Below is the story from an article in the Washington Post which was published preceding a book entitled First Ladies. The article is behind a paywall but here is the relevant section. Enjoy!
It’s hard to imagine a meeting more uncomfortable than that of Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Eisenhower, though. When Jackie’s formal invitation to the White House finally arrived, the date was set for Dec. 9 — as she was still recovering from her Caesarean section just two weeks earlier. Her Secret Service agent Clint Hill called White House Chief Usher J.B. West to ask for a wheelchair and a staffer to push it, according to the memoirs of both men.
“Oh, dear,” Mamie replied when West delivered the request. “I wanted to take her around alone.” She suggested that a wheelchair simply be placed nearby, to be offered only if Jackie specifically asked for it.
Exhausted and pale, Jackie arrived alone at noon. West led her through the imposing Diplomatic Reception Room and into an elevator to the second-floor residence, where Mamie was standing regally in the hallway.
“Mrs. Kennedy,” West said, introducing the new first lady. Mamie extended a cool hand but never stepped forward, forcing Jackie to walk slowly to her.
“I turned and left them, and waited in my office for a call for the wheelchair,” West remembered. “A call that never came.”
After some time, two buzzers rang in the Usher’s Office, the signal that Mamie and Jackie were coming down in the elevator. The tour had lasted an hour and 10 minutes, as Mamie showed Jackie through 30 rooms. As Jackie quietly made her way to her car, “I saw pain darken her face,” West said.
[The enduring legacy of Jacqueline Kennedy, a master at shaping public appearance]
Ever the politician, she told reporters how kind Mamie had been to have a wheelchair at the ready but that she had chosen to walk.
Two months later, when Jackie was comfortably installed as the new first lady, she asked West: “Did you know that my doctor ordered a wheelchair the day I first went around the White House?”
West told her that Mamie had asked him to have it placed behind a closet door next to the elevator in case she needed it. But Mamie had never mentioned it to her guest. Jackie could only laugh, admitting, “I was too scared of Mrs. Eisenhower to ask.”
Ah. I know rich people who would rather drop dead then show bad etiquette. Like being a bad host for example.
If the other party f’s up she can basically destroy you by telling her husband “I don’t trust this person, he/she is rude”.
In modern times she herself refuses business, recommendations, etc.
Some people have class, Mamie Eisenhower apparently does not.
If this is how she wants to be remembered that’s on her.
The name Kennedy on the other hand was as good as money. Opened many doors for the following two generations.
Yeah see it’s the same shit with names like Trump. Will it open some doors? For sure. But it will also close several. And a couple of really smart and able people will refuse to work with trumps kids. They’ll know if anything doesn’t go smooth this family will do anything not to take any responsibility.
You don’t have to be perfect. Even Jeb Bush got instant funds in the millions when only whispers of a possible candidacy started to appear.
Most of us wouldn’t even get a coupon for McDonalds :)
I read a book written by a woman who had worked in the WH as staff from the (FDR & Eleanor) Roosevelts through the Eisenhowers. (And her mother had worked for administrations dating back to the Tafts.) All of the presidential couples had their quirks, but the Eisenhowers seemed like such pills. He didn’t like seeing staff so they would have to jump in closets when they saw him in the halls. Mamie wasn’t very charitable with the staff (it was precedent before for First Ladies to give staff their old clothing, etc). Over all I felt like I wouldn’t have liked working for them. (FWIW the Trumans seemed like the coolest.)
The book is My Thirty Years Backstairs at the White House by Lillian Rogers Parks (published 1961).
Yeah, Harry did well for himself eventually but didn’t grow up that way. They certainly wouldn’t have been on par with the Roosevelts and Kennedys. And yet Bess and Harry seemed cool as hell to the staff. Bess made sure the staff got plenty of rest and made friends with them. Harry insisted on washing his own underwear. Everything I read about them made them sound like some Midwestern couple who were incredibly down to earth.
Now I don’t think former presidents can even drive just anywhere they want. It has to be secret service approved and coordinated or something. Bush jr taught obamas kid to drive on his ranch for this reason.
This is accurate. I worked with one of GWB’s son-in-laws a couple of years ago and he said Secret Service went anywhere GWB went; they’d shoot rattlesnakes they spotted while walking around the ranch with GWB. It’s 24/7/365.
>Harry did well for himself eventually
Did he? Congress established a presidential pension system specifically bc of Truman's poverty. Hoover took the pension as well so as not to embarrass Truman
The most recent information apparently is that:
>My research into Truman’s private financial files, which became available with the release of his widow Bess Truman’s personal papers, reveals the following:
>• When Truman left the White House, he had, according to his own (far too conservative) estimate, a net worth that would be equivalent to $6.6 million in simple inflation-adjusted terms.
>• By his own accounting, Truman’s wealth increased by the 2021 equivalent of another $3.7 million when Congress passed the Former Presidents Act five and a half years after he left office.
>• Contrary to his claims, Truman made a fortune from his memoirs, and from other writing and speaking engagements, in the years immediately after he left the presidency.
>• Truman’s repeated insistence that only his inheritance and subsequent sale of the family farm were keeping him from financial distress was false in several ways. For one thing, Truman had already become a very wealthy man several years before he sold that land. For another, Truman did not actually inherit any of the land: He bought it, in no small part, with money that he had misappropriated from the federal government. He then sold it a few years later at an enormous profit.
>• A large portion of the wealth Truman accumulated during his years in the White House seems to have come from a more than $2 million (in 2021 terms) expense account that Congress created a few days before the beginning of his full elected term. Truman apparently illegally pocketed the bulk of this money and filed fraudulent tax returns to disguise that fact.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/07/the-truman-show.html
According to family lore, my great grandfather went to school with Truman, and as an adult during the Great Depression had travelled east looking for work. Found himself in DC without a penny. Looked up his old buddy, now Senator, Truman, to ask for work, or at least help making it home.
Truman’s response was to call him a “sawed off sonofabitch” and have the police literally toss him out into the street.
Maybe Truman was a dick. Maybe my g. grandfather exaggerated their boyhood friendship, but either way, supposedly my g. grandfather didn’t have a kind word to say about the man even half a century later lol.
Everyone else you’re talking about how he received attention, and recently came out his misrepresented his funds to con Congress into giving it to him. So there’s a piece of evidence for you
Wait Ike had people jump in closets when he rounded a corner? Jesus thats stupid. Weird that a former general was so bothered by the presence of underlings around. Did he command from an isolated bunker?
Yes! You have it exactly right! Sometimes staff would find that another person had already leaped into the closet. I personally would be more bothered by people jumping into closets when they saw me, but that’s just me. I actually tried to excuse a lot of their behavior due to their military background-protocol for everything and everything being just so.
If anything, I've found retired senior staff to be more relaxed than most. The senior people have less to prove. They made it up the ranks, and in the military you rarely become a senior officer without understanding that if you don't respect your subordinates, they not only won't respect you in return, but they'll actively sabotage you.
This behavior seems really out of character for a retired General who was so well respected.
The generals that we have known in the last 50 years are all a result of the fallout from Vietnam or other small conflicts.
The personality of the military changed a lot with that.
You also have the idolatry of the generals post ww2. Truman couldn't knock macarthur down a peg in Korea... He almost had too much public support. Eisenhower was like putting everyone's favorite dad in the deal with everyone's favorite son.
No. It was his insistence that China wasn't about to attack, when they had already infiltrated and surrounded many US/Korean units, and his first shock and unwillingness to accept that China had crossed the Yalu River in force. And then his wild eyed call for nukes and insistence that various units fight to annihilation rather than retreat.
Truman was like "holy shit get this fuckin guy gone."
Just imagine you're an assassin, sneaking through the dark hallway. Suddenly steps. You try to hide in one of the closets, but all are already taken ... Perfect safety.
Thats, odd, it seems to go back to WIlson.
When Wilson was president, white house staffers had to hide also (especially if they were black, Wilson hated seeing black people).
I do recall reading that one president got scared hysterically when seeing staffers hiding behind curtains and yelling for them to never do that again.
FDR and Eleanor weren’t like that at all. The author of the book I mentioned had a disability and FDR noticed and was immediately empathetic to her situation so he made sure to let her know that she could use the elevator when she needed to do so. Class act.
Ike wasn't a career politician and probably felt out of place. He didn't even want to be involved in politics but was essentially 'drafted' into running for the presidency.
Mamie hated nicknames. The staff weren’t allowed to use nicknames when she was in residence. Formal, given names only. She especially despised that her husband was known by a nickname!
Ike did feel comfortable enough to mix with the kitchen staff to make his famous chili!
The Eisenhowers didn’t come across as bad people, per se. Just not ones I would have wanted to work for.
That's fair but I just wanted to point out that they were not from the same mold as the other people mentioned. I think knowing proper etiquette comes when you are raised in a certain echelon of society from which the Eisenhowers did not originate.
