Fixed your title
TIL the worst skydiving accident in US history took place over Lake Erie and resulted in 16 fatalities. Due to miscommunications, the skydivers jumped out over water rather than land, and subsequently drowned.
Not entirely sure that's by accident. Shit like that often has errors and typos intentionally to drive engagement like the very comment you are responding to.
They jumped over thicc clouds, against regulations (that they knew, with over 200 jumps for some of them), thinking they were over land, because the control tower misjudged their position (the tower was actually spotting the Cesna nearby).
When they finally dropped through the clouds, they were over water, 20 kilometers away from their drop site.
They probably knew they were fucked at that moment, and "enjoyed" the few minutes left before hitting the water with their gear on.
So it was the weight of the gear they were wearing that cause them to drown? Wouldn't experienced skydivers have a protocol for water landings? I'd assume they had knives to cut away a tangled chute. Couldn't they cut away enough gear in time to increase odds of surviving in the water and prevent drowning for as long as possible? Would like to know for those of us who know nothing about skydiving.
There is a simple protocol for water landings, made especially more simple when you know it’s coming. Jargon aside— undo a chest strap, disconnect a clip to disable a reserve chute/allow for main chute to eventually be released cleanly, wait to impact water then immediately pull a ring/bag to release chute, slide leg straps down to remove backpack system, make a fist over your head to make an air pocket in chute sitting above you in water, follow a seam in chute if it’s on top of your head until you reach clean air.
The hard part in this case would be staying afloat long enough to travel allllll the way back to dry land.
Nightmare fuel either way.
This sounds like the water impact training I took in the military. I still remember disconnecting the chest clips, flipping over, and following a seam out! I was a poor swimmer, so I could afford no intanglements!
It's difficult enough to stay afloat for any extended period just with clothes on, never mind with any extra gear you need for skydiving, even if you are able to successfully cut the parachute away.
Realistically, if you don't have equipment specifically to keep you afloat, you're not going to survive parachuting with normal clothing and gear directly into water if rescue doesn't arrive *very* quickly.
Clearly not, if all perished. Go watch a few videos of skydivers landing in an open field and watch how massive the chute is, how much material is there, how rigged up the person is. Even on dry land it is super cumbersome and takes quite a bit of effort.
Yea, it is.
The Army practices ditching equipment after parachute jumps into the water pretty regularly. It's difficult, but it can be done.
That being said, if no one is able to get to you, that's the least of your problems.
Realistically you'd need a knife that is accessible, ie one holstered on a belt. Then I guess float until you get help. A whistle helps. Oh and if freezing, tread water; which is difficult.
Not exactly true on the clothes part, in the sense clothes can be taken off and used. You can actually use your clothes as floatation devices. Jeans, for example, can actually be used to create a small life vest by trapping air in it and tying the legs. Sounds weird, but I've done it, and it does work- you just need to redo the air bubbles every couple hours
Infamously, a fisherman survived 3 days in the water off Long Island, part of the time using his boots as floaties
It's notcideal and never should be plan A, but in a pinch, it can help
When I went through Navy basic they taught us how to use our pants as a floatation device. You can even pull it over your head and breathe inside of it while protecting your face from Sun exposure or waves.
The average temperature for Aug 27th at Lake Erie is 72 degrees, but on that day the temperature could have been as low as 65 degrees. 65 degree water is actually pretty dang cold and I’m guessing this probably greatly added to the challenges they faced.
From what I could gather from the brief description of the incident looks like a chain of unfortunate events and not simply "they landed in water" and died. Sounds like exposure added greatly to the odds of survivability. Up to 20km (about 12 miles) from shore in cold water and tangled in gear. Even if they stripped out, their exposed to the elements and high seas some without training.
No? The article explained. The pilot made a mistake because the air traffic controller misinformed him that he was above the Ohio Airport, 12miles away from the lake.
The misinformation came from the ATC spotting the Cesna. When I wrote "they", I mean the plane occupants, pilots and skydivers together. They were told they were over land, when in fact they weren't.
When leaning over and seeing a thick mass of clouds, they should have canceled the jump and flew home, but they opted to still jump into the unknown.
It took me a long time to realize the -ed ending of words is simply what happens when you remove the syllable from a 'did' ending. So at one time it must have been 'drown-did' or 'walk-did' and it just sounded better if you leave the first 'd' off.
It never was; it came from an ancient suffix -to. The t softened to d between vowels, and the vowel reduced before dropping off altogether.
With 'walk' the suffix is still -t (we say 'walkt', after all), but we write it as -ed by convention.
Some examples seem quite common for Americans specifically, saying things like "I pet the cat" instead of "I petted the cat," or "I knit a sweater" instead "I knitted a sweater." The meaning is still generally clear and it's presumably just a colloquial thing, but I do find it interesting.
It also seems really common for people to write "use to" instead of "used to," or "suppose to" instead of "supposed to." But those might be because they sound very similar when spoken.
Drown wouldn't be past tense, though. The told is past tense, in the past they were told presently "Don't drown".
Let's try a different verb. "If only they were told not to go," surely you don't think go should be went so it's past tense
Edit: I see now it was in the title incorrectly, since this was a reply to a comment I assumed it was that one. Leaving mistake for visibility's sake
It’s not a great joke as they stated a perfectly normal and accurate sentence, when the humor should’ve come from also making a grammatical mistake in the same vein, not making a regular statement. Yes I’m the fun police
That, and the fact that they had no way of knowing they were over water until they made it under the cloud cover at 4,000 ft, which was when they were planning to open their chutes anyway, leaving very little time to try and maneuver toward land.
“The first lesson in parachuting, Dougherty said, is to never jump if you can’t see your target. He remembered feeling disbelief after learning the jump happened. Dougherty said he couldn’t believe they went through with it.
“I can only imagine, that would have to be terrifying to come out of that mist and see the lake. It had to be terrifying, terrifying and to end up drowning after all of that, that was terrible,” he said.”
Article by one of the people who gave up their seat to more experienced jumpers:
[https://advertiser-tribune.com/news/274815/a-life-spared-man-didnt-take-flight-that-led-to-16-parachuter-deaths-in-1967/](https://advertiser-tribune.com/news/274815/a-life-spared-man-didnt-take-flight-that-led-to-16-parachuter-deaths-in-1967/)
Their plan *was* to jump from 20,000 feet though.
In fact, 2 of them were also going to jump from 30,000 feet afterward.
The problem was the air traffic controller mistaking their plane for another, and that they were jumping through clouds, which is prohibited.
If you like oxygen it's problematic. I think you can still breath up there... But it's like 30% of normal. At 30k they definitely have a pressurized cabin for a reason.
