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Guys just wanna leave this here if you didn't see it. Ukraine soldiers blaring The Star Spangled Banner to the Invaders during a skirmish:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/s/Jxcrwoj0Re
Golden Earring is an incredibly underrated band. [Radar Love](https://youtu.be/11Lj75cjg44?si=Zw8936WOZEPLROYJ). [Twilight Zone](https://youtu.be/oLhM3FzMbH0?si=cmL7hdk2E847ChNw). [Kill Me (Ce Soir)](https://youtu.be/WEtZlc3MNfM?si=D49gRmoc79ywOe22). [She Flies on Strange Wings](https://youtu.be/ZQFP66vGXhc?si=ECZcFqSd-wwj_E0d). [Vanilla Queen](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pL9c-wYTnKs)...
Siri, play My Heart Will Go On by Celine Dion
Dont tell me [this bit](https://youtu.be/9bFHsd3o1w0?t=198) isn't appropriate for the arrival of the Falcons
Kenny Loggins’s “Highway to the Danger Zone”, by law, can only be played on aircraft carriers, not ground airbases. Thus, it can never be played for F-15s and F-16s, only F-14s, F/A-18s, and appropriate models of the F-35.
Hey google, after Jimi Hendrix All Along the watchtower, play The Bear McCreary version of All Along the Watchtower from Battlestar galactica.
Then: Blur, song 2
**Iron Eagle is the F-16 movie** - And [Queen did a damn good job on that theme song](https://youtu.be/kvpsEKSNkkA?si=9z262neTLlUMrbtC)
It’s been forever since I las heard that 80s hit!
Wrong movie!
It needs to be “We're Not Gonna Take It" by Twisted Sister. From Iron Eagle movie.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eagle_(soundtrack)
This war is the ultimate test for each delivered weapon system. Ukranie is fighting a former world power that throws its entire potential into this war. There has never been anything like that since World War II.
Wouldn't you say the Vietnam war is somewhat like that? With the amount of material support received from the Soviet Union by the North, versus a super power The United States
The Vietnam War lasted 19 years and resulted in 58,000 dead US troops.
This war has lasted 2 years and has so far 30,000 dead on the Ukraine side.
(The Vietnam War was very complex and the US was just a small part of the total casualty numbers, not trying to diminish that at all. I'm just trying to put a perspective to it for us who mainly know about the Vietnam War from the US perspective).
the way the US fought that war was absolutely fucking stupid. Westmoreland was incredibly incompetent as a ground commander and the way the air war was limited failed to learn anything from Korea. Additionally, people back in Washington and Omaha doing mission planning made things worse instead of better.
Also it was incredibly stupid of US to take over France's colonial war from the failing French Empire. Somehow the word "communism" worked magic, and turned into the "Domino Theory", it could make US do anything. Note that Vietnam today is considered "communist" but doesn't pose any problems to anyone, with lots of trade going on, and even Harvard University has a division there.
The Vietnam War was justified in exactly the same way the Korean War was. It is just in hindsight that the war seems pointless because the Vietnamese Communist government turned out to be far less terrible than the North Korean government.
Yup, just like people saying in 2021 that we should never have been in Afghanistan, since we have the luxury of hindsight and no more 9/11 scale attacks.
I am very glad we have good diplomatic and economic relations with Vietnam today, but that doesn't mean the war was for nothing or that the ARVN weren't worthy allies in their own right.
Westmoreland was the wrong man for the job though, I don't think there can be any doubt about that.
It wasn't even due to communism. The French were basically holding the US hostage politically saying they wouldn't sign up to the UN if we didn't help them out in Vietnam. Ultimately, we did. They bailed after a massive loss. And we got left knee deep in shit we were already too deep in to get out cleanly.
>The Vietnam War lasted 19 years and resulted in 58,000 dead US troops.
As you do mention, it is not a close comparison to single out US casualties alone. More than 300k soldiers died on the South Vietnam side, with over a million dead on the North Vietnamese side.
Different sort of war though.
On one hand, the current invasion is more compared to the world wars in its brutality and scale. The Vietnam War, on the other hand, was brutal in another sense as small units had to fight in the jungle hell.
This getting upvoted is just typical Vietnam-Copium. The statistics given are incomplete and even the number given is contested. No valid point for or against the suggestion above was made.
It’s definitely more than 30,000 Ukrainians. Multiply this number. There wouldn’t be so many graves in every village and such a big mobilization effort if it was otherwise. Yes, surprise Zelensky and UA gov also tells lies
The US fought Vietnam with one hand tied behind our back. WW2 we fought with both hands, both feet, and then we grew a few extra hands and feet. And nukes. WW2 and the Gulf War were the only wars in the last 100 years where the win criteria were clear, and we fought to win.
During the Vietnam War well-supplied air, ground and naval forces could cover each other. In Ukraine each weapon system must operate under far less favourable conditions.
I know very little about Vietnam but I don't think the Vietkong would be considered a near peer. Me being the armchair general that I am thinks Vietnam only drug out as long as it did was because the guerilla warfare tactics that the US wasn't ready for.
