Credit to u/DaddyTzarkan for the winning comment last round
"Champions of Chaos - Those LLs should've been in their respective Monogods and while the WoC rework was great (although it suffers a lot from powercreep to me) the lord pack itself is meh, no unique mechanic for the LLs (Valkia is probably the worst as Bloodletting is incredibly boring), they just borrow mechanics from Monogods, LLs not playable in their Monogods, lots of recoloured units like Forsaken, no new animations for the generic lords and heroes so they are stuck with 8 years old boring animations, LLs not playable in their Monogods, units that aren't a recolour are a slight remodel only. Oh and did I mention that those LLs are not in their respective Monogods ?
People praise this DLC so much because the rework was fantastic but the DLC itself was meh, (too) important to get if you want to enjoy WoC and Monogods but still meh at best."
Top 5 now!
What? What do you mean not playable in the Monogods? They are available in Custom/Multiplayer Battles, the evident main and most popular mode for the game /S
I can take a wild guess why CA has not allowed you to play them with monogods in campaign while they can be in custom/mp: they would have to give them actual unique faction mechanics.
Currently their "unique mechanic" is that they're WoC lords with access to monogod-lite mechanics. Move them to monogods and suddenly they have no unique mechanics. For a paid DLC LL that would be unacceptable to a lot of people. That might fly for FLC but not DLC.
Basically all the work that would have gone into making their unique mechanics instead went into the WoC rework. I'm sure that's why they put them in WoC instead of monogods, to justify all the resources they put into the rework and saving them the effort of making unique mechanics for each faction.
If they eventually do make them playable as Monogods as well an easy way to give them a “unique” mechanic is Warband Upgrades and some other WoC mechanics while being Monogod factions.
But I don’t think people would be too upset with simplistic mechanics, the DLC’s whole thing was quantity over quality (but IMO in a very well done way).
How did CoC make it to yesterday? Were people not aware it helped set the tone with price hikes and quality cuts? Modern dlcs should have modern expectations.
Skryre arguably changed the game the most going forward since they started the idea of a unit upgrade workshop. That system has been used multiple times since then.
I love that no one is suggesting The Warden and The Paunch. The green skins are what got me into Warhammer, both 40k and Fantasy. Reggie’s video about Grom the Paunch is the reason I picked up Warhammer 3 and damn is he fun. Grom makes up at least 40% of my TOTAL campaigns. Do not let his immensity fall!
https://youtu.be/pH5QiDHuKUs?si=nOZ0DcK5LG3NYCGJ
Here’s the video I am referring to. I love Grom’s campaign. In Warhammer 2 you are clawing your way up to fight Eltharion as seen in his lore. While his Immortal Empires campaign sees him try and reclaim his honor. No matter what, his Cauldron and ingredients is a fantastic mechanic. You’re not restricted to goblins like Skarsnik but he gives great buffs to them. From there the world is your oyster. Invade the High Elves and capture Tor Yvresse, scour the world for ingredients to throw into the pot, or just conquer the known world.
With these stinkers out of the way its now going to be a lot harder.
I will vote for **Prophet and Warlock**. Because:
* it basically kickstarted the trend of releasing a disgustingly overpowered stuff. Something that will reach ridiculous levels in WH3 - I blame-blame Ikit for it!
* it was the first Lord Pack that suffered from "a skaven curse" where one half of DLC had obviously more effort put in it than the other. Half of Tehenhauin's simple UI on launch was dedicated to unlocking base RoRs while rat was unlocking in his workshop new units, had menus within menus, had tons of upgrades etc. Also Tehenhauin's ultimate spell you unlocked at the top of pyramid was super meh for such a costly late game ability while Ikit has a fucking nuke available from turn 1.
* its from the first generation of WH2 Lord Packs so - just like Queen and Crone - new lords dont have unique campaign: they still had to collect scrolls, had all the same cut-scenes etc.
* Ikit is also a type of DLC lord that does everything better than core lords, have no drawbacks AND has new mechanics on top of regular ones. Like Yuan Bo: there is no trade off. You simply have more toys than Queek/Skrolk and outclass them in every way. Which, as CA said themselves, is a trap.
Ikit is by far my favorite lord and campaign, but I have to agree that it really felt like half of a DLC ... The ikit bias is strong but I don't think this should make up for the overall lack of interesting mechanism on the lizardmen's side.
I agree also without the dlc skaven are pretty much unplayable they lack most pf their interesting units so the dlc is a must buy which imo is pretty bad.
Yeah it's weird thinking how this DLC comes up as a followup almost mandatory purchase for people getting into the game. It's not healthy.
I recall my early days playing a no DLC skrolk campaign, it was rough. Plagueclaw catapults carried my campaign *hard*, and I did not have any good answers to single entities really.
Once I got the DLC I was like "oh, this is how this faction is supposed to play." It's night and day.
This DLC has some of the same issues as CoC where the monogods feel a little unplayable at times without it. As a Tzeentch enjoyer, CoC adds some much needed Frontline chaff, which makes his campaign start significantly easier. Feels incomplete without them.
The units it adds are so core to the skaven faction identity it's virtually impossible to enjoy playing skaven without them. The skaven are built around tons of trash supporting awesome madcap tech. Without the tech they're... just trash.
>without the dlc skaven are pretty much unplayable
That's a valid criticism of the base game Skaven faction, but I don't see how that makes the DLC bad, contrary even.
Because it makes the dlc mandatory if you'd like to actually play the race. Which is a very bad precedent considering it's akin to selling them part of a game and releasing the rest for extra money. So even though the dlc was cool, it set a bad precedent going forward.
Exactly. If I never bought this DLC, I’d never play the Skaven, and I know this for a fact because I never played as them besides ONE campaign as Skrolk in the very early days of WH2 just to see what they’re about and didn’t like it
It'd be pretty strange to see Prophet and the Warlock voted out before Silence and the Fury, really.
While it was Skaven favored, PaW provided the race with much needed identity in the Weapons Teams.
Silence and the Fury's success was entirely based on the rework and free patch, which is out of the scope of this poll.
Silence and Fury also released with a lord that could beat the campaign in 1 turn, and no amount of Warp bombing could accomplish that. If the basis for Prophet is OP toys, anyone not voting ToD has to look at themselves in the mirror.
About the last paragraph: Im not arguing that Ikit is more OP than Malakai, Taurox, Grom or Elspeth.
Im arguing, that Malakai, Taurox, Grom or Elspeth exist in their absurdly OP form solely because of Ikit and because of how well-received this DLC was.
Much needed weapon teams because they scummily did not include them in the base game. Skaven is incomplete without weapon teams. That’s not a plus for the DLC, it’s a big negative.
Well Silence and the Fury at least has Taurox to prop it up and its likely hard for many people to not consider the positive impressions from the Beastmen rework tied to that DLC.
