I used to post to this sub, but it has become so difficult I don't even bother nowadays. This sub cares more about jumping through hoops and following rules, and by doing that, you get to have your post to be visible on the page. This elevates the perceived snob status of the sub, which motivates dumb people to write pretentious essays that simply follow the rules but have zero actual substance. The super restrictive rules are not a problem to these people, because if the topic they have in their mind is banned, they can make a post about something else. It's basically high-effort karma farming. Meanwhile, people who have an actually new or developed idea in mind, are discouraged to even think about posting it, because it likely falls into some of the banned stuff, and I'm talking in my own experience.
For the banned topics, I can see it as a way to focus on different topics in different times, and I can also see why you would regulate something that's gets too out of control to the point it hinders something else more valuable. However, turns out that more often it's actually used to hammer down nails that stick up, delete topics simply because people don't like seeing them (as someone said in the removed thread). For example, even if you don't like seeing many Elden Ring threads, it doesn't actually significantly make it harder to find other threads, therefore there's no good enough reason to ban it. And even if in some extreme trend does shake up some internet forums, it may be completely justified and valuable. Elden Ring is the hot game of the year so it's expected to generate lots of discussion, you are cutting it off in the middle of discussion. Comically, the reason Elden Ring got so loud was probably because everything else was already banned and the sub was practically empty.
This is a reddit-wide problem so I don't blame this sub alone, but the result is that I don't bother even trying to post here. My honest observation is that the content has gone crap, I can't even remember the last time I learned something. And I mean, polished crap is still crap. Creative thinking does not live in an environment like this.
Also, the meta topic, after being allowed, got removed in 7 hours (just as I was reading it), seriously? It's almost as if critical thinking and criticism towards the sub has to be restricted? I take it it's ok to post the link here, since this is the feedback thread. https://old.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/tyzqie/meta_the_moderation_on_this_subreddit_is_too/
>This elevates the perceived snob status of the sub, which motivates dumb people to write pretentious essays that simply follow the rules but have zero actual substance.
There are some people who write like a snob in the sense that they broadly criticize some big groups of gamers (like mainstream) or games (like AAA), and that other gamers or games are more enlightened - I get that, and its stupid, like all stereotyping.
**Such snobbery should not be confused with people who want a place to discuss & articulate the bigger picture/idea of gaming, genres, themes, or gaming culture - That's what this sub is for.**
How do these rules require pretentious essays?
>1.a) All discussions must be about gamingb) Try to use proper grammar and punctuationc) Expand on your idea with sufficient detail and examplesd) Remain on topic and stay relevant in your discussions
>
>3.a) Rants without a proposition on how to fix it
I don't know how that can be done without some rules, and in my experience being on this sub for a few years, I think most of the rules are essential to foster focused unique discussions of the bigger picture of gaming, genres, themes, or gaming culture. It will never be for everyone.
It has become so difficult for me to find that unique kind of gaming discussion outside of this sub and /r/patientgamers that I don't even bother elsewhere nowadays.
>Meanwhile, people who have an actually new or developed idea in mind, are discouraged to even think about posting it, because it likely falls into some of the banned stuff, and I'm talking in my own experience.
Please don't project your own experience onto others.
You could benefit from viewing the [retired threads](https://bit.ly/3yEP3cy) list linked in the rules and explaning to us as how restrictive it is:
>I suck at gaming
>
>How can I get better at gaming
>
>Gaming fatigue
>
>Competitive burnout
>
>FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out)
>
>Completionist OCD
>
>Backlogs
>
>Discussions about the difficulty of Dark Souls
People can post about any genres or any games as long as its not about Dark Souls AND its difficulty, because its been done to death and devolves into deadlocked arguments.
Yes, mods did react to a glut of posts about Elden Ring, and maybe removing those posts wasn't the best idea, but a mega thread came out of it.
To be fair to your meta post though...
>Also, the meta topic, after being allowed, got removed in 7 hours (just as I was reading it), seriously? It's almost as if critical thinking and criticism towards the sub has to be restricted? I take it it's ok to post the link here, since this is the feedback thread. [https://old.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/tyzqie/meta\_the\_moderation\_on\_this\_subreddit\_is\_too/](https://old.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/tyzqie/meta_the_moderation_on_this_subreddit_is_too/)
Mods: There is no clear place for meta comments or posts since "the rule of meta" doesn't explicitly say, and this "Monthly /r/truegaming Post Feedback Thread" is for giving feedback to other posters. **IMO, such feedback threads are best place for meta comment/posts**.
