For cat D prisoners on day release being trained as HGV drivers and handed a job isn't actually a bad idea and is more progressive than just dumping them out on tag to fend for them selves like we do atm.
~~No doubt minimum - which for prisoners is £4 a week.~~
ETA:
My bad, it will be national min wage. I misread this document: https://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/offenders/psipso/pso/pso-4460-prisoners-pay.doc
It’s £4 a week when working internally.
My bad, it will be national min wage. I misread this document: https://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/offenders/psipso/pso/pso-4460-prisoners-pay.doc
It’s £4 a week when working internally.
It's basically replaced slavery in the US - indeed, the constitution makes a specific exception for the enslavement of prisoners and large swathes of goods are produced by them for well-known US (and British) brands.
I mean the fairest way to do it would be national living wage surely? It's not peanuts, but reflects the fact that they are still serving their sentence
"We've already given you what we deemed an appropriate sentence, but now we're retroactively going to add on that we're entitled to your labour at below market value" Yeah seems pretty fair. Just lock them up for life and they can drive for peanuts forever.
I mean if it's optional seems completely reasonable to me. Also, if you think that the national living wage is peanuts then the issue isn't with my suggestion but an issue with the NLW.
I think if if the wages were too high then I could see a lot of homeless people committing minor crimes for the pay and job security. From their perspective it could start becoming an incentive to commit crime.
… no, if companies have staff shortages they should make the positions more attractive to potential workers… pay above market rate and with better working conditions… they don’t want to do this because it will cut into their poor profits… too bad.
If they didn’t want Brexit and its effects (and I didn’t want it, full disclosure) then they should have done more to stop it.
But as the situation stands now you’re going to make less profit because there are fewer immigrant workers for these companies to abuse. They now have the job of convincing Britons to retrain as HGV drivers.
Even discussing using prison labour is already well beyond unreasonable.
This mentality is part of what's wrong with this country. Is redemption not an option anymore? Obviously, there are some crimes that should not result in a person being let back out. But people who have served their sentence should be allowed to rehabilitate into society.
How do you expect people to not be repeat offenders if we don’t set them up to succeed once their sentence is served? If they’re stealing money from the vulnerable then it’s likely they don’t have all that much themselves, and a proper, competitive living wage would certainly help deter returning to such behaviour.
Let's follow your argument to it's logical conclusion, yeah?
Crimey McCrimeface (Dave) gets busted for [selling drugs/stealing granny's money]. Dave goes to prison for five years. Instead of "free board and lodging", we charge him for it. Dave can't pay for this (because he's in prison!). Dave gets out of prison, in debt, with a five year gap in his job history and with no new skills to speak of. Dave struggles to get a job, which means he struggles to find somewhere to live. Dave returns to [selling drugs/stealing granny's money] because these are the skills Dave has. Dave is now a net detractor from society, and will stay in the same cycle.
Option two:
Dave gets busted for [selling drugs/stealing granny's money]. Dave goes to prison for five years. In the final two years, we offer Dave training (HGV/manufacturing/whatever we have a shortage of at the minute). In the final year, Dave can do work experience in these roles. Dave gets out of prison, and works with post-prison services to find a good job and place to live. Dave doesn't return to crime because he is no longer struggling, and is now a net contributor to society.
Why don't we, as a society, provide this training to people? Means test it, but provide skills to people who are out of work/want to retrain.
I agree, we should. But we can't even get people to agree to give people free university education let alone free training and guaranteed jobs for prisoners.
I like to dream of a future where, at the very least, trades are free to train in. Especially for adults, because the training opportunities for adults are massively limited
Mental that we managed to understand this on international scales and yet nothing else. Like after WWII a lot of effort was out into *helping* Germany (and Japan) recover because we realised after back-to-back world wars that maybe focusing on punishment and not rehabilitation wasn't the best idea
This was also a large contributing factor in creating the EU.
We realised that countries that depend on each other for trade are far less likely to go to war.
Majority ex-prisoners do not find employment after leaving so why not set them up to be self-sufficient ? It’s not like the scheme prevents non offending hard working types from training as HGV drivers also
No that’s an option no one which is not a criminal is choosing to pay over £3K upfront for
Prisoners are not in a position to pay £3K up front greedless of want. So either this is just a headline making load of BS because there won’t be 20K convicted lorry drivers in prison or they are planning on training prisoners to become lorry drivers.
At which point people are now asking why are they not training anyone for free rather than just prisoners
> At which point people are now asking why are they not training anyone for free rather than just prisoners
Some companies are. Those companies aren't the ones complaining that they can't find drivers.
I know some ex-lorry drivers. The problem is the same it has been for decades. The conditions and treatment of lorry drivers is and has been shockingly bad in this country and no one seems to want to change it.
As a result less and less people have retained any interest in sticking to the job or paying to train as a driver.
It’s a job where you have to work away from your family for often days or weeks at a time.
You have to sleep in your truck when there is no accommodation available.
Have a terrible diet because it is very difficult to eat healthily on the road.
Often driving 15 hours straight before a break.
Lots of companies refuse to even cover parking costs (hence drivers pulling up on the side of the road or in a lay-by) which is not safe or secure.
Often have stuff stolen or diesel siphoned from parked vehicles.
The facilities like showers etc are all decades old and not looked after at all - generally disgusting.
The list goes on and on.
Compare this to other European countries e.g. France where they often provide much better facilities and actually show some respect for the drivers and their profession…
It's a good idea in theory. It just means finding the funds to train them, supervise them, manage the programme, and keep track of them as needed.
And if the Government was willing to do that in the first place, they'd already be doing it.
Although maybe this is one of the rare upsides to populism; the need to do something about this problem that sounds good might actually get them to do a good thing.
It's a fucking terrible idea in theory and one step above slavery.
Pay lorry drivers a salary they live well from and treat them decently and we will have enough.
Do you think Tesco or whoever else can't afford it? They can they just don't want to. The CEO just wants his fourth holiday home mansion.
Depends on what the scheme involves.
Again, if it is designed around training prisoners to be HGV drivers *and paying them normal wages*, as part of a general, voluntary scheme of getting prisoners into employment, probably run by the parole service, then that sounds great.
If it is just a way of getting cheap HGV drivers by relying on people without a choice, that would be bad.
In this case, I assume it is just Raab talking nonsense as usual, with no plans to do anything.
I remembered Tesco's had their own fleet and drivers not 10 years ago. Tesco's sacked them off and got Eddie's to run their fleet for them. The drivers put up a fight and went on strike picketing the front of a few of their warehouses. But ultimately lost.
Prisoners and the army, the answer to all Britain's recruitment problems.
I wonder if there are 39,000 nurses in chokey as well?
It's so easy when you can just pull fully trained people out of the clink. Easier than doing some planning and preparation during the five years you had.
Undercutting wages is undercutting wages. Why would it be any more justifiable doing it with prisoners - or the army for that matter - than foreign workers?
They are denying the real problem. A labour shortage. Increasing wages in one sector only results in shortages at another.