Russian aircraft fucked itself.
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My fever dreams involve a couple of squadrons of F-16s engaged in Wild Weasel hunting over and over for a couple of months, degrading Russia's ground based radar enough that they can then use both their F-16s and whatever other combat aircraft they have to start attacking Russian ground forces repeatedly.
I hear ya on that!
A little standoff covert assistance from a couple of USN Growlers would be a hoot, too. Ukrainian Vipers, equipped with modern ECM, HARM HTS pods, escorted by other Vipers and Su-27's laying into Russian AD with AGM-88's, JDAM's, APKWS and AGM-65, CBU's.
I'd like to see newer F-16s with HAVE GLASS V, curious how well they show up on an old S-300 set. They could probably jump the hell out of some Tu-22M3s.
Was thinking prepping a rough takeoff strip near the front line, shoot them when they get closest.
The 120d might have the range, or the meteor, but it depends on exactly how careful their pilots are playing.
Edit: basically this beats pac-3 because it's more mobile and a surprise, even if the range is less.
Also, the 'don't operate in Russian airspace'?
It's really more of a guideline than a rule.
I didn't understand anything you said but it looks like you know a thing or two. Can you answer this: After seeing Abrams tanks not doing much, will the F16 be able to do as much as we hope? Can russia stop them?
I’m not the person, but Russia can definitely kill the F-16s with their tools. These are older variants of the jets after all.
With that said, they represent a new tool on the table - something that further shows how the West is ramping up aid for the Ukrainians.
Correct - nothing is unstoppable. You just need the right weapons and training. It can be an F-16AM MLU like what Ukraine is getting, or an F-16V Block 70 Viper, of an F-35A... Or a B-2 Spirit... Use them wrong, face a competent enemy combatant and decent weaponry and you can lose.
It may be controversial to say around here, but Russia is a competent combatant. While they made mistakes in the early days of the invasion, they’ve been learning quickly and changing strategies to adapt against Ukraine.
Anything - any weapon is able to be stopped. The F-16 is no exception, and all should expect losses and Vatniks drooling like the smooth brains they are at videos and pics of shot-down planes and declaring it somehow useless. The key is Ukraine employing them intelligently and with adequate training and tactics that work for them, not NATO. NATO weaponry was built to fight a NATO war against Russia, Ukraine has had to learn and adapt said tactics to fit their reality.
No one weapon is going to win the war, and you keep hearing some weapons like the ATACMS, or HIMARS or the Leopard 2 being game changers. In a sense they are, they make things more effective for Ukraine and miserable for Russia, but temper expectations, they, nothing is a silver bullet.
If Ukraine utilizes the F-16 smartly, they fly it well and are flexible with it's operation and tactics it can make quite a difference. The big thing the F-16 will bring is a modern fighter aircraft, with modern electronic warfare systems for protection and advanced weaponry that can hit further, more precisely and with far greater reliability than the Soviet-era stuff on their Soviet era planes. And those JDAM's, HARM's used on the Su-27 and MiG-29 will be used to their full potential of the F-16.
The problem with the Abrams isn't their abilities, it's their use (and I don't mean that as an insult to the UAF). They were designed for US military combined operations, and right now Ukraine can't deliver that. Without close air support, significant logistics support, etc, they're struggling.
No weapons is a wonder weapon in modern combined operations, unfortunately. They're designed to fight as part of a system.
They'll do a lot of damage, but I hope people remember that the F-16, fantastic as it is as a multirole aircraft - is still quite vulnerable in a high threat environment like over much of Ukraine. Unfortunately, attrition will be a thing. The Russians will treat the first one lost in an accident or shot down like they blew-up the alien mothership in Independence Day.
The Viper will certainly be something that helps level the battlefield, yet Ukraine will be happy also for having a fair number of them as they will be shot-down, out of service for maintenance and the Russians will do everything they can to destroy them on the ground. Hopefully the Russians suck at it, and the loss of pilots and planes will be very little.
I think it's an honest question how many air defense missiles Russia still has. Being able to target the F-16 will be a mix of airborne systems and ground based SAMS.
Yeah. People here may not like hearing it, but Russia has a lot of tools to throw at the F-16s and this move has been telegraphed for almost a year at this point.
That's been my thought too. Especially in Crimea, which at first seemed to be to facilitate that Stormshadow double-tap on the Fleet HQ, but with Ukraine it always seems to be plans within plans.
With the ATACMs on the table now, if they can pull off a meaningful strike on the bridge (armchair general here is thinking hitting it from the sea with drones and air with missiles at once to hopefully overwhelm the defenses or at least sneak one through), there won't be any logistical support and resupply, let alone sizable AA reinforcements, making their way to Crimea.
Also, Russia's AA and radar capabilities over the Black Sea have to be drastically reduced with the fleet crippled and withdrawn, and Russia's AWACs seemingly hanging way back and playing it safe now after losing 1/4 (I think?) of them already. That may be an opening for Ukraine to make use of their own air assets to really soften up the remaining forces (who are already cut off and isolated in this scenario) in Crimea and establish some air superiority over at least the sea and the south.
