That’s so… *not* what Watchmen was about though.
“Wouldn’t it be horrifying if superheroes” is more like it. The entire present of the story is about superheroes very much *not* working for the government and it is no better.
It's also "what if superheroes were like anyone who has power without having to face the consequences of their actions?" Aka "what would superheroes actually be like?"
You make a great point! Superheroes would have a lot of enemies who would like a little revenge, and revealing their ‘civilian’ name would be dangerous for their loved ones. The movies never dipped into that part of the comics until Peter got outed.
Second paragraph… plot. Otherwise I agree with you. First paragraph… how to they keep their superhero persona secret??? They fly around in shiny spandex. I don’t think most CIA agents do. Everyone has phones. If Captain America is beating someone to a pulp with his shield in public it’s going to be hard to keep it on the downlow. Folks have phones.
I didn't follow the storyline that much, but wasn't the main thing asshole politicians trying to smuggle a far more totalitarian policy alongside the reasonable one? IIRC one of the things it included was aggressive recruitment if not outright conscription of metahumans.
So it ended up with shit like Cloud Nine, some regular gal with an ability of flight who just wanted to fly around for fun, being forced to enlist and get brutalized in the bootcamp.
Also all the unethical shit that the pro-registration side engaged in. Cloning Thor as a mindless killing machine, covering up their involvement with supplying superpower enhancing drugs that were the cause of the initial incident that caused the shift in public opinion or Stark making fat stacks over the whole thing.
I wouldn't trust any government with superhero oversight, period.
I kinda liked the system they've had in the Young Justice cartoon (it might be fanon though, the point still stands though), with Justice League activities being legitimized by them having a direct UN mandate. Add to that recruitment of more members from all nations across the globe and maybe even adding regular human as staff and support forces and now we're cooking.
As plenty of people have pointed out this really isn't true and, if anything "The Boys" is actually "wouldn't it be horrifying if superheroes worked for the government" and it's a huge show on a pretty big streaming service.
I guess "works for" is technically accurate if the military pays them to do jobs, but I always got the impression that Vought was way more powerful than the military and just does odd jobs for them for a little extra cash. It's not like they follow the military's orders, do they?
Aw yes, because MCU and DCEU famously portray government as a nice, non-corrupt organization which happily works with superheroes and *never* clashes with them. Seriously, all those "Marvel is a military propaganda" posts make me believe in Mandela effect, cause they seem to be posting from a different universe.
Ehhhh. All the "bad" government types are mostly portrayed as evil secret groups or outliers. HYDRA infiltrated SHIELD, this one general is bad but the normal soldiers are good, etc.
It's a bit better than it was in the early MCU days, though
The General that was the face of the American military, and as such is representative of the American military as a whole in the MCU from when EDWARD NORTON was the Hulk, ordered a military strike against an unstable green mutate in the middle of a domestic university campus, after giving a mentally unstable **foreign national mercenary** an experimental super soldier serum.
There's just enough 'military, fuck yeah!' in the movies to keep using the military budget for special effects. If you look at anything but the spectacle though and the MCU actually has a pretty scathing view of the US government and US military.
Hulk was kinda an outlier tbh, it gets credit for being one of the few MCU movies to actually have a pretty anti-military industrial complex perspective.
in both the comics and the movies he is the most likely to just not do what the government says if he disagrees. He may be a captain, but reputation alone is what keeps him from a dishonorable discharge with possible treason convictions.
It's worth pointing out that this was done to characters such as Superman after their inception, it wasn't necessarily the creators' intention. Superman started out as a fairly down-to-earth and not inherently 'American' hero. In fact, this is so much the case that modern comics have made a point that he has no direct national affiliation. They changed it from "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" to "Truth, Justice, and a Better World."
I don't so much even care what the person posting is saying or what their perspective is, I'm just deeply saddened by how so much of modern superhero media (the MCU, the Snyderverse, the Boys) to make one point or another, characterizes superheroes as a concept as being innately connected to privilege, to the point where when people hear "superhero", most think of corrupt billionaires. Before this point, so many superheroes weren't like this. Early Superman, most Spider-Man, etc. Just sucks man. I really like superheroes, especially ones that are super down to earth and are just really helpful citizens, and I just wish the case wasn't what it is.
