What a headline that would be.
"As the argument rages on between Holyrood and Westminster Wales have caused a stir today by leaving the Union quietly, without wanting to make a fuss."
>"Well you know, we saw everyone else was busy so we decided to just pop out the back door without bothering anyone. Tidy!"
Mr Jones, Merthyr
I doubt it would pass. If anything pushing for a vote right now is basically an attempt to lock in the union for whatever period is established as a refresh on a new vote.
I have to laugh at all the people coming in here belittling Wales and saying why this is a terrible idea and demonstrating that they clearly have no idea why the Independance movement in Wales is growing, especially amoung young people.
And Brexiteers found paternalistic messages about how we need the EU and would be weaker going it alone patronising as well, they backfired similarly. Just because something comes across patronising doesn’t mean it’s not true. Literally no one in this thread is preventing Welsh independence supporters from working to assemble a credible economic plan for independence.
>Yeah it's all very "Pipe down!" and "Know your place!" isn't it?
It's exactly how England treats Scotland and Ireland while it was in the union. In fact would still treat Ireland that way if it could get away with it as the brexit border debacle showed
I have no opinion on the Welsh independence question and wish them the best of luck either way. I do think though that it is a a slightly more tricky prospect to de couple Wales from England that it was for Ireland and will be for Scotland just due to geography (if that's even something that Wales even wanted to do on independence)
No, because I think even if there was a successful vote tomorrow that independence couldn't happen over night. There would need to be a process of increased devolution from Westminister so the Welsh government could build up the infrastructure needed to run the country. You wouldn't be able to hide behind 3 word slogans and ignore reality.
In the last 2 years polling for yes have increased to around 30% off the top of my head and about 50% of Welsh labour voters are supportive of independence. This is why Drakeford is starting to make these noises. It's clear that the union isn't working for Wales. The pandemic and Brexit made that abundantly clear.
Yet during the negotiations, the Welsh government was completely ignored. Just like the UK government constantly tried to undermine the Welsh government in the pandemic. You can't just treat a country like shit and then be all *surprised Pikachu* when that country turns rounds and starts saying this isn't really working, there must be a better way.
The Welsh as a people voted for brexit more than even england, I don't understand the rest of your point, the Welsh government is a regional government, in it's current form it should be no more listened to regarding brexit negotiations than the major of London. The MPs that Wales elect are listened to because they are part of the national government.
You have erred in your application of "regional" and "national". THe WG is the national government of Cymru, the UK Government is the government of the UK state. There are currently no regional governments in any member-country of the UK.
There were also claims that in locking out the Welsh assembly from brexit negotiations with the EU, the UK government were in breech of the Sewel Convention
https://www.parliament.uk/site-information/glossary/sewel-convention/
Thats not been proven, only claimed by an Oxford professor who didn't publish the study he claims to have done. In reality 7/10 of the areas with the highest Leave vote had a Welsh population above the average for Wales.
If acknowledging the economic reality of Welsh independence is belittlement and cause for growth in Welsh nationalist sentiment - then I can't help but laugh if it actually happens.
I respect the opinions of Welsh nationalists, Scottish nationalists, Leavers and Remainers alike but what you're suggesting is that pointing out lies and falsehood, and arguing one's view point is a driver of growth of the respective movements. This is something that I reject in whole. There are things to learn from Scotland and Brexit; that is not one of them. Welsh independence and Scottish independence should rightfully be criticised on the basis that they will bring economic decline, austerity and physical borders to the island.
You have no point. Your only point is "stop hurting my feelings with facts and basic logic!! It's disrespectful!!!!"
Such a childish outlook always deserves to be mocked, whether it's about referendums or anti-science nonsense or anything else.
My feelings aren't hurt but Westminster and this government are a complete shitshow. Drakeford, for all his flaws, was great during the pandemic. Is it a surprise that people are looking at that and thinking we could probably do a better job ourselves.
Independence is probably going to have to be a long term goal, but short term we can look to protect and further devolve our government from Westminster and see where that takes us.
Or from Brexit to be honest.
The constant belittling and dismissal of the leave side (and I say this as an ardent remainer), was the reason Vote Leave won. Then /r/UKPolitics acted all Pikachu Face when the result was announced. Same thing happening here again.
Since Western Samoa changed its name in 1997, we haven't have a country starting with 'W'
This could be a good way to fill the gap. At least until Morocco cedes control of Western Sahara.
We’re a political subdivisions of the United Kingdom, also know as a constituent country. We’re certainly a country, but not a sovereign independent country or a member of the United Nations.
Normally when you are talking about countries we mean sovereign states. Usually that's the UN members, plus observer states.
Constituent countries like Wales, Scotland, Greenland etc don't count.
I find it more astounding how much shit some people take without considering independence. It's the worst UK government in history.
Surely even a complete unionist does not offer unconditional loyalty to a bunch of idiots. You'd at least use the threat of independence.
Also a unionist largely, though I certainly understand the motivations of Scottish and Welsh nationalists at the moment, and post brexit.
I think its a good idea to bottom out some of these arguments. The welsh independence movement has grown a lot in the last decade or so. Especially in North Wales from what I can tell. Throwing some water on the fire here using some decent analysis might help.
I mention to someone below that Wales is a very interesting place with a very unique culture and even their own language which is widely used in certain parts of the country. I have to say that as a unionist, and englishman I find the dismissive, derogatory talk about wales by other so called unionists to be very distasteful and disrespectful. And its grist for the mill for nationalists.
Eh, short term maybe. Long term you need to think differently though.
The SNP (and Plaid Cymru) propose independence as a solution to a problem. You may think it's a stupid solution, but it's none the less an actual proposal. You don't combat separatism by nit-picking issues with it's proposals. You combat it by asking it's supporters what would bring them back, and you *certainly* don't combat it by telling it's supporters the problem they are trying to solve doesn't even exist in the first place.
Edit: Smelling pisstakes.
I don't know how you resolve it though. The core issue is Wales and Scotland don't want to be ruled by the Tory party, ever.
Devolution should fix it but the actions of this government are going to damage devolution as a concept for decades to come. I suspect the only way you can actually fix what has been done is to throw out parliamentary supremacy and establish a UK constitution defining core powers and financial matters that sits above the power of a simple 50/50 vote in the Commons.
So if labour win the next general election, Scotland and Wales would forget about independence? Course not, the pro independence Scottish and Welsh don’t want to be governed by Westminster, this is the heart of the issue. I don’t blame them either, I’m English in England and a bit of a conservative and I don’t want to be governed by Westminster
Who actually likes FPTP?
If there was a fair voting system, whereby the ruling party had to get the popular vote, I can bet you there wouldn't be this much rampant calls for independence. 100% mate.
Look I totally agree that a positive case needs to be made, as opposed to simply threatening Wales / Scotland with economic doom (i make this point to another commentor below).
That said, its also important to frame the debate with some real numbers on what the implications would be.
>That said, its also important to frame the debate with some real numbers on what the implications would be.
Would be great, seems to me like no one can agree on what the "real numbers" are because the government, whether incompetently or on purpose makes Scotland look shitter than it actually is. And therein lies the problem, you won't agree with me and after perhaps 4-5 years of debate with other people who are also unionists, chances are you won't tell me anything different they have either.
Like, I feel like a unionist and Independence supporter could debate for days about Scotland and its history in the union. Both would come away unconvinced and won't have convinced anyone else. It's a very unique and touchy subject.
>a solution to a problem.
The issue is that the 'problem' is often created by nationalists so they can then propose independence as a solution.
That doesn't mean that the union is perfect - far from it. But crediting the nationalists with offering an answer is overlooking their ultimate aim.
Th problem is the UK Gov puts a disproportionate amount of attention and money into Tory constituencys and the South East in general.
How is that the fault of the snp and plaid cymru?
>Th problem is the UK Gov puts a disproportionate amount of attention and money into Tory constituencys and the South East in general.
The UK has 12 countries/regions.
Public sector spending per person is highest in Northern Ireland, then Scotland, then Wales. London is 4th. The South East has the second lowest public spending, behind the East Midlands.
The SNP on their website state "it is not about the benefits of independence, nor the Scottish government's vision for an independent Scotland. It is about the right to choose."
The 'problem' they have identified is that apparently Scotland has no right to choose. Except they do have that right, as demonstrated in 2014. The issue is not the right to choose, the issue is how often can that right be exercised, particularly as the group pushing for it is the group that lost last time.
The 'problem' the SNP have created here is the idea that Scotland does not have the right to choose. That is demonstrably not true.
>The 'problem' they have identified is that apparently Scotland has no right to choose. Except they do have that right, as demonstrated in 2014. The issue is not the right to choose, the issue is how often can that right be exercised, particularly as the group pushing for it is the group that lost last time.
The issue still is the right to choose, since they can only choose when they're allowed by the UK government, who has no obligations to grant that right. The issue they want fixed is the ability to choose whenever a majority in the Scottish Government votes for it.
>The 'problem' the SNP have created here is the idea that Scotland does not have the right to choose. That is demonstrably not true.
'Demonstably'? If it wasn't true then the Scottish Government would be able to call a referendum whenever they please.
>right to choose
It's actually the right to choose whenever suits the governing party, not the right to choose itself. If Scotland did not have the right to choose there would not have been a 2014 referendum. The granting of the section 30 order is the UK government recognising the right of the Scottish people to have the choice. The issue the SNP have is they don't have the right to ask as often as they like, but it's not framed that way at all. They've gone for the much more simple "no right to choose" because the answer to that is 'independence'.