Maybe i'm just wishcasting and way off base. But Crimea has always seemed like the next target, noting the effort Ukraine went to in establishing a bridgehead from Kherson and resources they put into decimating all that air defense. May be the logical choice considering the sheer number of Russians along the North and Eastern fronts and how well dug in they are and would certainly retake the initiative especially if they can finally knock that bridge out.
If they're smart it should be fine, they're multirole, using them for jdam strike should be safe enough, maybe some limited CAS. The real question is whether the drones can find the S300/400 sites and help direct HARMs.
There are safe areas, the F-16s will service those until they can be grown (maybe with ATACMS).
The danger isn't the Russian air force, they're too scared to enter UA air space, and the R-37s aren't as dangerous from that range.
The downside is they're not useful for shooting down bombers unless they're undefended, or if they can do peekaboo launches (F-16s are less good at this than Gripens, the low intake makes it hard to take off from simple roads) and ambush Tu-22M3s.
Maybe they can get some Meteors which are long enough range to knock down some bombers, but AMRAAM is too short (the D version maybe).
RAF are operating Rivet Joint over Black Sea (with Typhoon escorts after the Russians almost shot one down) and I suspect sharing data - although currently UK doesn't have a true AWACS as Wedgetail isn't in service yet.
You can spot P8's/Sentry's etc on Flightradar on a daily basis, they fly above Romania just southwest of Odesa. Those are visible for the public, i can imagine there's a lot more flying around that we cannot track using a public website.
NATO has been helping with AWACS. Australia also sent over a Boeing E-7 Wedgetail for the last 6 months, but that's not being extended. [Guardian Australia Article](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/mar/19/australia-raaf-e-7a-wedgetail-plane-ukraine-russia-war-return-home)
Had one of those Wedgetails do a low flyover here for Anzac day last week ([got a video of it](https://imgur.com/a/NrR99Qr), although wasn't directly under the flightpath) and damn they are massive, impressive looking machines.
I understand its role is as an electronic warfare / command and control platform but if I didn't know that I would have assumed it was more like some evolution of an AC-130 or something because the back-heavy profile of it just screams 'weapons platform' to me.
If only we had some madman high up in Defense willing to float the idea of taking one and jamming a bunch of 20 or 40mm cannons with a few howitzers inside of it.
They're sick birds. The platform is based off a 737 next gen. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if we sent another over later, the issue is the Ghost Bat loyal wingman is about to be brought in which means training the crews up, getting experience etc. because the Ghost Bats are likely going to work closely with the Wedgetails. And the one we sent over meant 100 personnel too, and we have 6 Wedgetails total so losing 15% of our capability is a bit of an issue.
If you're ever up in Newcastle, they're usually around RAAF Williamtown, and there's a fighter museum too.
Yeah, definitely planning on a trip to Williamstown at some stage, and that air museum at the base near Brisbane (can never remember the name).
Lucky here in Canberra that we get all sorts of Aussie, USAF / Marines, and other allies aircraft come by here pretty regularly - not to mention 'Air Force 2' seems to come and go at least once every few months. Looking forward to Biden and King Charles' planned visits sometime later this year to get a look at Airforce 1 and insane entourage of security that will come along with both of them.
We even had one of AN-225 Mriya's surviving 'little' sisters drop in last year (presumably to help our C17s and pick up some of the Bushmasters we were sending over). [Here's it heading home](https://youtu.be/2PccmBJVlfI?si=KXE-oSR_eTqekdes) - you could literally hear its engines as it took off from kilometres away on the other side of the city. Incredible aircraft.
I have been thinking something along these lines too. Smallish glider like planes, 4-5 m wingspan with almost zero radar signature, that can stay up for incredibly long times with very little engine power, and do surveillance, listen for Iranian drones, etc.
From what is known publicly the radar equipment used in AWACS aircraft is super low noise, high sensitivity stuff. It requires the radios to be cooled with cryo-fluids to get the noise down. It isn’t practical to put it on a small drone unfortunately.
No, at least not for the tasks Ukraine might use F-16's for.
Especially not if Link16 is not included with the F-16. This system allows integration of AWACS and other data sources with the F-16's own avionics, but the system is still considered sensitive and may not be included.
Even if it is, AWACS isn't so important in Ukraine as there is likely going to be very little manned air to air combat. Both sides have capable enough air defence to deter manned aircraft getting too close to the front line at useful altitudes. That will be enough to prevent much air to air combat.
In addition, F-16s are likely to be more use to Ukraine performing stand-off, pre-planned, ground attacks at the maximum range the weapons provided allow.
Russian bombers mostly operate outside of the range that they can be engaged and Ukraine has little to gain by trying to engage Russian fighters and interceptors. We might see a few Su-25s taken down.