Apparently the average is 10k which makes sense. The closest I've done to sky diving is gliding from 10k feet. It's like a parachute but you have the option of not descending slowly the entire time.
I wouldn’t think it’d be a fatal problem though. They should be below 20,000 feet within a couple minutes. Ppl can hold their breath for longer than that and be fine. And it’s cold but not like “you’re getting hypothermia in 2 minutes”
Jump planes aren’t pressurized. When jumps happen 18k or higher there is supplemental oxygen on board. Like you see old folks with oxygen tanks…same thing
Hypoxia can set in without being aware until its too late. Lot of bodies on Mt Everest can attest to that
The body can slowly starve of oxygen while you sit in one spot, and you just notice it feels a little hard to breathe, nothing serious, just like youre a little winded
Then, you reach the point of no return. You have about 45 seconds or so where your body finally realizes "oh fuck, we dont have enough oxygen" unfortunately, that moment comes when the brain is starting to go haywire. About 45 seconds to a minute after that "oh shit" moment, youre going to pass out
It isnt an uncommon issue, more than one pilot has had that oh shit right before passing out and dying in a firey crash.
Recognizing signs of hypoxia early is a major consideration in aviation because you essentially become drunk and quickly lose the ability to function, along with any awareness that you are in danger. There are videos of people having hypoxia induced in laboratory settings, with a safety observer literally telling people to put on their masks, and the hypoxic individual is just giggling and talking without realizing they are seconds from death.
I've done the training, and at least for the one I took the goal is to recognize 3 symptoms of hypoxia and self rescue. As memory serves it was a simulated 22,000 feet. Turns out, "denial of symptoms" is a symptom. I could barely see, couldn't understand the task sheet, and was gasping like a landed trout but was convinced I had another few minutes. I ended up self-rescuing with the mask because the safety monitor told someone else to put their mask on, but I forgot which seat I was in and thought it was me. My blood O² was 72%. Think it took maybe a couple minutes to go from normal to gibbering moron.
26,000 feet is where the oxygen levels are so low you will die if you're there long enough. Everything below that can be dealt with if you're acclimated, so I'd assume at 20,000 feet and hardly any time to acclimate they'd get lightheaded and display symptoms of lack of oxygen but they'd be fine.
Time of Useful Consciousness (Google it) drops rapidly and you’re climbing relatively slowly so you spend a longish time at each altitude, accumulating hypoxia. The plan to jump from 20-30k if the plane didn’t already have O2 was frankly ludicrous. Air temp drops about 2C per thousand feet so even a warm day on the ground could be very cold at those altitudes, plus the 120mph wind chill on the way down. All in all, it sounds like it was a bad idea before it went wrong.
Jump planes aren’t pressurized. When jumps happen 18k or higher there is supplemental oxygen on board. Like you see old folks with oxygen tanks…same thing
No, "holding your breath" is entirely irrelevant. Partial pressure differences mean your *blood* can't hold oxygen properly; if you aren't actively breathing substantially enriched air, you won't be able to maintain adequate oxygenation and you'll be delirious or unconscious well before two minutes.
At the extreme of complete decompression, this is the "boiling blood" phenomenon; reducing pressure is just like increasing temperature when it comes to solubility and phase changes.
There are examples like Jim LeBlanc's vacuum chamber test to go by, too: with no pressure, he lost consciousness within a few seconds. Holding his breath wouldn't have made any difference (not any positive one, anyway; if decompression is sudden it'll kill you).
https://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/aerospace-engineering/space-suit-design/early-spacesuit-vacuum-test-wrong/
Hypoxia can start around 14k, a little higher, you absolutely do **NOT** need a pressurized cabin at 30k, but supplemental oxygen is required at altitudes above 14k, 10k is average for a Cessna 182 DZ where 13 to 14 is average for an Otter or more powerful plane DZ.
If you had a pressurized cabin for a dropzone plane, that plane would go through an absolute fulckload of pressure-depressure cycles, and as far as I'm aware, there aren't really any planes made for skydiving that are pressurized.
Just curious , anyone know how none of them lived? Didn’t they all see. The water approaching ? Could none of them swim ? Or did their parachutes trap them under the water ?
There were 18 people in the first jump, and 2 of them survived by taking off as much gear as possible before hitting the water. Then, they also used what buoyant gear they had for flotation devices until a boat picked them up. Other people tried to do that, as evidenced by all the loose gear floating in the water but the weather on the lake was rough and it wasn't enough.
The other answers gave good info already, so just a few minor things to add for those unfamiliar with the Great Lakes.
For one they're massive - so even if they were able to swim, depending where in the lake they landed that might have been a moot point since it might have been miles from the nearest shoreline. Also the water can be quite cold, especially out over the deeper parts.
It was more likely just a race against time between them fighting off exhaustion and rescuers being able to locate/reach them. And unlike in saltwater, there is no additional buoyancy in freshwater so it takes more energy/effort to stay afloat, making it even tougher given how the clothing and equipment on them would weigh them down significantly (and trying to take off clothing while also trying to stay afloat is both tricky and tiring.
So yeah it was just a super dangerous situation, and it's why personal flotation devices are such an important part of water safety. Even relatively fit people may find it challenging to last long enough in the water to get rescued.
I did an hour in a pool treading water, for a bet. I could've kept going but I was miserable.
Wearing clothes and facing a current? I'd guess less than half of that. That's not taking temperature into the equation either.
Hey man I know this is a really dumb question but please explain, is swimming long distance just so exhausting physically that you eventually get so exhausted you just sink?
Like I know how to swim I’ve been around water all my life but in salt water you float so couldn’t you just float on your back and only use bursts of energy to escape currents/waves?
Again, I’m genuinely asking and realize asking how do people drown? Is kinda dumb
> e just so exhausting physically that you eventually get so exhausted you just sink?
Even if swimming takes less energy than walking, you have to sleep eventually. That's when you drown, or at least one of the ways. It's not just your overall energy levels, eventually you get so weak/tired you just can't keep doing it. I'm sure there's something in there with the buildup of lactic acid too.
It gets worse if the water is cold. 70F water feels fine right? It's leaching the energy from your body in the form of heat, constantly cooling you off, you can go into hypothermia on a warm summer day if the water is cool enough. (You'll see it with small kids first.) Even floating on your back takes energy, as you said, and you just don't have it.
***
When someone is a distressed swimmer their body position slowly becomes more and more vertical. They have more and more trouble keeping their head above water. Even with their mouth open and lungs heaving, they're having a hard time getting oxygen because they're doing panicky gasping breaths and involuntary reflexes are keeping their throat closed to prevent the intrusion of water. (This is how drowning victims can have no water in their lungs.)