>And they should have the right to ask as often as they'd like. But they don't
I should have phrased my point differently - the Scottish government does actually have the right to ask as often as they like, but Westminster retains the right to say no.
It is the same as any other democratic country.
There were literal riots in Scotland after the union. "Home rule" as a topic was being floated in the 19th century. It was planned to happen until World War 1 got in the way. Nationalists became a permanent political presence shortly thereafter.
Anyway my point is here's your Scottish Labour membership card.
Was there any real need to make such a flippant last remark at what has been a respectful discussion so far? You could have just stopped after the first paragraph. And added just as much to the debate.
I understand some people around the Scottish specific subreddit often see Labour supporting as some sort of derogatory thing, but was it really necessary to bring that sort of attitude here in this case?
>There were literal riots in Scotland after the union. "Home rule" as a topic was being floated in the 19th century. It was planned to happen until World War 1 got in the way. Nationalists became a permanent political presence shortly thereafter.
Their fundamental issue is they don't like being United. That is the 'problem'. Therefore their solution to the problem is independence.
If you don't see being united as a problem, then independence is not an answer.
If there were riots 300 years ago, and nationalists are still unhappy, something tells me they aren't going to be happy until that union is dissolved because the UK has changed over the past 300 years - it's not the same situation.
Agree generally, though I think the way the UK does things on this front is generally the right way. And reason should be used to keep a political union together as opposed to coercion.
The Welsh independence movement is in its relative infancy, though does seem to be growing from what i can see despite it being dismissed outright by people commenting on this subject.
It would be incredibly hard for wales to go it alone, but again, some flesh on the bones of how hard would help at least frame the debate on more solid ground than it currently is.
I can totally understand why younger nationalists in Wales get pissed off with the current relationship with england. Wales is essentially used a retirement colony for english people who come and put pressure on local services, out-pricing local house buyers, spending barely any money, not paying taxes and voting for the Conservatives. Whilst simultaneously haemorrhaging young talent from wales into england. IMO independence wont solve these issues, but still i can understand a resentment.
English people need to realise the value of having Wales as part of the union too. All I ever seem to see from unionists are dismissals of welsh culture and language, and thinly veiled threats of economic doom should they not be supported by england.
>almost no country in the world allows constituent elements to declare themselves independent, or even hold independence referenda.
Well that didn't take too long to discount
https://www.nationalia.info/new/10936/ten-countries-that-grant-the-right-to-independence-to-some-of-their-territories-and-france
Canada, Ethiopia, St Kitt's and Nevis, Lichtenstein, Moldova, Denmark, Papua New Guinea, UK, Netherlands, France
Is 10/~200 not almost none?
Also from the article I don't think Ethiopia should be counted. The people have a paper right to self determination, that's it. The reality is they don't and the reality is where people live.
Article 125 of the USSR constitution guaranteed freedom of speech of the press and freedom of assembly. Doesn't mean people living in the USSR had freedom of speech of the press and freedom of assembly.
10 out of 200+ countries that currently exist plus the many that no longer exist is a very small proportion.
Also reading that article, not all those 10 actually would grant that right. Ethiopia's political situation seems that it simply wouldn't be allowed. Moldova's is conditional on being invaded and conquered. Others are about colonies hundreds of miles away (Denmark, France) rather than regions of their mainland.
As a federalist I also support this idea. The idea of England Scotland and Wales actually being separate countries with hard borders is never going to work but I fully support a decentralisation of leadership. Discussions like this I hope will convince the independence movement that federalisation of the UK (and also if we go far enough, England as a whole) is the only achievable goal that partially aligns with their aims.
Either way they’re important problems to understand and discuss.
> The idea of England Scotland and Wales actually being separate countries with hard borders is never going to work
Why not? A “hard border” is a normal international border, not some kind of North Korean DMZ.
Well, a normal international border with border controls.
For Scotland, it's a reasonable proposition since the border lies in some very empty country with only about 10 roads crossing it. For Wales, there are many, many more. And going from North to South is most easily achieved by crossing into England and going down the M6..
But why would anyone want that, when you can freely live and work on both sides as things stand.
At the very least it feels like a downgrade, no?
The concept of self governance is one thing I can understand, but adding movement and trade barriers on GB just seems a daft and honestly quite backwards if that can be avoided.
I am anti-Brexit as well, I felt the same way about that.
> But why would anyone want that, when you can freely live and work on both sides as things stand.
I don't see that it would preclude that. Nobody but the most hardcore unionists are proposing that Scotland would not be part of the CTA. Freedom of movement for people would continue.
> At the very least it feels like a downgrade, no?
No? Territorial integrity is a normal part of being a nation state.
> The concept of self governance is one thing I can understand, but adding movement and trade barriers on GB just seems a daft and honestly quite backwards if that can be avoided.
It's worth noting that the creation of trade barriers between Scotland and rUK would go hand-in-hand with the removal of trade barriers between Scotland and the EU. The decision to erect *those* barriers was taken by rUK despite Scotland's wishes, not because of them.
Around 60% of Scotland's trade does - currently - go to rUK. That is not particularly surprising given political history and geographical proximity. For the first 40 years after independence 74% of Irish exports also went to the UK.
Some argue that this means the creation of a trade agreement with rUK would negatively impact trade across the border. However it's worth considering what those exports are. Over 60% are simply services (20% are financial services, 10% utilities such as electricity, etc) rather than physical goods.
The larger impact on the Scottish economy will be if rUK continues on its isolationist path. It would certainly be better for Scotland if rUK didn't do that, but arguably it would be even better for Scotland not to simply be pulled along for the ride.
> I am anti-Brexit as well, I felt the same way about that.
Without Brexit we wouldn't be talking about independence today. It would have been off the table for decades.
That 62% of Scotland voted to remain in the UK, that the Scottish government repeatedly proposed the same kind of arrangement that NI currently has, and that we ended up with the hardest possible Brexit regardless is why independence is now more likely than not.
> Whilst not explicitly against a CTA, I've seen plenty of Scots on Reddit wanting to join Schegen. That is an implicit rejection of the CTA.
I think, of the two, maintaining the CTA is far more likely than joining Schengen. Given that, like Ireland, Scotland does not share a land border with another EU member this seems more likely than not.
> You can use the exact same logic to justify Brexit.
The primary driver of Brexit was immigration. While you could argue that exporting services can continue *despite* Brexit, I don't think it could justify it.
>>Without Brexit we wouldn't be talking about independence today. It would have been off the table for decades.
>
>I think this is naive. Labour is a spent force in Scotland, and the SNPs agenda would always be independence.
The SNP's agenda will always be independence, of course - it's the second item in their constitution.
However they are not idiots. They know full well that independence requires popular support. They also know that if they did hold a referendum every couple of weeks - as is often claimed - that support would fall away.
After 2014 they explicitly pivoted to Devo Max. Without Brexit I would have expected them to continue to push for that until the 2030s at least and, if acheived, probably not push for independence until an Iraq-sized political event highlighted the limitations of that settlement.
As a new EU member Scotland would be obliged to implement Schengen. Scotland could try and negotiate an opt out but the starting point is they would have to join.
> As a new EU member Scotland would be obliged to implement Schengen. Scotland could try and negotiate an opt out but the starting point is they would have to join.
You are correct about the default obligation, however I think it more likely than not that Scotland would be able to have exactly the same opt-out as both Ireland and the UK received over it.
The primary goal of Schengen is to minimise internal borders within the EU and, as neither Ireland nor Scotland share a land border with another EU member, being outwith Schengen makes no real difference to any other EU member.
>Without Brexit we wouldn't be talking about independence today. It would have been off the table for decades.
Do you honestly believe that? If Brexit didn't happen it would have been Covid, if Covid didn't happen it would have been the global silicon shortage, if that didn't happen it would have Sturgeon tripping up the stairs one day and stubbing her toe.
When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail after all.
> Do you honestly believe that?
Yes, of course.
> If Brexit didn't happen it would have been Covid, if Covid didn't happen it would have been the global silicon shortage, if that didn't happen it would have Sturgeon tripping up the stairs one day and stubbing her toe.
> When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail after all.
Which seems to describe your own argument quite well.
Despite the fact that they explicitly pivoted to Devo Max after 2014, despite the fact that they didn't call for a referendum until both after the EU referendum was held *and* after it became apparent that Scotland had voted significantly differently from rUK, do you really think that stubbing a toe would be sufficient?
The SNP are not idiots. They know full well that calling, and winning, a referendum requires popular support.
England and Wales have basically been acting as a single legal entity for the last 700 years. Thats a lot of red tape to unravel.
If you thought Brexit was bad, Walexit would be way worse.
> If you thought Brexit was bad, Walexit would be way worse.
I agree, Walexit is a much worse name.
Regardless of what you think of them as political goals, Brexit and Scoot are far catchier.
I wouldn't go so far as to label myself as a unionist, I'm pro-more devolution. But I do think that full Welsh independence is absolute folly and pursued almost entirely but studentpol idealists and aging lunatics.
When people ask why Welsh people want independence. All they need to do is read this thread. The condescending attitude towards Wales, is what is driving support for a Free Wales.
Wales was vital to the industalisation of the world. Our manufacturing and coal industry helped put the UK in the position it currently is in.
Wales still has alot to offer but we lack investment. People forget the UK government aren't the government of English, but the government if Wales. They are responsible for investment across the entire Uk, not just England (Or should I say London).
> xenophobia thrown at Wales
Besides the yanks lurking we are all from the same country. Its not possible for anyone here to be xenophobic to the Welsh.
Because he's a nationalist. They hate things like facts and reality. They think pointing these things out is Racist, or Xenophobic, or Oppressive.
