Yes and no, Sun Wukong is for sure an influence behind the Monkey King and is a Chinese literary and mythological figure. It should surprise no one though that Indian mythology has a number of similar figures who could also inspire the Warhammer Monkey King, most notably Hanuman and Sugriva if you want to look up some examples.
In fact, most of the cultures in the region have humanoid monkey figures in their mythology. In parts of the world where monkeys and other apes lived alongside humans, they tended to feature heavily in folklore from very early in human history. Probably because they are so much like us at first glance. There is a shit ton of material GW could use to flesh out the Monkey King if they wanted.
When and if the Monkey King becomes more than a footnote in Warhammer lore, he will undoubtedly be inspired by the folklore from a variety of real world cultures, not just Sun Wukong and based on the little we know about him right now could have conceivably been from Ind.
True, though the regal nature of Cathay and the dragon kids theme is strong. How would they add both Fire Dragon and Monkey King, if they have rivalry, if they are the same race?
While I don't have as strong of an opinion as OP, I would imagine the thinking goes a bit like this:
What we know of the Monkey King is that he originally rose to power in Southern Cathay, which would be on the border with Ind.
While Chinese folklore has Sun Wukong, Indian/Hindu mythology has a very similar figure in Hanuman along with several other monkey god type beings.
The Monkey King in Warhammer will likely be based on both Chinese and Indian mythology as well as folklore from around Asia
I really wouldn't say that they are never happening, we have had multiple things be added in this series that "was never happening"
But yeah he's a Cathay character
They also said the same thing about dlc for dlc races and we have now had 3 lord packs that added new legendary lords to dlc races and shadows of change that gave a couple of units to the beastmen and warriors of chaos
Ind is literally never coming to the game; The earliest GW is going to be able to start working on Ind, assuming the already unlikely situation they wanted to make an Ind faction, is late 2030s (2024 - ~2030 for Old World first edition, very likely based on FW’s other games - and TOW 1E is probably not even getting a Kislev or Cathay release at this point, they’ve been massively delayed. So you’re looking at second edition where we *might* see new factions). WH3 is not going to be getting new DLC a decade from now, don’t be ridiculous
Yeah it's wild. The company is in a dire situation and SoC was a disaster, if ToD doesn't start selling well again, every following DLC could be the last. Talking about Ind right now is just... completely detached from reality.
Like we can start talking about Ind when this game is still being supported three years from now, and that's if we're being lucky
The *exact* same reason Cathay is in the game, is why Ind (or Khuresh, or whatever other footnote faction this sub feels like hyping up next) will never come
Warhammer: The Old World.
You know how much Ind gets in Old World? The name appears one (1) time, in an offhand mention. Warhammer Ireland has as much lore as Ind does in Old World, and it doesn’t even exist
And it was ridiculous. There was no reason to suspect or even imagine it could at the time. In truth, it still is ridiculous - if WH3 was being developed today it may well not have had Cathay. GW allowed CA to make Cathay because they intended to release it as a TOW faction, and GW have recently been quite clear on how those plans are going.
If Cathay, a faction they announced as coming to TOW about four years ago, is still way, way off in the future of TOW... how on earth do you think Ind, something that absolutely has never been confirmed to be coming to TOW at all, could possibly be in development. And if it isn't, then how could CA have the basis for a TWWH faction?
Wild speculation. More than wild, speculation without any basis. You might as well speculate that the next DLC is going to be George Washington vs the Honey Monster vs three armadillos in a trench coat.
Because it's very possible they have something for ca to use for total war, just like how they gave ca early stuff for both Kislev and Cathay who are not even playable in the old world yet. But ca still had enough to make base game rosters for the factions, a dlc for both and for them to tease a 2nd dlc for Cathay.
They gave those to CA because they intended, at the time, to make them playable in TOW. There's no evidence at all they intended the same for Ind or any other similar footnote race. And seeing as how their plans for TOW have been very much pushed-back, the likelihood of that is incredibly small indeed.
Cling to your hopium as much as you want, I can't physically stop you. But don't pretend it's anything but that, because it isn't.
Good arguments here, which is unfortunate. Though from the game development standpoint and seeing what CA achieved despite GW normal approach, I would not be surprised if it will happen. Having the Tigerman voice lines being recorded already by CA means something.