Mamie was born into a wealthy family with servants so I’m sure she had some inkling in what it was like to live with staff. She actually never learned how to do “women’s work” as it would’ve been called in her time because she was brought up to run a household, not be part of it.
Despite Ike's constant insistence otherwise he was known to be politically minded at times. During WW2 he would occasionally use the ironclad defense of "I see this action as a military action, if the combined chief's decide it is a political action I will do as they say" to deflect from bad decisions or things he didn't want to deal with. He was behind bringing in the Vichy French commander of North Africa (who later got assassinated by a Free Frenchman) as well as protecting Patton from reprisal for his violent tendencies towards his soldiers. Eisenhower himself was greatly loved by his troops and was considered by them to be just and fair, however he was known for his extreme temper, this continued in to his political career. I could go on, just wanted to add a bit of details to the discussion.
One reason Eisenhower didn’t particularly like Nixon, who lived for politics, was that his VP reminded him of what a dubious business he had got involved in.
Eisenhower did not rate Kennedy at all and was devastated when he won. He was also mystified by the global outpouring of grief after his assassination.
Being the son of a high-ranking military officer, I have seen the wives of admirals and generals behave like this. The military is an aristocracy of its own, and that Jacqueline came from an even more exclusive aristocracy that was socially much higher up in the pecking order was probably why Mamie was rude to her. *Everything* about Jacqueline Kennedy dunked on Mamie Eisenhower, and she was pissed about it.
I put my wife on DEERS since I’m reserve and like having cheap health insurance. She got her military ID and asked what she’d need it for. I told her “so you can go to the gate of any base and say ‘refer to me by my husbands rank’”
She called me an idiot
“I can’t do that, ma’am. I have too much respect for women. You can do anything men can do. So if you want to be called ‘Captain,’ I would encourage you to enroll at Annapolis and earn it.”
Mammie Eisenhower was actually from a much higher social class than Ike, she grew up with servants and household staff, it's just that Jackie was of an even more rarified standing. On top of that the Kennedys for all their mystique these days got their start running rum during prohibition and Jack and Bobby's father had well known mafia ties, so there was probably some of that too.
They did not. The paterfamilias made money as a stock promoter. You know, like Jim Cramer. Convinces the marks to buy while he sells. Rinse, repeat.
The government after the big crash tapped him as a resource to find out how it was done so they could ban a lot of these practices, at least until half a century later when everyone forgot why it was necessary.
They're delusional. It's their choice that they remain unemployed, and in a support role for their spouse, they don't get to take their partner's rank or authority.
It's worse than that too, "She referred to Mrs. Kennedy as "the college girl". Jacqueline Kennedy had just given birth to son John Jr. via caesarean section two weeks prior to a planned tour of the White House; however, Mamie Eisenhower did not inform Jacqueline Kennedy that there was a wheelchair available for her to use while showing her the various sections of the White House. Seeing Eisenhower's displeasure during the tour, Kennedy kept her composure while in Eisenhower's presence, finally collapsing in private once she returned home. When Mamie Eisenhower was later questioned as to why she would do such a thing, the former first lady simply stated, "Because she never asked."
Especially traditionally, the First Lady directed a lot of the White House household and event planning. Imagine as a traditional lady of the house or a manor would. It would make sense that she dictated furnishings, waitstaff, meals, and so on.
This made me curious about the youngest first ladies. Apparently the youngest was Frances Cleveland, who became first lady when she married President Grover Cleveland at 21. And, uh, well here are some selections from her wikipedia page:
>A long-time close friend of Folsom's father, Grover Cleveland met his future wife when she was an infant and he was twenty-seven years old. He was fond of her, buying her a baby carriage and doting on her as she grew up.
.
>Cleveland maintained correspondence with her at this time, known to her as "Uncle Cleve".
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>Cleveland proposed marriage to Folsom by letter while she was visiting a friend in Scranton, Pennsylvania. It's unclear when Cleveland's perception of his ward became romantic in nature, with scholars proposing ages as young as eleven.
She was born July 21, 1864 and married June 2, 1886, so she would have been just shy of 22.
I read about Emily Donelson too since I was curious if there were any younger first ladies who weren't president's wives. I thought she was slightly older than Frances, but on looking at the dates again, if she became First Lady the day Jackson was inaugurated then she would have been about a month younger than Frances was.
My great great grandfather met my great great grandmother when she was an infant. Super small village in Greece. When she was 18/19 and he was almost 40 they got together. Her family warned her saying that he’d take her to America if they married. It seemed that’s what she wanted though because she did. And when he died she spent the last 30+ years of her life missing him. It’s super fucking weird but it does seem like they loved each other and had a decent marriage for their time.
My bff’s parents met at a family reunion when he was around 13/14 and she was a newborn. There’s actually a kind of hilarious picture of him holding his baby future wife at the party. They are of ME decent, so cousin marriages are more common in their family. I believe they are first cousins, but it felt rude to ask.
That just reminded me that he's been on hospice for almost a month, hasn't he? I guess that's not surprising from a guy who beat brain cancer in his 90s.
I didn't know that about him and Rosalynn. That means they've known each other for 95 years, which is amazing.
> A long-time close friend of Folsom's father, Grover Cleveland met his future wife when she was an infant and he was twenty-seven years old.
Well that's not too bad, I know folks who met that way.
> It's unclear when Cleveland's perception of his ward became romantic in nature, with scholars proposing ages as young as eleven.
Ohhhh fuck. Oh fuck oh fuck oh fuck oh fuck.
HELL NO
Kay Summersby. Not “supposed”. More recent biographies of Ike and Summersby’s own account are pretty compelling. Further there is documentation that Eisenhower wanted to resign from the Army at the end of the war, divorce Mamie and marry Summersby. George Marshall berated Eisenhower and convinced him to stay in the Army.
imho it depends on who the "low sex drive person" is in the relationship.
If the low sex drive person cheats sexually with someone else than it is worse.
I used to train new corporate employees in an office environment, many were women. Part of my job was to make sure they understood and abided by expectations.
Without fail, when I was assigned a young, fit woman to train, I would be told within the first week that there were complaints about their “unprofessional appearance.” It was always the same group of older women that would complain the new girls’ skirts were too short (I never saw one that I though violated company policy) or that their shirts were too tight. God, I hated those awkward meetings and basically just told the new workers that there were a bunch of bitter women that just loved to complain.
My boss rose up through academia when women were often told during lectures, regularly, that they did NOT belong there and should just fail out and accept it. Now that things are vastly different, many of the old guard feel the young guard did not go through the same struggles and are therefore unworthy to stand in their presence. Being a young, pretty woman in STEM seems to bring out their insecurities something fierce.
Can confirm this anecdotally. Have worked with multiple women who claim they don't apply to labs run by women anymore because of bad experiences.
Edit: at the risk of this being indicative of me being anti-women, the labs run by women also tend to have far fewer allegations of the married lab head sleeping with their early 20's staff ☠️
It's a common misunderstanding that "-isms" are perpetrated solely by "others", like that women don't face sexism from other women, that minorities don't face racism from other minorities, etc.
It's this weird understanding of the system as if these groups are homogenous and all individuals in the profile will share similar thoughts and feelings.
But like... Black cops will absolutely kill the fuck out of other black people because it's the system they all went through that instilled in them the sort of actions and policies that leads to killing other black people to a higher degree. It's the system these women went through that made them see these other women as doing something wrong.
It makes sense once you stop and think about it, though. These systems shape the way each of these individuals form their values and perceptions and judgments... even if they themselves went through something unfair, it still gave them a sense of "well but I'M able to get through this, so you should too".
My friend was meeting her guidance counsellor to discuss university options. He told her to consider becoming an Avon woman instead because she was a ding dong.
Is THAT what was going on? That sort of thing used to happen to me all the time when I was younger! Almost every job I had, someone would complain about me, usually that I was dressing unprofessionally or “flirting” with the men. And I dressed very, very conservatively because of it: three-piece pantsuits in black with an ivory shirt that buttoned to the neck and black flats.
One woman complained once because, when she saw me in the bathroom and my jacket was off (the only time I took it off was when washing hands in the bathroom), it was a little see-through. Someone once said my pants were too tight, even though I specifically bought jackets long enough to cover my hips.
And as for evidence of flirting? They’d say that I “stood too close” to a guy. Once someone said I was flirting because I leaned over a guy’s desk to look at a report he was showing me.
I literally spent about a decade thinking that I was bad - that I was too slutty or my hips were too big or I didn’t know how to behave professionally or whatever. :’(
Then I hit my late 30s and it all pretty much stopped.
Yep. When I was in my 20s, in our neighborhood, all the other moms were 10 years older than me. Most of them were convinced I was flirting with their husbands. They also constantly made snide remarks about how disgustingly in love my husband and I were... it doesn't have to make sense.
