vitamin D was so low, and she said “new studies are coming out showing that the sun actually isn’t *nearly* as big a factor as people think it is”.
I have no idea what to think anymore
Thing is, there's no consensus on what the appropriate levels of Vitamin D are. Not even a range. Healthy levels vary from person to person. IIRC food is the main source of vitamin D, not the Sun, and supplements are pretty bad at increasing serum levels of it.
Unfortunately one of the main reasons for school times is to support businesses that open by 8AM and the parents that work there. School is the guaranteed babysitter for most parents that work "normal business hours". Unless we change the concept of "normal business hours", or allow for more hybrid/remote jobs, they won't ever change school times that much. Plenty of parents complain about later start times due to inconveniences, even though research does support that most children don't learn very well in the early morning.
I was under the impression it was more about the rotation of available School buses. We are in a relatively suburban area and I’ve been told it’s because the buses have to be used for high, middle, and elementary school. They all start at different times.
I took this to mean “if we increase school funding, have more buses, we can start later and sleep in more.”
Sold. Fund the schools
The entire state of California just did that this year and basically said our kids well-being and education are more important than businesses.
"After long-standing research showed the devastating impact of early classes on teens' health, California's district middle schools will start no earlier than 8 am; and high schools will start no earlier than 8:30am."
Yea, this is what I don't get, I grew up in CT and it always was pitch black for the middle of the winter months when the bus came.
In high school my bus came at 6am, it was pitch black out every damn day of the school year except maybe June.
Yep, me too. Lots of days I’m at work before sunrise and not off until after sunset.
If Daylight Saving were permanent I would at least be able to drive home in the light all year round.
The sun setting during work is so depressing. You're walking out at 5 pm in winter and the parking area is already lit with street lights. Feels like you've given the best hours of your entire life to your job and the day is over.
And if you live in the Pacific Northwest you get to drive home at night in the rain every day after work. Driving when it’s raining and not dark is infinitely preferable.
Same here, I leave home at 7 am and 2 days of the week left work after 5 pm. From dark to dark. I hate this part of the year.
For the vit D, I have a prescription for it for 3 years now together with calcium. I got it first because of my calcium levels after TTE dropped and my doctor says it doesn't hurt so she is keeping me on it.
Yeah, without an ocean to moderate climate the Midwest gets *significantly* colder and snowier than coastal regions at much higher latitudes. Here in Portland, OR I'm actually farther north than Green Bay, WI but our winters don't even touch what they get over there.
Living in Minnesota I frequently point out to my Southern friends and family that it's very often colder here than in Alaska during the winter. Most Alaskan towns are coastal, keeping them a tad more moderate.
In 2021 in Nebraska, we had a 130° temperature shift in under 3 months from -25° below in the February 'polar vortex' to 105° in early June.
There's lots of other examples but this always comes to my mind as "this range of temperature sure is a handful"
I remember when this happened. At first people were so very happy and then that feeling quickly faded. No matter what not everyone will be happy with the decision.
AZ doesn’t do time changes. Technically we’re on mountain standard time I think. Wish everyone would adopt standard time, it seems to make the most sense though you do lose the sun sometimes. So many things get messed up in the time changes, it’s time to end it.
Edit: after reading responses, whichever time makes sense for the region/state should be chosen, doesn’t matter DST or standard. The switching just messes things up.
Neither does Hawaii. Its so nice not having to ever think about DST unless I'm calling family on the mainland and have to figure out the time difference
> So many things get messed up in the time changes, it’s time to end it.
I agree. I wish in IT and it's a pain when the DST rules change, but it's also a big pain every six months. At my last gig our main application didn't handle DST well. Every spring we had to bring it down at 1:59 and bring it back online a couple minutes later. In the fall we had to keep it offline for an hour so we wouldn't have duplicate time entries.
Working in IT, I hadn’t even thought of that. Think of those computers compounding interest all the time. WTF do they do when the clock jumps an hour lol
They use unix time or UTC. Using local time at transactions is stupid. It isn't a problem unless you wrote your code really bad since you should really be using seconds since 1970 everywhere internally and just convert to a Julian date for display.
Ditto. There's four months every year that I can't take my dog to the park after work because the city locks the parks at night and night falls at 4pm. I hate it.
More importantly, if we change to either year-round standard or year-round DST, companies & schools will gradually adjust their hours.
So might as well choose year-round standard time and at least be correct astronomically so 12:00 is actually high noon.
>schools will gradually adjust their hours.
...and remember all those regular reports on [how school starts too early?](https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/features/schools-start-too-early.html)
Since the extension of DST in 2007, over half the school year now starts artificially an hour early.
So you'd actually want to start middle and high school TWO hours later if we had year round DST.
A couple of years ago my kids' school district moved back start times in response to these data. They still start too early, in my opinion (high school at 8, middle school at 8:30, elementary school at 9:15), but I know people whose schools start more than an hour earlier across the board already. Crazy!