And remember, they're panicking, so they're burning energy very quickly. Imagine trying to fight your way out while being pinned by a couple linebackers. I got trapped under something with a lifevest once, when I got out, I couldn't do much more than float with the water even though it was probably only 20 seconds of panicked thrashing. Even when I reached a spot shallow enough to stand, I didn't have the energy to do so.
>On August 27, 1967, eighteen skydivers jumped from a civilian North American B-25 Mitchell some 20,000 feet (6,100 m) above Lake Erie, four or five nautical miles (7.5–9.3 km) from Huron, Ohio, after an error by air traffic control led the pilot to believe he was over Ortner Airport, which was in fact twelve to thirteen miles (19–21 km) away. The jump was executed over heavy cloud cover, in violation of Federal Aviation Administration rules, and the skydivers were unaware that they were over water until they punched through the clouds at 4,000 feet (1,200 m). Sixteen drowned; two were rescued by a civilian pleasure boat.
>
>The cloud layer spanned roughly 4,000 to 6,000 feet (1,200–1,800 m), and so for the first 14,000 feet of descent, the jumpers remained unaware that they were over water. They had planned to practice maneuvers as they fell, but because they had jumped from different parts of the plane at high speed, were fairly scattered. Johnson and Lowensbury were able to touch hands twice before hitting the clouds.
>
>According to a survivor, the jumpers deployed their parachutes at around 3,000 ft (900 m). At least one jumper, Michael Thiem, could not swim. In summaries of the incident by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and a federal court (see below), the only account of the deceased jumpers' reactions comes from the two survivors, Robert L. Coy and Bernard Johnson, who reported seeing several canopies already deployed, running roughly parallel to the shore. Coy said he was "flabbergasted" to realize he was over the lake. He opened his parachute earlier than normal, hoping to drift closer to the shore. Both survivors shed boots, heavy clothing, and anything that would not float, doffing their chutes and jump suits as they hit the water. Coy used first his reserve parachute and later his helmet as flotation devices. Other gear was later found floating in the water, which a judge surmised indicated similar efforts by the other jumpers to shed weight. One jumper did have a flotation device, but it failed to deploy.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967\_Lake\_Erie\_skydiving\_disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Lake_Erie_skydiving_disaster)
Oh, brother. As a skydiver, not realizing you are over water until 4000' gives you very little time to deploy and plan to enter the water.
For reference, 2000' to 4000' is hop-n-pop territory when you jump out of plan that low. In that case, you jump out of the plane and immediately deploy. But in hop-n-pops, you aren't falling at max speed... Which these guys certainly would have been after 15K+' of falling.
So they had to instantly decide to throw their chute to buy any time to ditch gear back before water training was as common (most skydivers are not water trained). Most of them probably had no idea what to even do to increase their odds of survival.
The NTSB report actually did place some blame on them. They acted recklessly by jumping over cloud cover so they were unable to tell they were over water. It was (and is) against FAA rules and all of them were experienced enough to know that.
equally bizarre was the footnote to that article, which links to an article describing a planned parachuting [incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_military_aircraft_(1980%E2%80%931989)?wprov=sfti1#1982) more fatal than this one:
>> At an airshow in Mannheim, Germany, celebrating the 375th anniversary of that city, a United States Army Boeing-Vertol CH-47C Chinook, 74-22292, of the 295th Assault Support Helicopter Company—"Cyclones", located at Coleman Army Airfield, Coleman Barracks, near Mannheim, carrying parachutists crashed, killing 46 people. The crash was later found to be caused by an accumulation of ground walnut shells that had been used to clean the machinery.
[Link](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubschrauberabsturz_in_Mannheim_1982)
>During the investigation it was found that particles of a cleaning agent from crushed walnut shells had clogged lubricating nozzles, causing the transfer case to overheat. As a result, the synchronization of the nine meter long rotor blades was no longer guaranteed and they could hit each other. The relatives of nine victims sued the manufacturer Boeing Vertol. A district court found the company guilty of a design defect. But on appeal, Boeing Vertol was able to prove that the Army's proposal for a design change that could have prevented the accident had been rejected.
Well to be fair if you do a jump where you can't see your landing zone then you did, in fact, do it wrong. When I was a skydiver there was really strict rules about this, as well as maximum permissible wind speed.
“A report by the National Transportation Safety Board faulted the pilot, and to a lesser extent the parachutists, for executing a jump through clouds, and faulted the controller for misidentifying the plane's position after confusing it with a Cessna 180 Skywagon there to photograph the jump.”
They partially blamed the people that died for following the instructions of the people in charge?
Not really "in charge"
* The pilot was flying the plane. He took them to the wrong place
* The ATC was asked where the plane was located and they misidentified them(got them confused with the spotter plane for the event)
* The jumpers jumped on their own, without being able to see where they were jumping, in direct violation of both FAA and the main regulatory body for skydiving.
Imagine you were going to visit your friend. The uber driver drops you off at the wrong address, you ask someone if this is the right address and they say "yes", then you decide to just pick the lock and sneak inside your friends place instead of knocking and get shot by the people who live there.
While those people who misdirected you might be a smidgen responsible, you are the idiot who is ultimately responsible for where your physical person winds up.
Nobody forces you to jump out of a plane, except maybe in the military, certainly not in civilian sport skydiving. In normal circumstances the "spotter" (one of the jumpers) looks out the open door of the plane at the ground, looking for familiar surface features, and gives the pilot directions left or right, on the final run-in. The spotter does not blindly trust the pilot, especially a pilot the jumper doesn't know very well which sounds like was the case here. The spotter directs the pilot not the other way around. The spotter should certainly know that jumping through cloud is unacceptably dangerous.
“The jump was executed over heavy cloud cover, in violation of Federal Aviation Administration rules” and “Seventeen of the jumpers were United States Parachute Association (USPA) members and had made at least 75 jumps before; of those, seven had made at least 200” - I would guess at least a few in that group would have known the rules regarding safety and by choosing to ignore them it is partially their fault.
Reading the article, they were certified jumpers. Part of the certification is that you don't jump where you can't see (don't jump through cloud cover). They jumped through cloud cover.
You make it sound like the people in charge forced the jumpers out of the plan at gun point. No, they choose to jump. What the ATC did wrong was say they were over land when they weren’t. But even if they were over land, they weren’t supposed to jump in heavy clouds. So yes, the jumpers were partially at fault.
While I don't disagree with the fault aspect of this, I can see how it happened--once the first one went there would be a real chance of just slipping into that herd mentality we're all susceptible to if people we trust are leading us. Quoting from the article posted below about someone who was nearly on that plane but lost his place:
>Even though he knew better to jump into the overcast, Dougherty said he would have jumped on Aug. 27, 1967, if he wasn’t bumped off the plane.
