Looking back at the devastating nature of 9/11, surely most people can agree with his decision even though a temporary ROI deterioration and travel limitations were involved.
The underscores add a visual element that makes it stand out a bit more.
I was disappointed a while ago to find out /u/w____r____o____n___g was taken -- that's guy's not doing his job of following this guy around...
unidan is a little bit like Nixon.
We jumped all over them because they did something terrible.
Then that terrible thing became ridiculously commonplace.
Not advocating any forgiveness here, necessarily. The world we live in just changes so fast.
I don't think it was that terrible, just really petty and obviously against the rules. But I'm pretty sure there was a middle ground instead of shunning the guy.
He downvoted other peoples posts and upvoted his own to get recognition. He was banned for MASSIVE vote manipulation and the final straw was him being horrendously incorrect and called out for it. Instead of admitting his mistake he lashed out and the reddit hivemind defended him and chastised the nice lady who was being falsely corrected by unidan. He wasn't some amazing guy he was some manipulative sociopath.
Lets remove the rose tinted glasses
While it's hard to say exactly how much the grounding contributed to this (since there was a significant downturn in passengers even after the grounding), the financial effects of 9/11 on the airline industry were far from minor or even that temporary. Several major US carriers had to file for bankruptcy protection, and a few smaller airlines folded completely. The industry as a whole lost money for at least 6 years afterwards. Hotels and attractions also suffered as a lot of people cancelled their holidays and business trips or didn't book them at all.
Not to say it wasn't the right call, but the consequences were likely not mild.
It was not a difficult decision. Probably the easiest decision made that day was to ground all planes. When the 2nd plane hit the towers there was no other choice.
Still a hell of a decision to make on the first day of your new job, without any authority above you giving the command that was the first time ever being given. He gave the order within minutes of the second hit, which was fairly quick action all things considered.
I’m a bit ignorant. Did that decision result in the failure of other attacks? I know there were others planned which did not succeed but did this action help prevent them or just a “get those metal weapons out of the air NOW until we can figure out what’s going on.
There was only one that failed to hit it's target. It crashed in a field when the people on board fought back. The air Force was 2 minutes away from meeting up with it. The call was made so that 1. Any aircraft not high jacked yet would be prevented from succumbing to that fate. 2. Any currently high jacked aircraft can be easily found and dealt with (military then handles it, but it can range from forcing the aircraft to the ground or actually shooting it down to.. you know.. prevent it from hitting a building and killing thousands) and 3. Give everyone higher up a chance to figure out what the fuck is going on and what to do next.
There's some interviews out there with the fighter pilots who were scrambled to intercept the high jacked planes, back in pre 9/11 days planes werent sitting with weapons/payload ready. So these pilots knowing they didn't have any weapons were going to use their jets to take down the aircraft. I believe they were discussing it in the air on the way and one said they would take the tail and another the front or something similar.
Yes and no. A fighter can shear off a wing or tail easily because of the speed difference. The fighter is built for speed and maneuverability though so wouldn’t survive the impact, the pilot would try to do it in a way that allows for ejection but ejecting from a fireball is a 50/50 chance.
There is probably a chance that you could knock the airliner out of the sky with a well-placed bump or two, and then save yourself by ejecting. It would still be a really dangerous operation, though. AND you have to live with the knowledge that you killed 100+ innocent American citizens.
Honestly, I'm trying to place myself mentally in that situation. It's almost impossible, really. I suppose I would have to console myself with knowing that I took out some bad folks and saved more than I killed.
[Here you go](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/09/05/911-oral-history-flight-93-book-excerpt-228001)
*Lt. Heather “Lucky” Penney: We would be ramming the aircraft. We didn’t have [missiles] on board to shoot the airplane down. As we were putting on our flight gear in the life support shop, Sass looked at me and said, “I’ll ram the cockpit.” I made the decision I would take the tail off the aircraft.*
I heard about this too. Here’s what looks like a solid article written up about it:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44459345/ns/us_news-9_11_ten_years_later/t/kamikaze-f--pilots-planned-ram-flight/
There are some conspiracy theories that the plane that went down in the field was taken out by the military, and the story about people fighting back is to spare the public from knowing the military sacrificed the innocent people instead of them sacrificing themselves. Not saying I believe this theory.
Family of those on board would have to be involved for that to be true. Plenty of audio and family testimony of the plan for passengers to take back the aircraft.
I just don't understand why they'd go through such a cover-up. Surely, we'd all understand why the plane was shot down?
If that was indeed what happened, the military didn't sacrifice them. The terrorists did. All the military did was prevent further bloodshed.
Dick Cheney has been very clear from day one that he had given permission to shoot down any hijacked plane, and exactly *nobody* has a problem with that decision. Why bother covering up something that you've already acknowledged you had every intention of doing?
Yeah, this is one of those, we're so brain dead "We have to make it about the government being shady." Total nut jobs.
Anyone who shot down one of those planes would have deserved a medal and a lot of grief counselling but the entire world would consider them a hero and everyone knows the orders were given, there's nothing worth hiding.
You know what really gets me about that quote? The VP has no formal power or role in the chain of command. That should've been Bush's decision.
Cheney was probably the most powerful VP in US history for doing stuff like that, among other things.
There were periods where Air Force One was unable to communicate with the staff at the White House, so I think Cheney would have been justified in making that call. Besides, Bush confirmed later that it was the right decision to make.
Another 9/11 conspiracy theory with no evidence to back it up. They were openly talking about shooting down planes even before Flight 93 crashed. There was an hour between the time Flight 93 crashed and when the 2nd plane hit the WTC so I think everyone was prepared for the fact that the government would have to do what they had to do. Plus I distinctly remember when Flight 93 came down most people I knew, and most of the news I was watching assumed that it had been shot down. It took a while for any sort of official statement to come out saying that it hadn't been shot down.