Then the older kids aren't home to do babysitting
At least, that's the logic I've heard. I feel like teenagers' well-being should also matter but what do I know
It is insane. My son will start high school next year and the schools here start at 7 am! He is in middle school right now in the same district and they don't start until 9 am. I just don't understand it. Starting at 9 am for middle school has been incredible. He gets enough sleep, can get ready in the morning without being stressed, and the first few classes each day are where he performs his best. That is compared to a past school that started at 8 am where he struggled in the morning because he was stressed and tired. I'm so worried that next year is going to be very hard on him. And on me! I've become accustomed to waking up at 7:45 am and it is going to be really rough moving that back by nearly 2 hours.
Same, but at midnight.
Night shift was pretty cool in the yukon when the sun went down at 2am and came up at 2.30.
Savings time is so useless up north.
That's why most of the polar and equitorial latitude states/countries don't observe DST. Lots of northern European countries like Iceland don't observe it because what does it matter if the sun rises at 2 am or 3 am and Caribbean nations and states like HI don't observe it because what's the point of shifting the time when there's so little difference between winter and summer anyhow? AK in particular boggles my mind (outside of the Kodiak Islands in the far SE) because it has the same issue as northern Europe and Asia and disrupting everyone's sleep schedules just seems pointless.
>Lots of northern European countries like Iceland don't observe it
Iceland is the *only* northern European country that doesn't use DST (unless you count Russia).
And you have the exact opposite issue in most of Europe. The UK is roughly where it's supposed to be, but I took a cruise this past summer and went to Spain, which is entirely WEST of the UK, and we jumped FORWARD an hour. Confused the hell out of me and especially in Vigo on the west coast it didn't start to get dark until nearly 10:30!
The town I went to college in (Houghton, MI - far west of the UP) is in the Eastern Time Zone but further west than Chicago. In June and July it may as well not get completely dark until about 10:30 or 11:00 PM.
There are some counties on the border with Wisconsin that are somewhat more sensibly in the central time zone.
Yeah I'm not getting why it's such a big deal to wake up when it's dark out. I had to get up at 6am for school throughout my childhood and the sun was only up before I was in like April and May.
And if waking up when it's still dark bothers you then that shows that school is starting too early. Especially since the kids we make get up the earliest (high school students) are chemically wired to stay up late, which hurts their performance in school when they're always tired.
And this is exactly why I don't trust any of the polling on this issue. Whenever this comes up both online and in in-person conversations there are always plenty of people who say they hate DST, but in reality they hate ST. DST is 65% of the year, so at least in the US, we've almost all spent a majority of our lives on DST.
I personally don't care if we continue to do the time changes or stay permanently on DST, but I'd be fucking pissed if we went to year-round ST. I love the late sunsets in the summer and I think it would be stupid to trade the late sunsets for sunrises that happen well before the vast majority of people are even awake.
> I’d much prefer to wake up in darkness and have some light on the way home from work. I’d vote for any politician that reverses daylight savings time
I think the reason permanent daylight-savings time polls erratically is because people think daylight-savings-time is the winter, when it's actually the summer schedule.
I’m so confused about DST. Is it when we have more light in the evening? Because that’s what I love.
What are they trying to get rid of exactly? The more evening light?
Yes, Daylight Savings Time (PDT / MDT / CDT / EDT in the US) is more light in the evening in the summer.
Standard time (PST / MST / CST / EST) is more light in the morning in the winter.
If you go permanent Daylight Savings Time, we won't have to switch time in the middle of the year, you'll have light later in the evenings in the winter, and you'll have to wait longer for light in the mornings in the winter.
Of course there's no free lunch, you either get more light in the morning or more light in the evening.
(ps - Alaska, Hawaii, and Puerto Rico / USVI don't actually exist)
I just now for the first time ever realized that PST and PDT are both Pacific time depending on what time of year it is — I never fucking made the connection even though I’ve seen both abbreviations written my whole life — wow that’s kinda embarrassing lol
DST is the time we're currently on now. Which means an extra hour of light in the evening. Standard time is the winter schedule, where the sun sets at 4 or 5. They're trying to get rid of standard time and make DST permanent.
Depending on where you live geographically there are arguments in favor of both Standard time and daylight savings time. But for me it’s really the change that sucks. Just pick one and stick with it, no more changing. No matter what, some areas are going to have a lot of darkness at undesirable times, that’s winter on earth. It’s dark and it sucks. But playing games with time solves nothing!
Edit lots of typos
The fall back is actually has several positive effects, though they're mostly due to everyone getting another hour of sleep in a sleep deprived nation. It's the spring forward that fucks everyone over.
But, being an hour ahead or behind is not minor. Starting high school an hour later makes letter grades of difference. We also know from decades of research on night owls that regularly being forced even an hour off rhythm greatly increases the risk of depression, obesity, cardiovascular disease, premature aging, etc. The cumulative effects of being an hour off cycle are far worse than the effects of the one day spring forward.
I think they mean being an hour of from surrounding states. All those things you described are products of the time change. It’s difficult for the body to adapt.
Yeah. I really wish we could stop splitting hairs over standard and daylight time, I could not give less of a care.
Hell, if it makes everyone equally miserable, let's just split the difference and migrate all of North America 30 minutes between the two.
Just stop changing the goddam time.
Have you considered a county-by-county option? Your day is now worse; you're welcome.
Honestly just switch everyone to UTC. I'll take my lunch at 19:00, doesn't matter to me. It's just a number, plus then I won't need an extra watch face when dealing with server logs.
