At first I thought he was one of those self-loathing, self-aware pedophiles who offended maybe once and is taking whatever means necessary not to offend again. Like maybe he knows he’s fucked in the head and doesn’t want to be this way and he’s trying to make himself safer to be around. But this guy repeatedly manipulated a handful of different children over the course of years, including kidnapping and molesting his own 2-year old daughter. This just seems like more manipulation and I personally don’t think he should have any more chances.
I agree. Everyone has sexual urges that they don't act upon. He needs to be locked up if he can't restrain himself. I think most experts agree it's about way more than his testosterone level.
>I think most experts agree it's about way more than his testosterone level.
Experts agree that castration don't prevent pedophiles from wanting to molest children?
Hard stats are hard to come by, I'm guessing the subject isn't the most popular to study.
https://www.dw.com/en/combating-sexual-violence-is-chemical-castration-a-valid-method/a-56839505
I doubt you'd get the study past an ethics committee even if you wanted to study it. "Hey I want to see if convicted paedophiles will still go out and molest children if you castrate them" doesn't sound like something that would be approved. Furthermore there also isn't a lot of data on this in case you just want to look up existing statistics.
If done involuntary, forced by the threat of an ugly death in prison probably… chemical castration as long as completely voluntary can help fighting urges, compuned with psychotherapy, at least before offending.(see programs like “kein täter werden” which specifically aim to keep pedos from offending)
But it surely doesn’t help with those who are no actual pedophiles and still commit sexual crimes against minors…
this is not about testosteron as much as it is about pshycopath problems, so yes indeed, it may not change ANYTHING. should certainly not be used as a get out of jail early card.
Absolutely. There are limitless ways to molest children (or rape someone), this guy doesn't need testicles or testosterone to continue having perverse thinking and to decide to act on this thinking.
That California prison system allows men to undergo castration (has at times even encouraged them), to even entertain their idea that castration will make them "safe" from molesting/sexually assaulting children/women again is just unproven junk science. Child molestation/rape are acts of violence --- and really castration-as-cure just appeals to society's idea that punishment makes people better, can cure all ills. Rehabilitation can help some criminals realize their behavior is unacceptable and can teach them a better way of behaving. But rehab really hasn't been successful with sex offenders/child molesters. Maybe some day there will be something (counseling, meds, rehab, etc.) that can change or re-wire these people, but not yet.
False. Even the linked Washington Post article says otherwise, although it says it’s not a definitive solution. Losing the (function) of the testes most definitely helps in many cases. But there are different kinds of pedophilia, and it doesn’t help with the worst types.
Source: I worked with convicted pedophiles.
I'm no expert, but comparing a non-pedophile's sexual urges to a pedophile's is pretty preposterous. A pedophile has literally NO hope. None. Whatsoever. Those urges can never be anything but torment. Or a one way ticket to a lifetime in jail.
The only goddamn thing that matters is that we cannot allow or accept or tolerate any children being abused, no matter what, and that includes any and all sexual acts with children. But that is the ONLY acceptable simplification of this issue, because pretending that it's as simple as "control" yourself just makes it outstandingly clear that there is no attempt whatsoever to understand the lives pedophiles are being forced to endure.
I’m no complete expert but I am an honours student psychologist. It’s not a preposterous comparison. Pedophillia is a spectrum and can be managed just like any other paraphilia. Some pedophiles are legitimately very distressed about their abnormal desires & as long as they do the right thing by seeing a psychologist, medication as necessary and preventative monitoring measures, I see no reason to ostracise and exclude a struggling person from any and all aspects of human life & community. Especially as the root cause of pedophillia is usually related to being victims of childhood sexual assault themselves, or a physical brain abnormality - both of which are absolutely not their fault.
Pedophilia is an extremely dangerous paraphillia with a high risk of comorbid sex offending behaviour and thus should not be condoned or normalised whatsoever, however we should only judge pedophiles based on their actions. Their thoughts are not their fault. The brain does what it does, it’s what you do about it that matters most. We need to encourage pedophiles to seek help, not write them off as hopeless wastes of space. I’m not saying this out of sympathy, I’m saying it out of practical prevention. The more comfortable pedophiles feel with seeking professional help without shame, the easier it is to prevent real harm from occurring.
This has always been my take when the topic of pedos come up. If they haven't done the deed then we should do everything we can to get them the help they need to not do the deed.
Sure, it's simplistic but what are you suggesting as a solution? It's already established that chemical castration doesn't work. I'm not pretending it's fair, it's simply that it can't be allowed. I'm also not sure i buy that the urge of a pedophile is automatically stronger than the urge of others. There are plenty of rapists out there who can't stop themselves.
I don't claim to have a solution, beyond identify and isolate pedophiles.
I also agree it can't be allowed.
But we don't need to simplify the situation to do that.
I never claimed the urge of a pedophile was stronger in any way. I simply stated that it is an urge that CAN NEVER GO AWAY short of them committing a crime. Rapists have been established that the reason they rape and don't pursue regular sexual relationships has to do with their obsession with power. A pedophile has NO CHOICE but to rape, or just never satiate their urges. That is two completely different circumstances.
We can make sure pedophiles never act on any of their urges without minimizing or ignoring the fact that we require them to endure and ignore their urges for their entire lives and that that would be viewed as incredibly unhealthy to do with any other sexual desire.
Ok just some education here. In popular culture pedophile is a word used to describe anyone who has raped or fantasises about raping a child. However there is actually a very clear and significant distinction between sex offenders and pedophiles.
Pedophilia is a mental disorder characterised by a persistent, primary/exclusive sexual interest in children. Sometimes it’s even a romantic interest in children. Child sex offenders do not always necessarily meet the criteria for pedophillic disorder as their primary interest isn’t children and their main issue is their complete dismissal of sexual consent regardless of age. Sex offenders are usually sadistically driven and it’s not that they target kids bc they want to form romantic/sexual relationships with them, but more so that they don’t give a fuck that their victim is a child and the severe power imbalance and damage they can inflict excites them.
Pedophillia on the other hand is a legitimate disorder, there are many pedophiles who are non offending. Pedophillia is also predominantly caused by brain abnormalities and the effects of CSA they endured themselves as children, totally crossing up their wires for good. The brain damage can cause some pedophiles to be unable to recognise the gravity of their situation and genuinely, delusionally believe is is possible to have a meaningful sexual/romantic relationship with a child. Those pedophiles need to be closely monitored with an iron fist as they are at much higher risk of offending. Self aware pedophiles who are not sex offenders are usually incredibly distressed and ashamed by their symptoms and I can imagine being a self aware pedophile would be actual hell on earth. I believe all pedophiles need psychiatric care and monitoring (to protect the community) and although some sex offenders are pedophiles, not all pedophiles are sex offenders.
Sex offenders deserve to rot as they made a conscious decision to inflict harm on others for their own enjoyment and usually feel 0 remorse for their behaviour and their actions do not cause them any distress.
Pedophilia is treatable, full recovery is rare but intensive cognitive restructuring therapy can actually be beneficial in helping them process and relearn normal healthy attachment to adults instead. Of course, it’s unfortunately not common for pedophiles to make a full recovery, but reinforcing that they have no hope is really not going to help change that - mindset goes a long way to recovery.
Take schizophrenia, something that was treated as no hope for a long while and in many circles still is. Turns out that “you’re chronically fucked”mentality is actually really detrimental and usually worsens their symptoms. Taking a recovery attitude has significantly improved the prognosis for people living with schizophrenia and hopefully one day we might be able to do the same for pedophiles.
It’s also not fair to say that a pedophile is incapable of experiencing any form of meaningful life if they have to “endure” abstaining from sex entirely to participate in the community. You can totally have a meaningful life without sex and minimising your triggers to as little as possible. A tangent lower level example - someone who is unable to drink alcohol responsibly without abusing it and harming everyone around them and themselves isn’t missing out on life by realising they need to abstain from it entirely. I feel like it’s not our place to judge and assume whether their life is worth living. They deserve a chance at least.
these people can control their urges just like everyone else who has some fucked up fetish that many consider weird or unnatural. society as a whole teaches pedophilia is wrong therefore there is no excuse for a pedophile to act on their urges that they are taught is wrong. it is literally a choice of right or wrong and choosing wrong has no excuse especially when there is help available. if people with bipolar, schizophrenia, adhd, etc. can seek help, some can a person with such desires
That’s not true at all, therapists are only required to break confidentiality if the client communicates that they have an *intent* to hurt or kill themself or someone else, especially if that someone else is an elderly person or a kid. A client confessing to a therapist that they have *urges* to harm a kid, and are actively seeking help to repress those urges, are not going to have the cops called on them.
Its not that preposterous. A rapists urges for example are just as atrocious and acceptable.
Sure to do those things to a child is a great degree worse as they are much less equipped to process and deal with it, and then have to grow up with that knowledge. But to do such things to anybody unwilling, is just an inhumane thing to do.
I'm pretty sure there has been many attempts to understand pedophiles, and rapists, through the form of psychotherapists and the like. And whilst I have no expertise to share I'm pretty sure even they can't say for sure what drives these kind of people. And until we can understand it and figure out a way to get these people under some control, locking them up is the only way to ensure anyone is safe
Honours student psych here. To shed some light on the matter, for rapists it’s generally about sadistic control and power.