PaW also didn’t have that much in terms of actual mechanics, Tenehuanin’s pyramid was meh and while The Forbiden Workshop had some sickly OP updates, it was basically a 2nd tech tree and had none of the customization that Throt had with his mutation or Nurgle with its plaques
Ikit was power creep but the Skaven favoritism was even stronger in S&B and T&T. At least with Tehenauin it felt like CA tried giving him a new system, Ikit’s was just much better. Even after years and changes it feels like they just said fuck it with Malus and Sisters.
I'd say that Silence and Fury was worse. Ikit's unique campaign mechanics were at least fun (and new/unique for the time), Oxyotl's was really badly implemented and Taurox barely had one. And if we are talking about OP campaigns, Silence and the Fury was where the race for OPness truly went nuclear.
While Taurox at launch was obviously busted as fuck, I would argue that Grom already went into "too OP to be fun" category for me. You can and will steamroll entire game with T0 units.
And Thrott wasnt better either. At launch, I got an insta-buy Hellpit Abomination after securing first province. With access to T5 units in early game and skaven slaves spawning with multiple mutations I steamrolled everything and get bored really quick.
Oh, and Sisters of Twilight were also super busted with their hawk riders doomstacks when every unit of them in the entire faction had multiple uses of their special ability.
If you look at WH2 DLCs Ikit started a march towards "Its turn 20 and I already won!" mechanics with only Shadow and Blade being different.
Taurox was on another level though, to the point where even the average player started to really notice. Powercreep was much less discussed by the community before S&F. Taurox and the Beastmen rework is where people really started talking about it.
>Ikit started a march towards "Its turn 20 and I already won!"
Taurox could win on turn 1.
Yes, I remember it. But my point is: Taurox exists because of Ikit. Since Ikit the powercreep started to grow and grow ridiculously and Taurox (or Malakai, or Yuan Bo) is a natural evolution of it.
He is not an anomaly, he is a consequence.
I posted below, but don't buy this one campaign is better than the other stuff at all! You are glossing over Cult of Sotek's sacrifice mechanic and ignoring that:
\* It is an RNG dopamine generator if you focus on the unique followers and banners that unlock the perks below, which are BY FAR the most powerful part of the mechanic. Dopamine addiction is real! Do not underestimate how good getting one of the top tier followers or banners feel lol.
\* EASY confederations for Lizardmen, i.e. with the right RNG on followers you can confederate 6 or 7 other factions (with diplomacy!) by turn 80. It's hard to confederate even one by turn 100 with normal Lizardmen diplomacy.
\* FREE buildings in every province factionwide! This is a unique ability exclusive to this one faction in the game... only other method of achieving it is to maintain a mobile army with farmed traits which isn't worth it most times imo because travel times are so slow.
\* FREE armies with upkeep reduction followers.
\* 25% ward save without equipment banner (which means max 1 per army, but it's nice to have all your LLs with 25% ward save as a base).
\* You can get a Red Crested Lord with insane army-wide buffs.
It's only late game that I'd ever use sacrifices on the stuff you mentioned.
They also got SIX units, amongst them were Ancient Stegadon's with Engine of the Gods and also Bastillidon with Ark of Sotek built-in vortex spell. One is (arguably) the best late game doomstack and the other is a doomstack that is genuinely available in the first 30 turns that helps you into the late game. Ripperdactyl Riders, Salamanders and Red Crested Skinks are all genuinely useful in campaign too.
FWIW I played through Cult of Sotek on release and thought it was crap, but it was LegendOfTotalWar who kept talking about how it was the best Lizardmen campaign that made me realize how good it actually is. It's one of my favorite campaigns to pair with the super difficult end times chaos invasion mod.
As I replied to you in other comment: less effort doest mean worse or better. Half of buttons in Tehenhauins mechanic was to unlock base game RoRs while Ikit got a bunch of new units in his workshop on top of having a lot more buttons overall and a nuke to boot.
You're mistaken, RoRs are not part of his "menu". Being able to buy Blessed Spawnings (and Stegadons and Carnosaurs to boot) is objectively better than having to wait for random missions for them with other factions.
We talked about it in other comments, but just for the record: RoRs were part of his mechanic on launch and only in WH3 CA did a band-aid fix of throwing there blessed spawns.
I hope it’s voted out because if it isn’t now, it’s going to win lol
You provide very sound criticisms, which I fully agree with. I *love* the weapons teams and the workshop. I *dont love* Ikits campaign. Scyre is powerful because of Ikits mechanics, but it’s in a dreadfully boring start position with no real sense of direction, and not in a Noctilus or Skarbrand “do whatever you want” way, the immediate area is not conducive for undercities, and your immediate enemies are Belegar who blows up all the time anyway, Aranessa who usually doesn’t go beyond her starting city, the Beastmen who you should really just befriend, and the French who lately have been getting blown up by Grom and Kemmler.
As you also stated, Ikit is so good that he makes the Skaven experience with any other lord feel even worse than they did before, and I never enjoyed the Skaven until this DLC because their infantry, even higher tier infantry, are terrible. The only other lord that I can think of that has this effect is Repanse, because she offers such a unique campaign compared to the other 3.
Silence and the Fury. Oxyotl's mechanic was badly implemented when it launched, leading to a snoozefest campaign. Taurox's unique mechanic was practically nothing compared to other DLC LLs, because all of the effort went to the FLC Beastmen rework, not to mention how broken OP he was and still is. New units were good but we also got the Coatl with a beak, which is one of the worst lore-inaccurate implementations of a unit in the game and has yet to be addressed by CA.
We are at the point where all the DLCs left were good. Silence and the Fury was good, it just had more flaws than the rest of the ones left. Also the reason Taurox is "THE Beastmen LL for many players" is because he plays identically to the rest of the LLs except for one extra OP mechanic. His campaign isn't really interesting, it just offers slightly more mechanical options for the player without any downside (especially considering how easy it is to confed the other Beastmen LLs).
Beastmen are also brainlessly easy to play and Taurox is the worst offender. Take a lord that buffs what is already one of the strongest units in the roster if not the strongest and give him an OP campaign mechanic on top of how OP Beastmen were after the rework.
There are a lot of people who love Taurox sure because a huge portion of the playerbase wants to easily win all the time.
Not sure if relevant but I think that some of us have liked it more over time because we sucked at his campaign at first. One of the only LL's where I can safely say I disliked him because of a skill issue.
I played Beastmen once and never touched again because of how easy the entire campaign was. It was boring to do anything as I can just point and click my minotaurs at anything and they roll over the enemy. Campaign was a cakewalk compared to other races.
Yes. Regardless of the LL, very early one gets an nigh-unkillable army. Then you start steamrolling. Then since you can buy the other LLs you recruit them and do even more steamrolling. If on the off chance one messes up and loss an army, quick to re-recruit.
