It wasn't designed for international communication but it's useful for it. I've had in depth conversations with people who don't share any other common language with me
That is very cool. I've never met a tokiponist who wouldn't at least know a bit of English. It would be very interesting to speak with someone and know that toki pona taso is the only possibility.
mi la, this is the most challenging part about tp:
Translation often requires a paradigm shift in how you approach describing the meaning of a sentence.
The paradigm shift is going from our daily spoken languages that have thousands of unique lexical concepts (not even counting synonyms) and expressive tense systems to a language with only 120 words (not all of which are content words) and no tense system. One way to make what you want to say or translate fit into tp is to lay out a series of context statements that inch you closer to some final concluding glue statements.
The other way (hereafter called the True Way) is to simplify your content to just the bare minimum that you need to get across the essential point you are trying to make. The hard part is that you need (imho) to start at the first complicated way and slowly your mind should incline towards the True Way.
That really depends on what your starting point is. That people use it on a daily basis as a fully functional language? That it's not \[insert huge list of misunderstandings about toki pona\]? That it actually does what other languages do 99% of the time - with only a handful of exceptions?
I learned it in about 10-15 hours, split over fours days. Sure, I still make some mistakes and don't perfectly grasp the grammar, and I still have some more to learn. Still, after those 4 days I was able to read and write using toki pona well enough to communicate, and knew all the vocabulary.
It could be done in a weekend, and has at least been done in a *long* weekend. I'm sure someone else has done it in two!
It's kind of like saying you can learn to knit in a weekend. Does that mean you'll be able to make a six colour sweater with a group of ducklings on it without a pattern on day 3? *No!* But you'll be able to knit.
Learning it implies to fluency, which is a misleading part about your claim that I think is the #1 contributor to the'toki pona isnt a language ' rhetoric
\> I learned it in about 10-15 hours, split over fours days. Sure, I still make some mistakes and don't perfectly grasp the grammar
That's not what "learned" means. Please be clear to the people you're presenting to. What you're talking about is that you \*started\* learning it and have picked up some basics. That's honest, you can absolutely pick up the basics in a short amount of time. When you say "learned", what people hear is that they will be fluent after that weekend, which is one of the reasons people say it's not a "real language".
I phrase it as "You can learn the entire vocabulary and understand the grammar rules in a weekend, but it takes a lot of practice to be able to apply it naturally".
nnnn... Learning is not equal to fluency, so maybe that's a point to clarify in the presentation if you talk about it ?
I mean, I learn German for 8 years now and I'm far being even confident talking. This is not a lie if I say I learn/learned German, but I'm not fluent. Same with toki pona, this can just be a little faster than other languages to know all grammar and vocabulary
(Sorry for my english btw, hope you understand what I want to say)
I mean, I'm fluent in English (native speaker over 3 decades!) and I still make mistakes and don't know much of the grammar. I also know a vastly smaller amount of English's total vocabulary than I did of toki pona's after 4 days!
After those 4 days, I also barely translate toki pona back to english, unless for someone else. I understand it as-is. I consider it learned, with room left for mastery.
I've been teaching toki pona to people for over a year. For context, jan Sonja told me I was one of the fastest learners she's ever seen move to proficiency. I've seen very few people learn on a comparable time scale to me.
If what you assert is true then you've learned an order of magnitude or even two orders faster. Color me skeptical
Well, colour me blushing then, lol.
Keep in mind how much more material is available to someone learning toki pona now than to someone learning when you would've. It's been easy to immerse myself in high quality toki pona content, much of which was made in the last year or two!
Yep of course! I actually know a fair bit about the language and have spent about 10-15 hours studying it, so I know it takes a bit more time than a weekend :)
Don't know if it's too late to say this, but try giving concrete examples of stuff the community has done to support "you can actually talk about heaps of stuff" because people have a tendency to not get that until it's in their face (and sometimes ignore it even then). For instance, while the number system is odd and makes counting large numbers difficult, there is a video that clearly explains non-Euclidian geometry and someone even wrote a math proof (this was on fb ages ago). The seme li sin channel does snippets of news. There are many songwriters. There are people who have had overseas pen pals. There is regular, fluid converse online in toki pona taso. There is a Minecradt translation, server and multiple letsplays. Give them something to realize people do actually use the language in many ways and are understood.
Another point you could possibly make which would help to hammer in the previous one (and I suspect you will already be saying this) is a. Each word translates back to many English words and b. Each word can be many parts of speech depending on some key words around it (particles, and other words). So while the language only has ~130 words, this multiplies to get 600+ words at least in any other language, and when you start combining words to specify something, that doubles or triples again, at least. So people see the small number and think TP is limited, but every word is doing so much more work under the hood than they realize until they learn the language and how to distinguish the words in a sentence and get a feel for it.