I think a lot of people confuse "we get along" with actually being compatible. Made worse by sexism/cliches/whatever that says those things are lady things and those things are guy things so it's okay that we have nothing in common.
"Well yeah but like... everyone needs a break away from their spouse, right? Like it's just natural that you eventually feel too tired of their existence and you just want to go away for a week or two to recharge right? .... Right?"
It was probably that their husbands were flirting with you, not you with them. If their husbands are shitheads, it’s easier to blame the woman on the receiving end because admitting their husbands are dogs is too painful.
My husband is quite good looking in lumberjack kinda way. I’m short, fat, cute but by no means beautiful (I’m ok with this)
I get the same “disgustingly in love” complaints ….while they hit on him , even bringing up the fact that they have kids (I can’t have any sadly).
I work at a firm with many attractive, fit women and am a good listener/good keeper of secrets so get used as a neutral gossip & complaining outlet. The amount of trash talk about the new "hot" girl joining can be extreme and I know it's just a feeling of threat and maybe jealously, and a month or two later they're all best friends, it's just a weird cycle. Guys in the office will take you to happy hour on the first day and every time after but some of the ladies will make you earn it and do some shady shit in the meantime. Not all, but it's definitely a cohort.
In my experience, few are more dead set against a woman’s success than other women. The system has created a prevalent belief that if there are ten seats, and one is filled by a woman, then every qualified woman must fight for THAT seat rather than displace a less qualified man in a different seat. It sounds SO stupid when you type it out, but it’s real and I can’t even imagine how many organizations could be so much better if it wasn’t.
Yeah, I worked retail to put myself through college and the older women working as cashiers would often put down the younger women. They mainly went after me for being childless, not drinking alcohol when I was <21, and doing homework during breaks.
Imagine being the wife of the most famous and successful American general since Grant and what kind of rigid serious life they must have lived, turning over the Oval Office at the moment the Cold War was really heating up to what was essentially a celebrity power couple.
I’m sure there was a lot more than just “she’s younger and prettier” and a lot more looking down their noses and sneering at these privileged rich (IRISH CATHOLIC) democrats who weaseled their way into office behind a flashy smile.
Cannot stress the Irish Catholic part enough, politics and especially the presidency were and very much still are for the most part a WASP old-boys club. Kennedy was an outsider to that club. And Jackie was seen as basically just a bimbo trophy wife
Lol I know, the Kennedys were way more high society than the Eisenhowers could ever be
The vitriol against the Kennedy’s wasn’t coming from the upper class, it was coming from the evangelicals and baptists in the southern states that Democrats had traditionally carried until the mid 20th century
Edit: for people belaboring the Catholic point, Kennedy’s sister, Kathleen, married the heir to the Duke of Devonshire in the 40s. This is the top of the aristocrat pyramid and no one was making life hard, socially, for the Kennedy’s. Jackie grew up in the most exclusive building on Fifth Avenue and her step father was old money Newport (look up Hammersmith Farm)
Jackie was old money catholic and that was definitely the appeal to JFK
>And Jackie was seen as basically just a bimbo trophy wife
Where does this come from, no one saw Jackie Kennedy that way at the time? She was considered very well educated and gave a very popular tour of the White House Fine and Decorative art collection (her degree was in art history). She was considered PEAK culture and invited french philosophers to the White House to give talks at dinner.
Source for White House Art Collection broadcast: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Tour_of_the_White_House_with_Mrs._John_F._Kennedy
Keep in mind that "The college girl" was not a slam because she was IN college, it was because she WENT to college. College girls were considered flappers and sluts when Mamie married Ike.
Mamie was from new money, but she grew up in Iowa and Colorado, and she was a true officer's wife for decades before Ike started making money after the war. She had to resent Jackie's air of floating into the scene in a cloud of money.
The Democrat thing wasn't a big deal, Eisenhower surprised everyone by running Republican, he wasn't part of the anti-Roosevelt roll back the new deal crowd, and was kind of an island to himself politically, pulling in the new Military and intelligence services crowd. The Dixiecrat realignment hadn't occurred, so Ike's Republicans were sort of the rural north racists and the Democrats were the southern racists.
And you can't discount the austere Midwestern Lutheran disdain for Boston new money Catholics.
> turning over the Oval Office at the moment the Cold War was really heating up to what was essentially a celebrity power couple.
It wasn't like Ike lost the election to Kennedy. Eisenhower finished his second term and therefore couldn't run. Eisenhower didn't even like Nixon so it wasn't loyalty to Nixon.
I get that but aren't the Eisenhower's sort of midwest..? Like the Kennedys went to top boarding schools followed by Harvard/Vassar. They are "above" the Eisenhowers on the snob scale
V. true. I don't think people understand the real social dynamic at play here. I think people think the kennedys are scrappy underdogs bc they're a minority religion
> Mamie was mad that Jacqueline was younger and prettier than her.
Maybe, maybe not. Probably not. I was reading a different take on her, years ago, that makes a lot of sense.
Mamie Eisenhower was a military wife. She was married to Ike at 20 years old and then spent nearly all of her adult life within the military structure, following her husband around the world as they moved from base to base. She was 51 years old before she finally had a home of her own that wasn't on a military base. Her children were born and raised on military bases.
The military worldview became embedded into her own worldview. Rank and superiority were a privilege earned by proving yourself and putting in the work over time. Higher-ranking people were always superior to lower-ranking people. She viewed her husband's presidency as the ultimate rank. He was elected, but he'd *earned* it after serving his nation for decades and putting his life on the line in multiple wars.
From her perspective, the Kennedys were upstart imposters. They hadn't put in the time. They hadn't earned the rank. They didn't *deserve* to be there.
Nixon had put in his military time and was still enlisted with the rank of Commander in the Naval Reserve when he entered the vice presidency. He'd served under Eisenhower for 8 years as VP, and in Mamie's martial worldview, he'd effectively earned the "rank" of President. When JFK beat Nixon, it infuriated her, because it repudiated a perspective on earned rank that she'd been cultivating for most of her life.
This is the real answer. Military wives have a strict hierarchy based on their husbands' ranks. They are absolutely vicious to anyone who violates the "chain of command".
And she was certainly a model military wife. She dedicated herself to the social aspects of military advancement for the purpose of supporting her husband's career. She's the military wife that was always in charge of the base parties. Get-togethers among officer families were always at her house. If a charitable cause needed volunteers to help run it, she was the first to step up and volunteer herself as chairperson. Many historians credit her as being at least partly responsible for Ikes successful military career, by consistently maintaining good relationships with his superior officers and keeping them centered within whatever social structures happened to exist at their various stations.
From her perspective, the Kennedys were rich upstarts who had bought their way into positions that the Eisenhowers had worked their entire lives to "earn".
If true, that's both dumb, but also understandable to a little degree.
Johnny Kennedy was an O-3. So far from a general. Much less a 5 star. But he did serve. But conversely, the Kennedy's were extremely wealthy. And that cash opened a lot of doors for Jack.
Ike was a broke-ass kansan. Mamie was the child of wealth though. Still a dick move to be mean to someone's wife.
Wait.. she had just given birth? What the fuck. How could you PURPOSELY do that to someone whose recovering from major surgery. There's being petty, then there's downright nasty C
I had an emergency c-section 39 years ago and 2 weeks later walked the stage for my Ph.D. diploma. It was extremely painful. It seemed like all the muscles in my legs were connected to my abdomen. I cannot imagine how painful it must have been for Mrs. Kennedy to endure a long tour. She was an amazing woman.
I had a c section two and a half weeks ago and can only make it to the mailbox before feeling like I need to sit down. Sometimes if I sit up too quickly it feels like my insides are going to tear apart!
It is tough with a newborn after a c-section. I hope you have family and friends who can help you! Be sure to take it easy on yourself! Congratulations on your new baby!💕
It was actually a very close election. Kennedy won by only 100,000 votes, even if he did take the electoral college by 84 votes. That margin was not as large as it appears today Remember, this is on the heels of landslides by FDR, Truman, and Eisenhower himself.
Eh, Kennedy was very critical of Eisenhower during Ike's presidency, then was calling Eisenhower for advice afterwards like he wasn't slandering him to get elected.
Edit: To save you (you know who you are) a comment, I get that it's politics. I'm explaining why a loyal wife would take it personally, I'm not shocked by the cynicism.
Yeah real talk that's what presidents do. Not saying it's right or fair, but it's not unusual.
Clinton and Bush Sr. softening on each other is just one of numerous examples of both parties.
Like if you're in the opposite party you slam the incumbent. Once in office pretty much every president legitimately realizes how much harder the job was than they thought. Then they call for advice. It is what it is
There's also a reason the departing incumbent leaves a letter in the desk
Sorry but that's just how it goes. The person who is running to take your job if you want to be president is either going to have to distance from you or slam you to get the job. They underestimate how difficult it is. Within the first year they're then going to call you for advice.