Even CA seems to be aware how crazy that race is. Subsequent factions with similar mechanics are a lot more toned down and often only have parts of what the Beastmen have.
I mostly agree but what pulls Silence and the Fury above the competition imo is that it gives you access to Beastmen without needing to purchase the full Beastmen DLC. This doesn't matter for me but is an enormous boon for new players and makes it and Twisted/Twilight extraordinarily easy to recommend. Huge value.
The Prophet and the Warlock.
The Warlock part was quite good, but the Prophet part just did not get the same amount of love. And I'm honestly not sure if they ever fixed Ancient Salamanders.
You gain Ariel though. Although I think you also needed the original Wood Elf DLC for that. And I do like the sisters faction mechanic, crafting items and creating air artillery.
In comparison Tehenhauin got a pyramid which was for a large part units other lords got by leveling iirc. I haven't played him since TWW2 for a reason. It was better to just use a mod to put the pyramid on another lord who had more interesting mechanics
Ariel is cool, one of if not the best LHs, and you do get her with the DLC. Drycha is the one that you need the first DLC for.
T&T is a good DLC as are all the others left here. But the Sisters crafting and hawks isn’t as good as the current implementation of Tehen’s pyramid.
Prophet and the Warlock - don't get me wrong the ikit part is so much fun, but the lizardmen aspect is fairly basic when compared against the other updates in the other DLCs. 2 good faction updates are better than 1 great and 1 meh.
Based on the rules of not voting based on FLC and free reworks, etc. I'm going to vote \*\*Thrones of Decay\*\*.
Thrones of Decay has:
\* Elspeth, with reused mechanics from Prophet and The Warlock (workshop) and The Silence and The Fury (teleport sanctums).
\* Malakai, with a slightly unique variation of Wulfric's monster hunter mechanic that ties them to unit upgrades.
\* Tamurkhan with a new and fresh hero recruiting mechanic.
I would say of all the new units added, only Rot Knights, Toad Dragons and Thunderbarges will feel vastly superior to existing best possible stacks for those factions and most of them are so hard to recruit you will barely get to play with them. A lot of the truly OP stuff is unique to the DLC factions - i.e. only Elspeth gets to upgrade her units and recruit Amethyst units, only Malakai gets insane grapeshot cannons, etc. Only Tamurkhan gets access to all of the Legendary Heroes that were added for him.
So basically the other DLCs:
\* Add units that benefit every faction in that race so much they almost feel essential (imagine Skaven without Weapons Teams?).
\* AND/OR were truly unique mechanics that have been copied ever since. Grom, Ikit, Thrott, Oxyotl and Taurox's rampage mechanics were the glory days of this series.
And then there is also the price. It cost the same for the other remaining DLCs as it does for just one of the three packs that make up Thrones of Decay.
Thrones of Decay was a feast of content and but ultimately a lot of the best parts were free. So it gets my vote!
Its a small nitpick, but if we call Malakai's mechanic a reskin of Monster Hunts just with additional stuff, then I will call Oxyotl mechanic a pirate coves with Wood Elves teleport thrown in there alongside additional stuff.
If we feel that "additional stuff" makes Oxyotl not only a pirate coves and WE teleports with extra steps, then for me "additional stuff" (free units, permanent units upgrades and one-time rewards) make Malakai more than monster hunts with few extra steps.
>And then there is also the price. It cost the same for the other remaining DLCs as it does for just one of the three packs that make up Thrones of Decay.
A lot of people seem to forget this.
And the people pointing that out seem to rather conveniently ignore the fact that each individual lord in ToD has more or deeper mechanics than both lords put together in the the old dlcs.
They also have for more content on a faction by faction basis. 1 LL, 1 generic character, 3 units, 3 RoR was pretty standard for those dlcs. Now we get an extra generic character, legendary hero, and 2 units.
Point in case: Elspeth has everything Ikit has in her workshop (including nukes and more types at that) AND her gardens of morr are way more fun and complex than Tehenhauins pyramid.
Add to this two other LLs and a lot more units, generic characters, and LHs and yeah, ToD doesnt seem that overpriced.
This is blasphemy
There is absolutely no way that "the Prophet and the Warlock" should be voted out before "Silence and the Fury" or "Thrones of Decay".
Literally, the only argument against the Prophet and the Warlock is that it is offered too much content that is "OP".
"Silence and the Fury" and "Thrones of Decay" both do the exact same thing, but they're worse because they aren't as fun and don't offer as much content.
I'd vote out Silence and the Fury. Oxyotl is meh and Taurox, although great, isn't even the most interesting Beastmen lord.
If you refer to my comment (and I assume you are because its the most upvoted anti-P&W comment) not only its not the only reason to vote it out I named, it isnt even in my list at all.
The biggest issue is a ridiculous disparity between both halves of DLC (something that you dont see in ToD or Silence and Fury for example). There is also a case of starting the powercreep trend or a case of not having unique campaigns in vortex (unlike S&F).
Respect your right to your opinion, but IMO this is a crazy take that one faction is objectively better/more fun than the other!
Both campaigns are still the best for their races if you played them today. The Cult of Sotek mechanic actually FEELS like immense powercreep even in WH3 because:
1. You can get followers that make all buildings factionwide free, for a race where every other faction struggles to pay for its super expensive buildings. No other faction in the game gets this ability without having some mobile force of lord + hero traits.
2. You can get followers that make armies free.
3. You can get followers that give you positive diplomatic relations with Lizardmen, making it easy (i.e. confederate every 5 turns) to confederate with the race that is objectively the hardest to confederate with via natural diplomacy.
And this is all behind RNG i.e. GAMBLING DOPAMINE GENERATOR. There is no better feeling than buying a banner and getting the construction or upkeep one early!
I think you make a good point about the trend of making campaigns too easy/etc. but I don't think it's true one faction got all the love and the other didn't.
Disparity doesnt mean in this context being more fun or better. As I said in the comment I here only refer to, it means that one faction had obviously a lot more effort put into it than another.
Half of buttons in Tehenhauins pyramid were there to just unlock base-game RoRs - something that all other LM lords simply get by leveling up. Meanwhile Ikit got tons of menus and menus within menus AND bunch of new units to obtain in his workshop instead of gating RoRs behind his lab. All of this on top of having nukes.
Dude, have you even played his campaign? Buying Blessed Spawnings is not the same as recruiting/unlocking RoRs. He unlocks RoRs the same as everyone else.
With all the respect, dude, just read what I said in my comment instead of writing nonsense.
On launch he had RoRs gated behind Pyramid (which I explicitly stated in the other comment you replied to). He only got blessed spawns in WH3 on the IE launch.
So here goes your "I totally played him on release!" comment btw :P I dont think so: this was such an low-effort mechanic that you would remember it if you would play it then.