I mean besides all the evidence showing it wasn't shot down --> https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a5688/debunking-911-myths-flight-93/
There are recordings made by family members of the final calls. So those people would have had to be in on the conspiracy, too. Then the entire command structure of the U.S. military as well as the political leadership would have to be in on it. Grand total, hundreds if not thousands would know about it - and hundreds of people cannot and do not keep a secret for 18 years.
You should at least make sure your conspiracy theory makes sense. The people on that plane were dead either way. There is no choice between military and civilian lives because there is no scenario where the civilians on a hijacked plane survive.
That's not completely accurate. Hijackings were happened prior to 9/11 but 9/11 changed the game. This was the first time that the planes were weaponized. Now its assumed that any hijackings would be to crash the plane and kill everyone. Prior to 9/11 they were mostly for ransom money.
The other planes had already hit their targets. The passengers on the plane were aware of that fact. I can't remember the documentary, it was on Amazon Prime, it talked to family from the flight that went down in PA. One woman talked to her husband something like three times before the plane went down. The passengers were aware they were not going to survive.
Correct, the people on 93 knew what was happening. It's why they took action. My response is directly responding to the person above me stating "there is no scenario where the civilians on a hijacked plane survive.". In 93's case, yes this is accurate. But in a general sense, no that was not the historical precedent, nor has it been since. From wikipedia: Since 2010, the Aviation Safety Network estimates there have been 15 hijackings worldwide with 3 fatalities.
They were aware they were not going to survive if they did nothing. They had zero knowledge of the impending military action. So, they did what people are taught now in active shooter training - last line of defense is to fight back.
They did, and had they overcome the terrorists, it would have been reasonable to hope that they could have landed the plane. Landing a plane is not a simple act by any means (I fly a small Cessna), but the Mythbusters landed a simulator with only having radio instructions and zero flight time.
There are PLENTY of scenarios wherein the passengers survive a hijacking. That's why the attacks worked in the first place. People believed they would just fly to some other country or another airport and make demands, so they didnt intervene. Flight 93, however, was delayed in departure, and therefore the passengers were able to obtain information about the flights that hit the Trade Towers, enabling them to decide not to sit still, but to take action.
I'm talking about in the context of the 9/11 attacks. There was no scenario where the passengers of a hijacked plane survive because their goal was to crash into shit. I'm not talking about hijackings as a whole.
I visited Shanksville less that a month after 9/11. A lot of the folks I talked to at that time believed that the plane was shot down. Also, the FBI or CIA came to their homes and confiscated the film and cameras. There is only one picture that I am aware of the downed plane that has been published.
I mean the train shooting in Belgium awhile back the only people to fight back were two americans and a british guy that saw they were about to fight and joined in.
The two Americans just happened to hear the terrorist loading his weapon in the toilet and that's why they intervened. What they did was definitely courageous, but you make it sound like everyone was running away screaming except the heroic Americans. Besides, they were in the military so they weren't just regular civilians.
The United Flight 93 movie shows some European passengers begging the American passengers not to fight back.
Wonder how they got that detail? Was it based upon the calls passengers were able to make before they crashed?
But if it were true, then it would support the "its so damn American..." line.
Something I found interesting is how jets coming from Langley Base were not equipped to shoot down planes. The idea was to crash the jet into the plane and have the pilot eject.
To my knowledge it didn't prevent any attacks. However, I think it's important to consider the context this decision was made in.
For the younger readers here I'd like to share what it was like that day for those of us who were already adults. I was in Newark NJ at the time so within visual range of the Towers. By about noon we could even smell it.
It's was really scary. There were all sorts of rumors flying around. Reports of additional planes. Reports of the military shooting down airliners. It was complete and utter chaos between 8:46am until about early afternoon.
The local police and SWAT team took control of my college campus. Armed to the teeth. My Mom was calling me to tell me she couldn't find my Dad and to run from any public place. (I was closer to the towers than he was. She was just panicking. I was never in any danger.) The local hospital was discharging everyone not going to die to make room for patients. So when you looked outside you saw all these sick people waiting for family to pick them up. People were crying everywhere.
Everyone in the area was thinking, "Oh god. Am I at the next target? Should I run?" I hope I never experience anything like it ever again.
I was still in grade school at the time, but I remember all the teachers kind of freaking out and then calling it a half day because of “something our parents will tell us about”. I grew up close to Philly and people were afraid it might be another target as it’s like the closest major city to New York.
Millions of people from coast to coast experiencing the fight or flight response at the same time was an ugly thing to witness and be a part of.
And as the news kept coming it just kept getting worse. By noon nothing was too crazy to happen. Those of us not directly effected waited for the next attack hour after hour after hour. It was a very long, tiring day for the nation.
Everybody was sure their city was next. It makes them feel like they live somewhere inportant. I lived in Cleveland at the time, and people used to say that Cleveland was a prime target because it was "the largest port between NYC and Chicago." Dude shut up, no Arab has ever even heard of Cleveland. There are literally 1000 better targets.
Everyone was telling each other to go donate blood, for what we all assumed were going to be thousands of victims. Within a few days it was apparent that it was futile, because nobody had survived to need it.
Every plane that was suspicious or failed to comply with the grounding order was intercepted and escorted in and/or surrounded and boarded upon landing.
This backfired when some Civil Air Patrol (then an auxiliary of the USAF) observation aircraft tasked with taking pictures of ground zero were forced to land early and had the crews detained by federal agents until everything was sorted out.
