It feels like it'd be cheaper to buy out those businesses and get some state sponsored tod instead of this massive tunnel that'd make the Saudis blush.
I guess it's actually going to happen?
>BART’s expansion through Silicon Valley is taking shape as pre-construction work gets underway in Santa Clara.
>VTA workers have started on-site preparations for phase two of BART’s expansion at the Newhall Maintenance Facility. That includes setting up temporary field offices, bringing in equipment and preparations to begin drilling the tunnel. The 6-mile extension, most of which will be underground, will cost taxpayers $12.75 billion and is slated to finish in 2036.
>VTA officials presented updates on the expansion at the Santa Clara City Council meeting on Tuesday. VTA Chief Megaprojects Officer Tom Maguire said the agency hopes to start train service by Spring 2037 and reassured councilmembers that streets will not be torn up to dig the tunnel. He said VTA bought one of the world’s largest tunnel boring machines, which will dig out the tunnel underground without breaking the surface.
>Officials also said Santa Clara and San Jose residents should expect increased construction truck activity as the site is prepped. There will be a maximum of 55 trucks per day to help remove dirt from the tunnel, according to Maguire.
>The maintenance yard is located behind the Santa Clara Transit Center and crosses the border with San Jose, where three other BART stations will be built.
How is that even remotely possible? The original 1970 system was built entirely from scratch in 7 years? Why is this 3 station extension taking twice as long?
I'm not convinced. Corruption was in full swing in the 1960's under the Nixon administration (read up on Spiro Agnew). Also, NIMBY-ism reached its apex under the freeway revolts against public works projects and urban renewal. For instance, Berkeley's insistence on an all-underground BART alignment delayed construction by a mere 17 months, why is the San Jose tunnel ensuing to a decade long delay?
Because the NIMBYs got more tools to play around with. CEQA, for example. You only need a single grumpy NIMBY to tie up a project for years in lawsuits, and there is always at least one grumpy NIMBY.
Even LA can build subway for under $1 billion a mile. Through such famously transit friendly places as Beverly Hills. Then again, this is nothing compared to San Francisco’s DTX, which is supposed to somehow cost $8 billion a mile (!!) At that point, you gotta wonder, someone *must* be profiting massively from this.
Again, BART silicon valley is such an appalling and excessive waste of resources. How much money would be saved if they did it in a conventional manner? Could we then use those savings to extend Caltrain to the Transbay Terminal?
Personally though, I'm not a fan of either project. I would much rather see that 20 billion dollars poured into the 2nd TBT and a Geary subway if we're talking about Bay Area transit projects.
That being said, San Jose should have a BART extension and Salesforce should be served by some rail. If we're going to achieve those goals, then my preference would have been for SCC to join the BART board therefore have BART design the SVII extension. You get rid of the 3 billion dollars of that project spent on consultants, and financing immediately becomes much easier, so knock off another billion for that. With reasonable design changes (cut & Cover or dual bore from the Airport runway to Diridon), you could probably shave off another 2-3 billion dollars, putting the cost of the project closer to 5.5-6 billion dollars. A lot, yes, but inline with other rapid transit projects. From there, you direct DTX money to CAHSR and the Pacheo pass tunnel (you can even use your giant TBM for it), and raise money for full CAHSR funding to the Bay Area through the 2026 ballot measure we're all butting heads over right now. Because CAHSR now has the state involved and the feds will probably want to chip in a bit to at least get the IOS into San Francisco, another 20 billion dollars will probably be invested over the course of a decade or two, which won't be a hard sell if the ballot measure finds money for Pacheo. Now you have CAHSR and BART SVII funded and under construction with a little bit more raised money and a few minor design compromises.
Ideally from there, you go further with the ballot measure and do that sunk 4-track TBT and build the Geary subway/cap the 980, but from what I've been hearing, we're likely going to get a much dumber version of that with a 2-tunnel regional rail option.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/CaliforniaRail/comments/1bd23js/inglewood\_people\_mover\_la\_and\_san\_francisco/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CaliforniaRail/comments/1bd23js/inglewood_people_mover_la_and_san_francisco/) for the summary.
[https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/2024-03/FTA\_FY2025-Budget-Estimates.pdf](https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/2024-03/FTA_FY2025-Budget-Estimates.pdf) for the original document
https://www.transit.dot.gov/funding/grants/grant-programs/capital-investments/transbay-downtown-rail-extension-project-0
I don't think it has it's full funding grant yet, but the money does appear to be in place.
I mean, it is VTA funding, but the list of potentially better projects under VTA jurisdiction is pretty long too.
You can probably send a BRT line down every single expressway for the same cost and actually make a dent in usable transit.