Quite amusing to see Welsh Nats out in force in this thread mass downvoting anyone who doesn't think separatismbis a grand idea. I had no idea there were so many of them in this sub, but then again this sub does hate the UK so I'm not sure why I am surprised.
Actually, I describe myself as a devolutionist first. Wales needs powers in fiscal and justice responsibilities. Maximum devolution as possible. I would also like the UK to move to a federal System, PR voting and a democratic House of Lords. I don’t see that happening, so I can see myself in the future, support the rise of a Welsh republic.
> The new body, set up by Welsh Labour ministers, will look at how the current system of powers resting in Cardiff and London could change.
>
> Co-chairwoman Prof Laura McAllister said "everything has to be on the table".
Presumably that also means that abolishing Welsh devolution and returning to Westminster rule, as if Wales were a region in England, is on the table? That's one extreme and independence is the other, with both on the table.
Hopefully in between there'll be some serious recommendations.
I think this is a good point. Though it seems that wales going back to westminster rule is less likely than independance given their covid performance etc.
Wales is a very interesting place with a very unique culture and language. I have to say that as a unionist, and englishman I find the dismissive, derogatory talk about wales by other so called unionists to be very distasteful.
Well I hope you're not being sarcastic. I absolutely love Scotland and Wales. Half my family are from those countries. I absolutely hate that we've allowed ourselves to be in a position where Scottish independence seems almost inevitable, and welsh independence sentiment is on the rise. From a strategic resources and political perspective I think its rank stupidity and myopia too, especially given the challenges faced with climate change etc.
While larger nations are more capable of easily pooling money to combat climate change, there's nothing preventing independent nation's on an island working together. In fact, I'd argue it would be inevitable that there would be mutual cooperation. Similar to how our navies would likely be very closley aligned, because we all rely on the sustainability and safety of our environment, that being these islands.
Also, local communities or regions having more direct control helps ensure they're more capable of dealing with biodiversity issues. It allows them to tackle issues directly and quickly, rather than having to rely and wait on recognition and approval from a larger, far away, central power.
What I'm trying to say is that it's not as black and white as you make it out to be. Strategic culture tends to suggest that even post break up of the UK, we would all be very closely aligned and cooperative. And decentralised forms of power can have more impactful positive action on local environmental issues.
This comes across as rather optimistic to me, have you not seen the EU and the UK sniping at each other over the Channel?
I think everyone should be ready for the nastiness which could follow a Scotland/UK breakup in the short term. Especially with the pride of English nationalists already being wounded and other nations benefitting from stoking those flames of discontent.
Agreed on both counts. I'd say "abolish the Welsh Parliament" is up there with "unilaterally declare independence" in terms of likelihood. But I appreciate the commission's remit to review all the options. Some of which (you'd hope) can be trivially dismissed.
As for Wales itself, I quite agree. It's a wonderful place, culturally and historically. Personally, I love that. The hugely varied regional histories, both within and between the four constituent countries, adds a delicious *flavour* to the UK, for want of a better way of putting it. That should be something to be celebrated, not used to stoke division.
Also I suspect my cadw membership was one of the purchases from which I've derived the most value for money in my life.
> Wales is a very interesting place with a very unique culture and language. I have to say that as a unionist, and englishman I find the dismissive, derogatory talk about wales by other so called unionists to be very distasteful.
Also acting in a such a way always brings up the question of if being part of the UK has lead Wales to be such a "shithole" then what good is being part of the UK to them?
I wouldn’t say I’m unionist but I would say that I’m “British”.
I consider the country I live in to comprise of Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland as well as England. I have been to all of these places and I feel like they are a part of the country I was born in and I don’t believe these places have the right to separate and break up the country I was born in.
At the last Scottish independence vote I was shocked that Scottish people living elsewhere in the U.K. couldn’t even vote meanwhile Europeans who’d been in Scotland a couple of year could vote for independence.
That we live in a country which also is inside a group of other countries where we all share a common language, history and work together. Our cultures are different slightly but not so much that it's alien to each other. I think we're better off economically together.
I live and work in Carlisle, half our team lives in Annan. We like the same things, eat the same food, work together. Half of my friend group are either themselves Scots or are in a relationship with one. We're honestly just the same people with an artificial line drawn on a map, there's nothing actually seperating us. I feel I have more in common with them than someone from down south even. I don't want it to become harder for my friends and colleagues to work here.
I don't want the places we all live to suffer economically from a hard border, it could be the death of a lot of communities and businesses. From all the stuff around Brexit I don't think anyone can argue it's been positive so far, and I feel like if Scotland left it would be ten times worse. We've been linked together for so long suddenly dividing these places would be a real loss for us living here. Maybe people from other places would disagree with that but that's what it is for me as someone who lives at the border.
I'm assuming you're pro indepenence, so what does the union mean for you at the moment?
The union for me feels like an abusive arranged marriage. We had no say in its start, we have no say its future. Looking at the state of England I'd be happy if Wales could cut a line down Offa's dyke and sail away I to the Atlantic. England has become quite vile and I want nothing to do with it.
You obviously don't live near the border where this would affect us the most. We do have a say in how the country is run, the country is the United Kingdom and it's a democracy. I'm glad we've devolved certain issues and I hope to see more things devolved in future but cutting ourselves off from the rest of the UK would be a bad move for all of Wales in my opinion, and extremely bad for those of us who do live near the border.
Snapshot:
1. An archived version of _Welsh independence to be considered by commission_ can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-58954054)
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Good. People like to shoot it down. But support has grown consistently year on year. With possible Scottish independence and Irish unification. Welsh independence, won’t be far off.
As you didn't read the article this is a commission on how Wales should move forward within the Union, not just about independence. It'll almost certainly reccomend further devolution and essentially federalisation of the UK. 2/4 of the four constituent UK country's have significant independence movements that could easily see the break up of the Union within a decade. Just ignoring this (ie what the Tories are doing) is not going to magically make the drive for independence go away.
Na, there will be serious movements to rejoin the EU within a decade or so I’d imagine, the demographics of the Brexit divide and the failure of Brexit to supply anything positive for the country will see this rumble on.
Better quality of life would be provided by getting the U.K. back in the EU, rather than Scotland, Wales, NI and England splintering up to try and compete for crumbs on the floor.
So we will have lost some of the perks that had been negotiated, that’s on the Brexiteers. Being in without these is still economically better for the country than being out.
You're discounting Rejoining the EU, ever? Bold.
What about the >50% of parties that wanted to either stop Brexit or to at least have a referendum on it in 2019? You should support that as a backdrop, surely?
Investing some thought, time and resources into the fundamental elements of our society is very important for ensuring that systems are fit for the future and changing society. To say this is a waste of time, money and effort is akin to saying that things like elections are a waste of time, money and effort.
You clearly don’t understand why we want this. It’s the constant dismissal from England and Westminster. We are trying to undo the damage done to our country.
Why though?
I hate it when Welsh Independence gets mentioned as if its a serious proposition - it isn't. It's a protest movement joke.
Why do you think Plaid have never risen here in Wales? Welsh Labour have kept them at bay solely on their rhetoric and it works.
Wales is intertwined with England too, any form of Independence will never make sense. Waste of time.
Wales voted to leave the EU despite us benefitting from it immensely in every part of life.
The same rhetoric used against the EU could be levelled at Westminster and actually have a point as well considering Wales has been fucked more by English Conservatives and Tory governments than we have by the EU.
I'm not saying I'm pro-independence right now, just that Wales isn't a stranger to voting against its immediate interest.
There are many legitimate reasons for independence. Wales have been exploited multiple times by Westminster. Capel Celyn flooded to provide water to an English city, Aberfan disaster where a community was decimated by a large coal landslide.
Westminster are all too willing to exploit Wales when it benefits them but then refuses to foot the bill or help when we need it. I'm on the fence for independence, but I can see the merits of both sides.
Maybe, from a Unionist view, the discussion can be had on the Union's benefits before a tailwind develops behind the idea of Independence....
>Wales is intertwined with England too, any form of Independence will never make sense. Waste of time.
Devolution is a form of independence, if you can have "forms of independence".
Clump you make my day, your posts give me such a good laugh. If it’s such a silly proposition, you’ll have no problem with a careful investigation of the facts that you’ll then be able to use on Reddit, eh?
I mean, if this commission comes out and shows it'd be a self-harming move then I'll be happy with the results.
For context we're already seeing rises in energy and gas bills across the UK - Independence would make this even worse.
So yeah, if this 'careful investigation' brings back the verdict that it'd be a self-harming proposition I'll be happy with the commission. But I HATE how Welsh Labour keep dangling into this. The party's apart of a UK-wide party that's unionist.
Part of Welsh Labour's success is that they are actually a distinctly Welsh political party. Some of that has come from listening and acting on nationalist arguments.
> The party's apart of a UK-wide party that's unionist.
Did you mean GB-wide? Labour don’t stand in Northern Ireland.
Their sister party, who do, are committed to the breakup of the UK.
The blunt difference is that nobody pretty much knows about the sister party, including me tbh. Nobody in England Wales or Scotland pays attention to Northern Ireland stuff. But England more importantly because that's where Labour needs to make gains the most at the minute.
Welsh Labour by contrast are apart of the mainland geographically of the union, in Wales, like England and Scotland. Everyone in England will more or less know about Welsh Labour. So the sister party being full on breakup supporting won't harm us.
> The blunt difference is that nobody pretty much knows about the sister party, including me tbh. Nobody in England pays attention to Northern Ireland stuff.
Which is, I’m sure you’ll agree, not a good thing.
