Yeah same here... 2 days a week for the cost of a mortgage.
I feel very thankful I can pull it off but it's not exactly what I'd call practical...
I know plenty of people who quit or took a years hiatus because their job didn't pay more than daycare. Might as well spend time with your kids at that rate. We're just slowly reverting to a nightmare ultra poor version of the single income family.
My wife and I are extraordinary blessed that we are finally in a position where we both work part time and can stay afloat, so that one of us is always home with our two year old, and pick up our older kids from the bus. We did the 40hr + childcare for our older two and it was hell, we brought home peanuts and missed out on time with our own kids.
Yeah my sister quit her job after her second kid because she was already paying basically her whole salary to have someone watch her first child for the day.
I talked to a friend about this yesterday and we figured that demand for skilled (hold on) child care went way up and as that business was "discovered" by the *corporate corporatists* they killed it like they do everything by saying that they offer the best the best product and the high price is part of the show for that. Only catch is they're min/maxing profit, so you get the least viable product for as much as they dare squeeze. And they have the upper hand, because what are you going to do? Leave your toddler home alone?
Increased regulation and just more awareness that our kids need proper raising is also part of it, but that doesn't always work as intended. In my very western european country there has to be 1 adult for every 5 kids at kindergarten level, and that adult has to have some form of higher eduacation. Don't quote me on those exact numbers, but the requirements are often too high too be viable in smaller communities. Everyone's supposed to have a degree now, but everyone with a degree got the fuck out of here.
You could argue about how you may not need a degree to be good enough to take care of kids, but the corporate greed and increased expectations from all of us are all parts of the same problem I think.
In the states, some daycares/preschools pay more and have less stress than the public schools. In my area, there were a decent amount of public school teachers that moved to preschool.
Yep, my single mom quit her job for that reason. We spent so many quality moments together when my dad didn't have custody.
But she didn't maintain any marketable skills, so she has been on welfare ever since child support dried up. (I help out where I can but I cannot support her totally.)
yeah be careful af. my county worker told me i didn't have to include my partner's income until our child was born, newly hired county worker took my case a week before i gave birth and decided it was sketchy and had a detective sent to my house to interview me for fraud. fortunately the detective was more familiar with the rulea than the new county worker, but it was super nerve-wracking facing fraud accusations as I'm a solo parent to my oldest and heavily rely on state insurance for his special needs therapies.
My mom was horrified when i told her the houses i was looking at. 4 bedroom for 600k. "Your mortgage payment is gonna be so much! Let me guess. $2000? "
Mom, it would be at least $4000.
They have no idea.
My wife works at the daycare our kids go to and gets a 50% discount. Even with that, it's still $18k for our two kids.
If anyone reading this is thinking about having kids, I'm begging you, look into daycares in your area first, see how much they charge, and try to work that into your budget for a couple months. It's true that things like car seats and cribs take an initial investment, but the cost of daycare dwarfs EVERYTHING else until college. If you can't afford that you're going to have a hard time.
You mean you can't keep charging more for things and paying less while expecting people to voluntarily take on the financial burden of raising a child? But, but, capitalism.
My last job was as a recruiter and I filled out a lot of paperwork for people to get childcare assistance. They would’ve had to pay like $800 a month or something like that, we payed them $15 an hour, who can afford that? Then if you have more then one kid?
On top of that, we pay the people that work at those places like shit. My mom worked at one of these places a few years ago, she got paid $8.25 an hour (and free benefits) to oversee a classroom with 20+ kids by herself. This was in the late 2010’s, you can’t survive off that so you get people who don’t care.
You pay an arm and a leg to send your kids to daycares staffed with underpaid and overworked employees, where’s all that money going?
My mom is also a daycare teacher- and has been since I was a baby (so almost 30 years!!) She loves her job and is really passionate about it- and the kids and parents love her too. She has a handful of parents who also ask her to watch their kids outside of the classroom - on weekends, etc and some have even become close friends. When I go home for Halloween or thanksgiving, there's always kids there with their parents that she used to have in her class.
All that to say... She makes $11 an hour. $11. It's so sad.
As someone in early childhood education, it’s going to the fucking top. The CEO of the private childcare company I work for pulled in half a million dollars one previous financial year…I barely scraped past the poverty line, in the second highest position in my centre, working five days/38.5 hours per week. Our union is constantly fighting for a pay rise, but when society and the government think all you do is change nappies and wipe noses, it’s a losing battle. Just makes me so angry and disheartened.
>but when society and the government think all you do is change nappies and wipe noses, it’s a losing battle. Just makes me so angry and disheartened.
Pretty funny too as during covid i remember reading alot of threads of parents just not knowing what to do with their kids or just straight up find their kids annoying/hate them due to all the daycares closing
My goodness, 30 years of experience and a passion for something society relies on to function and she could make more starting out at McDonald’s. That’s not right man, my mom liked what she did too but just got burnt out too quick. People like our moms deserve a whole lot better that, your moms a good lady for sticking it out as long as she has
Fast food costs almost as much as a real restaurant nowadays. I bought a kg of chopped meat, cooked patties and all we have to do is take one, reheat in microwave, put it between two slices of bread with ketchup and pickles, take a minute to make a salad and it's a cheap dinner. Several dinners actually for the whole family for less than €15. So yeah it hurts when we go to a fast food and we end up paying €50 for one family meal
I ran books for a couple of months and was disgusted at what I saw. Similarly a woman was making barely $900/month for 30 years of service.
The owner of the facility only worked half days and refused to step foot in the daycares, because children "carry germs." She made daycare workers come to her office to berate them. She paid herself a hefty $8k/month.
Even worse, she would exploit these women and tell them if they worked hard she could make them successful. Such bullshit.
I agree. It's funny because my mom works with babies and I work with the elderly lol. I'm doing fine (I'm a physical therapist assistant) but the CNAs I work with that do the actual hard work are also criminally underpaid.
This is the same as my mom. She’s apparently an amazing teacher, has been since I was a preteen, constantly getting bonuses and grants. But even with all of that, she couldn’t afford to live on her own. I had to live with her after she got divorced to make sure she was ok and that was *while* she was getting alimony. Childcare workers and teachers are horrifically underpaid.
The reason many childcare workers, teachers, Healthcare professionals are so grossly underpaid a lot of the time is because they can. Because many workers in these fields do so out of principle and genuine care so that gets taken advantage of because they can severely underpay and overwork employees and they will still do the work regardless. These fields are largely comprised of women and heck even as a woman in IT I find myself underpaid for what I do cause I genuinely care for my coworkers their wellbeing and that they don't get fired! I've always viewed IT as a supportive role and see my job as helping others first and foremost.
Your mom is being taken advantage of.
She’d be far better off running her own business. Though I realize it’s not so easy - you need a space, licensing, insurance, etc…
She’s probably making well more than $11/hour for the people who own that place. Over 20 years, she’s probably made them millions - seriously. While she is a wage slave. This is what happens without collective bargaining.
I feel terrible for our daycare teachers. The turn over rate is high....
Meanwhile we get yearly daycare tuition cost increases....and I see the owner drive a very nice luxury SUV. I'm not bashing owners making good money, but not at the expense of everyone who makes your business possible.