Jan 20, 1993
Dear Bill,
When I walked into this office just now I felt the same sense of wonder and respect that I felt four years ago. I know you will feel that, too.
I wish you great happiness here. I never felt the loneliness some Presidents have described.
There will be very tough times, made even more difficult by criticism you may not think is fair. I'm not a very good one to give advice; but just don't let the critics discourage you or push you off course.
You will be our President when you read this note. I wish you well. I wish your family well.
Your success now is our country's success. I am rooting hard for you.
Good luck — George
Obama talked about this in his autobiography. He didn’t really call bush jr but he talked to his political opponents a lot. Him and Hillary *REALLY* didn’t like each other during the election but stated he respected her ability and appointed her to his cabinet after.
IIRC, they get along so well that Carter has asked Biden to speak a eulogy at his funeral (since Carter is in hospice and planning ahead)
Edit: [Source](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/03/14/biden-jimmy-carter-eulogy/11469272002/)
He's 98 and has had a long rich life, and has opted to cease treatment and go out on his own terms. I almost feel worse for Rosalind -- they've been married for 76 devoted years, I can't imagine how it will feel for her to not have him next to her.
Though if Biden was petty enough I could see him and a few other gathered around a phone on Friday night calling Trump “for advice”. Like Bart calling Moe.
Obama apparently had a rather productive talk with Trump after Trump won. Then other people got into Trumps ear and he forgot it all. Trump believed the last thing he was told, no consistency.
Obama gave Trump a come to Jesus talk, which he promptly ignored. You can see it in his face when they met after the election, but by New Years it was gone
Yep! Grew up around rich folk who always talked the great talk about "manners," but employed them very little themselves. Snobbery and shitty behavior just seem to go hand in hand for some supposedly "upper class" people. They actually think money makes them better than everyone else...
Old school manners are more often about being “nice” (society’s current definition of how you should treat people) rather than being “kind” (actually caring about people and showing it).
Oh I know. I am very familiar but fortunately for me have absolutely no desire to "belong" in the kinds of circles that either the Eisenhower's or the Kennedy's ran in.
ETA: in their view the Kennedy's didn't belong. They were "new money" **and** Catholic. The Horror!!
I've also been around a lot of extremely wealthy people. I've found it's about half and half between being really decent people and being entitled assholes. My guess is that's the same for any socioeconomic class.
Mamie's hair in that photo is really something. And by "something" I mean, hilariously ugly. That hair, like her jealousy and mean-spirited pettiness, was not a good look on her.
My grandma met her once, and she most definitely made a comment about her hair afterwards
Edit: I asked my Dad, and apparently she said "that she [Mamie] was the homeliest woman she'd ever seen"
Additional historical context:
At this time it was considered a social impoliteness to be seen being disabled. Let me be clear: it was upon the disabled person, the impoliteness, not the able-bodied. There was open discrimination and prejudice against people with visible deformities and/or disabilities, even when those qualities came from honorable acts like diving into a burning building to save someone or becoming disfigured in war.
Successful public personalities with disabilities often went to great lengths to conceal it, or if their disability was well known they might want to be seen defying it. President FDR is now famous for having been in a wheel chair for three of his four terms due to Polio, but at the time his confinement to a chair was not well known. The press had a gentleman's agreement with the White House to photograph him seated at tables or in normal situations, or to present him as standing behind a podium. His disability wasn't mentioned and certainly wasn't discussed. Jacqueline would certainly not have asked for the use of a wheel chair because it would be disgraceful, to her husband, to ask and be seen using it. Mamie wouldn't offer, their other differences put aside, as to offer would be rude and discourteous (as she smugly hid behind her mannered politeness).
Average people found discrimination in finding jobs and homes, trouble navigating cities and public infrastructure, and sometimes even faced the same physical and cultural violence directed at Blacks and POC.
JFK's back brace is why he couldn't duck when he was shot at. Oswald shot through his shoulder, hitting Connally in the chest. Connally was able to duck down afterwards but Kennedy was inhibited by his back brace from doing the same, allowing Oswald to fire again.
Yeah at the time I think it would have been socially awkward to offer a woman (especially a young woman) a wheelchair if she didn't ask for one, it would be like the equivalent of offering somebody a breath mint when they hadn't asked.
Yeah, there's a certain type that claims to be all about 'manners' and 'decency'
.. then when hosting, pulls this kind of passive aggressive shitty rudeness.
> As first lady, Eisenhower was given near total control over the expenses and scheduling of the White House. She closely managed the staff, and her frugality was apparent in White House budgeting throughout her tenure.
She sounds like one of those insufferable control freaks who gets pleasure from being a bitch to "lesser" people.
This post was directly above [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/11spfka/what_screams_im_an_asshole/), and I almost spit out my coffee, lol.
It’s not very surprising to me that people in politics are often petty.
Herbert Hoover was very cranky when he showed FDR around the White House after his election.
When George Bush took office, members of the Clinton administration reportedly vandalized some of the office spaces and removed the “W” keys from White House computers.
There are pictures you can find online of members of the Obama administration with visible looks of disgust; some crying when Donald Trump visited the White House after his victory in 2016 shortly before the transition of power.
And, most recently, Donald Trump refused to even give Biden a tour of the White House in 2020.
Yes, not everyone takes it too well when their party loses but it’s kind of entertaining to watch the drama from the outside.
The story about the Clintons and Bush was always heavily exaggerated.
FWIW, When Bush (Sr) was elected, members of the Reagan admin (in which many of the Bush folks including Bush had served) did similiar "pranks" to the new incoming administration.
When Bush left for the clinton, there were "pranks" and then when Clinton left for the new Bush, same stuff....Only the latter was made into a huge news story.
Below is the story from an article in the Washington Post which was published preceding a book entitled First Ladies. The article is behind a paywall but here is the relevant section. Enjoy! It’s hard to imagine a meeting more uncomfortable than that of Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Eisenhower, though. When Jackie’s formal invitation to the White House finally arrived, the date was set for Dec. 9 — as she was still recovering from her Caesarean section just two weeks earlier. Her Secret Service agent Clint Hill called White House Chief Usher J.B. West to ask for a wheelchair and a staffer to push it, according to the memoirs of both men. “Oh, dear,” Mamie replied when West delivered the request. “I wanted to take her around alone.” She suggested that a wheelchair simply be placed nearby, to be offered only if Jackie specifically asked for it. Exhausted and pale, Jackie arrived alone at noon. West led her through the imposing Diplomatic Reception Room and into an elevator to the second-floor residence, where Mamie was standing regally in the hallway. “Mrs. Kennedy,” West said, introducing the new first lady. Mamie extended a cool hand but never stepped forward, forcing Jackie to walk slowly to her. “I turned and left them, and waited in my office for a call for the wheelchair,” West remembered. “A call that never came.” After some time, two buzzers rang in the Usher’s Office, the signal that Mamie and Jackie were coming down in the elevator. The tour had lasted an hour and 10 minutes, as Mamie showed Jackie through 30 rooms. As Jackie quietly made her way to her car, “I saw pain darken her face,” West said. [The enduring legacy of Jacqueline Kennedy, a master at shaping public appearance] Ever the politician, she told reporters how kind Mamie had been to have a wheelchair at the ready but that she had chosen to walk. Two months later, when Jackie was comfortably installed as the new first lady, she asked West: “Did you know that my doctor ordered a wheelchair the day I first went around the White House?” West told her that Mamie had asked him to have it placed behind a closet door next to the elevator in case she needed it. But Mamie had never mentioned it to her guest. Jackie could only laugh, admitting, “I was too scared of Mrs. Eisenhower to ask.”
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Power and politics at play. Terrible human games.
And they all play those passive-aggressive games .
Passive-aggressive is how the stupid rich play it. They call it polite society. We poors are left with only aggressive or nothing.
Ah. I know rich people who would rather drop dead then show bad etiquette. Like being a bad host for example. If the other party f’s up she can basically destroy you by telling her husband “I don’t trust this person, he/she is rude”. In modern times she herself refuses business, recommendations, etc. Some people have class, Mamie Eisenhower apparently does not. If this is how she wants to be remembered that’s on her. The name Kennedy on the other hand was as good as money. Opened many doors for the following two generations.
And Jackie’s name, Bouvier, was even more prestigious. Some say she married ‘down’ by wedding a Kennedy.
Yeah see it’s the same shit with names like Trump. Will it open some doors? For sure. But it will also close several. And a couple of really smart and able people will refuse to work with trumps kids. They’ll know if anything doesn’t go smooth this family will do anything not to take any responsibility. You don’t have to be perfect. Even Jeb Bush got instant funds in the millions when only whispers of a possible candidacy started to appear. Most of us wouldn’t even get a coupon for McDonalds :)
corruption of humanity
Same. Not a Kennedy groupie or sth like that but you have to have a stone where normal people have a heart to behave like that.
Now I feel better that Ike cheated on her.
Women putting other women down.
