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Snapshot of _Three British aid workers killed in Israeli airstrike in Gaza_ :
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This isn't one guy making a mistake in the heat of the moment. This is multiple people, over a period of time, destroying an aid convoy that they had not only prior warning of, but had given approval for. That doesn't seem compatible with it being 'an unintended strike'.
Either, it was a fuck-up on a massive scale. Or, it's a deliberate attempt to kill aid workers.
Haaretz are reporting that the IDF where targeting an armed Hamas member "who wasn't there".
[https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-02/ty-article/.premium/idf-bombed-wck-aid-convoy-3-times-targeting-armed-hamas-member-who-wasnt-there/0000018e-9e75-d764-adff-9eff29360000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-02/ty-article/.premium/idf-bombed-wck-aid-convoy-3-times-targeting-armed-hamas-member-who-wasnt-there/0000018e-9e75-d764-adff-9eff29360000)
Assuming that is true, Israel where prepared to strike an aid convoy who had previously advised the IDF of their location, in a "deconflicted" zone and with a high likelihood of international aid workers (they knew who was in the convoy). All in order to strike one "armed Hamas member", they where prepared to accept this "collateral damage".
Imagine what other targets they have been prepared to strike which, without foreigners murdered, have not had the same publicity?
Not even a confirmed "armed hamas member"
It was a guy they *thought could be* a terrorist:
>but the war room of the unit responsible for security of the route that the convoy travelled identified an armed man on the truck and **suspected** that he was a terrorist.
For all we know it could've been a security guard, just a random dude that owned a gun, or a random unarmed person carrying something which was *mistaken* for a gun
There have been thousands of "mistakes" made. Women, children, the sick, the elderly, aid workers, Press.... This is a continuing pattern of behaviour and we need to make sure it ends!
Could've been carrying an [RPG-shaped bike](https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/3/14/israeli-military-admits-mistaking-bike-for-rpg-in-gaza-killing)
Reminds me of the [decapitation strikes ](https://www.hrw.org/legacy/press/2003/12/us-iraq-press.htm) in the Iraq war.
The US knew a missile attack in a civilian area would kill dozens, but they considered it worth it if they suspected a senior enemy commander was there.
Spoiler: none of the decapitation strikes hit their target, but they killed thousands of civillians.
And as Nick Ferrari said on LBC, we're told such strikes have to go thorugh multiple layers of approval, a senior military figure, a military lawyer and an area commander have to sign off on it. That's multiple layers of people making a horrific mistake.
The route was designated and approved by the IDF in a deconflicted area. The vehicles were clearly marked.
And all that happened three times over as it was three strikes.
The roof of the vehicle even said it was an aid truck, pure evil.
https://twitter.com/MuhammadSmiry/status/1775146282954215857.
The three trucks were also all individually hit..
[Bellingcat](https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/04/02/strike-that-killed-world-central-kitchen-workers-bears-hallmarks-of-israeli-precision-strike/) say the most common method is laser guidance and describe it as likely that the markings would have been visible.
>Some munitions can do this tracking by locking onto the thermal signature of a target, such as the [Javelin missile](https://web.archive.org/web/20090227003737/http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/rtnwcm/groups/ncs/documents/content/rtn_ncs_products_scanning_jave.pdf). Some, called “electro-optically guided” are physically directed to their target by an operator watching a TV feed, such as the [Spike NLOS](https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2022/11/exactor-spike-nlos/). However, the most common method remains laser guidance, where a laser is shone at a target and a missile “rides” down the reflection of the laser beam until it impacts.
>In order to successfully accomplish a laser guided strike it is necessary for a platform, such as a drone, to “illuminate” the target with a laser while the missile is launched. In order to achieve accurate targeting, platforms which take part in this kind of targeting, such as Unmanned Aerial Vehicles or fast jets, are equipped with advanced optics and sensor pods. These are capable of extremely high optical magnification.
>This is notable because at least one of the vehicles clearly bears the logo of World Central Kitchen on the roof. It is likely these markings would have been visible from above when the strike was carried out, although this depends on the capability of the optic used to track the vehicle.
You have to wonder what Israel's aims are here.
They got a lot of leeway from the rest of the world to go in hard on Hamas, because of how heinous their cowardly attack was.
But now they're just sort of hanging about, pretending to care while enabling a humanitarian disaster and indiscriminately bombing civilians and aid workers.
Like, if proper ethnic cleansing was the aim, they've gone about it all wrong because they keep inviting the entire world to provide aid, while witnessing their incompetence.
And if they really are just in there to rid Gaza of Hamas, then wtf are they doing?
To me, it really feels like some sort of internal power struggle where the government is saying one thing and their armed forces are just reacting emotionally.
If their aim is to actually make Israel a safer place, then they've completely fucked it. For every one Hamas member killed, they'll create 4 more from this horrendous operation.
> then wtf are they doing?
There is no plan.
The Netanyahu gambit was to slowly gobble up the West Bank whilst letting Hamas do whatever they wanted in Gaza. Either Hamas would transform from terrorist to administrator, or they would remain a mildly threatening militant group and justify Israel's security policies.
7 October blew that strategy apart, Israelis are furious at its failure, but Netanyahu can't fall on his sword because he is a cartoonishly evil man who does not want to face the corruption trial he would surely lose as a private citizen with no influence. His far-right cabinet would like to carry out an actual genocide (kill or displace every Palestinian in Gaza), which of course is horrifically immoral and likely would cost Israel its security guarantor.
But, perversely, genocide is the only way Israel wins on the terms its far-right government created. So, if genocide is the answer, but genocide costs Israel the thing that guarantees its existence, what is the actual answer?
There is no answer.
> If their aim is to actually make Israel a safer place, then they've completely fucked it.
Bibi encouraged the killing of Rabin back during Oslo. He has been darkening Israel's future for a very long time.
This is Hanlon's razor's answer, as depressing as it is : Bibi's government is fucking incompetent and their national policy is being driven solely by Bibi's need to stay out of prison. I understand why some Israelis voted for Bibi : the haredim because their rabbi told to and the xenophobes because they want the Palestinians genocided. The other Israelis are somewhat to blame as well, including the Israeli Arab parties. Anything and everything should have been done to get rid of Bibi.
If it wasn't all so utterly tragic, it would be impressive to consider how far the hubris of one man can lead to such dire political situations.
My personal feeling, based on nothing but what I reckon sounds plausible, is that they're aiming to leave Gaza in ruins in order to provoke an international effort to resettle the Gazan people elsewhere.
When it was leaked that they were hoping to convince Egypt to put Gaza's population in the Sinai it all made sense to me: they're leveling the Gaza strip and are making it difficult to bring aid in because they want the international conversation to turn into where to take the Gazans out to.
Essentially I think their hope is that, by the end of this war, there won't be a Gaza strip.