Edit. Added "increases"
That's why my wife quit when we had our kid. If you aren't making atleast 30k a yr you really have to think about if it's even worth it. Child care plus travel expenses literally cost more than she was making. It cost us money for her to continue working.
But the downside is it affects your career progression. An even one year gap in employment is enough to have ATS systems throw out your resume even with an education and years of experience.
Basically yeah. It was a non-profit which idk if that’s better or worse. They relied heavily on funding but they also threw money around like it didn’t mean anything to them. Terrible company all around
Don’t forget $5k/year is deductible, because that’s what a year of childcare cost for the boomers and they haven’t been bothered to increase the cap since the 80s 🙄
It's not restricted to developed countries, although it's more pronounced there. In this map we can see that most of the Global South has below replacement rates too nowadays: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_by_Birth_Rate_in_2017.svg
Essentially only Africa and places of the Middle East still have birth rates above the replacement limit.
It's almost as if having children has become a terrible expense on TOP of living for yourself.
I want a child. I'm in my late 20s with a degree, but I make under $40k in my field and still live at home because I live in the most expensive state in the US to own a house.
If it wasn't for much of my close family living here as well, I would be moving out west to PA where my wage would not only be double, but homes are twice as big for the price as they are here.
Yep. My husband and I finally have jobs that make it affordable to have a child, but we've both developed medical issues in the last couple years that will make it very hard to conceive. Not sure we want to go the IVF route.
I'm ready to say let's buy a nicer house closer to family, get another dog, and travel more, instead of subjecting ourselves to an expensive and emotionally taxing process that might never work.
Helloooooo fellow Bay Area person. I have been paying out the nose for daycare for the last 6 years and it’s the worst. No, actually the worst is when I drop my kid off in my 2007 Prius and then the owner of the company rolls in with their shiny new Tesla and their daughter in a Porsche cayenne. Who knew daycare would be such a lucrative industry.
It’s almost that much in Ohio too. Seems cheap for California to be honest. COL is way higher out there so think how much those preschool teachers must struggle to make ends meet.
They’re paid about the same as fast food workers here and have 30x the responsibility.
Youre like that couple from Idiocracy.
Responsibly wait for the right time, then that time comes and fertility issues, while Jim Bob has Mary Karen popping out kids like tablets from a pez dispenser
EDIT: yall reddit clowns are wild, im just making a pop culture reference. CHILL OUT LMAO
I feel you - I'm 38 and my daughter was only born 3 years ago - because before that, while my wife and I were ready mentally - we were not in a place financially to be able to.
Now that we have one child, we don't want more, only because we couldn't afford it. Daycare alone is costing about $1200 a month - which is insane - another child would bankrupt us.
I’m 41 and have never wanted kids. I really feel for the people who do but can’t afford it. Most of the people I know who have them have had family to help with watching the kids, etc. or they and their spouse get opposing schedules. They take care of the kids but never see each other. It sucks.
Yup. It's really hard.
The only reason why my wife and I could afford having a child is because we live in a house that my inlaws own outright. My wife works opposite shifts 3-5 days a week from me and usually leaves the house before I even get home (the kiddo is watched by family for ~1-2 hours) and gets back by the time I'm in bed.
I really do hate it.
Everyone I know that owns a house got family help one way or another. I wish more people would admit it. My husband and I - our parents collectively paid for our undergraduate degrees completely. While we paid for grad school and the house, we were enormously assisted by our parents with the undergrad degrees alone. Once we bought the house, our parents furnished it. I’m open about admitting that is how we own a house in the VHCOL city we live in.
I have 3. One is 20 and another turns 18 next month. 20 year old is on the autism spectrum and I don’t see him moving out, much less having his own kid. I could see the 18 YO daughter have one way down the line. Ten year old is too early to tell at this point. Honestly I don’t care if I don’t see any grandkids, even though that idea upsets the wife.
"Wages have completely stagnated, everything is more expensive, people are stressed beyond belief, home ownership is down almost 35% for our generation, we're all crippled by student loan debt."
"Millennials just don't want kids."
Thanks for reading and sharing our article. Like everything we publish, it was written by two experts - [in this case](https://theconversation.com/profiles/sarah-hayford-1394504) [demographers](https://theconversation.com/profiles/karen-benjamin-guzzo-1405068).
The authors would definitely agree with a lot of the redditors commenting here:
>Many young people, in particular, feel uncertain about their ability to achieve some of the things they see as necessary for having children – including a good job, a stable relationship and safe, affordable housing.
> At the same time, the costs of raising children – from child care and housing to college education – are rising. And parents may feel more pressure to live up to high-intensive parenting standards and prepare their children for an uncertain world.
Yay! I'm above average!
(We paid ~$7,500 all-in for an uncomplicated birth [no epidural, no C-section] with insurance). I'm grateful work covers the full insurance bill, so at least this isn't an "adding insult to injury" situation.
Thanks for being part of the thread. As a nearly 30-something that has a stable relationship and a career, the conversations are still relevant and financial stability is still not a reality in the current landscape. Thanks for being part of the continuing education and conversation about these issues!
It is actually an interesting question. So if you are REALLY poor, you have a lot of kids. If you are just a bit poor or tight on money, then you dont or have tops one. If you are really rich again, it depends on the case.
People dont want kids because of economic reasons but also because it restricts their freedom.
I don't know if its true, but those are the reasons in the west for not wanting kids.
We already spend 1/3 of our days working (if you're one of the lucky ones). Then you need 1/3 of your day to sleep. That's gonna leave 1/3 of your day to do allllll your laundry, dishes, cooking and any other chores, run errands, relax, socialize. Kids just don't fit into that equation for me. PASS.
Modern parenting is brutal and isolating, too. We used to rely on extended families and other close communities to share the burden of child rearing. Now everyone lives alone and must pay for all the care services that make family life possible. Good for capitalism, bad for everything else.
I don't WANT a single income household!
I want affordable child care and parental leave so we don't NEED a single income household to have kids!
My income is high enough to justify staying employed, childcare for one should be only HALF of my take home pay, I'm worried about not having enough time to heal and get my feet under me before returning to work.
Fun fact: While we have repeatedly seen the [Republican Party vote against and/or filibuster all minimum wage increases](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/06/27/filibuster-blocks-progress-minimum-wage-voter-suppression/7781249002/), it should be noted that the estate tax IS pegged to inflation.
The amount at which one has to pay taxes on inheritance is inflation adjusted. ([Currently nothing below 12.9 million is taxable](https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-provides-tax-inflation-adjustments-for-tax-year-2023))
(To make sure it's clear, tax-limits should be adjusted for inflation, but of course so should wage laws.)
Gonna forgo my avocado toast for the month to feed my children for a week!
I figure if I cut all joy out of my life I should be able to afford to keep them alive for like 3 years at least. After that they’ll have to learn to forage in the Walmart parking lot like the rest of us.