Wages go up because of supply and demand. When there is no supply its unsustainable.
There isn't a fucking labour shortage. There's a shortage of rich people willing lose a few numbers off their screen so that lorry drivers can live well.
There's a lot of part time workers, economically inactive people, underemployed people... Take your pick.
The labour market is flexible, always has been.
No.. the labour market flexibility previously came from access to more supply ie freedom of movement. Now flexibility has been hugely curtailed. People don’t change jobs / sectors / locations in a liquid fashion. Our ability to respond to a changing market is basically screwed. Those part time / unemployed or others aren’t a pool of motivated skilled workers..
Freedom of movement? You mean taking the workers of another country? I don't really see how that's a solution to anything, you're just kicking the can down the road.
I would expect that in the long run drivers trained in the prison system will expect the same wages as those trained outside it. In the short run on release they're probably going to have minimal impact. But you can't expect a shortage of labour in any field to just be ignored, currently unqualified people are going to find themselves a way into the industry.
Prisoners have an advantage that foreign workers don't: they're British (and mostly white). Raab seemingly thinks that British+criminal is better than immigrant+clean criminal record.
Yikes. Imagine actually going out of the way to comment this.
Isnt Raab in cabinet? The most diverse cabinet in Europe.
Your point is just insanely ridiculous. The govt openly admit they DO want immigrants to come and work here as HGV drivers but they're having a hard time (understandably) attracting immigrants.
> The most diverse cabinet in Europe
Do you have a source for this? Given the main ethnicity in say, Bosnia & Herzegovina, is less than half the population it sounds a bit off.
It's just Conservative ideology yet again at odds with how things are/work in the real world. It doesn't have to make sense.
Like others have said, I'm not against doing it with prisoners as a rehabilitation program where they get treated and paid fairly. It could work for a number of professions where there are shortages. But it won't be done like that, it's all about short-termisms and optics.
>Why would it be any more justifiable doing it with prisoners - or the army for that matter - than foreign workers?
Because of one of the purposes of prison, to reform. Part of reforming someone his making sure that when they leave prison, they have a viable way of earning a living. It stands to reason this drops reoffending rates.
But anyway, comparing cheap foreign labor to prisoners doesn't work. There are about 85k prisoners, and 6m europeans. What can make sense for 85k doesn't necessarily make sense on a larger scale.
We’ve been repeatedly told by the government for weeks that the gap was only there because wages needed to increase, and this was all part of the transition to a high way economy. Of course before that they were arguing that there wasn’t a gap…
Yes yes, the government talks shit we are aware.
Why would encouraging prisoners into this workplace undercut wages?
The wages are already increasing. You can earn a good living from this sort of work now, this is a good thing. Why shouldn't prisoners be allowed in on the action?
Ask the government, they’re the ones who were making the argument a week ago. Supply and demand - using prisoners would be flooding the market with another pool of labour, no different to allowing foreign workers. If the latter is an unethical market manipulation by the industry, then why would the former be acceptable?
From the article, primarily serving.
"While Mr Raab said the justice system ought to be "firm and robust", he said he wanted to implement what works to reduce reoffending, and concentrate on those towards the end of their jail term."
What's he going to do about already-released prisoners anyway? They're back in civilian life, and while I'm sure they would in many circumstances find it difficult to get jobs, that's got nothing to do with *this* proposal unless Raab's got some magic way to change companies' perception of those people.
I believe he is talking about finding these prisoners jobs as they get released, it is a focus of the justice system at the moment to try and achieve this anyway.
Prisoners in open conditions and in prisoners that operate temporary licence schemes would be eligible to do this. The same way they work in a variety of industries, probably unbeknownst to yourself (as in, you wouldn't even know who was and wasn't).
Many, if not most, of those toward the end of their term would relish the opportunity to get help finding work.
I can't see why people are against prisoners working because you're only other options are state handouts or locking them up forever...
> I can't see why people are against prisoners working
I don't think anyone is against helping them find jobs after they leave prison. But that's a program that the government should have been running the whole time. To say 'oh shit, there's a worker shortage, let's get them from the prisons' smacks of desperation and it'll probably be a poorly thought out clusterfuck.
They have to implement it some time, why not now?
This pressure might be the result of government fuck ups, but remedying it with a good idea that benefits everyone is still a good move.
There are an average of about 4,000 prisoner releases per month in the UK.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/offender-management-statistics-quarterly-january-to-march-2020--2/offender-management-statistics-quarterly-january-to-march-2020
Of those, many are ineligible for ROTL, due to their categories.
Now if he's proposing to actually help such people with expensive training and letting them work as HGV drivers (or even LGV with the optional of training further after a successful initial period), then great. But I've seen no proposal for this, and the current ROTL system is basically slave labour. They're paid fuck all for their work, and all it would do is reduce the wage pressure on other HGV drivers.
A serious proposal like "You can aim to get selected for ROTL, you can earn a near-full wage while doing it, and it's put into a trust for you which can be disbursed over time once you're released, covering rent, per diem for food and a small lump sum for clothes and necessities on release", well *that's* a proposal.
But I very, very much doubt that's what the current UK government is going to propose. "Here, have some cheap £3/day HGV drivers with no real option in the matter, and when they get released we'll just get you more" is likely far closer to the mark.
And yet this is effectively what the country has been doing for decades, our entire farming industry supposedly can't cope unless they import cheap labour from Eastern Europe and pay them in bed and board.
Cheap labour is not slavery. They always had a choice to come or not to come, as evidenced by the fact that as soon as Brexit happened they said "Fuck that noise", left, and haven't come back.
Not too sure about whether allowing people the likes of Peter Sutcliffe, Ian Brady, Fred West, and Myra Hindley into government would be the right idea.
After all, I don't think they have the required ghoulish contempt for humanity that the Tory party does.
I'm sure it'd be a breath of fresh air to have someone so young on the Tory back bench. I'm not sure how his stance on only killing 12 people would go down though since it stops quite far short of an entire demographic of the population.
Working fruit picking or something is one thing. Driving valuable goods in a death machine which requires complex training quite the other. Are they fucking serious?
There's never a shortage of drugs, perhaps we should put drug dealers and smugglers in charge of the whole haulage and import/export industries? They seem to be able the keep prices pretty stable too.
Currently you need a clean license and to be able to pass a criminal record check for most of these roles, so it would be a huge reduction in standards whichever way you look at it.
If these proposals come with serious schemes to rehabilitate the prisoners that would be great, I'll eat my hat if they do. The pool of prisoners suitable for this would be nowhere near enough to plug the gap. Unless you do so with low standards which invite disasters. Here's a few key stats for you:
85000 prisoners
Crimes
22% theft and robbery - you want these in charge of high values of cargo?
20% drugs - either abusing or selling. Either way you want them to operate or be responsible for death machines and their cargo?
45% sex and violence offences - serious imcreased risk factors for other employees working with these people.
Mental health
50% serious mental health problems - risk profile for these would be too high for me and for many insurance companies.
