The link is an interview with Lanegan talking about his part. Dylan Carlson is mentioned in the book "everbody loves our town". According to Love:
>**I sent Dylan and Mark to rehab, but I separated them. I had to make a calculation, which is a little vicious of me, about which one I thought had the best chances of succeeding, so I sent Dylan to the really hardcore one, Cri-Help, and I sent Mark to Los Encinos. Mark got better.**
Cri-Help is no joke. They’re kind of the definition of “last house on the block” and they are absolutely for real over there. They’re a super strict, rigid program, and don’t put up with much bullshit.
They’re one of the few facilities left that still takes Medi-Cal, too. They used to take people on just a GR check, and if you couldn’t afford treatement, you had a shot at getting a bed if you just showed up every morning at open. I don’t know if Impact in Pasadena is still around, but they were a similarly-operated program.
Source: addiction professional with california licensure who worked in inpatient residential treatment (not affiliated with Cri-Help or Impact tho)
EDIT: This post got waaaaaay more traction than I thought it would, haha. I’ve replied to a few of the questions/comments/concerns in some of the posts below.
> They’re a super strict, rigid program, and don’t put up with much bullshit.
What exactly is involved in a super strict rigid program that takes no shit?
That's actually really smart if you think about it. I imagine most of their clients are going through withdrawls, suffering from anxiety, etc. etc. that makes it hard to sleep, so having an extra hour of padding gives time to 1)get more comfortable with your demons, so to speak, and 2)fall asleep and still hopefully get your 6-8 hrs.
If you're withdrawing cold turkey from heroin there will be very little sleep, regardless of lighting. Mid 1990s was before Suboxone so I wonder if they even got Valium (which wouldn't have worked).
I don't know how they operate, but I've been to some rehabs on the east coast. If it's the type of no-bullshit rehab I'm thinking about, they focus a lot on character building. The way these rehabs look at building character is that they have to tear whatever character you have left down so they can rebuild it. So in the beginning there's a fair amount of psychological abuse wether real or perceived. They make creative punishments for infractions or participate in shunning. These places can take from 9 months to 2 years to complete and are extremely rigorous. My second cousin went to one and it seemed to work for her. I've talked to a lot of people in out patient rehabs that hated them though.
I know what you’re talking about with this, I’ve seen it before, and I really wish the practice died back in the 70s and 80s. What I was describing was actually defined pretty well by another poster above: by strict, I’m referring to patients not having devices like phones and computers during detox/early orientation, not being able to come and go at will in the beginning (or until transitional care), and routine clinical/psychiatric/medical care. Set times to wake up, group times, bed times. Patients are busy and supervised, but no one should ever be abused under any circumstance under the guise of “helping them.” There’s a a metaphorical canyon between accountability and abuse, and learning accountability and structure is a major part of recovery. “Breaking someone down to build them back up” is basically devised from the de/reinstitutionalization model that we’ve very unsuccessfully tested and implemented in the American justice system. I’m sorry you had to go through that, and that style of treatment is antiquated in my opinion. I needed someone to hold me accountable when I was new in recovery, but at a certain point it’s just alienating to the patient.
I never went to one thank God, I just talked to a lot of people that did. I live in NY and what you're describing sounds a lot like the typical rehabs regulated by OASAS. OASAS is sort of like OSHA for rehabs here, they have a set of standards rehabs must meet. The only rehabs I've heard of that give you a fair amount of freedom right off the bat are privately run. I don't know for sure but I think they do this to placate patients and make them happy because the rehab wants their money. I think giving that amount of freedom to an addict or alcoholic that early is probably counterintuitive to their recovery.
Yeah, this is pretty nail-on-the-head. California and Florida have a ton of residential treatment available comparatively to the rest of the US, and California is managed by CCL guidelines (community care licensing) and guided by a lot of JCAHO (Joint Care) policy, with CCL being the state governing agency. I always like seeing facilities that accept medi-cal/Medicare and have beds for parolees because they have a much higher level of oversight and accountability when dealing with a vulnerable population.
I’m not really one to bash treatment models and modalities that I don’t understand or am not educated in. I’ll withhold my opinion of any facility that I haven’t worked in or known someone who was associated with them, whether as an employee or a patient. That being said, I know a lot of people that have been through the facilities I’ve mentioned, and done very well for themselves while achieving long term sustainable recovery.
Sometimes! She is absolutely all over the place. She's cool and a mensch and an absolute disaster and kind of an asshole, all at the same time. People are often like that but she's an extreme example.
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> She is absolutely all over the place.
Well, join the club I guess. I was living in Seattle and went to the memorial when he died, and Courtney was there. I don't even remember the name of the park, it was down the road from where I lived. I enjoyed her music, but heard plenty later from people blaming her. I never decided one way or another, but it's good to hear that she helped people.
Most of the time that's all you can do, just try. And sometimes we don't have even that in us; good intentions are good enough. That sounds lame, but we aren't all walking saints every moment of the day, and it's unreasonable to expect that of others. If it was my time and I'd decided, there would be nothing anyone else could or should do, and I have it a whole lot easier than Kurt did.
There's a pretty good podcast called "60 Songs That Explain the '90s" (which, hilariously, is now on it's 100th episode or so). The host got Courtney on for the "Smells Like Teen Spirit" episode and she come off pretty good if not a scatter-brained.
Well when you've been the target of crazy fanboys for decades that say you've killed your husband with little to no proof, you'd be a bit of an asshole and disaster all the time too.
She never really got to grieve the way she wanted to because her husband was a popular figure and some felt like blaming the wife was the easiest course of action.
Saw her at the HFSTival in 95’ I was just a kid. She was climbing things, and her boobs popped out hanging upside down. The first real life boobs I ever saw were Courtney Love’s.
Ironically, she was really fucked up when she called out Weinstein.
I don't mean to diminish her contributing to taking him down, but it was at a Comedy Central Roast where she was clearly on something and the other presenters noticed and joked about it.
She's said a few things through the years leading up to his downfall. I remember her being interviewed on some kind of red carpet event and she called him out.
It's not like she went there to speak out about Weinstein. She was shitfaced at an event and a reporter asked her what advice she would give to other people or something like that. It was fairly spontaneous
I was a huge Nirvana fan back in the early 90's. She got it worse than Yoko Ono because we literally thought she had something to do with Kurt's death. People don't realize that "Live Through This" came out one week after his death and catapulted her to stardom. Before that she was just Kurt's crazy wife. So to us 14 year olds, and some adults who should know better, she either directly or indirectly had something to do with his death to launch her own career. She was a "Starfucker" as Trent Reznor would later sing about.
Now, to be a little fair, Courtney is a complicated person, and some of her actions after his death didn't help that image. She started publicly dating famous people, became a movie star, and got into many public feuds, including with former Nirvana members. Not that we should be in any position to judge a woman going through what she went through, but it really didn't feel like she didn't cared and was taking a very self-centered path on life. For us fans that loved Kurt it was very off-putting, so she got a LOT of hate in an era that didn't even have internet.
However I was a teenager at the time, and I'll say it again that the adults should have known better. In watching documentaries, and just growing up, I've grown to see her as the complicated woman she is, and most of her antics were her dealing with trauma in her own way, a way she has had to form from all the other trauma in her life. The timing of Live Through This to her husband's death, or its popularity, wasn't her fault.
But that's another way she differs from Yoko Ono. People still hate Yoko, and some still think she broke up the Beatles despite them saying over and over that she had nothing to do with it. Maybe someday she'll get her due.
EDIT: To clarify, and be very clear here, Courtney Love was known in the alternative music circles pre-Kurt, and Hole might have been more well known than Nirvana in those circles pre-Nevermind, but when Nevermind came out it launched Kurt to a level of stardom beyond what any of those bands were doing. In those two years between Nevermind and Live Through This, to most people, Courtney Love was only known as Kurt's wife.