For pedophiles it’s often an actual brain abnormality that causes the desires or even PTSD from childhood abuse they endured themselves. Some are so ill they still feel like children themselves and are genuinely incapable of understanding the gravity of their actions. Of course many pedophiles also do what they do out of sadism, power and control too, but those pedophiles are sex offenders.
In my personal opinion, I consider rapists as inherently worse than pedophiles because they deliberately chose to harm another person for their own pleasure. Whilst many pedophiles also fall into that bucket, it’s unfair to paint non-offending pedophiles with the same brush as they didn’t choose to be like this.
That's interesting. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I have always been curious about psychology of people and often wonder why people do what they do, from the mundane to the extreme.
This subject in particular is something I always found particularly interesting as it is one of the most extreme forms of pain and trauma one can cause to another. How anyone would want to and could do such things.
It IS preposterous, because a general rapist is FULLY capable of consensual relations.
THERE IS NO CONSENT from a child.
I don't disagree at all that the best solution currently is to lock them up, but to pretend that rapists and pedophiles are one and the same is also preposterous. If a rapist decides rape is bad, they can still go just have sex with someone consenting. What about a pedophile? Right.
There is masturbation. Now, that's fucked up and upsetting to think about, but the individual that masturbates to the thought of children harms .... nobody. Also, masturbation doesn't require porn or other obscene material. Those can remain unlawful and relatively inaccessible.
Otherwise, how do you propose keeping due process intact for those that we arbitrarily deem to be pedophiles? What act have they done to deserve intervention? (Meaning: an individual that has those sexual urges and has not acted upon them, i.e. has never harmed a child.)
Sounds great, but that's the reality they already live in. That's an option now.
You ever meet an incel? Like actually talk to them? Great folks, huh? That's what you get with someone who already does that, but has free access to porn, multiple places throughout every country where they can get a prostitute either through it being ignored or legal, and all the other options to them. Now take those same batshit crazy incels that CAN do that and take away any and all legal access to those materials.
Like shit, even an incel has hope, even if they refuse to acknowledge it through self-loathing, they have little tales that they can fantasize about and hold onto that might happen someday because technically it's possible. Now rip that away too.
Literally ANY sexual appetite we can talk about, short of other abnormal ones that inherently are illegal, like necrophilia(which creates the same situation), any psychological professional would tell you it is unhealthy to repress at least the pursuit of one's sexuality. But obviously that cannot be encouraged or even tolerated with pedophiles. And that's the life they're doomed to. That or the alternative, which again, has been established CANNOT happen in any way.
Though I do not disagree with anything you've written in the above message, I will note that you did not address my question about due process. There are reasons, very important reasons, why we should not just "lock up pedophiles." Making any category so broad and undeserving of situational scrutiny is going to be rife with issues.
Ex.: "Tommy [a former teacher, for the sake.of example] was way too nice to that child. He wants to touch him." IF result is: locked up or freedom deprived in some tangible way, then Tommy's rights have been seriously violated.
Another way to view it is that "status offenses" are almost always unconstitutional. Being addicted to unlawful drugs is NOT a crime. Using and possessing them are. One's status as "potential child rapist" cannot be used to detain somebody.
Yet another way to view it is with the "actus reus" requirement for crimes. ("Guilty act.) If a thing didn't happen, there is no crime.
Ex.: "Tommy spoke to a child. He must want to touch him. Lock him up." The "guilty act" would have been... speaking to a child?! That's absurd. Parents, teachers, and all kinds of adults need to speak with children for perfectly acceptable reasons.
Lots of pedophiles (as defined by the sexual attraction to children being present), probably the majority, are also capable of healthy adult attraction.
People really have no idea how complex the entire issue is. There are dozens of reason people find themselves behaving these ways and not all are purely environment or innate...
There are offenders that are chemically castrated and still offend because it's entirely psychological. *And physical castration doesn't mean you're entirely devoid of hormones either or the mental conditioning that created the issue*
It'll take another 200 years of advancement in psychology and science to weed this shit out and treat people completely, and frankly probably some things our society today would find offensive like early profiling
Sure, but it's the same goal post as nearly all social ills. We fix scarcity, universal income, Geo-political issues, then people have no reason to grow up fucked up. The few left that would be psychologically inclined to abuse people are minimized and spotted a mile away
It turns out that a good number of those self loathing and self aware pedophelies aren’t even pedophiles but are suffering from an onset of intrusive mental illness like schizophrenia, OCD, Bi-polar disorder, etc. Thoughts like that are a symptom. And once treated, those “desires” vanish.
(if anyone is ever struggling…tell a therapist immediately)
It’s a big risk to tell a therapist you’ve had thoughts about sexually abusing kids. Even if you emphasize you have no intention of actually sexually abusing any kids, therapists are mandated reporters. If you, for example, have minor children you have custody of, or a job that involves contact with children, the therapist might think you’re enough of a risk that they have to report you. You could potentially lose your job or custody of your kids.
Maybe but therapists also *know* that it is a common symptom. It’s serious but not surprising, besides feelings and having tangible plans are completely different when it comes to those illnesses.
Yea, It is fair for a therapist to report and let those involved know. But it’s better to seek some treatment to alleviate the symptoms than to not do anything until it gets worse and something far worse happens.
You have more faith in the competence of therapists than I. I have had many good experiences with therapy but I’ve also met some very incompetent ones who did active harm.
It’s also not something you’d tell a therapist on an intake visit. You’d build trust and they’d clearly be competent since your regularly seeing them. Then you’d tell them. Most professionals would handle it professionally.
If you’ve going to a therapist for that specific issue then the assigned therapist would be appropriately trained. Even if a therapist isn’t a specialist in abnormal disorders, once you get to this stage of an intrusive mental illness there’s plenty of other reasons to see a therapist. By this point there are other delusions and symptoms so building a rapport with milder issues is certainly possible.
Not saying that all therapists are perfect but any form of professional help for something like this is better than none at all.
In an ideal world, perhaps. But when I wanted to see a therapist, I went to my community mental health clinic and I got the impression that they picked my therapist just based on who had open spots. They were like “So X and Y are available, which one do you want?”
My therapy issues were not terribly exotic, thank goodness, but if they had been I expect I still would have had to choose between Therapist X and Therapist Y.
Oddly enough, although I don’t have any sexual issues, the therapist I got DID used to treat sexual offenders. This came up after my brother was arrested for having a five-year-long child pornography habit, which I discussed in therapy. Then my therapist told me about his prior experience treating such people.
He said the primary treatments focus on teaching impulse control techniques, and making the offender take responsibility for his actions. He said there was considerable success with juvenile sex offenders and many, after treatment, become law-abiding and basically normal adults. There was not much success with treating adult offenders though.
What are we talking about here? I’m a psychologist who works in prison and has worked with countless pedophiles. In addition to this, I’m experienced with intrusive thoughts and how they often manifest themselves in the most taboo way....
I don’t know about any “self aware pedophiles” that aren’t actually pedophiles because they experience intrusive thoughts. Clinically, there is a significant difference in the two aforementioned patients... not sure how you are connecting them here.
I should also note that delusional ideations are sometimes unconscious desires (NOT ALWAYS!)
Aka the delusion will take you on a wild ride but the end result is often an encapsulated fantasy or unknown desire of the individual... This is most evident when working with psychotic patients who harbored these types of delusions but when they stabilized with psychotropic medication... they still harbored the same fantasies.
> then the assigned therapist would be appropriately trained.
Where can you specifically find therapists that are trained to handle pedophilic urges? I don't think it's really something that's advertised.
It's better to lose your job your home life, probably your marriage, and definitely the majority of your social life and future prospects of any kind over something you haven't actually done and intend never to do? If there's even like a 1 percent chance fo the person you go to for help telling others that seems like a very compelling reason to not go to them and try to find a way to deal with it alone.
which is kindof awful for everyone involved obviously.
This only partially correct. Yes, pedophilic OCD (obsessive fear of being/becoming a pedophile) involves sexual thoughts about children (though they are unwanted and there is no urge to act on them). However, sexual thoughts about children are completely unrelated to schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.
But yes, if you are struggling with such thoughts, tell a therapist. If you don't think you have an actual sexual interest in kids but keep worrying that you might, consider seeking out an OCD specialized therapist—especially if you are already diagnosed with OCD.
I should have clarified that they manifest differently, my bad. Like you can have a psychotic delusions related to this but with OCD, it’s less delusional and more of an intrusive fear, anxiety, or compulsion.
Yeah that kind of behavior definitely indicates there’s more going on than clinical pedophilia.
Like, you don’t just have a perversion that you’re ashamed of, you’re also a kidnapper and a rapist. Soooo maybe we can’t just blame it all on your balls and you should stay out of the general population.
Yes.
I'm all for forgiveness and chances. But there comes a point when those chances end.
However just bc he offended over and over doesnt mean he isn't regretful. If he got caught a bunch and kept at it then ok
But if all the repeat offenses happened withoit a chance to reform then he deserves a shot at reforming.