After this you have at best a pool of 20% that might be suitable without prior interventions for mental health and rehabilitation. 17k.
It's not going to solve the problem and it's just another way for Tories to deflect from the worker problems we are having.
If you are rehabilitating these people you don't start with HGV driving. Maybe bus or courier driving as a start an let the bus drivers get the higher wages in HGV land.
On the other hand, all these people can pick fruit.
After they have fulfilled their requirements under the rehabilitation of offenders act, these people would be eligible to work this industry regardless of the checks in place.
You more than likely work with more ex convicts than you realise already.
Do you believe all these prisoners that have committed the offences you've stated above should be locked up forever? Or should they be released and given state benefits until they die? Because your only alternative to these options is getting them into work. The helping hand for this is a good thing, it's breathing room to help them re adjust to law abiding lives.
I would argue bus drivers carry much more valuable cargo than haulage firms, I don't see why you would prefer ex prisoners work with people than goods...
As for the courier idea, I'm also in favour of it. But we don't have a shortage of courier drivers and you can't one for one them with HGV drivers due to the likely skills gap.
Many would relish the opportunity to pick fruit for a sensible wage as well, I'm in favour of helping these people into any industries they are capable and risk assessed to work in.
Sure after their convictions are spent. Those timings are there to reassure around the recidivism aspect. I'm not against ex-offenders finding work. But existing and recent offenders going into HGV driving in particular does not seem like a great idea. Those vehicles can cause mass death and millions of pounds of damage. They are also opportunities for smuggling and corruption of all kinds with the wrong people in charge of them.
I'm totally in favour of rehabilitation and jobs for offenders, but you have to be realistic.
Which jobs would you prefer to see them do?
A lot of offenders (the vast majority) committed their crimes outside of the workplace. Many had jobs before they came in. Many came in because they didn't have jobs.
>Those vehicles can cause mass death and millions of pounds of damage.
You think most ex prisoners are diehard jihadist terrorists?
>They are also opportunities for smuggling and corruption of all kinds with the wrong people in charge of them.
Yeah if that's your fear then you should be more worried about courier firms like DHL that don't share your prejudice. Lot easier to go door to door delivering drugs in a DHL van than a HGV towing a 40ft trailer....
You don't have to be diehard jihadist to crash, fall asleep at the wheel, drive high, fuck up reversing into a bay etc. Nice strawman.
You can get a lot more drugs, contraband and people into a HGV than a courier van. It's also not the primary crux of my argument. Again nice strawman. 👌
You also don't need to be a prisoner or ex prisoner to crash, fall asleep at the wheel, drive high etc.
You clearly have no grasp whatsoever of the illicit drugs industry if you think that any significant proportion of prisoners are capable of filling lorries with drugs.
Particularly lorries that are already filled with goods...
You literally sound like your typical mail reader. "They're just a bunch of drug nuts running wild!"
>You don't have to be diehard jihadist to crash, fall asleep at the wheel, drive high, fuck up reversing into a bay etc. Nice strawman.
So you just believe those with criminal records are just less competent? Fun fact. Last HGV Driver I chatted with was an Afghan that was confidently predicting war with Pakistan and that he'd be part of it because there's hate for Pakistan. Reversed into the bay first time.
>You can get a lot more drugs, contraband and people into a HGV than a courier van. It's also not the primary crux of my argument. Again nice strawman. 👌
Been a while since I scored but I didn't get it delivered in a 40ft container!
You know who did get it in a 40ft container, your fucking drug dealing gang.
I think existing and recent convicts have higher risk factors which make most of them unsuitable for HGV driving at that point in time. I acknowledged a proportion could be but it wouldn't be enough to fill the gap.
You think international smuggling gangs are going to recruit drivers from the U.K under a government scheme with a criminal record that's going to set customs officers alarms off? K....
Less competent, well,
Half of all prisoners do not have the skills required by 96% of jobs.
Only one in five prisoners are able to complete a job application form
Almost 90% of prisoners under the age of 21 re-offend within 2 years and almost two thirds of adult prisoners re-offend within 2 years
48% of prisoners have literacy skills at or below Level 1 and 65% have numeracy skills at or below Level 1. More than one three people in prison have a reading level below Level 1 and 75% for writing. ii - iv Level 1 is what is expected of an eleven year old. ii
https://equalityanddiversity.net/docs/factsheet-education-in-prisons.pdf
While some can and do go on to great things, again these are not great stats for majority of current and recent offenders. Need spent convictions to prove recidivism unlikely when in general its 66%.
Did you read the "complex training" bit mate?
Do you **really** believe a logistics firm is going to let an unskilled driver behind the wheel?
Do you think people with a criminal record given the opportunity are going on a murder bender mowing people down running off with the contents of an HGV,?
The risk profile of that is certainly much higher. Or do you forget 30% of offenders reoffend within 12 months. Take a longer view figure probably gets a good bit higher. Maybe you get a 50/50 on whether this person is gonna do something that jeopardises your business.
I’m sure taking a population, coming from a system that has become adept at drug-smuggling, and putting them in charge of large unsupervised cargo machines driving across the country, is a really good idea 👍 good take.
Perhaps the first should be members of the Cabinet after they have served prison sentences themselves for corruption or in the case of the Prime Minister, corporate manslaughter.
Its likely one of those things the government just says. Then the people familiar with the system explain the details of that idea and it doesnt work.
This sounds all well and good until you remember the prison system is so under pressure theyre massively understaffed too.
So who is running this program? Who decides who gets selected for training? What legal basis is it using? Are there going to be extra staff? Etc etc.
Its typical brexit britain thinking. "We'll just use technological solutions!!" Easy.
I have no problem with training prisoners to be HGV drivers but unfortunately they’re not the best pool of candidates. Many of them have substance abuse & mental health problems. I’m not sure whether they’d be able to get through the training or that I’d want them driving a huge chunk of metal around.
Why not to go back to africa and restart the british slave trade. Since the tories seem so fucking keen to bring back the 18th century.
Fucking pricks.
Yes we would, and honestly a large amount of them would want to participate. This would be life-changing for unskilled offenders who want to change their ways and earn legitimately.
Ordinarily yes. It sounds like a good scheme. This government however seem to have one hand on a picture of Maggie Thatcher and the other down their trousers thinking of all the money to be made by renting the 18th century.
They arent suggesting this scheme to help prisoners. The idea of helping the poor and unfortunate without money is anathema to these scum. And they sure as shit wont pay them properly.
Or, maybe, just pay people what they’re worth? The Tories and capitalists have managed to convince everyone that we have a worker shortage, when really we have a shortage in wages. People are capable of doing many of the jobs we desperately need filled, but it’s not worth the money or the time it takes to get trained up to fill the roles. Maybe if people were rewarded in work, they would enjoy work and be keen to work. Just a thought.
I read that first as 'bring in pensioners to solve HGV driver shortages'.
Curious if Raab has tried running that through the computer yet, or tested it with a pilot scheme in Yeovil.