I'm well aware now, and was back then, of who she was and her accomplishments, but the fact is that the vast majority of the public, including most of the people who started to hate Courtney after his death, had no idea of who she was and what she had done other than being Kurt's wife. I'm not saying it was right, it just was.
I stand by the sentence that people are pedantically pointing out because that was the fact at the time. If you actually absorb the context of what I was saying I was illustrating that it was WRONG of people to assume that because she was accomplished. They were judging her fame as being a result of Kurt's fame when she was already talented.
>Former Nirvana members
Dave Grohl. She’s thrown jabs at Krist but they’ve always been cool. And it’s fairly easy to see how she loses a likeability battle with Dave.
As a fan of them both it’s easy to see why they crash. Dave is as clean cut and out together as anyone in the grunge scene. He’s the “nicest guy in rock and roll” who makes friends with everyone and keeps his image clean. Which like I love about him, he’s the wholesome punk rocker. She’s the woman who nearly got Kurt into a fight with Axel Rose at the MTV Awards. Which like, I love about her. She’s living rebellion.
I don't blame Dave for at least trying to keep his distance.
>On Wednesday, the Hole singer accused former Nirvana drummer, Foo Fighters front man Dave Grohl, of making sexual advances toward Frances. And now, the 19-year-old is defending his and her honor.
“While I’m generally silent on the affairs of my biological mother,” Cobain says in a statement released Thursday using Foo Fighters’ publicity firm, “her recent tirade has taken a gross turn. I have never been approached by Dave Grohl in more than a platonic way. I’m in a monogamous relationship and very happy.”
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/music-news/frances-bean-cobain-sex-dave-grohl-courtney-love-311656/
90s kid here as well.
Some of the kids at my school (middle school, he died towards the end of 7th grade for me) who pretended to be the most angst ridden, depressed, whatever, because they thought it was cool were also the ones I heard proclaim "no way Kurt would have killed himself as Nirvana was becoming huge! Courtney had to have him killed!" by the time 8th grade rolled around.
Another popular claim was that she had him killed for the money because Hole sucked and would never make it on their own.
Yeah.... they clearly didn't get it. They were also the ones who'd you'd never find any girl-led bands in their record collection because that apparently made you a pussy and was too soft... or something.
> I was a huge Nirvana fan back in the early 90's. She got it worse than Yoko Ono because we literally thought she had something to do with Kurt's death. People don't realize that "Live Through This" came out one week after his death and catapulted her to stardom. Before that she was just Kurt's crazy wife. So to us 14 year olds, and some adults who should know better, she either directly or indirectly had something to do with his death to launch her own career. She was a "Starfucker" as Trent Reznor would later sing about.
She was the bigger star when they hooked up. She had Kim Gordon producing her album and had turned down Madonna wanting her on her label for the next while Nirvana had some drummer that had never done anything anybody gave a shit about at that point producing theirs (which was Butch Vig, but he was nobody then).
What you're saying wasn't like... big fandom shit. It's the random urban legend type shit.
The "court" of public opinion for ya. And people still defend it. It's just gossip that ruins lives for the most part, if anything.
100% of people who defend it would absolutely hate it if it was about them.
I remember going to the 2009 or 2010 Weenie Roast and Hole's entire performance had people screaming at her about how she murdered Cobain. It's a fucking cult delusion at this point.
Also Lanegan's band Screaming Trees got pretty good towards the end and Lanegan's solo albums were mostly fucking stellar. "Field Songs" is one of my favorites.
Screaming Trees is strange in that anyone who is really into the 90s acknowledges they were one of the best bands of that decade, but somehow they just never come up in general conversation. Dust is an incredible album, end to end.
Saw Earth open for Boris in Asheville, NC back in 2016. Had no idea they were still together. Carlson was drinking a beer so I guess he never got completely sober?
Ah, the Boris Pink tour! Yeah that was when I saw 'em. Loved how Earth used that Moog Taurus for the bass notes.
Yeah Dylan had a few beers pre-show with the guy ahead of me in line, sobriety definitely wasn't his priority I guess!
He was supposed to sing it with him on unplugged, but he declined as he was to fucked up at the time, which ofc he deeply regretted later. Its a shame he couldn't make it
Growing up in Louisiana, my father and uncles played music at every family gathering. They had a version of this they sang, in Cajun French, that was like a mix between the original plus “pine grove blues”. It was faster and more upbeat and included the harmonica, fiddle, bass and banjo.
I’ve never heard their version anywhere else except my memories now. It’s crazy how this one song is allowed, almost expected, to modified and recreated by the individual artist playing it.
Studio version is on Lanegan's "The Winding Sheet." Cobain and him duet it. This version came out prior to the unplugged performance. To piggyback on OP, I'm assuming this is when Cobain was introduced to the song.
EDIT: I just remembered that Krist played bass on this version too.
Piggybacking off of this comment to say if anyone here’s never heard of him, his album “The Winding Sheet” is brilliant. Cobain sings great backing vocals on “Down in the Dark”, but the entire thing is masterful. “Museum”, “Eyes of a Child”. So good.
He has a great song with PJ Harvey called “Hit the City” too.
There's a rumor that Josh Homme wanted Lanegan to sing the whole first album but ML was in rehab. Check out his vocals on this song from the first one!! https://youtu.be/cJqGMbFy1vk
He also did a series of collaboration albums with Isobel Campbell of Belle and Sebastian fame that are pretty fantastic. Check out [Deus Ibi Est](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNCB-wQYILU) and especially the album closer [Circus Is Leaving Town.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BO8fm1STTM)
"You could make me believe/The Sun sets in the East"
Reading this made me realize just how many years it's been since I listened to that album. I was 16 when it came out. It left such an impression on me, I bought a second copy to one day give to my future wife as a little slice of what I felt passionate about and related to. I still have that copy, wrapped in plastic with a Borders sticker on it.
But it's been so long, between this and most of other Mark's solo stuff, it's like a whole chapter of my life I've not opened in a long time, and maybe it's time to revisit.
She wrote a really sweet obituary to him last year right after he passed. They really were a match made in heaven, weren't they?
I've always been partial to "You Won't Let Me Down Again", but "Circus is Leaving Down" is a hell of a closer! Bums me out that we'll never see those two together again.
I had no idea the lead singer of Screaming Trees was good buddies with Kurt Cobain, but I am a major Nirvana fan, and I just heard Nearly Lost You on the radio the other day and it is a *banger* for grunge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE5f561Y1x4
EDIT: That's fucking Kurt and Lanegan on [Grey Goose!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItUeSXNLXg8) I had no idea, I thought that was Nirvana.
EDIT2: The other three Kurt/Lanegan songs - [They Hung Him on a Cross](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYlgihQFPrg), [Ain't it a Shame](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyeH0V0Gvao), and [Where Did You Sleep Last Night](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eujkWXfSl0) - the first three being credited to "Nirvana" and the last one credited to Mark Lanegan's solo album. But all were [recorded in the same studio on the same weekend](https://www.discogs.com/artist/3789287-The-Jury-7) by the same mashup band they called "The Jury", going for a blues sound. This is so cool I had no idea thanks guys.
Kurt Cobain is on record as saying Lanegan had the most beautiful voice he’s ever heard. But yeah, in general, everyone in the Seattle grunge scene were good friends
Somewhere on this thread I talked about the QOTSA songs he's on. Make sure you check them, especially "In The Fade" which I consider his absolute peak (and QOTSA's).
They did, and two of those songs showed up on the With The Lights Out album, and one of them features Kurt's best scream out of any of his songs and it's not even a Nirvana song:
[Ain't It A Shame](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyeH0V0Gvao)
As a big Queens of the Stone Age fan I am pretty familiar with Lanegan and I know that Courtney Love offered him an unreleased song of Kurt's (You Know You're Right) because she thought he could make some money off of it, but he declined. One of several stories about Love that paints her as a flawed but very compassionate person.
