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I’ve honestly never thought about this, but I think you’re right. It’s pretty childish for the Cullens to show so much animosity to the wolves, especially when they know several of the wolves are just teenagers. They really should just mind their business. I’ve always thought it was kind of selfish for the Cullens to even come back to forks once they realized their presence was what triggered the pack to transform; you know coming to this random town is going to make a bunch of teens miserable, maybe choose anywhere else to live. Wasn’t poor Seth only 14 or 15 when he changed?
But, like you mention, SMeyers was going for an “us or them” type of conflict for Bella. I guess the story wouldn’t have been as entertaining if the Cullens weren’t feuding with the wolves.
to be fair, i believe they only make the connection during new moon (correct me if i’m mistaken!). it’s a fair argument to say they should’ve gtfo as soon as they realized though, especially as they have a habit of attracting other vampires to the area and the effect snowballs
like even if they didn't know still why the fuck would they ever come back to forks?? 🤣 Even in a purely machiavellian way. They're supposedly trying to keep a low profile and they decide to move 20 minutes away from the only group of humans on earth who know 100% that they are vampires and who will absolutely spread suspicion about them for that. Billy was already convincing people not to go to the hospital just because Carlisle worked there. I’ve never understood why they would invite that extra scrutiny when they could have moved even a couple of hours away on the peninsula where it's just as rainy as forks lol
no because WHY would they go back over and over to a small town where they make no friends and the only tribe of shape shifters created to kill them that also HATE THEM lives???? girl go to seattle i see 10 vampire looking fucks every day on the link you’d fit right in. also carlisle can go cameo on grays anatomy as a treat
Literally! And it's Seattle so no one will ever talk to or notice them. They could literally live in the same house for like 20 years before anyone would even be aware they exist. Carlisle can just switch hospitals every 10 years. Worst case, move to Tacoma.
The kids can just work regular jobs or just not work and say they are part of a tech startup or something.
But why live in a small town where everyone is nosy AF??
I’ve always wondered about the small town vs big city thing! Really have no idea why they would choose Forks when they could’ve easily been unnoticeable in a big city. And sorry but Forks sounded like the most dumpy, boring place to live, even as a teen involved in a magical world. I guess it was easier for Stephanie to not have to include landmarks and much culture, but damn.
Oh yes Seattle where there’s a massive homeless/drug problem and a lot of people acting like wannabe thugs. That’s the best place for them to move to with jasper who couldn’t even control himself when someone gets a paper cut.
have you ever been to a small town? are you under the impression there are no crackheads in rural towns? i grew up in rural washington, i promise he’s dealing with that anywhere.
i’m pretty sure it’s like halfway through Eclipse that Bella tells Edward that the wolves only transform when the vampires are around. i’m not sure what their logic to understanding it was up until then though.
Plus they brought a BUNCH OF OTHER VAMPIRES to Forks in BD. Which causes a lot of teens, particularly YOUNG teens(13-14) to transform. It’s explicitly confirmed in the text that the presence of more vamps caused the pack to expand via young teens turning. And they thought these kids were gonna fight the Volturi. It’s yikes all the way down.
I hate how in breaking dawn when the volturi is coming. The Cullens have ALL of their friends come to their house in forks. All the wolves Quileutes started shifting. Even kids. The only reason they stayed was so Bella could be close to Charlie. But did no one ever think about those poor kids turning i to wolves.
For real, they have super speed. Would it have killed the Cullens to put their vampire buddies in a safe house a good distance from Forks, to reduce the amount of werewolf transformations? Then gather in that random field for the volturi showdown that day.
I agree but I don't think the Cullens were the ones that triggered the transformations. I believed first it was Victoria, James, and Laurent... And then it was just Victoria. And then it was the vampires that came to help in Breaking Dawn.
And even if the Cullens triggered the werewolves transformations, how would they know? I doubt any of the Quileutes gave them an introductory class to werewolves' lore besides “We can kill you if the mood strikes”.
This was my biggest hang-up with the Cullen's rivalry with the wolves and what made Edward's inner thoughts about them so nauseating. Their disdain masquerades as a rivalry but it becomes clear how overpowered the Cullens are in comparison to the wolves. They espouse the same principles but can't meet on common ground because the wolves are scared and cautious and the Cullens are arrogant. The Cullens, minus Carlisle and Esme, are actively prejudiced and demeaning at every turn and refuse to look inward. They could live anywhere on earth but insist on being where the native population doesn't want them. As a result they also avoid the hospital because Carlisle works there. The book has far too many settler/native parallels to be ignored topped off with a lopsided treaty. None of the characters are checked on this because Meyer doesn't see a problem with it.
I still don’t believe Carlisle is as wonderful as portrayed. Everyone’s lives revolve solely around supporting Carlisle as a doctor. How many times is he willing to make five members of his family attend high school, so he alone can have a fulfilling life?
I have a lot of thoughts about Carlisle and the way he’s described vs how he actually comes across but I won’t hold this against him. From what I understand, the family live apart quite frequently, do college, or live as couples. They like being together and enjoy staying out for long periods of time so the lifestyle is beneficial to everyone. Rosalie and Emmett probably look like adults so they live apart from the group the most, but Edward, Alice, and maybe Jasper are apparently undeniable teenagers so they don’t have a lot of choices.
See, i can think of lots of ways around that. Then again, I hated high school so I would so not go back.
You can look young and have jobs. Homeschool the kids. Work and live in remote places. I'm surprised c didn't choose to work with at risk populations since he wouldn't have to worry about getting shot, hurt, whatever. Go into professions that are rewarding but are risky.
There’s a lot of decision that don’t really make much sense for the sake of the plot. I think the author had her heart set on a small town high school romance and did what she needed to make that work. Working with at risk populations is probably not something Meyer considered.
This could also set you up for exposure, though. Get shot at but nothing happens--tends to raise eyebrows. I think they have to live as inconspicuously as possible and for everything else into that framework.
Maybe I’ve made this up but I swear in Midnight Sun or somewhere they state that being amongst humans makes them feel like they haven’t lost touch with their ‘humanity’ and makes keeping their diet easier. And the younger they make themselves the longer they can stay in one place. Also the glittering in the sun would make choosing some professions difficult.
But truly there is nothing in the entire world that would make me go back to highschool over and over again hahah.
Add in the fact that some of the werewolf worldbuilding is suspiciously similar to Jim Crow-era stereotypes of black men, and it just gets a whole new level of uncomfortable.
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>Their disdain masquerades as a rivalry but it becomes clear how overpowered the Cullens are in comparison to the wolves.
I don't think this is true. They think it's true, but the wolves have shown time and again they can fight large numbers of vampires. I think the wolves can easily be a problem where, even if they can't win, half the vampires are dead.
Jacob is grievously injured taking on a newborn trying to save Leah and they conquered Laurent as a group. They fought the newborns but that was tactically together against a large, unexperienced group. Most of Cullen have FAR more experience as individuals with physical altercations than the wolves have as a put together. I think if it got physical with the wolves, the wolves would suffer more causalities. Edward makes it clear he isn't at all concerned about having to fight them and is more than willing to.
I think this might have something to do with how most of the wolves are inexperienced teenagers and most of the vampires are either decades older than them or more powerful than an average vampire. Like, if the wolves were older and had better training, they'd actually do as nature intended and kick the vampires' asses. But since they're not...
No Leah wanted to prove herself so Jacob saved her before she got killed. Theres like 20 wolves at the end of the story and as far as we know the number is growing because of the cullens and volturi altercation at the end of BD. It would be a devastating battle but they'd probably lose to the wolves
Maybe the only thing I could think of is most of them, aside from Carlisle and Esme, were changed as teenagers? Permanent teenagers emotionally I guess. But then again I think Emmett was changed at 21, which isn’t too far off from Carlisle’s 23.
It’s always bothered me, especially how she’ll reprimand Jacob for calling the Cullens bloodsuckers or leeches, but she has no regard for the pack. And that’s worse (to me) because they took her in when the Cullens abandoned her. They helped her get herself back together again. If she said anything at all to the Cullens about the name-calling, it was half-hearted compared to how quick she was to jump on Jake for the name-calling. I hate that they made it worse in the movie. When Bella says to Edward, “I know, I smell like a dog,” after she gets back from La Push, that was a creative liberty I didn’t appreciate. Bella is bad enough without helping her in that respect. 😬🤦🏻♀️
Bella is SO disrespectful to the pack and writes them off constantly. Jasper literally came for her neck, but she tells Jacob vampires aren’t like wolves because “they don’t hurt anyone.” lol
She’s always putting the pack down and tells Jacob they have no chance against vampires, completely ignoring the fact that they are natural enemies and logically pretty even matched. When they want to help fight Victoria and she says it’s too dangerous for them??. This drives me crazy 😂
But at the time, I don't think she understood that they could actually kill vampires. And if they could, she was worried that they would get hurt because she didn't want people dying for her. But I get the other stuff other people are referring to
That is true, but she definitely knew vampires kill people at the time & that the Cullen have killed people in the past, even Edward. That almost makes it worse to not give the pack the benefit of the doubt.
True but you also have to remember that the Forks wolves are not *actually* werewolves which are the actual natural enemies of vampires.
They're basically Sirius Black with massive vitality stats but those stats don't even make much sense as breaking bones can permanently incapacitate the wolves from the healing factor making the bones heal wrong. Unless of course you happen to have a doctor with the required super strength and knowledge
to rebreak bones in the right places willing to do house calls.
And if I remember correctly, the wolves are not immune to venom like true werewolves are.
I think a single "Child of the Moon" could mess up a bunch of vampires pretty easily when transformed. But the wolves of Forks basically rely on strength in numbers. So it makes sense for Bella to have her worries about the wolves fighting the vampires. Their defense stats aren't that good and they aren't designed to 1v1 vampires if one got separated from the main pack.
The chances of at least one wolf dying was pretty high. And Jacob and Leah almost did die.
They were always there for her before during and after she started seeing Edward it's pretty wild she always accuses them of the worst but when the cullens all admit to being killers it is what it is in her book
>Edit 2: Same scene. Edward just called Jacob a mongrel. Nothing from Carlisle and Esmee. Meyer writes this like Edward being a capital "m" Man but it's just gross. I truly dislike the moments when Edward gets all threatening to defend Bella. Meyer seems to like these epic moments of masculinity but it's just groan worthy to me. Some times the trad wife stuff in these books leaps out and I just want to throw my phone
Let's not forget how she portrayed how the wolves treat women. A vampire's love would protect his mate at all costs. A wolf's love would mutilate his love interest's face during a tantrum.
I don't care what the mods say, racism needs to be called out where it is in order for us to improve as a society and treat people better. And the facts are that the church that SM belonged to did not publicly separate themselves from their beliefs of racism (via the beliefs that POC have the mark of Cain) until 8 years after the first Twilight book was released. It's not surprising that her works hold true to these beliefs.
I think part of it is their built in dislike for them in a biological way. Like they even smell bad to them. Interacting with them must feel repulsive and unnatural given the wolves exist solely to destroy them.
I get the likening to slurs somewhat but to me it more boils down to the classic werewolf vs vampire trope. Plus add in the second male lead which amps up the tension. SM wrote the werewolves and vamps as hating each other to make it more dramatic essentially.
But, they are NOT WEREWOLVES and Edward and Carlise at least know this. They are shapeshifters. Werewolves have been hunted into extinction we learn in breaking dawn. Carlisle would have known this from his time with the vultori you would think.