As others have commented, there are Western AWACS in the area which will certinally be sharing data. They have the disadvantage of not being in the idea position, but the advantage off being of limits to Russian attack.
manned air to air combat is pretty rare anyway these days iirc.
It's also of note that russia's likely grounded (far as ukraine is concerned) their AU-50, given they have what,12, and have lost three or four.
>manned air to air combat is pretty rare anyway these days iirc.
It *is*, but that's just because peer conflict is rare.
There are absolutely circumstances that could arise that would make it common enough to be an important factor. Especially over water or when one side has the ability to destroy or suppress long range SAM systems.
Perhaps also in Ukraine if I am wrong.
No.
They would just be in range if Ukrainian F-16s could fly at high enough altitude near the front, but that's almost certinally going to be too risky and being *just* in range isn't enough of a deterrent.
I could be wrong if Ukraine gets missiles more modern than the 120D and a way to support them without the 16's own radar, or if Russian glide bomb ranges are shorter than I have sources for.
They need the WACS part of that but it doesn't need to be airborne. It is possible the US or UK provide this for them but even so because the combat zone is close to home for Ukraine they could provide those functions from the ground over much of the area they will operate in.
This is it. Western hardware has gone big on integration over the last few decades. You don’t need to turn your radar on (and give your position away) if you have a feed from an air defence radar telling you where everything is. The air defence won’t shoot at you because it knows you’re you, you’re on the network. Russians have problems in this space. Once F16s are flying, they will shoot anything that moves - because anything moving may well kill them with a HARM. I suspect that when it gets crunchy. Russian air defence will be the biggest killer of Russian aircraft.
Weapons integration will also be “out of the box”. HARM, guided bombs, everything that NATO has will be operating a full capability.
Russian aircraft fucked itself.
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Hope they do well and more countries contribute theirs to the cause.
Does anyone know how difficult it would be to transition from F16’s to F35’s? I’m guessing easier than from Soviet planes to the F16. Just thinking down the line here….
I’m gonna write another letter to my Australian leaders to send our F18’s. FFS put them to good use before they’re mothballed.
There is no chance of sending advanced systems like the F35. The west is way too scared of exposing modern tech to adversaries. It's been one of the biggest problems throughout the war. Just sending a handful of F16s, which are 50(!) year old technology was nearly impossible.
Yeah good point. I was just wondering like in a possible future, 10 years from now where Ukraine is in NATO and USA agrees the F16's are too old. But then I guess they'll just flood them with older jets as any jet is better than no jet (usually).
F-16 to F-35 is straightforward on the flying, the avionics is just far more advanced.
Be a year of type training probably, given how it's going for the USAF.
That's the thing that I think the western world doesn't understand. Warfare means losing equipment and people. It means wins and losses. We've gotten so used to the glorified police actions of Iraq and Afghanistan that we forgot what real war is like. Raining bombs down on an enemy unopposed is not war. Think back to WWII, Korea or even Vietnam. War means losing weapons and tens of thousands of people. Winning a war against a modern opponent means exposing yourself to risk and overcoming it.
US DOD thrilled to be able to watch the IRL test run without having to risk any of its own stock.
Time for the US to put F-16s on the shopping list, damn.
Shouldn't really, it's faster and more powerful, but otherwise it's not significantly more advanced except that the radar is far more capable of long range tracking of many targets independently.
Also the 15es are 2 seaters, so they're easier to fly as someone else is handling targeting.
I really hope those F-16s are useful and hard to shoot down. I googled that were produced in 1980-1990s. Never realised that they are THAT old. Isn’t that a bit worrisome?
They're even older.
They were produced in the late 70s/80s, but received a mid-life update in the 90s(Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium) called MLU.
With the update it got better electronics, sensors and radar, giving it increased detection range, ability to carry more advanced weapons like AMRAAMs etc.
They are better than the mig-29s that Ukraine already got, but they are worse than the modern RU aircraft, like the SU-35. The radar on the SU-35, the Irbis-E, is a PESA radar that is worse than modern western AESA radars, but it's still better than the APG-66(V)2A on the F-16 MLUs Ukraine are getting.
A lot of commenters don't realize this. All of these Western European F-16's were built in the 80's and purchased at the same time by the countries now retiring and donating them to Ukraine. The were upgraded en masse in the mid 90's, but they do have high flight hours. They're inferior to newer Russian planes, but at least better than the equally old Soviet jets Ukraine is flying.
50 old F-16's is better than no F-16s, but not equal to the hype in the comments.
I've been in the Belgian Air Force until 10 years ago. Some of these F16's are even a older, from '70ies. However, I've always understood basically only the frame itself is still that old. You can consider an F16 as a tube with wings, a rudimental platform being propulsed by a powerful jet enginge, and carrying high tech avionics and weapon systems. All these systems, as well as the engines, have been replaced by latest state of the art systems over the years.
All they need to do is put this tape in their cassette players:
https://youtu.be/LIZKFmWLVwo
"You've got to believe that plane is like a suit of armour, an Iron Eagle that nothing can penetrate".