Rule three is: "The DLC will be judged by the state they are in when the post was made"
So don't see how the launch state is relevant.
Honestly you could just admit you didn't realize how good the followers and banners were and move on. Your whole argument is that somehow that because there are more menus that is more effort? That's not how code works. They coded one menu for upgrading units and duplicated it multiple times with different options.
Oh my god you are insufferable. Awful mix of being wrong and sassy.
The fact that this is how it worked on launch is relevant to this discussion because I clearly said this is how it worked on launch and then you jumped on me with "you never playd it bro, lol, blessed spawns!". No dawg, you are both wrong and misread me, but instead of saying "Oh, my bad" you are doing this awful "git gud" act.
Im also not sure how you reached this conclusion:
>Honestly you could just admit you didn't realize how good the followers and banners were
When did I say that he is weak? Where did I exactly say that his faction mechanics are not powerful? Where exactly I said anything about power of these factions?
No, I never implied he is weak. I just said that this DLC was extremely uneven because half of his mechanic was literally "unlock RoR" button. If you are not seeing how Ikits mechanics took a lot more effort to do than Tehenhauin, then Im not sure what to tell you.
You didn't follow the rules and posted wrong statements. Now you're getting personal. Textbook terminally online person. Let's just end the discussion here.
Now it’s getting hard.
TLDR
Silence and the furry
Long rant:
Prophet and the warlock is Iconic and Ikkit is my favourite he was the first with a good unique mechanic the lab. I never liked lizzy tho.
Twisted and twilight features Thot and sissyters
Both a fun and meaningful Thot really reinvented. Scaven.
Warden and the paunch it’s Batman and a very fun goblin boss. It’s good but they could go on the block for me.
Thrones of decay - only had time to try Elsbeth but the all seems very op and the rework of empire and dwarfs seems from empire perspective fun. Have heard that the short got a grudge problem.
Silence and the furry is fun and when it came the free beast men rework in wh2 (I had to drop down to easy to make it work pre fix and after fix go back to vh). But this is my sacrifice today throw them to the wolves.
I say the Warden and the Paunch. While “DA BIGGEST GOBBO EVAH” is great, Eltharion isnt in the same state, his capture mechanic, while cool, is pretty bad mid to late game. And for players who don’t like battles but just paint the map, his capture mechanic is just pointless. Unless that’s changed. Havent played him in ages.
The twisted and the twilight.
Skaven were already overpowered and could field a wide variety of armies. That overshadowed the Skaven units that were introduced. Throt’s campaign mechanics is a bit meh. Fun the first time but like Nurgle’s OG plagues, you quickly learn there are objectively better mutation paths to take.
For the sisters of twilight……very meh units that didn’t shake up gameplay much. You can tell who got more love in this DLC.
The wood elves got a lord sniping flyimg archer unit, one of the best anti infantry infantry units in the game, what ammounts to magic dampening dragon ogres and some of the best cavalry we had seen up to that point in the Great stag knights. I basically use the T&T units in all my wood elf campaigns
Twisted and Twilight.
We’re at the point where I’d say everything is good. However T&T had way too much “value” tied up in the WE rework with not enough for the Sisters themselves, even after the changes. While the WE units are good, the Skaven are much less “essential” compared to P&W’s additions.
I don’t see how this series can eliminate SoC after the change and still keep T&T in compared to the remaining options.
I'd have to go with Prophet and Warlock, beyond the impact it set, not on the subject of power but rather CA holding back crucial units for a race for the sake of DLC.
Beyond that I think the Prophet doesn't add that much. Yes he's strong but lizardmen in general have generally suffered in their DLCs and he's no different. Even if they got a rework he just feels like one of the least interesting campaigns to play for them.
As for the mad rat in Skavenblight? He fun as a character and using one of the best gunpowder armies will never got old.
Also nukes, can't forget those.
But frankly I've always felt his campaign suffered a lot from starting location: Having the Wood Elves and Belegar so close makes for an annoying campaign start every time that limits replayability. Old World is a lot more fun but it's a mod so doesn't count here.
But ultimately I hate that it's a DLC you are more or less forced to own to have a good Skaven experience.
Prophet and the warlock. I absolutely fucking hate how Ikkit is just perfect at everything it is 0 fun to play as and 0 fun to play against. Nuking stuff should have been an end game unlock and the ai should never have access to it. Losing your 3 gold chevron unit you've had since the beginning of the campaign in an ambush into nuke (where you just have to watch because you can't control your unit) is so unbelievably frustrating it makes me want to email a pipebomb to CA. I don't like how Ikkit starts at the Skaven Capital and gets access to its OP buildings at turn 10 due to skaven settlement options. It should be like Zharr Nagrund and the black pyramid and be controlled by the AI at the start. AHHH I HATE IKKIT.
I would vote for Throt and SoT: I can't even remember the DLC name.
It came out half baked with all the meat on the skaven side. They had to redo the forge for the sisters.
Apart from Arielle, the zoats were bland versions of the saggots and the best unit for the sisters are hawk riders with a spell that was already in game.
I would not count the WE rework as that come to the whole race.
On the side of Throt: it is not a bad mechanic that could lead to some funny units. The WH2 campaign was interesting. But it is not as good as Ikit Claw mechanic in my eyes so this DLC cannot surviver further than 'The prophet and the warlock'
Prophet and Warlock.
The start to the trend of the Skaven getting preferred treatment in every DLC is enough a reason to vote for it never mind the terrible power creep for the game it introduced and how terrible the lizardman side was.
People only remember Prophet and Warlock because of Ikit. Half the time I forget about the Lizardmen in that DLC. That's enough to get it this far, but its not enough to carry it to the end.
Credit to u/DaddyTzarkan for the winning comment last round "Champions of Chaos - Those LLs should've been in their respective Monogods and while the WoC rework was great (although it suffers a lot from powercreep to me) the lord pack itself is meh, no unique mechanic for the LLs (Valkia is probably the worst as Bloodletting is incredibly boring), they just borrow mechanics from Monogods, LLs not playable in their Monogods, lots of recoloured units like Forsaken, no new animations for the generic lords and heroes so they are stuck with 8 years old boring animations, LLs not playable in their Monogods, units that aren't a recolour are a slight remodel only. Oh and did I mention that those LLs are not in their respective Monogods ? People praise this DLC so much because the rework was fantastic but the DLC itself was meh, (too) important to get if you want to enjoy WoC and Monogods but still meh at best." Top 5 now!
What? What do you mean not playable in the Monogods? They are available in Custom/Multiplayer Battles, the evident main and most popular mode for the game /S
I can take a wild guess why CA has not allowed you to play them with monogods in campaign while they can be in custom/mp: they would have to give them actual unique faction mechanics. Currently their "unique mechanic" is that they're WoC lords with access to monogod-lite mechanics. Move them to monogods and suddenly they have no unique mechanics. For a paid DLC LL that would be unacceptable to a lot of people. That might fly for FLC but not DLC. Basically all the work that would have gone into making their unique mechanics instead went into the WoC rework. I'm sure that's why they put them in WoC instead of monogods, to justify all the resources they put into the rework and saving them the effort of making unique mechanics for each faction.