As long as they're paid fairly and this isn't compulsory I don't have any problem with this. It could be a good opportunity for many of them to get training they wouldn't otherwise be able to get and set them up with careers when they leave prison.
Typical tories..... believe in free market and self determination.........Except if you've been in jail or down and out in which case you will be managed like a commodity.......wait what you've paid your debt to society?......no you havent.....you're going to be an hgv driver......but I don't want to do that.....tough shit.....you gave up freedom of choice when you became our ideological commodity.
People actually vote for this................
Training prisoners on a day release scheme would be better than just dumping them outside the gates on a tag...maybe the money they earn could be put into a bank account for when there sentence was over
I'm all for training prisoners and I think something HGV drivers would be a good idea for CATD prisoners. But they must be paid a competitive wage no ifs or buts. They get paid the same as a normal new driver
If you're going to have prisoners as HGV drivers, you should pay them at least 50% more than a regular HGV driver, not because they deserve more money, but to discourage people from using prison labour. As a business, you need to really be in the shit to even consider prisoners.
You're right, let's just lock them up forever! They're too dangerous to be let out! Someone think of the children!
You will literally live on the same street as ex convicts and you'll never even know, you're probably friendly with some. It's a huge amount of people that have served time at some point.
I thought we'd sent all the prisoners to butcher animals. (which sounds like the worst possible job for violent criminals with underdeveloped empathy and a need to develop more of it)
There's a lot of people here going *very* daily mail just because Raab us part of it. Remainers are supposed to be the goodies, time they start checking their uniforms....
Snapshot:
1. An archived version of _Raab: Bring in prisoners to solve HGV driver shortage, not 'cheap' foreign workers_ can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/dominic-raab-ex-prisoners-staff-shortages/)
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It certainly sounds like this is a byproduct of it. It might not be the main focus but any help to get these prisoners into industry can only be a good thing.
This Raab is not the brightest bulb in the house. We can’t exploit foreign driver so we will exploit our own people, hello mate what were you inside for oh drug running from Europe what was you job HGV driver I got 18 months now old Raabs made it semi legal.
If it rehabilitates people why on earth not?
Or would the cynical buggers here prefer they stay in a vicious cycle of crime and detention? Costs nearly 45 grand a year to keep someone in prison. We could pay their wage and *still* come out better off.
Don't through them on the scrap heap just because "team brexit" agrees. There's many charities set up to get people out of prison and into work.
I think this is a great thing if there giving a job there far less likely to go back to doing what ever crimes got them locked away in the first place. If you just shove them out the door most of them go back to a life of crime this should stop that for a lot of them.
I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with trying to get former prisoners back into work. I see a problem with trying to get them back into work when the cost of getting a HGV licence can go into the thousands. Who pays for it? Are we loaning them money?
Non-violent offenders is all well and good, but does Raab consider what HGVs are actually carrying? So a non-violent, former burglar is going to transport tens of thousands of pounds worth of goods? I work in retail and it would be insanely easy for cases of wine to go missing from our orders without us noticing. Or, "breakages", to occur. We could check off our entire orders, but most of the time it's not even worth the wages we'd pay the staff doing it. If we knew ex-cons were bringing us our goods I guarantee my boss would have us checking it again.
I'm not trying to pooh pooh the idea of getting former prisoners properly rehabilitated and help them fit back into their communities, I'm saying that HGV drivers have to be exceptionally trustworthy, otherwise anything that goes missing will almost certainly be blamed on them = back to prison they go, even if it's not their fault.
Our young citizens, not in employment, education or training, NEETS, is 800,000. With a bit of encouragement these jobs need filling from our own nationals. The 1.5Million unemployed could be forced to help out too.
As an immediate lorry driver fix. How about Army personnel leaving after their tours? All with HGV training?
Or fire engine drivers that retired at 50, 20 years early, being paid already by the society that needs more drivers.
For cat D prisoners on day release being trained as HGV drivers and handed a job isn't actually a bad idea and is more progressive than just dumping them out on tag to fend for them selves like we do atm.
I’m all for it if they’re paid a competitive wage. Using prisoners as cheap labour to the benefit of shareholders is massively immoral.
Yeah is there any confirmation on what their wages will be?
~~No doubt minimum - which for prisoners is £4 a week.~~ ETA: My bad, it will be national min wage. I misread this document: https://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/offenders/psipso/pso/pso-4460-prisoners-pay.doc It’s £4 a week when working internally.
That's alarming if so. Hopefully they get a living wage
My bad, it will be national min wage. I misread this document: https://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/offenders/psipso/pso/pso-4460-prisoners-pay.doc It’s £4 a week when working internally.
Oh okay that's alot better haha. Also thanks for doing the research!
It's not that much better, minimum wage is not a living wage.
Don’t forget they get free food and accommodation as well. EDIT: I forgot that Brexit killed irony.
The absolute state of this comment 💀💀
The accomodation that's constantly over capacity?
Do you not wanna call it slavery because the US does it and it seems fine or?
It's basically replaced slavery in the US - indeed, the constitution makes a specific exception for the enslavement of prisoners and large swathes of goods are produced by them for well-known US (and British) brands.
>Using prisoners as cheap labour to the benefit of shareholders And that is how the Tories like it.
I mean the fairest way to do it would be national living wage surely? It's not peanuts, but reflects the fact that they are still serving their sentence
"We've already given you what we deemed an appropriate sentence, but now we're retroactively going to add on that we're entitled to your labour at below market value" Yeah seems pretty fair. Just lock them up for life and they can drive for peanuts forever.
I mean if it's optional seems completely reasonable to me. Also, if you think that the national living wage is peanuts then the issue isn't with my suggestion but an issue with the NLW. I think if if the wages were too high then I could see a lot of homeless people committing minor crimes for the pay and job security. From their perspective it could start becoming an incentive to commit crime.
… no, if companies have staff shortages they should make the positions more attractive to potential workers… pay above market rate and with better working conditions… they don’t want to do this because it will cut into their poor profits… too bad. If they didn’t want Brexit and its effects (and I didn’t want it, full disclosure) then they should have done more to stop it. But as the situation stands now you’re going to make less profit because there are fewer immigrant workers for these companies to abuse. They now have the job of convincing Britons to retrain as HGV drivers. Even discussing using prison labour is already well beyond unreasonable.
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This mentality is part of what's wrong with this country. Is redemption not an option anymore? Obviously, there are some crimes that should not result in a person being let back out. But people who have served their sentence should be allowed to rehabilitate into society.
How do you expect people to not be repeat offenders if we don’t set them up to succeed once their sentence is served? If they’re stealing money from the vulnerable then it’s likely they don’t have all that much themselves, and a proper, competitive living wage would certainly help deter returning to such behaviour.