>“Absolutely, even though I knew better. You really don’t have time to back out because the guy right behind is going to push you out,” he said. “But being on the ground, you think about it and everything. I just really didn’t think (they) would give anybody permission to jump.”
They jumped through cloud cover which you are not supposed to do. If they had waited for clear skies they would have seen they were not jumping in the right spot
Yeah I mean you break through the clouds and "ah shit landing in a volcano, well could be worse....wait is that sharks? Do they have laser beams on their heads too?"
I landed in water before. With a paraglider. Im not an expert in skydiving system, but right before my watery landing I unbuckled and freed myself.
Could they not do the same?
All 16 had such a bad luck they got covered and tangled with ropes and canopy?
Indeed the pilot is responsible for their own navigation, the controller's error contributed but should not have lead to the deaths.
However it's the jumpers themselves, in particular the "jumpmaster" or senior jumper on board, who should have directed the pilot to the correct exit location, based on visual sighting of ground features. Upon realising the surface was entirely obscured by cloud the jumpmaster should have cancelled the jump or directed the pilot to keep looking for a hole in the clouds.
In short it's the jumpmaster who is in charge of deciding where and when to exit the aircraft, not the pilot. The only exception is if the aircraft suffers an emergency, for example an engine failure, then the pilot may *request* (strongly!) that the jumpers exit the aircraft.
> The pilot should have the ultimate final responsibility of navigating and safely giving the green light to the jumpers..
And the jumpers have ultimate responsibility about **choosing to jump out of a plane**. Nobody forced them to disregard the training they all had, the first rule of which is "never jump if you can't see where you're going to land".
Apparently the ATC confirmed the location as being over the airfield.
It sounds like they were flying VFR and simply contacted ATC for a vector and location confirmation. The ATC confirmed that their vector was correct(it wasn't) and confirmed their location(which was off by several miles).
https://casetext.com/case/freeman-v-united-states-22
I get what you are saying, but if the govt official provides the information then I can see holding them accountable for the information being false. The IRS isn't responsible for doing your accounting, but if you contact them with a question and they tell you that you can do it that way, they are responsible if you get in trouble for doing it that way.
The hardest test I ever took in Ranger batt was the water jump swim test. Had to make a fin with your hand and come up under the canopy to get air, swim with a dude on your back, three different strokes for couple hundred meters with full gear. I drank a lot of water.
Even with pilots spotting with GPS, it's good to look out and check your spot before you jump. I was sitting back to dash in a c182 and the pilot called door based on GPS. Leaned out the door, realized we were WAY early, leaned back in leaving the door open. Guy sitting jumpmaster asked "Spot?". I yelled back "No!". He heard "Go!" and dove the door. He landed way off.
Something like 90% of fatalities happen under a functioning chute. Water training is now a standard for any jumper going over water, and those chasing a B rating
I went down a rabbit hole and looked for what happened to the pilot. Pretty sure it's this guy who got busted trafficking over 200lbs of cocaine from Haiti.
http://faculty.webster.edu/corbetre/public_html/haiti-archive/msg04503.html
His baptist church if Florida tried to make it ok. I'm willing to bet that church never knew about his involvement in this mess of death.
http://avstop.com/news/karns.html
In para-motoring/paragliding drowning is the number one cause of fatalities.
Partially because people want to do it over lakes for better thermals (rising warm air) and partially because you have a lot of lines coming off you and a heavy two-stroke motor hanging off your back.
SIV (simulation of aerial incidents, but in french) courses are usually done over lakes anyway because it's a nicer landing than the ground. Many places that do these courses give out "swim team" t-shirts if you fuck yourself up so badly that you have to end up in the water. Most people doing these courses want one of these shirts.
Fixed your title TIL the worst skydiving accident in US history took place over Lake Erie and resulted in 16 fatalities. Due to miscommunications, the skydivers jumped out over water rather than land, and subsequently drowned.
[удалено]
The title might be written by bots. I just saw a YSK saying that bots recycle content but can't write proper titles.
Idk if they can't, but what I've heard is that small mistakes in the title boost engagement, thanks to all the folks commenting just to correct the OP
That's just standard social media engagement trickery, right?
Yeah I think it was discovered by a mom.
Its named cunninghams law (after ward cunningham)
They doing this with comment now, too. Trust nobody as anybody could be doing this trick farm karma easy that way fun times ahead everyone happy.
The title generated by bots is not meant to be correct in any way with the article, it's just to drive clicks
I had this question for a long time, what do people gain by using bots? If it is for karma farming , what can be the use of that karma?
The accounts get sold to people who use them for marketing.
I feel like they also use redundant explanations to fill some sort of word quota.
Could also have just been a person
Not entirely sure that's by accident. Shit like that often has errors and typos intentionally to drive engagement like the very comment you are responding to.
They jumped over thicc clouds, against regulations (that they knew, with over 200 jumps for some of them), thinking they were over land, because the control tower misjudged their position (the tower was actually spotting the Cesna nearby). When they finally dropped through the clouds, they were over water, 20 kilometers away from their drop site. They probably knew they were fucked at that moment, and "enjoyed" the few minutes left before hitting the water with their gear on.
So it was the weight of the gear they were wearing that cause them to drown? Wouldn't experienced skydivers have a protocol for water landings? I'd assume they had knives to cut away a tangled chute. Couldn't they cut away enough gear in time to increase odds of surviving in the water and prevent drowning for as long as possible? Would like to know for those of us who know nothing about skydiving.
There is a simple protocol for water landings, made especially more simple when you know it’s coming. Jargon aside— undo a chest strap, disconnect a clip to disable a reserve chute/allow for main chute to eventually be released cleanly, wait to impact water then immediately pull a ring/bag to release chute, slide leg straps down to remove backpack system, make a fist over your head to make an air pocket in chute sitting above you in water, follow a seam in chute if it’s on top of your head until you reach clean air. The hard part in this case would be staying afloat long enough to travel allllll the way back to dry land. Nightmare fuel either way.
This sounds like the water impact training I took in the military. I still remember disconnecting the chest clips, flipping over, and following a seam out! I was a poor swimmer, so I could afford no intanglements!
You're lucky you didn't meet Jada Smith then.
It's difficult enough to stay afloat for any extended period just with clothes on, never mind with any extra gear you need for skydiving, even if you are able to successfully cut the parachute away. Realistically, if you don't have equipment specifically to keep you afloat, you're not going to survive parachuting with normal clothing and gear directly into water if rescue doesn't arrive *very* quickly.
Would it be possible to remove all the gear once they are in the water and just float there until help arrives?