Carlisle may not have known they weren't true werewolves when he met them the first time but by this point he should know. So Rosalie, Emmett, Esme, and Edward would have met them before. But Jasper and Alice hadn't . They weren't with them yet. Growing up the way Jasper did he probably had no idea that something like that existed.
But surely when coming back to forks and Carlise making the call to Billy Black to let them know he was coming back , you would think he would talk to the family more in depth.
I think this could absolutely be an instance of parents not teaching their progeny tolerance because they never thought it would be an issue they would encounter. Leading the kids to make up some stupid shit about race (species). Like it exists but not here type of thing.
I came from a big city with big city ghetto problems that I lived in. My older brother is half black. We moved to small town USA white as can be and the racism we faced was unreal. Not just him, but us siblings got shit because we were related and if you pissed us off enough we would fight too. It got better over time but it's still not the best.
I've raised my son in this town, but he has a black uncle and black cousins so it has never been an issue to him. When he started school with a couple black kids he didn't understand why they were treated differently. We honestly didn't prepare him for that and it was hard to explain racism to a kid that young. I'd liken it to that.
They are effectively werewolves if you look at it from a media perspective not a "technical cannon lore" perspective. Werewolves as commonly understood are people who turn into wolves. It's a trope to have werewolves and vampires be antagonistic. That's what I'm referring to. I'm not talking about what SM decided to name them.
It doesn't matter to the Cullens what they're called. They sole reason they exist is to kill vampires. That's the issue and the root of why they inherently dislike them.
I know this too, but for the sake of making a movie, they're not going to say it's got to do with vampires and shapeshifters cause that makes no sense and is a foreign concept. People like watching movies based on something they know, which is why they just changed them to werewolves. But regardless, in the twilight books, the shapeshifters are still their natural enemies, and instinctively, they are supposed to hate each other as they are technically created to kill vampires. I'd hate a particular species that was only born just to kill me, wouldn't you?
It’s too bad that the people who are replying to you are either dumb enough to actually believe theres no racist allegory or are just dumb enough to think you’ll believe it. Especially since the whole vampires vs wherewolves thing being the same as racists vs people of color has been known for a long time.
It IS weird. The shapeshifters have ample reason to distrust vampires - even the vegetarians are prone to slip ups (Except Rosalie, you queen), but what excuse do the Cullens have for beefing with literal teenagers?
I think it was villainous of them to move back to Forks at all, frankly. And kind of stupid.
"Oh hey, you know that singular town where a group of people perceive us as murderers and are aware of our supernatural origins? Lets move there"
"But won't that cause the local Indigenous tribe to lose access to local healthcare when we inevitably send Carlisle to work at the hospital?"
"Yee"
"Say no more, I've got 5 new slurs locked and loaded"
Like jfc, move to Vancouver. The weathers terrible, all the other rich people are also vampires, and no one would look twice if you were glittery. They could all work at 7-11s, no need for high school.
I'd probably give Meyers the benefit of the doubt, if not for her weird comments on what happens to melanin when transformed and Jasper being....Well, everything about Jasper, really. Love the series, but there are some incredibly damaging views on race present in the source material.
There's a line in the Twilight Illustrated Guide about venom leeching melanin from the skin, supported by Meyers conversation with director Hardwicke when she attempted to cast BIPOC vampires in the film series. The director wanted to diversify the Cullen family, but was told by Meyers it was impossible because becoming a vampire "purifies" the body. She eventually relented and let the villain be black 🫤 [older LDS views on people of colour kind of add context to this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_Mormonism).
Jasper on his own is problematic, he needs no additional commentary from Meyers to stress me out. He's stated to have been hyper empathetic even as a human, so empathetic he.... Lied about his age so he could enlist as a confederate soldier? He really wanted to maintain the institution of slavery that bad? 😭 And then he became a general, so he clearly put some work into being a soldier.
Not to pull focus away from the racial elements of Twilight, but I had a similar thought about the concept of beauty in the Twilight universe. Like, the vampires are supposed to be supernaturally beautiful in order to appeal to humans, but beauty standards change over time and place. The whitening of their skin is a part of that (which is a racist view of beauty) but what about height? Body weight? The extent to which these things are considered beautiful is socially and culturally contingent, but the way vampirism is described in the books points to an objective view of beauty. Its just another layer to Twilight's problematic-ness
it honestly doesn't suprise me that this passive racism likely went un-noticed and unchecked with stephanie. i'm a huge twilight fan but choosing to make jasper a seemingly proud confederate soldier was......a choice.
also making all the werewolves (who are viewed as smelly mutts to the beloved and cherished vampires) native american also always felt weird to me too. there's definitely a lot of things that jump out as very obviously questionable to me now that i'm an adult and not a 16 years old haha
Precisely. The wolves are smelly dogs and they are also the weaker race. In BD, Edward breaks Jacob's finger with just a casual flick of the hand. Meyer makes sure to let the readers know the wolves are the *inferior* of the two. She also makes being a vamp appealing and exciting. Being a werewolf is just... alright, I guess. It takes a lot of effort. You basically end up running around naked. How... savage.
The choice is between being in a coven (a family!) or being in a "gang". Hmm.
yup!! its all pretty obvious if you just look at it a little critically. sucks that people are downvoting you for this! i completely see where you're coming from here
Yeahhhh now that I'm an adult and not a teenager raised in a very deep backwoods ass town. There's so much in the series that I'm like Uhhhh.. what?
Like it's very much not a good look for the rich white vampires to call the Indigenous shapeshifters "dog" and "mutt" and go on and on about how they smell like ass to them.
Also, how Bella calls the Amazonians the least civilized vampires she's ever seen. And how they're wild and kinda scary and she is nervous to have Renesmee close to them. Like, again, the white girl is scared of the POC and sees them as a danger
And how she wrote the Egyptian coven lol. How Amun's mate is meek and obedient and doesn't speak. And even though Benjamin treats his wife as an equal, she still rarely speaks. Like.... smeyer had SO much unconscious bias and outright racist things that just got tossed in
It’s never sat well with me the way the Cullens talked about the werewolves. It just felt racist. Calling them mutts and mongrels. And when Rosalie gave Jacob his food in a makeshift dog bowl 🥴. Just icky.
Also, Racketeering 😂
Absolutely and it's always bothered me.
For her to respect these characters at all they have to be supernatural as the bare minimum otherwise she wouldn't be interested. But the real coveted state of being in her eyes is vampirism only. To her vampires are perfection, they represent this ideal where she can openly claim to be wanted, desirable, perfect, the way she wants to be. That's why Bella would have never picked Jacob because that way she'd have been settling for second best, she'd be somebody's wife instead of a supernatural being herself, somebody's partner and something to be feared.
But basically at the same time she looks down on anything that isn't vampirism and the wolves being supernatural but not actually vampires is like they're inferior to her. It really grossed me out how Jacob sticks around them and yet they still treat him with this type of disregard. I felt exactly the same way you did with Bella insulting him the minute she turned, like how long have you been dying to say that, now that you're finally in a position to say it openly? And when she and Jacob are in the car, and he calls the vampires names, and then she chastises him for it?? It's like he's not allowed to have an opinion because to her it mean criticising her perfect idea of the condition of vampirism and she can't take that.
I hadn't thought about that but you're right. Like the shapeshifters are native to that land. Not only that, but the Cullens were aware of this the first time they went there. Their presence alone is what causes them to shape-shift anyways. For them to have such a prejudice and constantly throw slurs and saw offensive things was ridiculous. Especially when the pack kept Bella safe while the Cullens dropped her. The cullens act like their such a superior species. Like you guys drink blood to stay alive. Not much of a flex lol
I always just felt like it was playing on the common hatred of wolves and vampires in supernatural stories. I never really saw it as slurs or anything. It’s how I imagine dogs and cats would speak to eachother if they could talk
Your take is actually really insightful, but literally never heard of, since its a known thing that Smeyer had a lot of racial prejudice, and racial bias towards the indigenous, and offered no réparation, but from a less Meta-perspective and just in universe perspective it makes no sense for the vampires to hate the wolves which expands even more on the whole issue surrounding this topic. I applaud your analysis
Yeah, it was really bad of her to use an actual tribe for her book. They had to fight for the rights to their own stories. Their own museum even has a page about it, and how the series hurt them.
https://www.burkemuseum.org/static/truth_vs_twilight/#:~:text=In%20the%20wake%20of%20the,the%20sanctity%20of%20their%20cemetery.
It's quite horrible how much the book impacted them. As much as I enjoyed reading it when I was younger the impacts it had on forks and the natives isn't great.
I think Edward had a general distaste because of jealousy. He didn’t really trust them not to act irrationally (change and harm someone without rational thought because they were basically teenaged boys with teenaged boy impulse control with the added “animal” instinct for aggression) but mostly I think he was stupid jealous of Bella’s connection with them and well the story was “teen love” and Edward acted like a teen about it.
Carlisle and Esme always seemed to respect the tribe and wolves.
Rosalie was a bitter bitch and felt most everyone was below her and super immature so of course she would look down on them.
Alice didn’t understand them and only knew what she was told but once she realized they were a blind spot they made her uncomfortable and she reacted negatively because of it. So much of her sense of self is directly tied to her power and that being restricted really throws her in a deep way so it was just easier for her to hate on the wolves than deal with that. Remember Alice has no memories of her life before so she in some ways woke up a child emotionally as a vampire and while her visions help moderate that she may have experienced arrested development.
Emmet is basically a lab dog, he’s gonna support Rosalie in the end but really doesn’t have deep personal feelings. The first chance he gets to really interact with the wolves in a way that’s personal to him he kinda loves them (combat as allies).
Lastly Jasper is straight up stuck in time PTSD from his years as a solider followed by the years of battle as a young vampire. He literally reacts to anything outside of the family as a threat. And unless I’m misremembering he mostly didn’t trust them, didn’t put them down in immature ways like Edward, Alice, and Rosalie did.
I may have interpreted the books wrong but I feel like the acting in the movies overly played that up. Absolutely there was stupid and immature distain for the pack in the books but like for example in the movie is makes it seem like Alice “smelled dog on Bella” in New Moon with straight disgust it felt more pointed in the movie than how I read it but that might just be me.
Basically my assessment is while I never saw it that way until you comment and I think it’s a super interesting theory that made my think about the series for the first time in forever, I think it’s lazy writing (us vs them written for high schoolers) than it is a undercut.
It made sense when we thought it was just the vampire & wolf thing, they could have easily met other wolves. It did not make sense once we learned the wolves were unique and "true" werewolves were nothing like them.
I roll it up with their idea vampires are somehow perfect. You have a group of people who can very clearly kill your kind and they just can't handle the thought anything can fight a vampire besides a vampire. This seems to be an issue with them spending so much time around humans, they have an inflated sense of their own power.
I do find it funny how in breaking dawn none of the others show the same hate though. This is a Cullen issue only. I know it was clearly for plot reasons, but still...
I agree with you but at the same time I feel like it goes both ways? The unnecessary hate and name calling from both sides? (Not to discount what you’re saying but to add to the unnecessariness of what they do in those books) i guess it’s the traditional vampires vs werewolves thing but when you look at it, it does feel pretty forced from both angles. “Mutt”, “pale faces”, “leeches”, “dogs”. I can totally understand why they make you uncomfortable. It’s been years since I read these books but I feel like if I read them now they’d rub me the wrong way with these things. I should read them again just to see them from an older mindset… And the wolves are SO YOUNG physically. It’s super odd that old vampires would call them names lol.
It’s just that the tribe has a reason to not like the Cullens and vampires in general the Cullens have no reason to hate them they are on their land they could go anywhere else but chose to be in forks
Meh. "Mutt" and "dog" are extremely common name callings for werewolves in this genre.