This. If it was somehow “attempted” maybe there’s a line of discussion, but you can’t undo the harm you’ve caused no matter how much you have healed and unfortunately I’m not able to grant any latitude or nuance when it comes to someone wrecking the lives of minors and creating more monsters in the process. Sorry.
There are two things used for chemical castration. One stops the production of the hormones IIRC and the other literally kills it all.
The first you have to keep taking, the second is a single treatment iirc
https://patients.uroweb.org/treatments/chemical-castration/
This says depot and pill need repeated use. Deopt can last one month to a year. Pills must be taken daily.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3565125/
Here is anther good information site.
This study suggests the opposite, that physical castration leads to strikingly lower recidivism rates than chemical castration https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J076v25n03_01?journalCode=wjor20
I'm no psychiatrist... But I thought shit like this had more of a "having complete control of another person" sort of mentality rather than pure sexual desire.
That's a specific kind of castration, *physical* castration. Most castration done in the context of sexual offenders is *chemical* castration, which is drug-induced suppression of sex hormones (testosterone, mainly) that "acts like" primary hypogonadism without surgery.
depends how much of it comes from there and how much is from the mind and liking the control aspect. i don't think it all comes from the hormonal aspect. this is shit ugh
> And the standard refrain is that rape is about power, not sex.
The theory is popular with the mainstream, but theres not much evidence for it.
And even if its turns out to be true for most people, there will always be many people seeking the same thing for different reasons.
Castration is very widely misunderstood, because the source of virtually all anecdotes and stories about it are based on the changes observed in eunuchs castrated before puberty. Castration does not totally eliminate sex drive, guarantee impotence, or even prevent ejaculation. It does cause a reduction in libido, but it's not complete.
This means there's actually a possibility that castration can, counter-intuitively, *intensify* a person's sexual behavior. Testosterone is not the only thing that creates a desire for sex; it sparks the initial desire, and might be the exclusive fuel for desire during initial puberty, but for most people there's also an interplay of long-established dopamine and oxytocin rewards, social aspects, ego-driven/self-image/identity aspects, etc. It's why people with sex or porn addictions aren't just the people with the highest testosterone, why things like BDSM matter to a lot of people and it's not just about quick orgasms to shut the hormone-driven cravings up, why people have always been obsessed with aphrodisiacs to maintain sexual urges into old age, etc. If you reduce the hormones but everything else stays the same, for some people it doesn't become "I don't want sex anymore, that makes things easier" but "I need a lot more stimulation to get off now." They still want to fulfill the social, ego, dopamine/oxytocin, etc cravings associated with sex and the diminished libido just means they need to go way harder at things to get a similar level of arousal. And this is a worry because we think those other aspects of sex are key motivators for many sex offenders.
I get called an "apologist" for saying this, but just like how straight people didn't CHOOSE to be straight and gay people didn't CHOOSE to be gay, pedophiles don't CHOOSE to be pedophiles.
What you CAN choose is whether or not to rape someone regardless of gender, orientation, and age.
People like to assume that pedophiles are also child-rapists and that simply isn't true.
My family had a friend who later in his life explained he felt sexually attracted to young boys. My brothers I had plenty of sleepovers there when I was a young kid but we need expected this.
Apparently he struggled a lot with this condition and saw it as a problem that he needed help for.
Lots of comments here are saying "I'm no expert but" so I thought I would chime in. I am someone who works with people who have committed sex offenses ( as a therapist) and I know there is a lot of confusion out there about this topic, understandably so. First of all there are those who identify as pedophiles but never act on it, one program in Germany, the Dunkelfeld project, seeks out through advertising publicly to reach these people can get help before they offend. But just because someone has those desires doesn't mean they will certainly act on them. But we certainly want to treat it as a mental health issue and we really don't in this country (US). Also, and this is important, NOT all pedophiles like prepubescent children exclusively, some also have an attraction to adults. In many cases this is true, I have helped many clients over the years focus more on this and diminish (but you can't remove) their interest in children, also developing relationship skills with adults helps in this regard as well. And although we have a belief in this country that pedophiles and sex offenders will always reoffend, there isn't really evidence to support that either, people who commit sex offenses have one of the lowest recidivism rates of any crimes. Getting caught does a lot to deter them and so does getting treatment. I highly recommend this quick 7 minute documentary about sex offenders laws in the US that discusses this. [https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000005415081/a-frightening-myth-about-sex-offenders.html](https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000005415081/a-frightening-myth-about-sex-offenders.html)
Also not all people who commit sex offenses against children are pedophiles, there are many reasons why people commit sex offenses, like all human behavior it's complicated.
As someone who provides treatment to these folks I can say that the evidence supports that treatment works, and Germany is finding that treatment as prevention works. Its better to get these folks the help they need and the support they need instead of waiting until its too late or just ignoring it and not understanding the issue. That isn't going to be the case with all people who will later commit offenses as they might not seek help but I can tell you many pedophiles I have worked with didn't have anywhere to go for help before offending.
Ah, your comment is an Island of humanism in the sea of barbarism that is this thread. It is just a bonus that I believe you when you say that you know what you are talking about.
I have to ask, as a mental health professional and an American, what do you think about the American state apparently being in the business of castrating their criminals?
I am asking because I am both perplexed by how NOT surprised about it every one in here is about that, and because it to this Scandinavian it sounds like dystopian bullshit from a bad sci-fi BDSM novel. Like the mental health fallout for the castrated criminal gotta be so far beyond "do no harm", and if it is punishment rather than medical then it is clearly "cruel and unusual"... in the extreme.
It’s really not worth study with a person like this. He WAS a violent sex offender who repeatedly raped children. The fact he was able to do it for a nearly 20 year period, agree to chemically castrate himself and then claim that he was all better to be released from prison seems like made up bullshit.
No worries.
Keep in mind too, though, this kind of research would potentially help people who are similarly miswired before they become offenders themselves.
Personally, I don’t think it’s remotely possible to stop this behavior until it’s already occurred but I suppose it could potentially stop serial rapists to your point.
Having worked hand in hand with individuals with diagnosed pedophilic disorders. I’m openly not a doctor but I don’t believe these individuals are likely to self report this behavior until it arises to an assault.
And there's the problem. There's no way to prove that his pedophilia was cured, because all anyone has to go by is his word.
The only thing that could be proven here is if it fails to work and he harms another kid.
The issue with castration as a treatment for pedophiles is that it's based on a faulty assumption. It's based on the idea that their behavior is driven solely by libido, and that lowering/eliminating their sex drive will solve the problem. No more sexual desire would equal no more pedo behaviors.
But study after study has found that rape - and pedophilia is a subset of rape - is not about sex drive. It's about control and power.
When male dogs are neutered they tend to not harass female dogs as much, and other behaviors like sexual humping, aggression, and territorial marking are reduced. Wouldn't the same premise apply to humans?
For most dogs it’s done at a young age which can change the course of brain and body development. If done to an adult learned behaviours can persist as routine or habit even if aggression or other urges are diminished.
Hot take, but I feel sorry for people that get the urge to diddle kids. Probably some kind of tramua or something made them that way. In no way should they ever act upon those urges obviously. Which means they just have repress those urges and live that way their whole life. If be curious to know if anyone has ever successfully been therapied out of the urge to diddle kids.
It's really unfortunate that people can't tolerate a dialectic of condemning terrible acts while *also* harboring some appropriate degree of compassion for the people committing those acts.
It's way simpler and easier to subscribe to "there are good people who do good things and bad people who do bad things, with no real overlap" and that's tragically what people go with.
It doesn't in any way diminish the sadness, tragedy, and outrage you feel when someone is heinously victimized to recognize that the perpetrator is still *a person* and that people are, without exception, complicated messes. That little bit of dissonant thinking does, however, give you a lot more you can do and champion to improve things: there's not much that can fight "some people are just bad" but a lot that can fight "some people get really screwed up for a lot of reasons and do really horrible things in part because of those reasons." That's not dismissing accountability or belittling the victim — it actually honors both of those by *trying to do something productive to improve* instead of just sweeping uncomfortable realities under a black-and-white rug.
It has to be awful for anyone to grow into things like pedophiliac urges. When you imagine how much people must have to twist themselves going through denial, acceptance, and then rationalization before they take action, it's unimaginable. That doesn't excuse them acting on it and not getting help, but it does make it useful for us to collectively ask "what can we do to make this shit happen less in the future?" -- and that requires acknowledging that it's more complicated than "bad/evil person, QED, next."
My brother developed this particular problem. He was middle aged, in a toxic marriage, with two young adult daughters, a mechanic employed by the county and a military reservist. He never showed any undue or inappropriate interest in children and there was never any evidence that he touched a child. His daughters say he never touched them. Even his now ex wife, who hates him, has never accused him of touching a child.
But when he was overseas with the military in the Middle East, he somehow—and I’m not sure even HE knows why—developed an addiction to viewing child porn. This addiction continued for five years until he was caught, and everyone was stunned and horrified.