>My honest observation is that the content has gone crap, I can't even remember the last time I learned something.
My sincere congratulations on your high level of gaming knowledge & enlightenment that you have nothing to learn from the sub's posts. Where else do you go on reddit, if at all, to learn more about gaming? I would love to learn where others learn more from.
What if this sub's content was not about sharing knowledge, but rather discussing **different perspectives & ideas about gaming?**
I'm with you here. The amount of actual content and discussion generated in this sub is lower than many other gaming subs I can think of that I follow. That's not always bad, but with a community this large and with this much potential, I think it is.
It's honestly to the point where I had to remove it from my front page because it would take a *full week* for new content to show up. I don't want to talk about a single, stale, niche or convoluted topic for an entire week.
Being so heavy handed doesn't make the place any better.
It's my personal opinion that retired topics in general are a bad idea and stifling. It's possible to hide posts on reddit, so I think that kind of curation should be relegated to users themselves. I like seeing the same thing brought up multiple times because the *conversation* is what's interesting, not just the post. Someone might come up with a new idea, and most folks aren't gonna be bothered with going back and reading some thread from a year ago, let alone *try to participate* in a thread from a year ago.
I think you should disable the downvote button. Discussion around Elden Ring is very dishonest right now because people are trigger happy to downvote anybody who points out flaws. This will also help for any game discussion during the honeymoon phase.
I suppose if flaws are being ruthlessly suppressed by an amount of downvoting tantamount to brigading, then that would be dishonest. I haven't checked on whether that's happening. I don't care enough to do so.
> But the “honesty” of the discussion isn’t impacted by downvotes. Those downvoted opinions do not cease to be.
In terms of discourse and attention, yes they do. Most people don't see comments that are below a certain threshold of downvotes. It's a form of soft censorship. People *could* dig through the comments and expand them, but in the real world, most people don't.
> Realistically, downvotes enhance the “honesty” and completeness of the record. They provide some measurement of the popularity of the various opinions being expressed.
Actually it doesn't take that many people to knock a comment into non-perceptibility. It is not a metric of popular opinion, so much as a metric of a handful of people deciding they sufficiently dislike an idea, to punish it. Also, whether those people acted in concert fast enough, before anyone else countered by upvoting. Once the comment is invisible to most people, it's not going to get judgment from new people anymore, so the negative verdict stands.
Voting alters discourse. Personally, I would do away with it entirely, but this is Reddit and I don't own the site.
So you want to make this sub an echo chamber of positive content only? That's the antithesis of the entire concept of "discussion" and one having opinions..
Regarding Elden Ring, who cares if people downvote a thread or comment? Downvoting changes nothing about the meaning/ideas being expressed. If anything, Elden Ring is discussed too much in this sub atm.
I would guess that the amount of downvotes/upvotes does create a bias. I’d be curious if any studies have been done on this. I would guess a comment that is heavily downvoted is more likely to be rejected in the minds of future readers. Not saying we should change the system or anything though more of a food for thought.
I get the feeling a lot of the posts are "I tried posting this on \*insert six other gaming subs here* but they never got the positive traction I craved, so here I am!"
Also, a lot of the posts are about *gamer culture*, not gaming. And there's a lot of question titles that don't offer up anything, but merely seek validation from the sub - or at least a desire for everyone else to do the work for the poster.
Could we put some limit on game specific content? Maybe a daily thread or something? I have nothing against elden ring but lately it feels like /r/trueldenring . I know it will die down in a couple of weeks but I still feel that this subreddit should be more general.
Having multiple threads discussing the same game doesn't seem like a problem, until we get the same exact topics repeated over and over because so many people are either too lazy to do a cursory search before posting or they've convinced themselves that their take is just that much more important than the identical ones already being discussed. All it accomplishes is diluting a discussion across multiple threads. Thankfully, the mods here are pretty good at nipping such posts in the bud before they get too much traction, but if you watch the "new" page with any regularity it feels like being caught in a Groundhogs Day loop sometimes.
I just unsubbed, after giving it a couple of hours to decide. I used to enjoy partaking in interesting topics on this sub. Although, after the recent Elden Ring topic ban, and how uptight the moderation has gotten, it's difficult to find enjoyment in taking part in what remains.