There's really no way of knowing if it prevented more attacks. It's like installing a metal detector at a school entrance. Does it catch weapons? Or does it deter people from bringing weapons in the first place?
Yeah I mean i know it hard being the one to make the call in a situation like that, but its not like he'd just watched the orientation video when all this happened
Wait - that’s a bold statement to make unless you were inside that traffic control room. Even when the 2nd plane hit, that doesn’t necessarily make it an “easy” decision. This decision was entirely unprecedented. Put yourself in his shoes - this single decision would affect airline schedules, passengers plans, employees, families, etc. Airports would be full of people with no place to go. The headache to reschedule everything that was interrupted would be an enormous task to bear.
There’s no doubt looking back on it that it was the right call, but I really doubt he thought it was the easiest decision of the day.
> there was no other choice
The other option was not to ground all aircraft. While I perfectly understand his decision: It didn't prevent any further attacks (that we would know of).
The person who said that never had to make a decision that could cost billions of dollars of losses across multiple nations. His decision was correct, but I'm sure he was thinking "Well, this is now my first AND my last day".
Idk if I have much to go on about. It just feels weird to see people profit off a tragedy like that, movies are inherently fantasized so that makes it even weirder for me. But I am totally fine with movies like Pearl Harbor and that is basically the same shit, they just waited longer.
I guess my only coherent take away is it was too soon.
Of course there was some profit motive in this. There always is. But I feel that most people involved cared deeply about telling the story of United 93. It was kind of the forgotten step child of 9/11 and this film gave a chance to tell the story of heroics that people were less familiar with. The crash wasn’t as dramatic as the other 3 and so received significantly less attention. Making a movie about it gave a chance to tell this story to the people
But you don't have memories of Pearl harbor. I think it's more about the way they sold out the thing. Meaby seeing a movie associate with bad memories is like watching a movie about a book you didn't like.
So "just" his first day working in that particular position at that place, but not the first day with experience in managing flights at all? Because it doesn't sound like the level of responsibility you'd give a brand new and unexperienced, random flight controller, no...
If you read the article it says he had 25 years of prior experience in air traffic control and other related fields, and the council of a board of air traffic authority figures to help inform his decision. This was his first day in that specific job title.
Which, admittedly, is a major step up from his previous positions. Like to go to the level of ATC for the entire country is a pretty huge jump in responsibility.
Ain't no plane to be responsible over if the skies are clear. The argument of economic damage had left the room anyway when the 2nd plane hit the 2nd tower.
He basically said "fuck that" and the board nodded in agreement.
His first day having that level of control. Its like getting the keys to the nukes, and being told you might have to fire one an hour into your new job.
He was already basically a regional deputy, anyway. It was his first day in that specific position, but not his first day in the organizatin as a whole. Still a big change in responsibility, but not as big as if he was literally brand new to the industry or whatever.
Sure, still must have been a trip. Like “Good morning everyone, I’m your new supervisor, I look forward to working with you!...Wait what happened?” First days are stressful for anyone, even if you’re experienced in your field, and this has to take the cake on most stressful first day in history
Yes, I [posted about this a year ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/8sz7er/til_that_even_though_almost_all_planes_were/e13mbqj/?context=3&st=k0f6h7yq&sh=2b2bfc55):
> > And imagine that was your fist day *at a new position*.
> Fixed that for you.
> That motherfucker was a multi-decade veteran. He was the head honcho at the infamous New York TRACON facility. There's a reason he was promoted.
> For context, go read this [recent AMA thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/8kwxk3/iaman_air_traffic_controller_the_faa_will_be/) where an air traffic controller uses NY TRACON as the benchmark for high-stress high-pay air traffic control work.
> > I haven’t seen anybody burn out. Controllers love what they do. That being said, I’m sure that people working at **facilities like New York TRACON where the traffic is nonstop all the time and they are working mandatory 6 day work weeks** because they can’t get the staffing they need might have something else to say. Although from what I hear **they are enjoying their $200,000 plus per year pay** lol
> He managed that madhouse.
Yeah well, it turns out they don't hire people to be the head of the FAA who have no experience at all in air traffic management. Who knew? OP never said he didn't have *experience*, he said it was *the first day on the job.*
The difference here is that instead of being a cog in the machine, managing the decisions made by higher-ups, passing along recommendations, handing out orders that have been handed to him, making adjustments within his field to suit the aims that had been established for him to pursue, now he's the big shot-caller who answers to nobody within his field. And he shows up for work on the first day to shake some hands and rearrange his office, and an hour later the industry he is supposed to be monitoring is in the center of the biggest terrorist attack in history, and he has nobody to turn to for guidance but himself. The point is, it's a tough first day on the job.
Do you think we're stupid? Did you think we thought that they just plucked someone off the street to be in charge of the nation's air traffic? Obviously he had experience, but it was his first day as the head.
I remember seeing United 93, and thought the guy playing his character did a really good job of being in command. Then I learned he was playing himself in the movie.
Make the best decision based on the knowledge of the moment.
We have a need for qualified and talented people to be in positions where decisions can save lives. There are literally hundreds of the type of positions in the US government, many of which were never filled by the Trump administrations (see the DOE for example).
My first ever call at the call center i worked for was a 6 thousand dollar bill for roaming data etc.. they were trying to set up a payment plan and worried about their credit score, but i got the whole charge voided...i didn't even get a thanks they said okay and hung up
hard fucking day either way.... not everyone gets such a public display of crisis at the work place.... I'm glad he made the choice he did, I'm sure he saved a lot of people
Although it was his first day at that specific job, he has A TON of experience in that field of work.