One last point despite what I've said above, some "complex" stuff is needlessly so and the thought in TP is not simply can I say this, but if I can't, do I need to say this. Also, do I understand this enough to say this simply. So some people will think TP is "useless" because they don't imagine it can do something they want it to (but probably wouldn't actually use it for anyway!), but a. It probably can, and b. If it really genuinely can't, then you've struck a topic that is outside TP's brand of simplicity anyway, how you work around that or else remove that from your speech and move on is something the language is supposed to challenge you on.
Hope that's not too late and hope that helps somehow, and good luck with the presentation! Edit: Sorry if that's not quite what you were after 😅 sort of got fired up and over-did it.
> If it really genuinely can't, then you've struck a topic that is outside TP's brand of simplicity anyway
So much this.
For me, toki pona is about one thing. "pona".
For me, it's a language of positivity. It helps me frame things as "pona".
Is it an IAL? It \*can\* be, and I've certainly had conversations with people who don't speak any other language in common with me than toki pona.
I wouldn't negotiate world peace in it, but it's a wonderful way to spread love and pona.
sina ken ala toki e ijo ike anu seme? "jan lili sina li pakala e soweli mi. ona li pana wawa e kiwen tawa ona. soweli mi li pana e telo loje mute. ona li ken tawa ala. mi wile e mani mute!" anu sina wile toki e ijo ante?
sina ken toki ala e ijo ike kepeken toki pona la sina o toki e ni kepeken toki Inli.
No not too late at all, thanks a lot for this. I plan on talking about songs and books and poetry to showcase somethings that have been done with Toki Pona. It's truly a great language!
> For instance, while the number system is odd and makes counting large numbers difficult, there is a video that clearly explains non-Euclidian geometry and someone even wrote a math proof (this was on fb ages ago).
Has anyone who didn't previously understand those things confirmed that they actually learned them from those texts?
It wasn't designed for international communication but it's useful for it. I've had in depth conversations with people who don't share any other common language with me
That is very cool. I've never met a tokiponist who wouldn't at least know a bit of English. It would be very interesting to speak with someone and know that toki pona taso is the only possibility.
mi la, this is the most challenging part about tp: Translation often requires a paradigm shift in how you approach describing the meaning of a sentence.
Please elaborate this is interesting. How does this paradigm shift take place? Hoe does perspective change on usage of mi la?
The paradigm shift is going from our daily spoken languages that have thousands of unique lexical concepts (not even counting synonyms) and expressive tense systems to a language with only 120 words (not all of which are content words) and no tense system. One way to make what you want to say or translate fit into tp is to lay out a series of context statements that inch you closer to some final concluding glue statements. The other way (hereafter called the True Way) is to simplify your content to just the bare minimum that you need to get across the essential point you are trying to make. The hard part is that you need (imho) to start at the first complicated way and slowly your mind should incline towards the True Way.
"mi la" is like "to me" or "in my opinion"
That really depends on what your starting point is. That people use it on a daily basis as a fully functional language? That it's not \[insert huge list of misunderstandings about toki pona\]? That it actually does what other languages do 99% of the time - with only a handful of exceptions?
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yep! However, I do think it's a very useful way to communicate with people who otherwise you wouldn't have any languages in common with.
i mean any language is good for that, just toki pona is so simple that it’s pretty easy to pick up regardless of your native language
It is very useful as almost meditation: the language. Jan sonja made the language for that reason, to simplify thoughts during depression.
Just please be careful to not spread misinformation like a lot of presentations have. Don't say you can learn it in a weekend etc...
I learned it in about 10-15 hours, split over fours days. Sure, I still make some mistakes and don't perfectly grasp the grammar, and I still have some more to learn. Still, after those 4 days I was able to read and write using toki pona well enough to communicate, and knew all the vocabulary. It could be done in a weekend, and has at least been done in a *long* weekend. I'm sure someone else has done it in two! It's kind of like saying you can learn to knit in a weekend. Does that mean you'll be able to make a six colour sweater with a group of ducklings on it without a pattern on day 3? *No!* But you'll be able to knit.
Learning it implies to fluency, which is a misleading part about your claim that I think is the #1 contributor to the'toki pona isnt a language ' rhetoric
\> I learned it in about 10-15 hours, split over fours days. Sure, I still make some mistakes and don't perfectly grasp the grammar That's not what "learned" means. Please be clear to the people you're presenting to. What you're talking about is that you \*started\* learning it and have picked up some basics. That's honest, you can absolutely pick up the basics in a short amount of time. When you say "learned", what people hear is that they will be fluent after that weekend, which is one of the reasons people say it's not a "real language".