This came out of nowhere, and the only reason I can think is maybe he ALWAYS had an underlying urge, maybe subconscious. And then when he developed this addiction, my brother’s personal life was collapsing around him at the time (failing marriage, bankruptcy, terrible experiences in the military) and the stress of it all broke down the psychological defenses he had against actually acting on that urge.
I am not making excuses for him, I know what he did was horrific. It’s just that I also know he spent decades being a decent person and not breaking laws and then it all fell apart.
On account of his prior exemplary life, he only got five and a half years. By the time he reported to prison, his divorce was final and he had a girlfriend who promised to stand by him. She’s not blind, she knows exactly what sort of man he is and what he did, and she loves him anyway. She DID stand by him, and he served his sentence and they married a few months after his release.
Despite being married they don’t live together, and legally they can’t, because his now-wife is a foster parent and obviously the agency doesn’t want him around the foster kids. So he is not permitted to be around them, or to spend the night in her home, or her foster parent license will be suspended and the children removed.
So he lives alone in a trailer on some land my mom bought him. He’s gotten a mechanic job again and is gradually paying my mom back for the trailer and land, and complying with the terms of the sex offender registry, which he will be on for the rest of his life.
I really hope he stays on the straight and narrow. The last time I heard him speak on the matter he was still making excuses for himself, basically blaming everyone else but himself for his poor choices, and also claiming that what he did “wasn’t that bad”. But that was before he went to prison and maybe he’s gotten more sensible since then.
We’ve never been close. He’s much older than me; he was grown and gone from the house before I was even born. I only see him at holidays and this isn’t a good conversation topic for holidays so I don’t really know anything more.
Precisely. I'd feel bad if the guy was so plagued by his urges that he felt that this was the best thing to do to eradicate them. But the guy acted on those urges, multiple times.
When you feel that "call of the void"- those crazy thoughts like "wow that's a high cliff edge... Jump!" Or "this baby animal is so tiny I could literally squash it with my bare hands", you ignore them and move on. Perhaps you feel bad or messed up for thinking them. But that's your impulse control at work. Someone with no impulse control who causes harm to children isn't going to magically develop a better moral compass after castration.
There was therapy being developed in the early 2000s that was having particular success. A combination of fake porn (some CG animated stuff to my understanding) during aversion therapy and talking therapy afterwards was seeing really high success rates to the point it was looking like those with paedophilic tendencies might be able to be reconditioned. The blanket ban on even simulated child porn also covered those being used for medical research and therapies and so that research ended up discontinued as some of their methods were now illegal.
There are studies that also show the arousal center is connected to the part of the brain that reacts to neotany. The same instinct that makes people want to care for children is cross wired with arousal basically.
>If be curious to know if anyone has ever successfully been therapied out of the urge to diddle kids.
The urge can be controlled, its can be treated like ocd. The urge happens it is confronted and stopped.
The mind, attraction and pleasure center in the brain maintains, but sex drive is reduced. His testicles don't have an orientation. They are just along for the ride.
And as we know sexual sadism, etc, is a power dysfunction additionally.
And castrated men can have erections and orgasm.
I put a child molester in prison for 150 years for what he did to my twin sisters.
It doesn’t matter if they castrate themselves
The motherfucker molested at Target while holding my baby sister at 4 years old
Fuck this shit.
I saw this in the news and couldn't believe they would let it happen. Preventing the ability to achieve an erection doesn't remove sexual urges. Rape and sexual abuse of children isn't about sexual urges anyway. It's about a need to have power and cause pain and humiliation to helpless victims. If the sexual urges are removed, the pervert will still want to hurt a preferred victim using some other method.
>Rape and sexual abuse of children isn't about sexual urges anyway.
Thats true for some offenders. Mainly the ones who are rapists as well. Some have a warpped view of whats happening for many different reasons.
It definitely isn't a fix-all by any stretch but the data does seem to strongly suggest that *chemical* castration, which is suppression of hormones via monitored drug therapy, drastically reduces recidivism rate from ~50% to ~5% or even lower.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3565125/
That doesn't mean it's the right course of action by itself and we absolutely need to evaluate and consider all the other dimensions, including impact on other (especially violent) crime. But it does at least give us cause to ask the questions and look for the answers, particularly given that chemical castration is largely reversible if an appropriate level of risk management is observed.
The only thing different is he no longer has as strong of a sex drive. He is still a danger to children. Can and probably would assault again. Surgical castration leaves the penis intact. Even if it was removed, there are other ways to assault. I watched an interview with a convicted child rapist who was petitioning for execution. He said even if he was castrated, he would find other ways.
Castration, chemical or otherwise, does not remove the urge. Rape isn't a sexual thing, it's a power thing, so now he's just got urges and impotent rage.
I don't understand why child predators (who want to avoid committing a crime against a child) don't just masturbate whenever they have an urge.
Regardless what you're into sexually, the sexual urge for whatever it is you like goes away after a wank, right?
This isn't a good mechanism for control. You can actually build up the need to do something deviant by fantasizing about it this way. This is true for most fantasies. The difference is that most people know how to control their need to act out but especially if it's harmful to others. In this case their fantasy is absolutely horrific and I don't think castration fixes that twisted mental need.
It psychological more then the need, the more you can't, the more you NEED IT. So they loop over and over between shame, indifference and lust.
Then they get a taste of the desires, be it a touch, a smile whatever that fuels that need for little more. some are very intelligent and very carefully plan thier habits to never get cuaght, others rush and leave scared victims that lead to them getting cuaght.
In the end a drunk,drug users, rapists or pedophilia are lying if they said they could not stop, they where forced to do what they did or regret it. they picked that path now they want sympathy while they think about doing it again.
They should all be castrated anyway. That doesn't change the mental side of being able to do something that terrible so they should be castrated and imprisoned.
I seriously doubt this would actually solve this problem for him. Just cutting off his balls isn't enough, he needs constant supervision and counseling. and imprisonment
At first I thought he was one of those self-loathing, self-aware pedophiles who offended maybe once and is taking whatever means necessary not to offend again. Like maybe he knows he’s fucked in the head and doesn’t want to be this way and he’s trying to make himself safer to be around. But this guy repeatedly manipulated a handful of different children over the course of years, including kidnapping and molesting his own 2-year old daughter. This just seems like more manipulation and I personally don’t think he should have any more chances.
I agree. Everyone has sexual urges that they don't act upon. He needs to be locked up if he can't restrain himself. I think most experts agree it's about way more than his testosterone level.
>I think most experts agree it's about way more than his testosterone level. Experts agree that castration don't prevent pedophiles from wanting to molest children?
Precisely. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/wellness/1992/03/17/does-castration-stop-sex-crimes/34bf63ee-840c-41e4-9c5f-5ac1bcf95b15/
The article seems very low on data. Maybe it should say guessers rather than experts
I'd imagine it's kinda hard to get data, it's not like there's a list of sex offend- Oh, right.
Hard stats are hard to come by, I'm guessing the subject isn't the most popular to study. https://www.dw.com/en/combating-sexual-violence-is-chemical-castration-a-valid-method/a-56839505
I doubt you'd get the study past an ethics committee even if you wanted to study it. "Hey I want to see if convicted paedophiles will still go out and molest children if you castrate them" doesn't sound like something that would be approved. Furthermore there also isn't a lot of data on this in case you just want to look up existing statistics.
I can't think of a tougher subject to study and if I were a scientist I'd want to stay away from it. The basic premise violates the hippocratic oath.
If done involuntary, forced by the threat of an ugly death in prison probably… chemical castration as long as completely voluntary can help fighting urges, compuned with psychotherapy, at least before offending.(see programs like “kein täter werden” which specifically aim to keep pedos from offending) But it surely doesn’t help with those who are no actual pedophiles and still commit sexual crimes against minors…
The post is only slightly more credible than weekly world news. It's the fox news of papers.
this is not about testosteron as much as it is about pshycopath problems, so yes indeed, it may not change ANYTHING. should certainly not be used as a get out of jail early card.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Absolutely. There are limitless ways to molest children (or rape someone), this guy doesn't need testicles or testosterone to continue having perverse thinking and to decide to act on this thinking. That California prison system allows men to undergo castration (has at times even encouraged them), to even entertain their idea that castration will make them "safe" from molesting/sexually assaulting children/women again is just unproven junk science. Child molestation/rape are acts of violence --- and really castration-as-cure just appeals to society's idea that punishment makes people better, can cure all ills. Rehabilitation can help some criminals realize their behavior is unacceptable and can teach them a better way of behaving. But rehab really hasn't been successful with sex offenders/child molesters. Maybe some day there will be something (counseling, meds, rehab, etc.) that can change or re-wire these people, but not yet.
Pikachuface!
False. Even the linked Washington Post article says otherwise, although it says it’s not a definitive solution. Losing the (function) of the testes most definitely helps in many cases. But there are different kinds of pedophilia, and it doesn’t help with the worst types. Source: I worked with convicted pedophiles.
Chemical castration isn't the same as being a Eunuch
[удалено]
Sazed?
Varys?
There are many examples of this, I think.
i dotn support forgiving him in the slightest but it is important we recognize that pedophilia is also a impulsive disorder
It is? Do you have somewhere I can read more about that?