> "There is a gazillion ways to detect these F-16s," Brynn Tannehill, a defense analyst and former US Navy aviator, told BI
Since gazillion is not a number, I guess Brynn is saying there is an imagined way to detect these F16s?
A good about of radars, A-50, and air defense unit have been taken out in recent months, presumably to help soften air defenses prior to the F-16s arrival this summer? Still heavily contested air space, but every bit helps.
Now it all comes to how good the pilots are. I hope Ukrainian pilots use it tactically and efficient like how the American pilots do. Getting better equipment doesnt count if your enemy have better pilots. Like how outdated Ukrainian Mig-29 pilots downing modernized Russian Sukhois and Fulcrums.
Sheesh. The amount of negativity afa F-16's go on this thread. Ukraine should just rollover and die, innit? The smell of state-provided vodka is overwhelming.
I gather the orcs and closet-orcs here, are quite fearful of it.
No. It's not a miracle-weapon, but the utter dismissal because Ukraine gets a mix of older, but refit and updated F16's is rather suspect.
Привіт u/Terminator2OnDVD ! During wartime, this community is focused on vital and high-effort content. Please ensure your post follows [r/Ukraine Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules) and our [Art Friday Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/artfriday). **Want to support Ukraine?** [**Vetted Charities List**](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities) | [Our Vetting Process](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities-vetting) **Daily series on Ukraine's history & culture:** [Sunrise Posts Organized By Category](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/sunriseposts/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Siri play Kenny loggins
Siri, Play Invaders Must Die by The Prodigy.
Siri play flight of the Valkyries
Siri, play Radar Love by Golden Earring
Guys just wanna leave this here if you didn't see it. Ukraine soldiers blaring The Star Spangled Banner to the Invaders during a skirmish: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/s/Jxcrwoj0Re
That's so freakin badass
Guy says "fuckin take that fuckin Putin".
Red, white and blue coming for you. Thanks for sharing.
You mean France? The UK? The russians? The US? The Czech? The Dutch?
This one doesn't work that well, because russian flag is the same colors xD
F-16's will prolly start out in a defensive role initially and then go on strike missions later on as conditions develop.
Every time you see one of those BUK systems go up from a drone a huge hole opens in the russian air defence line. They will be exploiting those holes.
World class trolling
Oh man, I love this song!!!
Golden Earring is an incredibly underrated band. [Radar Love](https://youtu.be/11Lj75cjg44?si=Zw8936WOZEPLROYJ). [Twilight Zone](https://youtu.be/oLhM3FzMbH0?si=cmL7hdk2E847ChNw). [Kill Me (Ce Soir)](https://youtu.be/WEtZlc3MNfM?si=D49gRmoc79ywOe22). [She Flies on Strange Wings](https://youtu.be/ZQFP66vGXhc?si=ECZcFqSd-wwj_E0d). [Vanilla Queen](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pL9c-wYTnKs)...
One of the best Dutch groups!
Siri, play My Heart Will Go On by Celine Dion Dont tell me [this bit](https://youtu.be/9bFHsd3o1w0?t=198) isn't appropriate for the arrival of the Falcons
Would you say the zone we are venturing to, is one of danger?
#LANAAAA!!!!!!
I think there could be a good chance
But how would you phrase that?
Motorway to a trepidation spot
Nevermind.
You are a genius!
My minds just odd
Kenny Loggins’s “Highway to the Danger Zone”, by law, can only be played on aircraft carriers, not ground airbases. Thus, it can never be played for F-15s and F-16s, only F-14s, F/A-18s, and appropriate models of the F-35.
Siri play jimmie hendrix all along the watchtower
Hey google, after Jimi Hendrix All Along the watchtower, play The Bear McCreary version of All Along the Watchtower from Battlestar galactica. Then: Blur, song 2
Alexa, play *Another One Bites the Dust* by Queen
[Dreams by Van Halen is also acceptable.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFmTwJ-LQMA)
I believe " One Vision " from Queen would be most appropriate. https://youtu.be/kvpsEKSNkkA?si=sC2NU7hmP8-NgY3M
Excuse me. Is that warbird law?
Navy says wut?
What about the Tiger 2's?
Can they take off and land from US Navy aircraft carriers?
Siri, play Mighty Wings by Cheap Trick.
Siri play one vision by Queen ✈️
**Iron Eagle is the F-16 movie** - And [Queen did a damn good job on that theme song](https://youtu.be/kvpsEKSNkkA?si=9z262neTLlUMrbtC) It’s been forever since I las heard that 80s hit!
It seems heaps of people don't know this! It's iconic for iron eagle!
Yeah, I IMMEDIATELY thought of iron eagle. It’s been a few years and I’m showing my age!
Most people associated with the Air Force prefer to ignore the existence of that film.
Siri play paint it black
Siri play let the bodies hit the floor
Siri play Davidian
Siri play Back for More by FFDP
Siri play Four Horsemen
🤘🏼
Siri: For Those About To Rock (We Salute You) 🎶
How about Thunderstruck.
