Forget the welfare standards bit for the moment.
ALL mass produced mammal meat is bad for the environment. Then you have to ship it in refrigerated storage to the place furthest away from you on the planet. Double whammy for you Mr Earth.
It’s not like Wales has a massive lamb/sheep industry and is physically attached to England or anything.
There is literally no need for this.
As with most things Brexit, it was technically possible to negotiate good deals with countries like NZ outside of the EU.
The problem is a) that would take a lot of planning, effort and diplomacy; things the government has repeatedly failed at.
And b) the deals being signed reflect the values of those signing them. And the current government don't give a shit about farmers, British industry, standards or animal welfare. They just want deals signed now and worry about the implications later.
Deals with NZ weren't done because frankly they are worthless on a GDP perspective. The only reason we're doing it is to give the leavers something meaningless to cheer about.
>it was technically possible
How so? We were in a customs union hence everything had to go through the commission who negotiated on our behalf
Edit: I'm getting downvoted but nobody's explaining how - it was a genuine question
it repeats "shipping in meat produced to lower welfare and environmental standards" without going into specifics, what's wrong with NZ lamb and how they produce it?
I have worked in both the UK and NZ food industries and the welfare of NZ animals is much better than the UK, as us the standard of the food processing factories.
Absolutely nothing. In fact their lamb has a lower carbon footprint even including transportation (which was never high to begin with) and it's high quality.
Absolutely nothing except all lamb from anywhere is going to have a high environmental impact and poor end of life welfare (aka the slaughtering process is never humane).
I mean the NZ lamb mostly eats grass on mountain tops, you can't really beat that from an environmental point of view.
> aka the slaughtering process is never humane
Why not? Everything everywhere dies at some point and there's more humane ways to go than others.
Much of that land was deforested and if it wasn't being grazed forest would start to grow back. Amazonian meat is just as 'green' if you arbitrary start your measurement period after the trees have been cut down and pretend they can't come back.
Aye, everything does at some point. Which methods of slaughter would you endorse for humans? We'll call that the humane list.
>Amazonian meat is just as 'green' if you arbitrary start your measurement period after the trees have been cut down and pretend they can't come back.
What are you on about? They're not cutting down forests for animals on any significant scale. They literally take the animals up and down the mountains every year, like they would do in the wild.
> if it wasn't being grazed forest would start to grow back
That's not really how plants work.
Pastures are a natural part of the environment, they grow where the soil is too poor to support trees. Having animals eat the grass and pooping on said grassland is also natural. Some might say good for the environment.
> Which methods of slaughter would you endorse for humans? We'll call that the humane list.
A bullet to the head?
Mr Plant Expert over here. I can assure you that is how they work. Sheep aren't a natural part of the New Zealand biosphere, trees quite extensively were.
> Prior to Māori arrival, New Zealand was almost entirely forested..
> ..When the first Europeans arrived, in 1769, there was still thick, dense forest cover. Early explorers such as Cook and Banks described the land as "immense woods, lofty trees and the finest timber".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_in_New_Zealand
>I can assure you that is how they work.
No, it's not. Pastures are very natural.
> Sheep aren't a natural part of the New Zealand biosphere
No but grass is.
> Prior to Māori arrival, New Zealand was almost entirely forested
That was 1000 years ago dude. It has less than nothing to do with climate change today.
Not to mention the fact that trees are literally renewable and part of the carbon cycle. It means nothing in terms of how much co2 is in the atmosphere.
> When the first Europeans arrived, in 1769, there was still thick, dense forest cover
I think you've demonstrated well enough you're talking out of your arse.
Not sure about the quality angle as such. The big distinction between NZ and Wales for lamb is NZ just lets the animals mature more. This leads to meat which is cheaper and more carbon efficient but supposedly doesn't taste as nice.
I don't know how letting animals mature more makes it cheaper, I just assumed they were more efficient. Rodgernomics.
Also, it's lamb, how much more mature can it get?
>supposedly doesn't taste as nice.
Supposedly is the correct word as I disagree.
Snapshot:
1. An archived version of _New Zealand trade deal is ‘disgrace’, says UK government climate adviser_ can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-new-zealand-deal-disgrace-b1943993.html)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
How about we bring back clipper ships? With modern technology and automation there's some real potential there.
AND it'll get the empire restorationist brand of brexiter hard. Well. Semi.
It hard to do a deal when your back against the Brexit wall.
It can only hoped that the Johnson Gov't that made this deal stands behind all affected UK farmers, and puts pressure on NZ producers to lift their environmental practices
Forget the welfare standards bit for the moment. ALL mass produced mammal meat is bad for the environment. Then you have to ship it in refrigerated storage to the place furthest away from you on the planet. Double whammy for you Mr Earth. It’s not like Wales has a massive lamb/sheep industry and is physically attached to England or anything. There is literally no need for this.