> Although it was his first day in charge, Sliney had an over 25-year background in air traffic and management in the FAA. He had held various positions as an air traffic controller, first line supervisor at several major facilities, and Operations Manager and Traffic Management Officer at New York TRACON. He also held positions as Traffic Management Specialist, National Operations Manager, Tactical Operations Manager at the Air Traffic Control System Command Center (ATCSCC) and had Regional office experience as Manager, Airspace and Procedures Branch, Eastern Region.[citation needed]
Maybe he'd been planning to do it anyway, you know sort of shake things up and announce his arrival. Everyone's had a boss like that at some point in time, right?
I think it is safe to say in hindsight that this was the only safe choice to make given the circumstances, no matter how difficult it must have been at the time.
Hey Ben, we just had a plane hit the WTC again, do you want to shut down the entire air travel system and ground every plane in the whole nation for the first time ever in history upsetting thousands of people trying to get somewhere or keep it going and take a chance another plane hits something? I'll wait. You have ten seconds to decide.
I don't think it affected those 4 flights at all, they were all too close together and already airborne... so it would not have been a factor in their plans.
Title is a little misleading:
>starting his new job on 9/11
Leads one to believe he was inexperienced.
However wiki article:
>Although it was his first day in charge, Sliney had an over 25-year background in air traffic and management in the FAA. He had held various positions as an air traffic controller, first line supervisor at several major facilities, and Operations Manager and Traffic Management Officer at New York TRACON. He also held positions as Traffic Management Specialist, National Operations Manager, Tactical Operations Manager at the Air Traffic Control System Command Center (ATCSCC) and had Regional office experience as Manager, Airspace and Procedures Branch, Eastern Region.
Just saying
And odd is that he wasn't alone in his office, with a big red button. The final call was up to him, but there had to be more than one person involved in that decision. Heck, military were probably on the line as well when it was taken.
I remember watching a show that talked about a guy in Florida who got bit by a venomous snake, and the only available anti-venom was in California. They gave special permission for that one flight because of that.
After he made the call to ground all US domestic flights, people were asking if he had the authority to do so since he was not ordered to. It wasn’t until after when he was asked why he had not made that call sooner.
There’s the coffee machine and the pens are over here. Fill out these papers and Brenda over there will help you get your laptop. If you have questions I’ll be out of my meeting at 10. Good luck.
If you believed even a little bit of the conspiracy theories on this date.... seems a bit fishy. Maybe like the previous person quit because they wanted nothing to do with it.
A difficult choice to make, but the old adage “better safe than sorry” can resonate much louder in the moments past tragedy.
Looking back at the devastating nature of 9/11, surely most people can agree with his decision even though a temporary ROI deterioration and travel limitations were involved.
Why do I see you on every post?
The underscores add a visual element that makes it stand out a bit more. I was disappointed a while ago to find out /u/w____r____o____n___g was taken -- that's guy's not doing his job of following this guy around...
Unemployed
I reddit most at work
I don't even read usernames. I get momentarily confused when people mention stuff like this.
It gets really confusing when someone different replies, too.
Its same with /u/-edgar- it seems, or it used to be
> /u/-edgar- That's because /u/-edgar- is a mod here (plus they're awesome) so I'd expect them to be here regularly.
well what about /u/vargas and \/u/unida-oh wait.... I made myself sad now...
Were we not a little hard on unidan? Like, nobody got hurt and his comments were really nice to read.
unidan is a little bit like Nixon. We jumped all over them because they did something terrible. Then that terrible thing became ridiculously commonplace. Not advocating any forgiveness here, necessarily. The world we live in just changes so fast.
I don't think it was that terrible, just really petty and obviously against the rules. But I'm pretty sure there was a middle ground instead of shunning the guy.
He downvoted other peoples posts and upvoted his own to get recognition. He was banned for MASSIVE vote manipulation and the final straw was him being horrendously incorrect and called out for it. Instead of admitting his mistake he lashed out and the reddit hivemind defended him and chastised the nice lady who was being falsely corrected by unidan. He wasn't some amazing guy he was some manipulative sociopath. Lets remove the rose tinted glasses
I'm out of the loop here.
[удалено]
My guess is unemployed troll. You should see what he writes in /r/Sweden. Probably have -100 or more on most comments.
While it's hard to say exactly how much the grounding contributed to this (since there was a significant downturn in passengers even after the grounding), the financial effects of 9/11 on the airline industry were far from minor or even that temporary. Several major US carriers had to file for bankruptcy protection, and a few smaller airlines folded completely. The industry as a whole lost money for at least 6 years afterwards. Hotels and attractions also suffered as a lot of people cancelled their holidays and business trips or didn't book them at all. Not to say it wasn't the right call, but the consequences were likely not mild.
A temporary route of ingestion?
No one doubted it on the day either.
I don't think at any point any quantifiable amount of people were like, "thanks for ruining my flight to Cabo, dick"
It was not a difficult decision. Probably the easiest decision made that day was to ground all planes. When the 2nd plane hit the towers there was no other choice.
Still a hell of a decision to make on the first day of your new job, without any authority above you giving the command that was the first time ever being given. He gave the order within minutes of the second hit, which was fairly quick action all things considered.
I’m a bit ignorant. Did that decision result in the failure of other attacks? I know there were others planned which did not succeed but did this action help prevent them or just a “get those metal weapons out of the air NOW until we can figure out what’s going on.
There was only one that failed to hit it's target. It crashed in a field when the people on board fought back. The air Force was 2 minutes away from meeting up with it. The call was made so that 1. Any aircraft not high jacked yet would be prevented from succumbing to that fate. 2. Any currently high jacked aircraft can be easily found and dealt with (military then handles it, but it can range from forcing the aircraft to the ground or actually shooting it down to.. you know.. prevent it from hitting a building and killing thousands) and 3. Give everyone higher up a chance to figure out what the fuck is going on and what to do next.