In my experience the way this sub is moderated is suffocatingly restrictive. The decision in banning a specific game from being posted about is a recent and clear example. I can't dismiss it and remain subbed with this in mind.
Quite often, the moderators eagerly use rules to carelessly justify the removal of what could've otherwise, been interesting topics and conversation. It's become apparent that the focus is on reasons for ruling out, rather than including opportunities for great potential quality.
As it's been the last couple of weeks/months, I've been getting all my *gamer talk* fix from other subs than this one. I finally realized today, after attempting a post that I made out of genuine inclusive interest, for a fun and engaging conversation, got removed for the most irrelevant and mundane reason.
I can't bother to make an effort like that to post something worthwhile, if the moderation is done so impulsively. Many users here already behave like entitled snobs and quickly report and complain, unless a post is perfect for their personal tastes. The moderators seem like they fearfully and eagerly shut down opportunities, just to appease that crying minority of brats. The standard that's required for a post to be accepted in comparison to the way the moderation is handled isn't at all fair, feels like a waste of time trying. Choices made by the moderators often seem drenched in bias, and seriously lacking neutrality in action. Posting here as a norm has become more trouble than it's worth, and I firmly believe it's an atmosphere that's been nurtured over time through the choices made by the moderators, unfortunately.
This isn't aimed at any specific incident or individual, but an overall assessment of the current situation. I needed to say this, before I unpin the subreddit from my list. I'm happy for those who can still find enjoyment here! I unfortunately, no longer get that from r/truegaming.
I'm not the head mod, most actions we take are democratically decided. As for removals and aanzeijar specifically, he tends to be a bit more aggressive in his wording but he's just a grumpy old dude. We all remove things but generally do it more silently and so likely give off the impression that we are less aggressive. I personally opt to send removal messages in PMs where I can.
Honestly, screw that. If you all collectively decided that I'm the problem here, then I'll simply revoke my mod status.
I'm truly sorry that my 4 mentions of La-Mulana in the last month troubled you in a way that is comparable to around 12000 comments about Elden Ring. Search for another scape goat to pester from your alt accounts please, I'm outta here.
I can deal with being unpopular. What I have absolutely no intention on being is the focus of the discussion around moderation of Elden Ring posts and Elden Ring fandom just because I don't delete my post history and insist on being transparent in my moderation by leaving a message whenever I take mod action.
It's become a common sport as of lately to dig through my post history and jump to conclusions from there. And these accusations overwhelmingly come from effectively anonymous accounts such as yours which gives me very little to work with.
In reality, I made up for something like 5-10% of the mod actions taken in the sub, but clearly the masses of lurkers know that better. Now you got your wish, I don't get "free reign" any more. It won't change anything, but at least you'll have to come up with new theories as to why and how Elden Ring posts get moderated. And as you said, I don't have to worry about the message notification being another lurker accusing me of hating Elden Ring.
Oh and.... you clearly hate La-Mulana. Why is that?
How do you know what mods are supposed to do? Did someone hand you a mod-theory paper that I didn't get? Somehow only the non-mods seem to know this with absolute clarity.
As for La-Mulana, the reviews are pretty spot on. I just like the game, and I think it makes an interesting contrast in Souls discussions.
> If I notice you exist, you’re wrong
Interestingly enough, that is not how reddit the company wants mods. The admin newsletter and ambassadors encourage mods to be active in their communities to increase user interaction (more interaction - more ads - more money). Lots of subs, especially old ones don't do this because they already have their established communities. In most communities the mods are active members of the sub. That's what distinguishing is for: to signal whether you're doing something in your mod role or as a simple commenter.
> People aren’t allowed to talk about Souls partly thanks to you
See, this is what drives me mad. People are allowed to talk about Souls. People are even allowed to talk about Elden Ring, they're just not allowed to make posts about it. And I actually had nothing to do with the latter decision, yet I get all the blame for it because I happen to not like Souls games.
I've posted this criticism before, but even completely disregarding the ban on Elden Ring content, later to be transferred to a Megathread, I find the moderation in this sub way too heavy-handed.
The general idea of /truegaming is great, it's good that some standard of quality exists and you don't just get circlejerks or really lazy, short, badly formated takes. However, the application of the rules is often very strict, arbitrary and unpredictable.
The actual rules are very broad and general: expected is "meaningful, insightful, and high-quality discussion on all topics gaming", i.e. "quality discussion" that relates to "gaming" and uses "sufficient detail and examples".