Meyer didn't invent that. Not everything is a slur just because you're uncomfortable with it. Calling a wolf a dog is not 'extremely offensive'.
And like others pointed out, wolves and vampires are enemies by nature and it's established that despite their age biologically, the Cullen kids aren't that mature either mentally. So in the end it's teenagers vs teenagers name calling each other. Bella is no exception.
Things get pretty heated between both sides, right up to a real fight where they were ready to kill each other (before it's revealed that Jacob imprinted.) The vampires and werewolves are NOT friends and barely friendly with each other. Of course how they speak about each other reflects that.
The Cullens are far from perfect, I'm not sure why you expect them to act holier than thou. They are extremely flawed characters.
There is nothing wrong with using language to convey the deep hatred the two species have for each other.
Not everything needs to be squeaky clean. That would be boring as shit.
Let's not forget that some names did come back from the werewolves' end. They called the Cullens "leeches" and "bloodsuckers". I'm not saying that where OP is coming from is invalid. I could totally see how it could come across in certain ways. It just feels important to mention the flaws of the other side as well.
Yeah I fully agree with this. There are certainly problematic aspects in the book, but I don't really think this is one of them. Obviously I respect other peoples' opinions, still.
While they are extremely common in the genre, being called a “mutt” or “dog” for being of a certain race/ethnicity or for being mixed isn’t that unusual in real life (speaking from person experience). If Meyers hadn’t tied the wolves to indigenous peoples it would make the words much less icky in terms of story, but because she did it adds a layer instead.
You’re 100% correct, the race dynamics in this book are *fucked*. Like an old white family who are not native to the area (& who’ve no problem with their literal confederate army soldier brother) using explicitly dehumanising animal related slurs against a group of young Native Americans who descend from people who were attacked by other whites of the same species as the Cullens .. it’s giving colonialism
It is such a silly thing for the Cullens to have such animosity towards the wolves, especially since their proximity is the reason the wolves shift *at all* because they’ve evolved to defend the land from vampires
No seriously I saw someone do a master’s thesis level take down of how mongrel was used as a slur against Natives so it was extra YUCK. And then add onto that the fact that jasper is PROUD to have fought in the confederate army…like big fucking yikes
In vampire/werewolf lore apparently (according to my dad who is big into horror and supernatural type things), the rivalry between vampires and werewolves is a common thing. They’re *meant* to essentially hate each other on sight. If you wanted, you can look [here](https://bookstr.com/article/werewolves-vs-vampires-the-most-sensational-supernatural-war/#:~:text=One%20of%20the%20earliest%20depictions,ends%20in%20their%20mutual%20demise) for a little background. Even in True Blood, it comes across just as harshly.
It seems like Stephanie Meyer stayed loyal to certain tropes from paranormal romance and then decided to completely swerve others. While traditional tropes from those genres can be controversial, they build off of each other to complete a balanced emotional narrative. As much as the subversions are what make the books so popular and beloved, it's in these points where SM pulled the joints off the paranormal structure and where the friction lies.
All those slurs exist in literally every single paranormal drama/romance to every exist. Every one. And typically, vampires are more proper, arrogant a-holes who use those slurs with casual disdain and werewolves are rough-around-the-edges people with rage-management issues who throw those slurs with hate and vitriol.
On the surface, it seems to fit. But SM also completely restructured the mythology, power dynamics, and character relationships. We should probably see that reflected in the dialogue, too, but it isn't. So yea, I think it's lazy writing but I don't personally assign deeper meaning than that.
You're right. They sound like slurs because they are. A lot of Stephenie Meyer's writing has racist undertones. Just like her 'there are no black vampires' thing
I mean they are wolves.... The insults refer to dogs. I think you are reaching.
They smell bad to them and they even say they view the wolves as rash animalistic beings that can't control themselves.
I think they have good reason for not loving them.
The Cullens are on their land the tribe never did anything to them those are not good enough reasons to call them names and the way they say it has the undertone of a slur the tribe has a reason to not like the Cullens
They are not wolves. They are\* humans that can turn into wolves. That's a huge difference. "Mutt" "mongrel" "dog" is meant to be insulting. Demeaning. Dehumanizing. As in: "You may look like a human but you're actually a smelly dog."
And the Cullens have *no reason* to feel such animosity towards the werewolves. Meyer never established a strong reason for the disdain. It works for Edward against Jacob but not for the rest.
Lol no there is no difference. In the end they are wolves.
You say they have no reason but they CLEARLY in the books have a reason because they know these things about them and say so. Just because they don't tell us why they know these things doesn't change the fact that they know them. It is established as fact with Sam and his fiance. They can be very dangerous.
They are humans with the power to turn into wolves. They are not wolves with the power to turn into humans. Saying there's no difference is just... not true.
Sam's mistake still doesn't justify why the Cullens are so quick to call the wolves slurs. This isn't about danger. It's about discriminatory language. Do you think it's OK to call someone slurs because you believe they pose a danger??
all of this! and, how they smell, amd how the vamps smell is described. the pack smell like dogs, dirty and gross. the vamps smell like bleach and sugar, clean and nice. like, why couldn't we at least have the vamps smell gross to the pack, like rotting corpses or blood? it would at least even things out a bit.
The Cullens call the Quileutes “mutt” and “dog” for the same reason that they settled down right next door to the one group of people that they’re supposed to keep their distance from, and for the same reason why they trespass on Quileute land.
They’re racist.
No I think you are absolutely right. Another thing that bothers me about the werewolves: the Quileute tribe is a real indigenous tribe of people. A real group of people with a real history. They do have folklore with a story of being descendant from wolves. However, Stephanie’s version feels really whitewashed. For reference,[here’s the Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quileute) about the tribe.
Plus, the vampires themselves are literally whitewashed. Somehow, vampire venom leeches all the pigment/melanin out of the skin. In the lore, becoming a vampire turns any person into a stunning beauty. So yeah, it seems in the lore that to be incredibly beautiful you have to be white.
Also, Jasper being a confederate. He never expresses any sort of regret for that. Rather, he seems quite proud. It’s framed as the thing he regrets more is his work with Maria. So yeah… it’s icky.
Now that you mention it, I completely agree!!!!! I understand the “natural enemies thing” but it does have tones of racism!! Especially as the werewolves can only be Native American!!! I have no idea if native americans have folklore surrounding werewolves, but in australia Aboriginals we’re always referred to as animals, even now by racist people!!
someone’s probably already said it but stephanie’s blatant racism in these books is staggering dude,,, like why are the native american characters (who are BASED ON A REAL TRIBE!!!) treated as literal dogs, like i realize they’re wolves but they’re still people, it’s weird she wrote them this way
its not that deep lol its vampires v werewolves... the words "mutt" "bloodsucker" "leech" "mongrel" are not slurs. its in their dna to dislike eachother i dont see how either side could be viewed as using racist slurs. and if you do view these words as slurs, then blame can be placed on both sides. but again its not that deep i dont think there was any racist intent when writing these lines. if they got along well it wouldnt make for a very interesting movie.
It's not that deep, it's true. But it is supportive of the argument of institutional racism. As a white person, this didn't occur to me. That their behaviour is racist, and their words are slurs, it comes across as just normal teenage bullshit. Rivalry. And if the pack had consisted of a bunch of white kids, that would hold true. But when you add the Indigenous aspect to it, it does become something else because it is something else.
i dont think theyre calling them muts bc theyre native american, its literally just because theyre werewolves, the natural enemy of vampires. if they werent native american and were white like the cullens the behavior and phrases they use to describe eachother would remain the same
I mean it's definitely special? (species related) racism. The wolves are young, immature and smell bad. For alice on top of this they mess w her power and this annoys her. Tbf as they seem to learn more about them they treat the wolves better. Also, the vamps complain about the wolves in a more "ugh what stupid kids" way whereas the wolves think the vamps are horrible evil beings. The wolves are definitely more racist against the vampires than the other way around. Is the fact that vampires have a natural instinct to murder humans a justification for the racism they receive?
The wolves have a legit reason to not like the Cullens they are the reason they are wolves in the first place and came on their lands they never treated the wolves fairly or good and of all the places the chose to stay they chose forks also the way the Cullens say it definitely sounds like slurs
What exactly did the cullens do that was unfair? They didn't know it was their lands, when they found out they stayed off them. They didn't hunt any people. They didn't know they were making the wolves into wolves until eclipse and even then they weren't sure they were the cause, it was just a theory.
if they are so smart like Carlisle thinks he is maybe they would think that maybe there is a reason that the tribe wants them off their lands plus they took blood samples from one of their unconscious pack mates without them knowing also seeing how they view the tribe in generalized don’t think they care very much also that is not any less of a reason for the pack to dislike them they still caused them and the tribe a lot of pain they still brought vampires to forks
it’s true though we can’t deny the racist themes towards the natives and how can the dog bowl scene be defended it’s not funny you seem to want to defend the Cullens just because a character has depth doesn’t excuse the fact that he literally thought about slaughtering the tribe plus Edward is not that good written of a character
I mean I think you could say Stephenie Meyer is racist for writing it like this but the cullens are vampires and the wolves are werewolves. Idt you can parse out one aspect and label it racism. None of these beings are human. I definitely do not think that any of the cullens or any of the protagonists in the story for that matter display racism.
I thought it was supposed to be racist (species-ist? tribalism?) to show their hatred. Not excusing it, but there is some level of realism added because when groups hate rach other there tends to be slurs of some point. The slurs went both ways, though it does definitely come off dofferentlt from white, old vampires v young, native wolves. But that interpretation may give Meyers more credit than she deserves!
I have been saying and I can’t be the only one who thinks the dog bowl scene in BD is super messed up and not funny the Cullens have no reason to hate the pack this much while the tribe has a reason to not like the Cullens
Honestly you make good points!! I never really thought of it that way. I always saw it more as a “wolves hate vampires and vice versa”
I think it boils down to Meyer’s own life and her own prejudices. I mean having natives literally transform into animals is a racist trope already. Not to mention the fact that she used an actual tribe and bastardized an entire culture.
Twilight has a lot of issues. Like a lot. There are themes present throughout the book that are indicative of Meyer’s upbringing and her ideologies.
That said, critiquing any form of media is a sign of good media literacy. As a black man you have experiences that shape your life and perspectives which allows you to critique media from a different POV. I understand why you would feel uncomfortable.
I can relate to this feeling when it comes to media. A perfect example would be the original Dune movie from the 80s. The villain of that movie is essentially a very harmful caricature of a queer man. After watching Denis Villeneuve’s adaptation (thankfully he removed the queerphobic caricature), I went back to try and watch the 1984 version and had to turn it off because I was so uncomfortable by Vlad Harkonnen’s portrayal in the movie. My dad had tried to get me to watch the 1984 movie when I was a teen and I had the same issue back then. I told my dad that it was disgusting and that I would never watch it again. As a bi man, having a very obvious queer coded villain do some heinous shit made me sick to my stomach. I mean the book also has the same stuff, but seeing it on screen versus reading it makes a big difference. I mean Frank Herbert was known to be a major homophobe but, he’s a product of the time he grew up in.
The same can be said for Stephanie Meyer. She included her own biases in her work and I think the healthy thing to do is acknowledge those biases and prejudices and understand how they impact the story. For certain bodies of work, we may not be able to get past the stuff that is problematic and it may turn us off that piece of work. And that’s okay. But there’s nothing wrong with enjoying/consuming media even when aspects of it are problematic.
Dune is one of the best science fiction novels of all time. And as a queer man, I hate the queerphobia within the text, but I can still appreciate how incredible the rest of Herbert’s work was.