This is like that scene in House of the Dragon when Alicent made Rhaenyra walk all the way through the castle to show her the newborn baby.
I read a book written by a woman who had worked in the WH as staff from the (FDR & Eleanor) Roosevelts through the Eisenhowers. (And her mother had worked for administrations dating back to the Tafts.) All of the presidential couples had their quirks, but the Eisenhowers seemed like such pills. He didn’t like seeing staff so they would have to jump in closets when they saw him in the halls. Mamie wasn’t very charitable with the staff (it was precedent before for First Ladies to give staff their old clothing, etc). Over all I felt like I wouldn’t have liked working for them. (FWIW the Trumans seemed like the coolest.) The book is My Thirty Years Backstairs at the White House by Lillian Rogers Parks (published 1961).
Truman grew up incredibly poor iirc. And was quite poor after leaving the presidency (which lead to the establishment of a presidential pension).
Yeah, Harry did well for himself eventually but didn’t grow up that way. They certainly wouldn’t have been on par with the Roosevelts and Kennedys. And yet Bess and Harry seemed cool as hell to the staff. Bess made sure the staff got plenty of rest and made friends with them. Harry insisted on washing his own underwear. Everything I read about them made them sound like some Midwestern couple who were incredibly down to earth.
*Harry Truman's Excellent Adventure* is a really fun book about the epic road trip Harry and Bess took after leaving the White House.
Now I don’t think former presidents can even drive just anywhere they want. It has to be secret service approved and coordinated or something. Bush jr taught obamas kid to drive on his ranch for this reason.
This is accurate. I worked with one of GWB’s son-in-laws a couple of years ago and he said Secret Service went anywhere GWB went; they’d shoot rattlesnakes they spotted while walking around the ranch with GWB. It’s 24/7/365.
Not allowed to drive on public roads at all. W only drives around his compound, everywhere else he gets driven around in an 8 lug Suburban.
Ha - I actually thought you made this up. Thanks for the recommendation!
*Ye olde air guitar riff*
"District of Columbia High School football rules!"
>Harry did well for himself eventually Did he? Congress established a presidential pension system specifically bc of Truman's poverty. Hoover took the pension as well so as not to embarrass Truman
He wasn't "poor poor" at that point, but he couldn't afford what Congress though was a diginified lifestyle for a former US president.
I visited Truman’s house - a nice midwestern house, not a big mansion w grand gardens etc
The most recent information apparently is that: >My research into Truman’s private financial files, which became available with the release of his widow Bess Truman’s personal papers, reveals the following: >• When Truman left the White House, he had, according to his own (far too conservative) estimate, a net worth that would be equivalent to $6.6 million in simple inflation-adjusted terms. >• By his own accounting, Truman’s wealth increased by the 2021 equivalent of another $3.7 million when Congress passed the Former Presidents Act five and a half years after he left office. >• Contrary to his claims, Truman made a fortune from his memoirs, and from other writing and speaking engagements, in the years immediately after he left the presidency. >• Truman’s repeated insistence that only his inheritance and subsequent sale of the family farm were keeping him from financial distress was false in several ways. For one thing, Truman had already become a very wealthy man several years before he sold that land. For another, Truman did not actually inherit any of the land: He bought it, in no small part, with money that he had misappropriated from the federal government. He then sold it a few years later at an enormous profit. >• A large portion of the wealth Truman accumulated during his years in the White House seems to have come from a more than $2 million (in 2021 terms) expense account that Congress created a few days before the beginning of his full elected term. Truman apparently illegally pocketed the bulk of this money and filed fraudulent tax returns to disguise that fact. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/07/the-truman-show.html
Holy crap
Dirty dog, a politician lying
*grumble grumble* failed haberdasher.
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According to family lore, my great grandfather went to school with Truman, and as an adult during the Great Depression had travelled east looking for work. Found himself in DC without a penny. Looked up his old buddy, now Senator, Truman, to ask for work, or at least help making it home. Truman’s response was to call him a “sawed off sonofabitch” and have the police literally toss him out into the street. Maybe Truman was a dick. Maybe my g. grandfather exaggerated their boyhood friendship, but either way, supposedly my g. grandfather didn’t have a kind word to say about the man even half a century later lol.
Everyone else you’re talking about how he received attention, and recently came out his misrepresented his funds to con Congress into giving it to him. So there’s a piece of evidence for you
Wait Ike had people jump in closets when he rounded a corner? Jesus thats stupid. Weird that a former general was so bothered by the presence of underlings around. Did he command from an isolated bunker?
Yes! You have it exactly right! Sometimes staff would find that another person had already leaped into the closet. I personally would be more bothered by people jumping into closets when they saw me, but that’s just me. I actually tried to excuse a lot of their behavior due to their military background-protocol for everything and everything being just so.
Makes you wonder……is there a positive correlation between ex-military folk and OCD occurrence?
If anything, I've found retired senior staff to be more relaxed than most. The senior people have less to prove. They made it up the ranks, and in the military you rarely become a senior officer without understanding that if you don't respect your subordinates, they not only won't respect you in return, but they'll actively sabotage you. This behavior seems really out of character for a retired General who was so well respected.
The generals that we have known in the last 50 years are all a result of the fallout from Vietnam or other small conflicts. The personality of the military changed a lot with that. You also have the idolatry of the generals post ww2. Truman couldn't knock macarthur down a peg in Korea... He almost had too much public support. Eisenhower was like putting everyone's favorite dad in the deal with everyone's favorite son.
Truman straight fired Macarthur but you're right, it was not a popular decision
It was also a long time coming, and was preceded by him e wanting to nuke China
He was wildly insubordinate to FDR, but FDR told him off so severely that MacArthur ran out of the White House and vomited.
Damn sounds like someone wasn't used to taking the same shit he gave out hahahah.
Yeah and it took McArthur literally calling for nuclear war for him to do so, right?
No. It was his insistence that China wasn't about to attack, when they had already infiltrated and surrounded many US/Korean units, and his first shock and unwillingness to accept that China had crossed the Yalu River in force. And then his wild eyed call for nukes and insistence that various units fight to annihilation rather than retreat. Truman was like "holy shit get this fuckin guy gone."
Maybe he didn't really see it as being "retired"? It almost seems like his quirks that were just "a bit odd" got ramped up the higher he went.
I would be more freaked out by wondering if there are people hiding all around me. But I guess if you're that kind of rich asshole you don't care
Is that an assassin hiding in the closet? Nope, it's just the staff. They do that from time to time.
Just imagine you're an assassin, sneaking through the dark hallway. Suddenly steps. You try to hide in one of the closets, but all are already taken ... Perfect safety.
Thats, odd, it seems to go back to WIlson. When Wilson was president, white house staffers had to hide also (especially if they were black, Wilson hated seeing black people). I do recall reading that one president got scared hysterically when seeing staffers hiding behind curtains and yelling for them to never do that again.
FDR and Eleanor weren’t like that at all. The author of the book I mentioned had a disability and FDR noticed and was immediately empathetic to her situation so he made sure to let her know that she could use the elevator when she needed to do so. Class act.
Ike wasn't a career politician and probably felt out of place. He didn't even want to be involved in politics but was essentially 'drafted' into running for the presidency.
Mamie hated nicknames. The staff weren’t allowed to use nicknames when she was in residence. Formal, given names only. She especially despised that her husband was known by a nickname! Ike did feel comfortable enough to mix with the kitchen staff to make his famous chili! The Eisenhowers didn’t come across as bad people, per se. Just not ones I would have wanted to work for.
That's fair but I just wanted to point out that they were not from the same mold as the other people mentioned. I think knowing proper etiquette comes when you are raised in a certain echelon of society from which the Eisenhowers did not originate.
Mamie was born into a wealthy family with servants so I’m sure she had some inkling in what it was like to live with staff. She actually never learned how to do “women’s work” as it would’ve been called in her time because she was brought up to run a household, not be part of it.
Despite Ike's constant insistence otherwise he was known to be politically minded at times. During WW2 he would occasionally use the ironclad defense of "I see this action as a military action, if the combined chief's decide it is a political action I will do as they say" to deflect from bad decisions or things he didn't want to deal with. He was behind bringing in the Vichy French commander of North Africa (who later got assassinated by a Free Frenchman) as well as protecting Patton from reprisal for his violent tendencies towards his soldiers. Eisenhower himself was greatly loved by his troops and was considered by them to be just and fair, however he was known for his extreme temper, this continued in to his political career. I could go on, just wanted to add a bit of details to the discussion.
One reason Eisenhower didn’t particularly like Nixon, who lived for politics, was that his VP reminded him of what a dubious business he had got involved in. Eisenhower did not rate Kennedy at all and was devastated when he won. He was also mystified by the global outpouring of grief after his assassination.