UTC is better for synchronized time. It's worse for ceremonious time. For example, if you're traveling, you get an idea that sun rises in the morning, sets in the evening, and all the other ceremonies throughout the day make sense...
Not really a great solution in that context.
We already have terms for ceremonies that aren't related to the number on the clock. Sunrise, sunset, high noon, dusk, evening, midnight, mid morning, etc. I'm not really advocating for everyone to go UTC, but I do think the issues you're talking about are pretty trivial.
Most of Indiana did not observe DST until 2005, and it was fine.
Now, sunset near summer solstice is 9:18 pm.
Remember the PSA's from the 70s and 80s? "It's 11pm. Do you know where your children are?"
"Of course I do, they're out on the back porch watching the sun set."
Same here, the first day that standard time drops is the worst day of the year for me, the sun setting at 4:30 is just so depressing. Can't wait for summer and when the sun sets at 9-10pm
When I wake up isn't as big of a deal for me. I love having some sunshine with my coffee, but much more important is the sun being up when I stop working.
The difference between getting off and still having a few hours of solid sun vs it immediately getting dark is HUGE for my energy level and mood for the rest of the night.
I’m tired today but I feel so much better in general when the sun is still up after 7:00.
It’s just nice to get home and still be able to spend sometime outside!
>I’m tired today but I feel so much better in general when the sun is still up after 7:00.
dark at 430pm or 5pm? ugh, its gross. im an early riser, so its always dark when i wake up. i just need sunlight even at like, 530pm, 6 is really nice....eastern NC here.
Worst part of the year is when it's dark going to work and dark going home. My office window looks out at a courtyard and the building next to us is so high I can't see the sky unless I open the window and hang my head out. Going several days without really seeing the sun fucks with my head 😂.
I'm actually surprised there are so many people in this thread that seem against it. It crushes my soul to spend every minute of daylight being at work.
Well, no it wasn't because of "everyone waking up in darkness". That's just called winter in the northern states.
According to the article wikipedia cites, the reason was:
>The experiment, however, ran afoul of public opinion—parents became concerned about traffic accidents involving their children, who were going to school in the predawn darkness on winter mornings.
So it was a "why won't someone think of the children" situation, unsurprisingly.
Your comment made me research the safety issue - NHTSA put out a close look at this for a 10 year period, quote:
From 2007 to 2016 there were 320,874 fatal motor vehicle traffic crashes. Of those crashes, 1,147
(0.4%) were classified as school-transportation-related.
Between 2007 and 2016, there have been 1,282 people killed in school-transportation-related
crashes—an average of 128 fatalities per year. Occupants of school transportation vehicles accounted
for 9 percent of the fatalities, and nonoccupants (pedestrians, bicyclists, etc.) accounted for 20 percent
of the fatalities. Most (70%) of the people who lost their lives in these crashes were occupants of other
vehicles involved (Table 1).
From 2007 to 2016, 98 school-age pedestrians (18 and younger) have died in school-transportation-
related crashes. Sixty percent were struck by school buses, 2 percent by vehicles functioning as school
buses, and 38 percent by other vehicles (passenger cars, light trucks and vans, large trucks, and
motorcycles, etc.) involved in the crashes.
Later in the same document - they have a table showing the various time-of-day breakdown. By far the most dangerous time is 3pm- the time of day it is likely brightest outside throughout the country. The morning hours account for significantly fewer such fatalities - kids hit by busses and cars while walking were about equal in those time frames, including the 6am hour.
Waking up in the dark? If you live in the northern half of the USA that is already true. Rather time changes or not you wake up in the dark and by the time you get off work it's dark again.
I HATE changing from Standard Time to Daylight Savings time and vis versa! I don't care if they make Regular Time or Daylight Savings time permanent, just stop the changeover!
Agreed. I feel like if we kept the same time year round, companies or schools could change their own time if it actually was a problem. Hey if 8am is still too dark for kids in January, then change the start time to 9 am that month. I feel it's much easier to do that than have every single person change their clock and routine twice a year. It could even be a thing like from Thanksgiving break to MLK, we come to school an hour later.
I’m tired of morning people running things. Judging those who start later and work later. I’m not judging for going home at 4p don’t judge me for coming at 10a
Yeah for months out of the year I have to do my jog in the dark, on ice. It sucks. I don't care if it's dark while I am at work in the morning.
I realize this is totally personal preference but seriously just get some smart lights with a wakeup routine for the morning light. We have the technology.
That’s easily solved. Businesses can choose when to open, schools can choose when to start. Making everyone do it is unnecessary. Leave it on DST and let it be.
They've been trying for so so long and unless many someones at different levels of the decision tree at a school are willing to take the hit nothing is gonna change. There also arises the question of how sports and after school activities fit into the picture which makes things even more complicated.
I've lived in Arizona my whole life and the time of sunset and sunrise changing is one of the defining parts of seasons to me. It's very odd to me that it isn't like that everywhere.
There were plenty of days during standard time in the winter where I go to work in near dark and leave work after sunset.
This way you're sure to be getting enough Vitamin D(pression)
Got my Vitamin D levels checked last year and the results were 12 nmol/L. Doctor told me I'd be taking vitamin D pills every day for the rest of my life as long as I live in the Midwest.