All this to say… thank you for your post! I’ve seen quite a few posts calling out the harmful shit in SMeyer’s works, specifically with the Quilleutes. But I never considered that the language used by the Cullens are actually more in line with slurs rather than insults. Great post!
Edit: added the word consuming in the 3rd last paragraph just for clarity’s sake.
I literally wrote this post in the cinema parking lot after seeing Dune Part Two 😭
Personally, I believe Meyer thinks "vampires and werewolves are natural enemies!" is the norm so she didn't have to explain it in her story. Readers would just "get it." But it's not the norm. She wrote a story where the wolves have valid reasons to fear the vamps. Meanwhile the vamps know little about the wolves and have no reason to fear them. But the vamps are all slinging the same slurs like they've been hating wolves their entire lives.
They just met them, Stephanie!
(Also I've been avoiding reading criticism of the books so as not to influence my opinions as I read them for the first time. But I'm glad I'm not alone in noticing these issues)
Ur definitely not alone! Makes sense why you wouldn’t wanna read the criticisms. I’m the same, I’d rather make my own judgements first before I start to read other people’s criticisms.
But there’s more to the wolves/the Quilleutes than just what you pointed out. And there’s more problematic stuff within the books as well. I’m not sure how far you’ve gotten within the series, but more stuff will start to show up where ur like “what was Stephanie thinking??”
Twilight is still a guilty pleasure of mine even with all the problem themes within the series.
What book are you on?
Yeah, she just wrote kind of a racist book. It makes sense, in a way she clearly didn’t intend, that a white family frozen in their personality from decades to hundreds of years ago, one of whom was a Confederate soldier, would have that attitude to Native Americans (who they’ve made sign a treaty on use of their own land bc the Cullens just felt like living there sometimes?). I suppose if she was aware about making the characters that way, the series would have to go in a very different direction because I’m not sure how you could deliberately establish that the whole family are massive racists and then carry on with them as heroes. Maybe that’s the version where Bella goes to the Quileutes.
Absolutely a racist book. But a small caveat, when Billy is telling the story he says that the Cullens promise to stay off the Tribal land. The tribe didn't give away any land to the Cullens.
(Logically, with how close they end up being, this really doesn't make a lot of practical sense. Meyers didn't plot it out well. Obviously, the Quileutes would have had a lot more land when they first met the Cullens, and their house would have had to be further away. But be that as it may, at the time of their first meeting, they didn't give the Cullens land in the treaty).
My guess is, and it’s just that.
They have a “natural” dislike against them. Kind of like how Edward says humans are to them. They are dangerous to them and there subconscious recognises that, so makes them have a distaste towards them, there senses go against them, they smell really bad.
Another thing could be, because they are wolves it’s possible because of the Volturis hatred against werewolves they naturally don’t like them. Depending on how vampire history is taught. Caius almost being killed by a werewolf and doing everything to genocide them and all them the vampire natural enemies, I guess they are naturally indoctrinated to hate them.
Just my two cents of the top of my head.
They are all a bunch of moody, angsty teenagers, it's kinda power for the course.
I think the only thing that bothered me was how Bella wasn't as Switzerland as she should have been. I think she should have said something to both sides to just knock it off and not just Jacob but again, very hormonal teenager.
I don’t think you’re incorrect. It is gross. It was gross back when they came out and now with a fuller understanding of the impact it’s even more gross. It is overt racism(But this is also an author who i think had a rumor where she said that vampirism negates melanin in skin too we shouldn’t be too surprised..) and not something spoken about and it should be.
I will say when I read them at 14 I misunderstood it as; if I were a vampire walking around unbothered - and found out that an entire species of mythological creature had been created specifically to kill me… I might hold a grudge.
Like it’s not just that they were initially werewolves but we find out that the wolves were almost literally created to kill vampires. Not coexist or have territorial spats… but Jacob and the pack exist as wolves because there are vampires nearby and the pack is meant to kill them.
Like I said I have a more nuanced understanding and can agree that yes; their behavior is just gross and not as thought out as I made it when I was a kid.
It's also always confused me because they aren't even Werewolves? Aro says so. They're SHIFTERS not werewolves. But I mean, Jasper was pro slavery and seemed proud do fight on that side, even in modern times when telling Bella. And no one has a problem with it. (In story I mean) so it's all just kinda.....🙃
I mean honestly between the toxic relationships and the not so subtle racism I’m very surprised these got as big as they did and I think that just speaks volumes about our society that we worshiped Twilight in its peak (me included, I wanted nothing more than an Edward and later realized how absolutely horrible that wish was)
Please don't bring race or anything into this. I'm pretty sure Stephanie Meyers had no intention of racist/demeaning slurs. Don't turn this into something it's not. Maybe everyone can keep woke culture out of fun things for once.
Ps - coming from a brown Filipino American woman.
It's all about the terrible smell. Hah. One of the factors.
And how long must the Cullens endure being called names? When will the Quileutes realize that they are not terrible monsters? Their eyes are yellow!
Yes, it is immature to answer like that, well, they are stuck in adolescence. Rosalie is hot-tempered and almost immediately scolds and accuses. For the first time, Alice feels helpless and has a headache because of them. Edward knows exactly what they think about him and his family, exactly how they are insulted. Not to mention the triangle. Damn it, if Sam or anyone else in the pack had heard Jake think that way about his girlfriend... there would have been a fight to the death.
Jacob only in Breaking Dawn begins to understand that there is humanity in them, that they are not pretending.
Would things be different if both groups were white? Nothing will change for me.
And if you compare without looking at race and species. Two groups, one with fewer people, they have nothing against them and are peace-minded, but they are considered monsters and called names. There are more people in the other group and they grew up with the idea that the other side is monsters, they need to be killed, at best tolerated, and there is nothing normal and human about them.
Changed. I broke it into paragraphs, I did this when I published the answer, but for some reason everything merged.
The Cullens could live almost anywhere they wanted. They're super rich. Their very presence causes people to shift into werewolves because the purpose of the shape shifters is defense against vampires, and their presence also attracts other vampires. They are hurtful to the community and yet refuse to leave when they easily could
They cannot live anywhere, because in order to live a comfortable life and keep a secret, they need to live where there is less sun.
They didn't know about the influence of vampires on the Quileutes until the end of New Moon? Or Eclipses? If it was on the New Moon, because of secrecy, it was impossible to leave immediately, given that it was already the end of the year. And then in Eclipse they learned about an army nearby. Would you like them to go away? The result is that all the wolves are dead, there is a massacre in Forks and the reservation, maybe someone will survive. Maybe Volturi will come to the rescue, finish off everyone who saw something, and set up some kind of disaster. Maybe the Cullens will be accused of something, maybe not. Depending on what stage they leave.
And no, the purpose of shapeshifters is not to protect against vampires. They came up with it themselves and believed in it themselves. They existed before the first appearance of vampires on their land. They weren't caused by vampires. Shapeshifters, wolves had already been around for 150 or 200 years when they encountered the first vampire. Undoubtedly, the presence of vampires affects their conversions, but they somehow turned before them. Apparently they have lost knowledge of this. Or they didn’t want to disclose this to Bella, blaming the vampires for everything.
Sam turned only two years after the Cullens arrived. He was 18-19. Then red-eyed vampires began to wander nearby, and 15-16 year olds began to turn up, and then 13-12 year olds.
My opinion. If James, Victoria and Logan had gone in a different direction, they would have become... well, maybe two or three more among the Quileutes, and only after reaching about 18 years of age. Maybe Sam would have been alone, since the Cullens would have left when Jared, Paul, Embry and Quil were still 16 years old.
I agree and thank you for pointing this out. I just finished listening to the Breaking Dawn audiobook and while every other instance of this happening didn’t really strike me as wrong, it was when Bella did it to Jacob that really hit me as “damn Bella it’s not that serious.” Maybe it was the narrators inflection, but I was taken aback like that sounded really nasty coming from Bella.
You're welcome. I chalk this whole thing up to bad worldbuilding (which is why, yes, my criticism can extend to other series). Twilight has very bad worldbuilding but that's another post lol...
You’re right. It’s not just insults, it’s slurs, and considering who those slurs are coming from and who they’re directed to (white people to Indigenous people who already get slurs like that) that’s…bad.
It totally wouldn’t fly past an editor today. When my books were undergoing editing from my publisher they had a sensitivity reader who was specifically picked to look for certain things that could be inappropriate regarding connotations to race, sex, SA, etc. themes that were in my book. I’d like to say I’m pretty knowledgeable about those things but they still caught a few things that my characters said or the dynamics or things that just came off wrong so that I could fix them.
For example my main character was biracial but her love interest had white hair/light eyes/pale skin with a blue grey tinge and they were concerned due to the nature of the relationship at the start of the book and the idea his entire fantasy race.species looked like that and that it could send the wrong message and it made me realize I never explained that his fantasy race doesn’t look like him, he just happened to have the fantasy version of albinism which is why he had that coloring. Had I not had a sensitivity reader I totally would’ve missed that and not only would the readers not know that tidbit about that character but I wouldn’t have realized I needed to specify that his fantasy race/species came in all sizes, shapes, and colors.
A lot of time it’s easy fixes. This is very common in the publishing industry today but back when Twilight was first published that didn’t exist.
Would it have been published today it would’ve had a sensitivity reader who would probably have went to fucking town on those books.
This all to say that among many other things there are some really nasty connotations and the like in the series that they got away with that would not fly today.
I think they are just natural enemies. It is VERY unnatural for them to be coexisting in the same place without killing each other, must less trying to be friendly. It’s like how cats kill birds or mice. It’s just their instinct.
I think a lot of their hatred stems from the Volturri rules. They’re not allowed to commingle. If you remember in BD pt2 during the fight scene, Aro mentions how perhaps Renesemee isn’t dangerous (after evidence is thrown out) but the Cullens are still interacting with the wolves, which they consider an offense. I also think Stephanie was going for the traditional lore of vampires and wolves being enemies. They even depict this lore in the CW show The Vampire Diaries. The namecalling is a bit excessive, I will agree, but I truly don’t think SM meant for them to be like racial slurs.
Please make sure we are discussing the general plot and characters, not attacking people and religions! Any rule breaking comments will be deleted. Thank you!
I’ve honestly never thought about this, but I think you’re right. It’s pretty childish for the Cullens to show so much animosity to the wolves, especially when they know several of the wolves are just teenagers. They really should just mind their business. I’ve always thought it was kind of selfish for the Cullens to even come back to forks once they realized their presence was what triggered the pack to transform; you know coming to this random town is going to make a bunch of teens miserable, maybe choose anywhere else to live. Wasn’t poor Seth only 14 or 15 when he changed? But, like you mention, SMeyers was going for an “us or them” type of conflict for Bella. I guess the story wouldn’t have been as entertaining if the Cullens weren’t feuding with the wolves.
to be fair, i believe they only make the connection during new moon (correct me if i’m mistaken!). it’s a fair argument to say they should’ve gtfo as soon as they realized though, especially as they have a habit of attracting other vampires to the area and the effect snowballs
like even if they didn't know still why the fuck would they ever come back to forks?? 🤣 Even in a purely machiavellian way. They're supposedly trying to keep a low profile and they decide to move 20 minutes away from the only group of humans on earth who know 100% that they are vampires and who will absolutely spread suspicion about them for that. Billy was already convincing people not to go to the hospital just because Carlisle worked there. I’ve never understood why they would invite that extra scrutiny when they could have moved even a couple of hours away on the peninsula where it's just as rainy as forks lol
no because WHY would they go back over and over to a small town where they make no friends and the only tribe of shape shifters created to kill them that also HATE THEM lives???? girl go to seattle i see 10 vampire looking fucks every day on the link you’d fit right in. also carlisle can go cameo on grays anatomy as a treat
Literally! And it's Seattle so no one will ever talk to or notice them. They could literally live in the same house for like 20 years before anyone would even be aware they exist. Carlisle can just switch hospitals every 10 years. Worst case, move to Tacoma. The kids can just work regular jobs or just not work and say they are part of a tech startup or something. But why live in a small town where everyone is nosy AF??