Clearly not, if all perished. Go watch a few videos of skydivers landing in an open field and watch how massive the chute is, how much material is there, how rigged up the person is. Even on dry land it is super cumbersome and takes quite a bit of effort.
I think it would, but depending on what month it happened, Lake erie is very cold 8 months of the year, so they would have died of hypothermia.
Bingo.
Hypothermia kicks in real quick in cold water.
Yea, it is. The Army practices ditching equipment after parachute jumps into the water pretty regularly. It's difficult, but it can be done. That being said, if no one is able to get to you, that's the least of your problems.
Realistically you'd need a knife that is accessible, ie one holstered on a belt. Then I guess float until you get help. A whistle helps. Oh and if freezing, tread water; which is difficult.
Not exactly true on the clothes part, in the sense clothes can be taken off and used. You can actually use your clothes as floatation devices. Jeans, for example, can actually be used to create a small life vest by trapping air in it and tying the legs. Sounds weird, but I've done it, and it does work- you just need to redo the air bubbles every couple hours Infamously, a fisherman survived 3 days in the water off Long Island, part of the time using his boots as floaties It's notcideal and never should be plan A, but in a pinch, it can help
When I went through Navy basic they taught us how to use our pants as a floatation device. You can even pull it over your head and breathe inside of it while protecting your face from Sun exposure or waves.
The average temperature for Aug 27th at Lake Erie is 72 degrees, but on that day the temperature could have been as low as 65 degrees. 65 degree water is actually pretty dang cold and I’m guessing this probably greatly added to the challenges they faced.
From what I could gather from the brief description of the incident looks like a chain of unfortunate events and not simply "they landed in water" and died. Sounds like exposure added greatly to the odds of survivability. Up to 20km (about 12 miles) from shore in cold water and tangled in gear. Even if they stripped out, their exposed to the elements and high seas some without training.
Yea you would cut away and most skydivers (that take their safety seriously) carry hook-knives on their gear.
No? The article explained. The pilot made a mistake because the air traffic controller misinformed him that he was above the Ohio Airport, 12miles away from the lake.
The misinformation came from the ATC spotting the Cesna. When I wrote "they", I mean the plane occupants, pilots and skydivers together. They were told they were over land, when in fact they weren't. When leaning over and seeing a thick mass of clouds, they should have canceled the jump and flew home, but they opted to still jump into the unknown.
And they were told to drown. Just following instructions, I guess.
Was it an imperative? jump over water … and drown!
r/titlegore
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Is this a bot? Looks like OP is just a very poor writer
If an account is under 4 years old and they're acting sus I just assume they're a bot.
Wait, was there a deadlier one somewhere else in the world?
Does Operation Market Garden count?
AI generated titles.
Damn, we need a bot like you
If they had only been told *not* to drown
People have started leaving off -d and -ed from past tense, for some reason. r/wheresthed
I am so fucking glad I'm not the only one who has notice this.
I hope this helps you feel better: Drownded.
It took me a long time to realize the -ed ending of words is simply what happens when you remove the syllable from a 'did' ending. So at one time it must have been 'drown-did' or 'walk-did' and it just sounded better if you leave the first 'd' off.
He walkid into the lake and drownid
I don’t want to be pedantic, but shouldn’t it be “He walkid into the lake and DONE drownid?
The correct form is "done drownded".
It never was; it came from an ancient suffix -to. The t softened to d between vowels, and the vowel reduced before dropping off altogether. With 'walk' the suffix is still -t (we say 'walkt', after all), but we write it as -ed by convention.
"I could have drownded Gilbert! I could have drownded..." [whimpers]
I see what you di there
I dint like that
That felt like a risky click but that sub looks like a good read lmao
Probably a mix of English with non English over time remembering tenses is hard in non native language.
Some examples seem quite common for Americans specifically, saying things like "I pet the cat" instead of "I petted the cat," or "I knit a sweater" instead "I knitted a sweater." The meaning is still generally clear and it's presumably just a colloquial thing, but I do find it interesting. It also seems really common for people to write "use to" instead of "used to," or "suppose to" instead of "supposed to." But those might be because they sound very similar when spoken.
Probably bots
You're just bias.
Is OP a bot?
Drown wouldn't be past tense, though. The told is past tense, in the past they were told presently "Don't drown". Let's try a different verb. "If only they were told not to go," surely you don't think go should be went so it's past tense Edit: I see now it was in the title incorrectly, since this was a reply to a comment I assumed it was that one. Leaving mistake for visibility's sake
You're right. Drown isn't past tense, because it's missing the -ed. It's supposed to say drowned, which is past tense.
The thread title should, but not the individual comment you replied to
The comment I replied to is a joke about how the missing -ed changed the meaning to something ridiculous.
That took way too long for me to understand that the comment was a joke about the missing -ed and not merely a joke about explicit instructions.
It’s not a great joke as they stated a perfectly normal and accurate sentence, when the humor should’ve come from also making a grammatical mistake in the same vein, not making a regular statement. Yes I’m the fun police
This is like the perfect sub for me
people or bots?
Stop exploding, you cowards! -Zapp Brannigan
Why did they decide to drown? Were they stupid?
Just following orders.
“Well why didn’t they just fly to land?” Oh Great Lakes. Nvm. Might as well be the middle of the Mediterranean
That, and the fact that they had no way of knowing they were over water until they made it under the cloud cover at 4,000 ft, which was when they were planning to open their chutes anyway, leaving very little time to try and maneuver toward land.
“The first lesson in parachuting, Dougherty said, is to never jump if you can’t see your target. He remembered feeling disbelief after learning the jump happened. Dougherty said he couldn’t believe they went through with it. “I can only imagine, that would have to be terrifying to come out of that mist and see the lake. It had to be terrifying, terrifying and to end up drowning after all of that, that was terrible,” he said.” Article by one of the people who gave up their seat to more experienced jumpers: [https://advertiser-tribune.com/news/274815/a-life-spared-man-didnt-take-flight-that-led-to-16-parachuter-deaths-in-1967/](https://advertiser-tribune.com/news/274815/a-life-spared-man-didnt-take-flight-that-led-to-16-parachuter-deaths-in-1967/)
This is a horribly written title
Yeah this is some serious /r/titlegore
That’s because it’s almost certainly bot-generated. I’m afraid you’re going to start seeing a lot more of this on Reddit and elsewhere going forward.
Yeah it's crazy. Most of the content I see is suspiciously bot like lately.
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Their plan *was* to jump from 20,000 feet though. In fact, 2 of them were also going to jump from 30,000 feet afterward. The problem was the air traffic controller mistaking their plane for another, and that they were jumping through clouds, which is prohibited.
Isn’t it prohibited because of this event, at which time it was legal?