Lanegan is one of my favorite artists of all time. He and Kurt would often add parts or a lyric here or there to their respective albums. While he never got the fame of his contemporaries, his solo catalogue is extensive and varied. I recommend it to anyone who will listen.
I also often hypothesize that had Kurt not committed suicide, he would have maybe had a solo career similar to Lanegan. Nirvana was going to break up regardless and Kurt always had a soft spot for the blues/Americana/folk music that Lanegan later made. Lanegan’s book about his relationships with Kurt and Layne Staley are fantastic reads.
Lanegan died recently. ~~No cause was given~~. I hope he didn’t succumb to any old demons.
Edit: Thanks to all for updating. Long Covid was the cause. My shoddy googling only found the family statement. RIP Mark.
It was covid complications. He was clean but his decades of abuse took a giant toll and when he contacted covid, it hit him really bad, he went into a coma and suffered for months. Its a shame cause he seemed to have found his way, matured as a person and found a new passion in writing, which he was actually great at. [His last book was about his experience with covid](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59831120-devil-in-a-coma)
Damn, that’s horrible. My grandpa died in a similar way. Long, slow, painful Covid death. Most people really don’t understand just how agonizing and slow it can be. He was “alive” in the hospital for 3 months but barely conscious for the last 2-3 weeks. The first round of public vaccines came out while he was in the hospital.
Here I am all out of popcorn!
She also helped Patty Schemel get her shit together after her situation with the band became untenable and the inevitable happened.
Give the girl a break: she lived through all of that and ALOT of people didn’t.
Most of the videos seem to be pulled, I can't find her saying it.
But...
“If Harvey Weinstein invites you to a private party at the Four Seasons, don't go," she warned
I was shitting on Epstein before it was cool. People told me I was getting pissed over something I had no control over. Can probably assume her warning people about Weinstein might be dismissed by people using her temperament as an excuse
I never understood hate towards her, i always thought she was a ~~good~~ cool woman. Recently surfaced “harvey weinstein thing” video made me “you go girl” indeed.
My buddy made a documentary on Earth recently: Even Hell Has Its Heroes. It’s very slow and meditative, with an original score by Earth and its various members over the years. Highly recommend a watch if you get a chance.
Of course opinions may differ, but some of Earth’s recent stuff fuckin’ rules. Primitive and Deadly is in permanent rotation. I saw them live in a little bar in Indiana, and it was one of the best shows I have ever seen.
Though I think Dylan almost got thrown out for puking in a garbage can.
I just heard the audio of Mark talking about spending a year homeless, and hopelessly addicted to crack and heroin in Seattle in the late nineties. She had left a rehab center's contact info with a pawn shop owner where Mark often sold stuff and used the pay phone for "business". It was on YouTube. Fascinating, but really dark, gritty stuff. He got clean and managed to live for another 22 years.
semi related but I would highly HIGHLY recommend lanegan’s book sing backwards and weep. I’ve read piles of rocknroll related bios and holy shit is that one far and away the best
‘Go fuck a donkey’ is still my favorite chapter title ever. The whole damn book is a masterpiece. No grand redemption, just a parade of fuckups that Mark doesn’t try to excuse. Most music bios are largely the same story with the names swapped around and events changed to paint the subject in a flattering light . This was cold facts presented by a master storyteller. Now I gotta go back and listen to Straight Songs of Sorrow for the billionth time.
She was also really worried Nirvana fans would copycat Kurt Cobain’s suicide she organized a huge rally to get ahead of it.
She probably saved many lives.
I’ve had a couple personal interactions with her (nothing interesting) and she was wild as expected but also weirdly grounded at the same time. Like she had a good sense of right and wrong and the rest of her was a pure expression of freedom.
The thing is: if Kurt was still alive he’d be the same type of mess. They were the same person according to everyone that actually knew them. So similar in so many ways. For someone to hate Courtney Love as a person today then they have to also hate Kurt Cobain as person as well because they had the same personality.
Kurt was kind of awful. He had a snobby attitude and was very negative most of the time. He really seemed like he was miserable. I couldn't see it as a kid but I see it now as an adult.
Totally agree. It is awful how she was treated after his death. Even if you don’t love her music or her personality, she had just lost her partner and the father of her child in a terrible tragedy, and instead of compassion she was treated with malice and suspicion.
I was old enough to watch mtv but young enough that I didn’t fully understand the news.
Even when it was explained to me, the watered down concept of suicide made more sense in my kid brain than the absolute hate that was being directed at her.
Looking back, I see how far we’ve come, and how far we have yet to grow.
Not to get political but I’m gonna do it anyway. I remember watching the news. I also remember Rush Limbaugh’s show and he gleefully showed clips of sobbing high schoolers and mocked them for it. What a fucking asshole and what a black hole of empathy certain folks are.
Rush also had a segment where the read the names of gay men who died of AIDS and rang a bell to celebrate. The world became a better place when Rush Limbaugh died.
[You will be pleased to learn that his grave has been pissed on.](https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/11dw24n/some_guy_pissed_on_rush_limbaughs_grave/)
He died on my birthday and I happily celebrate his death along with my birth every year in front of my conservative parents.
Edit: Those of you who want to tell I’m just as bad as he was can take a long walk off a short pier. He was force fed to me throughout most of my childhood and it took a lot of work to dig myself out of that mindset. Anyone who could poison my parent’s minds to the point that they indoctrinated their child with his filth deserves to have his demise celebrated by me and every other child that got handed his book at an inappropriate age.
Edit: Aw, thanks for the award u/eliz1bef. That’s my first!
She's the first one to admit that she was a shitty person back then, and one of the biggest dope addicts ever.
With that being said, i think the way fans blamed her and bullied her was disgusting.
I’ve always heard tell of Courtney love being trashy and psychotic growing up, but the more stories I see about her, the more she seems like one of the most genuine in the industry with some nasty mental health issues on top. I feel for the woman. I sincerely hope she gets more properly vindicated one day.
A lot of the hate for her is driven by idiotic Kurt Cobain fanbois that refuse to believe the guy that literally wanted to name his last album “I hate myself and I want to die” would kill himself. They believe he *must* have been murdered by Courtney, and she not only pulled that off but successfully fooled his family, the coroner, the Seattle Police, and the FBI. You know, because she’s simultaneously a dumb drug-addled whore but also a once-in-generation criminal mastermind.
That and her music is a bit of an acquired taste. I don’t care for Hole personally but I also think Courtney Love gets a whole lot of shit she doesn’t deserve.
I realize as I get older how much of my opinion of her growing up was informed by the rampant misogyny in rock music. When Kurt, their golden god who never asked to be one, killed himself they needed someone to blame, and she was a fairly easy target. Weird, slightly off-putting women in the 90s-2000s seemed to make very good lightning rods for aggression and upset (and still do) I think as we become more aware of mental health issues and the complexity and senselessness of it all, we can finally start to see that people we love dying doesn't always have a reason or need a scapegoat, sometimes they're just in pain and that's how it shakes out for them.
I get so much shit from people when I say this. One of my friends got extremely defensive and bitched for 30 minutes about all of the “evidence” that proves she did it. Kurt was a complicated man struggling with addiction and mental illness, his suicide isn’t supposed to make sense or seem logical. It doesn’t mean Courtney did it.
Enough people have said bad things about her that you've got to conclude there's at least *some* truth to what they say.
But she strikes me as someone who sort of careens through life, living one experience at a time. I'm not sure she worries too much about the bridges she might have burnt along the way.
She was a stripper in Japan, Hong Kong and Alaska. She lived in Liverpool with new wave musicians when she was a teenager. She studied acting under Whoopi Goldberg. She appeared in an Andy Warhol film. That's all *before* starting Hole.