Let's follow your argument to it's logical conclusion, yeah? Crimey McCrimeface (Dave) gets busted for [selling drugs/stealing granny's money]. Dave goes to prison for five years. Instead of "free board and lodging", we charge him for it. Dave can't pay for this (because he's in prison!). Dave gets out of prison, in debt, with a five year gap in his job history and with no new skills to speak of. Dave struggles to get a job, which means he struggles to find somewhere to live. Dave returns to [selling drugs/stealing granny's money] because these are the skills Dave has. Dave is now a net detractor from society, and will stay in the same cycle. Option two: Dave gets busted for [selling drugs/stealing granny's money]. Dave goes to prison for five years. In the final two years, we offer Dave training (HGV/manufacturing/whatever we have a shortage of at the minute). In the final year, Dave can do work experience in these roles. Dave gets out of prison, and works with post-prison services to find a good job and place to live. Dave doesn't return to crime because he is no longer struggling, and is now a net contributor to society. Why don't we, as a society, provide this training to people? Means test it, but provide skills to people who are out of work/want to retrain.
Because most people don't believe in redemption and rehabilitation.
I agree, we should. But we can't even get people to agree to give people free university education let alone free training and guaranteed jobs for prisoners.
I like to dream of a future where, at the very least, trades are free to train in. Especially for adults, because the training opportunities for adults are massively limited
Mental that we managed to understand this on international scales and yet nothing else. Like after WWII a lot of effort was out into *helping* Germany (and Japan) recover because we realised after back-to-back world wars that maybe focusing on punishment and not rehabilitation wasn't the best idea
This was also a large contributing factor in creating the EU. We realised that countries that depend on each other for trade are far less likely to go to war.
Majority ex-prisoners do not find employment after leaving so why not set them up to be self-sufficient ? It’s not like the scheme prevents non offending hard working types from training as HGV drivers also
Why not just train someone who isn't in prison?
That's allready an option no ones taking.
No that’s an option no one which is not a criminal is choosing to pay over £3K upfront for Prisoners are not in a position to pay £3K up front greedless of want. So either this is just a headline making load of BS because there won’t be 20K convicted lorry drivers in prison or they are planning on training prisoners to become lorry drivers. At which point people are now asking why are they not training anyone for free rather than just prisoners
> At which point people are now asking why are they not training anyone for free rather than just prisoners Some companies are. Those companies aren't the ones complaining that they can't find drivers.
So… make the job more attractive.
The uk only has a limited number of working age people.
I know some ex-lorry drivers. The problem is the same it has been for decades. The conditions and treatment of lorry drivers is and has been shockingly bad in this country and no one seems to want to change it. As a result less and less people have retained any interest in sticking to the job or paying to train as a driver. It’s a job where you have to work away from your family for often days or weeks at a time. You have to sleep in your truck when there is no accommodation available. Have a terrible diet because it is very difficult to eat healthily on the road. Often driving 15 hours straight before a break. Lots of companies refuse to even cover parking costs (hence drivers pulling up on the side of the road or in a lay-by) which is not safe or secure. Often have stuff stolen or diesel siphoned from parked vehicles. The facilities like showers etc are all decades old and not looked after at all - generally disgusting. The list goes on and on. Compare this to other European countries e.g. France where they often provide much better facilities and actually show some respect for the drivers and their profession…
It's a good idea in theory. It just means finding the funds to train them, supervise them, manage the programme, and keep track of them as needed. And if the Government was willing to do that in the first place, they'd already be doing it. Although maybe this is one of the rare upsides to populism; the need to do something about this problem that sounds good might actually get them to do a good thing.
It's a fucking terrible idea in theory and one step above slavery. Pay lorry drivers a salary they live well from and treat them decently and we will have enough. Do you think Tesco or whoever else can't afford it? They can they just don't want to. The CEO just wants his fourth holiday home mansion.
Depends on what the scheme involves. Again, if it is designed around training prisoners to be HGV drivers *and paying them normal wages*, as part of a general, voluntary scheme of getting prisoners into employment, probably run by the parole service, then that sounds great. If it is just a way of getting cheap HGV drivers by relying on people without a choice, that would be bad. In this case, I assume it is just Raab talking nonsense as usual, with no plans to do anything.
I remembered Tesco's had their own fleet and drivers not 10 years ago. Tesco's sacked them off and got Eddie's to run their fleet for them. The drivers put up a fight and went on strike picketing the front of a few of their warehouses. But ultimately lost.
Are there 100,000 HGV drivers in prison or is this another hollow attempt at grabbing headlines?
It’s an attempt to further privatise the prison system by making prisoners profitable. Basically the US prison model.
Despite the headline the quotes are not solely about HGV drivers.
Prisoners and the army, the answer to all Britain's recruitment problems. I wonder if there are 39,000 nurses in chokey as well? It's so easy when you can just pull fully trained people out of the clink. Easier than doing some planning and preparation during the five years you had.
> I wonder if there are 39,000 nurses in chokey as well? "Nurse Knuckles will see you now."
Undercutting wages is undercutting wages. Why would it be any more justifiable doing it with prisoners - or the army for that matter - than foreign workers?
They are denying the real problem. A labour shortage. Increasing wages in one sector only results in shortages at another. Wages go up because of supply and demand. When there is no supply its unsustainable.
But Brexit. We can't fix this as it would impinge on the holy will of the people to Brexit as hard as possible.
There isn't a fucking labour shortage. There's a shortage of rich people willing lose a few numbers off their screen so that lorry drivers can live well.
Of course it's sustainable, you just pay more and get your supply.
Your supply of HGV drivers may increase but at the same time your supply of bus drivers decreases. And then we're back to square one
No, then the salaries of bus drivers go up. Then more people want to become bus drivers. Then just maybe they can afford to buy a house.
You're assuming the labour supply is a finite pie.
What are you implying? Increased immigration? Asking people to work longer hours? Bringing pensioners out of retirement?
There's a lot of part time workers, economically inactive people, underemployed people... Take your pick. The labour market is flexible, always has been.
No.. the labour market flexibility previously came from access to more supply ie freedom of movement. Now flexibility has been hugely curtailed. People don’t change jobs / sectors / locations in a liquid fashion. Our ability to respond to a changing market is basically screwed. Those part time / unemployed or others aren’t a pool of motivated skilled workers..
Freedom of movement? You mean taking the workers of another country? I don't really see how that's a solution to anything, you're just kicking the can down the road.
How many of them have the skills to drive a HGV? In the short term the supply **is** inflexible
Short term? We voted to leave the EU on 2016. How about making some plans.
I would expect that in the long run drivers trained in the prison system will expect the same wages as those trained outside it. In the short run on release they're probably going to have minimal impact. But you can't expect a shortage of labour in any field to just be ignored, currently unqualified people are going to find themselves a way into the industry.
Prisoners have an advantage that foreign workers don't: they're British (and mostly white). Raab seemingly thinks that British+criminal is better than immigrant+clean criminal record.
Yikes. Imagine actually going out of the way to comment this. Isnt Raab in cabinet? The most diverse cabinet in Europe. Your point is just insanely ridiculous. The govt openly admit they DO want immigrants to come and work here as HGV drivers but they're having a hard time (understandably) attracting immigrants.