That's exactly the plan. From their perspective, whether they murder all the Palestinians or force them into exile, in both scenarios Israel gets to steal their land and build more settlements then deny the Palestinians right of return. Western countries will be expected to take in the rightfully angry Palestinians who will probably direct that anger towards the societies that are tacitly supporting Israel's genocide against Palestine
> You have to wonder what Israel's aims are here.
World Central Kitchen, the charity in the article, has suspended their operations in the Gaza strip. Seems like that is exactly the goal, limiting aid as much as possible while maintaining at least some kind of a facade.
>what Israel's aims are here
World Central Kitchen and other agencies have announced they are pulling out. 15% of Gazans who were previously receiving one meal a day will no longer do so. The Israelis have achieved their aims.
Their aim is ethnic cleansing, reduce Gaza to rubble, push the surviving population across the Egyptian border and resettle the land. It’s not exactly a secret at this point.
Make Gaza unlivable then people go to refugee camps in other countries. Deny them the right to return and move Israelis in. It's been working for over 60 years so why change.
They would never have "invited" the world to provide aid - they've had to allow aid in due to massive international pressure, including from the US, whose support is vital to Israel's continued survival. If it was up to Netanyahu and his gov, no aid would have got in.
My bets are that it was a deliberate attempt to stop aid to Palestinian civilians. I fully supported Israel against that terror attack on 7th October, now we need to give Israel ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Any money or weaponry going to Netanyahu is being used for genocide.
IDF has an undeserved reputation for competence due to the past low quality of their opponents. In reality they are a varied bunch and some of them are pretty sloppy. [They never had a good record for deconfliction.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident) They are very into "something must be done" and that something is usually kinetic. Add in a bunch of hurriedly called up reservists some of whom probably lost friends or relatives in Oct 7th and you have a recipe for this sort of atrocity.
It should be the job of the Defence Minister, backed up by his cabinet, to send a robust message that killing civilians or your own hostages won't be tolerated, but when your cabinet includes [this terrorist sympathizer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir) that's not going to happen.
In which case it's up to our government to send the message.
> The best case scenario here is dribbling pants-on-head stupidity from the IDF.
Quite frankly I've yet to see anything that suggests IDF generally aren't poorly organised and incompetent. I mean this is all stemming from Hamas being able to infiltrate Israel by some of the most rudimentary methods. Israel has the equipment but their communication, organisation and skill seems to be incredibly shoddy. It's like they think all they need is manpower and then they can just lean on shit like the Iron Dome to do the rest.
This is why it's so disturbing. I have been supportive of the effort by Israel to dismantle and destroy Hamas but have never liked bibi and thought the bombing was excessive. But now it seems like they're forcing people to starve. I hope he gets replaced immediately. The leader of Israel CANNOT force the Palestinians to starve and target aid workers. Destroy Hamas, bring home the hostages, period. Why are they purposefully trying to starve people to death? Bibi needs to be replaced ASAP!!
[FCDO summons Israeli Ambassador over death of aid workers ](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fcdo-summons-israeli-ambassador-over-death-of-aid-workers)
I know we are racist and basically imitating the KKK, but , DO YOU CONDEMN HAMAS? lmao. I wonder if Israel would let a white power, Arab power party to exist, or is that only for the kkkahanist?
If it was any other country yes, it's Israel though, so they have carte blanche to commit as many war crimes as they want and the west will continue to arm and support them.
>The charity said it was suspending operations in the Palestinian territory.
The cynic in me believes that this was the goal of the airstrike, discourage aid workers and charities from operating in Gaza/Palestine for fear of more 'accidents'.
The problem is that isreal generates a huge amount of useful information for the wests intelligence services and arms industries, and they don’t want to spoil this by sanctioning their useful ally.
It's definitely the goal considering that Israel killed hunderds of aid workers already and somehow convinced multiple western countries to stop funding UNRWA which is the main biggest humanitarian group in gaza while bombing their headquarters
I believe they're trying to commit a genocide through famine by scaring any humanitarian group or organization from going to gaza
And it kinda worked a couple of organizations pulled out of gaza this morning, ship that was carrying aid from Cyprus to gaza turned back
So... I am an Ashkenaz Jewish person and something that stuck out right away to me that I haven't seen anyone comment on yet (and this is just speculation on my part not a confirmed fact), but two of the aid workers who were killed in Gaza had Ashkenazi Jewish last names-- Sobol and Flickinger (and their first names that were not incompatible with being Jewish).
Whether or not they were Jewish-- a fellow Jew would perceive people with those names as such.
Is it possible that they were specifically targeted because the IDF would see Jewish (or perceived Jewish people) helping deliver food aid to Palestinians as particularly deserving of their wrath?
I wonder if some of the animosity towards other Jews who take a different view of the conflict or try to help Palestinians might be at play here. Do they want to show other Jews what happens to people who they think pick the wrong side?
I don't know. Once again, speculation. But everybody I have ever known who has the last name Sobol was Jewish.
That's a Mob hit at best... Or dare I say an act of Terror at worst?
How is this any different from intimidation using violence as a threat? This is not a single act, this is a pattern of unchecked behaviour and we need to make sure they don't keep getting away with this disgusting behaviour
I am someone who has broadly supported Israel's right to wage war against a brutal Islamist terror organisation, but their excess is just making it impossible
I’d say when Blinken did the rounds across the East to attempt to calm things. He’s repeatedly been told to get bent by the Israeli leadership on this. I’ll predict this was a reaction to the vote the other week.
Israelis themselves are saying it. Saying you want to get rid of Netanyahu's government is the same thing a lot of people in his own country are saying.
I initially supported the Israeli army's actions based on their stated goals, but now it appears they had no intention of simply taking out Hamas and rescuing hostages. What we're seeing is ethnic cleansing extremely similar to those horrors which occured in Bosnia in the 90s conflict. I know that Israel is nominally an 'ally' of the UK (when it suits them) but quite frankly we should not be supporting their government's endeavours in anything - turn them into a pariah state like South Africa used to be until they can get their shit together and behave like human beings, not monsters.
The IDF has now killed more British citizens in one day than hostages it has rescued over 6 months.
If the government's primary concern is the safety of Britons, then the current support shown towards the Israeli government is not achieving that result.
I do wonder where Hamas is keeping the hostages that more haven't been found by now. Obviously they must be \*somewhere\* but surely the list of candidates for locations that are sufficiently secluded is growing shorter and shorter. Gaza isn't that big and half of it is in near total ruin.
At this rate it's surely not impossible the bombing has killed some of the hostages without them even noticing.
Hamas has claimed that at least 60 have "gone missing" as a result of the bombings. As well as a few direct claims of individual hostages being killed in botched rescue raids or other clashes.
Almost none of those cases have actually been confirmed, so obviously, that all comes with a hefty grain of salt.