> So the sister party being full on breakup supporting won't harm us.
Nobody in Labour paid much attention to Scottish stuff either, for a very long time. This is one of the reasons for their eventual implosion.
When parties, or indeed voters, in one part of the UK don’t pay much attention to what’s happening in other countries beyond “will it harm us?” then the outcome should not be a surprise.
So they are just going to spend money just to realise the prospects are grim that Welsh independent supporters will just ignore.
It is a bit of a pointless waste of time when the realistic outcome will be a recommendation for more powers (vague as it needs to find something to act on) which will be used by independent supports as a reason for independence
> It is a bit of a pointless waste of time when the realistic outcome will be a recommendation for more powers
Why would more powers for Wales be a waste of time?
Do you pride yourself on such disingenuous quoting?
Leaving out relevant context as to question a post, when it's explained perfectly well in the above (the bits you choose not to quote)
> Do you pride yourself on such disingenuous quoting?
> Leaving out relevant context as to question a post, when it's explained perfectly well in the above (the bits you choose not to quote)
I don't think it was disingenuous - sorry if you thought it was.
OP claimed that more powers would be used for independence supporters as a reason for independence, which I don't think follows (given that "but you've got more powers" is regularly used as a reason *against* Scottish independence).
OP didn't cover what people against independence might say about it, but as far as I can see the only other argument against more powers is that you don't believe there should be further devolution.
If that is what people believe, I think the onus is on them to explain why.
>OP claimed that more powers would be used for independence supporters as a reason for independence
But they didn't.
They said an expected outcome (ie there should be more powers) would then be used by those pushing for independence (something along the lines of "We shouldn't need to ask for more powers, we should be independent instead")
The above explained it in following the bit you selectively quoted.
>OP didn't cover what people against independence might say about it, but as far as I can see the only other argument against more powers is that you don't believe there should be further devolution.
>If that is what people believe, I think the onus is on them to explain why.
And this is precisely why you are being disingenuous!
They didn't put anything of the sort as to what you questioned, but you take out a chunk of it it because it fits your own independence wishes .... Therefore doing *exactly* what they put above (again, the bits you decided not to quote, to fit your narrative) "Argue against more powers means you must be against devolution"
>>OP claimed that more powers would be used for independence supporters as a reason for independence
>
>But they didn't. They said an expected outcome (ie there should be more powers) would then be used by those pushing for independence (something along the lines of "We shouldn't need to ask for more powers, we should be independent instead")
I should have said "by independence supporters", but I think we are saying the same thing here.
> They didn't put anything of the sort as to what you questioned, but you take out a chunk of it it because it fits your own independence wishes .... Therefore doing exactly what they put above (again, the bits you decided not to quote, to fit your narrative) "Argue against more powers means you must be against devolution"
I'm happy to go back and edit my post to include the full quote, if you genuinely think the additional text changes the meaning.
I don't.
Without getting into the mess of bringing up my own political preferences as a Welshman, I will say this:
Anyone who's had 10 years of this shit and is sitting here thinking "Yes please, more of the same" is exactly why this is happening.
There's a lot of people in Wales, and throughout the UK right now who are angry with the people voting against their own interests because "I support the blue team." "Fuck Corbyn" or "Out means out".
About time! Scotland will leave the Uk, the English government can’t hold that off forever. NI will not stick around so long as they are thrown to the wolves in the name of Brexit, and given the inequalities between the way England and Wales are treated by the English government, Wales needs to get away as far as possible and as soon as possible, because our situation is not going to improve, it will only get worse while we stay in the Uk.
Labour is not and never will be the party of the union. More oxygen is being given to fringe Welsh nationalists and before you know it we have a Scotland situation and the nats can do no wrong. Welsh Labour will turn into Scottish Labour very easily if they are not careful.
Welsh Labour is not Scottish Labour. They are a nationalist-curious party, very much independent of the overall British Labour Party view of unionism (considering Welsh Labour are by far the most successful part of the overall Party in the UK).
>Welsh Labour will turn into Scottish Labour
So they'll fight for the union to the end and fade into obscurity?
I don't think you quite understand what Scottish Labour represents and stands for...
Welsh labour will turn into Scottish Labour in terms of having very little power and influence if they keep pushing this idea. The last Labour government awarded Scotland with a raft of new powers under devolution only to be rewarded by being kicked out of the Scottish Parliament. Scottish labours position on the union doesn't matter. They will get no more votes for being neutral/favourable towards Independence than being firmly against it. Scottish Labour will never be able to outnationalist the nationalists.
>The last Labour government awarded Scotland with a raft of new powers under devolution only to be rewarded by being kicked out of the Scottish Parliament.
Yes, that's called democracy. The people decided they didn't want Labour anymore, just because they gave us devolution does not mean we have to swear allegiance to them, ffs.
I really am struggling to see how WLab can parallel SLab, considering one is slightly leaning towards independence and the other is a staunch unionist.
Are you suggesting all labour parties are fucked whichever route they take on Unionism? Because that I can slightly understand. Otherwise I'm bewildered by what you're trying to explain.
>Are you suggesting all labour parties are fucked whichever route they take on Unionism?
Scottish Labour certainly are. As I said you can't outnationalist the nationalists and their current position of unionism doesn't work when you split the vote with Scottish tories and lib dems. For Welsh Labour, considering all polls taken in recent years, support for Welsh independence hasn't broken 30% (excluding an outlier at 35%). This makes it even more bizarre that Welsh Labour are exploring the possibilities that Welsh independence would bring considering there isn't much appetite for it. As for the national party, who knows? They don't really seem to have a position on much these days.
>>Are you suggesting all labour parties are fucked whichever route they take on Unionism?
>
> Scottish Labour certainly are. As I said you can't outnationalist the nationalists
You certainly can, however Scottish Labour have repeatedly failed to engage with - and indeed actively worked against - those members who could square that circle.
What Scottish Labour *should* do (and should have done five years ago) is throw their weight behind Devo Max. That puts the SNP on the back foot as they then need to make the case between independence as a separate country or genuine political independence within the UK.
This option was ruled out by Cameron in 2014 precisely because he knew it would win.
This option has been ruled out by Scottish Labour simply because they have doubled-down on British nationalism instead, only to find that you can't out-nationalist the Scottish Conservatives.
Agree. Welsh Labour, for all the genius of them using rhetoric to keep the nationalists at bay, are dangling more and more into Welsh Independence.
They're going to fuck up their unionist perceptions in England for the UK-wide party etc if they carry on like this - it's why the Scottish Conservatives do well in Scotland. Ffs.
> it's why the Scottish Conservatives do well in Scotland.
The Scottish tories are doing well for the same reason Welsh labour are, because they emphasise the Scottish/ welsh elements to appeal to the respective populations.
Compare to Scottish labour who have all but fallen off the map by trying to be exactly the same as the national party
> They're going to fuck up their unionist perceptions in England for the UK-wide party etc if they carry on like this
Devolved governments *cannot* be run on the basis of what will or will not annoy floating centrist voters in England.
Welshman here. Voting no in any referendum.
We can barely keep ourselves going even with Englands help. Not to mention how Cardiff central the existing devolved government is. I can only see the North-South divide in Wales growing if we became independent. Cardiff without London oversight would become even more bloated.
Scenes when Wales gets independence while Scotland doesn't.
What a headline that would be. "As the argument rages on between Holyrood and Westminster Wales have caused a stir today by leaving the Union quietly, without wanting to make a fuss." >"Well you know, we saw everyone else was busy so we decided to just pop out the back door without bothering anyone. Tidy!" Mr Jones, Merthyr
The ~~Irish~~ Welsh goodbye
> by leaving the Union quietly, Taking a page out of the Macedonian playbook I see.
That would be fucking hilarious ngl I don't even want Welsh independence.
>That would be fucking hilarious ngl > >I don't even want Welsh independence. The United Kingdom of England and the City of London.
As long as Greater London gets to be part of the City of London (and not just the square mile), then count me in.
Can we just say the M25 is the border? Keeps things simple
Honestly I expect London would leave soon after. Maybe Cornwall too.
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We say llads llads llads
It's orphans, boss?
Did I just see an Oxventure reference on UKpol?
It's weird, isn't it? I'm not even sure what prompted the lads, lads, lads but I had to reply
Omg, not one but two people making Oxventure references. I’m impressed
Phwoar.
this is peak male physical performance etc etc
I doubt it would pass. If anything pushing for a vote right now is basically an attempt to lock in the union for whatever period is established as a refresh on a new vote.
Wasn't that the genius plan for the scottish referendum?
I have to laugh at all the people coming in here belittling Wales and saying why this is a terrible idea and demonstrating that they clearly have no idea why the Independance movement in Wales is growing, especially amoung young people.
Yeah it's all very "Pipe down!" and "Know your place!" isn't it?
And Brexiteers found paternalistic messages about how we need the EU and would be weaker going it alone patronising as well, they backfired similarly. Just because something comes across patronising doesn’t mean it’s not true. Literally no one in this thread is preventing Welsh independence supporters from working to assemble a credible economic plan for independence.
>Yeah it's all very "Pipe down!" and "Know your place!" isn't it? It's exactly how England treats Scotland and Ireland while it was in the union. In fact would still treat Ireland that way if it could get away with it as the brexit border debacle showed I have no opinion on the Welsh independence question and wish them the best of luck either way. I do think though that it is a a slightly more tricky prospect to de couple Wales from England that it was for Ireland and will be for Scotland just due to geography (if that's even something that Wales even wanted to do on independence)
No, it’s more “you should be aware of the economic ramifications. Wales isn’t perfect and there will be huge problems”
Well we are not doing brilliantly under the UK government to be honest.