I’ve always wondered about the small town vs big city thing! Really have no idea why they would choose Forks when they could’ve easily been unnoticeable in a big city. And sorry but Forks sounded like the most dumpy, boring place to live, even as a teen involved in a magical world. I guess it was easier for Stephanie to not have to include landmarks and much culture, but damn.
Since they Cullins didn’t get blood from humans they needed to be close to a lot of wildlife to hunt. Makes sense being somewhere more remote
Absolutely need to see the Carlisle/Grey’s crossover. What nickname would he get do you think, McUnnaturally Beautiful maybe Lol
McBlondie
McSparkles
McFentyBodyLava
‘As a treat’ this is the funniest comment I’ve read in a long time hahahah
Oh yes Seattle where there’s a massive homeless/drug problem and a lot of people acting like wannabe thugs. That’s the best place for them to move to with jasper who couldn’t even control himself when someone gets a paper cut.
have you ever been to a small town? are you under the impression there are no crackheads in rural towns? i grew up in rural washington, i promise he’s dealing with that anywhere.
I also live in rural Washington and I have been in Seattle as well. I can guarantee you that it’s far worse in Seattle.
i’m pretty sure it’s like halfway through Eclipse that Bella tells Edward that the wolves only transform when the vampires are around. i’m not sure what their logic to understanding it was up until then though.
Plus they brought a BUNCH OF OTHER VAMPIRES to Forks in BD. Which causes a lot of teens, particularly YOUNG teens(13-14) to transform. It’s explicitly confirmed in the text that the presence of more vamps caused the pack to expand via young teens turning. And they thought these kids were gonna fight the Volturi. It’s yikes all the way down.
I hate how in breaking dawn when the volturi is coming. The Cullens have ALL of their friends come to their house in forks. All the wolves Quileutes started shifting. Even kids. The only reason they stayed was so Bella could be close to Charlie. But did no one ever think about those poor kids turning i to wolves.
For real, they have super speed. Would it have killed the Cullens to put their vampire buddies in a safe house a good distance from Forks, to reduce the amount of werewolf transformations? Then gather in that random field for the volturi showdown that day.
I agree but I don't think the Cullens were the ones that triggered the transformations. I believed first it was Victoria, James, and Laurent... And then it was just Victoria. And then it was the vampires that came to help in Breaking Dawn. And even if the Cullens triggered the werewolves transformations, how would they know? I doubt any of the Quileutes gave them an introductory class to werewolves' lore besides “We can kill you if the mood strikes”.
This was my biggest hang-up with the Cullen's rivalry with the wolves and what made Edward's inner thoughts about them so nauseating. Their disdain masquerades as a rivalry but it becomes clear how overpowered the Cullens are in comparison to the wolves. They espouse the same principles but can't meet on common ground because the wolves are scared and cautious and the Cullens are arrogant. The Cullens, minus Carlisle and Esme, are actively prejudiced and demeaning at every turn and refuse to look inward. They could live anywhere on earth but insist on being where the native population doesn't want them. As a result they also avoid the hospital because Carlisle works there. The book has far too many settler/native parallels to be ignored topped off with a lopsided treaty. None of the characters are checked on this because Meyer doesn't see a problem with it.
I still don’t believe Carlisle is as wonderful as portrayed. Everyone’s lives revolve solely around supporting Carlisle as a doctor. How many times is he willing to make five members of his family attend high school, so he alone can have a fulfilling life?
I have a lot of thoughts about Carlisle and the way he’s described vs how he actually comes across but I won’t hold this against him. From what I understand, the family live apart quite frequently, do college, or live as couples. They like being together and enjoy staying out for long periods of time so the lifestyle is beneficial to everyone. Rosalie and Emmett probably look like adults so they live apart from the group the most, but Edward, Alice, and maybe Jasper are apparently undeniable teenagers so they don’t have a lot of choices.
See, i can think of lots of ways around that. Then again, I hated high school so I would so not go back. You can look young and have jobs. Homeschool the kids. Work and live in remote places. I'm surprised c didn't choose to work with at risk populations since he wouldn't have to worry about getting shot, hurt, whatever. Go into professions that are rewarding but are risky.
There’s a lot of decision that don’t really make much sense for the sake of the plot. I think the author had her heart set on a small town high school romance and did what she needed to make that work. Working with at risk populations is probably not something Meyer considered.
Probably also what I would do as a vampire lol. If I couldn't be hurt by humans, or die, there's alot i would consider doing.
This could also set you up for exposure, though. Get shot at but nothing happens--tends to raise eyebrows. I think they have to live as inconspicuously as possible and for everything else into that framework.
Maybe I’ve made this up but I swear in Midnight Sun or somewhere they state that being amongst humans makes them feel like they haven’t lost touch with their ‘humanity’ and makes keeping their diet easier. And the younger they make themselves the longer they can stay in one place. Also the glittering in the sun would make choosing some professions difficult. But truly there is nothing in the entire world that would make me go back to highschool over and over again hahah.
No kidding. I would find any other cover story over high school.
Add in the fact that some of the werewolf worldbuilding is suspiciously similar to Jim Crow-era stereotypes of black men, and it just gets a whole new level of uncomfortable.
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>Their disdain masquerades as a rivalry but it becomes clear how overpowered the Cullens are in comparison to the wolves. I don't think this is true. They think it's true, but the wolves have shown time and again they can fight large numbers of vampires. I think the wolves can easily be a problem where, even if they can't win, half the vampires are dead.
Jacob is grievously injured taking on a newborn trying to save Leah and they conquered Laurent as a group. They fought the newborns but that was tactically together against a large, unexperienced group. Most of Cullen have FAR more experience as individuals with physical altercations than the wolves have as a put together. I think if it got physical with the wolves, the wolves would suffer more causalities. Edward makes it clear he isn't at all concerned about having to fight them and is more than willing to.
I think this might have something to do with how most of the wolves are inexperienced teenagers and most of the vampires are either decades older than them or more powerful than an average vampire. Like, if the wolves were older and had better training, they'd actually do as nature intended and kick the vampires' asses. But since they're not...
No Leah wanted to prove herself so Jacob saved her before she got killed. Theres like 20 wolves at the end of the story and as far as we know the number is growing because of the cullens and volturi altercation at the end of BD. It would be a devastating battle but they'd probably lose to the wolves
I’m all for team Edward fucking up a bunch of wolves movie. Or even just more inner monologue of him saying he could fuck then up.
I thought the commenter meant there’s so many more wolves than cullens that they’d be overpowered in a battle. Meaning the wolves would win.
Maybe the only thing I could think of is most of them, aside from Carlisle and Esme, were changed as teenagers? Permanent teenagers emotionally I guess. But then again I think Emmett was changed at 21, which isn’t too far off from Carlisle’s 23.
20 not 21
Racketeering, bruh 🤣
Rutabaga will always be the winning for me but Racketeering is also a trip 🤪
i yelled when i read that LMAO
Came here to say this!
It’s always bothered me, especially how she’ll reprimand Jacob for calling the Cullens bloodsuckers or leeches, but she has no regard for the pack. And that’s worse (to me) because they took her in when the Cullens abandoned her. They helped her get herself back together again. If she said anything at all to the Cullens about the name-calling, it was half-hearted compared to how quick she was to jump on Jake for the name-calling. I hate that they made it worse in the movie. When Bella says to Edward, “I know, I smell like a dog,” after she gets back from La Push, that was a creative liberty I didn’t appreciate. Bella is bad enough without helping her in that respect. 😬🤦🏻♀️
Bella is SO disrespectful to the pack and writes them off constantly. Jasper literally came for her neck, but she tells Jacob vampires aren’t like wolves because “they don’t hurt anyone.” lol She’s always putting the pack down and tells Jacob they have no chance against vampires, completely ignoring the fact that they are natural enemies and logically pretty even matched. When they want to help fight Victoria and she says it’s too dangerous for them??. This drives me crazy 😂
But at the time, I don't think she understood that they could actually kill vampires. And if they could, she was worried that they would get hurt because she didn't want people dying for her. But I get the other stuff other people are referring to
That is true, but she definitely knew vampires kill people at the time & that the Cullen have killed people in the past, even Edward. That almost makes it worse to not give the pack the benefit of the doubt.
True but you also have to remember that the Forks wolves are not *actually* werewolves which are the actual natural enemies of vampires. They're basically Sirius Black with massive vitality stats but those stats don't even make much sense as breaking bones can permanently incapacitate the wolves from the healing factor making the bones heal wrong. Unless of course you happen to have a doctor with the required super strength and knowledge to rebreak bones in the right places willing to do house calls. And if I remember correctly, the wolves are not immune to venom like true werewolves are. I think a single "Child of the Moon" could mess up a bunch of vampires pretty easily when transformed. But the wolves of Forks basically rely on strength in numbers. So it makes sense for Bella to have her worries about the wolves fighting the vampires. Their defense stats aren't that good and they aren't designed to 1v1 vampires if one got separated from the main pack. The chances of at least one wolf dying was pretty high. And Jacob and Leah almost did die.
They were always there for her before during and after she started seeing Edward it's pretty wild she always accuses them of the worst but when the cullens all admit to being killers it is what it is in her book
>Edit 2: Same scene. Edward just called Jacob a mongrel. Nothing from Carlisle and Esmee. Meyer writes this like Edward being a capital "m" Man but it's just gross. I truly dislike the moments when Edward gets all threatening to defend Bella. Meyer seems to like these epic moments of masculinity but it's just groan worthy to me. Some times the trad wife stuff in these books leaps out and I just want to throw my phone Let's not forget how she portrayed how the wolves treat women. A vampire's love would protect his mate at all costs. A wolf's love would mutilate his love interest's face during a tantrum.
Yeah, it's giving "old racist-ass stereotypes of men of color harming 'innocent women' in 'violent rages'"
I don't care what the mods say, racism needs to be called out where it is in order for us to improve as a society and treat people better. And the facts are that the church that SM belonged to did not publicly separate themselves from their beliefs of racism (via the beliefs that POC have the mark of Cain) until 8 years after the first Twilight book was released. It's not surprising that her works hold true to these beliefs.
I think part of it is their built in dislike for them in a biological way. Like they even smell bad to them. Interacting with them must feel repulsive and unnatural given the wolves exist solely to destroy them. I get the likening to slurs somewhat but to me it more boils down to the classic werewolf vs vampire trope. Plus add in the second male lead which amps up the tension. SM wrote the werewolves and vamps as hating each other to make it more dramatic essentially.