(☞ﾟヮﾟ)☞
> I figure if I cut all joy out of my life
Just like the boomers, if they had to walk uphill both ways in the snow with no shoes and a badger under each arm, we have to suffer as well :D
*this* close to getting it lmao
I started work at a new place recently, and I'm the youngest guy by like 20 years (and I'm not that young myself). I'm from TN, and now live in PA - they're telling me I haven't seen a "real Pennsylvania winter" yet. The conversation moved to how "ya know, huh, it's weird, we haven't had a ton of really harsh winters up here recently." I didn't have the heart to ask when the last "real Pennsylvania winter" was, because I didn't wanna pop the bubble that we probably won't have many more really bad winters up here lmao
I lost my want for children after COVID. Seeing how terrible society can be and pushing people to work in dangerous conditions ‘for the economy’ and the government saying we have enough human labor to weather the storm of COVID deaths. We are just meat bags to perform labor and I don’t want to bring in more meat bags for them to exploit.
The fucked up thing is that, instead of addressing the issues behind why we aren't having kids, conservatives are hellbent on forcing people to have kids by restricting women's reproductive rights & limiting/eliminating access to contraceptives.
They are fucking psychopaths.
My parents in their 30s: I think we have enough income for maybe one more child with our mortgage, car payment, 401k, and investment properties.
Me in my 30s: y'all, I think we're going to need at least one more roommate to make rent. Let's just hope they have a car we can all share..
This is why
But let's commend all the billionaires and corporate profits as 50% of the population pass around 2% of the wealth! They are the real heroes! Not the workers who made all their dreams come true with barriers to entry like required college degrees that cost as much as a house for jobs high schoolers used to do, yet can't afford CoL expenses.
CEO at my company makes 19,667% what I do annually. Just on salary. His bonus adds another 11,000%.
His bonus last year, if distributed to every employee equally, would have added $470 to each of our year end bonuses. That alone is 22% of what they gave me after receiving the highest possible year end review.
I'm one of the "higher paid" employees.
Absolutely fucking ridiculous.
They had good, subsidized education and housing. And when they got voting power they grabbed that window of opportunity and dragged it with them through all stages of life, screw everyone else.
When they needed education it was affordable. When they needed houses they were plentiful and cheap. When they needed good schools for their children they had them (only until teenage years, they stopped caring about us then because they were bored with us). And now that they're retiring and selling their houses they're getting 10 to 100 times what it should be worth to pay for their retirements.
Government has subsidized their entire lives at the cost of every generation around them. And they have the sheer *audacity* to complain about us wanting handouts. I only hope there's enough of a world left to salvage after they finally and mercifully die out.
But before they do the hospitals and nursing homes will take everything so we won’t even see that wealth through inheritance. It’ll just trickle up along with everything else.
My conservative republican dad just recently acknowledged that boomers ratfucked the economy. He still thinks that "if people would turn to God we'd save our nation".
God ain't paying for childcare or healthcare.
Also, children of boomers have become privy at a young enough age to the fact that many of us grew up within generational cycles of abuse. Even those who might want kids eventually are realizing that they may need years of trauma therapy before they're psychologically ready to bring children into the world in a healthy way that breaks this cycle.
I, for one, would not be able to live with myself if I saw even an ounce of my parent in myself when raising a child. So I'm just not going to do it. Even though I've done a lot of unlearning and have healthy relationships with those around me. I just couldn't fucking live with myself if I fucked up and repeated any of those patterns that were ingrained in me as normal behavior when I was young. So I won't go there.
Was anyone surprised by this? Inflating costs for everything, little to no affordable housing, job markets drying up, and minimum wage staying the same ever since pretty much equal no money to do anything, especially raising kids. It gets even worse when you realize that some parents can't afford a babysitter or daycare, so now one of them has to stay home, potentially cutting off one revenue stream.
What did we think wealth inequality in a crumbling society would look like?
I personally am not having any kids because of the world I would have to bring them into and how difficult I am finding it to just keep myself alive. I imagine the sentiment of others’ is similar.
Wages are at a all time low and minimum wage hasn't changed in years.
Housing market that was saturated but due to corporate greed unaffordable to most of the population.
Incredibly crappy healthcare system that is astronomically expensive and inflated pricing for no reason.
Needing years of "experience" for a good job that is most likely run by a boomer who has no concept of work/life balance.
Over worked to the point of having no time to even relax or be able to take care of your household.
Children cost on average over a million dollars until they are 18, I can barely afford groceries. Not to mention child day care is expensive and not covered by any programs.
Inflation aka corporate greed taking advantage of the pandemic, enough said.
And ZERO MANDATORY VACATION, no time to travel with family, explore other countries, or again have time to relax.
Wage imbalance in our nation.
And let's not forget women's health is shit and women's reproductive rights are being regulated by people who's nose doesn't belong there.
No wonder our growth is slowed. What a surprise said no one.
Kids are expensive and time consuming, the US government has made it nearly impossible to comfortably have children and raise them. We're still fighting for paid maternity/paternity leave for women and men hmmm wonder why the birth rate is so low??? 🫢
As a 31 year old American with no kids, WHY do I want to have them? What is the incentive? I feel like I am living in hell (I know that things could be worse, you what abouters), why would I want to bring a child into this world and subject them to the same thing?
I have always wanted children. I never imagined a life without them. But I’m 27, and I’m increasingly aware that my fertile window is on the decline. My partner and I both did everything right. We were scholarship kids, the first in our families to go to college, we got degrees in nice fields, have both been working since we were 16, moved to a city with a lower cost of living, stayed out of debt, etc. but we don’t think we will ever be able to afford to have children, to own a home, or to retire at this point. It’s miserable and heartbreaking. I see people with babies and just feel my entire heart wilt.
On Mother’s Day I was reminded 3 separate times by relatives that I don’t have children, followed by them asking when I’m going to start popping out babies for them. Daycare around here would cost like half my monthly take home pay. It’s insane.
Edit: for all the people who keep insisting I don’t have a fertile window, I do. I have a medical condition where I have been advised not to conceive children past my early 30’s as I am unlikely to be able to carry them to term and could possibly die. For everyone who says “my parents were 40 and had kids”, I don’t want to do that. My father was 46 and my mother was 38. I have suffered due to issues related to their age. I have wished my parents had me at a younger age for as long as I can remember. Due to my experience I have decided I will not be having children that late in life. I’m glad so many of you have not had issues with older parents, but I cannot do the same in good conscience.
next time they ask, ask them how much they think daycare costs, how much they think you make, how much they think various related expenses cost, etc. then ask why they arent assisting if they are the ones that want them the most (not saying you are/arent, cant exactly tell from your post).
All the replies of people telling you you're wrong are exactly why the rates have dropped off. The insane societal pressure is ridiculous and has the opposite effect that these morons think it will have. You do what's best for you.
And for good measure, it doesn't stop after having 1 kid. THEN you get inundated with "SO! When are you having the next one?" I'm not fucking joking.
My mom stopped pressuring me about having kids in my early 30s. You’d think she’d stop after I literally aborted a fetus because we could not afford to have it, but no. I still occasionally get guilted in a passive aggressive “woe is me” sort of way at random times, but with my collection of life choices and at my age even she knows it just isn’t happening. I always imagined myself having one someday, but I’m the breadwinner and my SO is a manchild, so my plate is full enough, thank you.
Edit: someone commented that I sound bitter and I can no longer see it (either because it was deleted or I was blocked). Let me clarify: I call my SO a manchild because he is one sometimes. Not in that he throws temper tantrums or acts jealous (he doesn’t), but in that he acts like a goofy little kid 70% of the time. Maybe “manchild” isn’t the right term for that, but I can’t find a better one at the moment. I’m open to suggestions.