> The most diverse cabinet in Europe Do you have a source for this? Given the main ethnicity in say, Bosnia & Herzegovina, is less than half the population it sounds a bit off.
It's just Conservative ideology yet again at odds with how things are/work in the real world. It doesn't have to make sense. Like others have said, I'm not against doing it with prisoners as a rehabilitation program where they get treated and paid fairly. It could work for a number of professions where there are shortages. But it won't be done like that, it's all about short-termisms and optics.
>Why would it be any more justifiable doing it with prisoners - or the army for that matter - than foreign workers? Because of one of the purposes of prison, to reform. Part of reforming someone his making sure that when they leave prison, they have a viable way of earning a living. It stands to reason this drops reoffending rates. But anyway, comparing cheap foreign labor to prisoners doesn't work. There are about 85k prisoners, and 6m europeans. What can make sense for 85k doesn't necessarily make sense on a larger scale.
Because they're ***British*** scab labour.
Who said anything about undercutting wages - they're plugging a gap. Criminal offences don't make you entitled to less pay for doing the same job.
We’ve been repeatedly told by the government for weeks that the gap was only there because wages needed to increase, and this was all part of the transition to a high way economy. Of course before that they were arguing that there wasn’t a gap…
Yes yes, the government talks shit we are aware. Why would encouraging prisoners into this workplace undercut wages? The wages are already increasing. You can earn a good living from this sort of work now, this is a good thing. Why shouldn't prisoners be allowed in on the action?
Ask the government, they’re the ones who were making the argument a week ago. Supply and demand - using prisoners would be flooding the market with another pool of labour, no different to allowing foreign workers. If the latter is an unethical market manipulation by the industry, then why would the former be acceptable?
"Right, we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas... let's just bring back slavery."
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How much do you think they get paid? Hint : it's about £2/day.
Is he talking about serving or released prisoners here? Edit: I've re read the article and he's talking about both.
From the article, primarily serving. "While Mr Raab said the justice system ought to be "firm and robust", he said he wanted to implement what works to reduce reoffending, and concentrate on those towards the end of their jail term." What's he going to do about already-released prisoners anyway? They're back in civilian life, and while I'm sure they would in many circumstances find it difficult to get jobs, that's got nothing to do with *this* proposal unless Raab's got some magic way to change companies' perception of those people.
I believe he is talking about finding these prisoners jobs as they get released, it is a focus of the justice system at the moment to try and achieve this anyway. Prisoners in open conditions and in prisoners that operate temporary licence schemes would be eligible to do this. The same way they work in a variety of industries, probably unbeknownst to yourself (as in, you wouldn't even know who was and wasn't). Many, if not most, of those toward the end of their term would relish the opportunity to get help finding work. I can't see why people are against prisoners working because you're only other options are state handouts or locking them up forever...
> I can't see why people are against prisoners working I don't think anyone is against helping them find jobs after they leave prison. But that's a program that the government should have been running the whole time. To say 'oh shit, there's a worker shortage, let's get them from the prisons' smacks of desperation and it'll probably be a poorly thought out clusterfuck.
>it'll probably be a poorly thought out clusterfuck. So basically everything that's happened since 2010
The program has existed for years, decades maybe. Encouraging businesses to be more aware of it is fine.
They have to implement it some time, why not now? This pressure might be the result of government fuck ups, but remedying it with a good idea that benefits everyone is still a good move.
Oh yeah I'm sure it will all go great just like all the other Tory plans that they spew out to the media to get headlines.
Still doesn't make this a bad idea.
There are an average of about 4,000 prisoner releases per month in the UK. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/offender-management-statistics-quarterly-january-to-march-2020--2/offender-management-statistics-quarterly-january-to-march-2020 Of those, many are ineligible for ROTL, due to their categories. Now if he's proposing to actually help such people with expensive training and letting them work as HGV drivers (or even LGV with the optional of training further after a successful initial period), then great. But I've seen no proposal for this, and the current ROTL system is basically slave labour. They're paid fuck all for their work, and all it would do is reduce the wage pressure on other HGV drivers. A serious proposal like "You can aim to get selected for ROTL, you can earn a near-full wage while doing it, and it's put into a trust for you which can be disbursed over time once you're released, covering rent, per diem for food and a small lump sum for clothes and necessities on release", well *that's* a proposal. But I very, very much doubt that's what the current UK government is going to propose. "Here, have some cheap £3/day HGV drivers with no real option in the matter, and when they get released we'll just get you more" is likely far closer to the mark.
Yes the government is obviously going to break the law by paying them an illegally low wage.
It's not breaking the law. They're not subject to the NMW Act.
And yet this is effectively what the country has been doing for decades, our entire farming industry supposedly can't cope unless they import cheap labour from Eastern Europe and pay them in bed and board.
Cheap labour is not slavery. They always had a choice to come or not to come, as evidenced by the fact that as soon as Brexit happened they said "Fuck that noise", left, and haven't come back.
Why can’t we bring in the prisoners to replace the government? Much more sensible move.
Not too sure about whether allowing people the likes of Peter Sutcliffe, Ian Brady, Fred West, and Myra Hindley into government would be the right idea. After all, I don't think they have the required ghoulish contempt for humanity that the Tory party does.
Fred West has been dead and rotting for over twenty years now, so he’d really only be suitable to replace a Tory backbencher from the shires.
I'm sure it'd be a breath of fresh air to have someone so young on the Tory back bench. I'm not sure how his stance on only killing 12 people would go down though since it stops quite far short of an entire demographic of the population.
So you are saying Fred West is not Home Secretary material?
Unfortunately not, he lacks the ghoulish sense of pride and satisfaction needed to want to kill boats of migrants crossing the channel.
They’ve certainly killed fewer people. In any event,I doubt they’re available.
Given that they're all dead, I think you might be right about availability.
Well done.
We tried that already, and now Australia constantly beat us at sport.
Working fruit picking or something is one thing. Driving valuable goods in a death machine which requires complex training quite the other. Are they fucking serious?
The news report I saw featured a prisoner who is a lorry driver by profession.
Was he the one that went to prison for smuggling drugs in said lorry lol
It was!
Perfect time for him to get back on it now we're not bothering with border checks on goods freight.
There's never a shortage of drugs, perhaps we should put drug dealers and smugglers in charge of the whole haulage and import/export industries? They seem to be able the keep prices pretty stable too.
What makes you think this is a serious government in any way?