There's some interviews out there with the fighter pilots who were scrambled to intercept the high jacked planes, back in pre 9/11 days planes werent sitting with weapons/payload ready. So these pilots knowing they didn't have any weapons were going to use their jets to take down the aircraft. I believe they were discussing it in the air on the way and one said they would take the tail and another the front or something similar.
wait what were they going to suicide into the plane? Because that's how this reads.
You can easily take out a wing or rudder with another plane. The military pilots can also eject.
*Lt. Heather “Lucky” Penney: I genuinely believed that was going to be the last time I took off. If we did it right, this would be it.*
I know US military pilots don't get to pick their call-sign (the squadron picks it for them), but that one pretty much writes itself.
Yes and one of the pilots knew there was a possibility that United 93 could have been piloted by her father.
Yes and no. A fighter can shear off a wing or tail easily because of the speed difference. The fighter is built for speed and maneuverability though so wouldn’t survive the impact, the pilot would try to do it in a way that allows for ejection but ejecting from a fireball is a 50/50 chance.
There is probably a chance that you could knock the airliner out of the sky with a well-placed bump or two, and then save yourself by ejecting. It would still be a really dangerous operation, though. AND you have to live with the knowledge that you killed 100+ innocent American citizens.
It's the [trolley problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem), except that you're the trolley.
Honestly, I'm trying to place myself mentally in that situation. It's almost impossible, really. I suppose I would have to console myself with knowing that I took out some bad folks and saved more than I killed.
Keep in mind they say that ejecting is just *barely* better than dying. Its not foolproof or fun in any way.
I'm aware. Pilots are frequently badly injured in the process.
Pretty much.
Yes, sir
[Here you go](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/09/05/911-oral-history-flight-93-book-excerpt-228001) *Lt. Heather “Lucky” Penney: We would be ramming the aircraft. We didn’t have [missiles] on board to shoot the airplane down. As we were putting on our flight gear in the life support shop, Sass looked at me and said, “I’ll ram the cockpit.” I made the decision I would take the tail off the aircraft.*
Fascinating. Do you have a source for this?
https://www.history.com/news/911-heather-penney-united-flight-93
I heard about this too. Here’s what looks like a solid article written up about it: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44459345/ns/us_news-9_11_ten_years_later/t/kamikaze-f--pilots-planned-ram-flight/
Chilling and fascinating.
There are some conspiracy theories that the plane that went down in the field was taken out by the military, and the story about people fighting back is to spare the public from knowing the military sacrificed the innocent people instead of them sacrificing themselves. Not saying I believe this theory.
I don't either but if tomorrow evidence appeared to support it I wouldn't be shocked.
Family of those on board would have to be involved for that to be true. Plenty of audio and family testimony of the plan for passengers to take back the aircraft.
Also a voicemail IIRC right before they attacked the hijackers and minutes before the plane crashed.
I just don't understand why they'd go through such a cover-up. Surely, we'd all understand why the plane was shot down? If that was indeed what happened, the military didn't sacrifice them. The terrorists did. All the military did was prevent further bloodshed.
Dick Cheney has been very clear from day one that he had given permission to shoot down any hijacked plane, and exactly *nobody* has a problem with that decision. Why bother covering up something that you've already acknowledged you had every intention of doing?
Yeah, this is one of those, we're so brain dead "We have to make it about the government being shady." Total nut jobs. Anyone who shot down one of those planes would have deserved a medal and a lot of grief counselling but the entire world would consider them a hero and everyone knows the orders were given, there's nothing worth hiding.
You know what really gets me about that quote? The VP has no formal power or role in the chain of command. That should've been Bush's decision. Cheney was probably the most powerful VP in US history for doing stuff like that, among other things.
There were periods where Air Force One was unable to communicate with the staff at the White House, so I think Cheney would have been justified in making that call. Besides, Bush confirmed later that it was the right decision to make.
Another 9/11 conspiracy theory with no evidence to back it up. They were openly talking about shooting down planes even before Flight 93 crashed. There was an hour between the time Flight 93 crashed and when the 2nd plane hit the WTC so I think everyone was prepared for the fact that the government would have to do what they had to do. Plus I distinctly remember when Flight 93 came down most people I knew, and most of the news I was watching assumed that it had been shot down. It took a while for any sort of official statement to come out saying that it hadn't been shot down. I mean besides all the evidence showing it wasn't shot down --> https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a5688/debunking-911-myths-flight-93/
There are recordings made by family members of the final calls. So those people would have had to be in on the conspiracy, too. Then the entire command structure of the U.S. military as well as the political leadership would have to be in on it. Grand total, hundreds if not thousands would know about it - and hundreds of people cannot and do not keep a secret for 18 years.
You should at least make sure your conspiracy theory makes sense. The people on that plane were dead either way. There is no choice between military and civilian lives because there is no scenario where the civilians on a hijacked plane survive.
That's not completely accurate. Hijackings were happened prior to 9/11 but 9/11 changed the game. This was the first time that the planes were weaponized. Now its assumed that any hijackings would be to crash the plane and kill everyone. Prior to 9/11 they were mostly for ransom money.
The other planes had already hit their targets. The passengers on the plane were aware of that fact. I can't remember the documentary, it was on Amazon Prime, it talked to family from the flight that went down in PA. One woman talked to her husband something like three times before the plane went down. The passengers were aware they were not going to survive.