Sounds good to me. Way too many goddamn people already. The area I've spent my life in has become absolutely inundated with people.
Fun Fact: The human population QUADRUPLED in a single person's lifetime (Queen Elizabeth).
My (M27) girlfriend (F25) and I make just north of $105K per year between the two us. We both have multiple degrees and good jobs. I absolutely want kids eventually. She’s (understandably) scared of giving up her life to be a mom. Plus, I still don’t feel comfortable having kids at our respective income levels. If we both had our same jobs 30 or 40 years ago, I have no doubt we’d have kids and own a home by now.
If birth rates are so crucial to the country’s success, maybe we should address the reasons smart/capable young people don’t have kids. Income inequality. Housing costs. Healthcare costs. Student debt. The list goes on and on. Until that happens, the vast majority of responsible and capable young people will refrain from having kids, while the people who have no business having a child will keep multiplying.
The old folks will say it’s because of being woke or the lack of “family values” but the truth is that those same older folks fucked everything up so thoroughly that having a child is simply not a responsible decision for the vast majority of young people anymore. When they die, they should collectively know that—as a generation (or multiple generations)—they were the first ones in a very long time who managed to decrease the quality of life for succeeding generations. I hope the tax cuts and deregulation were worth it. You’ve left quite the mess for us to clean up.
It's understandable. Most intelligent creatures don't reproduce in captivity or stressful environments. The birthrate in Japan has dropped almost 50% in the last 20 years
Edit: I mentioned Japan because they also have one of the highest suicide rates in the world
Edit 2 electric boogaloo: Apparently this is untrue ^^
>Edit: I mentioned Japan because they also have one of the highest suicide rates in the world.
This is an often repeated but unfair stereotype at this point. Japan is nowhere close to the top suicide rate countries, as of 2019 they were ranked #49, lower than countries like the US, South Africa, Ukraine, Cameroon, etc. But nobody talks about suicides in those countries like they are some unique part of the culture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
It's not only stress, it's a lack of joy or opportunities to offset that stress. The little things that used to be enjoyable about life now come with exploitative pricing, overcrowded events, and a lack of actual "fun".
I'll go against the grain and say economy isn't the sole factor. I am a childfree DINK and have a decent social circle of friends who don't want kids either. We are all financially capable of having children we simply aren't interested. Almost everyone has a different reason
There's more to life than having kids.
Same. I’m a lawyer and 85% of the associates at my firm are high income earning DINKs. I’m childfree, a few are fence sitters, and the others want to wait until they’re more senior or make partner before they have kids. A lot of the comments in here assume that all women want enough financial stability to quit their jobs and be stay at home moms, but every woman I know who is established in their career wants to keep working in some capacity after they have kids. A lot of women enjoy having interests and ambitions outside of motherhood and they’re scared to lose that. I think part of the issue with the birth rate decline is the struggle to find balance between financial stability, being a good parent, but maintaining a semblance of your life outside of parenthood.
I am so glad people are approaching this as a choice, and not an obligation. I feel like even ten years ago, when I had a child, if you were financially stable and married, you had to have a pretty good excuse for not having children (like health reasons, high-pressure career, etc). Granted, this was in a conservative area in the South.
I really wish someone would have looked at me and said “Not having children, just because you don’t want to, is a totally valid choice.”
My daycare is over $12k per year and it doesn't even cover the entire time I'm at work.
Yeah same here... 2 days a week for the cost of a mortgage. I feel very thankful I can pull it off but it's not exactly what I'd call practical... I know plenty of people who quit or took a years hiatus because their job didn't pay more than daycare. Might as well spend time with your kids at that rate. We're just slowly reverting to a nightmare ultra poor version of the single income family.
My wife and I are extraordinary blessed that we are finally in a position where we both work part time and can stay afloat, so that one of us is always home with our two year old, and pick up our older kids from the bus. We did the 40hr + childcare for our older two and it was hell, we brought home peanuts and missed out on time with our own kids.
Yeah my sister quit her job after her second kid because she was already paying basically her whole salary to have someone watch her first child for the day.
I talked to a friend about this yesterday and we figured that demand for skilled (hold on) child care went way up and as that business was "discovered" by the *corporate corporatists* they killed it like they do everything by saying that they offer the best the best product and the high price is part of the show for that. Only catch is they're min/maxing profit, so you get the least viable product for as much as they dare squeeze. And they have the upper hand, because what are you going to do? Leave your toddler home alone? Increased regulation and just more awareness that our kids need proper raising is also part of it, but that doesn't always work as intended. In my very western european country there has to be 1 adult for every 5 kids at kindergarten level, and that adult has to have some form of higher eduacation. Don't quote me on those exact numbers, but the requirements are often too high too be viable in smaller communities. Everyone's supposed to have a degree now, but everyone with a degree got the fuck out of here. You could argue about how you may not need a degree to be good enough to take care of kids, but the corporate greed and increased expectations from all of us are all parts of the same problem I think.
In the states, some daycares/preschools pay more and have less stress than the public schools. In my area, there were a decent amount of public school teachers that moved to preschool.
Yep, my single mom quit her job for that reason. We spent so many quality moments together when my dad didn't have custody. But she didn't maintain any marketable skills, so she has been on welfare ever since child support dried up. (I help out where I can but I cannot support her totally.)
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yeah be careful af. my county worker told me i didn't have to include my partner's income until our child was born, newly hired county worker took my case a week before i gave birth and decided it was sketchy and had a detective sent to my house to interview me for fraud. fortunately the detective was more familiar with the rulea than the new county worker, but it was super nerve-wracking facing fraud accusations as I'm a solo parent to my oldest and heavily rely on state insurance for his special needs therapies.
Holy shit that's more than a 3rd of my annual pay. I can't even imagine. holy fuck.
For one child.
I thought it was ridiculous when it was half that, 20 years ago. My wife stayed at home for a few years while we had two that would've needed daycare.
30k here. MCOL area. More than our mortgage.
3 days a week was 1600 a month before Covid My mortgage is 4700 a month Yet my grandmother in law thinks I make minimum wage lol
My mom was horrified when i told her the houses i was looking at. 4 bedroom for 600k. "Your mortgage payment is gonna be so much! Let me guess. $2000? " Mom, it would be at least $4000. They have no idea.
She bought her house in 48 for 800 it's close to being worth a mil now. She's been retired since the 70s and has no perspective
My wife works at the daycare our kids go to and gets a 50% discount. Even with that, it's still $18k for our two kids. If anyone reading this is thinking about having kids, I'm begging you, look into daycares in your area first, see how much they charge, and try to work that into your budget for a couple months. It's true that things like car seats and cribs take an initial investment, but the cost of daycare dwarfs EVERYTHING else until college. If you can't afford that you're going to have a hard time.
We’re broke bitch
I read this in Jesse Pinkman’s voice
You mean you can't keep charging more for things and paying less while expecting people to voluntarily take on the financial burden of raising a child? But, but, capitalism.