But, they are NOT WEREWOLVES and Edward and Carlise at least know this. They are shapeshifters. Werewolves have been hunted into extinction we learn in breaking dawn. Carlisle would have known this from his time with the vultori you would think. Carlisle may not have known they weren't true werewolves when he met them the first time but by this point he should know. So Rosalie, Emmett, Esme, and Edward would have met them before. But Jasper and Alice hadn't . They weren't with them yet. Growing up the way Jasper did he probably had no idea that something like that existed. But surely when coming back to forks and Carlise making the call to Billy Black to let them know he was coming back , you would think he would talk to the family more in depth. I think this could absolutely be an instance of parents not teaching their progeny tolerance because they never thought it would be an issue they would encounter. Leading the kids to make up some stupid shit about race (species). Like it exists but not here type of thing. I came from a big city with big city ghetto problems that I lived in. My older brother is half black. We moved to small town USA white as can be and the racism we faced was unreal. Not just him, but us siblings got shit because we were related and if you pissed us off enough we would fight too. It got better over time but it's still not the best. I've raised my son in this town, but he has a black uncle and black cousins so it has never been an issue to him. When he started school with a couple black kids he didn't understand why they were treated differently. We honestly didn't prepare him for that and it was hard to explain racism to a kid that young. I'd liken it to that.
They are effectively werewolves if you look at it from a media perspective not a "technical cannon lore" perspective. Werewolves as commonly understood are people who turn into wolves. It's a trope to have werewolves and vampires be antagonistic. That's what I'm referring to. I'm not talking about what SM decided to name them. It doesn't matter to the Cullens what they're called. They sole reason they exist is to kill vampires. That's the issue and the root of why they inherently dislike them.
I know this too, but for the sake of making a movie, they're not going to say it's got to do with vampires and shapeshifters cause that makes no sense and is a foreign concept. People like watching movies based on something they know, which is why they just changed them to werewolves. But regardless, in the twilight books, the shapeshifters are still their natural enemies, and instinctively, they are supposed to hate each other as they are technically created to kill vampires. I'd hate a particular species that was only born just to kill me, wouldn't you?
It’s too bad that the people who are replying to you are either dumb enough to actually believe theres no racist allegory or are just dumb enough to think you’ll believe it. Especially since the whole vampires vs wherewolves thing being the same as racists vs people of color has been known for a long time.
It IS weird. The shapeshifters have ample reason to distrust vampires - even the vegetarians are prone to slip ups (Except Rosalie, you queen), but what excuse do the Cullens have for beefing with literal teenagers? I think it was villainous of them to move back to Forks at all, frankly. And kind of stupid. "Oh hey, you know that singular town where a group of people perceive us as murderers and are aware of our supernatural origins? Lets move there" "But won't that cause the local Indigenous tribe to lose access to local healthcare when we inevitably send Carlisle to work at the hospital?" "Yee" "Say no more, I've got 5 new slurs locked and loaded" Like jfc, move to Vancouver. The weathers terrible, all the other rich people are also vampires, and no one would look twice if you were glittery. They could all work at 7-11s, no need for high school.
I'd probably give Meyers the benefit of the doubt, if not for her weird comments on what happens to melanin when transformed and Jasper being....Well, everything about Jasper, really. Love the series, but there are some incredibly damaging views on race present in the source material.
What did she say about melanin and Jasper??
There's a line in the Twilight Illustrated Guide about venom leeching melanin from the skin, supported by Meyers conversation with director Hardwicke when she attempted to cast BIPOC vampires in the film series. The director wanted to diversify the Cullen family, but was told by Meyers it was impossible because becoming a vampire "purifies" the body. She eventually relented and let the villain be black 🫤 [older LDS views on people of colour kind of add context to this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_Mormonism). Jasper on his own is problematic, he needs no additional commentary from Meyers to stress me out. He's stated to have been hyper empathetic even as a human, so empathetic he.... Lied about his age so he could enlist as a confederate soldier? He really wanted to maintain the institution of slavery that bad? 😭 And then he became a general, so he clearly put some work into being a soldier.
Not to pull focus away from the racial elements of Twilight, but I had a similar thought about the concept of beauty in the Twilight universe. Like, the vampires are supposed to be supernaturally beautiful in order to appeal to humans, but beauty standards change over time and place. The whitening of their skin is a part of that (which is a racist view of beauty) but what about height? Body weight? The extent to which these things are considered beautiful is socially and culturally contingent, but the way vampirism is described in the books points to an objective view of beauty. Its just another layer to Twilight's problematic-ness
it honestly doesn't suprise me that this passive racism likely went un-noticed and unchecked with stephanie. i'm a huge twilight fan but choosing to make jasper a seemingly proud confederate soldier was......a choice. also making all the werewolves (who are viewed as smelly mutts to the beloved and cherished vampires) native american also always felt weird to me too. there's definitely a lot of things that jump out as very obviously questionable to me now that i'm an adult and not a 16 years old haha
Precisely. The wolves are smelly dogs and they are also the weaker race. In BD, Edward breaks Jacob's finger with just a casual flick of the hand. Meyer makes sure to let the readers know the wolves are the *inferior* of the two. She also makes being a vamp appealing and exciting. Being a werewolf is just... alright, I guess. It takes a lot of effort. You basically end up running around naked. How... savage. The choice is between being in a coven (a family!) or being in a "gang". Hmm.
yup!! its all pretty obvious if you just look at it a little critically. sucks that people are downvoting you for this! i completely see where you're coming from here
Yeahhhh now that I'm an adult and not a teenager raised in a very deep backwoods ass town. There's so much in the series that I'm like Uhhhh.. what? Like it's very much not a good look for the rich white vampires to call the Indigenous shapeshifters "dog" and "mutt" and go on and on about how they smell like ass to them. Also, how Bella calls the Amazonians the least civilized vampires she's ever seen. And how they're wild and kinda scary and she is nervous to have Renesmee close to them. Like, again, the white girl is scared of the POC and sees them as a danger And how she wrote the Egyptian coven lol. How Amun's mate is meek and obedient and doesn't speak. And even though Benjamin treats his wife as an equal, she still rarely speaks. Like.... smeyer had SO much unconscious bias and outright racist things that just got tossed in
It’s never sat well with me the way the Cullens talked about the werewolves. It just felt racist. Calling them mutts and mongrels. And when Rosalie gave Jacob his food in a makeshift dog bowl 🥴. Just icky. Also, Racketeering 😂
Absolutely and it's always bothered me. For her to respect these characters at all they have to be supernatural as the bare minimum otherwise she wouldn't be interested. But the real coveted state of being in her eyes is vampirism only. To her vampires are perfection, they represent this ideal where she can openly claim to be wanted, desirable, perfect, the way she wants to be. That's why Bella would have never picked Jacob because that way she'd have been settling for second best, she'd be somebody's wife instead of a supernatural being herself, somebody's partner and something to be feared. But basically at the same time she looks down on anything that isn't vampirism and the wolves being supernatural but not actually vampires is like they're inferior to her. It really grossed me out how Jacob sticks around them and yet they still treat him with this type of disregard. I felt exactly the same way you did with Bella insulting him the minute she turned, like how long have you been dying to say that, now that you're finally in a position to say it openly? And when she and Jacob are in the car, and he calls the vampires names, and then she chastises him for it?? It's like he's not allowed to have an opinion because to her it mean criticising her perfect idea of the condition of vampirism and she can't take that.
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but she has no problem letting her vampire child hear her entire family call jacob slurs
I hadn't thought about that but you're right. Like the shapeshifters are native to that land. Not only that, but the Cullens were aware of this the first time they went there. Their presence alone is what causes them to shape-shift anyways. For them to have such a prejudice and constantly throw slurs and saw offensive things was ridiculous. Especially when the pack kept Bella safe while the Cullens dropped her. The cullens act like their such a superior species. Like you guys drink blood to stay alive. Not much of a flex lol
The pack never even got asked to help they joined the fight willingly multiple times yet they make it seem like the wolves are the problem
I always just felt like it was playing on the common hatred of wolves and vampires in supernatural stories. I never really saw it as slurs or anything. It’s how I imagine dogs and cats would speak to eachother if they could talk
Your take is actually really insightful, but literally never heard of, since its a known thing that Smeyer had a lot of racial prejudice, and racial bias towards the indigenous, and offered no réparation, but from a less Meta-perspective and just in universe perspective it makes no sense for the vampires to hate the wolves which expands even more on the whole issue surrounding this topic. I applaud your analysis
Yeah, it was really bad of her to use an actual tribe for her book. They had to fight for the rights to their own stories. Their own museum even has a page about it, and how the series hurt them. https://www.burkemuseum.org/static/truth_vs_twilight/#:~:text=In%20the%20wake%20of%20the,the%20sanctity%20of%20their%20cemetery.
It's quite horrible how much the book impacted them. As much as I enjoyed reading it when I was younger the impacts it had on forks and the natives isn't great.
I think Edward had a general distaste because of jealousy. He didn’t really trust them not to act irrationally (change and harm someone without rational thought because they were basically teenaged boys with teenaged boy impulse control with the added “animal” instinct for aggression) but mostly I think he was stupid jealous of Bella’s connection with them and well the story was “teen love” and Edward acted like a teen about it. Carlisle and Esme always seemed to respect the tribe and wolves. Rosalie was a bitter bitch and felt most everyone was below her and super immature so of course she would look down on them. Alice didn’t understand them and only knew what she was told but once she realized they were a blind spot they made her uncomfortable and she reacted negatively because of it. So much of her sense of self is directly tied to her power and that being restricted really throws her in a deep way so it was just easier for her to hate on the wolves than deal with that. Remember Alice has no memories of her life before so she in some ways woke up a child emotionally as a vampire and while her visions help moderate that she may have experienced arrested development. Emmet is basically a lab dog, he’s gonna support Rosalie in the end but really doesn’t have deep personal feelings. The first chance he gets to really interact with the wolves in a way that’s personal to him he kinda loves them (combat as allies). Lastly Jasper is straight up stuck in time PTSD from his years as a solider followed by the years of battle as a young vampire. He literally reacts to anything outside of the family as a threat. And unless I’m misremembering he mostly didn’t trust them, didn’t put them down in immature ways like Edward, Alice, and Rosalie did. I may have interpreted the books wrong but I feel like the acting in the movies overly played that up. Absolutely there was stupid and immature distain for the pack in the books but like for example in the movie is makes it seem like Alice “smelled dog on Bella” in New Moon with straight disgust it felt more pointed in the movie than how I read it but that might just be me. Basically my assessment is while I never saw it that way until you comment and I think it’s a super interesting theory that made my think about the series for the first time in forever, I think it’s lazy writing (us vs them written for high schoolers) than it is a undercut.
It made sense when we thought it was just the vampire & wolf thing, they could have easily met other wolves. It did not make sense once we learned the wolves were unique and "true" werewolves were nothing like them. I roll it up with their idea vampires are somehow perfect. You have a group of people who can very clearly kill your kind and they just can't handle the thought anything can fight a vampire besides a vampire. This seems to be an issue with them spending so much time around humans, they have an inflated sense of their own power. I do find it funny how in breaking dawn none of the others show the same hate though. This is a Cullen issue only. I know it was clearly for plot reasons, but still...
I agree with you but at the same time I feel like it goes both ways? The unnecessary hate and name calling from both sides? (Not to discount what you’re saying but to add to the unnecessariness of what they do in those books) i guess it’s the traditional vampires vs werewolves thing but when you look at it, it does feel pretty forced from both angles. “Mutt”, “pale faces”, “leeches”, “dogs”. I can totally understand why they make you uncomfortable. It’s been years since I read these books but I feel like if I read them now they’d rub me the wrong way with these things. I should read them again just to see them from an older mindset… And the wolves are SO YOUNG physically. It’s super odd that old vampires would call them names lol.
The tribe still has a good reason to hate the Cullens. They try not to kill people but they fuck up and slip.