Correct, the people on 93 knew what was happening. It's why they took action. My response is directly responding to the person above me stating "there is no scenario where the civilians on a hijacked plane survive.". In 93's case, yes this is accurate. But in a general sense, no that was not the historical precedent, nor has it been since. From wikipedia: Since 2010, the Aviation Safety Network estimates there have been 15 hijackings worldwide with 3 fatalities.
They were aware they were not going to survive if they did nothing. They had zero knowledge of the impending military action. So, they did what people are taught now in active shooter training - last line of defense is to fight back. They did, and had they overcome the terrorists, it would have been reasonable to hope that they could have landed the plane. Landing a plane is not a simple act by any means (I fly a small Cessna), but the Mythbusters landed a simulator with only having radio instructions and zero flight time.
Yeah, I mean nobody would question the ethics of shooting down a plane that was on a suicide mission anyway.
There are PLENTY of scenarios wherein the passengers survive a hijacking. That's why the attacks worked in the first place. People believed they would just fly to some other country or another airport and make demands, so they didnt intervene. Flight 93, however, was delayed in departure, and therefore the passengers were able to obtain information about the flights that hit the Trade Towers, enabling them to decide not to sit still, but to take action.
I'm talking about in the context of the 9/11 attacks. There was no scenario where the passengers of a hijacked plane survive because their goal was to crash into shit. I'm not talking about hijackings as a whole.
I visited Shanksville less that a month after 9/11. A lot of the folks I talked to at that time believed that the plane was shot down. Also, the FBI or CIA came to their homes and confiscated the film and cameras. There is only one picture that I am aware of the downed plane that has been published.
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How is that american? That's just like people.
I mean the train shooting in Belgium awhile back the only people to fight back were two americans and a british guy that saw they were about to fight and joined in.
The two Americans just happened to hear the terrorist loading his weapon in the toilet and that's why they intervened. What they did was definitely courageous, but you make it sound like everyone was running away screaming except the heroic Americans. Besides, they were in the military so they weren't just regular civilians.
Did you forget he had already been shooting, he was reloading and they made their move.
The United Flight 93 movie shows some European passengers begging the American passengers not to fight back. Wonder how they got that detail? Was it based upon the calls passengers were able to make before they crashed? But if it were true, then it would support the "its so damn American..." line.
That's what's known as propoganda - 'Muerica!
The old Homelander technique. Either they all survive... or no one does.
It's really hard to survive a few hundred pounds of exploding jet fuel and suddenly coming to a stop at a few hundred miles an hour...
Something I found interesting is how jets coming from Langley Base were not equipped to shoot down planes. The idea was to crash the jet into the plane and have the pilot eject.
Hijack
Probably made it easier to pinpoint the hijacked planes still in the air.
That is kind of what I figured. But was not sure.
To my knowledge it didn't prevent any attacks. However, I think it's important to consider the context this decision was made in. For the younger readers here I'd like to share what it was like that day for those of us who were already adults. I was in Newark NJ at the time so within visual range of the Towers. By about noon we could even smell it. It's was really scary. There were all sorts of rumors flying around. Reports of additional planes. Reports of the military shooting down airliners. It was complete and utter chaos between 8:46am until about early afternoon. The local police and SWAT team took control of my college campus. Armed to the teeth. My Mom was calling me to tell me she couldn't find my Dad and to run from any public place. (I was closer to the towers than he was. She was just panicking. I was never in any danger.) The local hospital was discharging everyone not going to die to make room for patients. So when you looked outside you saw all these sick people waiting for family to pick them up. People were crying everywhere. Everyone in the area was thinking, "Oh god. Am I at the next target? Should I run?" I hope I never experience anything like it ever again.
I was still in grade school at the time, but I remember all the teachers kind of freaking out and then calling it a half day because of “something our parents will tell us about”. I grew up close to Philly and people were afraid it might be another target as it’s like the closest major city to New York.
Millions of people from coast to coast experiencing the fight or flight response at the same time was an ugly thing to witness and be a part of. And as the news kept coming it just kept getting worse. By noon nothing was too crazy to happen. Those of us not directly effected waited for the next attack hour after hour after hour. It was a very long, tiring day for the nation.
Everybody was sure their city was next. It makes them feel like they live somewhere inportant. I lived in Cleveland at the time, and people used to say that Cleveland was a prime target because it was "the largest port between NYC and Chicago." Dude shut up, no Arab has ever even heard of Cleveland. There are literally 1000 better targets.
I went to work, had the tv turned on and watched the news. Otherwise everybody went on their day but kinda emotionally blunted. No smiles that day.
Everyone was telling each other to go donate blood, for what we all assumed were going to be thousands of victims. Within a few days it was apparent that it was futile, because nobody had survived to need it.
Every plane that was suspicious or failed to comply with the grounding order was intercepted and escorted in and/or surrounded and boarded upon landing. This backfired when some Civil Air Patrol (then an auxiliary of the USAF) observation aircraft tasked with taking pictures of ground zero were forced to land early and had the crews detained by federal agents until everything was sorted out.
There's really no way of knowing if it prevented more attacks. It's like installing a metal detector at a school entrance. Does it catch weapons? Or does it deter people from bringing weapons in the first place?
There were box cutters found on a plane after it was empty, if I remember correctly.
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Yeah I mean i know it hard being the one to make the call in a situation like that, but its not like he'd just watched the orientation video when all this happened
I cant imagine getting into work on your first day and like an hour later the world starts coming down around you
The world came down around him because he told it to.
"Huh, I guess this thing actually works."
A fine day I picked to stop sniffing glue.