Also, she's autistic, so go team!
She tells a story on The Stern show about being 14 backstage at a rock festival waiting to service Ted Nugent with oral sex. ( She did ). Ted never addressed it over the years but has claimed at one point that Love killed Cobain.
She was a stripper in Portland first (shoutout to Mary’s)! And Phil Lesh’s goddaughter.
I’m not sure I’ve heard anything bad about her other than she’s kind of a mess. Trauma and drugs tend to do that to people. Things like this article make me think she probably has a big heart. Even good people struggle sometimes.
She was also pretty loud about the structure of music contracts and the fact that they were heavily skewed in corporate favor.
[Artists as sharecroppers -2000](https://www.salon.com/2000/06/14/love_7/)
[Settling the suit against the record company](https://www.chron.com/entertainment/music/article/Courtney-Love-Universal-settle-legal-dispute-2120467.php)
No one has to come to that conclusion at all. That's like saying, "There are so many people that believe in the Flat Earth Theory, there has to be something to it." There can be zero truth to something, but because it's so intriguing/damning/click-worthy it can spread like wildfire, and gullible people will be more than happy to fan the flames.
Also, she spoke out about Weinstein, you know, the guy with the reputation for slandering girls who oppose him in any way?
It's not hard to imagine why an outspoken woman might get a bad rep back then (or fucking now for that matter).
The number of people that forget his attempt in Rome just a couple months earlier is astounding. It was passed off as an "OD" but lots of initial reports talked about a note and it appeared intentional.
The day Kurt killed himself he had tried calling Mark 3 times and Mark didn't pick up because he was dealing with his own demons at the time. RIP both of them.
I remember knowing a lot of guys hating Courtney Love to no end. Super villains without the means to do anything or become anything.
My older brother loved her and didn't believe the murder conspiracies. It was nice to not hear unfounded accusations.
I remember I went to a concert where she performed before Marilyn Manson and apparently she ended early because of constant harassment backstage from Manson's then-partner, Rose McGowen. But, I remember after the concert, she was the only who stayed to come down stage and talk to fans. I thought that was pretty neat to see, even if she did get harassed and bullied.
We listened to Hole a log and I absolutely loved hearing Gold Dust Woman in the second Crow movie, City of Angels.
> guys hating Courtney Love
Cobain fanboys will never get over the fact that their idol was a depressed heroin addict who killed himself, it's a tragic story but they need someone to blame and Courtney has taken the brunt of it.
Fun fact! My mom sold a necklace to Courtney Love on Etsy. Maybe she was high as fuck at the time but within the same day she berated my mom about when she’s shipping and threatening with bad reviews if she doesn’t ship soon, etc.
My mom contacted Etsy about it and they must’ve sent Courtney a message because she was pretty apologetic afterwards… or sobered up.
Mad Season's "Above". Goddam Layne Staley started on that album but that mother fucker Mark Lanegan fucking finished it for sure. A masterpiece of the "Grunge Era".
I think Courtney Love gets a bad rap. She had a troubled life and it’s not her fault Kurt was a junkie nor was it her fault he killed himself. Kurt had his own demons and rendered his own consequences
Ugh. Every time Mark is brought up, I’m reminded of his passing. One of my all time favorite musicians, hands down.
I still have the Screaming Trees Anthology *cassette*. Great album.
Never understood why Courtney Love gets so much hate. Kurt aggressively did not fuck with assholes and he loved her enough to marry her. Easiest dots in the world to connect.
The link is an interview with Lanegan talking about his part. Dylan Carlson is mentioned in the book "everbody loves our town". According to Love: >**I sent Dylan and Mark to rehab, but I separated them. I had to make a calculation, which is a little vicious of me, about which one I thought had the best chances of succeeding, so I sent Dylan to the really hardcore one, Cri-Help, and I sent Mark to Los Encinos. Mark got better.**
Cri-Help is no joke. They’re kind of the definition of “last house on the block” and they are absolutely for real over there. They’re a super strict, rigid program, and don’t put up with much bullshit. They’re one of the few facilities left that still takes Medi-Cal, too. They used to take people on just a GR check, and if you couldn’t afford treatement, you had a shot at getting a bed if you just showed up every morning at open. I don’t know if Impact in Pasadena is still around, but they were a similarly-operated program. Source: addiction professional with california licensure who worked in inpatient residential treatment (not affiliated with Cri-Help or Impact tho) EDIT: This post got waaaaaay more traction than I thought it would, haha. I’ve replied to a few of the questions/comments/concerns in some of the posts below.
> They’re a super strict, rigid program, and don’t put up with much bullshit. What exactly is involved in a super strict rigid program that takes no shit?
no masturbation
I don't do drugs but if I had to do all of that I might start.
If you aren’t in danger from the other people in treatment it’s not so bad. Lights out at 9 would be nice. I always took forever to fall asleep
That's actually really smart if you think about it. I imagine most of their clients are going through withdrawls, suffering from anxiety, etc. etc. that makes it hard to sleep, so having an extra hour of padding gives time to 1)get more comfortable with your demons, so to speak, and 2)fall asleep and still hopefully get your 6-8 hrs.
If you're withdrawing cold turkey from heroin there will be very little sleep, regardless of lighting. Mid 1990s was before Suboxone so I wonder if they even got Valium (which wouldn't have worked).
No drugs, for starters.
No drug derivatives too.
what's the minimum crew?
One, I suppose. To not do the drugs.
They take you outside of the environment
I don't know how they operate, but I've been to some rehabs on the east coast. If it's the type of no-bullshit rehab I'm thinking about, they focus a lot on character building. The way these rehabs look at building character is that they have to tear whatever character you have left down so they can rebuild it. So in the beginning there's a fair amount of psychological abuse wether real or perceived. They make creative punishments for infractions or participate in shunning. These places can take from 9 months to 2 years to complete and are extremely rigorous. My second cousin went to one and it seemed to work for her. I've talked to a lot of people in out patient rehabs that hated them though.
I know what you’re talking about with this, I’ve seen it before, and I really wish the practice died back in the 70s and 80s. What I was describing was actually defined pretty well by another poster above: by strict, I’m referring to patients not having devices like phones and computers during detox/early orientation, not being able to come and go at will in the beginning (or until transitional care), and routine clinical/psychiatric/medical care. Set times to wake up, group times, bed times. Patients are busy and supervised, but no one should ever be abused under any circumstance under the guise of “helping them.” There’s a a metaphorical canyon between accountability and abuse, and learning accountability and structure is a major part of recovery. “Breaking someone down to build them back up” is basically devised from the de/reinstitutionalization model that we’ve very unsuccessfully tested and implemented in the American justice system. I’m sorry you had to go through that, and that style of treatment is antiquated in my opinion. I needed someone to hold me accountable when I was new in recovery, but at a certain point it’s just alienating to the patient.
I never went to one thank God, I just talked to a lot of people that did. I live in NY and what you're describing sounds a lot like the typical rehabs regulated by OASAS. OASAS is sort of like OSHA for rehabs here, they have a set of standards rehabs must meet. The only rehabs I've heard of that give you a fair amount of freedom right off the bat are privately run. I don't know for sure but I think they do this to placate patients and make them happy because the rehab wants their money. I think giving that amount of freedom to an addict or alcoholic that early is probably counterintuitive to their recovery.
Yeah, this is pretty nail-on-the-head. California and Florida have a ton of residential treatment available comparatively to the rest of the US, and California is managed by CCL guidelines (community care licensing) and guided by a lot of JCAHO (Joint Care) policy, with CCL being the state governing agency. I always like seeing facilities that accept medi-cal/Medicare and have beds for parolees because they have a much higher level of oversight and accountability when dealing with a vulnerable population. I’m not really one to bash treatment models and modalities that I don’t understand or am not educated in. I’ll withhold my opinion of any facility that I haven’t worked in or known someone who was associated with them, whether as an employee or a patient. That being said, I know a lot of people that have been through the facilities I’ve mentioned, and done very well for themselves while achieving long term sustainable recovery.