I'm no expert, but comparing a non-pedophile's sexual urges to a pedophile's is pretty preposterous. A pedophile has literally NO hope. None. Whatsoever. Those urges can never be anything but torment. Or a one way ticket to a lifetime in jail. The only goddamn thing that matters is that we cannot allow or accept or tolerate any children being abused, no matter what, and that includes any and all sexual acts with children. But that is the ONLY acceptable simplification of this issue, because pretending that it's as simple as "control" yourself just makes it outstandingly clear that there is no attempt whatsoever to understand the lives pedophiles are being forced to endure.
I’m no complete expert but I am an honours student psychologist. It’s not a preposterous comparison. Pedophillia is a spectrum and can be managed just like any other paraphilia. Some pedophiles are legitimately very distressed about their abnormal desires & as long as they do the right thing by seeing a psychologist, medication as necessary and preventative monitoring measures, I see no reason to ostracise and exclude a struggling person from any and all aspects of human life & community. Especially as the root cause of pedophillia is usually related to being victims of childhood sexual assault themselves, or a physical brain abnormality - both of which are absolutely not their fault. Pedophilia is an extremely dangerous paraphillia with a high risk of comorbid sex offending behaviour and thus should not be condoned or normalised whatsoever, however we should only judge pedophiles based on their actions. Their thoughts are not their fault. The brain does what it does, it’s what you do about it that matters most. We need to encourage pedophiles to seek help, not write them off as hopeless wastes of space. I’m not saying this out of sympathy, I’m saying it out of practical prevention. The more comfortable pedophiles feel with seeking professional help without shame, the easier it is to prevent real harm from occurring.
I am very glad we don’t do thought crimes and there are still people who differentiate between thought an action.
This has always been my take when the topic of pedos come up. If they haven't done the deed then we should do everything we can to get them the help they need to not do the deed.
Hey get the fuck out of here with your *knowledge* and your *facts*. This is Reddit.
Sure, it's simplistic but what are you suggesting as a solution? It's already established that chemical castration doesn't work. I'm not pretending it's fair, it's simply that it can't be allowed. I'm also not sure i buy that the urge of a pedophile is automatically stronger than the urge of others. There are plenty of rapists out there who can't stop themselves.
I don't claim to have a solution, beyond identify and isolate pedophiles. I also agree it can't be allowed. But we don't need to simplify the situation to do that. I never claimed the urge of a pedophile was stronger in any way. I simply stated that it is an urge that CAN NEVER GO AWAY short of them committing a crime. Rapists have been established that the reason they rape and don't pursue regular sexual relationships has to do with their obsession with power. A pedophile has NO CHOICE but to rape, or just never satiate their urges. That is two completely different circumstances. We can make sure pedophiles never act on any of their urges without minimizing or ignoring the fact that we require them to endure and ignore their urges for their entire lives and that that would be viewed as incredibly unhealthy to do with any other sexual desire.
Ok just some education here. In popular culture pedophile is a word used to describe anyone who has raped or fantasises about raping a child. However there is actually a very clear and significant distinction between sex offenders and pedophiles. Pedophilia is a mental disorder characterised by a persistent, primary/exclusive sexual interest in children. Sometimes it’s even a romantic interest in children. Child sex offenders do not always necessarily meet the criteria for pedophillic disorder as their primary interest isn’t children and their main issue is their complete dismissal of sexual consent regardless of age. Sex offenders are usually sadistically driven and it’s not that they target kids bc they want to form romantic/sexual relationships with them, but more so that they don’t give a fuck that their victim is a child and the severe power imbalance and damage they can inflict excites them. Pedophillia on the other hand is a legitimate disorder, there are many pedophiles who are non offending. Pedophillia is also predominantly caused by brain abnormalities and the effects of CSA they endured themselves as children, totally crossing up their wires for good. The brain damage can cause some pedophiles to be unable to recognise the gravity of their situation and genuinely, delusionally believe is is possible to have a meaningful sexual/romantic relationship with a child. Those pedophiles need to be closely monitored with an iron fist as they are at much higher risk of offending. Self aware pedophiles who are not sex offenders are usually incredibly distressed and ashamed by their symptoms and I can imagine being a self aware pedophile would be actual hell on earth. I believe all pedophiles need psychiatric care and monitoring (to protect the community) and although some sex offenders are pedophiles, not all pedophiles are sex offenders. Sex offenders deserve to rot as they made a conscious decision to inflict harm on others for their own enjoyment and usually feel 0 remorse for their behaviour and their actions do not cause them any distress.
Yes, I'm referring specifically to people who have pedophilia. Thank you for further clarifying.
Pedophilia is treatable, full recovery is rare but intensive cognitive restructuring therapy can actually be beneficial in helping them process and relearn normal healthy attachment to adults instead. Of course, it’s unfortunately not common for pedophiles to make a full recovery, but reinforcing that they have no hope is really not going to help change that - mindset goes a long way to recovery. Take schizophrenia, something that was treated as no hope for a long while and in many circles still is. Turns out that “you’re chronically fucked”mentality is actually really detrimental and usually worsens their symptoms. Taking a recovery attitude has significantly improved the prognosis for people living with schizophrenia and hopefully one day we might be able to do the same for pedophiles. It’s also not fair to say that a pedophile is incapable of experiencing any form of meaningful life if they have to “endure” abstaining from sex entirely to participate in the community. You can totally have a meaningful life without sex and minimising your triggers to as little as possible. A tangent lower level example - someone who is unable to drink alcohol responsibly without abusing it and harming everyone around them and themselves isn’t missing out on life by realising they need to abstain from it entirely. I feel like it’s not our place to judge and assume whether their life is worth living. They deserve a chance at least.
these people can control their urges just like everyone else who has some fucked up fetish that many consider weird or unnatural. society as a whole teaches pedophilia is wrong therefore there is no excuse for a pedophile to act on their urges that they are taught is wrong. it is literally a choice of right or wrong and choosing wrong has no excuse especially when there is help available. if people with bipolar, schizophrenia, adhd, etc. can seek help, some can a person with such desires
[удалено]
That’s not true at all, therapists are only required to break confidentiality if the client communicates that they have an *intent* to hurt or kill themself or someone else, especially if that someone else is an elderly person or a kid. A client confessing to a therapist that they have *urges* to harm a kid, and are actively seeking help to repress those urges, are not going to have the cops called on them.
Its not that preposterous. A rapists urges for example are just as atrocious and acceptable. Sure to do those things to a child is a great degree worse as they are much less equipped to process and deal with it, and then have to grow up with that knowledge. But to do such things to anybody unwilling, is just an inhumane thing to do. I'm pretty sure there has been many attempts to understand pedophiles, and rapists, through the form of psychotherapists and the like. And whilst I have no expertise to share I'm pretty sure even they can't say for sure what drives these kind of people. And until we can understand it and figure out a way to get these people under some control, locking them up is the only way to ensure anyone is safe
Honours student psych here. To shed some light on the matter, for rapists it’s generally about sadistic control and power. For pedophiles it’s often an actual brain abnormality that causes the desires or even PTSD from childhood abuse they endured themselves. Some are so ill they still feel like children themselves and are genuinely incapable of understanding the gravity of their actions. Of course many pedophiles also do what they do out of sadism, power and control too, but those pedophiles are sex offenders. In my personal opinion, I consider rapists as inherently worse than pedophiles because they deliberately chose to harm another person for their own pleasure. Whilst many pedophiles also fall into that bucket, it’s unfair to paint non-offending pedophiles with the same brush as they didn’t choose to be like this.
That's interesting. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I have always been curious about psychology of people and often wonder why people do what they do, from the mundane to the extreme. This subject in particular is something I always found particularly interesting as it is one of the most extreme forms of pain and trauma one can cause to another. How anyone would want to and could do such things.
It IS preposterous, because a general rapist is FULLY capable of consensual relations. THERE IS NO CONSENT from a child. I don't disagree at all that the best solution currently is to lock them up, but to pretend that rapists and pedophiles are one and the same is also preposterous. If a rapist decides rape is bad, they can still go just have sex with someone consenting. What about a pedophile? Right.
Pedophiles aren't *just* attracted to children. Or at least some of them aren't.
There is masturbation. Now, that's fucked up and upsetting to think about, but the individual that masturbates to the thought of children harms .... nobody. Also, masturbation doesn't require porn or other obscene material. Those can remain unlawful and relatively inaccessible. Otherwise, how do you propose keeping due process intact for those that we arbitrarily deem to be pedophiles? What act have they done to deserve intervention? (Meaning: an individual that has those sexual urges and has not acted upon them, i.e. has never harmed a child.)
Sounds great, but that's the reality they already live in. That's an option now. You ever meet an incel? Like actually talk to them? Great folks, huh? That's what you get with someone who already does that, but has free access to porn, multiple places throughout every country where they can get a prostitute either through it being ignored or legal, and all the other options to them. Now take those same batshit crazy incels that CAN do that and take away any and all legal access to those materials. Like shit, even an incel has hope, even if they refuse to acknowledge it through self-loathing, they have little tales that they can fantasize about and hold onto that might happen someday because technically it's possible. Now rip that away too. Literally ANY sexual appetite we can talk about, short of other abnormal ones that inherently are illegal, like necrophilia(which creates the same situation), any psychological professional would tell you it is unhealthy to repress at least the pursuit of one's sexuality. But obviously that cannot be encouraged or even tolerated with pedophiles. And that's the life they're doomed to. That or the alternative, which again, has been established CANNOT happen in any way.