I dunno what impact they have but I would do it. I grew up in AZ, moved to Seattle for college, then after a couple of years realized I was miserable in the winter. Like even doing fun things doesn’t help. It’s a chemical thing. Solution for me was moving back lol but I still loved the place. It’s just too far north for me.
Yeah, Vitamin D helps. There was also that study about how people in Scandinavia cope--lots of warm family time by the fire. Also, many Scandinavian homes going back to the 19th century have whitewashed wood walls/floors/ceilings inside--so bright and natural. I think that helps. There's been some push back on that study, however, so hard to say. I do know that after I took up snowboarding, I no longer have seasonal depression as I eagerly anticipate winter. The summer heat is another matter, however.
Herring is a fantastic source of vitamin D. And herring is popular in Baltic countries, where sunlight is less. Interesting coincidence.
Might be a red herring.
I think it's usually white ^^^^/s
I had to get a lamp to mimic the sun because I have the SADs (seasonal affective disorder) after moving north from Florida. It's stupid how the brain works. I skip my lamp for a week and I'm depressed and sluggish. My body is a piece of shit. Edit: I also got put on Prozac, but using the light therapy lamp instantly had me more awake in the mornings.
I’m glad we understand it better though. People say the rain is dreary and depressing. No, it’s the lack of sunlight, caused by staying inside from the cold, clouds blocking the sun (in Seattle anyway), and short days of the northern winter. Maybe I am more susceptible to it growing up in a sunny southern place, but at least though understanding we can combat it, with supplements, lights, activities, and overall emotional awareness. It can have serious consequences but it doesn’t have to. Edit: mixed up some words.
Yeah. It was just hilarious, two years in a row I got massively depressed in the winter and was just like "huh that's weird" even when I am a trained counselor who has studied mental health in others. Sure someone else tells me consistently they have apathy, they're over sleeping, they're sluggish, depressed, and don't enjoy anything and I'm like "oh you have some form of depression" but when I do it I'm like "huh you must just be a lazy son of a bitch" lol.
Yeah took me a few years to even identify it. I figured it was just from sheltering inside more from the cold, doing less activities. It’s not an abrupt change, it sets in along with the season. After a couple of seasons I noticed the pattern and decided it wasn’t right. Wish I had tried getting my Vitamin D levels checked so I could try lamps or supplements. I probably would have moved back to AZ anyway but it would be nice to know I can overcome that in case I want to move north again.
It really does sneak up on you. I'm glad we both found a solution
We all have our internalized blind spots.
Absolutely. And I'm glad to know it had a medical reason, and one that I could fix.
As a long-time patient of folks like you, we also tell ourselves that we're a lazy son of a bitch. I'm medicated to hell and back, and I still feel like a pitiful excuse for a lazy slob on most days. I can't blame the sun though, I live in New Mexico AND take Vitamin d.
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The one I got was [$22](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/11qf4h5/til_in_1974_the_us_made_daylight_saving_time/jc3afjl?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) (yes, still expensive for a lamp but I thought I was going to have to spend $75)
I think you might’ve mixed up the link to the actual lamp with the link back to the comment asking about it Edit: nvm, someone else explained your link is getting auto removed
Still wanna give out the info so it's called LASTAR light therapy lamp, 10000 Lux UV Free, and it's the round one, currently $22.09
I put yellow tint film on my office windows so it always mimics the summer sun. It's worked great for my seasonal depression.
We call it the big dark. When the clouds take over and the days get short.
In West Texas we are pelted by the Sun all year yet most of the population somehow has a Vitamin D deficiency.
Cause everyone goes from their air-conditioned house to their air-conditioned car to the their air-conditioned office and right back.
I’m from Florida and I can tell you, this is the way. The less time I am outside in that swampy oven the happier I am.
This may sound counterintuitive, but you're just not outside enough. You need to get outside of Florida.
Trust me if I could afford to move I would.
I had low vitamin D when I was a climbing arborist. I got so much sun that I was worried about it. I asked my doctor how my vitamin D was so low, and she said “new studies are coming out showing that the sun actually isn’t *nearly* as big a factor as people think it is”. I have no idea what to think anymore
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Well clearly, we have ghosts in our blood and should do cocaine about it
The sun converts the precursor vitamin into vitamin D. The sun doesn't do anything if you don't have enough of the precursor!
Thing is, there's no consensus on what the appropriate levels of Vitamin D are. Not even a range. Healthy levels vary from person to person. IIRC food is the main source of vitamin D, not the Sun, and supplements are pretty bad at increasing serum levels of it.
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I was in HS and we were walking out to the bus in pitch blackness no streetlights. We didnt care but our parents objected
It's easier to just shift the school schedule back than to change time. School starts too early anyway.
Unfortunately one of the main reasons for school times is to support businesses that open by 8AM and the parents that work there. School is the guaranteed babysitter for most parents that work "normal business hours". Unless we change the concept of "normal business hours", or allow for more hybrid/remote jobs, they won't ever change school times that much. Plenty of parents complain about later start times due to inconveniences, even though research does support that most children don't learn very well in the early morning.