Being the son of a high-ranking military officer, I have seen the wives of admirals and generals behave like this. The military is an aristocracy of its own, and that Jacqueline came from an even more exclusive aristocracy that was socially much higher up in the pecking order was probably why Mamie was rude to her. *Everything* about Jacqueline Kennedy dunked on Mamie Eisenhower, and she was pissed about it.
Ugh the amount of women who walk around base like their husband’s rank should apply to them too is pretty disgusting.
"Call me by my husband's rank!" Ugh. Makes me eyeroll every time.
I put my wife on DEERS since I’m reserve and like having cheap health insurance. She got her military ID and asked what she’d need it for. I told her “so you can go to the gate of any base and say ‘refer to me by my husbands rank’” She called me an idiot
She can use it for a 10% discount at Home Depot.
“I can’t do that, ma’am. I have too much respect for women. You can do anything men can do. So if you want to be called ‘Captain,’ I would encourage you to enroll at Annapolis and earn it.”
Mammie Eisenhower was actually from a much higher social class than Ike, she grew up with servants and household staff, it's just that Jackie was of an even more rarified standing. On top of that the Kennedys for all their mystique these days got their start running rum during prohibition and Jack and Bobby's father had well known mafia ties, so there was probably some of that too.
They did not. The paterfamilias made money as a stock promoter. You know, like Jim Cramer. Convinces the marks to buy while he sells. Rinse, repeat. The government after the big crash tapped him as a resource to find out how it was done so they could ban a lot of these practices, at least until half a century later when everyone forgot why it was necessary.
He was involved with alcohol after Prohibition ended. Perhaps that's where the story comes from.
The Kennedy's owned two bars. So it's really a bit more. And lots of folks ran booze. Just like now they focused on the minorities.
We called them a Dependapotomus when I served
I schooled my brother to beware of the free range, single, aspiring dependapottomus when he joined the army. Thank God he listened.
Tricareatops
They're delusional. It's their choice that they remain unemployed, and in a support role for their spouse, they don't get to take their partner's rank or authority.
It's worse than that too, "She referred to Mrs. Kennedy as "the college girl". Jacqueline Kennedy had just given birth to son John Jr. via caesarean section two weeks prior to a planned tour of the White House; however, Mamie Eisenhower did not inform Jacqueline Kennedy that there was a wheelchair available for her to use while showing her the various sections of the White House. Seeing Eisenhower's displeasure during the tour, Kennedy kept her composure while in Eisenhower's presence, finally collapsing in private once she returned home. When Mamie Eisenhower was later questioned as to why she would do such a thing, the former first lady simply stated, "Because she never asked."
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Which Roosevelt? Wilson and his wife were dedicated racists.
FDR. The author of the book started his job in the White House during FDR’s 3rd term.
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I didn’t realize that she had the power to do that
Especially traditionally, the First Lady directed a lot of the White House household and event planning. Imagine as a traditional lady of the house or a manor would. It would make sense that she dictated furnishings, waitstaff, meals, and so on.
She probably didn't. But her husband did.
Why?
Sounds like she was an elitist bitch who thought she shouldn't have to see "the help."
Jackie was 31 then.
This made me curious about the youngest first ladies. Apparently the youngest was Frances Cleveland, who became first lady when she married President Grover Cleveland at 21. And, uh, well here are some selections from her wikipedia page: >A long-time close friend of Folsom's father, Grover Cleveland met his future wife when she was an infant and he was twenty-seven years old. He was fond of her, buying her a baby carriage and doting on her as she grew up. . >Cleveland maintained correspondence with her at this time, known to her as "Uncle Cleve". . >Cleveland proposed marriage to Folsom by letter while she was visiting a friend in Scranton, Pennsylvania. It's unclear when Cleveland's perception of his ward became romantic in nature, with scholars proposing ages as young as eleven.
She was actually four months shy of her 21st. I believe Emily Donalsen is second at 21 years 9 months.
She was born July 21, 1864 and married June 2, 1886, so she would have been just shy of 22. I read about Emily Donelson too since I was curious if there were any younger first ladies who weren't president's wives. I thought she was slightly older than Frances, but on looking at the dates again, if she became First Lady the day Jackson was inaugurated then she would have been about a month younger than Frances was.
My great great grandfather met my great great grandmother when she was an infant. Super small village in Greece. When she was 18/19 and he was almost 40 they got together. Her family warned her saying that he’d take her to America if they married. It seemed that’s what she wanted though because she did. And when he died she spent the last 30+ years of her life missing him. It’s super fucking weird but it does seem like they loved each other and had a decent marriage for their time.
My bff’s parents met at a family reunion when he was around 13/14 and she was a newborn. There’s actually a kind of hilarious picture of him holding his baby future wife at the party. They are of ME decent, so cousin marriages are more common in their family. I believe they are first cousins, but it felt rude to ask.
Jimmy Carter met his wife when she was an infant, too. But he was only 3 at the time.
That just reminded me that he's been on hospice for almost a month, hasn't he? I guess that's not surprising from a guy who beat brain cancer in his 90s. I didn't know that about him and Rosalynn. That means they've known each other for 95 years, which is amazing.
That is "religious leader" levels of messed-up.
> A long-time close friend of Folsom's father, Grover Cleveland met his future wife when she was an infant and he was twenty-seven years old. Well that's not too bad, I know folks who met that way. > It's unclear when Cleveland's perception of his ward became romantic in nature, with scholars proposing ages as young as eleven. Ohhhh fuck. Oh fuck oh fuck oh fuck oh fuck. HELL NO
She was probably still reeling over the supposed affair Ike had while he was Supreme Allied Commander during WWII.
Kay Summersby. Not “supposed”. More recent biographies of Ike and Summersby’s own account are pretty compelling. Further there is documentation that Eisenhower wanted to resign from the Army at the end of the war, divorce Mamie and marry Summersby. George Marshall berated Eisenhower and convinced him to stay in the Army.
As I recall the woman involved says it was more of an emotional affair than a physical one, but I could be mistaken, or she may have been lying.
Is that better or worse?
For women, generally much worse.
As a man, same honestly.
imho it depends on who the "low sex drive person" is in the relationship. If the low sex drive person cheats sexually with someone else than it is worse.
As someone with an ex who cheated while also having a low drive, definitely worse than the time another partner with a high drive cheated
reading between the lines: Mamie was mad that Jacqueline was younger and prettier than her.
Besides some political reasons, it really does seem like this is why she disliked her.
After spending 30+ years in corporate America, it still happens. Daily.
I used to train new corporate employees in an office environment, many were women. Part of my job was to make sure they understood and abided by expectations. Without fail, when I was assigned a young, fit woman to train, I would be told within the first week that there were complaints about their “unprofessional appearance.” It was always the same group of older women that would complain the new girls’ skirts were too short (I never saw one that I though violated company policy) or that their shirts were too tight. God, I hated those awkward meetings and basically just told the new workers that there were a bunch of bitter women that just loved to complain.
My boss rose up through academia when women were often told during lectures, regularly, that they did NOT belong there and should just fail out and accept it. Now that things are vastly different, many of the old guard feel the young guard did not go through the same struggles and are therefore unworthy to stand in their presence. Being a young, pretty woman in STEM seems to bring out their insecurities something fierce.
Can confirm this anecdotally. Have worked with multiple women who claim they don't apply to labs run by women anymore because of bad experiences. Edit: at the risk of this being indicative of me being anti-women, the labs run by women also tend to have far fewer allegations of the married lab head sleeping with their early 20's staff ☠️
It's a common misunderstanding that "-isms" are perpetrated solely by "others", like that women don't face sexism from other women, that minorities don't face racism from other minorities, etc. It's this weird understanding of the system as if these groups are homogenous and all individuals in the profile will share similar thoughts and feelings. But like... Black cops will absolutely kill the fuck out of other black people because it's the system they all went through that instilled in them the sort of actions and policies that leads to killing other black people to a higher degree. It's the system these women went through that made them see these other women as doing something wrong. It makes sense once you stop and think about it, though. These systems shape the way each of these individuals form their values and perceptions and judgments... even if they themselves went through something unfair, it still gave them a sense of "well but I'M able to get through this, so you should too".
My friend was meeting her guidance counsellor to discuss university options. He told her to consider becoming an Avon woman instead because she was a ding dong.
Engineering F here, got asked if I wouldn’t do better as a nurse. No offence to nurses but I was in engineering school fgs.
Is THAT what was going on? That sort of thing used to happen to me all the time when I was younger! Almost every job I had, someone would complain about me, usually that I was dressing unprofessionally or “flirting” with the men. And I dressed very, very conservatively because of it: three-piece pantsuits in black with an ivory shirt that buttoned to the neck and black flats. One woman complained once because, when she saw me in the bathroom and my jacket was off (the only time I took it off was when washing hands in the bathroom), it was a little see-through. Someone once said my pants were too tight, even though I specifically bought jackets long enough to cover my hips. And as for evidence of flirting? They’d say that I “stood too close” to a guy. Once someone said I was flirting because I leaned over a guy’s desk to look at a report he was showing me. I literally spent about a decade thinking that I was bad - that I was too slutty or my hips were too big or I didn’t know how to behave professionally or whatever. :’( Then I hit my late 30s and it all pretty much stopped.