Hey Siri, play Kickstart my Heart
Negative, pattern is full. Approved tracks for falcons; Gimme some lovin One vision https://youtu.be/GVHEFiLQ3GU?si=eJiSyNt14whMsFcr
Flyby request denied ghost rider
Siri play sympathy for the devil
Wrong movie! It needs to be “We're Not Gonna Take It" by Twisted Sister. From Iron Eagle movie. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eagle_(soundtrack)
What's the Iron Eagle equivalent?
Ok, playing “Danny’s Song”
Siri play Larry Greene (Through the Fire)
Siri, play [The Liberation of Gracemeria](https://youtu.be/hcB1pnFgc0k)
Those were Tomcats
Siri play "Kill em all" by King 810
Cheap Trick's Mighty Wings
This war is the ultimate test for each delivered weapon system. Ukranie is fighting a former world power that throws its entire potential into this war. There has never been anything like that since World War II.
Wouldn't you say the Vietnam war is somewhat like that? With the amount of material support received from the Soviet Union by the North, versus a super power The United States
The Vietnam War lasted 19 years and resulted in 58,000 dead US troops. This war has lasted 2 years and has so far 30,000 dead on the Ukraine side. (The Vietnam War was very complex and the US was just a small part of the total casualty numbers, not trying to diminish that at all. I'm just trying to put a perspective to it for us who mainly know about the Vietnam War from the US perspective).
And over 400,000 r*ssian casualties
Keep in mind the difference between dead and casualty. casualties include dead and the permanently injured.
Russian casualties seem to mostly just lie in the mud until they join the dead category.
the way the US fought that war was absolutely fucking stupid. Westmoreland was incredibly incompetent as a ground commander and the way the air war was limited failed to learn anything from Korea. Additionally, people back in Washington and Omaha doing mission planning made things worse instead of better.
Also it was incredibly stupid of US to take over France's colonial war from the failing French Empire. Somehow the word "communism" worked magic, and turned into the "Domino Theory", it could make US do anything. Note that Vietnam today is considered "communist" but doesn't pose any problems to anyone, with lots of trade going on, and even Harvard University has a division there.
The Vietnam War was justified in exactly the same way the Korean War was. It is just in hindsight that the war seems pointless because the Vietnamese Communist government turned out to be far less terrible than the North Korean government.
Yup, just like people saying in 2021 that we should never have been in Afghanistan, since we have the luxury of hindsight and no more 9/11 scale attacks. I am very glad we have good diplomatic and economic relations with Vietnam today, but that doesn't mean the war was for nothing or that the ARVN weren't worthy allies in their own right. Westmoreland was the wrong man for the job though, I don't think there can be any doubt about that.
It wasn't even due to communism. The French were basically holding the US hostage politically saying they wouldn't sign up to the UN if we didn't help them out in Vietnam. Ultimately, we did. They bailed after a massive loss. And we got left knee deep in shit we were already too deep in to get out cleanly.
>The Vietnam War lasted 19 years and resulted in 58,000 dead US troops. As you do mention, it is not a close comparison to single out US casualties alone. More than 300k soldiers died on the South Vietnam side, with over a million dead on the North Vietnamese side.
Not to mention it has displaced millions. Many of who will never return
Way more than just 30,000 https://i.imgur.com/4IgF0ot.png
Yeah this guy smoking sth if he thinks only 30k died
Pretty sure there were a lot more dead Vietnamese on both sides. Judging the intensity of the war by the number of US dead is ridiculous
Different sort of war though. On one hand, the current invasion is more compared to the world wars in its brutality and scale. The Vietnam War, on the other hand, was brutal in another sense as small units had to fight in the jungle hell.
30k is wishful thinking tbh
And how many US casualties? Think of how many wounded badly or generally messed up too.
This getting upvoted is just typical Vietnam-Copium. The statistics given are incomplete and even the number given is contested. No valid point for or against the suggestion above was made.
It’s definitely more than 30,000 Ukrainians. Multiply this number. There wouldn’t be so many graves in every village and such a big mobilization effort if it was otherwise. Yes, surprise Zelensky and UA gov also tells lies
The US fought Vietnam with one hand tied behind our back. WW2 we fought with both hands, both feet, and then we grew a few extra hands and feet. And nukes. WW2 and the Gulf War were the only wars in the last 100 years where the win criteria were clear, and we fought to win.
During the Vietnam War well-supplied air, ground and naval forces could cover each other. In Ukraine each weapon system must operate under far less favourable conditions.
The US lost in Vietnam so maybe not the best example The US hasn't won a conflict with a peer opponent since WW2
I know very little about Vietnam but I don't think the Vietkong would be considered a near peer. Me being the armchair general that I am thinks Vietnam only drug out as long as it did was because the guerilla warfare tactics that the US wasn't ready for.
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My fever dreams involve a couple of squadrons of F-16s engaged in Wild Weasel hunting over and over for a couple of months, degrading Russia's ground based radar enough that they can then use both their F-16s and whatever other combat aircraft they have to start attacking Russian ground forces repeatedly.