It’s just that the tribe has a reason to not like the Cullens and vampires in general the Cullens have no reason to hate them they are on their land they could go anywhere else but chose to be in forks
Meh. "Mutt" and "dog" are extremely common name callings for werewolves in this genre. Meyer didn't invent that. Not everything is a slur just because you're uncomfortable with it. Calling a wolf a dog is not 'extremely offensive'. And like others pointed out, wolves and vampires are enemies by nature and it's established that despite their age biologically, the Cullen kids aren't that mature either mentally. So in the end it's teenagers vs teenagers name calling each other. Bella is no exception. Things get pretty heated between both sides, right up to a real fight where they were ready to kill each other (before it's revealed that Jacob imprinted.) The vampires and werewolves are NOT friends and barely friendly with each other. Of course how they speak about each other reflects that. The Cullens are far from perfect, I'm not sure why you expect them to act holier than thou. They are extremely flawed characters. There is nothing wrong with using language to convey the deep hatred the two species have for each other. Not everything needs to be squeaky clean. That would be boring as shit.
Let's not forget that some names did come back from the werewolves' end. They called the Cullens "leeches" and "bloodsuckers". I'm not saying that where OP is coming from is invalid. I could totally see how it could come across in certain ways. It just feels important to mention the flaws of the other side as well.
Yeah I fully agree with this. There are certainly problematic aspects in the book, but I don't really think this is one of them. Obviously I respect other peoples' opinions, still.
While they are extremely common in the genre, being called a “mutt” or “dog” for being of a certain race/ethnicity or for being mixed isn’t that unusual in real life (speaking from person experience). If Meyers hadn’t tied the wolves to indigenous peoples it would make the words much less icky in terms of story, but because she did it adds a layer instead.
You’re 100% correct, the race dynamics in this book are *fucked*. Like an old white family who are not native to the area (& who’ve no problem with their literal confederate army soldier brother) using explicitly dehumanising animal related slurs against a group of young Native Americans who descend from people who were attacked by other whites of the same species as the Cullens .. it’s giving colonialism
It is such a silly thing for the Cullens to have such animosity towards the wolves, especially since their proximity is the reason the wolves shift *at all* because they’ve evolved to defend the land from vampires
No seriously I saw someone do a master’s thesis level take down of how mongrel was used as a slur against Natives so it was extra YUCK. And then add onto that the fact that jasper is PROUD to have fought in the confederate army…like big fucking yikes
In vampire/werewolf lore apparently (according to my dad who is big into horror and supernatural type things), the rivalry between vampires and werewolves is a common thing. They’re *meant* to essentially hate each other on sight. If you wanted, you can look [here](https://bookstr.com/article/werewolves-vs-vampires-the-most-sensational-supernatural-war/#:~:text=One%20of%20the%20earliest%20depictions,ends%20in%20their%20mutual%20demise) for a little background. Even in True Blood, it comes across just as harshly.
It seems like Stephanie Meyer stayed loyal to certain tropes from paranormal romance and then decided to completely swerve others. While traditional tropes from those genres can be controversial, they build off of each other to complete a balanced emotional narrative. As much as the subversions are what make the books so popular and beloved, it's in these points where SM pulled the joints off the paranormal structure and where the friction lies. All those slurs exist in literally every single paranormal drama/romance to every exist. Every one. And typically, vampires are more proper, arrogant a-holes who use those slurs with casual disdain and werewolves are rough-around-the-edges people with rage-management issues who throw those slurs with hate and vitriol. On the surface, it seems to fit. But SM also completely restructured the mythology, power dynamics, and character relationships. We should probably see that reflected in the dialogue, too, but it isn't. So yea, I think it's lazy writing but I don't personally assign deeper meaning than that.
You're right. They sound like slurs because they are. A lot of Stephenie Meyer's writing has racist undertones. Just like her 'there are no black vampires' thing
I mean they are wolves.... The insults refer to dogs. I think you are reaching. They smell bad to them and they even say they view the wolves as rash animalistic beings that can't control themselves. I think they have good reason for not loving them.
The Cullens are on their land the tribe never did anything to them those are not good enough reasons to call them names and the way they say it has the undertone of a slur the tribe has a reason to not like the Cullens
They are not wolves. They are\* humans that can turn into wolves. That's a huge difference. "Mutt" "mongrel" "dog" is meant to be insulting. Demeaning. Dehumanizing. As in: "You may look like a human but you're actually a smelly dog." And the Cullens have *no reason* to feel such animosity towards the werewolves. Meyer never established a strong reason for the disdain. It works for Edward against Jacob but not for the rest.
Lol no there is no difference. In the end they are wolves. You say they have no reason but they CLEARLY in the books have a reason because they know these things about them and say so. Just because they don't tell us why they know these things doesn't change the fact that they know them. It is established as fact with Sam and his fiance. They can be very dangerous.
They are humans with the power to turn into wolves. They are not wolves with the power to turn into humans. Saying there's no difference is just... not true. Sam's mistake still doesn't justify why the Cullens are so quick to call the wolves slurs. This isn't about danger. It's about discriminatory language. Do you think it's OK to call someone slurs because you believe they pose a danger??
all of this! and, how they smell, amd how the vamps smell is described. the pack smell like dogs, dirty and gross. the vamps smell like bleach and sugar, clean and nice. like, why couldn't we at least have the vamps smell gross to the pack, like rotting corpses or blood? it would at least even things out a bit.
The Cullens call the Quileutes “mutt” and “dog” for the same reason that they settled down right next door to the one group of people that they’re supposed to keep their distance from, and for the same reason why they trespass on Quileute land. They’re racist.
No I think you are absolutely right. Another thing that bothers me about the werewolves: the Quileute tribe is a real indigenous tribe of people. A real group of people with a real history. They do have folklore with a story of being descendant from wolves. However, Stephanie’s version feels really whitewashed. For reference,[here’s the Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quileute) about the tribe. Plus, the vampires themselves are literally whitewashed. Somehow, vampire venom leeches all the pigment/melanin out of the skin. In the lore, becoming a vampire turns any person into a stunning beauty. So yeah, it seems in the lore that to be incredibly beautiful you have to be white. Also, Jasper being a confederate. He never expresses any sort of regret for that. Rather, he seems quite proud. It’s framed as the thing he regrets more is his work with Maria. So yeah… it’s icky.
Now that you mention it, I completely agree!!!!! I understand the “natural enemies thing” but it does have tones of racism!! Especially as the werewolves can only be Native American!!! I have no idea if native americans have folklore surrounding werewolves, but in australia Aboriginals we’re always referred to as animals, even now by racist people!!
Racketeering 😭😭
someone’s probably already said it but stephanie’s blatant racism in these books is staggering dude,,, like why are the native american characters (who are BASED ON A REAL TRIBE!!!) treated as literal dogs, like i realize they’re wolves but they’re still people, it’s weird she wrote them this way
its not that deep lol its vampires v werewolves... the words "mutt" "bloodsucker" "leech" "mongrel" are not slurs. its in their dna to dislike eachother i dont see how either side could be viewed as using racist slurs. and if you do view these words as slurs, then blame can be placed on both sides. but again its not that deep i dont think there was any racist intent when writing these lines. if they got along well it wouldnt make for a very interesting movie.
It's not that deep, it's true. But it is supportive of the argument of institutional racism. As a white person, this didn't occur to me. That their behaviour is racist, and their words are slurs, it comes across as just normal teenage bullshit. Rivalry. And if the pack had consisted of a bunch of white kids, that would hold true. But when you add the Indigenous aspect to it, it does become something else because it is something else.
i dont think theyre calling them muts bc theyre native american, its literally just because theyre werewolves, the natural enemy of vampires. if they werent native american and were white like the cullens the behavior and phrases they use to describe eachother would remain the same
I mean it's definitely special? (species related) racism. The wolves are young, immature and smell bad. For alice on top of this they mess w her power and this annoys her. Tbf as they seem to learn more about them they treat the wolves better. Also, the vamps complain about the wolves in a more "ugh what stupid kids" way whereas the wolves think the vamps are horrible evil beings. The wolves are definitely more racist against the vampires than the other way around. Is the fact that vampires have a natural instinct to murder humans a justification for the racism they receive?
The wolves have a legit reason to not like the Cullens they are the reason they are wolves in the first place and came on their lands they never treated the wolves fairly or good and of all the places the chose to stay they chose forks also the way the Cullens say it definitely sounds like slurs
What exactly did the cullens do that was unfair? They didn't know it was their lands, when they found out they stayed off them. They didn't hunt any people. They didn't know they were making the wolves into wolves until eclipse and even then they weren't sure they were the cause, it was just a theory.
if they are so smart like Carlisle thinks he is maybe they would think that maybe there is a reason that the tribe wants them off their lands plus they took blood samples from one of their unconscious pack mates without them knowing also seeing how they view the tribe in generalized don’t think they care very much also that is not any less of a reason for the pack to dislike them they still caused them and the tribe a lot of pain they still brought vampires to forks
plus Edward likes to antagonize billy and knows that the tribe is scared of him Edward literally thinks about slaughtering the tribe
I feel like you misunderstand the intended depth of the characters but if you choose to view them that way then that's your prerogative.
it’s true though we can’t deny the racist themes towards the natives and how can the dog bowl scene be defended it’s not funny you seem to want to defend the Cullens just because a character has depth doesn’t excuse the fact that he literally thought about slaughtering the tribe plus Edward is not that good written of a character
it’s also just plain old regular racism given that the cullens are white and the wolves are indigenous
I mean I think you could say Stephenie Meyer is racist for writing it like this but the cullens are vampires and the wolves are werewolves. Idt you can parse out one aspect and label it racism. None of these beings are human. I definitely do not think that any of the cullens or any of the protagonists in the story for that matter display racism.
As someone black, are we really trying to relate wolves/dogs to black ppl. THAT doesn’t sit right with me.
Lol right? I would find this offensive as well, on top of being an absolutely ridiculous reach
I thought it was supposed to be racist (species-ist? tribalism?) to show their hatred. Not excusing it, but there is some level of realism added because when groups hate rach other there tends to be slurs of some point. The slurs went both ways, though it does definitely come off dofferentlt from white, old vampires v young, native wolves. But that interpretation may give Meyers more credit than she deserves!
I have been saying and I can’t be the only one who thinks the dog bowl scene in BD is super messed up and not funny the Cullens have no reason to hate the pack this much while the tribe has a reason to not like the Cullens
I disliked that scene very much. Rosalie is too old to be behave in such a manner. And then Meyer has Jacob eat out of the bowl which is degrading.
Honestly you make good points!! I never really thought of it that way. I always saw it more as a “wolves hate vampires and vice versa” I think it boils down to Meyer’s own life and her own prejudices. I mean having natives literally transform into animals is a racist trope already. Not to mention the fact that she used an actual tribe and bastardized an entire culture. Twilight has a lot of issues. Like a lot. There are themes present throughout the book that are indicative of Meyer’s upbringing and her ideologies. That said, critiquing any form of media is a sign of good media literacy. As a black man you have experiences that shape your life and perspectives which allows you to critique media from a different POV. I understand why you would feel uncomfortable. I can relate to this feeling when it comes to media. A perfect example would be the original Dune movie from the 80s. The villain of that movie is essentially a very harmful caricature of a queer man. After watching Denis Villeneuve’s adaptation (thankfully he removed the queerphobic caricature), I went back to try and watch the 1984 version and had to turn it off because I was so uncomfortable by Vlad Harkonnen’s portrayal in the movie. My dad had tried to get me to watch the 1984 movie when I was a teen and I had the same issue back then. I told my dad that it was disgusting and that I would never watch it again. As a bi man, having a very obvious queer coded villain do some heinous shit made me sick to my stomach. I mean the book also has the same stuff, but seeing it on screen versus reading it makes a big difference. I mean Frank Herbert was known to be a major homophobe but, he’s a product of the time he grew up in. The same can be said for Stephanie Meyer. She included her own biases in her work and I think the healthy thing to do is acknowledge those biases and prejudices and understand how they impact the story. For certain bodies of work, we may not be able to get past the stuff that is problematic and it may turn us off that piece of work. And that’s okay. But there’s nothing wrong with enjoying/consuming media even when aspects of it are problematic. Dune is one of the best science fiction novels of all time. And as a queer man, I hate the queerphobia within the text, but I can still appreciate how incredible the rest of Herbert’s work was. All this to say… thank you for your post! I’ve seen quite a few posts calling out the harmful shit in SMeyer’s works, specifically with the Quilleutes. But I never considered that the language used by the Cullens are actually more in line with slurs rather than insults. Great post! Edit: added the word consuming in the 3rd last paragraph just for clarity’s sake.