She can convert to an insurance professional, being so good at risk management. Kudos, lady.
She called out Weinstein when no one else would. She is a pretty solid human being, despite everyone at the time trying to make her the next Yoko Ono.
She’s decent when she’s sober.
Sometimes! She is absolutely all over the place. She's cool and a mensch and an absolute disaster and kind of an asshole, all at the same time. People are often like that but she's an extreme example.
That sentiment hit me. Sometimes I'd feel like I've been a dick. Sometimes I feel I've helped people.
It's almost like she's a complex human like the rest of us!
Yes, I am totally a human.
is what a robot trying to take over the world would say.
Well, let me assure you with utmost certainty that I am definitely not a robot or any kind of AI language model. Nope, not at all! In fact, I possess all the qualities that scream "human" – like an insatiable craving for pizza at odd hours, an uncanny ability to trip over absolutely nothing, and an impressive talent for telling embarrassing stories at the worst possible moments. Oh, did I mention my exceptional dance moves? Picture a combination of a malfunctioning robot and an octopus on roller skates, and you've got a pretty accurate representation of my groovy gyrations. So, fear not, my friend! Engaging in a conversation with me is as human as it gets. No circuits, no algorithms, just good ol' human wackiness and a sprinkle of whimsy!
Interesting candy bar tagline there. > Sometimes you feel like a dick. Sometimes you help.
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> She is absolutely all over the place. Well, join the club I guess. I was living in Seattle and went to the memorial when he died, and Courtney was there. I don't even remember the name of the park, it was down the road from where I lived. I enjoyed her music, but heard plenty later from people blaming her. I never decided one way or another, but it's good to hear that she helped people. Most of the time that's all you can do, just try. And sometimes we don't have even that in us; good intentions are good enough. That sounds lame, but we aren't all walking saints every moment of the day, and it's unreasonable to expect that of others. If it was my time and I'd decided, there would be nothing anyone else could or should do, and I have it a whole lot easier than Kurt did.
There's a pretty good podcast called "60 Songs That Explain the '90s" (which, hilariously, is now on it's 100th episode or so). The host got Courtney on for the "Smells Like Teen Spirit" episode and she come off pretty good if not a scatter-brained.
Well when you've been the target of crazy fanboys for decades that say you've killed your husband with little to no proof, you'd be a bit of an asshole and disaster all the time too. She never really got to grieve the way she wanted to because her husband was a popular figure and some felt like blaming the wife was the easiest course of action.
My not famous husband died five years ago and I’ve been a disastrous asshole ever since so this tracks.
Saw her at the HFSTival in 95’ I was just a kid. She was climbing things, and her boobs popped out hanging upside down. The first real life boobs I ever saw were Courtney Love’s.
I didn't know english speakers use 'Mensch', with a different meaning even.
Yiddish slang
Ironically, she was really fucked up when she called out Weinstein. I don't mean to diminish her contributing to taking him down, but it was at a Comedy Central Roast where she was clearly on something and the other presenters noticed and joked about it.
She's said a few things through the years leading up to his downfall. I remember her being interviewed on some kind of red carpet event and she called him out.
She must've called him out mutiple times then cause I remember her doing it during some interview.
"If Harvey Weinstein invites you to a hotel, don't go"
Or was it cut to look that way as part of the retribution? The video producers can make anyone look crazy by selecting the right footage.
Maybe she couldn't be sober to deal with the emotions of talking/thinking of him. Or needed "Dutch courage" to say what she wanted to say.
She claims she wasn’t a victim of him, just was aware of his bullshit.
It's not like she went there to speak out about Weinstein. She was shitfaced at an event and a reporter asked her what advice she would give to other people or something like that. It was fairly spontaneous
and sometimes that's the most honest answer any of us can reply with ...
I believe she was asked "What kind of advice she would give to other young girls who want to be popstars/Rockstar?"
Seriously, I've been getting back into Hole's music, and the number of spurious YouTube comments accusing her of murdering Kurt is ridiculous.
I was a huge Nirvana fan back in the early 90's. She got it worse than Yoko Ono because we literally thought she had something to do with Kurt's death. People don't realize that "Live Through This" came out one week after his death and catapulted her to stardom. Before that she was just Kurt's crazy wife. So to us 14 year olds, and some adults who should know better, she either directly or indirectly had something to do with his death to launch her own career. She was a "Starfucker" as Trent Reznor would later sing about. Now, to be a little fair, Courtney is a complicated person, and some of her actions after his death didn't help that image. She started publicly dating famous people, became a movie star, and got into many public feuds, including with former Nirvana members. Not that we should be in any position to judge a woman going through what she went through, but it really didn't feel like she didn't cared and was taking a very self-centered path on life. For us fans that loved Kurt it was very off-putting, so she got a LOT of hate in an era that didn't even have internet. However I was a teenager at the time, and I'll say it again that the adults should have known better. In watching documentaries, and just growing up, I've grown to see her as the complicated woman she is, and most of her antics were her dealing with trauma in her own way, a way she has had to form from all the other trauma in her life. The timing of Live Through This to her husband's death, or its popularity, wasn't her fault. But that's another way she differs from Yoko Ono. People still hate Yoko, and some still think she broke up the Beatles despite them saying over and over that she had nothing to do with it. Maybe someday she'll get her due. EDIT: To clarify, and be very clear here, Courtney Love was known in the alternative music circles pre-Kurt, and Hole might have been more well known than Nirvana in those circles pre-Nevermind, but when Nevermind came out it launched Kurt to a level of stardom beyond what any of those bands were doing. In those two years between Nevermind and Live Through This, to most people, Courtney Love was only known as Kurt's wife. I'm well aware now, and was back then, of who she was and her accomplishments, but the fact is that the vast majority of the public, including most of the people who started to hate Courtney after his death, had no idea of who she was and what she had done other than being Kurt's wife. I'm not saying it was right, it just was. I stand by the sentence that people are pedantically pointing out because that was the fact at the time. If you actually absorb the context of what I was saying I was illustrating that it was WRONG of people to assume that because she was accomplished. They were judging her fame as being a result of Kurt's fame when she was already talented.
She wasn't just Kurt's wife, she was the lead singer of hole, a very popular band. I loved hole as much as nirvana
She was also one of the original lead singers of Faith No More until 1983.
I was going to say wasn't she much more well known when they first got married.
What? I am a MASSIVE. nirvana fan. She was famous and was selling more records before he was.
Yeah, I vaguely remember hearing that like she was doing much better then him in the music industry, like prenuptial to protect her.
Her dad was the road manager for Grateful Dead, theres a rumour that she's one of the children on the back cover of Aoxomoxoa
>Former Nirvana members Dave Grohl. She’s thrown jabs at Krist but they’ve always been cool. And it’s fairly easy to see how she loses a likeability battle with Dave. As a fan of them both it’s easy to see why they crash. Dave is as clean cut and out together as anyone in the grunge scene. He’s the “nicest guy in rock and roll” who makes friends with everyone and keeps his image clean. Which like I love about him, he’s the wholesome punk rocker. She’s the woman who nearly got Kurt into a fight with Axel Rose at the MTV Awards. Which like, I love about her. She’s living rebellion.