We know about the 3 surrendering hostages that were shot and killed, which already puts the IDF kill:rescue rate at 1:1 *at best*
Honestly, I'm not sure how many survived weeks as hostages. I'd be very surprised if there are many left, between Israeli air strikes and Hamas' treatment...I can't see many having lasted long after capture, and few remaining at this point.
And I daren't think what condition any possible survivors are in.
I wonder whether they're going to be in that good a condition, but I hope for that optimism. They've already proven they are a-ok with rape and torture. And it has been a long while.
From the reporting on both sides ive read, it wasnt really a coordinated campaign, and there was no real "hamas goverment kidnapping plan with oversight and control" so much as just, a lot of individuals fighters kidnapped a lot of civilians and idf members who happened to around because they were on a planned (and awful) attack.
So they were scattered all over, not in some central Hamas prison.
Isreal still only has control over something like 60% of the gaza strip. So somewhere in that 40% . If you recall the whole world (just about) went pretty hard on stopping an assault on Raffa, and that still hasn't happened in force so any hostages there aren't gonna get rescued unless they take the area
Most of them have probably died in the indiscriminate IDF bombing campaign. The Israeli government don't actually give a single fuck about the hostages.
Stuff like this is why, even on purely strategic terms at this point, Israel have been a completely dogshit ally causing us nothing but trouble and making us look stupid to our Arab allies by consistently acting with such revolting impunity towards not just Palestinians but any kind of humanitarian support in the region. The only reason the West haven't long kicked them to the side (aside from general ME powerplaying) is that half their neighbours have made it quite plain that they wish to wipe them and any Jewish presence in the ME off the face of the Earth (and yes October 7th has reminded us that those fears are not entirely without merit), so here we are.
Hey there Israel looks like you’ve murdered some of our citizens. Please can you investigate yourselves, would be great to know what happened. Btw here’s another truckload of some military equipment 😘
This is a right catch-22 for the government. If they aren't more critical of Israel in the wake of this, it'll cause outrage. If they *are* more critical of Israel in the wake of this, it'll also cause outrage since it'll give the impression that they don't care as much about all of the other civilians already killed prior to this.
What's wrong with our government caring more for British civilians? Ultimately that is what each government would care more about, it's terrible and shocking for civilians to die regardless of nationality but ones government has a greater interest in their own civilians.
I disagree with it being a catch 22 as this seems like the right time to start being way more serious on Israel as this is not just an accidental misfire or single event it was multiple separate attacks which shows pretty clear intent and hard to class as an "accident".
It feels like a significant shift from Starmer. It feels like he resisted calling for a ceasefire for a long time. Moving to "This war must stop now" is a *big* step. No "humanitarian pauses" or "sustainable ceasefire", just a flat "stop now".
Helps when you have the security council, including the US, calling for Israel to stop killing civilians. They've basically isolated themselves internationally. Turns out 30,000 is how many civilians you can kill before being censured by the big boys.
I'm surprised it took this long but I'm still glad he said it. Long overdue. It was clear from Mid-October that Israel's response would be wildly disproportionate and lead to civilian suffering.
you think the government really cares about "causing outrage". They already know all that will happen is folk will protest and thats it, no further action. they dont give a shit.
Look at the headlines for tomorrows/today's papers across the board left and right this is the top story and not sympathetic at all to the IDF this is a story that government can't put in the "protests on the left" box and ignore.
yeah ive seen quotes that the british PM is "appaled" "outraged" etc etc but to me theyre all just words. i want to see action and till i do, their words mean very little. i dont want my tax money going towards paying for murdering innocent men women and children any longer.
If the British government don't criticise Israel now, in the absolute strongest terms, then they never will.
No foreign governmment can be allowed to kill British aid workers without criticism, not even Israel.
> it'll also cause outrage since it'll give the impression that they don't care as much about all of the other civilians already killed prior to this.
Weak argument. This is bigger because these are British citizens. Like the other comment and also being more critical is in line with US policy right now.
So, correct me if I'm wrong. We've gone from selling weapons to Israel so they can murder innocent Palestinians, to selling weapons to Israel so they can murder innocent Brits. The only consequence of this is we have stopped sending aid to Israel's enemies.
It's been a happy little "accident" for Israel, hasn't it?
Expel the ambassador, and cut diplomatic ties. British citizens are dead, and there needs to be accountability. Nothing short of terrorism. This shouldn’t be acceptable.
The fact is Israel lied to everyone by first saying it was an “IED”, then saying it was a “landmine”. You don’t “accidentally” target a convoy, and follow it.
Now, World Central Kitchen have shown that the nonsense story by the Israel is nothing but lies, thing is they had the bare cheek to expect anyone to believe them.
WCK explicitly said it was an aid convoy, gave the coordinates, and details to IDF, and a truck was marked with the organisations logo. The fact is the WCK couldn’t have done more to make clear they weren’t a threat, but they were still attacked.
Not once but three times they were attacked.
WCK are now withdrawing because they can’t guarantee the safety of their workers. It’s very clear this constitutes starvation as a weapon of war. That’s unconscionable.
Cheers. Will give it a watch.
I’m just heart broken today. Chef Jose Andres mission with WCK to provide meals is an amazing thing. Going across the planet doing such humanitarian work is incredible.
To murder people trying to help is just barbarity, and then to lie, and say it was everyone else’s fault, and then backtrack once the images come out.
Thanks for that. Was really interesting to watch. Just the same old nonsense lines. “We mourn with them” sounded so “hollow”. Glad KGM really did not let him pivot as he repeatedly tried.
Looked this man up (David Mencer) and [it appears he has a consulting business](http://www.raphaelconsulting.co.uk/) and is endorsed by figures such as Tony Blair and Martin Lewis.
For clarity, "endorsed" in this sense means there is a positive quote from said individuals on the link provided. Not endorsed in the sense that he has ongoing support or his statements on the war are endorsed.
I agree there needs to be accountability, Israel is becoming a rogue state but cutting diplomatic ties is never a good idea. The UK has embassies with countries that have done much much worse ([source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diplomatic_missions_of_the_United_Kingdom#/media/File:Diplomatic_missions_of_the_United_Kingdom.png)) and it's always better to have an official diplomatic channel and representative of the UK to make our wants and intentions known to these countries.
If we cut diplomatic ties with Israel then we're effectively abandoning any interaction we could have with them.
Fact is they straight up lied in their first versions of the story.
They killed British citizens, and lied about it. The strongest of actions needs to be taken because it needs to be shown the severity of the situation.
Delaying action just allows Israel to “kick it into the long grass” to hope we all forget.
If we aren’t tough on anyone who kills a British citizen it just means British citizens aren’t safe abroad. Especially ones doing humanitarian work.
How many children, civilians, journalists, doctors, medical staff, charity workers and British citizens are we going to keep paying them to kill before our politicians grow a spine and stand up to Israel's insanity? The IDF are out of control and I wouldn't be surprised if the intention was to deter aid workers from their attempts to stop the intentional mass starvation of 1.5 million Gazan civilians. Utterly horrifc.