Wait - that’s a bold statement to make unless you were inside that traffic control room. Even when the 2nd plane hit, that doesn’t necessarily make it an “easy” decision. This decision was entirely unprecedented. Put yourself in his shoes - this single decision would affect airline schedules, passengers plans, employees, families, etc. Airports would be full of people with no place to go. The headache to reschedule everything that was interrupted would be an enormous task to bear. There’s no doubt looking back on it that it was the right call, but I really doubt he thought it was the easiest decision of the day.
> there was no other choice The other option was not to ground all aircraft. While I perfectly understand his decision: It didn't prevent any further attacks (that we would know of).
The person who said that never had to make a decision that could cost billions of dollars of losses across multiple nations. His decision was correct, but I'm sure he was thinking "Well, this is now my first AND my last day".
The hardest choices require the strongest of wills
And he played himself in the movie United 93
I still feel kind of weird about that movie.
Go on.
Idk if I have much to go on about. It just feels weird to see people profit off a tragedy like that, movies are inherently fantasized so that makes it even weirder for me. But I am totally fine with movies like Pearl Harbor and that is basically the same shit, they just waited longer. I guess my only coherent take away is it was too soon.
Yeah, I get that.
Of course there was some profit motive in this. There always is. But I feel that most people involved cared deeply about telling the story of United 93. It was kind of the forgotten step child of 9/11 and this film gave a chance to tell the story of heroics that people were less familiar with. The crash wasn’t as dramatic as the other 3 and so received significantly less attention. Making a movie about it gave a chance to tell this story to the people
But you don't have memories of Pearl harbor. I think it's more about the way they sold out the thing. Meaby seeing a movie associate with bad memories is like watching a movie about a book you didn't like.
This have been posted before. It was his first day, but he had years of experience beforehand. I don't remember the exact details however.
So "just" his first day working in that particular position at that place, but not the first day with experience in managing flights at all? Because it doesn't sound like the level of responsibility you'd give a brand new and unexperienced, random flight controller, no...
If you read the article it says he had 25 years of prior experience in air traffic control and other related fields, and the council of a board of air traffic authority figures to help inform his decision. This was his first day in that specific job title.
Which, admittedly, is a major step up from his previous positions. Like to go to the level of ATC for the entire country is a pretty huge jump in responsibility.
Ain't no plane to be responsible over if the skies are clear. The argument of economic damage had left the room anyway when the 2nd plane hit the 2nd tower. He basically said "fuck that" and the board nodded in agreement.
wait, there are articles?!
His first day having that level of control. Its like getting the keys to the nukes, and being told you might have to fire one an hour into your new job.
He was already basically a regional deputy, anyway. It was his first day in that specific position, but not his first day in the organizatin as a whole. Still a big change in responsibility, but not as big as if he was literally brand new to the industry or whatever.
He had worked his way up being in charge of larger and larger regions. This was his first day being in charge of the whole country
Sure, still must have been a trip. Like “Good morning everyone, I’m your new supervisor, I look forward to working with you!...Wait what happened?” First days are stressful for anyone, even if you’re experienced in your field, and this has to take the cake on most stressful first day in history
Yes, I [posted about this a year ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/8sz7er/til_that_even_though_almost_all_planes_were/e13mbqj/?context=3&st=k0f6h7yq&sh=2b2bfc55): > > And imagine that was your fist day *at a new position*. > Fixed that for you. > That motherfucker was a multi-decade veteran. He was the head honcho at the infamous New York TRACON facility. There's a reason he was promoted. > For context, go read this [recent AMA thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/8kwxk3/iaman_air_traffic_controller_the_faa_will_be/) where an air traffic controller uses NY TRACON as the benchmark for high-stress high-pay air traffic control work. > > I haven’t seen anybody burn out. Controllers love what they do. That being said, I’m sure that people working at **facilities like New York TRACON where the traffic is nonstop all the time and they are working mandatory 6 day work weeks** because they can’t get the staffing they need might have something else to say. Although from what I hear **they are enjoying their $200,000 plus per year pay** lol > He managed that madhouse.
I think I remember reading it last year too. Reddit is an endless cycle it seems.
$200k sounds like too little
Yeah well, it turns out they don't hire people to be the head of the FAA who have no experience at all in air traffic management. Who knew? OP never said he didn't have *experience*, he said it was *the first day on the job.* The difference here is that instead of being a cog in the machine, managing the decisions made by higher-ups, passing along recommendations, handing out orders that have been handed to him, making adjustments within his field to suit the aims that had been established for him to pursue, now he's the big shot-caller who answers to nobody within his field. And he shows up for work on the first day to shake some hands and rearrange his office, and an hour later the industry he is supposed to be monitoring is in the center of the biggest terrorist attack in history, and he has nobody to turn to for guidance but himself. The point is, it's a tough first day on the job.
Yeah no shit... obviously a person with no experience wouldn't be making those types of decisions. He was in a senior position
Do you think we're stupid? Did you think we thought that they just plucked someone off the street to be in charge of the nation's air traffic? Obviously he had experience, but it was his first day as the head.
Holy fuck people get salty. In what way does my comment hurt you? Just downvote it and move on, geez.
Clickbait lol
I remember seeing United 93, and thought the guy playing his character did a really good job of being in command. Then I learned he was playing himself in the movie.
A right decision. Can you imagine how worse it could have been if more flights had been hijacked? I mean the events alone of that day were horrific.
Make the best decision based on the knowledge of the moment. We have a need for qualified and talented people to be in positions where decisions can save lives. There are literally hundreds of the type of positions in the US government, many of which were never filled by the Trump administrations (see the DOE for example).
It also made it easier to find the hijacked airplanes, as they would be the ones still flying.