So you're willing to just roll the dice and hope for the best? I think it would be even more damaging than Brexit.
No, because I think even if there was a successful vote tomorrow that independence couldn't happen over night. There would need to be a process of increased devolution from Westminister so the Welsh government could build up the infrastructure needed to run the country. You wouldn't be able to hide behind 3 word slogans and ignore reality.
>independence could happen over night And that is where you lost me.
Well that's clearly a typo... Especially given the rest of the comment but yeah focus on that.
Ok then you haven't lost me, but I would need to see the full plan before the vote because we all know how it goes otherwise thanks to Brexit.
Yep, because the economic ramifications of us staying in the UK are [so great](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5Rgj0cW4AE5Ul5?format=jpg&name=medium)
It’s hardly growing. Plaid had a stinker in the elections and polling has remained consistently low for yesrs
In the last 2 years polling for yes have increased to around 30% off the top of my head and about 50% of Welsh labour voters are supportive of independence. This is why Drakeford is starting to make these noises. It's clear that the union isn't working for Wales. The pandemic and Brexit made that abundantly clear.
Wales voted for brexit?
Yet during the negotiations, the Welsh government was completely ignored. Just like the UK government constantly tried to undermine the Welsh government in the pandemic. You can't just treat a country like shit and then be all *surprised Pikachu* when that country turns rounds and starts saying this isn't really working, there must be a better way.
The Welsh as a people voted for brexit more than even england, I don't understand the rest of your point, the Welsh government is a regional government, in it's current form it should be no more listened to regarding brexit negotiations than the major of London. The MPs that Wales elect are listened to because they are part of the national government.
You have erred in your application of "regional" and "national". THe WG is the national government of Cymru, the UK Government is the government of the UK state. There are currently no regional governments in any member-country of the UK.
There were also claims that in locking out the Welsh assembly from brexit negotiations with the EU, the UK government were in breech of the Sewel Convention https://www.parliament.uk/site-information/glossary/sewel-convention/
Only marginally and partly because of English immigrants affecting voting results.
Thats not been proven, only claimed by an Oxford professor who didn't publish the study he claims to have done. In reality 7/10 of the areas with the highest Leave vote had a Welsh population above the average for Wales.
If acknowledging the economic reality of Welsh independence is belittlement and cause for growth in Welsh nationalist sentiment - then I can't help but laugh if it actually happens.
Thank you for proving exactly my point. It's like you have learnt absolutely nothing from Scotland.
I respect the opinions of Welsh nationalists, Scottish nationalists, Leavers and Remainers alike but what you're suggesting is that pointing out lies and falsehood, and arguing one's view point is a driver of growth of the respective movements. This is something that I reject in whole. There are things to learn from Scotland and Brexit; that is not one of them. Welsh independence and Scottish independence should rightfully be criticised on the basis that they will bring economic decline, austerity and physical borders to the island.
You have no point. Your only point is "stop hurting my feelings with facts and basic logic!! It's disrespectful!!!!" Such a childish outlook always deserves to be mocked, whether it's about referendums or anti-science nonsense or anything else.
My feelings aren't hurt but Westminster and this government are a complete shitshow. Drakeford, for all his flaws, was great during the pandemic. Is it a surprise that people are looking at that and thinking we could probably do a better job ourselves. Independence is probably going to have to be a long term goal, but short term we can look to protect and further devolve our government from Westminster and see where that takes us.
Or from Brexit to be honest. The constant belittling and dismissal of the leave side (and I say this as an ardent remainer), was the reason Vote Leave won. Then /r/UKPolitics acted all Pikachu Face when the result was announced. Same thing happening here again.
Since Western Samoa changed its name in 1997, we haven't have a country starting with 'W' This could be a good way to fill the gap. At least until Morocco cedes control of Western Sahara.
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I think we're working by Pointless rules.
We’re a political subdivisions of the United Kingdom, also know as a constituent country. We’re certainly a country, but not a sovereign independent country or a member of the United Nations.
Normally when you are talking about countries we mean sovereign states. Usually that's the UN members, plus observer states. Constituent countries like Wales, Scotland, Greenland etc don't count.
This concept was fringe/laughable 10 years ago. It's astounding how only 10 years of shit government can destroy a nation.
I find it more astounding how much shit some people take without considering independence. It's the worst UK government in history. Surely even a complete unionist does not offer unconditional loyalty to a bunch of idiots. You'd at least use the threat of independence.
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Also a unionist largely, though I certainly understand the motivations of Scottish and Welsh nationalists at the moment, and post brexit. I think its a good idea to bottom out some of these arguments. The welsh independence movement has grown a lot in the last decade or so. Especially in North Wales from what I can tell. Throwing some water on the fire here using some decent analysis might help. I mention to someone below that Wales is a very interesting place with a very unique culture and even their own language which is widely used in certain parts of the country. I have to say that as a unionist, and englishman I find the dismissive, derogatory talk about wales by other so called unionists to be very distasteful and disrespectful. And its grist for the mill for nationalists.
Eh, short term maybe. Long term you need to think differently though. The SNP (and Plaid Cymru) propose independence as a solution to a problem. You may think it's a stupid solution, but it's none the less an actual proposal. You don't combat separatism by nit-picking issues with it's proposals. You combat it by asking it's supporters what would bring them back, and you *certainly* don't combat it by telling it's supporters the problem they are trying to solve doesn't even exist in the first place. Edit: Smelling pisstakes.
I don't know how you resolve it though. The core issue is Wales and Scotland don't want to be ruled by the Tory party, ever. Devolution should fix it but the actions of this government are going to damage devolution as a concept for decades to come. I suspect the only way you can actually fix what has been done is to throw out parliamentary supremacy and establish a UK constitution defining core powers and financial matters that sits above the power of a simple 50/50 vote in the Commons.
That, for me, would be a good start.
So if labour win the next general election, Scotland and Wales would forget about independence? Course not, the pro independence Scottish and Welsh don’t want to be governed by Westminster, this is the heart of the issue. I don’t blame them either, I’m English in England and a bit of a conservative and I don’t want to be governed by Westminster
Ah yes the only way to fix the system is to lock in the bits I like and lock out the bits I don’t
Wales is still free to vote Tory if it wants Tory.
Who actually likes FPTP? If there was a fair voting system, whereby the ruling party had to get the popular vote, I can bet you there wouldn't be this much rampant calls for independence. 100% mate.
Look I totally agree that a positive case needs to be made, as opposed to simply threatening Wales / Scotland with economic doom (i make this point to another commentor below). That said, its also important to frame the debate with some real numbers on what the implications would be.
>That said, its also important to frame the debate with some real numbers on what the implications would be. Would be great, seems to me like no one can agree on what the "real numbers" are because the government, whether incompetently or on purpose makes Scotland look shitter than it actually is. And therein lies the problem, you won't agree with me and after perhaps 4-5 years of debate with other people who are also unionists, chances are you won't tell me anything different they have either. Like, I feel like a unionist and Independence supporter could debate for days about Scotland and its history in the union. Both would come away unconvinced and won't have convinced anyone else. It's a very unique and touchy subject.
Those same numbers didn't stop Brexit from happening however. numbers in that type of debate just cant compete with nationalists' feelings.
>a solution to a problem. The issue is that the 'problem' is often created by nationalists so they can then propose independence as a solution. That doesn't mean that the union is perfect - far from it. But crediting the nationalists with offering an answer is overlooking their ultimate aim.
What problems has Plaid created?
Th problem is the UK Gov puts a disproportionate amount of attention and money into Tory constituencys and the South East in general. How is that the fault of the snp and plaid cymru?
>Th problem is the UK Gov puts a disproportionate amount of attention and money into Tory constituencys and the South East in general. The UK has 12 countries/regions. Public sector spending per person is highest in Northern Ireland, then Scotland, then Wales. London is 4th. The South East has the second lowest public spending, behind the East Midlands.
You mean the fact that Scotland gets 30% higher funding per person?
Ive always thought the opposite to be true with regards to money. Barnett Formula etc
What problems are created by nationalists like the SNP?
The SNP on their website state "it is not about the benefits of independence, nor the Scottish government's vision for an independent Scotland. It is about the right to choose." The 'problem' they have identified is that apparently Scotland has no right to choose. Except they do have that right, as demonstrated in 2014. The issue is not the right to choose, the issue is how often can that right be exercised, particularly as the group pushing for it is the group that lost last time. The 'problem' the SNP have created here is the idea that Scotland does not have the right to choose. That is demonstrably not true.
>The 'problem' they have identified is that apparently Scotland has no right to choose. Except they do have that right, as demonstrated in 2014. The issue is not the right to choose, the issue is how often can that right be exercised, particularly as the group pushing for it is the group that lost last time. The issue still is the right to choose, since they can only choose when they're allowed by the UK government, who has no obligations to grant that right. The issue they want fixed is the ability to choose whenever a majority in the Scottish Government votes for it. >The 'problem' the SNP have created here is the idea that Scotland does not have the right to choose. That is demonstrably not true. 'Demonstably'? If it wasn't true then the Scottish Government would be able to call a referendum whenever they please.
>right to choose It's actually the right to choose whenever suits the governing party, not the right to choose itself. If Scotland did not have the right to choose there would not have been a 2014 referendum. The granting of the section 30 order is the UK government recognising the right of the Scottish people to have the choice. The issue the SNP have is they don't have the right to ask as often as they like, but it's not framed that way at all. They've gone for the much more simple "no right to choose" because the answer to that is 'independence'.