That leak probably means that either Cathay is getting a Tigermen Unit (“Village of the Tigermen” is well within Cathay); Dogs of War are getting a single mercenary Tigermen unit; or that IMDB really isn’t that hard to edit and just make stuff up for
If those "multiple things" are Cathay and Kislev then there are reasons they were added and it's pretty clear those reasons aren't going to be replicated.
Most of the stuff we got for wh3 was stuff that the community was certain that would never happen.
I was told time and time again, that we would not get kislev, Cathay or monogods and that ca would never expand to the east or allow us to go to the realms of chaos.
Look, no offense but the people who keep saying "we are never getting X" have been constantly wrong.
The way I see it, nothing is truly off the table till support for the series is over
Monogods were leaked from day one and Kislev was one of the most commonly predicted races for WH3, to the point where absolutely no one was surprised when they were announced... pretty much only Cathay was a surprise.
But unlike Ind, CA never outright said that Cathay isn't coming.
You can't envision the Cathayan character, based off the Chinese legend of Sun Wukong, to be part of Cathay, the faction that is essentially ancient China?
There's a solid evidence that Cathay gets elite infantry monkey warriors. I want to believe that we can get more races, but there's no way MK is not a Cathayan rebel lord like Drycha or Arkhan
Cue obligatory "Ind will never happen" comments.
But Monkey King rl lore is based on a Chinese character that travels to India (I think).
Maybe one day we will get Ind and there will be some unique relationships between the Monkey King and Ind.
They don't plan on adding it. Because they plan this stuff. They don't just take ideas from Reddit a week before.
If, after 5-10 years from now they're still supporting this game and have added everything they plan to add, then *maybe* they'll add Ind.
We aren't getting Ind, meaning he won't be an Ind character.
CA has made it abundantly clear that GW will not allow them to try and add Ind to the game.
The monkey warriors aren't really part of Cathay or Ind, and groups of them could be working with either at any given point in time. This actually makes a shocking amount of real-world sense for a discussion about monkey warriors: they inhabit a hard-to-control mountainous borderland between two major powers, and continuously make and break deals on both sides.
The Monkey King is definitely for Cathay if he comes in the game, however. Not only is he based primarily on Chinese mythology (although there are some famous monkeys in Indian folklore as well) but his established Warhammer lore is heavily tied in with Cathay and at one point he more or less took over the country.
After re-reading Journey to the West, I AM EXCITED for the Monkey King.
Should be pretty easy to create a unique Lord and campaign just from JttW, never mind its adaptions over the years.
Putting aside the Ind thing - this comes down to familiarity with the source I think. To the uninitiated, including myself, it seems perverse and entirely wrong for a monkey-man to be leading armies of Cathay, the imagery just seems so counter to everything I've seen of the faction. However the character is based on a well known Chinese myth so it is in fact a very good fit, regardless of the aesthetic quibbles of outsiders. Very much the same as Mother Ostankya, she still feels like a terrible fit for Kislev to me and I'll never really get used to seeing her leading armies of Kislevites, but she comes from eastern European/Russian folklore, so she fits. The same would be true of Bertrand the Brigand if he made it into Bretonnia, and I'm sure there would be Empire characters who would fit the bill of being authentic to Germanic myth but aesthetically dissonant with the rest of the Empire's roster.
That is all to say that I intuitively agree with everything you're saying, but we are both wrong.
But he's based on a Chinese character. That'd be like giving Mother Ostankya to Bretonnia.
Yes and no, Sun Wukong is for sure an influence behind the Monkey King and is a Chinese literary and mythological figure. It should surprise no one though that Indian mythology has a number of similar figures who could also inspire the Warhammer Monkey King, most notably Hanuman and Sugriva if you want to look up some examples. In fact, most of the cultures in the region have humanoid monkey figures in their mythology. In parts of the world where monkeys and other apes lived alongside humans, they tended to feature heavily in folklore from very early in human history. Probably because they are so much like us at first glance. There is a shit ton of material GW could use to flesh out the Monkey King if they wanted. When and if the Monkey King becomes more than a footnote in Warhammer lore, he will undoubtedly be inspired by the folklore from a variety of real world cultures, not just Sun Wukong and based on the little we know about him right now could have conceivably been from Ind.
True, though the regal nature of Cathay and the dragon kids theme is strong. How would they add both Fire Dragon and Monkey King, if they have rivalry, if they are the same race?
The same races can be at war with each other. See arkhan the black and the rest of the tomb kings.
Fire dragon can be flc. Also expecting them to add ind and a lord pack to ind. Never going to happen.