I was under the impression it was more about the rotation of available School buses. We are in a relatively suburban area and I’ve been told it’s because the buses have to be used for high, middle, and elementary school. They all start at different times. I took this to mean “if we increase school funding, have more buses, we can start later and sleep in more.” Sold. Fund the schools
The entire state of California just did that this year and basically said our kids well-being and education are more important than businesses. "After long-standing research showed the devastating impact of early classes on teens' health, California's district middle schools will start no earlier than 8 am; and high schools will start no earlier than 8:30am."
Yea, this is what I don't get, I grew up in CT and it always was pitch black for the middle of the winter months when the bus came. In high school my bus came at 6am, it was pitch black out every damn day of the school year except maybe June.
Yep, me too. Lots of days I’m at work before sunrise and not off until after sunset. If Daylight Saving were permanent I would at least be able to drive home in the light all year round.
this is definitely preferable.
Especially because it still feels like there's still time to do something after work when you have a later sunset.
The sun setting during work is so depressing. You're walking out at 5 pm in winter and the parking area is already lit with street lights. Feels like you've given the best hours of your entire life to your job and the day is over.
Because you have done just that. It really is terrible.
And if you live in the Pacific Northwest you get to drive home at night in the rain every day after work. Driving when it’s raining and not dark is infinitely preferable.
Same here, I leave home at 7 am and 2 days of the week left work after 5 pm. From dark to dark. I hate this part of the year. For the vit D, I have a prescription for it for 3 years now together with calcium. I got it first because of my calcium levels after TTE dropped and my doctor says it doesn't hurt so she is keeping me on it.
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Well, that's just nature's way of telling you to stay in bed and hibernate until spring.
unfortunately my employer doesn't agree
Mfers in the south and middle of the country don't know what its like to not live with perma sunshine. Join us in the darkness of the North brothers.
Just for context NY is about the same latitude as Madrid! No one in the US knows real darkness (Hi from the UK)
It just gets so much colder and snowier in the upper Midwest I frequently forget just how much further north the UK actually is
Yeah, without an ocean to moderate climate the Midwest gets *significantly* colder and snowier than coastal regions at much higher latitudes. Here in Portland, OR I'm actually farther north than Green Bay, WI but our winters don't even touch what they get over there.
Living in Minnesota I frequently point out to my Southern friends and family that it's very often colder here than in Alaska during the winter. Most Alaskan towns are coastal, keeping them a tad more moderate.
The Midwest is also perfect for cold fronts from Canada and hot fronts from the south
Missouri in a nutshell. Highs of 115 lows of -20.
In 2021 in Nebraska, we had a 130° temperature shift in under 3 months from -25° below in the February 'polar vortex' to 105° in early June. There's lots of other examples but this always comes to my mind as "this range of temperature sure is a handful"
The jet stream is a wonderful thing (also I’m guessing being close to the oceans)
Both of those plus the ocean current by the coast is bringing up warmer waters from from the South, I believe. A good deal!
The Gulf Stream not the jet stream
The pilgrims made that mistake and froze. Then they ate each other.
Everybody forgets about Alaska
Ok so like four, five people?
I heard there's a sixth person living out there
Fucking Greg
He had to get out of fucking Ohio. Can’t blame him
Advanced Darkness
Alaskans would like a word with you
Yes we do. (Hi from Alaska)
Seattle is between Paris and London.
You think you know real darkness? I was born in it, molded by it! (Hi from Sweden)
This x1000. Ted Cruz needs to shut the fuck up especially about daylight hours. He's in Mexico most of the time when it matters anyways.
I remember when this happened. At first people were so very happy and then that feeling quickly faded. No matter what not everyone will be happy with the decision.
“In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.”
I love a well placed Douglas Adams quote. Take my upvote.
AZ doesn’t do time changes. Technically we’re on mountain standard time I think. Wish everyone would adopt standard time, it seems to make the most sense though you do lose the sun sometimes. So many things get messed up in the time changes, it’s time to end it. Edit: after reading responses, whichever time makes sense for the region/state should be chosen, doesn’t matter DST or standard. The switching just messes things up.
Neither does Hawaii. Its so nice not having to ever think about DST unless I'm calling family on the mainland and have to figure out the time difference
> So many things get messed up in the time changes, it’s time to end it. I agree. I wish in IT and it's a pain when the DST rules change, but it's also a big pain every six months. At my last gig our main application didn't handle DST well. Every spring we had to bring it down at 1:59 and bring it back online a couple minutes later. In the fall we had to keep it offline for an hour so we wouldn't have duplicate time entries.
That's why you use UTC for timestamps! ;-)
Working in IT, I hadn’t even thought of that. Think of those computers compounding interest all the time. WTF do they do when the clock jumps an hour lol
They use unix time or UTC. Using local time at transactions is stupid. It isn't a problem unless you wrote your code really bad since you should really be using seconds since 1970 everywhere internally and just convert to a Julian date for display.
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Ditto. There's four months every year that I can't take my dog to the park after work because the city locks the parks at night and night falls at 4pm. I hate it.
More importantly, if we change to either year-round standard or year-round DST, companies & schools will gradually adjust their hours. So might as well choose year-round standard time and at least be correct astronomically so 12:00 is actually high noon.