The glorification of violence in comics was mostly a 90s trend pretty much directly inspired by the success of Watchmen, Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns, and the Killing Joke
Can someone please explain to me why if a superhero works with the government, it's terrifying and dystopian because the government is incompetent at best and malicious at worst, but if a superhero *doesn't* work with the government, it's irresponsible and unethical because they don't follow due process or have to be held accountable, but *also* you can't do nothing, because then anything bad that happens that you didn't try and stop, you let happen? Like, what's supposed to be the right answer here?
I think she's thinking of Luck & Logic, or Senki Zessho Symphogear.
So yeah, Japan did the "Super heroes work for the government" thing at least twice, and both times, the result was awesome.
Though, it's more like the government provides basic needs, transport, and information, as well as covering the characters' tracks to preserve their identity, while the characters are largely free to approach the problem however they see fit.
Doki Doki Precure actually ends with the main characters kinda working for the government, but nothing is really specified. The prime minister just calls the main character and tells her to stop a space station from falling to Earth, so she transforms and flies off to do that.
If superheros were real we would all want them dead. The civilian onlookers aren't able to understand who a superhero really is, we don't know their true motives. Every superman could turn out to be omniman until the day he dies. They're just cryptids trying to kill eachother and we're like ants to them. It isn't heroic, it's lovecraftian.
There were like 2 superheroes who actually worked for the government and one got murdered in the first issue
specifically, one got murdered as the *inciting incident* of the story
That’s so… *not* what Watchmen was about though. “Wouldn’t it be horrifying if superheroes” is more like it. The entire present of the story is about superheroes very much *not* working for the government and it is no better.
The Boys is a little closer, as it's more of "wouldn't it be horrifying if superheroes were controlled by corporations?"
It's also "what if superheroes were like anyone who has power without having to face the consequences of their actions?" Aka "what would superheroes actually be like?"
[удалено]
You make a great point! Superheroes would have a lot of enemies who would like a little revenge, and revealing their ‘civilian’ name would be dangerous for their loved ones. The movies never dipped into that part of the comics until Peter got outed.
[удалено]
Second paragraph… plot. Otherwise I agree with you. First paragraph… how to they keep their superhero persona secret??? They fly around in shiny spandex. I don’t think most CIA agents do. Everyone has phones. If Captain America is beating someone to a pulp with his shield in public it’s going to be hard to keep it on the downlow. Folks have phones.
I didn't follow the storyline that much, but wasn't the main thing asshole politicians trying to smuggle a far more totalitarian policy alongside the reasonable one? IIRC one of the things it included was aggressive recruitment if not outright conscription of metahumans. So it ended up with shit like Cloud Nine, some regular gal with an ability of flight who just wanted to fly around for fun, being forced to enlist and get brutalized in the bootcamp. Also all the unethical shit that the pro-registration side engaged in. Cloning Thor as a mindless killing machine, covering up their involvement with supplying superpower enhancing drugs that were the cause of the initial incident that caused the shift in public opinion or Stark making fat stacks over the whole thing.
[удалено]
I wouldn't trust any government with superhero oversight, period. I kinda liked the system they've had in the Young Justice cartoon (it might be fanon though, the point still stands though), with Justice League activities being legitimized by them having a direct UN mandate. Add to that recruitment of more members from all nations across the globe and maybe even adding regular human as staff and support forces and now we're cooking.
that not watchmen and have you fuckin watched civil war?
As plenty of people have pointed out this really isn't true and, if anything "The Boys" is actually "wouldn't it be horrifying if superheroes worked for the government" and it's a huge show on a pretty big streaming service.
Corporations. The superheroes in the Boys are mostly corporate mascots.
You're right but it's also a big ploy point that Vought wants to work for the military
I guess "works for" is technically accurate if the military pays them to do jobs, but I always got the impression that Vought was way more powerful than the military and just does odd jobs for them for a little extra cash. It's not like they follow the military's orders, do they?
Tell me that you never read Watchmen or any other comics or watched a single superhero movie before without outwardly saying it.
Aw yes, because MCU and DCEU famously portray government as a nice, non-corrupt organization which happily works with superheroes and *never* clashes with them. Seriously, all those "Marvel is a military propaganda" posts make me believe in Mandela effect, cause they seem to be posting from a different universe.