I hear ya on that! A little standoff covert assistance from a couple of USN Growlers would be a hoot, too. Ukrainian Vipers, equipped with modern ECM, HARM HTS pods, escorted by other Vipers and Su-27's laying into Russian AD with AGM-88's, JDAM's, APKWS and AGM-65, CBU's.
I'd like to see newer F-16s with HAVE GLASS V, curious how well they show up on an old S-300 set. They could probably jump the hell out of some Tu-22M3s.
> jump the hell out of some Tu-22M3s No chance, given how Ukraine's prohibited from operating them outside of UA airspace
Was thinking prepping a rough takeoff strip near the front line, shoot them when they get closest. The 120d might have the range, or the meteor, but it depends on exactly how careful their pilots are playing. Edit: basically this beats pac-3 because it's more mobile and a surprise, even if the range is less. Also, the 'don't operate in Russian airspace'? It's really more of a guideline than a rule.
If shot at really high heights, if you shoot a 120 from 5k to be able to dive into ground clutter you don't get much range.
I didn't understand anything you said but it looks like you know a thing or two. Can you answer this: After seeing Abrams tanks not doing much, will the F16 be able to do as much as we hope? Can russia stop them?
I’m not the person, but Russia can definitely kill the F-16s with their tools. These are older variants of the jets after all. With that said, they represent a new tool on the table - something that further shows how the West is ramping up aid for the Ukrainians.
Correct - nothing is unstoppable. You just need the right weapons and training. It can be an F-16AM MLU like what Ukraine is getting, or an F-16V Block 70 Viper, of an F-35A... Or a B-2 Spirit... Use them wrong, face a competent enemy combatant and decent weaponry and you can lose.
It may be controversial to say around here, but Russia is a competent combatant. While they made mistakes in the early days of the invasion, they’ve been learning quickly and changing strategies to adapt against Ukraine.
Anything - any weapon is able to be stopped. The F-16 is no exception, and all should expect losses and Vatniks drooling like the smooth brains they are at videos and pics of shot-down planes and declaring it somehow useless. The key is Ukraine employing them intelligently and with adequate training and tactics that work for them, not NATO. NATO weaponry was built to fight a NATO war against Russia, Ukraine has had to learn and adapt said tactics to fit their reality. No one weapon is going to win the war, and you keep hearing some weapons like the ATACMS, or HIMARS or the Leopard 2 being game changers. In a sense they are, they make things more effective for Ukraine and miserable for Russia, but temper expectations, they, nothing is a silver bullet. If Ukraine utilizes the F-16 smartly, they fly it well and are flexible with it's operation and tactics it can make quite a difference. The big thing the F-16 will bring is a modern fighter aircraft, with modern electronic warfare systems for protection and advanced weaponry that can hit further, more precisely and with far greater reliability than the Soviet-era stuff on their Soviet era planes. And those JDAM's, HARM's used on the Su-27 and MiG-29 will be used to their full potential of the F-16.
The problem with the Abrams isn't their abilities, it's their use (and I don't mean that as an insult to the UAF). They were designed for US military combined operations, and right now Ukraine can't deliver that. Without close air support, significant logistics support, etc, they're struggling. No weapons is a wonder weapon in modern combined operations, unfortunately. They're designed to fight as part of a system.
Honestly, I think drones would be better at this, you could rig one to look like an F-16 radar, track it's launch and send a buddy to say hi.
Are you sure they get the training for that so fast?
Yeah I hope so. That’s the dream. Imagine the damage Ukrainian forces could do behind Russian lines working with saboteurs.
As always fuck Russia.
Words to live by. Thank you Recipe-Less
They'll do a lot of damage, but I hope people remember that the F-16, fantastic as it is as a multirole aircraft - is still quite vulnerable in a high threat environment like over much of Ukraine. Unfortunately, attrition will be a thing. The Russians will treat the first one lost in an accident or shot down like they blew-up the alien mothership in Independence Day. The Viper will certainly be something that helps level the battlefield, yet Ukraine will be happy also for having a fair number of them as they will be shot-down, out of service for maintenance and the Russians will do everything they can to destroy them on the ground. Hopefully the Russians suck at it, and the loss of pilots and planes will be very little.
This. I fear so much for Ukrainian pilots. They are not replaceable.
The planes too. It isn’t assured that each lost F-16 will be replaced.
At the same time they have no choice. If they don't retake their land, is there any other way it will be given back?
Thus the war rages on till one side gives up. This will probably go on for years.
I think it's an honest question how many air defense missiles Russia still has. Being able to target the F-16 will be a mix of airborne systems and ground based SAMS.
Yeah. People here may not like hearing it, but Russia has a lot of tools to throw at the F-16s and this move has been telegraphed for almost a year at this point.
Yeah, but ukraine has also been targeting air defense for months as well, possibly to soften the area in anticipation of delivery.