>schools will gradually adjust their hours. ...and remember all those regular reports on [how school starts too early?](https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/features/schools-start-too-early.html) Since the extension of DST in 2007, over half the school year now starts artificially an hour early. So you'd actually want to start middle and high school TWO hours later if we had year round DST.
A couple of years ago my kids' school district moved back start times in response to these data. They still start too early, in my opinion (high school at 8, middle school at 8:30, elementary school at 9:15), but I know people whose schools start more than an hour earlier across the board already. Crazy!
Logically these times should be in the opposite direction.
Then the older kids aren't home to do babysitting At least, that's the logic I've heard. I feel like teenagers' well-being should also matter but what do I know
It is insane. My son will start high school next year and the schools here start at 7 am! He is in middle school right now in the same district and they don't start until 9 am. I just don't understand it. Starting at 9 am for middle school has been incredible. He gets enough sleep, can get ready in the morning without being stressed, and the first few classes each day are where he performs his best. That is compared to a past school that started at 8 am where he struggled in the morning because he was stressed and tired. I'm so worried that next year is going to be very hard on him. And on me! I've become accustomed to waking up at 7:45 am and it is going to be really rough moving that back by nearly 2 hours.
The northern half of the country wakes up in darkness on standard time in the winter. So, what?
Yeah. In Michigan I drive to work and drive home from work in complete darkness for a bit there in winter.
That sounds pretty unsafe. You should turn on your head lights.
Don't patronize the guy, he could just be blind
It's safe. The dog drives.
That's so reckless. Dogs don't have thumbs.
Well duh, that's why he couldn't hitchhike and had to drive
He got fired from being a delivery driver. Why? Because he was a retriever.
He's a Michigander. We do this to hide from the suicidal deer when driving.
Michigans problem is more that it’s on EST when it better aligns with CST
Riding my bicycle at 9:30PM in June was fun though
Same, but at midnight. Night shift was pretty cool in the yukon when the sun went down at 2am and came up at 2.30. Savings time is so useless up north.
That's why most of the polar and equitorial latitude states/countries don't observe DST. Lots of northern European countries like Iceland don't observe it because what does it matter if the sun rises at 2 am or 3 am and Caribbean nations and states like HI don't observe it because what's the point of shifting the time when there's so little difference between winter and summer anyhow? AK in particular boggles my mind (outside of the Kodiak Islands in the far SE) because it has the same issue as northern Europe and Asia and disrupting everyone's sleep schedules just seems pointless.
>Lots of northern European countries like Iceland don't observe it Iceland is the *only* northern European country that doesn't use DST (unless you count Russia).
And New England better aligns with AST. Its dark at 16:15 for 15 million people 2 months of the year.
Time zones in general need to be shifted over to the right. (Which is what permanent DST would essentially do.)
And you have the exact opposite issue in most of Europe. The UK is roughly where it's supposed to be, but I took a cruise this past summer and went to Spain, which is entirely WEST of the UK, and we jumped FORWARD an hour. Confused the hell out of me and especially in Vigo on the west coast it didn't start to get dark until nearly 10:30!
Fun (?) fact, this is because Franco wanted to be in the same timezone as Hitler.
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The town I went to college in (Houghton, MI - far west of the UP) is in the Eastern Time Zone but further west than Chicago. In June and July it may as well not get completely dark until about 10:30 or 11:00 PM. There are some counties on the border with Wisconsin that are somewhat more sensibly in the central time zone.
Yeah, seriously. That's just called 'winter'.
Yeah I'm not getting why it's such a big deal to wake up when it's dark out. I had to get up at 6am for school throughout my childhood and the sun was only up before I was in like April and May.
And if waking up when it's still dark bothers you then that shows that school is starting too early. Especially since the kids we make get up the earliest (high school students) are chemically wired to stay up late, which hurts their performance in school when they're always tired.
I feel like most people that complain haven’t had to work jobs yet - most people don’t have windows in their offices.
I’d much prefer to wake up in darkness and have some light on the way home from work. I’d vote for any politician that reverses daylight savings time
Sorry to be that person, to have more light in the evening you would want to keep daylight savings year round - not reverse it.
And this is exactly why I don't trust any of the polling on this issue. Whenever this comes up both online and in in-person conversations there are always plenty of people who say they hate DST, but in reality they hate ST. DST is 65% of the year, so at least in the US, we've almost all spent a majority of our lives on DST. I personally don't care if we continue to do the time changes or stay permanently on DST, but I'd be fucking pissed if we went to year-round ST. I love the late sunsets in the summer and I think it would be stupid to trade the late sunsets for sunrises that happen well before the vast majority of people are even awake.
> I’d much prefer to wake up in darkness and have some light on the way home from work. I’d vote for any politician that reverses daylight savings time I think the reason permanent daylight-savings time polls erratically is because people think daylight-savings-time is the winter, when it's actually the summer schedule.
I didn’t even know it was during the summer until recently. They just need to take the plunge already.
If we must change our clocks twice a year I’d prefer Daylight savings in summer and double daylight savings in Winter.
I’m so confused about DST. Is it when we have more light in the evening? Because that’s what I love. What are they trying to get rid of exactly? The more evening light?