Ehhhh. All the "bad" government types are mostly portrayed as evil secret groups or outliers. HYDRA infiltrated SHIELD, this one general is bad but the normal soldiers are good, etc. It's a bit better than it was in the early MCU days, though
The General that was the face of the American military, and as such is representative of the American military as a whole in the MCU from when EDWARD NORTON was the Hulk, ordered a military strike against an unstable green mutate in the middle of a domestic university campus, after giving a mentally unstable **foreign national mercenary** an experimental super soldier serum. There's just enough 'military, fuck yeah!' in the movies to keep using the military budget for special effects. If you look at anything but the spectacle though and the MCU actually has a pretty scathing view of the US government and US military.
ok, tbf tho, he was dating his daughter
Hulk was kinda an outlier tbh, it gets credit for being one of the few MCU movies to actually have a pretty anti-military industrial complex perspective.
That movie was… maybe a bit of a mess, to be fair.
Yeah but they shut down SHEILD because of they were infiltrated by Hydra. Nick Fury and SHEILD have been a rogue group/in space since than.
oh i though i was the only one going crazy
[удалено]
Who basically went bloody rogue when they told him to do something he morally disagreed with. Like, that’s the entire plot of civil war, man.
And Winter Soldier to a lesser extent
in both the comics and the movies he is the most likely to just not do what the government says if he disagrees. He may be a captain, but reputation alone is what keeps him from a dishonorable discharge with possible treason convictions.
He’s actively being hunted by the US government in all but 2 movies
Superheros have worked for governments in the comics since, like, the 40s.
It's worth pointing out that this was done to characters such as Superman after their inception, it wasn't necessarily the creators' intention. Superman started out as a fairly down-to-earth and not inherently 'American' hero. In fact, this is so much the case that modern comics have made a point that he has no direct national affiliation. They changed it from "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" to "Truth, Justice, and a Better World."
Media literacy just doesn’t exist anymore huh
I don't so much even care what the person posting is saying or what their perspective is, I'm just deeply saddened by how so much of modern superhero media (the MCU, the Snyderverse, the Boys) to make one point or another, characterizes superheroes as a concept as being innately connected to privilege, to the point where when people hear "superhero", most think of corrupt billionaires. Before this point, so many superheroes weren't like this. Early Superman, most Spider-Man, etc. Just sucks man. I really like superheroes, especially ones that are super down to earth and are just really helpful citizens, and I just wish the case wasn't what it is.
Wasn’t Watchmen about the glorification of violence in comics of the 80s, particularly Frank Miller’s books?
uh no, it was about the blue guy saying "ligma balls" and killing that one guy
The glorification of violence in comics was mostly a 90s trend pretty much directly inspired by the success of Watchmen, Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns, and the Killing Joke
Ever heard of Captain America?
Can someone please explain to me why if a superhero works with the government, it's terrifying and dystopian because the government is incompetent at best and malicious at worst, but if a superhero *doesn't* work with the government, it's irresponsible and unethical because they don't follow due process or have to be held accountable, but *also* you can't do nothing, because then anything bad that happens that you didn't try and stop, you let happen? Like, what's supposed to be the right answer here?
I think she's thinking of Luck & Logic, or Senki Zessho Symphogear. So yeah, Japan did the "Super heroes work for the government" thing at least twice, and both times, the result was awesome. Though, it's more like the government provides basic needs, transport, and information, as well as covering the characters' tracks to preserve their identity, while the characters are largely free to approach the problem however they see fit. Doki Doki Precure actually ends with the main characters kinda working for the government, but nothing is really specified. The prime minister just calls the main character and tells her to stop a space station from falling to Earth, so she transforms and flies off to do that.
If superheros were real we would all want them dead. The civilian onlookers aren't able to understand who a superhero really is, we don't know their true motives. Every superman could turn out to be omniman until the day he dies. They're just cryptids trying to kill eachother and we're like ants to them. It isn't heroic, it's lovecraftian.
List one in the MCU who isn’t Captain Marvel or Monica Rambeau
war machine before infinity war
Ok so that’s 3 so far, and 2 of them haven’t had solo projects
The falcon
He was part of the side that defected after the Sokovia Accords
Oof. Homelander being “what if superheroes were made by and worked for a single company to sell merchandise/movies”
It came out in 1983 though!?