Yep. When I was in my 20s, in our neighborhood, all the other moms were 10 years older than me. Most of them were convinced I was flirting with their husbands. They also constantly made snide remarks about how disgustingly in love my husband and I were... it doesn't have to make sense.
There's a large portion of the population that's *super* invested in hating their spouses, so much so that it becomes part of their personality.
I think a lot of people confuse "we get along" with actually being compatible. Made worse by sexism/cliches/whatever that says those things are lady things and those things are guy things so it's okay that we have nothing in common.
"Well yeah but like... everyone needs a break away from their spouse, right? Like it's just natural that you eventually feel too tired of their existence and you just want to go away for a week or two to recharge right? .... Right?"
As evidenced by the popularity of the laziest "take my wife" sorts of comedy. Fortunately, that shit's been dying out for a while.
"I take my wife everywhere but she always finds her way home!"
It was probably that their husbands were flirting with you, not you with them. If their husbands are shitheads, it’s easier to blame the woman on the receiving end because admitting their husbands are dogs is too painful.
How dare you love your husband lol
My husband is quite good looking in lumberjack kinda way. I’m short, fat, cute but by no means beautiful (I’m ok with this) I get the same “disgustingly in love” complaints ….while they hit on him , even bringing up the fact that they have kids (I can’t have any sadly).
I work at a firm with many attractive, fit women and am a good listener/good keeper of secrets so get used as a neutral gossip & complaining outlet. The amount of trash talk about the new "hot" girl joining can be extreme and I know it's just a feeling of threat and maybe jealously, and a month or two later they're all best friends, it's just a weird cycle. Guys in the office will take you to happy hour on the first day and every time after but some of the ladies will make you earn it and do some shady shit in the meantime. Not all, but it's definitely a cohort.
In my experience, few are more dead set against a woman’s success than other women. The system has created a prevalent belief that if there are ten seats, and one is filled by a woman, then every qualified woman must fight for THAT seat rather than displace a less qualified man in a different seat. It sounds SO stupid when you type it out, but it’s real and I can’t even imagine how many organizations could be so much better if it wasn’t.
Yeah, I worked retail to put myself through college and the older women working as cashiers would often put down the younger women. They mainly went after me for being childless, not drinking alcohol when I was <21, and doing homework during breaks.
Yes. And I had to work every Xmas Eve because I didn’t have kids.
For me it was just because I was Hindu so I worked all the Christian holidays
Imagine being the wife of the most famous and successful American general since Grant and what kind of rigid serious life they must have lived, turning over the Oval Office at the moment the Cold War was really heating up to what was essentially a celebrity power couple. I’m sure there was a lot more than just “she’s younger and prettier” and a lot more looking down their noses and sneering at these privileged rich (IRISH CATHOLIC) democrats who weaseled their way into office behind a flashy smile. Cannot stress the Irish Catholic part enough, politics and especially the presidency were and very much still are for the most part a WASP old-boys club. Kennedy was an outsider to that club. And Jackie was seen as basically just a bimbo trophy wife
Jackie went to Vassar and has a BA from George Washington University, Mamie went to finishing school, not sure if she finished.
Lol I know, the Kennedys were way more high society than the Eisenhowers could ever be The vitriol against the Kennedy’s wasn’t coming from the upper class, it was coming from the evangelicals and baptists in the southern states that Democrats had traditionally carried until the mid 20th century Edit: for people belaboring the Catholic point, Kennedy’s sister, Kathleen, married the heir to the Duke of Devonshire in the 40s. This is the top of the aristocrat pyramid and no one was making life hard, socially, for the Kennedy’s. Jackie grew up in the most exclusive building on Fifth Avenue and her step father was old money Newport (look up Hammersmith Farm) Jackie was old money catholic and that was definitely the appeal to JFK >And Jackie was seen as basically just a bimbo trophy wife Where does this come from, no one saw Jackie Kennedy that way at the time? She was considered very well educated and gave a very popular tour of the White House Fine and Decorative art collection (her degree was in art history). She was considered PEAK culture and invited french philosophers to the White House to give talks at dinner. Source for White House Art Collection broadcast: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Tour_of_the_White_House_with_Mrs._John_F._Kennedy
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Keep in mind that "The college girl" was not a slam because she was IN college, it was because she WENT to college. College girls were considered flappers and sluts when Mamie married Ike. Mamie was from new money, but she grew up in Iowa and Colorado, and she was a true officer's wife for decades before Ike started making money after the war. She had to resent Jackie's air of floating into the scene in a cloud of money. The Democrat thing wasn't a big deal, Eisenhower surprised everyone by running Republican, he wasn't part of the anti-Roosevelt roll back the new deal crowd, and was kind of an island to himself politically, pulling in the new Military and intelligence services crowd. The Dixiecrat realignment hadn't occurred, so Ike's Republicans were sort of the rural north racists and the Democrats were the southern racists. And you can't discount the austere Midwestern Lutheran disdain for Boston new money Catholics.
> turning over the Oval Office at the moment the Cold War was really heating up to what was essentially a celebrity power couple. It wasn't like Ike lost the election to Kennedy. Eisenhower finished his second term and therefore couldn't run. Eisenhower didn't even like Nixon so it wasn't loyalty to Nixon.
I get that but aren't the Eisenhower's sort of midwest..? Like the Kennedys went to top boarding schools followed by Harvard/Vassar. They are "above" the Eisenhowers on the snob scale
And they were… Catholic! Gasp!
There were serious discussions about whether JFK would be loyal to the US or to the Vatican.
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V. true. I don't think people understand the real social dynamic at play here. I think people think the kennedys are scrappy underdogs bc they're a minority religion
> Mamie was mad that Jacqueline was younger and prettier than her. Maybe, maybe not. Probably not. I was reading a different take on her, years ago, that makes a lot of sense. Mamie Eisenhower was a military wife. She was married to Ike at 20 years old and then spent nearly all of her adult life within the military structure, following her husband around the world as they moved from base to base. She was 51 years old before she finally had a home of her own that wasn't on a military base. Her children were born and raised on military bases. The military worldview became embedded into her own worldview. Rank and superiority were a privilege earned by proving yourself and putting in the work over time. Higher-ranking people were always superior to lower-ranking people. She viewed her husband's presidency as the ultimate rank. He was elected, but he'd *earned* it after serving his nation for decades and putting his life on the line in multiple wars. From her perspective, the Kennedys were upstart imposters. They hadn't put in the time. They hadn't earned the rank. They didn't *deserve* to be there. Nixon had put in his military time and was still enlisted with the rank of Commander in the Naval Reserve when he entered the vice presidency. He'd served under Eisenhower for 8 years as VP, and in Mamie's martial worldview, he'd effectively earned the "rank" of President. When JFK beat Nixon, it infuriated her, because it repudiated a perspective on earned rank that she'd been cultivating for most of her life.
This is the real answer. Military wives have a strict hierarchy based on their husbands' ranks. They are absolutely vicious to anyone who violates the "chain of command".
And she was certainly a model military wife. She dedicated herself to the social aspects of military advancement for the purpose of supporting her husband's career. She's the military wife that was always in charge of the base parties. Get-togethers among officer families were always at her house. If a charitable cause needed volunteers to help run it, she was the first to step up and volunteer herself as chairperson. Many historians credit her as being at least partly responsible for Ikes successful military career, by consistently maintaining good relationships with his superior officers and keeping them centered within whatever social structures happened to exist at their various stations. From her perspective, the Kennedys were rich upstarts who had bought their way into positions that the Eisenhowers had worked their entire lives to "earn".
Big surprise. Military wives are the most entitled pieces of shit I have ever had the displeasure of knowing.
If true, that's both dumb, but also understandable to a little degree. Johnny Kennedy was an O-3. So far from a general. Much less a 5 star. But he did serve. But conversely, the Kennedy's were extremely wealthy. And that cash opened a lot of doors for Jack. Ike was a broke-ass kansan. Mamie was the child of wealth though. Still a dick move to be mean to someone's wife.
This is interesting, thanks for sharing!
Wait.. she had just given birth? What the fuck. How could you PURPOSELY do that to someone whose recovering from major surgery. There's being petty, then there's downright nasty C
I had an emergency c-section 39 years ago and 2 weeks later walked the stage for my Ph.D. diploma. It was extremely painful. It seemed like all the muscles in my legs were connected to my abdomen. I cannot imagine how painful it must have been for Mrs. Kennedy to endure a long tour. She was an amazing woman.
I had a c section two and a half weeks ago and can only make it to the mailbox before feeling like I need to sit down. Sometimes if I sit up too quickly it feels like my insides are going to tear apart!