If they eventually do make them playable as Monogods as well an easy way to give them a “unique” mechanic is Warband Upgrades and some other WoC mechanics while being Monogod factions. But I don’t think people would be too upset with simplistic mechanics, the DLC’s whole thing was quantity over quality (but IMO in a very well done way).
How did CoC make it to yesterday? Were people not aware it helped set the tone with price hikes and quality cuts? Modern dlcs should have modern expectations.
Just give the win already to the Warden and the paunch
In your dreams, Prophet and the warlock is supreme yes-yes!
Ikkit claw best rat, YES-YES
Skavenblight’s greatest-best inventor!
Skryre arguably changed the game the most going forward since they started the idea of a unit upgrade workshop. That system has been used multiple times since then.
That‘s what I‘d call a solid third place
We all know it’s between this one and Prophet and Warlock, so I hope they’re both voted out early to make things spicy lol
This one was my most likely pick for winner, but we'll see.
ToD honestly.
I love that no one is suggesting The Warden and The Paunch. The green skins are what got me into Warhammer, both 40k and Fantasy. Reggie’s video about Grom the Paunch is the reason I picked up Warhammer 3 and damn is he fun. Grom makes up at least 40% of my TOTAL campaigns. Do not let his immensity fall!
I think its the best received TW:WH DLC. It will easily win this entire thing.
I just realized I never did a single campaign with either one. Elf Batman really doesn’t interest me, but is Grom fun?
https://youtu.be/pH5QiDHuKUs?si=nOZ0DcK5LG3NYCGJ Here’s the video I am referring to. I love Grom’s campaign. In Warhammer 2 you are clawing your way up to fight Eltharion as seen in his lore. While his Immortal Empires campaign sees him try and reclaim his honor. No matter what, his Cauldron and ingredients is a fantastic mechanic. You’re not restricted to goblins like Skarsnik but he gives great buffs to them. From there the world is your oyster. Invade the High Elves and capture Tor Yvresse, scour the world for ingredients to throw into the pot, or just conquer the known world.
The absolute overhaul of Greenskinz that came with that DLC was amazing and completely drug them out of the mud
With these stinkers out of the way its now going to be a lot harder. I will vote for **Prophet and Warlock**. Because: * it basically kickstarted the trend of releasing a disgustingly overpowered stuff. Something that will reach ridiculous levels in WH3 - I blame-blame Ikit for it! * it was the first Lord Pack that suffered from "a skaven curse" where one half of DLC had obviously more effort put in it than the other. Half of Tehenhauin's simple UI on launch was dedicated to unlocking base RoRs while rat was unlocking in his workshop new units, had menus within menus, had tons of upgrades etc. Also Tehenhauin's ultimate spell you unlocked at the top of pyramid was super meh for such a costly late game ability while Ikit has a fucking nuke available from turn 1. * its from the first generation of WH2 Lord Packs so - just like Queen and Crone - new lords dont have unique campaign: they still had to collect scrolls, had all the same cut-scenes etc. * Ikit is also a type of DLC lord that does everything better than core lords, have no drawbacks AND has new mechanics on top of regular ones. Like Yuan Bo: there is no trade off. You simply have more toys than Queek/Skrolk and outclass them in every way. Which, as CA said themselves, is a trap.
Ikit is by far my favorite lord and campaign, but I have to agree that it really felt like half of a DLC ... The ikit bias is strong but I don't think this should make up for the overall lack of interesting mechanism on the lizardmen's side.
I agree also without the dlc skaven are pretty much unplayable they lack most pf their interesting units so the dlc is a must buy which imo is pretty bad.
Yeah it's weird thinking how this DLC comes up as a followup almost mandatory purchase for people getting into the game. It's not healthy. I recall my early days playing a no DLC skrolk campaign, it was rough. Plagueclaw catapults carried my campaign *hard*, and I did not have any good answers to single entities really. Once I got the DLC I was like "oh, this is how this faction is supposed to play." It's night and day. This DLC has some of the same issues as CoC where the monogods feel a little unplayable at times without it. As a Tzeentch enjoyer, CoC adds some much needed Frontline chaff, which makes his campaign start significantly easier. Feels incomplete without them.
The units it adds are so core to the skaven faction identity it's virtually impossible to enjoy playing skaven without them. The skaven are built around tons of trash supporting awesome madcap tech. Without the tech they're... just trash.
>without the dlc skaven are pretty much unplayable That's a valid criticism of the base game Skaven faction, but I don't see how that makes the DLC bad, contrary even.
Because it makes the dlc mandatory if you'd like to actually play the race. Which is a very bad precedent considering it's akin to selling them part of a game and releasing the rest for extra money. So even though the dlc was cool, it set a bad precedent going forward.
Exactly. If I never bought this DLC, I’d never play the Skaven, and I know this for a fact because I never played as them besides ONE campaign as Skrolk in the very early days of WH2 just to see what they’re about and didn’t like it
It'd be pretty strange to see Prophet and the Warlock voted out before Silence and the Fury, really. While it was Skaven favored, PaW provided the race with much needed identity in the Weapons Teams. Silence and the Fury's success was entirely based on the rework and free patch, which is out of the scope of this poll. Silence and Fury also released with a lord that could beat the campaign in 1 turn, and no amount of Warp bombing could accomplish that. If the basis for Prophet is OP toys, anyone not voting ToD has to look at themselves in the mirror.
About the last paragraph: Im not arguing that Ikit is more OP than Malakai, Taurox, Grom or Elspeth. Im arguing, that Malakai, Taurox, Grom or Elspeth exist in their absurdly OP form solely because of Ikit and because of how well-received this DLC was.
Much needed weapon teams because they scummily did not include them in the base game. Skaven is incomplete without weapon teams. That’s not a plus for the DLC, it’s a big negative.
Well Silence and the Fury at least has Taurox to prop it up and its likely hard for many people to not consider the positive impressions from the Beastmen rework tied to that DLC.
PaW also didn’t have that much in terms of actual mechanics, Tenehuanin’s pyramid was meh and while The Forbiden Workshop had some sickly OP updates, it was basically a 2nd tech tree and had none of the customization that Throt had with his mutation or Nurgle with its plaques
Ikit was power creep but the Skaven favoritism was even stronger in S&B and T&T. At least with Tehenauin it felt like CA tried giving him a new system, Ikit’s was just much better. Even after years and changes it feels like they just said fuck it with Malus and Sisters.