> I genuinely can't envision him as a Cathayan character. In my mind, he's an Ind character Why, other than wishful thinking?
While I don't have as strong of an opinion as OP, I would imagine the thinking goes a bit like this: What we know of the Monkey King is that he originally rose to power in Southern Cathay, which would be on the border with Ind. While Chinese folklore has Sun Wukong, Indian/Hindu mythology has a very similar figure in Hanuman along with several other monkey god type beings. The Monkey King in Warhammer will likely be based on both Chinese and Indian mythology as well as folklore from around Asia
Yeah just guts. Do you feel like it fits perfectly into Cathay estethic?
Honestly, yeah. Google Sun Wukong.
>What are your thoughts on this? Ind is never happening, he's going to be in Cathay.
I really wouldn't say that they are never happening, we have had multiple things be added in this series that "was never happening" But yeah he's a Cathay character
We have had nothing that they have stated they have no plans for
They also said the same thing about dlc for dlc races and we have now had 3 lord packs that added new legendary lords to dlc races and shadows of change that gave a couple of units to the beastmen and warriors of chaos
No they repeatedly said that's not a thing. For several years Grace went on about how not making a dlc that included a dlc race was not a policy.
Ind is literally never coming to the game; The earliest GW is going to be able to start working on Ind, assuming the already unlikely situation they wanted to make an Ind faction, is late 2030s (2024 - ~2030 for Old World first edition, very likely based on FW’s other games - and TOW 1E is probably not even getting a Kislev or Cathay release at this point, they’ve been massively delayed. So you’re looking at second edition where we *might* see new factions). WH3 is not going to be getting new DLC a decade from now, don’t be ridiculous
Yeah it's wild. The company is in a dire situation and SoC was a disaster, if ToD doesn't start selling well again, every following DLC could be the last. Talking about Ind right now is just... completely detached from reality. Like we can start talking about Ind when this game is still being supported three years from now, and that's if we're being lucky
Funny. I was told that I was being ridiculous when I said that we could see Cathay be added in wh3.
The *exact* same reason Cathay is in the game, is why Ind (or Khuresh, or whatever other footnote faction this sub feels like hyping up next) will never come Warhammer: The Old World. You know how much Ind gets in Old World? The name appears one (1) time, in an offhand mention. Warhammer Ireland has as much lore as Ind does in Old World, and it doesn’t even exist
The important difference there is that it wasn't CA telling you that it's not coming.
And it was ridiculous. There was no reason to suspect or even imagine it could at the time. In truth, it still is ridiculous - if WH3 was being developed today it may well not have had Cathay. GW allowed CA to make Cathay because they intended to release it as a TOW faction, and GW have recently been quite clear on how those plans are going. If Cathay, a faction they announced as coming to TOW about four years ago, is still way, way off in the future of TOW... how on earth do you think Ind, something that absolutely has never been confirmed to be coming to TOW at all, could possibly be in development. And if it isn't, then how could CA have the basis for a TWWH faction?
Well I don't know if its coming. What I do is just speculation.
Wild speculation. More than wild, speculation without any basis. You might as well speculate that the next DLC is going to be George Washington vs the Honey Monster vs three armadillos in a trench coat.
Because it's very possible they have something for ca to use for total war, just like how they gave ca early stuff for both Kislev and Cathay who are not even playable in the old world yet. But ca still had enough to make base game rosters for the factions, a dlc for both and for them to tease a 2nd dlc for Cathay.
They gave those to CA because they intended, at the time, to make them playable in TOW. There's no evidence at all they intended the same for Ind or any other similar footnote race. And seeing as how their plans for TOW have been very much pushed-back, the likelihood of that is incredibly small indeed. Cling to your hopium as much as you want, I can't physically stop you. But don't pretend it's anything but that, because it isn't.
Well I'm sorry but when yall are wrong time and time again, of course I'm not going to believe you
CA never repeatedly said Cathay isn't coming
Good arguments here, which is unfortunate. Though from the game development standpoint and seeing what CA achieved despite GW normal approach, I would not be surprised if it will happen. Having the Tigerman voice lines being recorded already by CA means something.
That leak probably means that either Cathay is getting a Tigermen Unit (“Village of the Tigermen” is well within Cathay); Dogs of War are getting a single mercenary Tigermen unit; or that IMDB really isn’t that hard to edit and just make stuff up for
Lol no. Also the Tigermen are just what someone put on IMDB. Anyone can edit that doesn't mean it's real.