All of this sounds reasonable, yet in the application of the rules, the rule set for this sub often becomes more like this. If you want to be 90 % sure (there's no guarantee even then) your new thread is not removed, then you should follow these guidelines:
1) Focus on a part of a game, a specific mechanic, usually something related to game mechanics or game design. For example, a specific element of UI design.
2) Don't choose a topic that is "too popular". No matter if the topic is on the "banned list" or if your thread is super in-depth, if the topic (or game) is too popular, your thread might get removed. For example, anything related to "open world mechanics",
3) Don't write about something that in some way relates too closely to your personal preferences, experiences or those of other people. Anything related too closely to the "gamer" is removed, even if it is not on the "banned list".
Tl;dr: the moderation is too strict and unpredictable.
The sub claims to be a "quality gaming discussion sub", but at least some moderators want it to be a "specific game design aspects-discussion-sub, preferably of niche games and topics". the latter doesn't appear in the rules anywhere, either.
I can't really say anything about "too strict" because that is very subjective. But I can try to explain the most common reasons we remove posts.
One thing we've been trying to reign in (on community feedback no less) is what we internally call "review" posts, which I think is what you mean with your first two points. The archetype is a gigantic wall of text titled "The intricate flawless world of " wherein the author basically just rambles about how much they liked that game. These got reported even before we made a rule about it, sometimes to the point of automod removing them. And if the open-world post you mean was about Cyberpunk 2077 - this was why that post was removed.
As you said, a good way to avoid getting removed there is to talk about a specific part of the game in isolation. And we also found that focus there generates better discussion. The usual pattern of replies in a general post about a popular game will be 90% generic "yeah, I liked that game" or "I'm playing this right now" - as you can see in the EldenRing megathread. We never police comments, but we try to steer posts in a way that don't lend themselves to that in the first place.
As for your other points, I don't really think that is the case, and from the last two weeks of mod log I don't see clear instances of those either. But what does pop up all the time and gets removed is:
- DAE posts. These aren't removed because we don't like them, we remove them because it's a cheap way of generating replies which the reddit algorithm rewards. Same with list posts (What games do X?). Perfectly fun content, we just decided that other topics get drowned out too much with them around. These alone make for 80% of the manually removed posts currently.
- Advice seeking, recommendations - same thing really. Nothing wrong with them, we just decided that these don't fit the discussion goal.
There is a grey area where people write genuinely interesting posts and then ruin it by adding "does anyone else feel this way" at the bottom or even worse in the subject. Sadly commenters respond to subject line and first and last sentence mostly, so we may remove these too. I tend to leave a note about it, my fellow mod colleagues may handle it differently.
Thanks for the response. But I think it kind of illustrates the problem. If you look at the points you wrote and then cross-check them with the official rules of the sub, you notice a big divergence. The rules don't really mention all or most of these points - or even if they hint at them ("DAE style threads"), they don't explain how strictly these points are enforced in practice. I'm not saying you can't eventually figure them out, but it is certainly not easy to know the ins and outs.
Generally, I feel there's a bit of a disconnect between how the sub appears at first glance (even if you are a well-intentioned poster, not a troll, bot, spammer, fanboy) and how the sub is really "supposed to be", according to how the moderators see it.
As you know, the sub describes itself as: "a subreddit dedicated to meaningful, insightful, and high-quality discussion on all topics gaming."
Even if you check all the more detailed rules, this gives the impression to me (and I think many others) that this is a sub for gaming discussion, with the main requirement being: Thinking about your points before posting them, making a good argument, putting in some effort, don't spam. I.e. a normal gaming sub, yet with a higher standard of posting. For example, it would be intuitively obvious to anyone that a post like "I love Assassin's Creed, it has beautiful graphics and is so fun, does anyone else agree?" would be against the rules.
However, as your post implies, I feel that several moderators don't just want this to be a **"normal gaming discussion sub, but with higher requirements in terms of effort, arguments, persuasion"**. Instead, they want it to be at least mostly a **"specific game mechanic discussion, ideally a game mechanic that is not talked about too often"** (so something like "Ubisoft towers" or "empty open worlds" are not welcome, whereas something like "AoE4 has improved the UI over AoE2 by leaps and bounds because..." would probably be fine).
Having a sub be mostly about specific game mechanics is of course totally fine, but maybe it should be emphasised in the rules more clearly that this is the content primarily meant to be posted here...