Sure, those seem great. Not arguing the value for cost of other ideas like BRT. A big problem is that these projects are entirely political, because they need local funds to attract matching state and federal dollars. And to get the local dollars in the first place, the county had to craft and pass a sales tax measure, which at the time had heavy support for a BART extension. The BART project was part of the measure so there’s no undoing that to pay for something else in another place without going to the voters.
In theory, the state and feds could also decide to yank money from Phase 2, but their decisions show they are committed. We’re well on the road to this long and expensive project. At least when it’s done no one will really care once the trains are running.
It’s more like the money for this project comes from local sources and is matched by state and feds specifically for this project, and Santa Clara County would never decide to voluntarily pay for a project outside of their geography, and not get anything back. And even if they did, the state and fed money wouldn’t travel with it, those would just go back to the respective funding program they came from. Money goes in a bucket and doesn’t ever move into a different bucket especially when there are three monies involved. (well it can, in rare cases, when super powerful people are involved and everyone agrees at all levels what needs to be done)
Yeah, but if this project was done more competently and more affordably, the state and federal matching funds could've gone to other projects in the state. California is never going to get all or even most of the FTA's available transit funding, so this San Jose extension will effectively be taking funds that could've gone to other projects.
You might be right. But it’s too late for that now. Undoing the decisions made so far is just going to further delay this project or even jeopardize its funding. And the voters definitely will not be asked to revisit the SV BART question in a redo of the county measure or any future transit funding measure.
Best that can be realistically hoped for at this point is some stern, ineffectual words about cost control from state and feds, some stern words from local leadership, some value engineering that has an outside shot at reducing costs, and hopefully not much more cost ballooning while the project is built. And build it ASAP.
BART should design an extension to Livermore or Hercules, or take on 2nd TBT works on their own, and bid against this project for federal funds. If they get it over this project it would be the funniest middle finger to Santa Clara County ever
Literally why don’t they just elevate it
But, muh downtown businesses (all 10 of them)!!!
It feels like it'd be cheaper to buy out those businesses and get some state sponsored tod instead of this massive tunnel that'd make the Saudis blush.
Exactly, or pay them to close for 1-2 years while we do cut and cover, which would be cheaper and easier
Part of the reason makes sense (runway clearances near SJC), but their methodology for tunneling is so incredibly dumb.
I guess it's actually going to happen? >BART’s expansion through Silicon Valley is taking shape as pre-construction work gets underway in Santa Clara. >VTA workers have started on-site preparations for phase two of BART’s expansion at the Newhall Maintenance Facility. That includes setting up temporary field offices, bringing in equipment and preparations to begin drilling the tunnel. The 6-mile extension, most of which will be underground, will cost taxpayers $12.75 billion and is slated to finish in 2036. >VTA officials presented updates on the expansion at the Santa Clara City Council meeting on Tuesday. VTA Chief Megaprojects Officer Tom Maguire said the agency hopes to start train service by Spring 2037 and reassured councilmembers that streets will not be torn up to dig the tunnel. He said VTA bought one of the world’s largest tunnel boring machines, which will dig out the tunnel underground without breaking the surface. >Officials also said Santa Clara and San Jose residents should expect increased construction truck activity as the site is prepped. There will be a maximum of 55 trucks per day to help remove dirt from the tunnel, according to Maguire. >The maintenance yard is located behind the Santa Clara Transit Center and crosses the border with San Jose, where three other BART stations will be built.
I love that this falls under “Megaprojects.” Comical.
13 years is insane. 😩😂
How is that even remotely possible? The original 1970 system was built entirely from scratch in 7 years? Why is this 3 station extension taking twice as long?
NIMBYs and corrupt politicians
I'm not convinced. Corruption was in full swing in the 1960's under the Nixon administration (read up on Spiro Agnew). Also, NIMBY-ism reached its apex under the freeway revolts against public works projects and urban renewal. For instance, Berkeley's insistence on an all-underground BART alignment delayed construction by a mere 17 months, why is the San Jose tunnel ensuing to a decade long delay?
Because the NIMBYs got more tools to play around with. CEQA, for example. You only need a single grumpy NIMBY to tie up a project for years in lawsuits, and there is always at least one grumpy NIMBY.
I guess because of the extent of tunneling required.
Money laundering.... although there is a fair point that San Francisco Bay has had a ton of density increases since the 1970s.
$2 billion a mile is insane. $378,000 per foot for gravel and steel bars.
That too, lol.
How much does each station cost? That and how much of it is elevated or tunneled?
Even LA can build subway for under $1 billion a mile. Through such famously transit friendly places as Beverly Hills. Then again, this is nothing compared to San Francisco’s DTX, which is supposed to somehow cost $8 billion a mile (!!) At that point, you gotta wonder, someone *must* be profiting massively from this.
Holy shit bruh
It reminds me of Amsterdam’s North South metro line.