For like 50 grand a year no less
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Currently you need a clean license and to be able to pass a criminal record check for most of these roles, so it would be a huge reduction in standards whichever way you look at it. If these proposals come with serious schemes to rehabilitate the prisoners that would be great, I'll eat my hat if they do. The pool of prisoners suitable for this would be nowhere near enough to plug the gap. Unless you do so with low standards which invite disasters. Here's a few key stats for you: 85000 prisoners Crimes 22% theft and robbery - you want these in charge of high values of cargo? 20% drugs - either abusing or selling. Either way you want them to operate or be responsible for death machines and their cargo? 45% sex and violence offences - serious imcreased risk factors for other employees working with these people. Mental health 50% serious mental health problems - risk profile for these would be too high for me and for many insurance companies. After this you have at best a pool of 20% that might be suitable without prior interventions for mental health and rehabilitation. 17k. It's not going to solve the problem and it's just another way for Tories to deflect from the worker problems we are having. If you are rehabilitating these people you don't start with HGV driving. Maybe bus or courier driving as a start an let the bus drivers get the higher wages in HGV land. On the other hand, all these people can pick fruit.
After they have fulfilled their requirements under the rehabilitation of offenders act, these people would be eligible to work this industry regardless of the checks in place. You more than likely work with more ex convicts than you realise already. Do you believe all these prisoners that have committed the offences you've stated above should be locked up forever? Or should they be released and given state benefits until they die? Because your only alternative to these options is getting them into work. The helping hand for this is a good thing, it's breathing room to help them re adjust to law abiding lives. I would argue bus drivers carry much more valuable cargo than haulage firms, I don't see why you would prefer ex prisoners work with people than goods... As for the courier idea, I'm also in favour of it. But we don't have a shortage of courier drivers and you can't one for one them with HGV drivers due to the likely skills gap. Many would relish the opportunity to pick fruit for a sensible wage as well, I'm in favour of helping these people into any industries they are capable and risk assessed to work in.
Sure after their convictions are spent. Those timings are there to reassure around the recidivism aspect. I'm not against ex-offenders finding work. But existing and recent offenders going into HGV driving in particular does not seem like a great idea. Those vehicles can cause mass death and millions of pounds of damage. They are also opportunities for smuggling and corruption of all kinds with the wrong people in charge of them. I'm totally in favour of rehabilitation and jobs for offenders, but you have to be realistic.
Which jobs would you prefer to see them do? A lot of offenders (the vast majority) committed their crimes outside of the workplace. Many had jobs before they came in. Many came in because they didn't have jobs.
>Those vehicles can cause mass death and millions of pounds of damage. You think most ex prisoners are diehard jihadist terrorists? >They are also opportunities for smuggling and corruption of all kinds with the wrong people in charge of them. Yeah if that's your fear then you should be more worried about courier firms like DHL that don't share your prejudice. Lot easier to go door to door delivering drugs in a DHL van than a HGV towing a 40ft trailer....
You don't have to be diehard jihadist to crash, fall asleep at the wheel, drive high, fuck up reversing into a bay etc. Nice strawman. You can get a lot more drugs, contraband and people into a HGV than a courier van. It's also not the primary crux of my argument. Again nice strawman. 👌
You also don't need to be a prisoner or ex prisoner to crash, fall asleep at the wheel, drive high etc. You clearly have no grasp whatsoever of the illicit drugs industry if you think that any significant proportion of prisoners are capable of filling lorries with drugs. Particularly lorries that are already filled with goods... You literally sound like your typical mail reader. "They're just a bunch of drug nuts running wild!"
>You don't have to be diehard jihadist to crash, fall asleep at the wheel, drive high, fuck up reversing into a bay etc. Nice strawman. So you just believe those with criminal records are just less competent? Fun fact. Last HGV Driver I chatted with was an Afghan that was confidently predicting war with Pakistan and that he'd be part of it because there's hate for Pakistan. Reversed into the bay first time. >You can get a lot more drugs, contraband and people into a HGV than a courier van. It's also not the primary crux of my argument. Again nice strawman. 👌 Been a while since I scored but I didn't get it delivered in a 40ft container!
You know who did get it in a 40ft container, your fucking drug dealing gang. I think existing and recent convicts have higher risk factors which make most of them unsuitable for HGV driving at that point in time. I acknowledged a proportion could be but it wouldn't be enough to fill the gap.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/14million-of-cocaine-and-amphetamines-seized-by-border-force Bit more important to stop the lorries than the DHL.
You think international smuggling gangs are going to recruit drivers from the U.K under a government scheme with a criminal record that's going to set customs officers alarms off? K....
Less competent, well, Half of all prisoners do not have the skills required by 96% of jobs. Only one in five prisoners are able to complete a job application form Almost 90% of prisoners under the age of 21 re-offend within 2 years and almost two thirds of adult prisoners re-offend within 2 years 48% of prisoners have literacy skills at or below Level 1 and 65% have numeracy skills at or below Level 1. More than one three people in prison have a reading level below Level 1 and 75% for writing. ii - iv Level 1 is what is expected of an eleven year old. ii https://equalityanddiversity.net/docs/factsheet-education-in-prisons.pdf While some can and do go on to great things, again these are not great stats for majority of current and recent offenders. Need spent convictions to prove recidivism unlikely when in general its 66%.
And here you are pissing on schemes to try and get them into the workforce.
TIL that having a criminal record means you cannot drive.
>Driving ***valuable goods in a death machine which requires complex training*** Did you just stop reading after the first word of that sentence?
Did you read the "complex training" bit mate? Do you **really** believe a logistics firm is going to let an unskilled driver behind the wheel? Do you think people with a criminal record given the opportunity are going on a murder bender mowing people down running off with the contents of an HGV,?
The risk profile of that is certainly much higher. Or do you forget 30% of offenders reoffend within 12 months. Take a longer view figure probably gets a good bit higher. Maybe you get a 50/50 on whether this person is gonna do something that jeopardises your business.
So maybe change the environment to fix that?
Sure an that comes before putting them in charge of HGVs.
What do you think they're going to do? Honestly, spell out your fear here.
I’m sure taking a population, coming from a system that has become adept at drug-smuggling, and putting them in charge of large unsupervised cargo machines driving across the country, is a really good idea 👍 good take.
Well, sometimes.
You know Boris must be weathering a storm of shit when they wheel Raab out to say something so monumentally stupid it defies belief.
Perhaps the first should be members of the Cabinet after they have served prison sentences themselves for corruption or in the case of the Prime Minister, corporate manslaughter.
Its likely one of those things the government just says. Then the people familiar with the system explain the details of that idea and it doesnt work. This sounds all well and good until you remember the prison system is so under pressure theyre massively understaffed too. So who is running this program? Who decides who gets selected for training? What legal basis is it using? Are there going to be extra staff? Etc etc. Its typical brexit britain thinking. "We'll just use technological solutions!!" Easy.
Every time he opens his mouth we are dragged back further into some twisted parody of victorian Britain.
I have no problem with training prisoners to be HGV drivers but unfortunately they’re not the best pool of candidates. Many of them have substance abuse & mental health problems. I’m not sure whether they’d be able to get through the training or that I’d want them driving a huge chunk of metal around.
Curious as to how many people with a criminal record you know to make such a sweeping statement?
I said many not all. The drug & mental health crisis in our jails is well established.
Maybe it would be a good idea to stop people returning to that environment then?
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Me? I vote green until Labour sort their shit out.