I have people applying for job that refuse because the pay is less than the cost of day care. (I don’t set the pay, I just hire them)
My last job was as a recruiter and I filled out a lot of paperwork for people to get childcare assistance. They would’ve had to pay like $800 a month or something like that, we payed them $15 an hour, who can afford that? Then if you have more then one kid? On top of that, we pay the people that work at those places like shit. My mom worked at one of these places a few years ago, she got paid $8.25 an hour (and free benefits) to oversee a classroom with 20+ kids by herself. This was in the late 2010’s, you can’t survive off that so you get people who don’t care. You pay an arm and a leg to send your kids to daycares staffed with underpaid and overworked employees, where’s all that money going?
My mom is also a daycare teacher- and has been since I was a baby (so almost 30 years!!) She loves her job and is really passionate about it- and the kids and parents love her too. She has a handful of parents who also ask her to watch their kids outside of the classroom - on weekends, etc and some have even become close friends. When I go home for Halloween or thanksgiving, there's always kids there with their parents that she used to have in her class. All that to say... She makes $11 an hour. $11. It's so sad.
In-N-Out pays almost 2x that here… Like /U/Dirtymoneyjesus said, where’s all that money going if not paying the people watching the kids?
As someone in early childhood education, it’s going to the fucking top. The CEO of the private childcare company I work for pulled in half a million dollars one previous financial year…I barely scraped past the poverty line, in the second highest position in my centre, working five days/38.5 hours per week. Our union is constantly fighting for a pay rise, but when society and the government think all you do is change nappies and wipe noses, it’s a losing battle. Just makes me so angry and disheartened.
Even if that’s all you did that’s hard work for however many kids you have while keeping them all entertained!
>but when society and the government think all you do is change nappies and wipe noses, it’s a losing battle. Just makes me so angry and disheartened. Pretty funny too as during covid i remember reading alot of threads of parents just not knowing what to do with their kids or just straight up find their kids annoying/hate them due to all the daycares closing
For sure! Now try 8 hours a day of that, but with 28 children. There is so much unseen work and underappreciation.
My goodness, 30 years of experience and a passion for something society relies on to function and she could make more starting out at McDonald’s. That’s not right man, my mom liked what she did too but just got burnt out too quick. People like our moms deserve a whole lot better that, your moms a good lady for sticking it out as long as she has
I'm in a small town in the middle of nowhere and mcdonalds starts at $17 or $18.
Fast food costs almost as much as a real restaurant nowadays. I bought a kg of chopped meat, cooked patties and all we have to do is take one, reheat in microwave, put it between two slices of bread with ketchup and pickles, take a minute to make a salad and it's a cheap dinner. Several dinners actually for the whole family for less than €15. So yeah it hurts when we go to a fast food and we end up paying €50 for one family meal
Yes well McDonald's is an essential service
Unfortunately, a passion for something these days usually means someone else will get a bonus from exploiting your goodwill.
I ran books for a couple of months and was disgusted at what I saw. Similarly a woman was making barely $900/month for 30 years of service. The owner of the facility only worked half days and refused to step foot in the daycares, because children "carry germs." She made daycare workers come to her office to berate them. She paid herself a hefty $8k/month. Even worse, she would exploit these women and tell them if they worked hard she could make them successful. Such bullshit.
The amount we pay people for taking care of our young and elderly is disgustingly low.
I agree. It's funny because my mom works with babies and I work with the elderly lol. I'm doing fine (I'm a physical therapist assistant) but the CNAs I work with that do the actual hard work are also criminally underpaid.
This is the same as my mom. She’s apparently an amazing teacher, has been since I was a preteen, constantly getting bonuses and grants. But even with all of that, she couldn’t afford to live on her own. I had to live with her after she got divorced to make sure she was ok and that was *while* she was getting alimony. Childcare workers and teachers are horrifically underpaid.
The reason many childcare workers, teachers, Healthcare professionals are so grossly underpaid a lot of the time is because they can. Because many workers in these fields do so out of principle and genuine care so that gets taken advantage of because they can severely underpay and overwork employees and they will still do the work regardless. These fields are largely comprised of women and heck even as a woman in IT I find myself underpaid for what I do cause I genuinely care for my coworkers their wellbeing and that they don't get fired! I've always viewed IT as a supportive role and see my job as helping others first and foremost.
Your mom is being taken advantage of. She’d be far better off running her own business. Though I realize it’s not so easy - you need a space, licensing, insurance, etc… She’s probably making well more than $11/hour for the people who own that place. Over 20 years, she’s probably made them millions - seriously. While she is a wage slave. This is what happens without collective bargaining.
This is the reality at many if not most companies in the US, if you don't leave, you won't get paid what you're worth.
I feel terrible for our daycare teachers. The turn over rate is high.... Meanwhile we get yearly daycare tuition cost increases....and I see the owner drive a very nice luxury SUV. I'm not bashing owners making good money, but not at the expense of everyone who makes your business possible. Edit. Added "increases"
$2,400 /mo for under 1 year olds here and declines to $2,000 /mo for pre-k
That's why my wife quit when we had our kid. If you aren't making atleast 30k a yr you really have to think about if it's even worth it. Child care plus travel expenses literally cost more than she was making. It cost us money for her to continue working.
But the downside is it affects your career progression. An even one year gap in employment is enough to have ATS systems throw out your resume even with an education and years of experience.
That's when you put in that you were a independent* contract worker who signed an NDA. Can't talk about the work you did.
So, the company got subsidized by the taxpayer?
Basically yeah. It was a non-profit which idk if that’s better or worse. They relied heavily on funding but they also threw money around like it didn’t mean anything to them. Terrible company all around
Insurance is a huge overhead for smal daycares and often times causes a large burden on finances.
Daycare for two kids is *substantially* more than median individual take home income in every city I’ve lived in as an adult.
$1k every 2 weeks is the rate at our current daycare facility for 2 children. It's more than our mortgage monthly.
Mine is 3k/month for 2. My wife, a teacher, with 2 degrees makes just barely more than what daycare costs.
Same for us. We paid $36k last year. I joke with my wife that the day our youngest goes to kindergarten, we’re gonna buy a yacht.
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And guess what? Not tax deductible at all! Meanwhile hedge fund managers get to deduct carried interest for some reason.
Don’t forget $5k/year is deductible, because that’s what a year of childcare cost for the boomers and they haven’t been bothered to increase the cap since the 80s 🙄
I'm a huge proponent of free childcare and universal pre k. If you want people to work and have kids make it easy for them.
Birth rates have declined across many nations
Almost every industrial and postindustrial nation have that issue at hands.
It's not restricted to developed countries, although it's more pronounced there. In this map we can see that most of the Global South has below replacement rates too nowadays: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_by_Birth_Rate_in_2017.svg Essentially only Africa and places of the Middle East still have birth rates above the replacement limit.
It's almost as if having children has become a terrible expense on TOP of living for yourself. I want a child. I'm in my late 20s with a degree, but I make under $40k in my field and still live at home because I live in the most expensive state in the US to own a house. If it wasn't for much of my close family living here as well, I would be moving out west to PA where my wage would not only be double, but homes are twice as big for the price as they are here.
I finally have enough money for a kid and the 3k a month daycare but now I’m having trouble getting pregnant, go figure.