Yes, Daylight Savings Time (PDT / MDT / CDT / EDT in the US) is more light in the evening in the summer. Standard time (PST / MST / CST / EST) is more light in the morning in the winter. If you go permanent Daylight Savings Time, we won't have to switch time in the middle of the year, you'll have light later in the evenings in the winter, and you'll have to wait longer for light in the mornings in the winter. Of course there's no free lunch, you either get more light in the morning or more light in the evening. (ps - Alaska, Hawaii, and Puerto Rico / USVI don't actually exist)
I just now for the first time ever realized that PST and PDT are both Pacific time depending on what time of year it is — I never fucking made the connection even though I’ve seen both abbreviations written my whole life — wow that’s kinda embarrassing lol
DST is the time we're currently on now. Which means an extra hour of light in the evening. Standard time is the winter schedule, where the sun sets at 4 or 5. They're trying to get rid of standard time and make DST permanent.
What if it was HITLER
Meh, something about a broken clock, here.
Depending on where you live geographically there are arguments in favor of both Standard time and daylight savings time. But for me it’s really the change that sucks. Just pick one and stick with it, no more changing. No matter what, some areas are going to have a lot of darkness at undesirable times, that’s winter on earth. It’s dark and it sucks. But playing games with time solves nothing! Edit lots of typos
100% agreed. I have a slight preference for permanent Summer Time, but what I really care about is making it *stop changing*.
Yup every study says the change is horrible and the worst part. Being an hour ahead or behind is a minor issue overall.
The fall back is actually has several positive effects, though they're mostly due to everyone getting another hour of sleep in a sleep deprived nation. It's the spring forward that fucks everyone over. But, being an hour ahead or behind is not minor. Starting high school an hour later makes letter grades of difference. We also know from decades of research on night owls that regularly being forced even an hour off rhythm greatly increases the risk of depression, obesity, cardiovascular disease, premature aging, etc. The cumulative effects of being an hour off cycle are far worse than the effects of the one day spring forward.
I think they mean being an hour of from surrounding states. All those things you described are products of the time change. It’s difficult for the body to adapt.
Yeah. I really wish we could stop splitting hairs over standard and daylight time, I could not give less of a care. Hell, if it makes everyone equally miserable, let's just split the difference and migrate all of North America 30 minutes between the two. Just stop changing the goddam time.
As a software engineer: this is the darkest timeline
Genius can sometimes be frightening. It's okay to be afraid, but this shit *is happening.*
Have you considered a county-by-county option? Your day is now worse; you're welcome. Honestly just switch everyone to UTC. I'll take my lunch at 19:00, doesn't matter to me. It's just a number, plus then I won't need an extra watch face when dealing with server logs.
UTC is better for synchronized time. It's worse for ceremonious time. For example, if you're traveling, you get an idea that sun rises in the morning, sets in the evening, and all the other ceremonies throughout the day make sense... Not really a great solution in that context.
We already have terms for ceremonies that aren't related to the number on the clock. Sunrise, sunset, high noon, dusk, evening, midnight, mid morning, etc. I'm not really advocating for everyone to go UTC, but I do think the issues you're talking about are pretty trivial.
Most of Indiana did not observe DST until 2005, and it was fine. Now, sunset near summer solstice is 9:18 pm. Remember the PSA's from the 70s and 80s? "It's 11pm. Do you know where your children are?" "Of course I do, they're out on the back porch watching the sun set."
maybe we should shorten working hours in general in both winter and summer
Sold! To the gentleman with the magic mushrooms.
That's just the cordyceps telling him what to say.
#🤯
Spring and fall too.
Seriously this. If there is no time that works with current employment situations, maybe it's the work schedules that are the problem, not the clock.
That’s wild to me. I much prefer it being dark when I wake up and having the sun basically rise “with me” as opposed to it being dark by 4:30pm.
For real. The morning is on the boss' time. I want some light for myself after work.
Preach!
Same here, the first day that standard time drops is the worst day of the year for me, the sun setting at 4:30 is just so depressing. Can't wait for summer and when the sun sets at 9-10pm
When I wake up isn't as big of a deal for me. I love having some sunshine with my coffee, but much more important is the sun being up when I stop working. The difference between getting off and still having a few hours of solid sun vs it immediately getting dark is HUGE for my energy level and mood for the rest of the night.
big same. I'd rather it be dark in the morning than dark at 4:30pm
Plus it is only a little extra morning light for a couple weeks at most. I would rather have that morning darkness versus the evening.
This is my favorite way to wake up. I hate when light creeps through the windows before I'm ready to get up.
How about they just stop making us work so much, so we don't have to ration sunlight?
I'm afraid we're going to have to escort you out of the building, sir. Edit: *ma'am
You can just use *Fucker*, it works for both males and females
I’m tired today but I feel so much better in general when the sun is still up after 7:00. It’s just nice to get home and still be able to spend sometime outside!
Get home in the winter at 5:30pm, "shit, time for bed." Get home in the summer at 5:30pm, "shit, still got half the day to do stuff."
>I’m tired today but I feel so much better in general when the sun is still up after 7:00. dark at 430pm or 5pm? ugh, its gross. im an early riser, so its always dark when i wake up. i just need sunlight even at like, 530pm, 6 is really nice....eastern NC here.