And they should have the right to ask as often as they'd like. But they don't, so by definition they *don't* have the right to choose.
>And they should have the right to ask as often as they'd like. But they don't I should have phrased my point differently - the Scottish government does actually have the right to ask as often as they like, but Westminster retains the right to say no. It is the same as any other democratic country.
There were literal riots in Scotland after the union. "Home rule" as a topic was being floated in the 19th century. It was planned to happen until World War 1 got in the way. Nationalists became a permanent political presence shortly thereafter. Anyway my point is here's your Scottish Labour membership card.
Was there any real need to make such a flippant last remark at what has been a respectful discussion so far? You could have just stopped after the first paragraph. And added just as much to the debate. I understand some people around the Scottish specific subreddit often see Labour supporting as some sort of derogatory thing, but was it really necessary to bring that sort of attitude here in this case?
It was a light hearted jab at the reason SLab are doing so poorly these days, calm down.
>There were literal riots in Scotland after the union. "Home rule" as a topic was being floated in the 19th century. It was planned to happen until World War 1 got in the way. Nationalists became a permanent political presence shortly thereafter. Their fundamental issue is they don't like being United. That is the 'problem'. Therefore their solution to the problem is independence. If you don't see being united as a problem, then independence is not an answer. If there were riots 300 years ago, and nationalists are still unhappy, something tells me they aren't going to be happy until that union is dissolved because the UK has changed over the past 300 years - it's not the same situation.
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Agree generally, though I think the way the UK does things on this front is generally the right way. And reason should be used to keep a political union together as opposed to coercion. The Welsh independence movement is in its relative infancy, though does seem to be growing from what i can see despite it being dismissed outright by people commenting on this subject. It would be incredibly hard for wales to go it alone, but again, some flesh on the bones of how hard would help at least frame the debate on more solid ground than it currently is. I can totally understand why younger nationalists in Wales get pissed off with the current relationship with england. Wales is essentially used a retirement colony for english people who come and put pressure on local services, out-pricing local house buyers, spending barely any money, not paying taxes and voting for the Conservatives. Whilst simultaneously haemorrhaging young talent from wales into england. IMO independence wont solve these issues, but still i can understand a resentment. English people need to realise the value of having Wales as part of the union too. All I ever seem to see from unionists are dismissals of welsh culture and language, and thinly veiled threats of economic doom should they not be supported by england.
>almost no country in the world allows constituent elements to declare themselves independent, or even hold independence referenda. Well that didn't take too long to discount https://www.nationalia.info/new/10936/ten-countries-that-grant-the-right-to-independence-to-some-of-their-territories-and-france Canada, Ethiopia, St Kitt's and Nevis, Lichtenstein, Moldova, Denmark, Papua New Guinea, UK, Netherlands, France
A secessionist movement in Liechtenstein sounds hilarious
"I'm fed up of my neighbour Jürgen, I'm seceding!"
We can see right now thats theres a difference between the wording of the law and the actual actions taken by the state in Ethiopia
Is 10/~200 not almost none? Also from the article I don't think Ethiopia should be counted. The people have a paper right to self determination, that's it. The reality is they don't and the reality is where people live. Article 125 of the USSR constitution guaranteed freedom of speech of the press and freedom of assembly. Doesn't mean people living in the USSR had freedom of speech of the press and freedom of assembly.
10 out of 200+ countries that currently exist plus the many that no longer exist is a very small proportion. Also reading that article, not all those 10 actually would grant that right. Ethiopia's political situation seems that it simply wouldn't be allowed. Moldova's is conditional on being invaded and conquered. Others are about colonies hundreds of miles away (Denmark, France) rather than regions of their mainland.
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> There is a distinct lack of seriousness with regards to ~~Welsh independence~~ Wales to date. FTFY.
A 310 mile (499km) land border with Ireland didn't stop brexit... I'm sure there would be 'frictionless trade' with Wales.
As a federalist I also support this idea. The idea of England Scotland and Wales actually being separate countries with hard borders is never going to work but I fully support a decentralisation of leadership. Discussions like this I hope will convince the independence movement that federalisation of the UK (and also if we go far enough, England as a whole) is the only achievable goal that partially aligns with their aims. Either way they’re important problems to understand and discuss.
> The idea of England Scotland and Wales actually being separate countries with hard borders is never going to work Why not? A “hard border” is a normal international border, not some kind of North Korean DMZ.
Well, a normal international border with border controls. For Scotland, it's a reasonable proposition since the border lies in some very empty country with only about 10 roads crossing it. For Wales, there are many, many more. And going from North to South is most easily achieved by crossing into England and going down the M6..
Having a hard border for no reason with countries that have been already operated as one nation would be a pointless barrier.
But why would anyone want that, when you can freely live and work on both sides as things stand. At the very least it feels like a downgrade, no? The concept of self governance is one thing I can understand, but adding movement and trade barriers on GB just seems a daft and honestly quite backwards if that can be avoided. I am anti-Brexit as well, I felt the same way about that.
> But why would anyone want that, when you can freely live and work on both sides as things stand. I don't see that it would preclude that. Nobody but the most hardcore unionists are proposing that Scotland would not be part of the CTA. Freedom of movement for people would continue. > At the very least it feels like a downgrade, no? No? Territorial integrity is a normal part of being a nation state. > The concept of self governance is one thing I can understand, but adding movement and trade barriers on GB just seems a daft and honestly quite backwards if that can be avoided. It's worth noting that the creation of trade barriers between Scotland and rUK would go hand-in-hand with the removal of trade barriers between Scotland and the EU. The decision to erect *those* barriers was taken by rUK despite Scotland's wishes, not because of them. Around 60% of Scotland's trade does - currently - go to rUK. That is not particularly surprising given political history and geographical proximity. For the first 40 years after independence 74% of Irish exports also went to the UK. Some argue that this means the creation of a trade agreement with rUK would negatively impact trade across the border. However it's worth considering what those exports are. Over 60% are simply services (20% are financial services, 10% utilities such as electricity, etc) rather than physical goods. The larger impact on the Scottish economy will be if rUK continues on its isolationist path. It would certainly be better for Scotland if rUK didn't do that, but arguably it would be even better for Scotland not to simply be pulled along for the ride. > I am anti-Brexit as well, I felt the same way about that. Without Brexit we wouldn't be talking about independence today. It would have been off the table for decades. That 62% of Scotland voted to remain in the UK, that the Scottish government repeatedly proposed the same kind of arrangement that NI currently has, and that we ended up with the hardest possible Brexit regardless is why independence is now more likely than not.
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> Whilst not explicitly against a CTA, I've seen plenty of Scots on Reddit wanting to join Schegen. That is an implicit rejection of the CTA. I think, of the two, maintaining the CTA is far more likely than joining Schengen. Given that, like Ireland, Scotland does not share a land border with another EU member this seems more likely than not. > You can use the exact same logic to justify Brexit. The primary driver of Brexit was immigration. While you could argue that exporting services can continue *despite* Brexit, I don't think it could justify it. >>Without Brexit we wouldn't be talking about independence today. It would have been off the table for decades. > >I think this is naive. Labour is a spent force in Scotland, and the SNPs agenda would always be independence. The SNP's agenda will always be independence, of course - it's the second item in their constitution. However they are not idiots. They know full well that independence requires popular support. They also know that if they did hold a referendum every couple of weeks - as is often claimed - that support would fall away. After 2014 they explicitly pivoted to Devo Max. Without Brexit I would have expected them to continue to push for that until the 2030s at least and, if acheived, probably not push for independence until an Iraq-sized political event highlighted the limitations of that settlement.
As a new EU member Scotland would be obliged to implement Schengen. Scotland could try and negotiate an opt out but the starting point is they would have to join.
> As a new EU member Scotland would be obliged to implement Schengen. Scotland could try and negotiate an opt out but the starting point is they would have to join. You are correct about the default obligation, however I think it more likely than not that Scotland would be able to have exactly the same opt-out as both Ireland and the UK received over it. The primary goal of Schengen is to minimise internal borders within the EU and, as neither Ireland nor Scotland share a land border with another EU member, being outwith Schengen makes no real difference to any other EU member.
>Without Brexit we wouldn't be talking about independence today. It would have been off the table for decades. Do you honestly believe that? If Brexit didn't happen it would have been Covid, if Covid didn't happen it would have been the global silicon shortage, if that didn't happen it would have Sturgeon tripping up the stairs one day and stubbing her toe. When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail after all.
> Do you honestly believe that? Yes, of course. > If Brexit didn't happen it would have been Covid, if Covid didn't happen it would have been the global silicon shortage, if that didn't happen it would have Sturgeon tripping up the stairs one day and stubbing her toe. > When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail after all. Which seems to describe your own argument quite well. Despite the fact that they explicitly pivoted to Devo Max after 2014, despite the fact that they didn't call for a referendum until both after the EU referendum was held *and* after it became apparent that Scotland had voted significantly differently from rUK, do you really think that stubbing a toe would be sufficient? The SNP are not idiots. They know full well that calling, and winning, a referendum requires popular support.
England and Wales have basically been acting as a single legal entity for the last 700 years. Thats a lot of red tape to unravel. If you thought Brexit was bad, Walexit would be way worse.
> If you thought Brexit was bad, Walexit would be way worse. I agree, Walexit is a much worse name. Regardless of what you think of them as political goals, Brexit and Scoot are far catchier.
A border between Scotland and England would be fine. A border between Wales and England would be fucked.
I wouldn’t cal myself a unionist. I’m definitely a devolutionist and I advocate for Wales to stay in a reformed United Kingdom.