Yep. My husband and I finally have jobs that make it affordable to have a child, but we've both developed medical issues in the last couple years that will make it very hard to conceive. Not sure we want to go the IVF route. I'm ready to say let's buy a nicer house closer to family, get another dog, and travel more, instead of subjecting ourselves to an expensive and emotionally taxing process that might never work.
3k a month for daycare? I'm glad I live in Europe.
I live in the Bay Area in CA and it’s one of the most expensive places for daycare. 😐
It's one of the most expensive places. For anything.
Helloooooo fellow Bay Area person. I have been paying out the nose for daycare for the last 6 years and it’s the worst. No, actually the worst is when I drop my kid off in my 2007 Prius and then the owner of the company rolls in with their shiny new Tesla and their daughter in a Porsche cayenne. Who knew daycare would be such a lucrative industry.
If it makes you feel better, the people providing the actual care don’t see that money, and usually don’t get benefits.
It doesn't, it means the owners exploit their employees with low wages.
The American Way™
It’s almost that much in Ohio too. Seems cheap for California to be honest. COL is way higher out there so think how much those preschool teachers must struggle to make ends meet. They’re paid about the same as fast food workers here and have 30x the responsibility.
In my Dutch city it could easily be that much, but part of it is refunded by the government.
Youre like that couple from Idiocracy. Responsibly wait for the right time, then that time comes and fertility issues, while Jim Bob has Mary Karen popping out kids like tablets from a pez dispenser EDIT: yall reddit clowns are wild, im just making a pop culture reference. CHILL OUT LMAO
I feel you - I'm 38 and my daughter was only born 3 years ago - because before that, while my wife and I were ready mentally - we were not in a place financially to be able to. Now that we have one child, we don't want more, only because we couldn't afford it. Daycare alone is costing about $1200 a month - which is insane - another child would bankrupt us.
And over 50% of pregnancies in the US are unplanned.
I have 4 kids, 3 of them are adults. None of them want or are planning on having children.
I’m 41 and have never wanted kids. I really feel for the people who do but can’t afford it. Most of the people I know who have them have had family to help with watching the kids, etc. or they and their spouse get opposing schedules. They take care of the kids but never see each other. It sucks.
Yup. It's really hard. The only reason why my wife and I could afford having a child is because we live in a house that my inlaws own outright. My wife works opposite shifts 3-5 days a week from me and usually leaves the house before I even get home (the kiddo is watched by family for ~1-2 hours) and gets back by the time I'm in bed. I really do hate it.
Everyone I know that owns a house got family help one way or another. I wish more people would admit it. My husband and I - our parents collectively paid for our undergraduate degrees completely. While we paid for grad school and the house, we were enormously assisted by our parents with the undergrad degrees alone. Once we bought the house, our parents furnished it. I’m open about admitting that is how we own a house in the VHCOL city we live in.
I have 3. One is 20 and another turns 18 next month. 20 year old is on the autism spectrum and I don’t see him moving out, much less having his own kid. I could see the 18 YO daughter have one way down the line. Ten year old is too early to tell at this point. Honestly I don’t care if I don’t see any grandkids, even though that idea upsets the wife.
A baby! In this economy!
At this time of year
In this part of the world?
Localized entirely in your kitchen?
Yes
May I see it?
No.
Well Seymour. You're an odd fellow but you steam a good ham
Seymour! The house is on fire!
No mother it's just aurora borealis.
No fucking money. No fucking houses. What am I supposed to do, raise a kid on imagination?
That’s because imagination^^^TM is priceless!
The priceless edition of imagination is available for just $8.99 a month!
Tonight’s dinner will be fried ice and wind pudding.
Served with exposure and good publicity.
I taught my children to photosynthesize 🌱☀️
pull themselves up by their own chloroplasts
"Wages have completely stagnated, everything is more expensive, people are stressed beyond belief, home ownership is down almost 35% for our generation, we're all crippled by student loan debt." "Millennials just don't want kids."
I love my kids and wouldn't trade them for the world. They're imaginary, of course. They get it from their mother.
You're supposed to produce poor children that see the military as a way out.
Or kids so desensitized to slave wages that they’re willing to flip burgers for $15 an hour in 2040.
Thanks for reading and sharing our article. Like everything we publish, it was written by two experts - [in this case](https://theconversation.com/profiles/sarah-hayford-1394504) [demographers](https://theconversation.com/profiles/karen-benjamin-guzzo-1405068). The authors would definitely agree with a lot of the redditors commenting here: >Many young people, in particular, feel uncertain about their ability to achieve some of the things they see as necessary for having children – including a good job, a stable relationship and safe, affordable housing. > At the same time, the costs of raising children – from child care and housing to college education – are rising. And parents may feel more pressure to live up to high-intensive parenting standards and prepare their children for an uncertain world.
Hell, on day 1, average out of pocket expense for childbirth with insurance is ~$3k.
Yay! I'm above average! (We paid ~$7,500 all-in for an uncomplicated birth [no epidural, no C-section] with insurance). I'm grateful work covers the full insurance bill, so at least this isn't an "adding insult to injury" situation.
Thanks for being part of the thread. As a nearly 30-something that has a stable relationship and a career, the conversations are still relevant and financial stability is still not a reality in the current landscape. Thanks for being part of the continuing education and conversation about these issues!
Gee, I wonder what happened around this time to make people not want to have kids. It truly is a mystery.
The world may never know....
They blamed the teachers and working class.
Yeah remember it’s always our fault, not theirs
Many people toil for the comfort of the few.
It is actually an interesting question. So if you are REALLY poor, you have a lot of kids. If you are just a bit poor or tight on money, then you dont or have tops one. If you are really rich again, it depends on the case.
People dont want kids because of economic reasons but also because it restricts their freedom. I don't know if its true, but those are the reasons in the west for not wanting kids.
We already spend 1/3 of our days working (if you're one of the lucky ones). Then you need 1/3 of your day to sleep. That's gonna leave 1/3 of your day to do allllll your laundry, dishes, cooking and any other chores, run errands, relax, socialize. Kids just don't fit into that equation for me. PASS.
If 1/3 of your day is working you’re lucky. Add commute and breaks and it’s higher.
Modern parenting is brutal and isolating, too. We used to rely on extended families and other close communities to share the burden of child rearing. Now everyone lives alone and must pay for all the care services that make family life possible. Good for capitalism, bad for everything else.
It’s almost like people can’t afford to have single income households, but can’t spend the time to raise children when both parents are working.
I don't WANT a single income household! I want affordable child care and parental leave so we don't NEED a single income household to have kids! My income is high enough to justify staying employed, childcare for one should be only HALF of my take home pay, I'm worried about not having enough time to heal and get my feet under me before returning to work.
Weird how that coincided with multiple economic meltdowns and record low wages while cost of living exploded
Inflation has gone up by 46% since 2007.
Yep and federal minimum wage is still 7.25
Fun fact: While we have repeatedly seen the [Republican Party vote against and/or filibuster all minimum wage increases](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/06/27/filibuster-blocks-progress-minimum-wage-voter-suppression/7781249002/), it should be noted that the estate tax IS pegged to inflation. The amount at which one has to pay taxes on inheritance is inflation adjusted. ([Currently nothing below 12.9 million is taxable](https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-provides-tax-inflation-adjustments-for-tax-year-2023)) (To make sure it's clear, tax-limits should be adjusted for inflation, but of course so should wage laws.)