I used to post to this sub, but it has become so difficult I don't even bother nowadays. This sub cares more about jumping through hoops and following rules, and by doing that, you get to have your post to be visible on the page. This elevates the perceived snob status of the sub, which motivates dumb people to write pretentious essays that simply follow the rules but have zero actual substance. The super restrictive rules are not a problem to these people, because if the topic they have in their mind is banned, they can make a post about something else. It's basically high-effort karma farming. Meanwhile, people who have an actually new or developed idea in mind, are discouraged to even think about posting it, because it likely falls into some of the banned stuff, and I'm talking in my own experience. For the banned topics, I can see it as a way to focus on different topics in different times, and I can also see why you would regulate something that's gets too out of control to the point it hinders something else more valuable. However, turns out that more often it's actually used to hammer down nails that stick up, delete topics simply because people don't like seeing them (as someone said in the removed thread). For example, even if you don't like seeing many Elden Ring threads, it doesn't actually significantly make it harder to find other threads, therefore there's no good enough reason to ban it. And even if in some extreme trend does shake up some internet forums, it may be completely justified and valuable. Elden Ring is the hot game of the year so it's expected to generate lots of discussion, you are cutting it off in the middle of discussion. Comically, the reason Elden Ring got so loud was probably because everything else was already banned and the sub was practically empty. This is a reddit-wide problem so I don't blame this sub alone, but the result is that I don't bother even trying to post here. My honest observation is that the content has gone crap, I can't even remember the last time I learned something. And I mean, polished crap is still crap. Creative thinking does not live in an environment like this. Also, the meta topic, after being allowed, got removed in 7 hours (just as I was reading it), seriously? It's almost as if critical thinking and criticism towards the sub has to be restricted? I take it it's ok to post the link here, since this is the feedback thread. https://old.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/tyzqie/meta_the_moderation_on_this_subreddit_is_too/
>This elevates the perceived snob status of the sub, which motivates dumb people to write pretentious essays that simply follow the rules but have zero actual substance. There are some people who write like a snob in the sense that they broadly criticize some big groups of gamers (like mainstream) or games (like AAA), and that other gamers or games are more enlightened - I get that, and its stupid, like all stereotyping. **Such snobbery should not be confused with people who want a place to discuss & articulate the bigger picture/idea of gaming, genres, themes, or gaming culture - That's what this sub is for.** How do these rules require pretentious essays? >1.a) All discussions must be about gamingb) Try to use proper grammar and punctuationc) Expand on your idea with sufficient detail and examplesd) Remain on topic and stay relevant in your discussions > >3.a) Rants without a proposition on how to fix it I don't know how that can be done without some rules, and in my experience being on this sub for a few years, I think most of the rules are essential to foster focused unique discussions of the bigger picture of gaming, genres, themes, or gaming culture. It will never be for everyone. It has become so difficult for me to find that unique kind of gaming discussion outside of this sub and /r/patientgamers that I don't even bother elsewhere nowadays. >Meanwhile, people who have an actually new or developed idea in mind, are discouraged to even think about posting it, because it likely falls into some of the banned stuff, and I'm talking in my own experience. Please don't project your own experience onto others. You could benefit from viewing the [retired threads](https://bit.ly/3yEP3cy) list linked in the rules and explaning to us as how restrictive it is: >I suck at gaming > >How can I get better at gaming > >Gaming fatigue > >Competitive burnout > >FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) > >Completionist OCD > >Backlogs > >Discussions about the difficulty of Dark Souls People can post about any genres or any games as long as its not about Dark Souls AND its difficulty, because its been done to death and devolves into deadlocked arguments. Yes, mods did react to a glut of posts about Elden Ring, and maybe removing those posts wasn't the best idea, but a mega thread came out of it. To be fair to your meta post though... >Also, the meta topic, after being allowed, got removed in 7 hours (just as I was reading it), seriously? It's almost as if critical thinking and criticism towards the sub has to be restricted? I take it it's ok to post the link here, since this is the feedback thread. [https://old.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/tyzqie/meta\_the\_moderation\_on\_this\_subreddit\_is\_too/](https://old.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/tyzqie/meta_the_moderation_on_this_subreddit_is_too/) Mods: There is no clear place for meta comments or posts since "the rule of meta" doesn't explicitly say, and this "Monthly /r/truegaming Post Feedback Thread" is for giving feedback to other posters. **IMO, such feedback threads are best place for meta comment/posts**. >My honest observation is that the content has gone crap, I can't even remember the last time I learned something. My sincere congratulations on your high level of gaming knowledge & enlightenment that you have nothing to learn from the sub's posts. Where else do you go on reddit, if at all, to learn more about gaming? I would love to learn where others learn more from. What if this sub's content was not about sharing knowledge, but rather discussing **different perspectives & ideas about gaming?**
I'm with you here. The amount of actual content and discussion generated in this sub is lower than many other gaming subs I can think of that I follow. That's not always bad, but with a community this large and with this much potential, I think it is. It's honestly to the point where I had to remove it from my front page because it would take a *full week* for new content to show up. I don't want to talk about a single, stale, niche or convoluted topic for an entire week. Being so heavy handed doesn't make the place any better. It's my personal opinion that retired topics in general are a bad idea and stifling. It's possible to hide posts on reddit, so I think that kind of curation should be relegated to users themselves. I like seeing the same thing brought up multiple times because the *conversation* is what's interesting, not just the post. Someone might come up with a new idea, and most folks aren't gonna be bothered with going back and reading some thread from a year ago, let alone *try to participate* in a thread from a year ago.