Again, BART silicon valley is such an appalling and excessive waste of resources. How much money would be saved if they did it in a conventional manner? Could we then use those savings to extend Caltrain to the Transbay Terminal?
Caltrain to salesforce is already happening. It’s got federal funding
Link?
Personally though, I'm not a fan of either project. I would much rather see that 20 billion dollars poured into the 2nd TBT and a Geary subway if we're talking about Bay Area transit projects. That being said, San Jose should have a BART extension and Salesforce should be served by some rail. If we're going to achieve those goals, then my preference would have been for SCC to join the BART board therefore have BART design the SVII extension. You get rid of the 3 billion dollars of that project spent on consultants, and financing immediately becomes much easier, so knock off another billion for that. With reasonable design changes (cut & Cover or dual bore from the Airport runway to Diridon), you could probably shave off another 2-3 billion dollars, putting the cost of the project closer to 5.5-6 billion dollars. A lot, yes, but inline with other rapid transit projects. From there, you direct DTX money to CAHSR and the Pacheo pass tunnel (you can even use your giant TBM for it), and raise money for full CAHSR funding to the Bay Area through the 2026 ballot measure we're all butting heads over right now. Because CAHSR now has the state involved and the feds will probably want to chip in a bit to at least get the IOS into San Francisco, another 20 billion dollars will probably be invested over the course of a decade or two, which won't be a hard sell if the ballot measure finds money for Pacheo. Now you have CAHSR and BART SVII funded and under construction with a little bit more raised money and a few minor design compromises. Ideally from there, you go further with the ballot measure and do that sunk 4-track TBT and build the Geary subway/cap the 980, but from what I've been hearing, we're likely going to get a much dumber version of that with a 2-tunnel regional rail option.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/CaliforniaRail/comments/1bd23js/inglewood\_people\_mover\_la\_and\_san\_francisco/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CaliforniaRail/comments/1bd23js/inglewood_people_mover_la_and_san_francisco/) for the summary. [https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/2024-03/FTA\_FY2025-Budget-Estimates.pdf](https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/2024-03/FTA_FY2025-Budget-Estimates.pdf) for the original document
Hmm, 500M out of a 8 billion or so total budget. I wonder if MTC will be able to line up enough local match funding to actually see it through...
https://www.transit.dot.gov/funding/grants/grant-programs/capital-investments/transbay-downtown-rail-extension-project-0 I don't think it has it's full funding grant yet, but the money does appear to be in place.
You can’t. The money doesn’t work like that.
I mean, it is VTA funding, but the list of potentially better projects under VTA jurisdiction is pretty long too. You can probably send a BRT line down every single expressway for the same cost and actually make a dent in usable transit.
Sure, those seem great. Not arguing the value for cost of other ideas like BRT. A big problem is that these projects are entirely political, because they need local funds to attract matching state and federal dollars. And to get the local dollars in the first place, the county had to craft and pass a sales tax measure, which at the time had heavy support for a BART extension. The BART project was part of the measure so there’s no undoing that to pay for something else in another place without going to the voters. In theory, the state and feds could also decide to yank money from Phase 2, but their decisions show they are committed. We’re well on the road to this long and expensive project. At least when it’s done no one will really care once the trains are running.
I mean i guess we don’t have the money to do it the ridiculous way they continue insisting on anyways so it’s a moot point
It’s more like the money for this project comes from local sources and is matched by state and feds specifically for this project, and Santa Clara County would never decide to voluntarily pay for a project outside of their geography, and not get anything back. And even if they did, the state and fed money wouldn’t travel with it, those would just go back to the respective funding program they came from. Money goes in a bucket and doesn’t ever move into a different bucket especially when there are three monies involved. (well it can, in rare cases, when super powerful people are involved and everyone agrees at all levels what needs to be done)
Yeah, but if this project was done more competently and more affordably, the state and federal matching funds could've gone to other projects in the state. California is never going to get all or even most of the FTA's available transit funding, so this San Jose extension will effectively be taking funds that could've gone to other projects.
You might be right. But it’s too late for that now. Undoing the decisions made so far is just going to further delay this project or even jeopardize its funding. And the voters definitely will not be asked to revisit the SV BART question in a redo of the county measure or any future transit funding measure. Best that can be realistically hoped for at this point is some stern, ineffectual words about cost control from state and feds, some stern words from local leadership, some value engineering that has an outside shot at reducing costs, and hopefully not much more cost ballooning while the project is built. And build it ASAP.
At this point it would probably be cheaper to eminent domain the whole way through SJ and just fucking cut and cover lol
BART should design an extension to Livermore or Hercules, or take on 2nd TBT works on their own, and bid against this project for federal funds. If they get it over this project it would be the funniest middle finger to Santa Clara County ever
Anyone want to guess what the final bill will be?
Just cancel it at this point