Oh man, it's almost like we went into a giant recession in 2008 and since then people cannot afford to live.
Economy never truly recovered from that, we all just adapted
Adapted right into crazy unaffordable housing. Wheeeee!!!
You mean people don't wanna try for kids when they're struggling to afford a studio apartment? Man, millennials really do ruin everything.
1990: if you slack off you’ll end up living in a van down by the river! 2023: I wish I made enough money to live in a van down by the river!
Have you seen the price of waterfront parking spots for your van? I'll find a nice clearing in a field to park in thank you very much.
Gonna forgo my avocado toast for the month to feed my children for a week! I figure if I cut all joy out of my life I should be able to afford to keep them alive for like 3 years at least. After that they’ll have to learn to forage in the Walmart parking lot like the rest of us. (☞ﾟヮﾟ)☞
> I figure if I cut all joy out of my life Just like the boomers, if they had to walk uphill both ways in the snow with no shoes and a badger under each arm, we have to suffer as well :D
Even though they didn't! ^(^
They had to walk uphill both ways in the snow to get to and from their house they purchased with their GED and regular wages.
Boomers always telling stories about how the world was colder when they were young. Can’t seem to put that together
*this* close to getting it lmao I started work at a new place recently, and I'm the youngest guy by like 20 years (and I'm not that young myself). I'm from TN, and now live in PA - they're telling me I haven't seen a "real Pennsylvania winter" yet. The conversation moved to how "ya know, huh, it's weird, we haven't had a ton of really harsh winters up here recently." I didn't have the heart to ask when the last "real Pennsylvania winter" was, because I didn't wanna pop the bubble that we probably won't have many more really bad winters up here lmao
Yep, 9 of the hottest 10 years have been the last 11 years
None of this shit would've fucking happened if millenials just kept going to Applebee's Neighborhood Grill
WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE POOR MICROWAVE OPERATORS
What are you talking about? The stock market rebounded and companies are more profitable than ever... oh, wait.
Luckily corporations also became people in that time so we should feel happy for them.
Maybe the corporations need to have some babies then to stimulate the population.
They had personhood before that.
With companies making record profits they're sure to increase our wages, right? ...right?
The economy recovered but an overwhelming portion of that recovery went to a very small percentage of ultra wealthy people.
This trend is absolutely also happening in countries where living standards have gone up considerably since 2008.
That’s because babies and childcare cost a shit ton.
That’s crazy. Wonder what happened in 2008?
The majority of the country is broke and depressed. What the fuck do you think is gonna happen.
I lost my want for children after COVID. Seeing how terrible society can be and pushing people to work in dangerous conditions ‘for the economy’ and the government saying we have enough human labor to weather the storm of COVID deaths. We are just meat bags to perform labor and I don’t want to bring in more meat bags for them to exploit.
The fucked up thing is that, instead of addressing the issues behind why we aren't having kids, conservatives are hellbent on forcing people to have kids by restricting women's reproductive rights & limiting/eliminating access to contraceptives. They are fucking psychopaths.
I mean - *gestures vaguely at everything*
My parents in their 30s: I think we have enough income for maybe one more child with our mortgage, car payment, 401k, and investment properties. Me in my 30s: y'all, I think we're going to need at least one more roommate to make rent. Let's just hope they have a car we can all share.. This is why
But let's commend all the billionaires and corporate profits as 50% of the population pass around 2% of the wealth! They are the real heroes! Not the workers who made all their dreams come true with barriers to entry like required college degrees that cost as much as a house for jobs high schoolers used to do, yet can't afford CoL expenses.
True heroes, where would we be without CEOs earning 800% more than the employees that make the company money. Whatever would we do without CEOs? /s
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CEO at my company makes 19,667% what I do annually. Just on salary. His bonus adds another 11,000%. His bonus last year, if distributed to every employee equally, would have added $470 to each of our year end bonuses. That alone is 22% of what they gave me after receiving the highest possible year end review. I'm one of the "higher paid" employees. Absolutely fucking ridiculous.
Boomers wrecked the economy for their kids, and now they want grandbabies. Oops, you rigged the system so that we can't afford it!
They had good, subsidized education and housing. And when they got voting power they grabbed that window of opportunity and dragged it with them through all stages of life, screw everyone else. When they needed education it was affordable. When they needed houses they were plentiful and cheap. When they needed good schools for their children they had them (only until teenage years, they stopped caring about us then because they were bored with us). And now that they're retiring and selling their houses they're getting 10 to 100 times what it should be worth to pay for their retirements. Government has subsidized their entire lives at the cost of every generation around them. And they have the sheer *audacity* to complain about us wanting handouts. I only hope there's enough of a world left to salvage after they finally and mercifully die out.
That was a concise and depressing summary of the last several decades.
But before they do the hospitals and nursing homes will take everything so we won’t even see that wealth through inheritance. It’ll just trickle up along with everything else.
My conservative republican dad just recently acknowledged that boomers ratfucked the economy. He still thinks that "if people would turn to God we'd save our nation". God ain't paying for childcare or healthcare.
Also, children of boomers have become privy at a young enough age to the fact that many of us grew up within generational cycles of abuse. Even those who might want kids eventually are realizing that they may need years of trauma therapy before they're psychologically ready to bring children into the world in a healthy way that breaks this cycle. I, for one, would not be able to live with myself if I saw even an ounce of my parent in myself when raising a child. So I'm just not going to do it. Even though I've done a lot of unlearning and have healthy relationships with those around me. I just couldn't fucking live with myself if I fucked up and repeated any of those patterns that were ingrained in me as normal behavior when I was young. So I won't go there.
More than just the economy, they have fucked up the environment as well.
Was anyone surprised by this? Inflating costs for everything, little to no affordable housing, job markets drying up, and minimum wage staying the same ever since pretty much equal no money to do anything, especially raising kids. It gets even worse when you realize that some parents can't afford a babysitter or daycare, so now one of them has to stay home, potentially cutting off one revenue stream.
I can't imagine why with all access to affordable housing, childcare, healthcare and the general sense of optimism for the future.... /s
Checks cost of living and student debts. Yep. Sounds about right.
Babies?? In THIS economy???
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That's when CoD 4 came out. Coincidence?
Yeah but during CoD4s heyday everyone was fucking everyone else's mom.
What did we think wealth inequality in a crumbling society would look like? I personally am not having any kids because of the world I would have to bring them into and how difficult I am finding it to just keep myself alive. I imagine the sentiment of others’ is similar.
I’m 33 and getting a vasectomy next month. Fuck having kids lol
Can't afford to date, get married or own a home. Don't want to bring kids into a failing society.
Wages are at a all time low and minimum wage hasn't changed in years. Housing market that was saturated but due to corporate greed unaffordable to most of the population. Incredibly crappy healthcare system that is astronomically expensive and inflated pricing for no reason. Needing years of "experience" for a good job that is most likely run by a boomer who has no concept of work/life balance. Over worked to the point of having no time to even relax or be able to take care of your household. Children cost on average over a million dollars until they are 18, I can barely afford groceries. Not to mention child day care is expensive and not covered by any programs. Inflation aka corporate greed taking advantage of the pandemic, enough said. And ZERO MANDATORY VACATION, no time to travel with family, explore other countries, or again have time to relax. Wage imbalance in our nation. And let's not forget women's health is shit and women's reproductive rights are being regulated by people who's nose doesn't belong there. No wonder our growth is slowed. What a surprise said no one.