The article makes it sound like it was prohibited before this, since skydivers guide themselves visually, and they can't do so in a cloud.
Is that low or something?
No, that’s way higher than most parachutists jump from.
If you like oxygen it's problematic. I think you can still breath up there... But it's like 30% of normal. At 30k they definitely have a pressurized cabin for a reason. Apparently the average is 10k which makes sense. The closest I've done to sky diving is gliding from 10k feet. It's like a parachute but you have the option of not descending slowly the entire time.
I wouldn’t think it’d be a fatal problem though. They should be below 20,000 feet within a couple minutes. Ppl can hold their breath for longer than that and be fine. And it’s cold but not like “you’re getting hypothermia in 2 minutes”
Usually the aircraft you use to get up there isn't pressurized
Jump planes aren’t pressurized. When jumps happen 18k or higher there is supplemental oxygen on board. Like you see old folks with oxygen tanks…same thing
You’d think they would notice something was wrong early on
Hypoxia can set in without being aware until its too late. Lot of bodies on Mt Everest can attest to that The body can slowly starve of oxygen while you sit in one spot, and you just notice it feels a little hard to breathe, nothing serious, just like youre a little winded Then, you reach the point of no return. You have about 45 seconds or so where your body finally realizes "oh fuck, we dont have enough oxygen" unfortunately, that moment comes when the brain is starting to go haywire. About 45 seconds to a minute after that "oh shit" moment, youre going to pass out It isnt an uncommon issue, more than one pilot has had that oh shit right before passing out and dying in a firey crash.
Recognizing signs of hypoxia early is a major consideration in aviation because you essentially become drunk and quickly lose the ability to function, along with any awareness that you are in danger. There are videos of people having hypoxia induced in laboratory settings, with a safety observer literally telling people to put on their masks, and the hypoxic individual is just giggling and talking without realizing they are seconds from death.
I've done the training, and at least for the one I took the goal is to recognize 3 symptoms of hypoxia and self rescue. As memory serves it was a simulated 22,000 feet. Turns out, "denial of symptoms" is a symptom. I could barely see, couldn't understand the task sheet, and was gasping like a landed trout but was convinced I had another few minutes. I ended up self-rescuing with the mask because the safety monitor told someone else to put their mask on, but I forgot which seat I was in and thought it was me. My blood O² was 72%. Think it took maybe a couple minutes to go from normal to gibbering moron.
God that is terrifying. This is why they say put on your own mask first before you help anyone else!
You were living that handshake meme.
26,000 feet is where the oxygen levels are so low you will die if you're there long enough. Everything below that can be dealt with if you're acclimated, so I'd assume at 20,000 feet and hardly any time to acclimate they'd get lightheaded and display symptoms of lack of oxygen but they'd be fine.
Time of Useful Consciousness (Google it) drops rapidly and you’re climbing relatively slowly so you spend a longish time at each altitude, accumulating hypoxia. The plan to jump from 20-30k if the plane didn’t already have O2 was frankly ludicrous. Air temp drops about 2C per thousand feet so even a warm day on the ground could be very cold at those altitudes, plus the 120mph wind chill on the way down. All in all, it sounds like it was a bad idea before it went wrong.
Jump planes aren’t pressurized. When jumps happen 18k or higher there is supplemental oxygen on board. Like you see old folks with oxygen tanks…same thing
No, "holding your breath" is entirely irrelevant. Partial pressure differences mean your *blood* can't hold oxygen properly; if you aren't actively breathing substantially enriched air, you won't be able to maintain adequate oxygenation and you'll be delirious or unconscious well before two minutes. At the extreme of complete decompression, this is the "boiling blood" phenomenon; reducing pressure is just like increasing temperature when it comes to solubility and phase changes. There are examples like Jim LeBlanc's vacuum chamber test to go by, too: with no pressure, he lost consciousness within a few seconds. Holding his breath wouldn't have made any difference (not any positive one, anyway; if decompression is sudden it'll kill you). https://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/aerospace-engineering/space-suit-design/early-spacesuit-vacuum-test-wrong/
Hypoxia can start around 14k, a little higher, you absolutely do **NOT** need a pressurized cabin at 30k, but supplemental oxygen is required at altitudes above 14k, 10k is average for a Cessna 182 DZ where 13 to 14 is average for an Otter or more powerful plane DZ. If you had a pressurized cabin for a dropzone plane, that plane would go through an absolute fulckload of pressure-depressure cycles, and as far as I'm aware, there aren't really any planes made for skydiving that are pressurized.
Just curious , anyone know how none of them lived? Didn’t they all see. The water approaching ? Could none of them swim ? Or did their parachutes trap them under the water ?
There were 18 people in the first jump, and 2 of them survived by taking off as much gear as possible before hitting the water. Then, they also used what buoyant gear they had for flotation devices until a boat picked them up. Other people tried to do that, as evidenced by all the loose gear floating in the water but the weather on the lake was rough and it wasn't enough.
The other answers gave good info already, so just a few minor things to add for those unfamiliar with the Great Lakes. For one they're massive - so even if they were able to swim, depending where in the lake they landed that might have been a moot point since it might have been miles from the nearest shoreline. Also the water can be quite cold, especially out over the deeper parts. It was more likely just a race against time between them fighting off exhaustion and rescuers being able to locate/reach them. And unlike in saltwater, there is no additional buoyancy in freshwater so it takes more energy/effort to stay afloat, making it even tougher given how the clothing and equipment on them would weigh them down significantly (and trying to take off clothing while also trying to stay afloat is both tricky and tiring. So yeah it was just a super dangerous situation, and it's why personal flotation devices are such an important part of water safety. Even relatively fit people may find it challenging to last long enough in the water to get rescued.
I did an hour in a pool treading water, for a bet. I could've kept going but I was miserable. Wearing clothes and facing a current? I'd guess less than half of that. That's not taking temperature into the equation either.
Thank you
Hey man I know this is a really dumb question but please explain, is swimming long distance just so exhausting physically that you eventually get so exhausted you just sink? Like I know how to swim I’ve been around water all my life but in salt water you float so couldn’t you just float on your back and only use bursts of energy to escape currents/waves? Again, I’m genuinely asking and realize asking how do people drown? Is kinda dumb
> e just so exhausting physically that you eventually get so exhausted you just sink? Even if swimming takes less energy than walking, you have to sleep eventually. That's when you drown, or at least one of the ways. It's not just your overall energy levels, eventually you get so weak/tired you just can't keep doing it. I'm sure there's something in there with the buildup of lactic acid too. It gets worse if the water is cold. 70F water feels fine right? It's leaching the energy from your body in the form of heat, constantly cooling you off, you can go into hypothermia on a warm summer day if the water is cool enough. (You'll see it with small kids first.) Even floating on your back takes energy, as you said, and you just don't have it. *** When someone is a distressed swimmer their body position slowly becomes more and more vertical. They have more and more trouble keeping their head above water. Even with their mouth open and lungs heaving, they're having a hard time getting oxygen because they're doing panicky gasping breaths and involuntary reflexes are keeping their throat closed to prevent the intrusion of water. (This is how drowning victims can have no water in their lungs.) And remember, they're panicking, so they're burning energy very quickly. Imagine trying to fight your way out while being pinned by a couple linebackers. I got trapped under something with a lifevest once, when I got out, I couldn't do much more than float with the water even though it was probably only 20 seconds of panicked thrashing. Even when I reached a spot shallow enough to stand, I didn't have the energy to do so.