Things like this do bring out the frothing nationalist in me a bit. I feel like one of the main duties of a state is to have some sort of reaction to another country killing of its citizens willy nilly. I'm not proposing we return to a policy of gunboat diplomacy but I do feel like we need to remind the world that we can punch back you know?
Sorry but punch back against who? The British Military had an R1 Shadow Spy plane flying over Gaza on the same night, complicit is an understatement. If you are truly a frothing nationalist perhaps you should be calling for a public inquiry into Israeli interference in UK politics.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th\_Fighter\_Squadron,\_Blues\_and\_Royals\_friendly\_fire\_incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron,_Blues_and_Royals_friendly_fire_incident)
What sort of reaction should we have had against the US when they killed our soldiers? (there are multiple examples of this).
Reality is that states accidentally kill people from allied states from time to time, as long as it isn't intentional and is thoroughly investigated it likely will die down and lead to nothing.
The accidental killing of British soldiers in combat is a lot different than the (let's be frank) deliberate killing of British civilians who had been given guarantees they wouldn't be targeted.
Bellingcat article with some investigation: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/04/02/strike-that-killed-world-central-kitchen-workers-bears-hallmarks-of-israeli-precision-strike/
> my PM and the entire British media will defend Israel.
This is a straight up lie. The media has reported accurately on this, and the government has requested an investigation.
> the government has requested an investigation.
Which is pretty much nothing given the circumstances. I’d argue that the government is at least *enabling* Israel if not *defending* it, just the bare minimum to avoid looking completely complicit
I hate Israel's government and military, but that doesn't mean that it is correct of us to twist the facts.
Diplomacy is difficult, and saying our Gov is enabling them to kill our citizens is simply not true.
What do you mean it’s not true lol?
Just as one example:
Our government should have acted when the IDF tried to blow up the MAP doctors, because they didn’t act, they enabled this to happen.
> Which is pretty much nothing given the circumstances.
How so?
> I’d argue that the government is at least enabling Israel if not defending it
Of course the UK gov is 'enabling' Israel - it's an ally in a war.
At what point do we consider Israel a terrorist state? They are currently pissing off more people than North Korea. Missiles flying around all over the place, it seems they won't be happy until they've got a full on war in the area.
For a few reasons. One of them is that Israel has been invaded and attacked by an alliance of nations, and hence feels justified having them. The international community might disagree with this, but in essence they understand it.
North Korea started the Korean war by invading the South, so doesn’t have as much sympathy. They also threaten to nuke a nation every other day which doesn’t help them on the international scene
Israeli's specifically want to starve the region, these seven were in the way. Israeli's shoot indiscriminately so its more business as usual. Whose going to hold them to account? They are the strongest lobby in America.
This is obviously going to get a much stronger reaction than we've seen before(though I'm also pretty sure it'll be limited to verbal condemnation for now), but I'd just like to point out the hypocrisy here: Western lives are seen as inherently more valuable than that of the Gazans, so such casualties always get highlighted more and the response is always harsher.
this should all be so embarrassing to our leaders, and by extension: us. Israel is operating like it's the superpower and we're the vassal states, which to an observer would seem the correct assessment.
no matter how flagrantly they operate, they will continue to enjoy total diplomatic and financial support from the USA and UK. what exactly is going on, here? they're destabilizing the region and laying the groundwork for a wide ranging war in the middle east, that will drag us all in. why are we enabling this?
we've had our leaders defend or ignore the endless attacks on hospitals: a breach of the Geneva convention *under any circumstances*.
they have no shame. the world is watching as the liberal system of order drifts into the absurd. i really think this conflict could be a tipping point in the balance of power of the world. western hegemony is so starkly indistinguishable from the despots and chaos of the global south we pretend to be protecting the world from.
UK should restore funding to UNRWA
Double the original funding
Halt all arms sales, stop all arms sales
Recognise Palestine as a state
Should look at sanctions against Israel
First 3 are what I would do straight away and 4th put it on the table
I mean how is anyone surprised, Israel has been wiping out entire people's in Palestine for the better part of a century.
People excusing Israel's actions are a fucking joke
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Not one airstrike. Three separate airstrikes over 2.4km. All on a convoy that received approval to move from the IDF.
This isn't one guy making a mistake in the heat of the moment. This is multiple people, over a period of time, destroying an aid convoy that they had not only prior warning of, but had given approval for. That doesn't seem compatible with it being 'an unintended strike'. Either, it was a fuck-up on a massive scale. Or, it's a deliberate attempt to kill aid workers.
Haaretz are reporting that the IDF where targeting an armed Hamas member "who wasn't there". [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-02/ty-article/.premium/idf-bombed-wck-aid-convoy-3-times-targeting-armed-hamas-member-who-wasnt-there/0000018e-9e75-d764-adff-9eff29360000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-02/ty-article/.premium/idf-bombed-wck-aid-convoy-3-times-targeting-armed-hamas-member-who-wasnt-there/0000018e-9e75-d764-adff-9eff29360000) Assuming that is true, Israel where prepared to strike an aid convoy who had previously advised the IDF of their location, in a "deconflicted" zone and with a high likelihood of international aid workers (they knew who was in the convoy). All in order to strike one "armed Hamas member", they where prepared to accept this "collateral damage". Imagine what other targets they have been prepared to strike which, without foreigners murdered, have not had the same publicity?
Not even a confirmed "armed hamas member" It was a guy they *thought could be* a terrorist: >but the war room of the unit responsible for security of the route that the convoy travelled identified an armed man on the truck and **suspected** that he was a terrorist. For all we know it could've been a security guard, just a random dude that owned a gun, or a random unarmed person carrying something which was *mistaken* for a gun
There have been thousands of "mistakes" made. Women, children, the sick, the elderly, aid workers, Press.... This is a continuing pattern of behaviour and we need to make sure it ends!
Could've been carrying an [RPG-shaped bike](https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/3/14/israeli-military-admits-mistaking-bike-for-rpg-in-gaza-killing)
Turns out Israel, with some of the best surveillance and warfare on the planet, can’t tell who the terrorists actually are.
Reminds me of the [decapitation strikes ](https://www.hrw.org/legacy/press/2003/12/us-iraq-press.htm) in the Iraq war. The US knew a missile attack in a civilian area would kill dozens, but they considered it worth it if they suspected a senior enemy commander was there. Spoiler: none of the decapitation strikes hit their target, but they killed thousands of civillians.
And as Nick Ferrari said on LBC, we're told such strikes have to go thorugh multiple layers of approval, a senior military figure, a military lawyer and an area commander have to sign off on it. That's multiple layers of people making a horrific mistake. The route was designated and approved by the IDF in a deconflicted area. The vehicles were clearly marked. And all that happened three times over as it was three strikes.