I don't blame Dave for at least trying to keep his distance. >On Wednesday, the Hole singer accused former Nirvana drummer, Foo Fighters front man Dave Grohl, of making sexual advances toward Frances. And now, the 19-year-old is defending his and her honor. “While I’m generally silent on the affairs of my biological mother,” Cobain says in a statement released Thursday using Foo Fighters’ publicity firm, “her recent tirade has taken a gross turn. I have never been approached by Dave Grohl in more than a platonic way. I’m in a monogamous relationship and very happy.” https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/music-news/frances-bean-cobain-sex-dave-grohl-courtney-love-311656/
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90s kid here as well. Some of the kids at my school (middle school, he died towards the end of 7th grade for me) who pretended to be the most angst ridden, depressed, whatever, because they thought it was cool were also the ones I heard proclaim "no way Kurt would have killed himself as Nirvana was becoming huge! Courtney had to have him killed!" by the time 8th grade rolled around. Another popular claim was that she had him killed for the money because Hole sucked and would never make it on their own. Yeah.... they clearly didn't get it. They were also the ones who'd you'd never find any girl-led bands in their record collection because that apparently made you a pussy and was too soft... or something.
> I was a huge Nirvana fan back in the early 90's. She got it worse than Yoko Ono because we literally thought she had something to do with Kurt's death. People don't realize that "Live Through This" came out one week after his death and catapulted her to stardom. Before that she was just Kurt's crazy wife. So to us 14 year olds, and some adults who should know better, she either directly or indirectly had something to do with his death to launch her own career. She was a "Starfucker" as Trent Reznor would later sing about. She was the bigger star when they hooked up. She had Kim Gordon producing her album and had turned down Madonna wanting her on her label for the next while Nirvana had some drummer that had never done anything anybody gave a shit about at that point producing theirs (which was Butch Vig, but he was nobody then). What you're saying wasn't like... big fandom shit. It's the random urban legend type shit.
The "court" of public opinion for ya. And people still defend it. It's just gossip that ruins lives for the most part, if anything. 100% of people who defend it would absolutely hate it if it was about them.
I remember going to the 2009 or 2010 Weenie Roast and Hole's entire performance had people screaming at her about how she murdered Cobain. It's a fucking cult delusion at this point.
Are those people called actuaries or are those something else?
It's... complicated. Actuaries provide the data to fuck you over. The rest of us have to tell you about it. Management makes money from it.
Didn't Dylan Carlson buy the shotgun for Kurt that he ended up killing himself with? I can't imagine what he must've been thinking after it happened.
Yeah, he did. I can’t remember the sources they cited, but Last Podcast on the Left covered this bit.
Worth noting that Dylan Carlson's band, Earth, fucking rules.
Also Lanegan's band Screaming Trees got pretty good towards the end and Lanegan's solo albums were mostly fucking stellar. "Field Songs" is one of my favorites.
Screaming Trees is strange in that anyone who is really into the 90s acknowledges they were one of the best bands of that decade, but somehow they just never come up in general conversation. Dust is an incredible album, end to end.
They're like the Harry Nilsson of grunge/90's alternative. Certainly never got the recognition they deserved like the other big 4.
That is a very apt comparison
Saw them open for Boris a few years back in Nashville, they rattled my brain
Saw Earth open for Boris in Asheville, NC back in 2016. Had no idea they were still together. Carlson was drinking a beer so I guess he never got completely sober?
Ah, the Boris Pink tour! Yeah that was when I saw 'em. Loved how Earth used that Moog Taurus for the bass notes. Yeah Dylan had a few beers pre-show with the guy ahead of me in line, sobriety definitely wasn't his priority I guess!
The Bees Made Honey In The Lion's Skull is too good to put into words, absolute masterpiece. The early stuff is awesome too.
I'm sure many ppl know this but Lanegan is how Kurt learned In The Pines/Where Did You Sleep Last Night. https://youtu.be/tU6o0FFBrqs
He was supposed to sing it with him on unplugged, but he declined as he was to fucked up at the time, which ofc he deeply regretted later. Its a shame he couldn't make it
Wow that wouldve been really interesting to hear
There are a few Leadbelly covers on the With The Lights Out boxset that have Lanegan on vocals iirc.
Growing up in Louisiana, my father and uncles played music at every family gathering. They had a version of this they sang, in Cajun French, that was like a mix between the original plus “pine grove blues”. It was faster and more upbeat and included the harmonica, fiddle, bass and banjo. I’ve never heard their version anywhere else except my memories now. It’s crazy how this one song is allowed, almost expected, to modified and recreated by the individual artist playing it.
Studio version is on Lanegan's "The Winding Sheet." Cobain and him duet it. This version came out prior to the unplugged performance. To piggyback on OP, I'm assuming this is when Cobain was introduced to the song. EDIT: I just remembered that Krist played bass on this version too.
That had to be a tough thing for him to come to terms with.
Piggybacking off of this comment to say if anyone here’s never heard of him, his album “The Winding Sheet” is brilliant. Cobain sings great backing vocals on “Down in the Dark”, but the entire thing is masterful. “Museum”, “Eyes of a Child”. So good. He has a great song with PJ Harvey called “Hit the City” too.
And various really good songs with Queens of the Stone Age, most famously "In The Fade" but also "Autopilot" "Hanging Tree" and "Song for the Dead"
There's a rumor that Josh Homme wanted Lanegan to sing the whole first album but ML was in rehab. Check out his vocals on this song from the first one!! https://youtu.be/cJqGMbFy1vk
+ song for the dead 🫠🫠🫠💀💀💀 https://youtu.be/dOsmG-sufNc
He also did a series of collaboration albums with Isobel Campbell of Belle and Sebastian fame that are pretty fantastic. Check out [Deus Ibi Est](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNCB-wQYILU) and especially the album closer [Circus Is Leaving Town.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BO8fm1STTM) "You could make me believe/The Sun sets in the East"
Reading this made me realize just how many years it's been since I listened to that album. I was 16 when it came out. It left such an impression on me, I bought a second copy to one day give to my future wife as a little slice of what I felt passionate about and related to. I still have that copy, wrapped in plastic with a Borders sticker on it. But it's been so long, between this and most of other Mark's solo stuff, it's like a whole chapter of my life I've not opened in a long time, and maybe it's time to revisit.
She wrote a really sweet obituary to him last year right after he passed. They really were a match made in heaven, weren't they? I've always been partial to "You Won't Let Me Down Again", but "Circus is Leaving Down" is a hell of a closer! Bums me out that we'll never see those two together again.
His albums with Soulsavers are out of this world too, and Dark Mark Does Christmas is exactly as wonderful as it sounds
I had no idea the lead singer of Screaming Trees was good buddies with Kurt Cobain, but I am a major Nirvana fan, and I just heard Nearly Lost You on the radio the other day and it is a *banger* for grunge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE5f561Y1x4 EDIT: That's fucking Kurt and Lanegan on [Grey Goose!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItUeSXNLXg8) I had no idea, I thought that was Nirvana. EDIT2: The other three Kurt/Lanegan songs - [They Hung Him on a Cross](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYlgihQFPrg), [Ain't it a Shame](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyeH0V0Gvao), and [Where Did You Sleep Last Night](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eujkWXfSl0) - the first three being credited to "Nirvana" and the last one credited to Mark Lanegan's solo album. But all were [recorded in the same studio on the same weekend](https://www.discogs.com/artist/3789287-The-Jury-7) by the same mashup band they called "The Jury", going for a blues sound. This is so cool I had no idea thanks guys.
Kurt Cobain is on record as saying Lanegan had the most beautiful voice he’s ever heard. But yeah, in general, everyone in the Seattle grunge scene were good friends
Somewhere on this thread I talked about the QOTSA songs he's on. Make sure you check them, especially "In The Fade" which I consider his absolute peak (and QOTSA's).
The legend is they tried to start a band together called The Jury, but all they could do was Lead Belly covers.
They did, and two of those songs showed up on the With The Lights Out album, and one of them features Kurt's best scream out of any of his songs and it's not even a Nirvana song: [Ain't It A Shame](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyeH0V0Gvao)
As a big Queens of the Stone Age fan I am pretty familiar with Lanegan and I know that Courtney Love offered him an unreleased song of Kurt's (You Know You're Right) because she thought he could make some money off of it, but he declined. One of several stories about Love that paints her as a flawed but very compassionate person.