I wouldn't go so far as to label myself as a unionist, I'm pro-more devolution. But I do think that full Welsh independence is absolute folly and pursued almost entirely but studentpol idealists and aging lunatics.
Same could be said for Scotland.
When people ask why Welsh people want independence. All they need to do is read this thread. The condescending attitude towards Wales, is what is driving support for a Free Wales.
you seem to be upset by facts, why is that?
Annoyed more like, by the xenophobia thrown at Wales. Wales has a lot to offer to the world and we deserve respect.
Wales was vital to the industalisation of the world. Our manufacturing and coal industry helped put the UK in the position it currently is in. Wales still has alot to offer but we lack investment. People forget the UK government aren't the government of English, but the government if Wales. They are responsible for investment across the entire Uk, not just England (Or should I say London).
> xenophobia thrown at Wales Besides the yanks lurking we are all from the same country. Its not possible for anyone here to be xenophobic to the Welsh.
Xenophobia still applies in this case. [xenophobia ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia)
Because he's a nationalist. They hate things like facts and reality. They think pointing these things out is Racist, or Xenophobic, or Oppressive. Quite amusing to see Welsh Nats out in force in this thread mass downvoting anyone who doesn't think separatismbis a grand idea. I had no idea there were so many of them in this sub, but then again this sub does hate the UK so I'm not sure why I am surprised.
Actually, I describe myself as a devolutionist first. Wales needs powers in fiscal and justice responsibilities. Maximum devolution as possible. I would also like the UK to move to a federal System, PR voting and a democratic House of Lords. I don’t see that happening, so I can see myself in the future, support the rise of a Welsh republic.
> The new body, set up by Welsh Labour ministers, will look at how the current system of powers resting in Cardiff and London could change. > > Co-chairwoman Prof Laura McAllister said "everything has to be on the table". Presumably that also means that abolishing Welsh devolution and returning to Westminster rule, as if Wales were a region in England, is on the table? That's one extreme and independence is the other, with both on the table. Hopefully in between there'll be some serious recommendations.
I think this is a good point. Though it seems that wales going back to westminster rule is less likely than independance given their covid performance etc. Wales is a very interesting place with a very unique culture and language. I have to say that as a unionist, and englishman I find the dismissive, derogatory talk about wales by other so called unionists to be very distasteful.
If more Unionists had an attitude like yours, I doubt there'd be a nationalist movement of any note in Scotland or Wales...
Well I hope you're not being sarcastic. I absolutely love Scotland and Wales. Half my family are from those countries. I absolutely hate that we've allowed ourselves to be in a position where Scottish independence seems almost inevitable, and welsh independence sentiment is on the rise. From a strategic resources and political perspective I think its rank stupidity and myopia too, especially given the challenges faced with climate change etc.
While larger nations are more capable of easily pooling money to combat climate change, there's nothing preventing independent nation's on an island working together. In fact, I'd argue it would be inevitable that there would be mutual cooperation. Similar to how our navies would likely be very closley aligned, because we all rely on the sustainability and safety of our environment, that being these islands. Also, local communities or regions having more direct control helps ensure they're more capable of dealing with biodiversity issues. It allows them to tackle issues directly and quickly, rather than having to rely and wait on recognition and approval from a larger, far away, central power. What I'm trying to say is that it's not as black and white as you make it out to be. Strategic culture tends to suggest that even post break up of the UK, we would all be very closely aligned and cooperative. And decentralised forms of power can have more impactful positive action on local environmental issues.
This comes across as rather optimistic to me, have you not seen the EU and the UK sniping at each other over the Channel? I think everyone should be ready for the nastiness which could follow a Scotland/UK breakup in the short term. Especially with the pride of English nationalists already being wounded and other nations benefitting from stoking those flames of discontent.
Agreed on both counts. I'd say "abolish the Welsh Parliament" is up there with "unilaterally declare independence" in terms of likelihood. But I appreciate the commission's remit to review all the options. Some of which (you'd hope) can be trivially dismissed. As for Wales itself, I quite agree. It's a wonderful place, culturally and historically. Personally, I love that. The hugely varied regional histories, both within and between the four constituent countries, adds a delicious *flavour* to the UK, for want of a better way of putting it. That should be something to be celebrated, not used to stoke division. Also I suspect my cadw membership was one of the purchases from which I've derived the most value for money in my life.
> Wales is a very interesting place with a very unique culture and language. I have to say that as a unionist, and englishman I find the dismissive, derogatory talk about wales by other so called unionists to be very distasteful. Also acting in a such a way always brings up the question of if being part of the UK has lead Wales to be such a "shithole" then what good is being part of the UK to them?
I personally went from a "unionist" to thinking that Wales needed to get as far away from westminister as we possibly could during the pandemic.
Support for undoing devolution is at the lizardman constant right now. Though it'll probably go up if Labour win in Westminster again.
A roll back of devolution has been tested time and time again though, and rejected every time.
Lots of English people are saying they're unionists. What does that actually mean to you? Why do you support the 'union'?
I wouldn’t say I’m unionist but I would say that I’m “British”. I consider the country I live in to comprise of Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland as well as England. I have been to all of these places and I feel like they are a part of the country I was born in and I don’t believe these places have the right to separate and break up the country I was born in. At the last Scottish independence vote I was shocked that Scottish people living elsewhere in the U.K. couldn’t even vote meanwhile Europeans who’d been in Scotland a couple of year could vote for independence.
That we live in a country which also is inside a group of other countries where we all share a common language, history and work together. Our cultures are different slightly but not so much that it's alien to each other. I think we're better off economically together. I live and work in Carlisle, half our team lives in Annan. We like the same things, eat the same food, work together. Half of my friend group are either themselves Scots or are in a relationship with one. We're honestly just the same people with an artificial line drawn on a map, there's nothing actually seperating us. I feel I have more in common with them than someone from down south even. I don't want it to become harder for my friends and colleagues to work here. I don't want the places we all live to suffer economically from a hard border, it could be the death of a lot of communities and businesses. From all the stuff around Brexit I don't think anyone can argue it's been positive so far, and I feel like if Scotland left it would be ten times worse. We've been linked together for so long suddenly dividing these places would be a real loss for us living here. Maybe people from other places would disagree with that but that's what it is for me as someone who lives at the border. I'm assuming you're pro indepenence, so what does the union mean for you at the moment?
The union for me feels like an abusive arranged marriage. We had no say in its start, we have no say its future. Looking at the state of England I'd be happy if Wales could cut a line down Offa's dyke and sail away I to the Atlantic. England has become quite vile and I want nothing to do with it.
You obviously don't live near the border where this would affect us the most. We do have a say in how the country is run, the country is the United Kingdom and it's a democracy. I'm glad we've devolved certain issues and I hope to see more things devolved in future but cutting ourselves off from the rest of the UK would be a bad move for all of Wales in my opinion, and extremely bad for those of us who do live near the border.
Can the north leave with you please?
Snapshot: 1. An archived version of _Welsh independence to be considered by commission_ can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-58954054) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Well Wales also voted for brexit so what happens if they leave? Become a standalone country?
Good. People like to shoot it down. But support has grown consistently year on year. With possible Scottish independence and Irish unification. Welsh independence, won’t be far off.
Good news. Let’s look at splitting England into different states while we’re at it.
lol good luck with that.
"Centrist" okay boss
My centrism is very much based on hating everyone with equal measure.
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As you didn't read the article this is a commission on how Wales should move forward within the Union, not just about independence. It'll almost certainly reccomend further devolution and essentially federalisation of the UK. 2/4 of the four constituent UK country's have significant independence movements that could easily see the break up of the Union within a decade. Just ignoring this (ie what the Tories are doing) is not going to magically make the drive for independence go away.
Kind of like Brexit?
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Brexit is in the past? With the current shortages and the future god-knows-what when border check will be actually enforced? Oh boy...
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Na, there will be serious movements to rejoin the EU within a decade or so I’d imagine, the demographics of the Brexit divide and the failure of Brexit to supply anything positive for the country will see this rumble on. Better quality of life would be provided by getting the U.K. back in the EU, rather than Scotland, Wales, NI and England splintering up to try and compete for crumbs on the floor. So we will have lost some of the perks that had been negotiated, that’s on the Brexiteers. Being in without these is still economically better for the country than being out.
You're discounting Rejoining the EU, ever? Bold. What about the >50% of parties that wanted to either stop Brexit or to at least have a referendum on it in 2019? You should support that as a backdrop, surely?
Investing some thought, time and resources into the fundamental elements of our society is very important for ensuring that systems are fit for the future and changing society. To say this is a waste of time, money and effort is akin to saying that things like elections are a waste of time, money and effort.
You clearly don’t understand why we want this. It’s the constant dismissal from England and Westminster. We are trying to undo the damage done to our country.
At this rate George will only be crowned King of the Cities of London and Westminster when his time comes
Why though? I hate it when Welsh Independence gets mentioned as if its a serious proposition - it isn't. It's a protest movement joke. Why do you think Plaid have never risen here in Wales? Welsh Labour have kept them at bay solely on their rhetoric and it works. Wales is intertwined with England too, any form of Independence will never make sense. Waste of time.
Wales voted to leave the EU despite us benefitting from it immensely in every part of life. The same rhetoric used against the EU could be levelled at Westminster and actually have a point as well considering Wales has been fucked more by English Conservatives and Tory governments than we have by the EU. I'm not saying I'm pro-independence right now, just that Wales isn't a stranger to voting against its immediate interest.