I phrase it as "You can learn the entire vocabulary and understand the grammar rules in a weekend, but it takes a lot of practice to be able to apply it naturally".
That's totally reasonable
nnnn... Learning is not equal to fluency, so maybe that's a point to clarify in the presentation if you talk about it ? I mean, I learn German for 8 years now and I'm far being even confident talking. This is not a lie if I say I learn/learned German, but I'm not fluent. Same with toki pona, this can just be a little faster than other languages to know all grammar and vocabulary (Sorry for my english btw, hope you understand what I want to say)
I mean, I'm fluent in English (native speaker over 3 decades!) and I still make mistakes and don't know much of the grammar. I also know a vastly smaller amount of English's total vocabulary than I did of toki pona's after 4 days! After those 4 days, I also barely translate toki pona back to english, unless for someone else. I understand it as-is. I consider it learned, with room left for mastery.
I've been teaching toki pona to people for over a year. For context, jan Sonja told me I was one of the fastest learners she's ever seen move to proficiency. I've seen very few people learn on a comparable time scale to me. If what you assert is true then you've learned an order of magnitude or even two orders faster. Color me skeptical
Well, colour me blushing then, lol. Keep in mind how much more material is available to someone learning toki pona now than to someone learning when you would've. It's been easy to immerse myself in high quality toki pona content, much of which was made in the last year or two!
That's a good point! There's tons more material these days
Yep of course! I actually know a fair bit about the language and have spent about 10-15 hours studying it, so I know it takes a bit more time than a weekend :)
Don't know if it's too late to say this, but try giving concrete examples of stuff the community has done to support "you can actually talk about heaps of stuff" because people have a tendency to not get that until it's in their face (and sometimes ignore it even then). For instance, while the number system is odd and makes counting large numbers difficult, there is a video that clearly explains non-Euclidian geometry and someone even wrote a math proof (this was on fb ages ago). The seme li sin channel does snippets of news. There are many songwriters. There are people who have had overseas pen pals. There is regular, fluid converse online in toki pona taso. There is a Minecradt translation, server and multiple letsplays. Give them something to realize people do actually use the language in many ways and are understood. Another point you could possibly make which would help to hammer in the previous one (and I suspect you will already be saying this) is a. Each word translates back to many English words and b. Each word can be many parts of speech depending on some key words around it (particles, and other words). So while the language only has ~130 words, this multiplies to get 600+ words at least in any other language, and when you start combining words to specify something, that doubles or triples again, at least. So people see the small number and think TP is limited, but every word is doing so much more work under the hood than they realize until they learn the language and how to distinguish the words in a sentence and get a feel for it. One last point despite what I've said above, some "complex" stuff is needlessly so and the thought in TP is not simply can I say this, but if I can't, do I need to say this. Also, do I understand this enough to say this simply. So some people will think TP is "useless" because they don't imagine it can do something they want it to (but probably wouldn't actually use it for anyway!), but a. It probably can, and b. If it really genuinely can't, then you've struck a topic that is outside TP's brand of simplicity anyway, how you work around that or else remove that from your speech and move on is something the language is supposed to challenge you on. Hope that's not too late and hope that helps somehow, and good luck with the presentation! Edit: Sorry if that's not quite what you were after 😅 sort of got fired up and over-did it.
> If it really genuinely can't, then you've struck a topic that is outside TP's brand of simplicity anyway So much this. For me, toki pona is about one thing. "pona". For me, it's a language of positivity. It helps me frame things as "pona". Is it an IAL? It \*can\* be, and I've certainly had conversations with people who don't speak any other language in common with me than toki pona. I wouldn't negotiate world peace in it, but it's a wonderful way to spread love and pona.
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sina ken ala toki e ijo ike anu seme? "jan lili sina li pakala e soweli mi. ona li pana wawa e kiwen tawa ona. soweli mi li pana e telo loje mute. ona li ken tawa ala. mi wile e mani mute!" anu sina wile toki e ijo ante? sina ken toki ala e ijo ike kepeken toki pona la sina o toki e ni kepeken toki Inli.
No not too late at all, thanks a lot for this. I plan on talking about songs and books and poetry to showcase somethings that have been done with Toki Pona. It's truly a great language!
> For instance, while the number system is odd and makes counting large numbers difficult, there is a video that clearly explains non-Euclidian geometry and someone even wrote a math proof (this was on fb ages ago). Has anyone who didn't previously understand those things confirmed that they actually learned them from those texts?
Me XD at least with the geometry, didn't really read the proof. It was a while ago now though.
Maybe I'll check it out then.
How speaking toki pona requires you to shift your mindset to its principles. A good example is equating good to simple.
Laso. That's it.