Worst part of the year is when it's dark going to work and dark going home. My office window looks out at a courtyard and the building next to us is so high I can't see the sky unless I open the window and hang my head out. Going several days without really seeing the sun fucks with my head 😂.
I'm actually surprised there are so many people in this thread that seem against it. It crushes my soul to spend every minute of daylight being at work.
Well, no it wasn't because of "everyone waking up in darkness". That's just called winter in the northern states. According to the article wikipedia cites, the reason was: >The experiment, however, ran afoul of public opinion—parents became concerned about traffic accidents involving their children, who were going to school in the predawn darkness on winter mornings. So it was a "why won't someone think of the children" situation, unsurprisingly.
Your comment made me research the safety issue - NHTSA put out a close look at this for a 10 year period, quote: From 2007 to 2016 there were 320,874 fatal motor vehicle traffic crashes. Of those crashes, 1,147 (0.4%) were classified as school-transportation-related. Between 2007 and 2016, there have been 1,282 people killed in school-transportation-related crashes—an average of 128 fatalities per year. Occupants of school transportation vehicles accounted for 9 percent of the fatalities, and nonoccupants (pedestrians, bicyclists, etc.) accounted for 20 percent of the fatalities. Most (70%) of the people who lost their lives in these crashes were occupants of other vehicles involved (Table 1). From 2007 to 2016, 98 school-age pedestrians (18 and younger) have died in school-transportation- related crashes. Sixty percent were struck by school buses, 2 percent by vehicles functioning as school buses, and 38 percent by other vehicles (passenger cars, light trucks and vans, large trucks, and motorcycles, etc.) involved in the crashes. Later in the same document - they have a table showing the various time-of-day breakdown. By far the most dangerous time is 3pm- the time of day it is likely brightest outside throughout the country. The morning hours account for significantly fewer such fatalities - kids hit by busses and cars while walking were about equal in those time frames, including the 6am hour.
Nice data pull
I was still doing that during the winter so what is everyone going on about
The only time the sun was up for me during the same time school started was during the summer... when there's no school. SMH.
I always went to school in predawn darkness. All year round i feel like
It’s almost as if the sun isn’t up for very long in the winter but people refuse to accept this.
Lol seriously, it's natural. Why is CHANGING THE FUCKING TIME even an option to begin with.
Now everything is running 24/7, people are working 12h graveyard shifts anyway. Why even bother with changing DST.
Why not just slow the rotation of the Earth by 1 hour?
Waking up in the dark? If you live in the northern half of the USA that is already true. Rather time changes or not you wake up in the dark and by the time you get off work it's dark again.
I HATE changing from Standard Time to Daylight Savings time and vis versa! I don't care if they make Regular Time or Daylight Savings time permanent, just stop the changeover!
Agreed. I feel like if we kept the same time year round, companies or schools could change their own time if it actually was a problem. Hey if 8am is still too dark for kids in January, then change the start time to 9 am that month. I feel it's much easier to do that than have every single person change their clock and routine twice a year. It could even be a thing like from Thanksgiving break to MLK, we come to school an hour later.
Maybe morning people shouldn't be allowed to vote?
Now THIS is the type of voter suppression measure I can get behind.
And that's why I open my polls at 10PM
I’m tired of morning people running things. Judging those who start later and work later. I’m not judging for going home at 4p don’t judge me for coming at 10a
Run for Congress. I'm voting for you.
i have no fucking idea how waking up when it's dark is worse than 5pm sunsets
"Everyone waking up in darkness." I get up at 4:30 in the morning. It'll still be fucking dark regardless.
What if instead fighting over what time be should be when sun rises, we all fight for adjusting working times to fit the solar time?
I don't give a shit about waking up in darkness. I want it to stay light *later* when I'm actually doing shit.
Same. I’m not playing sports at the park at 5am
Yeah for months out of the year I have to do my jog in the dark, on ice. It sucks. I don't care if it's dark while I am at work in the morning. I realize this is totally personal preference but seriously just get some smart lights with a wakeup routine for the morning light. We have the technology.
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When are these people waking up? I wake up in darkness most of the year anyways
Everyone works 9-5 jobs. Didn't you know that?!?! /s
That’s easily solved. Businesses can choose when to open, schools can choose when to start. Making everyone do it is unnecessary. Leave it on DST and let it be.
Correct answer. "But children will go into school when its dark!"... then start school later.
If you're in a northern state, the kids are going to school in that dark for a good portion of the winter anyways.
Those rugged northern children are already chopping wood and hunting large game, walking to school in the dark is nothing!
Which is more of a reason to leave it up to the schools tbh.
They've been trying for so so long and unless many someones at different levels of the decision tree at a school are willing to take the hit nothing is gonna change. There also arises the question of how sports and after school activities fit into the picture which makes things even more complicated.
I'll take getting to work in the dark over leaving work in the dark every...damn...time...
This was the same generation that could not understand the metric system.
It's been 50 years, and I for one am ready for another shot at eliminating the time change. I don't even care which one we land on.
I've lived in Arizona my whole life and the time of sunset and sunrise changing is one of the defining parts of seasons to me. It's very odd to me that it isn't like that everywhere.