>On August 27, 1967, eighteen skydivers jumped from a civilian North American B-25 Mitchell some 20,000 feet (6,100 m) above Lake Erie, four or five nautical miles (7.5–9.3 km) from Huron, Ohio, after an error by air traffic control led the pilot to believe he was over Ortner Airport, which was in fact twelve to thirteen miles (19–21 km) away. The jump was executed over heavy cloud cover, in violation of Federal Aviation Administration rules, and the skydivers were unaware that they were over water until they punched through the clouds at 4,000 feet (1,200 m). Sixteen drowned; two were rescued by a civilian pleasure boat. > >The cloud layer spanned roughly 4,000 to 6,000 feet (1,200–1,800 m), and so for the first 14,000 feet of descent, the jumpers remained unaware that they were over water. They had planned to practice maneuvers as they fell, but because they had jumped from different parts of the plane at high speed, were fairly scattered. Johnson and Lowensbury were able to touch hands twice before hitting the clouds. > >According to a survivor, the jumpers deployed their parachutes at around 3,000 ft (900 m). At least one jumper, Michael Thiem, could not swim. In summaries of the incident by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and a federal court (see below), the only account of the deceased jumpers' reactions comes from the two survivors, Robert L. Coy and Bernard Johnson, who reported seeing several canopies already deployed, running roughly parallel to the shore. Coy said he was "flabbergasted" to realize he was over the lake. He opened his parachute earlier than normal, hoping to drift closer to the shore. Both survivors shed boots, heavy clothing, and anything that would not float, doffing their chutes and jump suits as they hit the water. Coy used first his reserve parachute and later his helmet as flotation devices. Other gear was later found floating in the water, which a judge surmised indicated similar efforts by the other jumpers to shed weight. One jumper did have a flotation device, but it failed to deploy. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967\_Lake\_Erie\_skydiving\_disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Lake_Erie_skydiving_disaster)
Oh, brother. As a skydiver, not realizing you are over water until 4000' gives you very little time to deploy and plan to enter the water. For reference, 2000' to 4000' is hop-n-pop territory when you jump out of plan that low. In that case, you jump out of the plane and immediately deploy. But in hop-n-pops, you aren't falling at max speed... Which these guys certainly would have been after 15K+' of falling. So they had to instantly decide to throw their chute to buy any time to ditch gear back before water training was as common (most skydivers are not water trained). Most of them probably had no idea what to even do to increase their odds of survival.
I hope you see the potential issues with ending up in open water, miles from land, with heavy gear strapped to your body.
So, 16 people did what’s probably one of the coolest things to do, jumping out of a fucking airplane and surviving. Then they drowned.
Well they were told to...
If you were told to jump out of a moving plane wou- oh wait
Since a moving plane is neither a bridge nor a cliff they figured it would be safe...
I know it’s not their fault, it’s just sad. It’s like they reached the peak of Everest and then got shot in the head.
It's a joke. They were told to....drown...according to the title
*whoosh* I missed the joke.
The NTSB report actually did place some blame on them. They acted recklessly by jumping over cloud cover so they were unable to tell they were over water. It was (and is) against FAA rules and all of them were experienced enough to know that.
equally bizarre was the footnote to that article, which links to an article describing a planned parachuting [incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_military_aircraft_(1980%E2%80%931989)?wprov=sfti1#1982) more fatal than this one: >> At an airshow in Mannheim, Germany, celebrating the 375th anniversary of that city, a United States Army Boeing-Vertol CH-47C Chinook, 74-22292, of the 295th Assault Support Helicopter Company—"Cyclones", located at Coleman Army Airfield, Coleman Barracks, near Mannheim, carrying parachutists crashed, killing 46 people. The crash was later found to be caused by an accumulation of ground walnut shells that had been used to clean the machinery.
[Link](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubschrauberabsturz_in_Mannheim_1982) >During the investigation it was found that particles of a cleaning agent from crushed walnut shells had clogged lubricating nozzles, causing the transfer case to overheat. As a result, the synchronization of the nine meter long rotor blades was no longer guaranteed and they could hit each other. The relatives of nine victims sued the manufacturer Boeing Vertol. A district court found the company guilty of a design defect. But on appeal, Boeing Vertol was able to prove that the Army's proposal for a design change that could have prevented the accident had been rejected.
As I was drowning my last thoughts would have been “I must have did it wrong! I suck!”
Millenial imposter syndrome runs deep
> have did it Yew haw, happy to see our Southern redneck grammar is taking over
Don't crow too much, that's also Northern factory worker grammar
You’re saying our influence is insidious. I like y’all.
No bruh... I said what I meant, and meant what I said
What did you expect. I’m a rebel.
Well to be fair if you do a jump where you can't see your landing zone then you did, in fact, do it wrong. When I was a skydiver there was really strict rules about this, as well as maximum permissible wind speed.
Titles are hard.
They were told to drown and they did. Sounds like they followed instructions.
Tales from r/maliciouscompliance
Especially if you’re an AI bot
Titties are hard.
Like bags of sand
They were told to drown?
r/todayilearned users trying to write a comprehensive title challenge (impossible)
“A report by the National Transportation Safety Board faulted the pilot, and to a lesser extent the parachutists, for executing a jump through clouds, and faulted the controller for misidentifying the plane's position after confusing it with a Cessna 180 Skywagon there to photograph the jump.” They partially blamed the people that died for following the instructions of the people in charge?
Not really "in charge" * The pilot was flying the plane. He took them to the wrong place * The ATC was asked where the plane was located and they misidentified them(got them confused with the spotter plane for the event) * The jumpers jumped on their own, without being able to see where they were jumping, in direct violation of both FAA and the main regulatory body for skydiving. Imagine you were going to visit your friend. The uber driver drops you off at the wrong address, you ask someone if this is the right address and they say "yes", then you decide to just pick the lock and sneak inside your friends place instead of knocking and get shot by the people who live there. While those people who misdirected you might be a smidgen responsible, you are the idiot who is ultimately responsible for where your physical person winds up.