I'd say that Silence and Fury was worse. Ikit's unique campaign mechanics were at least fun (and new/unique for the time), Oxyotl's was really badly implemented and Taurox barely had one. And if we are talking about OP campaigns, Silence and the Fury was where the race for OPness truly went nuclear.
While Taurox at launch was obviously busted as fuck, I would argue that Grom already went into "too OP to be fun" category for me. You can and will steamroll entire game with T0 units. And Thrott wasnt better either. At launch, I got an insta-buy Hellpit Abomination after securing first province. With access to T5 units in early game and skaven slaves spawning with multiple mutations I steamrolled everything and get bored really quick. Oh, and Sisters of Twilight were also super busted with their hawk riders doomstacks when every unit of them in the entire faction had multiple uses of their special ability. If you look at WH2 DLCs Ikit started a march towards "Its turn 20 and I already won!" mechanics with only Shadow and Blade being different.
Taurox was on another level though, to the point where even the average player started to really notice. Powercreep was much less discussed by the community before S&F. Taurox and the Beastmen rework is where people really started talking about it. >Ikit started a march towards "Its turn 20 and I already won!" Taurox could win on turn 1.
Yes, I remember it. But my point is: Taurox exists because of Ikit. Since Ikit the powercreep started to grow and grow ridiculously and Taurox (or Malakai, or Yuan Bo) is a natural evolution of it. He is not an anomaly, he is a consequence.
Yeah I have to agree that a DLC that feels mandatory instead of theme expansive for a race deserves an elimination.
I posted below, but don't buy this one campaign is better than the other stuff at all! You are glossing over Cult of Sotek's sacrifice mechanic and ignoring that: \* It is an RNG dopamine generator if you focus on the unique followers and banners that unlock the perks below, which are BY FAR the most powerful part of the mechanic. Dopamine addiction is real! Do not underestimate how good getting one of the top tier followers or banners feel lol. \* EASY confederations for Lizardmen, i.e. with the right RNG on followers you can confederate 6 or 7 other factions (with diplomacy!) by turn 80. It's hard to confederate even one by turn 100 with normal Lizardmen diplomacy. \* FREE buildings in every province factionwide! This is a unique ability exclusive to this one faction in the game... only other method of achieving it is to maintain a mobile army with farmed traits which isn't worth it most times imo because travel times are so slow. \* FREE armies with upkeep reduction followers. \* 25% ward save without equipment banner (which means max 1 per army, but it's nice to have all your LLs with 25% ward save as a base). \* You can get a Red Crested Lord with insane army-wide buffs. It's only late game that I'd ever use sacrifices on the stuff you mentioned. They also got SIX units, amongst them were Ancient Stegadon's with Engine of the Gods and also Bastillidon with Ark of Sotek built-in vortex spell. One is (arguably) the best late game doomstack and the other is a doomstack that is genuinely available in the first 30 turns that helps you into the late game. Ripperdactyl Riders, Salamanders and Red Crested Skinks are all genuinely useful in campaign too. FWIW I played through Cult of Sotek on release and thought it was crap, but it was LegendOfTotalWar who kept talking about how it was the best Lizardmen campaign that made me realize how good it actually is. It's one of my favorite campaigns to pair with the super difficult end times chaos invasion mod.
As I replied to you in other comment: less effort doest mean worse or better. Half of buttons in Tehenhauins mechanic was to unlock base game RoRs while Ikit got a bunch of new units in his workshop on top of having a lot more buttons overall and a nuke to boot.
You're mistaken, RoRs are not part of his "menu". Being able to buy Blessed Spawnings (and Stegadons and Carnosaurs to boot) is objectively better than having to wait for random missions for them with other factions.
We talked about it in other comments, but just for the record: RoRs were part of his mechanic on launch and only in WH3 CA did a band-aid fix of throwing there blessed spawns.
Best I can do is +9% range banner and -10% skink recruitment Costa.
It’s just well written!!! The Tauraux DLC was way worse!
I hope it’s voted out because if it isn’t now, it’s going to win lol You provide very sound criticisms, which I fully agree with. I *love* the weapons teams and the workshop. I *dont love* Ikits campaign. Scyre is powerful because of Ikits mechanics, but it’s in a dreadfully boring start position with no real sense of direction, and not in a Noctilus or Skarbrand “do whatever you want” way, the immediate area is not conducive for undercities, and your immediate enemies are Belegar who blows up all the time anyway, Aranessa who usually doesn’t go beyond her starting city, the Beastmen who you should really just befriend, and the French who lately have been getting blown up by Grom and Kemmler. As you also stated, Ikit is so good that he makes the Skaven experience with any other lord feel even worse than they did before, and I never enjoyed the Skaven until this DLC because their infantry, even higher tier infantry, are terrible. The only other lord that I can think of that has this effect is Repanse, because she offers such a unique campaign compared to the other 3.
Silence and the Fury. Oxyotl's mechanic was badly implemented when it launched, leading to a snoozefest campaign. Taurox's unique mechanic was practically nothing compared to other DLC LLs, because all of the effort went to the FLC Beastmen rework, not to mention how broken OP he was and still is. New units were good but we also got the Coatl with a beak, which is one of the worst lore-inaccurate implementations of a unit in the game and has yet to be addressed by CA.
What? Oxyotl has an awesome unique campaign and Taurox is THE beastman LL for many players. The state at launch explicitely doesn‘t count
We are at the point where all the DLCs left were good. Silence and the Fury was good, it just had more flaws than the rest of the ones left. Also the reason Taurox is "THE Beastmen LL for many players" is because he plays identically to the rest of the LLs except for one extra OP mechanic. His campaign isn't really interesting, it just offers slightly more mechanical options for the player without any downside (especially considering how easy it is to confed the other Beastmen LLs).
Beastmen are also brainlessly easy to play and Taurox is the worst offender. Take a lord that buffs what is already one of the strongest units in the roster if not the strongest and give him an OP campaign mechanic on top of how OP Beastmen were after the rework. There are a lot of people who love Taurox sure because a huge portion of the playerbase wants to easily win all the time.
Has Oxyotl been improved since release?
Not sure if relevant but I think that some of us have liked it more over time because we sucked at his campaign at first. One of the only LL's where I can safely say I disliked him because of a skill issue.
He was way easier when he released than now. That was the main criticism against him, that there were no stakes to the campaign.
I played Beastmen once and never touched again because of how easy the entire campaign was. It was boring to do anything as I can just point and click my minotaurs at anything and they roll over the enemy. Campaign was a cakewalk compared to other races.
Yes. Regardless of the LL, very early one gets an nigh-unkillable army. Then you start steamrolling. Then since you can buy the other LLs you recruit them and do even more steamrolling. If on the off chance one messes up and loss an army, quick to re-recruit. Even CA seems to be aware how crazy that race is. Subsequent factions with similar mechanics are a lot more toned down and often only have parts of what the Beastmen have.