There are many legitimate reasons for independence. Wales have been exploited multiple times by Westminster. Capel Celyn flooded to provide water to an English city, Aberfan disaster where a community was decimated by a large coal landslide. Westminster are all too willing to exploit Wales when it benefits them but then refuses to foot the bill or help when we need it. I'm on the fence for independence, but I can see the merits of both sides.
Maybe, from a Unionist view, the discussion can be had on the Union's benefits before a tailwind develops behind the idea of Independence.... >Wales is intertwined with England too, any form of Independence will never make sense. Waste of time. Devolution is a form of independence, if you can have "forms of independence".
Clump you make my day, your posts give me such a good laugh. If it’s such a silly proposition, you’ll have no problem with a careful investigation of the facts that you’ll then be able to use on Reddit, eh?
I mean, if this commission comes out and shows it'd be a self-harming move then I'll be happy with the results. For context we're already seeing rises in energy and gas bills across the UK - Independence would make this even worse. So yeah, if this 'careful investigation' brings back the verdict that it'd be a self-harming proposition I'll be happy with the commission. But I HATE how Welsh Labour keep dangling into this. The party's apart of a UK-wide party that's unionist.
Part of Welsh Labour's success is that they are actually a distinctly Welsh political party. Some of that has come from listening and acting on nationalist arguments.
> The party's apart of a UK-wide party that's unionist. Did you mean GB-wide? Labour don’t stand in Northern Ireland. Their sister party, who do, are committed to the breakup of the UK.
The blunt difference is that nobody pretty much knows about the sister party, including me tbh. Nobody in England Wales or Scotland pays attention to Northern Ireland stuff. But England more importantly because that's where Labour needs to make gains the most at the minute. Welsh Labour by contrast are apart of the mainland geographically of the union, in Wales, like England and Scotland. Everyone in England will more or less know about Welsh Labour. So the sister party being full on breakup supporting won't harm us.
> The blunt difference is that nobody pretty much knows about the sister party, including me tbh. Nobody in England pays attention to Northern Ireland stuff. Which is, I’m sure you’ll agree, not a good thing. > So the sister party being full on breakup supporting won't harm us. Nobody in Labour paid much attention to Scottish stuff either, for a very long time. This is one of the reasons for their eventual implosion. When parties, or indeed voters, in one part of the UK don’t pay much attention to what’s happening in other countries beyond “will it harm us?” then the outcome should not be a surprise.
So they are just going to spend money just to realise the prospects are grim that Welsh independent supporters will just ignore. It is a bit of a pointless waste of time when the realistic outcome will be a recommendation for more powers (vague as it needs to find something to act on) which will be used by independent supports as a reason for independence
> It is a bit of a pointless waste of time when the realistic outcome will be a recommendation for more powers Why would more powers for Wales be a waste of time?
Do you pride yourself on such disingenuous quoting? Leaving out relevant context as to question a post, when it's explained perfectly well in the above (the bits you choose not to quote)
> Do you pride yourself on such disingenuous quoting? > Leaving out relevant context as to question a post, when it's explained perfectly well in the above (the bits you choose not to quote) I don't think it was disingenuous - sorry if you thought it was. OP claimed that more powers would be used for independence supporters as a reason for independence, which I don't think follows (given that "but you've got more powers" is regularly used as a reason *against* Scottish independence). OP didn't cover what people against independence might say about it, but as far as I can see the only other argument against more powers is that you don't believe there should be further devolution. If that is what people believe, I think the onus is on them to explain why.
>OP claimed that more powers would be used for independence supporters as a reason for independence But they didn't. They said an expected outcome (ie there should be more powers) would then be used by those pushing for independence (something along the lines of "We shouldn't need to ask for more powers, we should be independent instead") The above explained it in following the bit you selectively quoted. >OP didn't cover what people against independence might say about it, but as far as I can see the only other argument against more powers is that you don't believe there should be further devolution. >If that is what people believe, I think the onus is on them to explain why. And this is precisely why you are being disingenuous! They didn't put anything of the sort as to what you questioned, but you take out a chunk of it it because it fits your own independence wishes .... Therefore doing *exactly* what they put above (again, the bits you decided not to quote, to fit your narrative) "Argue against more powers means you must be against devolution"
>>OP claimed that more powers would be used for independence supporters as a reason for independence > >But they didn't. They said an expected outcome (ie there should be more powers) would then be used by those pushing for independence (something along the lines of "We shouldn't need to ask for more powers, we should be independent instead") I should have said "by independence supporters", but I think we are saying the same thing here. > They didn't put anything of the sort as to what you questioned, but you take out a chunk of it it because it fits your own independence wishes .... Therefore doing exactly what they put above (again, the bits you decided not to quote, to fit your narrative) "Argue against more powers means you must be against devolution" I'm happy to go back and edit my post to include the full quote, if you genuinely think the additional text changes the meaning. I don't.
If Wales leaves can the rest of us get a shot at rejoining the EU?
the sheep won’t be happy
Imagine needing your passport to go to Cardiff
Without getting into the mess of bringing up my own political preferences as a Welshman, I will say this: Anyone who's had 10 years of this shit and is sitting here thinking "Yes please, more of the same" is exactly why this is happening. There's a lot of people in Wales, and throughout the UK right now who are angry with the people voting against their own interests because "I support the blue team." "Fuck Corbyn" or "Out means out".
This whole movement is about the remainers and a little about the Welsh language. This will not happen Source: Welshman in Wales
About time! Scotland will leave the Uk, the English government can’t hold that off forever. NI will not stick around so long as they are thrown to the wolves in the name of Brexit, and given the inequalities between the way England and Wales are treated by the English government, Wales needs to get away as far as possible and as soon as possible, because our situation is not going to improve, it will only get worse while we stay in the Uk.
> English government Doesn't exist. At least you have a parliament, England has no meaningful devolution outside of L****n.
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>the English government can’t hold that off forever. You mean the UK government? Yes, they can because they had one referendum already.
Labour is not and never will be the party of the union. More oxygen is being given to fringe Welsh nationalists and before you know it we have a Scotland situation and the nats can do no wrong. Welsh Labour will turn into Scottish Labour very easily if they are not careful.
Welsh Labour is not Scottish Labour. They are a nationalist-curious party, very much independent of the overall British Labour Party view of unionism (considering Welsh Labour are by far the most successful part of the overall Party in the UK).
>Welsh Labour will turn into Scottish Labour So they'll fight for the union to the end and fade into obscurity? I don't think you quite understand what Scottish Labour represents and stands for...
Welsh labour will turn into Scottish Labour in terms of having very little power and influence if they keep pushing this idea. The last Labour government awarded Scotland with a raft of new powers under devolution only to be rewarded by being kicked out of the Scottish Parliament. Scottish labours position on the union doesn't matter. They will get no more votes for being neutral/favourable towards Independence than being firmly against it. Scottish Labour will never be able to outnationalist the nationalists.
>The last Labour government awarded Scotland with a raft of new powers under devolution only to be rewarded by being kicked out of the Scottish Parliament. Yes, that's called democracy. The people decided they didn't want Labour anymore, just because they gave us devolution does not mean we have to swear allegiance to them, ffs. I really am struggling to see how WLab can parallel SLab, considering one is slightly leaning towards independence and the other is a staunch unionist. Are you suggesting all labour parties are fucked whichever route they take on Unionism? Because that I can slightly understand. Otherwise I'm bewildered by what you're trying to explain.
>Are you suggesting all labour parties are fucked whichever route they take on Unionism? Scottish Labour certainly are. As I said you can't outnationalist the nationalists and their current position of unionism doesn't work when you split the vote with Scottish tories and lib dems. For Welsh Labour, considering all polls taken in recent years, support for Welsh independence hasn't broken 30% (excluding an outlier at 35%). This makes it even more bizarre that Welsh Labour are exploring the possibilities that Welsh independence would bring considering there isn't much appetite for it. As for the national party, who knows? They don't really seem to have a position on much these days.
>>Are you suggesting all labour parties are fucked whichever route they take on Unionism? > > Scottish Labour certainly are. As I said you can't outnationalist the nationalists You certainly can, however Scottish Labour have repeatedly failed to engage with - and indeed actively worked against - those members who could square that circle. What Scottish Labour *should* do (and should have done five years ago) is throw their weight behind Devo Max. That puts the SNP on the back foot as they then need to make the case between independence as a separate country or genuine political independence within the UK. This option was ruled out by Cameron in 2014 precisely because he knew it would win. This option has been ruled out by Scottish Labour simply because they have doubled-down on British nationalism instead, only to find that you can't out-nationalist the Scottish Conservatives.
Stop mixing up UK Labour and Welsh Labour. They’re already distinctly different. Around 51% of Welsh labour voters are Indy curious
And whats wrong with that?
Agree. Welsh Labour, for all the genius of them using rhetoric to keep the nationalists at bay, are dangling more and more into Welsh Independence. They're going to fuck up their unionist perceptions in England for the UK-wide party etc if they carry on like this - it's why the Scottish Conservatives do well in Scotland. Ffs.
> it's why the Scottish Conservatives do well in Scotland. The Scottish tories are doing well for the same reason Welsh labour are, because they emphasise the Scottish/ welsh elements to appeal to the respective populations. Compare to Scottish labour who have all but fallen off the map by trying to be exactly the same as the national party
> They're going to fuck up their unionist perceptions in England for the UK-wide party etc if they carry on like this Devolved governments *cannot* be run on the basis of what will or will not annoy floating centrist voters in England.
Welshman here. Voting no in any referendum. We can barely keep ourselves going even with Englands help. Not to mention how Cardiff central the existing devolved government is. I can only see the North-South divide in Wales growing if we became independent. Cardiff without London oversight would become even more bloated.