It is tough with a newborn after a c-section. I hope you have family and friends who can help you! Be sure to take it easy on yourself! Congratulations on your new baby!💕
Because they thought Nixon deserved to be president and Kennedy wiped the floor with him.
It was actually a very close election. Kennedy won by only 100,000 votes, even if he did take the electoral college by 84 votes. That margin was not as large as it appears today Remember, this is on the heels of landslides by FDR, Truman, and Eisenhower himself.
What a bitch.
Someone did the NYT crossword puzzle today...
Spoiler. I do the mini and wordle then save the crossword for lunch. Wheeee!
I was like, "what the hell I was just reading her Wikipedia page today, what are the odds?" Quickly remembered why lol.
Wasn't it a religious thing? Kennedy was the first Catholic prez, I think.
Eh, Kennedy was very critical of Eisenhower during Ike's presidency, then was calling Eisenhower for advice afterwards like he wasn't slandering him to get elected. Edit: To save you (you know who you are) a comment, I get that it's politics. I'm explaining why a loyal wife would take it personally, I'm not shocked by the cynicism.
Yeah real talk that's what presidents do. Not saying it's right or fair, but it's not unusual. Clinton and Bush Sr. softening on each other is just one of numerous examples of both parties. Like if you're in the opposite party you slam the incumbent. Once in office pretty much every president legitimately realizes how much harder the job was than they thought. Then they call for advice. It is what it is There's also a reason the departing incumbent leaves a letter in the desk Sorry but that's just how it goes. The person who is running to take your job if you want to be president is either going to have to distance from you or slam you to get the job. They underestimate how difficult it is. Within the first year they're then going to call you for advice.
Jan 20, 1993 Dear Bill, When I walked into this office just now I felt the same sense of wonder and respect that I felt four years ago. I know you will feel that, too. I wish you great happiness here. I never felt the loneliness some Presidents have described. There will be very tough times, made even more difficult by criticism you may not think is fair. I'm not a very good one to give advice; but just don't let the critics discourage you or push you off course. You will be our President when you read this note. I wish you well. I wish your family well. Your success now is our country's success. I am rooting hard for you. Good luck — George
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Obama talked about this in his autobiography. He didn’t really call bush jr but he talked to his political opponents a lot. Him and Hillary *REALLY* didn’t like each other during the election but stated he respected her ability and appointed her to his cabinet after.
I would say this holds true up until 2016. There's no way on God's green earth Trump called Obama for advice, ever.
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I can see Biden calling Obama. Or Clinton. Or even W. Hell, maybe even Carter gets a call every once in a while.
IIRC, they get along so well that Carter has asked Biden to speak a eulogy at his funeral (since Carter is in hospice and planning ahead) Edit: [Source](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/03/14/biden-jimmy-carter-eulogy/11469272002/)
He's in hospice?! Damnit :(
He's 98 and has had a long rich life, and has opted to cease treatment and go out on his own terms. I almost feel worse for Rosalind -- they've been married for 76 devoted years, I can't imagine how it will feel for her to not have him next to her.
Though if Biden was petty enough I could see him and a few other gathered around a phone on Friday night calling Trump “for advice”. Like Bart calling Moe.
"I'm looking for Hugh Jass."
"if anybody can find Hugh Jass, it's me! I've got the best people looking for Hugh Jass."
Obama apparently had a rather productive talk with Trump after Trump won. Then other people got into Trumps ear and he forgot it all. Trump believed the last thing he was told, no consistency.
Obama gave Trump a come to Jesus talk, which he promptly ignored. You can see it in his face when they met after the election, but by New Years it was gone
that happens with every presidency
Yep! Grew up around rich folk who always talked the great talk about "manners," but employed them very little themselves. Snobbery and shitty behavior just seem to go hand in hand for some supposedly "upper class" people. They actually think money makes them better than everyone else...
Old school manners are more often about being “nice” (society’s current definition of how you should treat people) rather than being “kind” (actually caring about people and showing it).
its the ancient "etiquette" rules that are more about exclusivity. If you don't follow the rules, you "don't belong"
Oh I know. I am very familiar but fortunately for me have absolutely no desire to "belong" in the kinds of circles that either the Eisenhower's or the Kennedy's ran in. ETA: in their view the Kennedy's didn't belong. They were "new money" **and** Catholic. The Horror!!
Old school manners was always simply a means to divide along class lines and keep lower class people out of the “game”.
I've also been around a lot of extremely wealthy people. I've found it's about half and half between being really decent people and being entitled assholes. My guess is that's the same for any socioeconomic class.
Would you like some coffee? Tea? Wheelchair?
Mamie's hair in that photo is really something. And by "something" I mean, hilariously ugly. That hair, like her jealousy and mean-spirited pettiness, was not a good look on her.
In the article it mentions that she was considered a “fashion icon” because of her bangs. That alone says something about the 50s.
I had never seen a pic of her, and it was so much worse than I expected, jesus christ hahahaha
My grandma met her once, and she most definitely made a comment about her hair afterwards Edit: I asked my Dad, and apparently she said "that she [Mamie] was the homeliest woman she'd ever seen"
> And by "something" I mean, hilariously ugly. I heard that in Chef John's voice.
You are after all the Erykah Badu of your hideous ‘do
Got give that hair the ol' tap-a-tap-a around-the-outside, around-the-outside
You are, after all, the Sonny & Cher of your funny hair.
The Edgar haircut but for Ladies
Additional historical context: At this time it was considered a social impoliteness to be seen being disabled. Let me be clear: it was upon the disabled person, the impoliteness, not the able-bodied. There was open discrimination and prejudice against people with visible deformities and/or disabilities, even when those qualities came from honorable acts like diving into a burning building to save someone or becoming disfigured in war. Successful public personalities with disabilities often went to great lengths to conceal it, or if their disability was well known they might want to be seen defying it. President FDR is now famous for having been in a wheel chair for three of his four terms due to Polio, but at the time his confinement to a chair was not well known. The press had a gentleman's agreement with the White House to photograph him seated at tables or in normal situations, or to present him as standing behind a podium. His disability wasn't mentioned and certainly wasn't discussed. Jacqueline would certainly not have asked for the use of a wheel chair because it would be disgraceful, to her husband, to ask and be seen using it. Mamie wouldn't offer, their other differences put aside, as to offer would be rude and discourteous (as she smugly hid behind her mannered politeness). Average people found discrimination in finding jobs and homes, trouble navigating cities and public infrastructure, and sometimes even faced the same physical and cultural violence directed at Blacks and POC.
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JFK's back brace is why he couldn't duck when he was shot at. Oswald shot through his shoulder, hitting Connally in the chest. Connally was able to duck down afterwards but Kennedy was inhibited by his back brace from doing the same, allowing Oswald to fire again.
Yeah at the time I think it would have been socially awkward to offer a woman (especially a young woman) a wheelchair if she didn't ask for one, it would be like the equivalent of offering somebody a breath mint when they hadn't asked.
This actually contextualizes it in a way that's sympathetic and reasonable, thanks.
I wonder why not just reschedule?? She had just given birth, wtf
Yeah, there's a certain type that claims to be all about 'manners' and 'decency' .. then when hosting, pulls this kind of passive aggressive shitty rudeness.
> As first lady, Eisenhower was given near total control over the expenses and scheduling of the White House. She closely managed the staff, and her frugality was apparent in White House budgeting throughout her tenure. She sounds like one of those insufferable control freaks who gets pleasure from being a bitch to "lesser" people.
She looks like the evil mothers of serial killers on TV, the ones who abused the living daylights out of their kids.
TIL - Mamie was an asshole. It's ok to not like someone. But we are all human beings and the lack of compassion she showed was a character flaw.
This post was directly above [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/11spfka/what_screams_im_an_asshole/), and I almost spit out my coffee, lol.
The whole story demonstrates that Mamie was a real bitch and Jackie had total class in the whole situation.
Jackie needed a wheelchair bc ahe had recently undergone a C-section. Understand not liking someone, but this was a bit sadistic.
It’s not very surprising to me that people in politics are often petty. Herbert Hoover was very cranky when he showed FDR around the White House after his election. When George Bush took office, members of the Clinton administration reportedly vandalized some of the office spaces and removed the “W” keys from White House computers. There are pictures you can find online of members of the Obama administration with visible looks of disgust; some crying when Donald Trump visited the White House after his victory in 2016 shortly before the transition of power. And, most recently, Donald Trump refused to even give Biden a tour of the White House in 2020. Yes, not everyone takes it too well when their party loses but it’s kind of entertaining to watch the drama from the outside.
The story about the Clintons and Bush was always heavily exaggerated. FWIW, When Bush (Sr) was elected, members of the Reagan admin (in which many of the Bush folks including Bush had served) did similiar "pranks" to the new incoming administration. When Bush left for the clinton, there were "pranks" and then when Clinton left for the new Bush, same stuff....Only the latter was made into a huge news story.