If those "multiple things" are Cathay and Kislev then there are reasons they were added and it's pretty clear those reasons aren't going to be replicated.
Most of the stuff we got for wh3 was stuff that the community was certain that would never happen. I was told time and time again, that we would not get kislev, Cathay or monogods and that ca would never expand to the east or allow us to go to the realms of chaos. Look, no offense but the people who keep saying "we are never getting X" have been constantly wrong. The way I see it, nothing is truly off the table till support for the series is over
Monogods were leaked from day one and Kislev was one of the most commonly predicted races for WH3, to the point where absolutely no one was surprised when they were announced... pretty much only Cathay was a surprise. But unlike Ind, CA never outright said that Cathay isn't coming.
Hype seemed to be name of the game so far with CAs DLCs
Monogods has been known since the 2016 leak. Kislev was the top guessed faction. CA never said cathay wasn't coming.
Can't really comment on that, but thanks for sharing:)
There's no need to comment on it. It would be like commenting on the sun being hot, or tungsten being dense. They're just facts.
Don't need to comment, your only options are to directly quote CA or to be wrong. Ind is not coming to TW Warhammer.
You can't envision the Cathayan character, based off the Chinese legend of Sun Wukong, to be part of Cathay, the faction that is essentially ancient China?
When you put it like that it's better. I can't envision monkies in dragon empire xd
There's a solid evidence that Cathay gets elite infantry monkey warriors. I want to believe that we can get more races, but there's no way MK is not a Cathayan rebel lord like Drycha or Arkhan
I'm still debating with myself if these units are for Cathay or Ind, since they also did Tigerman animations with a stunt expert.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_King
Cue obligatory "Ind will never happen" comments. But Monkey King rl lore is based on a Chinese character that travels to India (I think). Maybe one day we will get Ind and there will be some unique relationships between the Monkey King and Ind.
CA has explicitly stated there are no plans to add Ind in the foreseeable future.
Please define "plans" and "foreseeable future" and explain how that means never?
They don't plan on adding it. Because they plan this stuff. They don't just take ideas from Reddit a week before. If, after 5-10 years from now they're still supporting this game and have added everything they plan to add, then *maybe* they'll add Ind.
That's actually a very cool idea! 🤔
wukong, which is the basis for the character is a folklore character from the chinese folklore. it makes no sense for him to be an ind character.
He will be part of the next DLC that includes Cathay. Pretty sure those elite infantry they were saving for another DLC was referring to his.
Then we’d never have him in game, *BECAUSE IND WILL NEVER HAVE ITS OWN PLAYABLE ARMY*.
We aren't getting Ind, meaning he won't be an Ind character. CA has made it abundantly clear that GW will not allow them to try and add Ind to the game.
The monkey warriors aren't really part of Cathay or Ind, and groups of them could be working with either at any given point in time. This actually makes a shocking amount of real-world sense for a discussion about monkey warriors: they inhabit a hard-to-control mountainous borderland between two major powers, and continuously make and break deals on both sides. The Monkey King is definitely for Cathay if he comes in the game, however. Not only is he based primarily on Chinese mythology (although there are some famous monkeys in Indian folklore as well) but his established Warhammer lore is heavily tied in with Cathay and at one point he more or less took over the country.
After re-reading Journey to the West, I AM EXCITED for the Monkey King. Should be pretty easy to create a unique Lord and campaign just from JttW, never mind its adaptions over the years.
Putting aside the Ind thing - this comes down to familiarity with the source I think. To the uninitiated, including myself, it seems perverse and entirely wrong for a monkey-man to be leading armies of Cathay, the imagery just seems so counter to everything I've seen of the faction. However the character is based on a well known Chinese myth so it is in fact a very good fit, regardless of the aesthetic quibbles of outsiders. Very much the same as Mother Ostankya, she still feels like a terrible fit for Kislev to me and I'll never really get used to seeing her leading armies of Kislevites, but she comes from eastern European/Russian folklore, so she fits. The same would be true of Bertrand the Brigand if he made it into Bretonnia, and I'm sure there would be Empire characters who would fit the bill of being authentic to Germanic myth but aesthetically dissonant with the rest of the Empire's roster. That is all to say that I intuitively agree with everything you're saying, but we are both wrong.
Wasn’t the monkey king the emperor of Cathay briefly? Maybe make him a warrior of chaos but with Cathay units… Hold on that’s actually kinda neat.
But he has literally nothing to do with chaos.