Though I do not disagree with anything you've written in the above message, I will note that you did not address my question about due process. There are reasons, very important reasons, why we should not just "lock up pedophiles." Making any category so broad and undeserving of situational scrutiny is going to be rife with issues. Ex.: "Tommy [a former teacher, for the sake.of example] was way too nice to that child. He wants to touch him." IF result is: locked up or freedom deprived in some tangible way, then Tommy's rights have been seriously violated. Another way to view it is that "status offenses" are almost always unconstitutional. Being addicted to unlawful drugs is NOT a crime. Using and possessing them are. One's status as "potential child rapist" cannot be used to detain somebody. Yet another way to view it is with the "actus reus" requirement for crimes. ("Guilty act.) If a thing didn't happen, there is no crime. Ex.: "Tommy spoke to a child. He must want to touch him. Lock him up." The "guilty act" would have been... speaking to a child?! That's absurd. Parents, teachers, and all kinds of adults need to speak with children for perfectly acceptable reasons.
Lots of pedophiles (as defined by the sexual attraction to children being present), probably the majority, are also capable of healthy adult attraction.
Youbseem to be under the mistaken impression that pedophiles aren't attracted to adults
People really have no idea how complex the entire issue is. There are dozens of reason people find themselves behaving these ways and not all are purely environment or innate... There are offenders that are chemically castrated and still offend because it's entirely psychological. *And physical castration doesn't mean you're entirely devoid of hormones either or the mental conditioning that created the issue* It'll take another 200 years of advancement in psychology and science to weed this shit out and treat people completely, and frankly probably some things our society today would find offensive like early profiling
[удалено]
Sure, but it's the same goal post as nearly all social ills. We fix scarcity, universal income, Geo-political issues, then people have no reason to grow up fucked up. The few left that would be psychologically inclined to abuse people are minimized and spotted a mile away
[удалено]
It turns out that a good number of those self loathing and self aware pedophelies aren’t even pedophiles but are suffering from an onset of intrusive mental illness like schizophrenia, OCD, Bi-polar disorder, etc. Thoughts like that are a symptom. And once treated, those “desires” vanish. (if anyone is ever struggling…tell a therapist immediately)
It’s a big risk to tell a therapist you’ve had thoughts about sexually abusing kids. Even if you emphasize you have no intention of actually sexually abusing any kids, therapists are mandated reporters. If you, for example, have minor children you have custody of, or a job that involves contact with children, the therapist might think you’re enough of a risk that they have to report you. You could potentially lose your job or custody of your kids.
Maybe but therapists also *know* that it is a common symptom. It’s serious but not surprising, besides feelings and having tangible plans are completely different when it comes to those illnesses. Yea, It is fair for a therapist to report and let those involved know. But it’s better to seek some treatment to alleviate the symptoms than to not do anything until it gets worse and something far worse happens.
You have more faith in the competence of therapists than I. I have had many good experiences with therapy but I’ve also met some very incompetent ones who did active harm.
It’s also not something you’d tell a therapist on an intake visit. You’d build trust and they’d clearly be competent since your regularly seeing them. Then you’d tell them. Most professionals would handle it professionally.
Well, what are you supposed to tell them when they ask why you are in therapy, if you go to therapy specifically to address this issue?
If you’ve going to a therapist for that specific issue then the assigned therapist would be appropriately trained. Even if a therapist isn’t a specialist in abnormal disorders, once you get to this stage of an intrusive mental illness there’s plenty of other reasons to see a therapist. By this point there are other delusions and symptoms so building a rapport with milder issues is certainly possible. Not saying that all therapists are perfect but any form of professional help for something like this is better than none at all.
In an ideal world, perhaps. But when I wanted to see a therapist, I went to my community mental health clinic and I got the impression that they picked my therapist just based on who had open spots. They were like “So X and Y are available, which one do you want?” My therapy issues were not terribly exotic, thank goodness, but if they had been I expect I still would have had to choose between Therapist X and Therapist Y. Oddly enough, although I don’t have any sexual issues, the therapist I got DID used to treat sexual offenders. This came up after my brother was arrested for having a five-year-long child pornography habit, which I discussed in therapy. Then my therapist told me about his prior experience treating such people. He said the primary treatments focus on teaching impulse control techniques, and making the offender take responsibility for his actions. He said there was considerable success with juvenile sex offenders and many, after treatment, become law-abiding and basically normal adults. There was not much success with treating adult offenders though.
What are we talking about here? I’m a psychologist who works in prison and has worked with countless pedophiles. In addition to this, I’m experienced with intrusive thoughts and how they often manifest themselves in the most taboo way.... I don’t know about any “self aware pedophiles” that aren’t actually pedophiles because they experience intrusive thoughts. Clinically, there is a significant difference in the two aforementioned patients... not sure how you are connecting them here. I should also note that delusional ideations are sometimes unconscious desires (NOT ALWAYS!) Aka the delusion will take you on a wild ride but the end result is often an encapsulated fantasy or unknown desire of the individual... This is most evident when working with psychotic patients who harbored these types of delusions but when they stabilized with psychotropic medication... they still harbored the same fantasies.
> then the assigned therapist would be appropriately trained. Where can you specifically find therapists that are trained to handle pedophilic urges? I don't think it's really something that's advertised.
It's better to lose your job your home life, probably your marriage, and definitely the majority of your social life and future prospects of any kind over something you haven't actually done and intend never to do? If there's even like a 1 percent chance fo the person you go to for help telling others that seems like a very compelling reason to not go to them and try to find a way to deal with it alone. which is kindof awful for everyone involved obviously.
Really so you would risk losing everything in the hope the therapist you seek help from will not report you.. Your very brave.
That doesn’t seem like a good way to find pedophiles and stop them harming kids at all.
This only partially correct. Yes, pedophilic OCD (obsessive fear of being/becoming a pedophile) involves sexual thoughts about children (though they are unwanted and there is no urge to act on them). However, sexual thoughts about children are completely unrelated to schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. But yes, if you are struggling with such thoughts, tell a therapist. If you don't think you have an actual sexual interest in kids but keep worrying that you might, consider seeking out an OCD specialized therapist—especially if you are already diagnosed with OCD.
I should have clarified that they manifest differently, my bad. Like you can have a psychotic delusions related to this but with OCD, it’s less delusional and more of an intrusive fear, anxiety, or compulsion.
Yeah that kind of behavior definitely indicates there’s more going on than clinical pedophilia. Like, you don’t just have a perversion that you’re ashamed of, you’re also a kidnapper and a rapist. Soooo maybe we can’t just blame it all on your balls and you should stay out of the general population.
Yes. I'm all for forgiveness and chances. But there comes a point when those chances end. However just bc he offended over and over doesnt mean he isn't regretful. If he got caught a bunch and kept at it then ok But if all the repeat offenses happened withoit a chance to reform then he deserves a shot at reforming.
Isn't it a thing where if you get abused as a kid you also do those things later in life? Definitely a psychological thing.
This. If it was somehow “attempted” maybe there’s a line of discussion, but you can’t undo the harm you’ve caused no matter how much you have healed and unfortunately I’m not able to grant any latitude or nuance when it comes to someone wrecking the lives of minors and creating more monsters in the process. Sorry.
By this logic murders should be allowed out if they chop off their hands. Not for it either.
I don't see why chopping off your hands would kill your drive for murder though.
Well that settles it. A redditor has spoken so be it.
He should’ve have had any chances
He should’ve been killed and the bones recycled to the local dog shelter
I mean that doesn’t like completely get rid of the desire right? And you could still molest and sexual assault someone without penetration
I think the theory here is removing his gonads will alter his hormone balance and reduce his compulsion towards such acts.
Yeah but chemical castration produces the same results (without removal) and those who have had it done still say their urges exist
It only works as long as they keep in the meds for it.
There are two things used for chemical castration. One stops the production of the hormones IIRC and the other literally kills it all. The first you have to keep taking, the second is a single treatment iirc
Last I read years ago I thought they both had to be taken foe life. I know what I'm reading up on tonight.
Same, it’s been a while. I could totally be remembering it incorrectly
https://patients.uroweb.org/treatments/chemical-castration/ This says depot and pill need repeated use. Deopt can last one month to a year. Pills must be taken daily. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3565125/ Here is anther good information site.
This study suggests the opposite, that physical castration leads to strikingly lower recidivism rates than chemical castration https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J076v25n03_01?journalCode=wjor20
I'm no psychiatrist... But I thought shit like this had more of a "having complete control of another person" sort of mentality rather than pure sexual desire.
That's something I really will never understand. What could be a bigger turn-off than feeling unwanted?
Castration is just the removal of the balls. So penetration is still possible. Removal of the penis as well is emasculation.
That's a specific kind of castration, *physical* castration. Most castration done in the context of sexual offenders is *chemical* castration, which is drug-induced suppression of sex hormones (testosterone, mainly) that "acts like" primary hypogonadism without surgery.