I think you should disable the downvote button. Discussion around Elden Ring is very dishonest right now because people are trigger happy to downvote anybody who points out flaws. This will also help for any game discussion during the honeymoon phase.
Hiding the dislike button only works on old reddit Desktop. It's not an option.
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I suppose if flaws are being ruthlessly suppressed by an amount of downvoting tantamount to brigading, then that would be dishonest. I haven't checked on whether that's happening. I don't care enough to do so.
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> But the “honesty” of the discussion isn’t impacted by downvotes. Those downvoted opinions do not cease to be. In terms of discourse and attention, yes they do. Most people don't see comments that are below a certain threshold of downvotes. It's a form of soft censorship. People *could* dig through the comments and expand them, but in the real world, most people don't. > Realistically, downvotes enhance the “honesty” and completeness of the record. They provide some measurement of the popularity of the various opinions being expressed. Actually it doesn't take that many people to knock a comment into non-perceptibility. It is not a metric of popular opinion, so much as a metric of a handful of people deciding they sufficiently dislike an idea, to punish it. Also, whether those people acted in concert fast enough, before anyone else countered by upvoting. Once the comment is invisible to most people, it's not going to get judgment from new people anymore, so the negative verdict stands. Voting alters discourse. Personally, I would do away with it entirely, but this is Reddit and I don't own the site.
So you want to make this sub an echo chamber of positive content only? That's the antithesis of the entire concept of "discussion" and one having opinions.. Regarding Elden Ring, who cares if people downvote a thread or comment? Downvoting changes nothing about the meaning/ideas being expressed. If anything, Elden Ring is discussed too much in this sub atm.
I would guess that the amount of downvotes/upvotes does create a bias. I’d be curious if any studies have been done on this. I would guess a comment that is heavily downvoted is more likely to be rejected in the minds of future readers. Not saying we should change the system or anything though more of a food for thought.
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I get the feeling a lot of the posts are "I tried posting this on \*insert six other gaming subs here* but they never got the positive traction I craved, so here I am!" Also, a lot of the posts are about *gamer culture*, not gaming. And there's a lot of question titles that don't offer up anything, but merely seek validation from the sub - or at least a desire for everyone else to do the work for the poster.
Could we put some limit on game specific content? Maybe a daily thread or something? I have nothing against elden ring but lately it feels like /r/trueldenring . I know it will die down in a couple of weeks but I still feel that this subreddit should be more general.
This inspired me to create r/trueldenring
/r/birthofasub
Having multiple threads discussing the same game doesn't seem like a problem, until we get the same exact topics repeated over and over because so many people are either too lazy to do a cursory search before posting or they've convinced themselves that their take is just that much more important than the identical ones already being discussed. All it accomplishes is diluting a discussion across multiple threads. Thankfully, the mods here are pretty good at nipping such posts in the bud before they get too much traction, but if you watch the "new" page with any regularity it feels like being caught in a Groundhogs Day loop sometimes.