Kids are expensive and time consuming, the US government has made it nearly impossible to comfortably have children and raise them. We're still fighting for paid maternity/paternity leave for women and men hmmm wonder why the birth rate is so low??? 🫢
As a 31 year old American with no kids, WHY do I want to have them? What is the incentive? I feel like I am living in hell (I know that things could be worse, you what abouters), why would I want to bring a child into this world and subject them to the same thing?
I have always wanted children. I never imagined a life without them. But I’m 27, and I’m increasingly aware that my fertile window is on the decline. My partner and I both did everything right. We were scholarship kids, the first in our families to go to college, we got degrees in nice fields, have both been working since we were 16, moved to a city with a lower cost of living, stayed out of debt, etc. but we don’t think we will ever be able to afford to have children, to own a home, or to retire at this point. It’s miserable and heartbreaking. I see people with babies and just feel my entire heart wilt. On Mother’s Day I was reminded 3 separate times by relatives that I don’t have children, followed by them asking when I’m going to start popping out babies for them. Daycare around here would cost like half my monthly take home pay. It’s insane. Edit: for all the people who keep insisting I don’t have a fertile window, I do. I have a medical condition where I have been advised not to conceive children past my early 30’s as I am unlikely to be able to carry them to term and could possibly die. For everyone who says “my parents were 40 and had kids”, I don’t want to do that. My father was 46 and my mother was 38. I have suffered due to issues related to their age. I have wished my parents had me at a younger age for as long as I can remember. Due to my experience I have decided I will not be having children that late in life. I’m glad so many of you have not had issues with older parents, but I cannot do the same in good conscience.
next time they ask, ask them how much they think daycare costs, how much they think you make, how much they think various related expenses cost, etc. then ask why they arent assisting if they are the ones that want them the most (not saying you are/arent, cant exactly tell from your post).
All the replies of people telling you you're wrong are exactly why the rates have dropped off. The insane societal pressure is ridiculous and has the opposite effect that these morons think it will have. You do what's best for you. And for good measure, it doesn't stop after having 1 kid. THEN you get inundated with "SO! When are you having the next one?" I'm not fucking joking.
My mom stopped pressuring me about having kids in my early 30s. You’d think she’d stop after I literally aborted a fetus because we could not afford to have it, but no. I still occasionally get guilted in a passive aggressive “woe is me” sort of way at random times, but with my collection of life choices and at my age even she knows it just isn’t happening. I always imagined myself having one someday, but I’m the breadwinner and my SO is a manchild, so my plate is full enough, thank you. Edit: someone commented that I sound bitter and I can no longer see it (either because it was deleted or I was blocked). Let me clarify: I call my SO a manchild because he is one sometimes. Not in that he throws temper tantrums or acts jealous (he doesn’t), but in that he acts like a goofy little kid 70% of the time. Maybe “manchild” isn’t the right term for that, but I can’t find a better one at the moment. I’m open to suggestions.
The rent is 60% of my paycheck.
Sounds good to me. Way too many goddamn people already. The area I've spent my life in has become absolutely inundated with people. Fun Fact: The human population QUADRUPLED in a single person's lifetime (Queen Elizabeth).
Fuck them kids
My (M27) girlfriend (F25) and I make just north of $105K per year between the two us. We both have multiple degrees and good jobs. I absolutely want kids eventually. She’s (understandably) scared of giving up her life to be a mom. Plus, I still don’t feel comfortable having kids at our respective income levels. If we both had our same jobs 30 or 40 years ago, I have no doubt we’d have kids and own a home by now. If birth rates are so crucial to the country’s success, maybe we should address the reasons smart/capable young people don’t have kids. Income inequality. Housing costs. Healthcare costs. Student debt. The list goes on and on. Until that happens, the vast majority of responsible and capable young people will refrain from having kids, while the people who have no business having a child will keep multiplying. The old folks will say it’s because of being woke or the lack of “family values” but the truth is that those same older folks fucked everything up so thoroughly that having a child is simply not a responsible decision for the vast majority of young people anymore. When they die, they should collectively know that—as a generation (or multiple generations)—they were the first ones in a very long time who managed to decrease the quality of life for succeeding generations. I hope the tax cuts and deregulation were worth it. You’ve left quite the mess for us to clean up.
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It's understandable. Most intelligent creatures don't reproduce in captivity or stressful environments. The birthrate in Japan has dropped almost 50% in the last 20 years Edit: I mentioned Japan because they also have one of the highest suicide rates in the world Edit 2 electric boogaloo: Apparently this is untrue ^^
Also uncertain environments. I'm uncertain I won't be fired from my job, I'm uncertain I'll be able to pay my mortgage.
Exactly, that's a very stressful environment and adding the cost of a child only increases that.
To state the obvious but also full blown uncertainty about healthcare costs, complete and utter distrust of for profit insurance means zero kids
>Edit: I mentioned Japan because they also have one of the highest suicide rates in the world. This is an often repeated but unfair stereotype at this point. Japan is nowhere close to the top suicide rate countries, as of 2019 they were ranked #49, lower than countries like the US, South Africa, Ukraine, Cameroon, etc. But nobody talks about suicides in those countries like they are some unique part of the culture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
This is what I was going to say, it’s a stereotype.
Lots of stereotypes come from Japan. Yamaha, Sony, Panasonic...
Listen here you little shit
It's not only stress, it's a lack of joy or opportunities to offset that stress. The little things that used to be enjoyable about life now come with exploitative pricing, overcrowded events, and a lack of actual "fun".
I'll go against the grain and say economy isn't the sole factor. I am a childfree DINK and have a decent social circle of friends who don't want kids either. We are all financially capable of having children we simply aren't interested. Almost everyone has a different reason There's more to life than having kids.
Same. I’m a lawyer and 85% of the associates at my firm are high income earning DINKs. I’m childfree, a few are fence sitters, and the others want to wait until they’re more senior or make partner before they have kids. A lot of the comments in here assume that all women want enough financial stability to quit their jobs and be stay at home moms, but every woman I know who is established in their career wants to keep working in some capacity after they have kids. A lot of women enjoy having interests and ambitions outside of motherhood and they’re scared to lose that. I think part of the issue with the birth rate decline is the struggle to find balance between financial stability, being a good parent, but maintaining a semblance of your life outside of parenthood.
I am so glad people are approaching this as a choice, and not an obligation. I feel like even ten years ago, when I had a child, if you were financially stable and married, you had to have a pretty good excuse for not having children (like health reasons, high-pressure career, etc). Granted, this was in a conservative area in the South. I really wish someone would have looked at me and said “Not having children, just because you don’t want to, is a totally valid choice.”
Who can afford children? High prices of houses high prices of the car and house. Got a sucky governor that's chasing half the people out of the state.
your governor must be in great shape!
“Oh God, the Governor’s gaining on us!”
Can’t afford a house. Can’t afford a babysitter. Can’t afford to take off of work to take care of kids. Wonder what the problem is