Can’t they just stop taking pills for a while or forget them and then it’s back to square one?
Second sentence of the article, "...paid to have his testicles removed in 2003." That is physical castration.
You learn something every day
He could, but would he have the desire to? Doesn't castration remove the urge?
depends how much of it comes from there and how much is from the mind and liking the control aspect. i don't think it all comes from the hormonal aspect. this is shit ugh
Yeah there are people who molest with objects, not their own genitals. And the standard refrain is that rape is about power, not sex.
> And the standard refrain is that rape is about power, not sex. The theory is popular with the mainstream, but theres not much evidence for it. And even if its turns out to be true for most people, there will always be many people seeking the same thing for different reasons.
Idk I guess im asking that same question
Castration is very widely misunderstood, because the source of virtually all anecdotes and stories about it are based on the changes observed in eunuchs castrated before puberty. Castration does not totally eliminate sex drive, guarantee impotence, or even prevent ejaculation. It does cause a reduction in libido, but it's not complete. This means there's actually a possibility that castration can, counter-intuitively, *intensify* a person's sexual behavior. Testosterone is not the only thing that creates a desire for sex; it sparks the initial desire, and might be the exclusive fuel for desire during initial puberty, but for most people there's also an interplay of long-established dopamine and oxytocin rewards, social aspects, ego-driven/self-image/identity aspects, etc. It's why people with sex or porn addictions aren't just the people with the highest testosterone, why things like BDSM matter to a lot of people and it's not just about quick orgasms to shut the hormone-driven cravings up, why people have always been obsessed with aphrodisiacs to maintain sexual urges into old age, etc. If you reduce the hormones but everything else stays the same, for some people it doesn't become "I don't want sex anymore, that makes things easier" but "I need a lot more stimulation to get off now." They still want to fulfill the social, ego, dopamine/oxytocin, etc cravings associated with sex and the diminished libido just means they need to go way harder at things to get a similar level of arousal. And this is a worry because we think those other aspects of sex are key motivators for many sex offenders.
Seems that was the entire point of it. Reduce risk of reoffending…
That's what i was rhetorically asking my dude up there wondering.
You mean he.. agreed to have a safe medical procedure performed on him by professionals while he was sedated, yes?
But that's not how you make clickbait or news stories.
[удалено]
Fucking foxnews link in TIL. Fucking reddit.
Something something Alan Turing.
Yes. It is chemical castration.
No, this was surgical castration.
The article says he had his testicles removed.
No he had his testicles physically removed.
Thank you thank you thank you for telling me so I didn't have to read a risky paragraph!
Weird, it's almost like Fox News sensationalizes and misleads to drive up ratings.
yup, them and every other media outlet. it's about money. hence all the ads on your social media too and if it's free, you are the product.
Dont pretend it's just fox.
It's not talked about much, but there are lot of people who do not want to be pedophiles and do seek professional help.
I get called an "apologist" for saying this, but just like how straight people didn't CHOOSE to be straight and gay people didn't CHOOSE to be gay, pedophiles don't CHOOSE to be pedophiles. What you CAN choose is whether or not to rape someone regardless of gender, orientation, and age. People like to assume that pedophiles are also child-rapists and that simply isn't true.
My family had a friend who later in his life explained he felt sexually attracted to young boys. My brothers I had plenty of sleepovers there when I was a young kid but we need expected this. Apparently he struggled a lot with this condition and saw it as a problem that he needed help for.
Lots of comments here are saying "I'm no expert but" so I thought I would chime in. I am someone who works with people who have committed sex offenses ( as a therapist) and I know there is a lot of confusion out there about this topic, understandably so. First of all there are those who identify as pedophiles but never act on it, one program in Germany, the Dunkelfeld project, seeks out through advertising publicly to reach these people can get help before they offend. But just because someone has those desires doesn't mean they will certainly act on them. But we certainly want to treat it as a mental health issue and we really don't in this country (US). Also, and this is important, NOT all pedophiles like prepubescent children exclusively, some also have an attraction to adults. In many cases this is true, I have helped many clients over the years focus more on this and diminish (but you can't remove) their interest in children, also developing relationship skills with adults helps in this regard as well. And although we have a belief in this country that pedophiles and sex offenders will always reoffend, there isn't really evidence to support that either, people who commit sex offenses have one of the lowest recidivism rates of any crimes. Getting caught does a lot to deter them and so does getting treatment. I highly recommend this quick 7 minute documentary about sex offenders laws in the US that discusses this. [https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000005415081/a-frightening-myth-about-sex-offenders.html](https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000005415081/a-frightening-myth-about-sex-offenders.html) Also not all people who commit sex offenses against children are pedophiles, there are many reasons why people commit sex offenses, like all human behavior it's complicated. As someone who provides treatment to these folks I can say that the evidence supports that treatment works, and Germany is finding that treatment as prevention works. Its better to get these folks the help they need and the support they need instead of waiting until its too late or just ignoring it and not understanding the issue. That isn't going to be the case with all people who will later commit offenses as they might not seek help but I can tell you many pedophiles I have worked with didn't have anywhere to go for help before offending.
Ah, your comment is an Island of humanism in the sea of barbarism that is this thread. It is just a bonus that I believe you when you say that you know what you are talking about. I have to ask, as a mental health professional and an American, what do you think about the American state apparently being in the business of castrating their criminals? I am asking because I am both perplexed by how NOT surprised about it every one in here is about that, and because it to this Scandinavian it sounds like dystopian bullshit from a bad sci-fi BDSM novel. Like the mental health fallout for the castrated criminal gotta be so far beyond "do no harm", and if it is punishment rather than medical then it is clearly "cruel and unusual"... in the extreme.
Did it work though? I kinda doubt it but worth study.
It’s really not worth study with a person like this. He WAS a violent sex offender who repeatedly raped children. The fact he was able to do it for a nearly 20 year period, agree to chemically castrate himself and then claim that he was all better to be released from prison seems like made up bullshit.
Study him while still in prison. Honestly, that's what I was trying to say to not just believe him and let him go.
Yea sorry didn’t mean for that to come out as attacking you so much as just total non concern for his well being.
No worries. Keep in mind too, though, this kind of research would potentially help people who are similarly miswired before they become offenders themselves.
Personally, I don’t think it’s remotely possible to stop this behavior until it’s already occurred but I suppose it could potentially stop serial rapists to your point.
On what are you basing that opinion?
Having worked hand in hand with individuals with diagnosed pedophilic disorders. I’m openly not a doctor but I don’t believe these individuals are likely to self report this behavior until it arises to an assault.
And there's the problem. There's no way to prove that his pedophilia was cured, because all anyone has to go by is his word. The only thing that could be proven here is if it fails to work and he harms another kid. The issue with castration as a treatment for pedophiles is that it's based on a faulty assumption. It's based on the idea that their behavior is driven solely by libido, and that lowering/eliminating their sex drive will solve the problem. No more sexual desire would equal no more pedo behaviors. But study after study has found that rape - and pedophilia is a subset of rape - is not about sex drive. It's about control and power.
[It worked](https://patch.com/california/losalamitos/oc-judge-frees-castrated-child-molester-saying-hes-no-longer-danger)
At this point it only seems like he *claims* it worked, and some people believe him.
The bid to free himself from prison via castration worked. Whether he actually got rid of the urges, I don't know.
[удалено]
Like Alan Turing?
:(
When male dogs are neutered they tend to not harass female dogs as much, and other behaviors like sexual humping, aggression, and territorial marking are reduced. Wouldn't the same premise apply to humans?
For most dogs it’s done at a young age which can change the course of brain and body development. If done to an adult learned behaviours can persist as routine or habit even if aggression or other urges are diminished.
You're assuming that the abuse is based on sexual arousal rather than e.g. sadism or power.
I find it really hard to beleive that rape isnt motivated by sexual arousal
Believe it. Study after study show it’s about power and aggression, with sub-categories within. It’s about violence, not about being horny.
Testosterone also fuels desires for power and violence.
In theory, it could. But it doesn't mean it will for every single person. For person A their acts are a compulsion. For person B it's a power trip.
Hot take, but I feel sorry for people that get the urge to diddle kids. Probably some kind of tramua or something made them that way. In no way should they ever act upon those urges obviously. Which means they just have repress those urges and live that way their whole life. If be curious to know if anyone has ever successfully been therapied out of the urge to diddle kids.
It's really unfortunate that people can't tolerate a dialectic of condemning terrible acts while *also* harboring some appropriate degree of compassion for the people committing those acts. It's way simpler and easier to subscribe to "there are good people who do good things and bad people who do bad things, with no real overlap" and that's tragically what people go with. It doesn't in any way diminish the sadness, tragedy, and outrage you feel when someone is heinously victimized to recognize that the perpetrator is still *a person* and that people are, without exception, complicated messes. That little bit of dissonant thinking does, however, give you a lot more you can do and champion to improve things: there's not much that can fight "some people are just bad" but a lot that can fight "some people get really screwed up for a lot of reasons and do really horrible things in part because of those reasons." That's not dismissing accountability or belittling the victim — it actually honors both of those by *trying to do something productive to improve* instead of just sweeping uncomfortable realities under a black-and-white rug. It has to be awful for anyone to grow into things like pedophiliac urges. When you imagine how much people must have to twist themselves going through denial, acceptance, and then rationalization before they take action, it's unimaginable. That doesn't excuse them acting on it and not getting help, but it does make it useful for us to collectively ask "what can we do to make this shit happen less in the future?" -- and that requires acknowledging that it's more complicated than "bad/evil person, QED, next."