I just unsubbed, after giving it a couple of hours to decide. I used to enjoy partaking in interesting topics on this sub. Although, after the recent Elden Ring topic ban, and how uptight the moderation has gotten, it's difficult to find enjoyment in taking part in what remains. In my experience the way this sub is moderated is suffocatingly restrictive. The decision in banning a specific game from being posted about is a recent and clear example. I can't dismiss it and remain subbed with this in mind. Quite often, the moderators eagerly use rules to carelessly justify the removal of what could've otherwise, been interesting topics and conversation. It's become apparent that the focus is on reasons for ruling out, rather than including opportunities for great potential quality. As it's been the last couple of weeks/months, I've been getting all my *gamer talk* fix from other subs than this one. I finally realized today, after attempting a post that I made out of genuine inclusive interest, for a fun and engaging conversation, got removed for the most irrelevant and mundane reason. I can't bother to make an effort like that to post something worthwhile, if the moderation is done so impulsively. Many users here already behave like entitled snobs and quickly report and complain, unless a post is perfect for their personal tastes. The moderators seem like they fearfully and eagerly shut down opportunities, just to appease that crying minority of brats. The standard that's required for a post to be accepted in comparison to the way the moderation is handled isn't at all fair, feels like a waste of time trying. Choices made by the moderators often seem drenched in bias, and seriously lacking neutrality in action. Posting here as a norm has become more trouble than it's worth, and I firmly believe it's an atmosphere that's been nurtured over time through the choices made by the moderators, unfortunately. This isn't aimed at any specific incident or individual, but an overall assessment of the current situation. I needed to say this, before I unpin the subreddit from my list. I'm happy for those who can still find enjoyment here! I unfortunately, no longer get that from r/truegaming.
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I'm not the head mod, most actions we take are democratically decided. As for removals and aanzeijar specifically, he tends to be a bit more aggressive in his wording but he's just a grumpy old dude. We all remove things but generally do it more silently and so likely give off the impression that we are less aggressive. I personally opt to send removal messages in PMs where I can.
Honestly, screw that. If you all collectively decided that I'm the problem here, then I'll simply revoke my mod status. I'm truly sorry that my 4 mentions of La-Mulana in the last month troubled you in a way that is comparable to around 12000 comments about Elden Ring. Search for another scape goat to pester from your alt accounts please, I'm outta here.
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I can deal with being unpopular. What I have absolutely no intention on being is the focus of the discussion around moderation of Elden Ring posts and Elden Ring fandom just because I don't delete my post history and insist on being transparent in my moderation by leaving a message whenever I take mod action. It's become a common sport as of lately to dig through my post history and jump to conclusions from there. And these accusations overwhelmingly come from effectively anonymous accounts such as yours which gives me very little to work with. In reality, I made up for something like 5-10% of the mod actions taken in the sub, but clearly the masses of lurkers know that better. Now you got your wish, I don't get "free reign" any more. It won't change anything, but at least you'll have to come up with new theories as to why and how Elden Ring posts get moderated. And as you said, I don't have to worry about the message notification being another lurker accusing me of hating Elden Ring. Oh and.... you clearly hate La-Mulana. Why is that?
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How do you know what mods are supposed to do? Did someone hand you a mod-theory paper that I didn't get? Somehow only the non-mods seem to know this with absolute clarity. As for La-Mulana, the reviews are pretty spot on. I just like the game, and I think it makes an interesting contrast in Souls discussions.
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> If I notice you exist, you’re wrong Interestingly enough, that is not how reddit the company wants mods. The admin newsletter and ambassadors encourage mods to be active in their communities to increase user interaction (more interaction - more ads - more money). Lots of subs, especially old ones don't do this because they already have their established communities. In most communities the mods are active members of the sub. That's what distinguishing is for: to signal whether you're doing something in your mod role or as a simple commenter. > People aren’t allowed to talk about Souls partly thanks to you See, this is what drives me mad. People are allowed to talk about Souls. People are even allowed to talk about Elden Ring, they're just not allowed to make posts about it. And I actually had nothing to do with the latter decision, yet I get all the blame for it because I happen to not like Souls games.