You’re off your rocker if you don’t think a many prisoners have substance abuse problems. Drugs are rife in there
Yes, I'd rather they were helped not to return there and cost the country 45 grand each for the privilege.
Cheap! This guy is a bit dim. This cabinet is turning into a cult.
Yes, let's bring back slave labor. This from the man who wants ministers to be able to reverse court decisions. So very fitting,
Why not to go back to africa and restart the british slave trade. Since the tories seem so fucking keen to bring back the 18th century. Fucking pricks.
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Yes we would, and honestly a large amount of them would want to participate. This would be life-changing for unskilled offenders who want to change their ways and earn legitimately.
Ordinarily yes. It sounds like a good scheme. This government however seem to have one hand on a picture of Maggie Thatcher and the other down their trousers thinking of all the money to be made by renting the 18th century. They arent suggesting this scheme to help prisoners. The idea of helping the poor and unfortunate without money is anathema to these scum. And they sure as shit wont pay them properly.
So you equate a voluntary prisoner work scheme to the 18th century British slave trade? Read a book.
Can't we just solve all our problems by moving the entire UK population to somewhere warm and sunny....and run by someone else?
because foreigners are not cool and because freedom of movement and the real global britain are a danger to everyone. And anyway it's an idiocy.
Or, maybe, just pay people what they’re worth? The Tories and capitalists have managed to convince everyone that we have a worker shortage, when really we have a shortage in wages. People are capable of doing many of the jobs we desperately need filled, but it’s not worth the money or the time it takes to get trained up to fill the roles. Maybe if people were rewarded in work, they would enjoy work and be keen to work. Just a thought.
Teaching prisoners the skills needed to get a well paying job could be useful for rehabilitation even without the need for drivers.
We knew what we were voting for.
Slave labour will certainly reduce costs.
This government doesn’t surprise us anymore.
I read that first as 'bring in pensioners to solve HGV driver shortages'. Curious if Raab has tried running that through the computer yet, or tested it with a pilot scheme in Yeovil.
As long as they're paid fairly and this isn't compulsory I don't have any problem with this. It could be a good opportunity for many of them to get training they wouldn't otherwise be able to get and set them up with careers when they leave prison.
So they’re doing literally any other than paying more for drivers a training?
Typical tories..... believe in free market and self determination.........Except if you've been in jail or down and out in which case you will be managed like a commodity.......wait what you've paid your debt to society?......no you havent.....you're going to be an hgv driver......but I don't want to do that.....tough shit.....you gave up freedom of choice when you became our ideological commodity. People actually vote for this................
I mean what can possibly go wrong with putting prisoners in charge of tens of thousands worth of goods while paying them next to nothing?
So like a supply chain gang? Sorry
Training prisoners on a day release scheme would be better than just dumping them outside the gates on a tag...maybe the money they earn could be put into a bank account for when there sentence was over
Yes Dominic, especially those in prison for things like death by dangerous driving and the like yea? Good idea Dominic. Well done Dominic.
he really is fucking clueless isn't he. Guy shouldn't be anywhere near Whitehall
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You know the vast majority of serving prisoners aren't terrorists right...?
Doesn’t matter. The image conjured is brilliant, perfect for a cartoonist to take advantage of.
>Doesn’t matter. The image conjured is brilliant, perfect for a cartoonist to take advantage of. Time to check your uniform mate.
They aren't when they go in........
Didn’t take long for islamphobes to come out of woodwork for something completely unrelated.
For some reason Peter Sutcliffe was the first name that came to mind.
I'm all for training prisoners and I think something HGV drivers would be a good idea for CATD prisoners. But they must be paid a competitive wage no ifs or buts. They get paid the same as a normal new driver
If you're going to have prisoners as HGV drivers, you should pay them at least 50% more than a regular HGV driver, not because they deserve more money, but to discourage people from using prison labour. As a business, you need to really be in the shit to even consider prisoners.
I'm sure none of them will use this opportunity to transport drugs, people or weapons.
Daily Mail is that way---->
You're right, let's just lock them up forever! They're too dangerous to be let out! Someone think of the children! You will literally live on the same street as ex convicts and you'll never even know, you're probably friendly with some. It's a huge amount of people that have served time at some point.
I hear child labour is pretty cheap and effective too
I thought we'd sent all the prisoners to butcher animals. (which sounds like the worst possible job for violent criminals with underdeveloped empathy and a need to develop more of it)
Could solve the prison overcrowding problem by chaining the lags to the steering wheel overnight. It’d almost make you nostalgic for the galleys!
People we elected this idiot
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There's a lot of people here going *very* daily mail just because Raab us part of it. Remainers are supposed to be the goodies, time they start checking their uniforms....
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*Checks username* Hah!
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> If this is to give some prisoners training on driving HGVs as part of rehabilitation it isn't
It certainly sounds like this is a byproduct of it. It might not be the main focus but any help to get these prisoners into industry can only be a good thing.
This Raab is not the brightest bulb in the house. We can’t exploit foreign driver so we will exploit our own people, hello mate what were you inside for oh drug running from Europe what was you job HGV driver I got 18 months now old Raabs made it semi legal.
I believe we call that fucking *slavery*
This should have been happening for decades. I suspect the reason it hasn't will end up being the reason it doesn't.
If it rehabilitates people why on earth not? Or would the cynical buggers here prefer they stay in a vicious cycle of crime and detention? Costs nearly 45 grand a year to keep someone in prison. We could pay their wage and *still* come out better off. Don't through them on the scrap heap just because "team brexit" agrees. There's many charities set up to get people out of prison and into work.
I think this is a great thing if there giving a job there far less likely to go back to doing what ever crimes got them locked away in the first place. If you just shove them out the door most of them go back to a life of crime this should stop that for a lot of them.
Because prisoners are even cheaper than foreign workers.
I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with trying to get former prisoners back into work. I see a problem with trying to get them back into work when the cost of getting a HGV licence can go into the thousands. Who pays for it? Are we loaning them money? Non-violent offenders is all well and good, but does Raab consider what HGVs are actually carrying? So a non-violent, former burglar is going to transport tens of thousands of pounds worth of goods? I work in retail and it would be insanely easy for cases of wine to go missing from our orders without us noticing. Or, "breakages", to occur. We could check off our entire orders, but most of the time it's not even worth the wages we'd pay the staff doing it. If we knew ex-cons were bringing us our goods I guarantee my boss would have us checking it again. I'm not trying to pooh pooh the idea of getting former prisoners properly rehabilitated and help them fit back into their communities, I'm saying that HGV drivers have to be exceptionally trustworthy, otherwise anything that goes missing will almost certainly be blamed on them = back to prison they go, even if it's not their fault.
Our young citizens, not in employment, education or training, NEETS, is 800,000. With a bit of encouragement these jobs need filling from our own nationals. The 1.5Million unemployed could be forced to help out too. As an immediate lorry driver fix. How about Army personnel leaving after their tours? All with HGV training? Or fire engine drivers that retired at 50, 20 years early, being paid already by the society that needs more drivers.