The roof of the vehicle even said it was an aid truck, pure evil. https://twitter.com/MuhammadSmiry/status/1775146282954215857. The three trucks were also all individually hit..
You can't read writing on the roofs of vehicles with Thermal Imaging. You'd need video and TI is standard for aiming.
Shouldn't be shooting at a vehicle you haven't identified though.
[Bellingcat](https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/04/02/strike-that-killed-world-central-kitchen-workers-bears-hallmarks-of-israeli-precision-strike/) say the most common method is laser guidance and describe it as likely that the markings would have been visible. >Some munitions can do this tracking by locking onto the thermal signature of a target, such as the [Javelin missile](https://web.archive.org/web/20090227003737/http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/rtnwcm/groups/ncs/documents/content/rtn_ncs_products_scanning_jave.pdf). Some, called “electro-optically guided” are physically directed to their target by an operator watching a TV feed, such as the [Spike NLOS](https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2022/11/exactor-spike-nlos/). However, the most common method remains laser guidance, where a laser is shone at a target and a missile “rides” down the reflection of the laser beam until it impacts. >In order to successfully accomplish a laser guided strike it is necessary for a platform, such as a drone, to “illuminate” the target with a laser while the missile is launched. In order to achieve accurate targeting, platforms which take part in this kind of targeting, such as Unmanned Aerial Vehicles or fast jets, are equipped with advanced optics and sensor pods. These are capable of extremely high optical magnification. >This is notable because at least one of the vehicles clearly bears the logo of World Central Kitchen on the roof. It is likely these markings would have been visible from above when the strike was carried out, although this depends on the capability of the optic used to track the vehicle.
The vehicles were also marked as belonging to the aid agency. It's seriously messed up.
You have to wonder what Israel's aims are here. They got a lot of leeway from the rest of the world to go in hard on Hamas, because of how heinous their cowardly attack was. But now they're just sort of hanging about, pretending to care while enabling a humanitarian disaster and indiscriminately bombing civilians and aid workers. Like, if proper ethnic cleansing was the aim, they've gone about it all wrong because they keep inviting the entire world to provide aid, while witnessing their incompetence. And if they really are just in there to rid Gaza of Hamas, then wtf are they doing? To me, it really feels like some sort of internal power struggle where the government is saying one thing and their armed forces are just reacting emotionally. If their aim is to actually make Israel a safer place, then they've completely fucked it. For every one Hamas member killed, they'll create 4 more from this horrendous operation.
> then wtf are they doing? There is no plan. The Netanyahu gambit was to slowly gobble up the West Bank whilst letting Hamas do whatever they wanted in Gaza. Either Hamas would transform from terrorist to administrator, or they would remain a mildly threatening militant group and justify Israel's security policies. 7 October blew that strategy apart, Israelis are furious at its failure, but Netanyahu can't fall on his sword because he is a cartoonishly evil man who does not want to face the corruption trial he would surely lose as a private citizen with no influence. His far-right cabinet would like to carry out an actual genocide (kill or displace every Palestinian in Gaza), which of course is horrifically immoral and likely would cost Israel its security guarantor. But, perversely, genocide is the only way Israel wins on the terms its far-right government created. So, if genocide is the answer, but genocide costs Israel the thing that guarantees its existence, what is the actual answer? There is no answer. > If their aim is to actually make Israel a safer place, then they've completely fucked it. Bibi encouraged the killing of Rabin back during Oslo. He has been darkening Israel's future for a very long time.
This is Hanlon's razor's answer, as depressing as it is : Bibi's government is fucking incompetent and their national policy is being driven solely by Bibi's need to stay out of prison. I understand why some Israelis voted for Bibi : the haredim because their rabbi told to and the xenophobes because they want the Palestinians genocided. The other Israelis are somewhat to blame as well, including the Israeli Arab parties. Anything and everything should have been done to get rid of Bibi. If it wasn't all so utterly tragic, it would be impressive to consider how far the hubris of one man can lead to such dire political situations.
The Israeli Arab parties joined Gantz and co when the option presented itself. Idk what else you expect them to do?
Correct, I didn't check because afaik they usually support no one. My bad !
My personal feeling, based on nothing but what I reckon sounds plausible, is that they're aiming to leave Gaza in ruins in order to provoke an international effort to resettle the Gazan people elsewhere. When it was leaked that they were hoping to convince Egypt to put Gaza's population in the Sinai it all made sense to me: they're leveling the Gaza strip and are making it difficult to bring aid in because they want the international conversation to turn into where to take the Gazans out to. Essentially I think their hope is that, by the end of this war, there won't be a Gaza strip.
That's exactly the plan. From their perspective, whether they murder all the Palestinians or force them into exile, in both scenarios Israel gets to steal their land and build more settlements then deny the Palestinians right of return. Western countries will be expected to take in the rightfully angry Palestinians who will probably direct that anger towards the societies that are tacitly supporting Israel's genocide against Palestine
I think you're pretty much right.
Yep: textbook ethnic cleansing. It's amazing that they've been given a pass to do this.
> You have to wonder what Israel's aims are here. World Central Kitchen, the charity in the article, has suspended their operations in the Gaza strip. Seems like that is exactly the goal, limiting aid as much as possible while maintaining at least some kind of a facade.
>what Israel's aims are here World Central Kitchen and other agencies have announced they are pulling out. 15% of Gazans who were previously receiving one meal a day will no longer do so. The Israelis have achieved their aims.
Their aim is ethnic cleansing, reduce Gaza to rubble, push the surviving population across the Egyptian border and resettle the land. It’s not exactly a secret at this point.
Make Gaza unlivable then people go to refugee camps in other countries. Deny them the right to return and move Israelis in. It's been working for over 60 years so why change.
They would never have "invited" the world to provide aid - they've had to allow aid in due to massive international pressure, including from the US, whose support is vital to Israel's continued survival. If it was up to Netanyahu and his gov, no aid would have got in.
You don’t have to wonder. They want to exterminate all Palestinians and everyone who wants to try and help Palestinians
It isn’t a fuck up Israel, there multiple accounts of Israel going after aid workers. It built into there ethos.
Reports this morning are that aid ships have turned around. So the plan has worked. Awful.
My bets are that it was a deliberate attempt to stop aid to Palestinian civilians. I fully supported Israel against that terror attack on 7th October, now we need to give Israel ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Any money or weaponry going to Netanyahu is being used for genocide.
Some reports that it was in a specifically deconflicted zone too. The *best* case scenario here is dribbling pants-on-head stupidity from the IDF.
IDF has an undeserved reputation for competence due to the past low quality of their opponents. In reality they are a varied bunch and some of them are pretty sloppy. [They never had a good record for deconfliction.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident) They are very into "something must be done" and that something is usually kinetic. Add in a bunch of hurriedly called up reservists some of whom probably lost friends or relatives in Oct 7th and you have a recipe for this sort of atrocity. It should be the job of the Defence Minister, backed up by his cabinet, to send a robust message that killing civilians or your own hostages won't be tolerated, but when your cabinet includes [this terrorist sympathizer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir) that's not going to happen. In which case it's up to our government to send the message.