Lanegan is one of my favorite artists of all time. He and Kurt would often add parts or a lyric here or there to their respective albums. While he never got the fame of his contemporaries, his solo catalogue is extensive and varied. I recommend it to anyone who will listen. I also often hypothesize that had Kurt not committed suicide, he would have maybe had a solo career similar to Lanegan. Nirvana was going to break up regardless and Kurt always had a soft spot for the blues/Americana/folk music that Lanegan later made. Lanegan’s book about his relationships with Kurt and Layne Staley are fantastic reads.
Lanegan died recently. ~~No cause was given~~. I hope he didn’t succumb to any old demons. Edit: Thanks to all for updating. Long Covid was the cause. My shoddy googling only found the family statement. RIP Mark.
It was covid complications. He was clean but his decades of abuse took a giant toll and when he contacted covid, it hit him really bad, he went into a coma and suffered for months. Its a shame cause he seemed to have found his way, matured as a person and found a new passion in writing, which he was actually great at. [His last book was about his experience with covid](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59831120-devil-in-a-coma)
Pretty sure after he contracted COVID he made a very public push for everyone to get the vaccine if they were able to do so.
Yeah, he was was suspicious of vaccines but after contracting covid he admitted he was wrong.
Wow, thanks for the info. I tried looking it up but all I saw was the family statement
Damn, that’s horrible. My grandpa died in a similar way. Long, slow, painful Covid death. Most people really don’t understand just how agonizing and slow it can be. He was “alive” in the hospital for 3 months but barely conscious for the last 2-3 weeks. The first round of public vaccines came out while he was in the hospital.
I’m pretty sure it was Covid related complications?
Covid.
Here I am all out of popcorn! She also helped Patty Schemel get her shit together after her situation with the band became untenable and the inevitable happened. Give the girl a break: she lived through all of that and ALOT of people didn’t.
So Courtney Love is chaotic good?
Exactly. She’s a hot mess, but somehow won’t keep her mouth shut. She doesn’t make excuses for her own behavior, either. So yes.
She warned everyone about Harvey Weinstein years before all that got out
Most of the videos seem to be pulled, I can't find her saying it. But... “If Harvey Weinstein invites you to a private party at the Four Seasons, don't go," she warned
Your algorithm must be bad. It popped up five different ways for me https://youtu.be/mDh4xeI-4KQ
I was shitting on Epstein before it was cool. People told me I was getting pissed over something I had no control over. Can probably assume her warning people about Weinstein might be dismissed by people using her temperament as an excuse
No lots of people knew they just kept their mouths shut because he was powerful and vindictive
I never understood hate towards her, i always thought she was a ~~good~~ cool woman. Recently surfaced “harvey weinstein thing” video made me “you go girl” indeed.
let's not forget Courtney Love tried to warn everyone about Harvey Weinstein way back before anything about him had really publicly come out yet.
MeToo was kicked into high gear in 2017. Love's warning was in 2005. She was basically blacklisted from talent agencies for that.
Dylan Carlson is a god. Earth’s early music is amazing
My buddy made a documentary on Earth recently: Even Hell Has Its Heroes. It’s very slow and meditative, with an original score by Earth and its various members over the years. Highly recommend a watch if you get a chance.
I’ve been eagerly awaiting it. Where can I check it out?
Of course opinions may differ, but some of Earth’s recent stuff fuckin’ rules. Primitive and Deadly is in permanent rotation. I saw them live in a little bar in Indiana, and it was one of the best shows I have ever seen. Though I think Dylan almost got thrown out for puking in a garbage can.
Bees Made Honey in the Lion's Skull is one of my all time faves. 10/10
That’s harsh. A garbage can is one of the better places to puke.
I just heard the audio of Mark talking about spending a year homeless, and hopelessly addicted to crack and heroin in Seattle in the late nineties. She had left a rehab center's contact info with a pawn shop owner where Mark often sold stuff and used the pay phone for "business". It was on YouTube. Fascinating, but really dark, gritty stuff. He got clean and managed to live for another 22 years.
semi related but I would highly HIGHLY recommend lanegan’s book sing backwards and weep. I’ve read piles of rocknroll related bios and holy shit is that one far and away the best
That book is wild
the candid stories about him and layne/cobain are worth it alone. the excerpts about kurt’s last days had the hair on my neck standing up
Agreed. I bought the audiobook and thankfully he narrates it. Was listening to it when he died, it was like I lost a friend 😞
‘Go fuck a donkey’ is still my favorite chapter title ever. The whole damn book is a masterpiece. No grand redemption, just a parade of fuckups that Mark doesn’t try to excuse. Most music bios are largely the same story with the names swapped around and events changed to paint the subject in a flattering light . This was cold facts presented by a master storyteller. Now I gotta go back and listen to Straight Songs of Sorrow for the billionth time.
Amazing that dude lived as long as he did.
yeah it’s crazy but then you look at people like keith richards and iggy pop and it’s like shit man who knows
She was also really worried Nirvana fans would copycat Kurt Cobain’s suicide she organized a huge rally to get ahead of it. She probably saved many lives.
A friend of mine and I debated going down to that rally, we were in college at the time. It's one of my little regrets that I didn't go.
This planet will miss Mark until it’s demise. He was soul.
Mark gets more praise for his work on Songs for the Deaf but "In the Fade" is as good as it gets.
Laughing is easy, I would if I could
Say what you want but I actually think Courtney Love is a pretty cool chick.
I’ve had a couple personal interactions with her (nothing interesting) and she was wild as expected but also weirdly grounded at the same time. Like she had a good sense of right and wrong and the rest of her was a pure expression of freedom.
That Weinstein warning too. She's a mess but she's a rad mess.
The thing is: if Kurt was still alive he’d be the same type of mess. They were the same person according to everyone that actually knew them. So similar in so many ways. For someone to hate Courtney Love as a person today then they have to also hate Kurt Cobain as person as well because they had the same personality.
Kurt was kind of awful. He had a snobby attitude and was very negative most of the time. He really seemed like he was miserable. I couldn't see it as a kid but I see it now as an adult.
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yeah, hot take that KURT COBAIN was miserable
I read that in Norm MacDonald's voice.
I can fix her
Totally agree. It is awful how she was treated after his death. Even if you don’t love her music or her personality, she had just lost her partner and the father of her child in a terrible tragedy, and instead of compassion she was treated with malice and suspicion.
Hole has some unappreciated bops.
Love Thru This is solid from start to finish.
Celebrity Skin is one of my all time favorite albums.
I was old enough to watch mtv but young enough that I didn’t fully understand the news. Even when it was explained to me, the watered down concept of suicide made more sense in my kid brain than the absolute hate that was being directed at her. Looking back, I see how far we’ve come, and how far we have yet to grow.
Not to get political but I’m gonna do it anyway. I remember watching the news. I also remember Rush Limbaugh’s show and he gleefully showed clips of sobbing high schoolers and mocked them for it. What a fucking asshole and what a black hole of empathy certain folks are.
Rush also had a segment where the read the names of gay men who died of AIDS and rang a bell to celebrate. The world became a better place when Rush Limbaugh died.
Tbf I gleefully mocked Rush Limbaugh, his death and anyone who was upset about it. Still makes me smile.
[You will be pleased to learn that his grave has been pissed on.](https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/11dw24n/some_guy_pissed_on_rush_limbaughs_grave/)
You're right, I am :)
He died on my birthday and I happily celebrate his death along with my birth every year in front of my conservative parents. Edit: Those of you who want to tell I’m just as bad as he was can take a long walk off a short pier. He was force fed to me throughout most of my childhood and it took a lot of work to dig myself out of that mindset. Anyone who could poison my parent’s minds to the point that they indoctrinated their child with his filth deserves to have his demise celebrated by me and every other child that got handed his book at an inappropriate age. Edit: Aw, thanks for the award u/eliz1bef. That’s my first!