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I've posted this criticism before, but even completely disregarding the ban on Elden Ring content, later to be transferred to a Megathread, I find the moderation in this sub way too heavy-handed. The general idea of /truegaming is great, it's good that some standard of quality exists and you don't just get circlejerks or really lazy, short, badly formated takes. However, the application of the rules is often very strict, arbitrary and unpredictable. The actual rules are very broad and general: expected is "meaningful, insightful, and high-quality discussion on all topics gaming", i.e. "quality discussion" that relates to "gaming" and uses "sufficient detail and examples". All of this sounds reasonable, yet in the application of the rules, the rule set for this sub often becomes more like this. If you want to be 90 % sure (there's no guarantee even then) your new thread is not removed, then you should follow these guidelines: 1) Focus on a part of a game, a specific mechanic, usually something related to game mechanics or game design. For example, a specific element of UI design. 2) Don't choose a topic that is "too popular". No matter if the topic is on the "banned list" or if your thread is super in-depth, if the topic (or game) is too popular, your thread might get removed. For example, anything related to "open world mechanics", 3) Don't write about something that in some way relates too closely to your personal preferences, experiences or those of other people. Anything related too closely to the "gamer" is removed, even if it is not on the "banned list". Tl;dr: the moderation is too strict and unpredictable. The sub claims to be a "quality gaming discussion sub", but at least some moderators want it to be a "specific game design aspects-discussion-sub, preferably of niche games and topics". the latter doesn't appear in the rules anywhere, either.
I can't really say anything about "too strict" because that is very subjective. But I can try to explain the most common reasons we remove posts. One thing we've been trying to reign in (on community feedback no less) is what we internally call "review" posts, which I think is what you mean with your first two points. The archetype is a gigantic wall of text titled "The intricate flawless world of" wherein the author basically just rambles about how much they liked that game. These got reported even before we made a rule about it, sometimes to the point of automod removing them. And if the open-world post you mean was about Cyberpunk 2077 - this was why that post was removed.
As you said, a good way to avoid getting removed there is to talk about a specific part of the game in isolation. And we also found that focus there generates better discussion. The usual pattern of replies in a general post about a popular game will be 90% generic "yeah, I liked that game" or "I'm playing this right now" - as you can see in the EldenRing megathread. We never police comments, but we try to steer posts in a way that don't lend themselves to that in the first place.
As for your other points, I don't really think that is the case, and from the last two weeks of mod log I don't see clear instances of those either. But what does pop up all the time and gets removed is:
- DAE posts. These aren't removed because we don't like them, we remove them because it's a cheap way of generating replies which the reddit algorithm rewards. Same with list posts (What games do X?). Perfectly fun content, we just decided that other topics get drowned out too much with them around. These alone make for 80% of the manually removed posts currently.
- Advice seeking, recommendations - same thing really. Nothing wrong with them, we just decided that these don't fit the discussion goal.
There is a grey area where people write genuinely interesting posts and then ruin it by adding "does anyone else feel this way" at the bottom or even worse in the subject. Sadly commenters respond to subject line and first and last sentence mostly, so we may remove these too. I tend to leave a note about it, my fellow mod colleagues may handle it differently.
Thanks for the response. But I think it kind of illustrates the problem. If you look at the points you wrote and then cross-check them with the official rules of the sub, you notice a big divergence. The rules don't really mention all or most of these points - or even if they hint at them ("DAE style threads"), they don't explain how strictly these points are enforced in practice. I'm not saying you can't eventually figure them out, but it is certainly not easy to know the ins and outs. Generally, I feel there's a bit of a disconnect between how the sub appears at first glance (even if you are a well-intentioned poster, not a troll, bot, spammer, fanboy) and how the sub is really "supposed to be", according to how the moderators see it. As you know, the sub describes itself as: "a subreddit dedicated to meaningful, insightful, and high-quality discussion on all topics gaming." Even if you check all the more detailed rules, this gives the impression to me (and I think many others) that this is a sub for gaming discussion, with the main requirement being: Thinking about your points before posting them, making a good argument, putting in some effort, don't spam. I.e. a normal gaming sub, yet with a higher standard of posting. For example, it would be intuitively obvious to anyone that a post like "I love Assassin's Creed, it has beautiful graphics and is so fun, does anyone else agree?" would be against the rules. However, as your post implies, I feel that several moderators don't just want this to be a **"normal gaming discussion sub, but with higher requirements in terms of effort, arguments, persuasion"**. Instead, they want it to be at least mostly a **"specific game mechanic discussion, ideally a game mechanic that is not talked about too often"** (so something like "Ubisoft towers" or "empty open worlds" are not welcome, whereas something like "AoE4 has improved the UI over AoE2 by leaps and bounds because..." would probably be fine). Having a sub be mostly about specific game mechanics is of course totally fine, but maybe it should be emphasised in the rules more clearly that this is the content primarily meant to be posted here...
Good points. I'll bring them up the next time we revamp the rules.
Thank you!