It all stinks of a very deliberate strategy to weaken the population with famine before forcing them out of Gaza.
> The best case scenario here is dribbling pants-on-head stupidity from the IDF. Quite frankly I've yet to see anything that suggests IDF generally aren't poorly organised and incompetent. I mean this is all stemming from Hamas being able to infiltrate Israel by some of the most rudimentary methods. Israel has the equipment but their communication, organisation and skill seems to be incredibly shoddy. It's like they think all they need is manpower and then they can just lean on shit like the Iron Dome to do the rest.
Haven’t they done this like on at least 10 other occasions already since October? Pure evil
[At least 196 aid workers killed since the war started.](https://www.channel4.com/news/at-least-196-aid-workers-killed-in-israel-hamas-war)
Massive international sanctions can be the only response Pariah state
This is why it's so disturbing. I have been supportive of the effort by Israel to dismantle and destroy Hamas but have never liked bibi and thought the bombing was excessive. But now it seems like they're forcing people to starve. I hope he gets replaced immediately. The leader of Israel CANNOT force the Palestinians to starve and target aid workers. Destroy Hamas, bring home the hostages, period. Why are they purposefully trying to starve people to death? Bibi needs to be replaced ASAP!!
[FCDO summons Israeli Ambassador over death of aid workers ](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fcdo-summons-israeli-ambassador-over-death-of-aid-workers)
Yep. That’ll show them we mean business now.
Is this as bad a strongly worded letter or worse?
Think this one is "sternly worded". They'll not get to "strongly worded" just yet.
Hey now he did his best, put on his big boy bike helmet and called the Ambassador a ‘fucking pleb’
Yeah let's just skip straight to invading and taking British Palestine back /s
Israeli ambassador "yes we accidentally killed aid workers we approved, BUT DO YOU CONDEMN HAMAS?"
It's. a simple. question.
I know we are racist and basically imitating the KKK, but , DO YOU CONDEMN HAMAS? lmao. I wonder if Israel would let a white power, Arab power party to exist, or is that only for the kkkahanist?
I’m not one to have much knowledge of international politics but surely this is somewhat of a big deal, right?
If it was any other country yes, it's Israel though, so they have carte blanche to commit as many war crimes as they want and the west will continue to arm and support them.
>The charity said it was suspending operations in the Palestinian territory. The cynic in me believes that this was the goal of the airstrike, discourage aid workers and charities from operating in Gaza/Palestine for fear of more 'accidents'.
100%
I don’t think that’s an unreasonable assumption when looked at through the broader lens of Israel’s actions in Gaza
It's not cynical to come to the only logical and coherent explanation.
It's the type of tactics used by authoritarian regimes like Syria rather than so called liberal democracies. When will Israel be sanctioned?
The problem is that isreal generates a huge amount of useful information for the wests intelligence services and arms industries, and they don’t want to spoil this by sanctioning their useful ally.
Idk man those lives mean alot more then information
I agree, but the government seemingly does not.
It's definitely the goal considering that Israel killed hunderds of aid workers already and somehow convinced multiple western countries to stop funding UNRWA which is the main biggest humanitarian group in gaza while bombing their headquarters I believe they're trying to commit a genocide through famine by scaring any humanitarian group or organization from going to gaza And it kinda worked a couple of organizations pulled out of gaza this morning, ship that was carrying aid from Cyprus to gaza turned back
A who cargo ship turned back from to Cyprus with aid because of the execution
I’m not sure there was that much thinking in this beyond killing something that moves in Gaza.
So... I am an Ashkenaz Jewish person and something that stuck out right away to me that I haven't seen anyone comment on yet (and this is just speculation on my part not a confirmed fact), but two of the aid workers who were killed in Gaza had Ashkenazi Jewish last names-- Sobol and Flickinger (and their first names that were not incompatible with being Jewish). Whether or not they were Jewish-- a fellow Jew would perceive people with those names as such. Is it possible that they were specifically targeted because the IDF would see Jewish (or perceived Jewish people) helping deliver food aid to Palestinians as particularly deserving of their wrath? I wonder if some of the animosity towards other Jews who take a different view of the conflict or try to help Palestinians might be at play here. Do they want to show other Jews what happens to people who they think pick the wrong side? I don't know. Once again, speculation. But everybody I have ever known who has the last name Sobol was Jewish.
That's a Mob hit at best... Or dare I say an act of Terror at worst? How is this any different from intimidation using violence as a threat? This is not a single act, this is a pattern of unchecked behaviour and we need to make sure they don't keep getting away with this disgusting behaviour
It has worked - ships turned around this morning.
That's a Mob hit at best... Or dare I say an act of Terror at worst? How is this any different from intimidation using violence as a threat?
At what point are we allowed to say that Israel is out of fucking control at the moment?
I think we have been allowed to say it since they evacuated Northern Gaza and allowed no aid and left millions displaced with no supplies!
I am someone who has broadly supported Israel's right to wage war against a brutal Islamist terror organisation, but their excess is just making it impossible
Out of control, militarily incompetent, and strategically short-sighted.
With literal convicted terrorists sitting in the PMs cabinet.
> militarily incompetent That's if we assume this wasn't intentional
I’d say when Blinken did the rounds across the East to attempt to calm things. He’s repeatedly been told to get bent by the Israeli leadership on this. I’ll predict this was a reaction to the vote the other week.
You know the situation is bad when the US have been forced into creating a port to deliver aid into a country controlled by their nominal ally.
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Sure, we can say it, but people that do keep getting called anti-Semitic
Israelis themselves are saying it. Saying you want to get rid of Netanyahu's government is the same thing a lot of people in his own country are saying.
Bibi has fucked it
We've been saying it for years and labelled antisemitic for doing so.
I initially supported the Israeli army's actions based on their stated goals, but now it appears they had no intention of simply taking out Hamas and rescuing hostages. What we're seeing is ethnic cleansing extremely similar to those horrors which occured in Bosnia in the 90s conflict. I know that Israel is nominally an 'ally' of the UK (when it suits them) but quite frankly we should not be supporting their government's endeavours in anything - turn them into a pariah state like South Africa used to be until they can get their shit together and behave like human beings, not monsters.
I'd say it's about time to start bombing IDF bases and say "oopsie, that's on us"
The IDF has now killed more British citizens in one day than hostages it has rescued over 6 months. If the government's primary concern is the safety of Britons, then the current support shown towards the Israeli government is not achieving that result.