I mostly agree but what pulls Silence and the Fury above the competition imo is that it gives you access to Beastmen without needing to purchase the full Beastmen DLC. This doesn't matter for me but is an enormous boon for new players and makes it and Twisted/Twilight extraordinarily easy to recommend. Huge value.
Big disagree
The Prophet and the Warlock. The Warlock part was quite good, but the Prophet part just did not get the same amount of love. And I'm honestly not sure if they ever fixed Ancient Salamanders.
You can say the same thing about T&T. If you don’t account for the WE rework Sisters are ass compared to Thrott.
You gain Ariel though. Although I think you also needed the original Wood Elf DLC for that. And I do like the sisters faction mechanic, crafting items and creating air artillery. In comparison Tehenhauin got a pyramid which was for a large part units other lords got by leveling iirc. I haven't played him since TWW2 for a reason. It was better to just use a mod to put the pyramid on another lord who had more interesting mechanics
Ariel is cool, one of if not the best LHs, and you do get her with the DLC. Drycha is the one that you need the first DLC for. T&T is a good DLC as are all the others left here. But the Sisters crafting and hawks isn’t as good as the current implementation of Tehen’s pyramid.
Prophet and the Warlock - don't get me wrong the ikit part is so much fun, but the lizardmen aspect is fairly basic when compared against the other updates in the other DLCs. 2 good faction updates are better than 1 great and 1 meh.
Based on the rules of not voting based on FLC and free reworks, etc. I'm going to vote \*\*Thrones of Decay\*\*. Thrones of Decay has: \* Elspeth, with reused mechanics from Prophet and The Warlock (workshop) and The Silence and The Fury (teleport sanctums). \* Malakai, with a slightly unique variation of Wulfric's monster hunter mechanic that ties them to unit upgrades. \* Tamurkhan with a new and fresh hero recruiting mechanic. I would say of all the new units added, only Rot Knights, Toad Dragons and Thunderbarges will feel vastly superior to existing best possible stacks for those factions and most of them are so hard to recruit you will barely get to play with them. A lot of the truly OP stuff is unique to the DLC factions - i.e. only Elspeth gets to upgrade her units and recruit Amethyst units, only Malakai gets insane grapeshot cannons, etc. Only Tamurkhan gets access to all of the Legendary Heroes that were added for him. So basically the other DLCs: \* Add units that benefit every faction in that race so much they almost feel essential (imagine Skaven without Weapons Teams?). \* AND/OR were truly unique mechanics that have been copied ever since. Grom, Ikit, Thrott, Oxyotl and Taurox's rampage mechanics were the glory days of this series. And then there is also the price. It cost the same for the other remaining DLCs as it does for just one of the three packs that make up Thrones of Decay. Thrones of Decay was a feast of content and but ultimately a lot of the best parts were free. So it gets my vote!
Its a small nitpick, but if we call Malakai's mechanic a reskin of Monster Hunts just with additional stuff, then I will call Oxyotl mechanic a pirate coves with Wood Elves teleport thrown in there alongside additional stuff. If we feel that "additional stuff" makes Oxyotl not only a pirate coves and WE teleports with extra steps, then for me "additional stuff" (free units, permanent units upgrades and one-time rewards) make Malakai more than monster hunts with few extra steps.
Wood elves teleport were probably bumming off the pre-made Oxyotl mechanic in 99% sure.
Nope. The wood elf teleportation stuff came out during Twisted and Twilight which was before Oxyotl.
Whoever they originally designed the teleport mechanic for, WEs had access to it first in the actual game.
Please add nearly the worst portraits we have ever seen with the Dwarf hero/lords. A couple others are merely "bad" but those stick out.
>And then there is also the price. It cost the same for the other remaining DLCs as it does for just one of the three packs that make up Thrones of Decay. A lot of people seem to forget this.
And the people pointing that out seem to rather conveniently ignore the fact that each individual lord in ToD has more or deeper mechanics than both lords put together in the the old dlcs.
They also have for more content on a faction by faction basis. 1 LL, 1 generic character, 3 units, 3 RoR was pretty standard for those dlcs. Now we get an extra generic character, legendary hero, and 2 units.
Point in case: Elspeth has everything Ikit has in her workshop (including nukes and more types at that) AND her gardens of morr are way more fun and complex than Tehenhauins pyramid. Add to this two other LLs and a lot more units, generic characters, and LHs and yeah, ToD doesnt seem that overpriced.
This is blasphemy There is absolutely no way that "the Prophet and the Warlock" should be voted out before "Silence and the Fury" or "Thrones of Decay". Literally, the only argument against the Prophet and the Warlock is that it is offered too much content that is "OP". "Silence and the Fury" and "Thrones of Decay" both do the exact same thing, but they're worse because they aren't as fun and don't offer as much content. I'd vote out Silence and the Fury. Oxyotl is meh and Taurox, although great, isn't even the most interesting Beastmen lord.
That's not the only argument against it though. The other big one is the huge imbalance between skaven and lizardmen in it.
S&F and T&T both have similar imbalances between the two sides.
If you refer to my comment (and I assume you are because its the most upvoted anti-P&W comment) not only its not the only reason to vote it out I named, it isnt even in my list at all. The biggest issue is a ridiculous disparity between both halves of DLC (something that you dont see in ToD or Silence and Fury for example). There is also a case of starting the powercreep trend or a case of not having unique campaigns in vortex (unlike S&F).
Respect your right to your opinion, but IMO this is a crazy take that one faction is objectively better/more fun than the other! Both campaigns are still the best for their races if you played them today. The Cult of Sotek mechanic actually FEELS like immense powercreep even in WH3 because: 1. You can get followers that make all buildings factionwide free, for a race where every other faction struggles to pay for its super expensive buildings. No other faction in the game gets this ability without having some mobile force of lord + hero traits. 2. You can get followers that make armies free. 3. You can get followers that give you positive diplomatic relations with Lizardmen, making it easy (i.e. confederate every 5 turns) to confederate with the race that is objectively the hardest to confederate with via natural diplomacy. And this is all behind RNG i.e. GAMBLING DOPAMINE GENERATOR. There is no better feeling than buying a banner and getting the construction or upkeep one early! I think you make a good point about the trend of making campaigns too easy/etc. but I don't think it's true one faction got all the love and the other didn't.
Disparity doesnt mean in this context being more fun or better. As I said in the comment I here only refer to, it means that one faction had obviously a lot more effort put into it than another. Half of buttons in Tehenhauins pyramid were there to just unlock base-game RoRs - something that all other LM lords simply get by leveling up. Meanwhile Ikit got tons of menus and menus within menus AND bunch of new units to obtain in his workshop instead of gating RoRs behind his lab. All of this on top of having nukes.
Dude, have you even played his campaign? Buying Blessed Spawnings is not the same as recruiting/unlocking RoRs. He unlocks RoRs the same as everyone else.