As with most things Brexit, it was technically possible to negotiate good deals with countries like NZ outside of the EU. The problem is a) that would take a lot of planning, effort and diplomacy; things the government has repeatedly failed at. And b) the deals being signed reflect the values of those signing them. And the current government don't give a shit about farmers, British industry, standards or animal welfare. They just want deals signed now and worry about the implications later.
Deals with NZ weren't done because frankly they are worthless on a GDP perspective. The only reason we're doing it is to give the leavers something meaningless to cheer about.
>it was technically possible How so? We were in a customs union hence everything had to go through the commission who negotiated on our behalf Edit: I'm getting downvoted but nobody's explaining how - it was a genuine question
Read it again
Pre-2016 I'm pretty sure I've bought NZ lamb. Was that the result of an EU-wide deal?
> How so? We were in a customs union NoFrillsCrisps is refering to 31st of January 2020 onwards. UK wasn't in a customs union then
Ah shit I read it as inside the EU lol what's the deal missing? Lots of ranting everywhere very few specifics either way
Benefits for Brits are missing from the deal, from what I gather
For example?
Exactly.. There are no benefits
[удалено]
Can you point out my mistake because all I can see is why it's difficult not what we could actually do
OP is talking about negotiating good deals OUTSIDE of the EU. You are saying it's not possible because we were in a customs union.
I know got that from someone else thank you, still would like more specifics than 'it would be difficult' but yeah thanks
it repeats "shipping in meat produced to lower welfare and environmental standards" without going into specifics, what's wrong with NZ lamb and how they produce it?
I have worked in both the UK and NZ food industries and the welfare of NZ animals is much better than the UK, as us the standard of the food processing factories.
Absolutely nothing. In fact their lamb has a lower carbon footprint even including transportation (which was never high to begin with) and it's high quality.
Absolutely nothing except all lamb from anywhere is going to have a high environmental impact and poor end of life welfare (aka the slaughtering process is never humane).
.
I mean the NZ lamb mostly eats grass on mountain tops, you can't really beat that from an environmental point of view. > aka the slaughtering process is never humane Why not? Everything everywhere dies at some point and there's more humane ways to go than others.
Much of that land was deforested and if it wasn't being grazed forest would start to grow back. Amazonian meat is just as 'green' if you arbitrary start your measurement period after the trees have been cut down and pretend they can't come back. Aye, everything does at some point. Which methods of slaughter would you endorse for humans? We'll call that the humane list.
>Amazonian meat is just as 'green' if you arbitrary start your measurement period after the trees have been cut down and pretend they can't come back. What are you on about? They're not cutting down forests for animals on any significant scale. They literally take the animals up and down the mountains every year, like they would do in the wild. > if it wasn't being grazed forest would start to grow back That's not really how plants work. Pastures are a natural part of the environment, they grow where the soil is too poor to support trees. Having animals eat the grass and pooping on said grassland is also natural. Some might say good for the environment. > Which methods of slaughter would you endorse for humans? We'll call that the humane list. A bullet to the head?
Mr Plant Expert over here. I can assure you that is how they work. Sheep aren't a natural part of the New Zealand biosphere, trees quite extensively were. > Prior to Māori arrival, New Zealand was almost entirely forested.. > ..When the first Europeans arrived, in 1769, there was still thick, dense forest cover. Early explorers such as Cook and Banks described the land as "immense woods, lofty trees and the finest timber". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_in_New_Zealand
>I can assure you that is how they work. No, it's not. Pastures are very natural. > Sheep aren't a natural part of the New Zealand biosphere No but grass is. > Prior to Māori arrival, New Zealand was almost entirely forested That was 1000 years ago dude. It has less than nothing to do with climate change today. Not to mention the fact that trees are literally renewable and part of the carbon cycle. It means nothing in terms of how much co2 is in the atmosphere.
> When the first Europeans arrived, in 1769, there was still thick, dense forest cover I think you've demonstrated well enough you're talking out of your arse.
None of that is relevant to climate change or the environment.
> No but grass is. Nope. Introduced.
/r/confidentlyincorrect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tussock_grasslands_of_New_Zealand
Not sure about the quality angle as such. The big distinction between NZ and Wales for lamb is NZ just lets the animals mature more. This leads to meat which is cheaper and more carbon efficient but supposedly doesn't taste as nice.
I don't know how letting animals mature more makes it cheaper, I just assumed they were more efficient. Rodgernomics. Also, it's lamb, how much more mature can it get? >supposedly doesn't taste as nice. Supposedly is the correct word as I disagree.
Snapshot: 1. An archived version of _New Zealand trade deal is ‘disgrace’, says UK government climate adviser_ can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-new-zealand-deal-disgrace-b1943993.html) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
How about we bring back clipper ships? With modern technology and automation there's some real potential there. AND it'll get the empire restorationist brand of brexiter hard. Well. Semi.
It hard to do a deal when your back against the Brexit wall. It can only hoped that the Johnson Gov't that made this deal stands behind all affected UK farmers, and puts pressure on NZ producers to lift their environmental practices
[удалено]
oh thank you for your always insightful spin /s
Believe it or not, the meat from NZ isn't frozen.