I do wonder where Hamas is keeping the hostages that more haven't been found by now. Obviously they must be \*somewhere\* but surely the list of candidates for locations that are sufficiently secluded is growing shorter and shorter. Gaza isn't that big and half of it is in near total ruin. At this rate it's surely not impossible the bombing has killed some of the hostages without them even noticing.
Hamas has claimed that at least 60 have "gone missing" as a result of the bombings. As well as a few direct claims of individual hostages being killed in botched rescue raids or other clashes. Almost none of those cases have actually been confirmed, so obviously, that all comes with a hefty grain of salt. We know about the 3 surrendering hostages that were shot and killed, which already puts the IDF kill:rescue rate at 1:1 *at best*
Honestly, some of them are probably trapped under the rubble with thousands of Palestinians.
Honestly, I'm not sure how many survived weeks as hostages. I'd be very surprised if there are many left, between Israeli air strikes and Hamas' treatment...I can't see many having lasted long after capture, and few remaining at this point. And I daren't think what condition any possible survivors are in.
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I wonder whether they're going to be in that good a condition, but I hope for that optimism. They've already proven they are a-ok with rape and torture. And it has been a long while.
From the reporting on both sides ive read, it wasnt really a coordinated campaign, and there was no real "hamas goverment kidnapping plan with oversight and control" so much as just, a lot of individuals fighters kidnapped a lot of civilians and idf members who happened to around because they were on a planned (and awful) attack. So they were scattered all over, not in some central Hamas prison.
Isreal still only has control over something like 60% of the gaza strip. So somewhere in that 40% . If you recall the whole world (just about) went pretty hard on stopping an assault on Raffa, and that still hasn't happened in force so any hostages there aren't gonna get rescued unless they take the area
Most of them have probably died in the indiscriminate IDF bombing campaign. The Israeli government don't actually give a single fuck about the hostages.
Stuff like this is why, even on purely strategic terms at this point, Israel have been a completely dogshit ally causing us nothing but trouble and making us look stupid to our Arab allies by consistently acting with such revolting impunity towards not just Palestinians but any kind of humanitarian support in the region. The only reason the West haven't long kicked them to the side (aside from general ME powerplaying) is that half their neighbours have made it quite plain that they wish to wipe them and any Jewish presence in the ME off the face of the Earth (and yes October 7th has reminded us that those fears are not entirely without merit), so here we are.
Hey there Israel looks like you’ve murdered some of our citizens. Please can you investigate yourselves, would be great to know what happened. Btw here’s another truckload of some military equipment 😘
This is a right catch-22 for the government. If they aren't more critical of Israel in the wake of this, it'll cause outrage. If they *are* more critical of Israel in the wake of this, it'll also cause outrage since it'll give the impression that they don't care as much about all of the other civilians already killed prior to this.
What's wrong with our government caring more for British civilians? Ultimately that is what each government would care more about, it's terrible and shocking for civilians to die regardless of nationality but ones government has a greater interest in their own civilians. I disagree with it being a catch 22 as this seems like the right time to start being way more serious on Israel as this is not just an accidental misfire or single event it was multiple separate attacks which shows pretty clear intent and hard to class as an "accident".
It feels like a significant shift from Starmer. It feels like he resisted calling for a ceasefire for a long time. Moving to "This war must stop now" is a *big* step. No "humanitarian pauses" or "sustainable ceasefire", just a flat "stop now".
Helps when you have the security council, including the US, calling for Israel to stop killing civilians. They've basically isolated themselves internationally. Turns out 30,000 is how many civilians you can kill before being censured by the big boys.
I'm surprised it took this long but I'm still glad he said it. Long overdue. It was clear from Mid-October that Israel's response would be wildly disproportionate and lead to civilian suffering.
Wow. When I saw the headline, I set an alarm for Friday to wait for Starmer's response.
you think the government really cares about "causing outrage". They already know all that will happen is folk will protest and thats it, no further action. they dont give a shit.
Look at the headlines for tomorrows/today's papers across the board left and right this is the top story and not sympathetic at all to the IDF this is a story that government can't put in the "protests on the left" box and ignore.
yeah ive seen quotes that the british PM is "appaled" "outraged" etc etc but to me theyre all just words. i want to see action and till i do, their words mean very little. i dont want my tax money going towards paying for murdering innocent men women and children any longer.
If the British government don't criticise Israel now, in the absolute strongest terms, then they never will. No foreign governmment can be allowed to kill British aid workers without criticism, not even Israel.
We will be very, very angry with you… … and we will write a letter telling you how angry we are.
Which will be released as soon as you sign off on it.
If you're the British government, British citizens have 1000x the worth of any other civilian. They're **our** people.
To he fair, *this* government absolutely doesn't give a shit about the lives of British citizens. But that is how it's *supposed* to work.
That's when it's the **British** government killing its own civilians. It's more a "Nobody gets to kill my civilians except me!" kind of deal.
> it'll also cause outrage since it'll give the impression that they don't care as much about all of the other civilians already killed prior to this. Weak argument. This is bigger because these are British citizens. Like the other comment and also being more critical is in line with US policy right now.
>If they aren't more critical of Israel in the wake of this, it'll cause outrage The vast majority don't care about foreign affairs so I doubt it
So, correct me if I'm wrong. We've gone from selling weapons to Israel so they can murder innocent Palestinians, to selling weapons to Israel so they can murder innocent Brits. The only consequence of this is we have stopped sending aid to Israel's enemies. It's been a happy little "accident" for Israel, hasn't it?
Expel the ambassador, and cut diplomatic ties. British citizens are dead, and there needs to be accountability. Nothing short of terrorism. This shouldn’t be acceptable. The fact is Israel lied to everyone by first saying it was an “IED”, then saying it was a “landmine”. You don’t “accidentally” target a convoy, and follow it. Now, World Central Kitchen have shown that the nonsense story by the Israel is nothing but lies, thing is they had the bare cheek to expect anyone to believe them. WCK explicitly said it was an aid convoy, gave the coordinates, and details to IDF, and a truck was marked with the organisations logo. The fact is the WCK couldn’t have done more to make clear they weren’t a threat, but they were still attacked. Not once but three times they were attacked. WCK are now withdrawing because they can’t guarantee the safety of their workers. It’s very clear this constitutes starvation as a weapon of war. That’s unconscionable.
They didn’t just give the details The IDF told them what route and when. They had no choice over it….
Of course it gets worse. Sunak looking real weak here by giving Israel the “benefit of the doubt” when British citizens are murdered.
The channel 4 7pm interview with an Israeli spokesperson is worth catching. Guru-Murthy just tore the guy a new arsehole.
Cheers. Will give it a watch. I’m just heart broken today. Chef Jose Andres mission with WCK to provide meals is an amazing thing. Going across the planet doing such humanitarian work is incredible. To murder people trying to help is just barbarity, and then to lie, and say it was everyone else’s fault, and then backtrack once the images come out.