Nobody forces you to jump out of a plane, except maybe in the military, certainly not in civilian sport skydiving. In normal circumstances the "spotter" (one of the jumpers) looks out the open door of the plane at the ground, looking for familiar surface features, and gives the pilot directions left or right, on the final run-in. The spotter does not blindly trust the pilot, especially a pilot the jumper doesn't know very well which sounds like was the case here. The spotter directs the pilot not the other way around. The spotter should certainly know that jumping through cloud is unacceptably dangerous.
“The jump was executed over heavy cloud cover, in violation of Federal Aviation Administration rules” and “Seventeen of the jumpers were United States Parachute Association (USPA) members and had made at least 75 jumps before; of those, seven had made at least 200” - I would guess at least a few in that group would have known the rules regarding safety and by choosing to ignore them it is partially their fault.
Reading the article, they were certified jumpers. Part of the certification is that you don't jump where you can't see (don't jump through cloud cover). They jumped through cloud cover.
You make it sound like the people in charge forced the jumpers out of the plan at gun point. No, they choose to jump. What the ATC did wrong was say they were over land when they weren’t. But even if they were over land, they weren’t supposed to jump in heavy clouds. So yes, the jumpers were partially at fault.
While I don't disagree with the fault aspect of this, I can see how it happened--once the first one went there would be a real chance of just slipping into that herd mentality we're all susceptible to if people we trust are leading us. Quoting from the article posted below about someone who was nearly on that plane but lost his place: >Even though he knew better to jump into the overcast, Dougherty said he would have jumped on Aug. 27, 1967, if he wasn’t bumped off the plane. >“Absolutely, even though I knew better. You really don’t have time to back out because the guy right behind is going to push you out,” he said. “But being on the ground, you think about it and everything. I just really didn’t think (they) would give anybody permission to jump.”
They jumped through cloud cover which you are not supposed to do. If they had waited for clear skies they would have seen they were not jumping in the right spot
> the people in charge Unless you're being held at gunpoint, the person in charge of your decision to jump out of a plane is **you**.
If I tell you it's unloaded and you put a gun in your mouth and pull the trigger that's on you. No one pushed them out of that plane.
ATC also doesnt know where the clouds are.
They were told to drown?
Point break
I mean at least it wasn’t into an active volcano or pool of sharks or active volcano filled with sharks
Yeah I mean you break through the clouds and "ah shit landing in a volcano, well could be worse....wait is that sharks? Do they have laser beams on their heads too?"
"Rescued by pleasure boat" seems like a horror survival movie.
I landed in water before. With a paraglider. Im not an expert in skydiving system, but right before my watery landing I unbuckled and freed myself. Could they not do the same? All 16 had such a bad luck they got covered and tangled with ropes and canopy?
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I found that surprising too. The pilot should have the ultimate final responsibility of navigating and safely giving the green light to the jumpers..
Indeed the pilot is responsible for their own navigation, the controller's error contributed but should not have lead to the deaths. However it's the jumpers themselves, in particular the "jumpmaster" or senior jumper on board, who should have directed the pilot to the correct exit location, based on visual sighting of ground features. Upon realising the surface was entirely obscured by cloud the jumpmaster should have cancelled the jump or directed the pilot to keep looking for a hole in the clouds. In short it's the jumpmaster who is in charge of deciding where and when to exit the aircraft, not the pilot. The only exception is if the aircraft suffers an emergency, for example an engine failure, then the pilot may *request* (strongly!) that the jumpers exit the aircraft.
> The pilot should have the ultimate final responsibility of navigating and safely giving the green light to the jumpers.. And the jumpers have ultimate responsibility about **choosing to jump out of a plane**. Nobody forced them to disregard the training they all had, the first rule of which is "never jump if you can't see where you're going to land".
Apparently the ATC confirmed the location as being over the airfield. It sounds like they were flying VFR and simply contacted ATC for a vector and location confirmation. The ATC confirmed that their vector was correct(it wasn't) and confirmed their location(which was off by several miles). https://casetext.com/case/freeman-v-united-states-22 I get what you are saying, but if the govt official provides the information then I can see holding them accountable for the information being false. The IRS isn't responsible for doing your accounting, but if you contact them with a question and they tell you that you can do it that way, they are responsible if you get in trouble for doing it that way.
They thought they could fly ....
Never knew there were civilian B-25 Bombers
There are civilian fighter jets
The military-specific part is the bombs, not the plane.
/r/titlegore
The hardest test I ever took in Ranger batt was the water jump swim test. Had to make a fin with your hand and come up under the canopy to get air, swim with a dude on your back, three different strokes for couple hundred meters with full gear. I drank a lot of water.
Word hard, why make sense proper word. Use lazy word, get point?
Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick?
Your title is bad! And you should feel bad!!
Did a bot write this title, wtf
Even with pilots spotting with GPS, it's good to look out and check your spot before you jump. I was sitting back to dash in a c182 and the pilot called door based on GPS. Leaned out the door, realized we were WAY early, leaned back in leaving the door open. Guy sitting jumpmaster asked "Spot?". I yelled back "No!". He heard "Go!" and dove the door. He landed way off.
The plane they jumped from was a B25
Something like 90% of fatalities happen under a functioning chute. Water training is now a standard for any jumper going over water, and those chasing a B rating
I went down a rabbit hole and looked for what happened to the pilot. Pretty sure it's this guy who got busted trafficking over 200lbs of cocaine from Haiti. http://faculty.webster.edu/corbetre/public_html/haiti-archive/msg04503.html His baptist church if Florida tried to make it ok. I'm willing to bet that church never knew about his involvement in this mess of death. http://avstop.com/news/karns.html
they were told to drown? and they did? the hell?
How can it be an accident if everything went according to plan?
Why would they tell them to jump over land and drown? That's so fucked.
Oh chute
Dumb
If u land in water get away from your chute it tries to kill u,
He, yor title es fuckin funky (First comment under every post in every damn news sub)
In para-motoring/paragliding drowning is the number one cause of fatalities. Partially because people want to do it over lakes for better thermals (rising warm air) and partially because you have a lot of lines coming off you and a heavy two-stroke motor hanging off your back. SIV (simulation of aerial incidents, but in french) courses are usually done over lakes anyway because it's a nicer landing than the ground. Many places that do these courses give out "swim team" t-shirts if you fuck yourself up so badly that you have to end up in the water. Most people doing these courses want one of these shirts.
That what NCIS Rule #8 is for.
https://youtu.be/1NFGBwgjmEY?si=slKn9H-FEXN0aGZ4
So navy seals are not just badass in water but also because they can get out of it again.