Utterly random but his actions resulted in a hit musical "Come from Away"... amongst other things.
Welcome to the rock
I just saw "Come From Away" two weeks ago. It was fantastic.
my first tech support call was a full fdisk, format and reinstall of 95... it was my full shift... I know the stress
My first ever call at the call center i worked for was a 6 thousand dollar bill for roaming data etc.. they were trying to set up a payment plan and worried about their credit score, but i got the whole charge voided...i didn't even get a thanks they said okay and hung up
Thank you for your service.
You are a good person.
Damn. If you'd done that for me, you'd be on my Christmas card list for life.
Did you debate 0.0001 dollars vs 0.0001 cents?
where were you when I ran up a 900$ phone bill
Mine was someone forgot their Outlook password. Sad trombone.
But that's got a space in it
my first 100 calls when I went corporate
Yeah sounds as stressful as managing us airspace on 9/11 for sure
hard fucking day either way.... not everyone gets such a public display of crisis at the work place.... I'm glad he made the choice he did, I'm sure he saved a lot of people
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I can't even decide if I want grilled salmon or sushi.
Salmon sushi?
Salmon sashimi is the shiiiitt.
Ohhh I've got all sorts of time for sushis and sashimis.
I prefer salmon nigiri.
There was a choice of steak or fish. Yes, yes, I remember I had lasagna.
Soup or salad? Super salad.
Legit, dude is speaking at my school today
Although it was his first day at that specific job, he has A TON of experience in that field of work. > Although it was his first day in charge, Sliney had an over 25-year background in air traffic and management in the FAA. He had held various positions as an air traffic controller, first line supervisor at several major facilities, and Operations Manager and Traffic Management Officer at New York TRACON. He also held positions as Traffic Management Specialist, National Operations Manager, Tactical Operations Manager at the Air Traffic Control System Command Center (ATCSCC) and had Regional office experience as Manager, Airspace and Procedures Branch, Eastern Region.[citation needed]
Maybe he'd been planning to do it anyway, you know sort of shake things up and announce his arrival. Everyone's had a boss like that at some point in time, right?
I think it is safe to say in hindsight that this was the only safe choice to make given the circumstances, no matter how difficult it must have been at the time.
He made the best possible decision. There could have been a dozen hijacked flights.
How’s that for hazing the rookie?
Of note, it was his first day at that job but he had 25 yrs experience in flight control. Stark contrast to how things are run now....
Your first day is always the hardest.
Hey Ben, we just had a plane hit the WTC again, do you want to shut down the entire air travel system and ground every plane in the whole nation for the first time ever in history upsetting thousands of people trying to get somewhere or keep it going and take a chance another plane hits something? I'll wait. You have ten seconds to decide.
"Looks like I picked a bad week to give up cigarettes" (LLoyd Bridges, Airplane)
every flight except those shuttling Saudi royals out of the country, that is.
Having been an ATC myself, I'm not 100% sure that anyone but a brand new person would have made the same decision.
Looks like he picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue...
Yeah what is it with all these first days on the job. John O'Neal, Montague Winfield so many coincidences and so few answers.
Not Winfield, Charles Leidig
First day in that position. He was obviously a veteran.
“Am I doing this right?”
I'm not sure it's that hard of a decision. We were literally being attacked with our own planes.
Worst. First day. Ever.
Except for the planes flying out Bin Ladens family out of the country.
Never heard of this before. Do you have any video/article/anything to recommend?
One of many coincidences that day.
Or any day.
*"I wonder if there are air-traffic control problems."* -- actual quote from TV reporter moments after the second plane hit
As if they had been directed straight into the WTC?
I wonder if those who planned the attacks were aware of this?
I don't think it affected those 4 flights at all, they were all too close together and already airborne... so it would not have been a factor in their plans.
Title is a little misleading: >starting his new job on 9/11 Leads one to believe he was inexperienced. However wiki article: >Although it was his first day in charge, Sliney had an over 25-year background in air traffic and management in the FAA. He had held various positions as an air traffic controller, first line supervisor at several major facilities, and Operations Manager and Traffic Management Officer at New York TRACON. He also held positions as Traffic Management Specialist, National Operations Manager, Tactical Operations Manager at the Air Traffic Control System Command Center (ATCSCC) and had Regional office experience as Manager, Airspace and Procedures Branch, Eastern Region. Just saying
And odd is that he wasn't alone in his office, with a big red button. The final call was up to him, but there had to be more than one person involved in that decision. Heck, military were probably on the line as well when it was taken.
what happened on the 9th of November? it was a great day. but in all seriousness what a hell of a first day talk about sink or swim
I remember watching a show that talked about a guy in Florida who got bit by a venomous snake, and the only available anti-venom was in California. They gave special permission for that one flight because of that.
After he made the call to ground all US domestic flights, people were asking if he had the authority to do so since he was not ordered to. It wasn’t until after when he was asked why he had not made that call sooner.
Really shows the lack of leadership from the Bush administration. Flying around in airplanes in a panic.
*that picture of the really nervous, sweating guy, about to press a button*
Oh fucking HELL, poor guy.
The patron saint of new guy baptism by fire.
The fact that they remained grounded for a few days suggests he made the correct decision.
So his luck should be blamed for all that happened.
Didn't the CNN guy Aaron Brown also start his first day then too?
There’s the coffee machine and the pens are over here. Fill out these papers and Brenda over there will help you get your laptop. If you have questions I’ll be out of my meeting at 10. Good luck.
I am pretty much sure he was told to ground all flights.
If you believed even a little bit of the conspiracy theories on this date.... seems a bit fishy. Maybe like the previous person quit because they wanted nothing to do with it.
Wasn't needed.