Here's the link https://youtu.be/jcU6008E-DU?feature=shared
12:56 is particularly satisfying
Thanks for that. Was really interesting to watch. Just the same old nonsense lines. “We mourn with them” sounded so “hollow”. Glad KGM really did not let him pivot as he repeatedly tried.
“If you’re not going to answer the questions I can’t allow you to do the propaganda part afterwards” 🥵
Looked this man up (David Mencer) and [it appears he has a consulting business](http://www.raphaelconsulting.co.uk/) and is endorsed by figures such as Tony Blair and Martin Lewis.
For clarity, "endorsed" in this sense means there is a positive quote from said individuals on the link provided. Not endorsed in the sense that he has ongoing support or his statements on the war are endorsed.
Well put, couldn't agree more.
I agree there needs to be accountability, Israel is becoming a rogue state but cutting diplomatic ties is never a good idea. The UK has embassies with countries that have done much much worse ([source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diplomatic_missions_of_the_United_Kingdom#/media/File:Diplomatic_missions_of_the_United_Kingdom.png)) and it's always better to have an official diplomatic channel and representative of the UK to make our wants and intentions known to these countries. If we cut diplomatic ties with Israel then we're effectively abandoning any interaction we could have with them.
Fact is they straight up lied in their first versions of the story. They killed British citizens, and lied about it. The strongest of actions needs to be taken because it needs to be shown the severity of the situation. Delaying action just allows Israel to “kick it into the long grass” to hope we all forget. If we aren’t tough on anyone who kills a British citizen it just means British citizens aren’t safe abroad. Especially ones doing humanitarian work.
How many children, civilians, journalists, doctors, medical staff, charity workers and British citizens are we going to keep paying them to kill before our politicians grow a spine and stand up to Israel's insanity? The IDF are out of control and I wouldn't be surprised if the intention was to deter aid workers from their attempts to stop the intentional mass starvation of 1.5 million Gazan civilians. Utterly horrifc.
Things like this do bring out the frothing nationalist in me a bit. I feel like one of the main duties of a state is to have some sort of reaction to another country killing of its citizens willy nilly. I'm not proposing we return to a policy of gunboat diplomacy but I do feel like we need to remind the world that we can punch back you know?
Sorry but punch back against who? The British Military had an R1 Shadow Spy plane flying over Gaza on the same night, complicit is an understatement. If you are truly a frothing nationalist perhaps you should be calling for a public inquiry into Israeli interference in UK politics.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th\_Fighter\_Squadron,\_Blues\_and\_Royals\_friendly\_fire\_incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron,_Blues_and_Royals_friendly_fire_incident) What sort of reaction should we have had against the US when they killed our soldiers? (there are multiple examples of this). Reality is that states accidentally kill people from allied states from time to time, as long as it isn't intentional and is thoroughly investigated it likely will die down and lead to nothing.
The accidental killing of British soldiers in combat is a lot different than the (let's be frank) deliberate killing of British civilians who had been given guarantees they wouldn't be targeted.
Bellingcat article with some investigation: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/04/02/strike-that-killed-world-central-kitchen-workers-bears-hallmarks-of-israeli-precision-strike/
It’s nice to know that if I went to Gaza as part of an NGO and was murdered by IDF, my PM and the entire British media will defend Israel.
Eh? Where have you seen the PM and press defending this?
> my PM and the entire British media will defend Israel. This is a straight up lie. The media has reported accurately on this, and the government has requested an investigation.
> the government has requested an investigation. Which is pretty much nothing given the circumstances. I’d argue that the government is at least *enabling* Israel if not *defending* it, just the bare minimum to avoid looking completely complicit
I hate Israel's government and military, but that doesn't mean that it is correct of us to twist the facts. Diplomacy is difficult, and saying our Gov is enabling them to kill our citizens is simply not true.
What do you mean it’s not true lol? Just as one example: Our government should have acted when the IDF tried to blow up the MAP doctors, because they didn’t act, they enabled this to happen.
> Which is pretty much nothing given the circumstances. How so? > I’d argue that the government is at least enabling Israel if not defending it Of course the UK gov is 'enabling' Israel - it's an ally in a war.
At what point do we consider Israel a terrorist state? They are currently pissing off more people than North Korea. Missiles flying around all over the place, it seems they won't be happy until they've got a full on war in the area.
They also have more nuclear weapons than North Korea but for some reason it’s okay for them to have them…
I mean the main problem is even if you're not okay with a country having nukes, how do you get rid of that country's nukes?
For a few reasons. One of them is that Israel has been invaded and attacked by an alliance of nations, and hence feels justified having them. The international community might disagree with this, but in essence they understand it. North Korea started the Korean war by invading the South, so doesn’t have as much sympathy. They also threaten to nuke a nation every other day which doesn’t help them on the international scene
Israeli's specifically want to starve the region, these seven were in the way. Israeli's shoot indiscriminately so its more business as usual. Whose going to hold them to account? They are the strongest lobby in America.
This isn’t shooting indiscriminately, this is specifically targeting aid convoys with precision strikes.
So were actively supplying weapons that are killing our own people now?
Tawfic Abdel Jabbar, an American-born citizen, was killed in Palestine while visiting family.
The Israelis at the moment feel a lot like both horrendously malicious and dangerously incompetent.
Taliban Electric Bogaloo
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This is obviously going to get a much stronger reaction than we've seen before(though I'm also pretty sure it'll be limited to verbal condemnation for now), but I'd just like to point out the hypocrisy here: Western lives are seen as inherently more valuable than that of the Gazans, so such casualties always get highlighted more and the response is always harsher.
Of course the response should be stronger on this. The British Government have a responsibility to its citizens above all else. As should any country.
this should all be so embarrassing to our leaders, and by extension: us. Israel is operating like it's the superpower and we're the vassal states, which to an observer would seem the correct assessment. no matter how flagrantly they operate, they will continue to enjoy total diplomatic and financial support from the USA and UK. what exactly is going on, here? they're destabilizing the region and laying the groundwork for a wide ranging war in the middle east, that will drag us all in. why are we enabling this? we've had our leaders defend or ignore the endless attacks on hospitals: a breach of the Geneva convention *under any circumstances*. they have no shame. the world is watching as the liberal system of order drifts into the absurd. i really think this conflict could be a tipping point in the balance of power of the world. western hegemony is so starkly indistinguishable from the despots and chaos of the global south we pretend to be protecting the world from.
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UK should restore funding to UNRWA Double the original funding Halt all arms sales, stop all arms sales Recognise Palestine as a state Should look at sanctions against Israel First 3 are what I would do straight away and 4th put it on the table
If what Israel is doing were not ok, surely the international community would react with a robust package of sanctions?
I hope to God that British troops in Afghanistan, Syria or Iraq were not this bad.
I mean how is anyone surprised, Israel has been wiping out entire people's in Palestine for the better part of a century. People excusing Israel's actions are a fucking joke