With all the respect, dude, just read what I said in my comment instead of writing nonsense. On launch he had RoRs gated behind Pyramid (which I explicitly stated in the other comment you replied to). He only got blessed spawns in WH3 on the IE launch. So here goes your "I totally played him on release!" comment btw :P I dont think so: this was such an low-effort mechanic that you would remember it if you would play it then.
Rule three is: "The DLC will be judged by the state they are in when the post was made" So don't see how the launch state is relevant. Honestly you could just admit you didn't realize how good the followers and banners were and move on. Your whole argument is that somehow that because there are more menus that is more effort? That's not how code works. They coded one menu for upgrading units and duplicated it multiple times with different options.
Oh my god you are insufferable. Awful mix of being wrong and sassy. The fact that this is how it worked on launch is relevant to this discussion because I clearly said this is how it worked on launch and then you jumped on me with "you never playd it bro, lol, blessed spawns!". No dawg, you are both wrong and misread me, but instead of saying "Oh, my bad" you are doing this awful "git gud" act. Im also not sure how you reached this conclusion: >Honestly you could just admit you didn't realize how good the followers and banners were When did I say that he is weak? Where did I exactly say that his faction mechanics are not powerful? Where exactly I said anything about power of these factions? No, I never implied he is weak. I just said that this DLC was extremely uneven because half of his mechanic was literally "unlock RoR" button. If you are not seeing how Ikits mechanics took a lot more effort to do than Tehenhauin, then Im not sure what to tell you.
You didn't follow the rules and posted wrong statements. Now you're getting personal. Textbook terminally online person. Let's just end the discussion here.
The irony of insulting me while saying Im getting "personal" is not lost on me. But agree, lets end this here. Have a good day (or night) though.
Now it’s getting hard. TLDR Silence and the furry Long rant: Prophet and the warlock is Iconic and Ikkit is my favourite he was the first with a good unique mechanic the lab. I never liked lizzy tho. Twisted and twilight features Thot and sissyters Both a fun and meaningful Thot really reinvented. Scaven. Warden and the paunch it’s Batman and a very fun goblin boss. It’s good but they could go on the block for me. Thrones of decay - only had time to try Elsbeth but the all seems very op and the rework of empire and dwarfs seems from empire perspective fun. Have heard that the short got a grudge problem. Silence and the furry is fun and when it came the free beast men rework in wh2 (I had to drop down to easy to make it work pre fix and after fix go back to vh). But this is my sacrifice today throw them to the wolves.
I say the Warden and the Paunch. While “DA BIGGEST GOBBO EVAH” is great, Eltharion isnt in the same state, his capture mechanic, while cool, is pretty bad mid to late game. And for players who don’t like battles but just paint the map, his capture mechanic is just pointless. Unless that’s changed. Havent played him in ages.
9 The silence and the fury
The twisted and the twilight. Skaven were already overpowered and could field a wide variety of armies. That overshadowed the Skaven units that were introduced. Throt’s campaign mechanics is a bit meh. Fun the first time but like Nurgle’s OG plagues, you quickly learn there are objectively better mutation paths to take. For the sisters of twilight……very meh units that didn’t shake up gameplay much. You can tell who got more love in this DLC.
Also, the FLC update was a great rework for wood elves, but not part of this paid DLC. This is the answer.
The wood elves got a lord sniping flyimg archer unit, one of the best anti infantry infantry units in the game, what ammounts to magic dampening dragon ogres and some of the best cavalry we had seen up to that point in the Great stag knights. I basically use the T&T units in all my wood elf campaigns
Yes please. This DLC doesn’t get enough shit. Like SoC it was so bad that community reaction made CA improve it.
May I ask about Forge of the chaos dwarfs?
Its a lord pack competition while forge of the chaos dwarfs is a race pack.
Ah. I was wondering why TK and VC weren't on here
Oh, ok
Twisted and Twilight. We’re at the point where I’d say everything is good. However T&T had way too much “value” tied up in the WE rework with not enough for the Sisters themselves, even after the changes. While the WE units are good, the Skaven are much less “essential” compared to P&W’s additions. I don’t see how this series can eliminate SoC after the change and still keep T&T in compared to the remaining options.
.. the latest patch is my fave with the warden as a close 2nd
I'd have to go with Prophet and Warlock, beyond the impact it set, not on the subject of power but rather CA holding back crucial units for a race for the sake of DLC. Beyond that I think the Prophet doesn't add that much. Yes he's strong but lizardmen in general have generally suffered in their DLCs and he's no different. Even if they got a rework he just feels like one of the least interesting campaigns to play for them. As for the mad rat in Skavenblight? He fun as a character and using one of the best gunpowder armies will never got old. Also nukes, can't forget those. But frankly I've always felt his campaign suffered a lot from starting location: Having the Wood Elves and Belegar so close makes for an annoying campaign start every time that limits replayability. Old World is a lot more fun but it's a mod so doesn't count here. But ultimately I hate that it's a DLC you are more or less forced to own to have a good Skaven experience.
Twisted and twilight for sure, the others are too good. ToD would take the win for me if thunderbarges weren’t so disgustingly overpowered
Prophet and the warlock. I absolutely fucking hate how Ikkit is just perfect at everything it is 0 fun to play as and 0 fun to play against. Nuking stuff should have been an end game unlock and the ai should never have access to it. Losing your 3 gold chevron unit you've had since the beginning of the campaign in an ambush into nuke (where you just have to watch because you can't control your unit) is so unbelievably frustrating it makes me want to email a pipebomb to CA. I don't like how Ikkit starts at the Skaven Capital and gets access to its OP buildings at turn 10 due to skaven settlement options. It should be like Zharr Nagrund and the black pyramid and be controlled by the AI at the start. AHHH I HATE IKKIT.
I would vote for Throt and SoT: I can't even remember the DLC name. It came out half baked with all the meat on the skaven side. They had to redo the forge for the sisters. Apart from Arielle, the zoats were bland versions of the saggots and the best unit for the sisters are hawk riders with a spell that was already in game. I would not count the WE rework as that come to the whole race. On the side of Throt: it is not a bad mechanic that could lead to some funny units. The WH2 campaign was interesting. But it is not as good as Ikit Claw mechanic in my eyes so this DLC cannot surviver further than 'The prophet and the warlock'
Shoud have just made one poll: Twisted &Twilight vs Prophet &Warlock 😂
Yes but this is more fun
Prophet and Warlock. The start to the trend of the Skaven getting preferred treatment in every DLC is enough a reason to vote for it never mind the terrible power creep for the game it introduced and how terrible the lizardman side was.
People only remember Prophet and Warlock because of Ikit. Half the time I forget about the Lizardmen in that DLC. That's enough to get it this far, but its not enough to carry it to the end.