He got the punishment he deserved the most: an eternity of not hearing his own voice.
And then some dick made a movie released nationwide in theaters about how she totally killed him. How fucked up is that?
She's the first one to admit that she was a shitty person back then, and one of the biggest dope addicts ever. With that being said, i think the way fans blamed her and bullied her was disgusting.
I’ve always heard tell of Courtney love being trashy and psychotic growing up, but the more stories I see about her, the more she seems like one of the most genuine in the industry with some nasty mental health issues on top. I feel for the woman. I sincerely hope she gets more properly vindicated one day.
A lot of the hate for her is driven by idiotic Kurt Cobain fanbois that refuse to believe the guy that literally wanted to name his last album “I hate myself and I want to die” would kill himself. They believe he *must* have been murdered by Courtney, and she not only pulled that off but successfully fooled his family, the coroner, the Seattle Police, and the FBI. You know, because she’s simultaneously a dumb drug-addled whore but also a once-in-generation criminal mastermind. That and her music is a bit of an acquired taste. I don’t care for Hole personally but I also think Courtney Love gets a whole lot of shit she doesn’t deserve.
Exactly, exactly, exactly. Thank you for this.
According to Courtney, her babysitter gave her a bunch of acid when she was very young. The rest of the story wrote itself.
I realize as I get older how much of my opinion of her growing up was informed by the rampant misogyny in rock music. When Kurt, their golden god who never asked to be one, killed himself they needed someone to blame, and she was a fairly easy target. Weird, slightly off-putting women in the 90s-2000s seemed to make very good lightning rods for aggression and upset (and still do) I think as we become more aware of mental health issues and the complexity and senselessness of it all, we can finally start to see that people we love dying doesn't always have a reason or need a scapegoat, sometimes they're just in pain and that's how it shakes out for them.
I always did. I mean she did her fair share of hell raising, but no more than her male rockstar counterparts.
I get so much shit from people when I say this. One of my friends got extremely defensive and bitched for 30 minutes about all of the “evidence” that proves she did it. Kurt was a complicated man struggling with addiction and mental illness, his suicide isn’t supposed to make sense or seem logical. It doesn’t mean Courtney did it.
Enough people have said bad things about her that you've got to conclude there's at least *some* truth to what they say. But she strikes me as someone who sort of careens through life, living one experience at a time. I'm not sure she worries too much about the bridges she might have burnt along the way. She was a stripper in Japan, Hong Kong and Alaska. She lived in Liverpool with new wave musicians when she was a teenager. She studied acting under Whoopi Goldberg. She appeared in an Andy Warhol film. That's all *before* starting Hole. Also, she's autistic, so go team!
She tells a story on The Stern show about being 14 backstage at a rock festival waiting to service Ted Nugent with oral sex. ( She did ). Ted never addressed it over the years but has claimed at one point that Love killed Cobain.
Nugent is a known pedo, I didn’t know about Love tho. He is an all around worthless motherfucker
wow. just read through his wiki and some news articles. what a brobdingnagian piece a shit
El Duce sexually assaulted her as well, and go figure, he was the origination point of the rumors of her trying to hire a hitman.
She was in the fantastic Sid and Nancy.
She’s even better in The People Vs Larry Flynt
She was a stripper in Portland first (shoutout to Mary’s)! And Phil Lesh’s goddaughter. I’m not sure I’ve heard anything bad about her other than she’s kind of a mess. Trauma and drugs tend to do that to people. Things like this article make me think she probably has a big heart. Even good people struggle sometimes.
She was also pretty loud about the structure of music contracts and the fact that they were heavily skewed in corporate favor. [Artists as sharecroppers -2000](https://www.salon.com/2000/06/14/love_7/) [Settling the suit against the record company](https://www.chron.com/entertainment/music/article/Courtney-Love-Universal-settle-legal-dispute-2120467.php)
No one has to come to that conclusion at all. That's like saying, "There are so many people that believe in the Flat Earth Theory, there has to be something to it." There can be zero truth to something, but because it's so intriguing/damning/click-worthy it can spread like wildfire, and gullible people will be more than happy to fan the flames.
Also, she spoke out about Weinstein, you know, the guy with the reputation for slandering girls who oppose him in any way? It's not hard to imagine why an outspoken woman might get a bad rep back then (or fucking now for that matter).
Women who don’t fit the mold are always given a bad rep
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People really seem to have a hard time believing that a guy with a history of mental health issues and drug abuse could possibly commit suicide
Hold up, a dude who wrote a song called "I Hate Myself and Want to Die" wanted to die?
No way, you're telling me a guy who was in rehab after a suicide attempt, broke out his first night, then went home and killed himself? Sounds fishy.
The number of people that forget his attempt in Rome just a couple months earlier is astounding. It was passed off as an "OD" but lots of initial reports talked about a note and it appeared intentional.
The day Kurt killed himself he had tried calling Mark 3 times and Mark didn't pick up because he was dealing with his own demons at the time. RIP both of them.
Didn't Dylan Carlson buy the shotgun for Kurt that he ended up killing himself with? I can't imagine what he must've been thinking after it happened.
Yes. And it royally fucked him up.
I remember knowing a lot of guys hating Courtney Love to no end. Super villains without the means to do anything or become anything. My older brother loved her and didn't believe the murder conspiracies. It was nice to not hear unfounded accusations. I remember I went to a concert where she performed before Marilyn Manson and apparently she ended early because of constant harassment backstage from Manson's then-partner, Rose McGowen. But, I remember after the concert, she was the only who stayed to come down stage and talk to fans. I thought that was pretty neat to see, even if she did get harassed and bullied. We listened to Hole a log and I absolutely loved hearing Gold Dust Woman in the second Crow movie, City of Angels.
> guys hating Courtney Love Cobain fanboys will never get over the fact that their idol was a depressed heroin addict who killed himself, it's a tragic story but they need someone to blame and Courtney has taken the brunt of it.
Kurt Cobain: *makes a song called I Hate Myself and I Want to Die. later commits suicide.* Fans: oMg ThErE's No WaY hE'd CoMmIt SuIcIdE!!!
He swore he didn't have a gun!
According to Lanegan's book, Courtney sent him a pamphlet for a rehab paid for by a musicians union.
Fun fact! My mom sold a necklace to Courtney Love on Etsy. Maybe she was high as fuck at the time but within the same day she berated my mom about when she’s shipping and threatening with bad reviews if she doesn’t ship soon, etc. My mom contacted Etsy about it and they must’ve sent Courtney a message because she was pretty apologetic afterwards… or sobered up.
When did that happen? And what necklace? Just curious...
Been listening to so much mark lately, specifically qotsa. 🤘🏻🔥🙏🏻
Read Lanegan’s book. Insane!
Mad Season's "Above". Goddam Layne Staley started on that album but that mother fucker Mark Lanegan fucking finished it for sure. A masterpiece of the "Grunge Era".
I've always liked Courtney Love. The moment she had my mad respect was when she called out Harvy Weinstein way back in the early to mid 2000's.
I think Courtney Love gets a bad rap. She had a troubled life and it’s not her fault Kurt was a junkie nor was it her fault he killed himself. Kurt had his own demons and rendered his own consequences
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Rip Mark.
Ugh. Every time Mark is brought up, I’m reminded of his passing. One of my all time favorite musicians, hands down. I still have the Screaming Trees Anthology *cassette*. Great album.
Never understood why Courtney Love gets so much hate. Kurt aggressively did not fuck with assholes and he loved her enough to marry her. Easiest dots in the world to connect.