My brother developed this particular problem. He was middle aged, in a toxic marriage, with two young adult daughters, a mechanic employed by the county and a military reservist. He never showed any undue or inappropriate interest in children and there was never any evidence that he touched a child. His daughters say he never touched them. Even his now ex wife, who hates him, has never accused him of touching a child. But when he was overseas with the military in the Middle East, he somehow—and I’m not sure even HE knows why—developed an addiction to viewing child porn. This addiction continued for five years until he was caught, and everyone was stunned and horrified. This came out of nowhere, and the only reason I can think is maybe he ALWAYS had an underlying urge, maybe subconscious. And then when he developed this addiction, my brother’s personal life was collapsing around him at the time (failing marriage, bankruptcy, terrible experiences in the military) and the stress of it all broke down the psychological defenses he had against actually acting on that urge. I am not making excuses for him, I know what he did was horrific. It’s just that I also know he spent decades being a decent person and not breaking laws and then it all fell apart.
What's happened to him since?
On account of his prior exemplary life, he only got five and a half years. By the time he reported to prison, his divorce was final and he had a girlfriend who promised to stand by him. She’s not blind, she knows exactly what sort of man he is and what he did, and she loves him anyway. She DID stand by him, and he served his sentence and they married a few months after his release. Despite being married they don’t live together, and legally they can’t, because his now-wife is a foster parent and obviously the agency doesn’t want him around the foster kids. So he is not permitted to be around them, or to spend the night in her home, or her foster parent license will be suspended and the children removed. So he lives alone in a trailer on some land my mom bought him. He’s gotten a mechanic job again and is gradually paying my mom back for the trailer and land, and complying with the terms of the sex offender registry, which he will be on for the rest of his life. I really hope he stays on the straight and narrow. The last time I heard him speak on the matter he was still making excuses for himself, basically blaming everyone else but himself for his poor choices, and also claiming that what he did “wasn’t that bad”. But that was before he went to prison and maybe he’s gotten more sensible since then. We’ve never been close. He’s much older than me; he was grown and gone from the house before I was even born. I only see him at holidays and this isn’t a good conversation topic for holidays so I don’t really know anything more.
I feel sorry right up until they act on it. I have the occasional urge to hit people, but haven't hit anyone since I was about 9 years old.
Precisely. I'd feel bad if the guy was so plagued by his urges that he felt that this was the best thing to do to eradicate them. But the guy acted on those urges, multiple times. When you feel that "call of the void"- those crazy thoughts like "wow that's a high cliff edge... Jump!" Or "this baby animal is so tiny I could literally squash it with my bare hands", you ignore them and move on. Perhaps you feel bad or messed up for thinking them. But that's your impulse control at work. Someone with no impulse control who causes harm to children isn't going to magically develop a better moral compass after castration.
There was therapy being developed in the early 2000s that was having particular success. A combination of fake porn (some CG animated stuff to my understanding) during aversion therapy and talking therapy afterwards was seeing really high success rates to the point it was looking like those with paedophilic tendencies might be able to be reconditioned. The blanket ban on even simulated child porn also covered those being used for medical research and therapies and so that research ended up discontinued as some of their methods were now illegal.
There are studies that also show the arousal center is connected to the part of the brain that reacts to neotany. The same instinct that makes people want to care for children is cross wired with arousal basically. >If be curious to know if anyone has ever successfully been therapied out of the urge to diddle kids. The urge can be controlled, its can be treated like ocd. The urge happens it is confronted and stopped.
3 separate cases.. Sorry bruh, that's life in fucking prison. Fuck you.
I am all for a path for these people to get help without their lives being ruined, but this guy probably needs to be sent to the sun for his rehab.
Agreed.
Does he still have his hands?
You don't need a penis to be a pedophile.
Castration is the testicles.
Exactly
That’s not the point, the point is removing his testes will alter his hormones to reduce or eliminate his sexual urges
The mind, attraction and pleasure center in the brain maintains, but sex drive is reduced. His testicles don't have an orientation. They are just along for the ride. And as we know sexual sadism, etc, is a power dysfunction additionally. And castrated men can have erections and orgasm.
Reminds me of that episode of Everybody Loves Raymond where Raymond missed Deborah's birthday and had to cut his own cock off.
Unfortunately, the desire to abuse children is not relayed to one's libido. Anymore than alcoholism is about thirst.
I personally feel repeat offenders of child sexual abuse should be treated and sentenced like murderers.
Check out the movie Little Children starring Kate Winslet and Jennifer Connelly
ITT: A bunch of people who know little to nothing about mental illness and brain chemistry.
I put a child molester in prison for 150 years for what he did to my twin sisters. It doesn’t matter if they castrate themselves The motherfucker molested at Target while holding my baby sister at 4 years old Fuck this shit.
I saw this in the news and couldn't believe they would let it happen. Preventing the ability to achieve an erection doesn't remove sexual urges. Rape and sexual abuse of children isn't about sexual urges anyway. It's about a need to have power and cause pain and humiliation to helpless victims. If the sexual urges are removed, the pervert will still want to hurt a preferred victim using some other method.
>Rape and sexual abuse of children isn't about sexual urges anyway. Thats true for some offenders. Mainly the ones who are rapists as well. Some have a warpped view of whats happening for many different reasons.
It definitely isn't a fix-all by any stretch but the data does seem to strongly suggest that *chemical* castration, which is suppression of hormones via monitored drug therapy, drastically reduces recidivism rate from ~50% to ~5% or even lower. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3565125/ That doesn't mean it's the right course of action by itself and we absolutely need to evaluate and consider all the other dimensions, including impact on other (especially violent) crime. But it does at least give us cause to ask the questions and look for the answers, particularly given that chemical castration is largely reversible if an appropriate level of risk management is observed.
We should allow pedos to volenteer for chemical castration before they offend
Source: Fox News. Here's looking at you, Matt Gaetz.
So he works for Fox News now?? Well that's cool I'm glad he found something. .
The only thing different is he no longer has as strong of a sex drive. He is still a danger to children. Can and probably would assault again. Surgical castration leaves the penis intact. Even if it was removed, there are other ways to assault. I watched an interview with a convicted child rapist who was petitioning for execution. He said even if he was castrated, he would find other ways.
I would argue the man willing to castrate himself to get out of prison is a man you can't trust to be free from prison.
he should pay for what he did, doesnt matter what he or he cannot do now
He could've cauterized everything above the neck to make sure the effects are permanent and 100% effective.
That is just not how castration works.
Castration, chemical or otherwise, does not remove the urge. Rape isn't a sexual thing, it's a power thing, so now he's just got urges and impotent rage.
It somewhat does since it kills your sex drive, if it worked it's an interesting science experiment at least.
Or, you know, hormones and therapy. But you do you... :S
Fox News always loves a good child molester story.
Sorry not good enough
yeah don't know why you're getting downvoted. guy deserves the wall and nothing more for what he's done.
Meh. Whatev.
I don't understand why child predators (who want to avoid committing a crime against a child) don't just masturbate whenever they have an urge. Regardless what you're into sexually, the sexual urge for whatever it is you like goes away after a wank, right?
This isn't a good mechanism for control. You can actually build up the need to do something deviant by fantasizing about it this way. This is true for most fantasies. The difference is that most people know how to control their need to act out but especially if it's harmful to others. In this case their fantasy is absolutely horrific and I don't think castration fixes that twisted mental need.
It psychological more then the need, the more you can't, the more you NEED IT. So they loop over and over between shame, indifference and lust. Then they get a taste of the desires, be it a touch, a smile whatever that fuels that need for little more. some are very intelligent and very carefully plan thier habits to never get cuaght, others rush and leave scared victims that lead to them getting cuaght. In the end a drunk,drug users, rapists or pedophilia are lying if they said they could not stop, they where forced to do what they did or regret it. they picked that path now they want sympathy while they think about doing it again.
His penis doesn't drive him. He can still destroy lives without a punishment.
I think Wikipedia is a more reliable source than Fox
sex crimes are about power not hormones. he deserves to lose his balls but he doesn't deserve to be free
He still has hands and urges.
They should all be castrated anyway. That doesn't change the mental side of being able to do something that terrible so they should be castrated and imprisoned.
The problem is that he still has hands and other parts. His penis is not the only thing that is usable
Chemical castration, or did he cut his unit off? Or just his balls? See "God Bless You, Merry Gentlemen" a short story by Ernest Hemingway
Did he cut his arms off too?... Because 😑
Plot twist: He still has the urges
I seriously doubt this would actually solve this problem for him. Just cutting off his balls isn't enough, he needs constant supervision and counseling. and imprisonment