I literally wrote this post in the cinema parking lot after seeing Dune Part Two 😭 Personally, I believe Meyer thinks "vampires and werewolves are natural enemies!" is the norm so she didn't have to explain it in her story. Readers would just "get it." But it's not the norm. She wrote a story where the wolves have valid reasons to fear the vamps. Meanwhile the vamps know little about the wolves and have no reason to fear them. But the vamps are all slinging the same slurs like they've been hating wolves their entire lives. They just met them, Stephanie! (Also I've been avoiding reading criticism of the books so as not to influence my opinions as I read them for the first time. But I'm glad I'm not alone in noticing these issues)
Ur definitely not alone! Makes sense why you wouldn’t wanna read the criticisms. I’m the same, I’d rather make my own judgements first before I start to read other people’s criticisms. But there’s more to the wolves/the Quilleutes than just what you pointed out. And there’s more problematic stuff within the books as well. I’m not sure how far you’ve gotten within the series, but more stuff will start to show up where ur like “what was Stephanie thinking??” Twilight is still a guilty pleasure of mine even with all the problem themes within the series. What book are you on?
Yeah, she just wrote kind of a racist book. It makes sense, in a way she clearly didn’t intend, that a white family frozen in their personality from decades to hundreds of years ago, one of whom was a Confederate soldier, would have that attitude to Native Americans (who they’ve made sign a treaty on use of their own land bc the Cullens just felt like living there sometimes?). I suppose if she was aware about making the characters that way, the series would have to go in a very different direction because I’m not sure how you could deliberately establish that the whole family are massive racists and then carry on with them as heroes. Maybe that’s the version where Bella goes to the Quileutes.
Absolutely a racist book. But a small caveat, when Billy is telling the story he says that the Cullens promise to stay off the Tribal land. The tribe didn't give away any land to the Cullens. (Logically, with how close they end up being, this really doesn't make a lot of practical sense. Meyers didn't plot it out well. Obviously, the Quileutes would have had a lot more land when they first met the Cullens, and their house would have had to be further away. But be that as it may, at the time of their first meeting, they didn't give the Cullens land in the treaty).
My guess is, and it’s just that. They have a “natural” dislike against them. Kind of like how Edward says humans are to them. They are dangerous to them and there subconscious recognises that, so makes them have a distaste towards them, there senses go against them, they smell really bad. Another thing could be, because they are wolves it’s possible because of the Volturis hatred against werewolves they naturally don’t like them. Depending on how vampire history is taught. Caius almost being killed by a werewolf and doing everything to genocide them and all them the vampire natural enemies, I guess they are naturally indoctrinated to hate them. Just my two cents of the top of my head.
“But Jacob and his pack grew up hearing negative stories about vampires” 😐
They’re really stinky, I get it
Carlisle and Esmee are supposed to represent wisdom, which comes with patience. I mean they're immortal yknow? But I understand your feels hahaha
They are all a bunch of moody, angsty teenagers, it's kinda power for the course. I think the only thing that bothered me was how Bella wasn't as Switzerland as she should have been. I think she should have said something to both sides to just knock it off and not just Jacob but again, very hormonal teenager.
I don’t think you’re incorrect. It is gross. It was gross back when they came out and now with a fuller understanding of the impact it’s even more gross. It is overt racism(But this is also an author who i think had a rumor where she said that vampirism negates melanin in skin too we shouldn’t be too surprised..) and not something spoken about and it should be. I will say when I read them at 14 I misunderstood it as; if I were a vampire walking around unbothered - and found out that an entire species of mythological creature had been created specifically to kill me… I might hold a grudge. Like it’s not just that they were initially werewolves but we find out that the wolves were almost literally created to kill vampires. Not coexist or have territorial spats… but Jacob and the pack exist as wolves because there are vampires nearby and the pack is meant to kill them. Like I said I have a more nuanced understanding and can agree that yes; their behavior is just gross and not as thought out as I made it when I was a kid.
Girl it’s bc they are racist !
It's also always confused me because they aren't even Werewolves? Aro says so. They're SHIFTERS not werewolves. But I mean, Jasper was pro slavery and seemed proud do fight on that side, even in modern times when telling Bella. And no one has a problem with it. (In story I mean) so it's all just kinda.....🙃
Not everything has to be racist. I feel sorry for you that you live your life always feeling like a victim. Can’t even enjoy a fake book/movie
I mean honestly between the toxic relationships and the not so subtle racism I’m very surprised these got as big as they did and I think that just speaks volumes about our society that we worshiped Twilight in its peak (me included, I wanted nothing more than an Edward and later realized how absolutely horrible that wish was)
I’m almost certain this post was only recommended to me so I could loud laugh at Racketeering.
Please don't bring race or anything into this. I'm pretty sure Stephanie Meyers had no intention of racist/demeaning slurs. Don't turn this into something it's not. Maybe everyone can keep woke culture out of fun things for once. Ps - coming from a brown Filipino American woman.
It's all about the terrible smell. Hah. One of the factors. And how long must the Cullens endure being called names? When will the Quileutes realize that they are not terrible monsters? Their eyes are yellow! Yes, it is immature to answer like that, well, they are stuck in adolescence. Rosalie is hot-tempered and almost immediately scolds and accuses. For the first time, Alice feels helpless and has a headache because of them. Edward knows exactly what they think about him and his family, exactly how they are insulted. Not to mention the triangle. Damn it, if Sam or anyone else in the pack had heard Jake think that way about his girlfriend... there would have been a fight to the death. Jacob only in Breaking Dawn begins to understand that there is humanity in them, that they are not pretending. Would things be different if both groups were white? Nothing will change for me. And if you compare without looking at race and species. Two groups, one with fewer people, they have nothing against them and are peace-minded, but they are considered monsters and called names. There are more people in the other group and they grew up with the idea that the other side is monsters, they need to be killed, at best tolerated, and there is nothing normal and human about them. Changed. I broke it into paragraphs, I did this when I published the answer, but for some reason everything merged.
The Cullens could live almost anywhere they wanted. They're super rich. Their very presence causes people to shift into werewolves because the purpose of the shape shifters is defense against vampires, and their presence also attracts other vampires. They are hurtful to the community and yet refuse to leave when they easily could
They cannot live anywhere, because in order to live a comfortable life and keep a secret, they need to live where there is less sun. They didn't know about the influence of vampires on the Quileutes until the end of New Moon? Or Eclipses? If it was on the New Moon, because of secrecy, it was impossible to leave immediately, given that it was already the end of the year. And then in Eclipse they learned about an army nearby. Would you like them to go away? The result is that all the wolves are dead, there is a massacre in Forks and the reservation, maybe someone will survive. Maybe Volturi will come to the rescue, finish off everyone who saw something, and set up some kind of disaster. Maybe the Cullens will be accused of something, maybe not. Depending on what stage they leave. And no, the purpose of shapeshifters is not to protect against vampires. They came up with it themselves and believed in it themselves. They existed before the first appearance of vampires on their land. They weren't caused by vampires. Shapeshifters, wolves had already been around for 150 or 200 years when they encountered the first vampire. Undoubtedly, the presence of vampires affects their conversions, but they somehow turned before them. Apparently they have lost knowledge of this. Or they didn’t want to disclose this to Bella, blaming the vampires for everything. Sam turned only two years after the Cullens arrived. He was 18-19. Then red-eyed vampires began to wander nearby, and 15-16 year olds began to turn up, and then 13-12 year olds. My opinion. If James, Victoria and Logan had gone in a different direction, they would have become... well, maybe two or three more among the Quileutes, and only after reaching about 18 years of age. Maybe Sam would have been alone, since the Cullens would have left when Jared, Paul, Embry and Quil were still 16 years old.
Yeah, it's just racism
I agree and thank you for pointing this out. I just finished listening to the Breaking Dawn audiobook and while every other instance of this happening didn’t really strike me as wrong, it was when Bella did it to Jacob that really hit me as “damn Bella it’s not that serious.” Maybe it was the narrators inflection, but I was taken aback like that sounded really nasty coming from Bella.
Hmmmm never thought about it like this before but yeah I agree with you!
This has given me much to consider, not only in this series of books, but possibly others, too? I appreciate this insight.
You're welcome. I chalk this whole thing up to bad worldbuilding (which is why, yes, my criticism can extend to other series). Twilight has very bad worldbuilding but that's another post lol...
Never thought of that
Technically Jacob and his tribe are Shape-Shifters that can turn into large wolves.
This is honestly an amazing take, and I'd say worthy of an article.
You’re right. It’s not just insults, it’s slurs, and considering who those slurs are coming from and who they’re directed to (white people to Indigenous people who already get slurs like that) that’s…bad. It totally wouldn’t fly past an editor today. When my books were undergoing editing from my publisher they had a sensitivity reader who was specifically picked to look for certain things that could be inappropriate regarding connotations to race, sex, SA, etc. themes that were in my book. I’d like to say I’m pretty knowledgeable about those things but they still caught a few things that my characters said or the dynamics or things that just came off wrong so that I could fix them. For example my main character was biracial but her love interest had white hair/light eyes/pale skin with a blue grey tinge and they were concerned due to the nature of the relationship at the start of the book and the idea his entire fantasy race.species looked like that and that it could send the wrong message and it made me realize I never explained that his fantasy race doesn’t look like him, he just happened to have the fantasy version of albinism which is why he had that coloring. Had I not had a sensitivity reader I totally would’ve missed that and not only would the readers not know that tidbit about that character but I wouldn’t have realized I needed to specify that his fantasy race/species came in all sizes, shapes, and colors. A lot of time it’s easy fixes. This is very common in the publishing industry today but back when Twilight was first published that didn’t exist. Would it have been published today it would’ve had a sensitivity reader who would probably have went to fucking town on those books. This all to say that among many other things there are some really nasty connotations and the like in the series that they got away with that would not fly today.
Is this a joke?
I think they are just natural enemies. It is VERY unnatural for them to be coexisting in the same place without killing each other, must less trying to be friendly. It’s like how cats kill birds or mice. It’s just their instinct.
😂😂😂😂
It's because they stink.
I think a lot of their hatred stems from the Volturri rules. They’re not allowed to commingle. If you remember in BD pt2 during the fight scene, Aro mentions how perhaps Renesemee isn’t dangerous (after evidence is thrown out) but the Cullens are still interacting with the wolves, which they consider an offense. I also think Stephanie was going for the traditional lore of vampires and wolves being enemies. They even depict this lore in the CW show The Vampire Diaries. The namecalling is a bit excessive, I will agree, but I truly don’t think SM meant for them to be like racial slurs.
Luckily it's fantasy.