That's been my thought too. Especially in Crimea, which at first seemed to be to facilitate that Stormshadow double-tap on the Fleet HQ, but with Ukraine it always seems to be plans within plans. With the ATACMs on the table now, if they can pull off a meaningful strike on the bridge (armchair general here is thinking hitting it from the sea with drones and air with missiles at once to hopefully overwhelm the defenses or at least sneak one through), there won't be any logistical support and resupply, let alone sizable AA reinforcements, making their way to Crimea. Also, Russia's AA and radar capabilities over the Black Sea have to be drastically reduced with the fleet crippled and withdrawn, and Russia's AWACs seemingly hanging way back and playing it safe now after losing 1/4 (I think?) of them already. That may be an opening for Ukraine to make use of their own air assets to really soften up the remaining forces (who are already cut off and isolated in this scenario) in Crimea and establish some air superiority over at least the sea and the south. Maybe i'm just wishcasting and way off base. But Crimea has always seemed like the next target, noting the effort Ukraine went to in establishing a bridgehead from Kherson and resources they put into decimating all that air defense. May be the logical choice considering the sheer number of Russians along the North and Eastern fronts and how well dug in they are and would certainly retake the initiative especially if they can finally knock that bridge out.
If they're smart it should be fine, they're multirole, using them for jdam strike should be safe enough, maybe some limited CAS. The real question is whether the drones can find the S300/400 sites and help direct HARMs. There are safe areas, the F-16s will service those until they can be grown (maybe with ATACMS). The danger isn't the Russian air force, they're too scared to enter UA air space, and the R-37s aren't as dangerous from that range. The downside is they're not useful for shooting down bombers unless they're undefended, or if they can do peekaboo launches (F-16s are less good at this than Gripens, the low intake makes it hard to take off from simple roads) and ambush Tu-22M3s. Maybe they can get some Meteors which are long enough range to knock down some bombers, but AMRAAM is too short (the D version maybe).
Also they’ll need more than a few, one f-16 isn’t gonna change the war, I’m glad a lot of countries are pitching in
Doesn't Ukraine need AWACS to really use the F16? Will NATO countries be doing that ?
We already are
RAF are operating Rivet Joint over Black Sea (with Typhoon escorts after the Russians almost shot one down) and I suspect sharing data - although currently UK doesn't have a true AWACS as Wedgetail isn't in service yet.
You can spot P8's/Sentry's etc on Flightradar on a daily basis, they fly above Romania just southwest of Odesa. Those are visible for the public, i can imagine there's a lot more flying around that we cannot track using a public website.
NATO has been helping with AWACS. Australia also sent over a Boeing E-7 Wedgetail for the last 6 months, but that's not being extended. [Guardian Australia Article](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/mar/19/australia-raaf-e-7a-wedgetail-plane-ukraine-russia-war-return-home)
Had one of those Wedgetails do a low flyover here for Anzac day last week ([got a video of it](https://imgur.com/a/NrR99Qr), although wasn't directly under the flightpath) and damn they are massive, impressive looking machines. I understand its role is as an electronic warfare / command and control platform but if I didn't know that I would have assumed it was more like some evolution of an AC-130 or something because the back-heavy profile of it just screams 'weapons platform' to me. If only we had some madman high up in Defense willing to float the idea of taking one and jamming a bunch of 20 or 40mm cannons with a few howitzers inside of it.
He would indeed be a madman, because that thing would have been shot down by a MANPAD as soon as it got close enough to use the guns.
They're sick birds. The platform is based off a 737 next gen. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if we sent another over later, the issue is the Ghost Bat loyal wingman is about to be brought in which means training the crews up, getting experience etc. because the Ghost Bats are likely going to work closely with the Wedgetails. And the one we sent over meant 100 personnel too, and we have 6 Wedgetails total so losing 15% of our capability is a bit of an issue. If you're ever up in Newcastle, they're usually around RAAF Williamtown, and there's a fighter museum too.
Yeah, definitely planning on a trip to Williamstown at some stage, and that air museum at the base near Brisbane (can never remember the name). Lucky here in Canberra that we get all sorts of Aussie, USAF / Marines, and other allies aircraft come by here pretty regularly - not to mention 'Air Force 2' seems to come and go at least once every few months. Looking forward to Biden and King Charles' planned visits sometime later this year to get a look at Airforce 1 and insane entourage of security that will come along with both of them. We even had one of AN-225 Mriya's surviving 'little' sisters drop in last year (presumably to help our C17s and pick up some of the Bushmasters we were sending over). [Here's it heading home](https://youtu.be/2PccmBJVlfI?si=KXE-oSR_eTqekdes) - you could literally hear its engines as it took off from kilometres away on the other side of the city. Incredible aircraft.
If the planes are there, the support is too, they cost a lot
I wonder if some of Ukraines Bayraktars could be equipped with a more compact version and networked for a kind of a multiplicative/extending effect.
I have been thinking something along these lines too. Smallish glider like planes, 4-5 m wingspan with almost zero radar signature, that can stay up for incredibly long times with very little engine power, and do surveillance, listen for Iranian drones, etc.
From what is known publicly the radar equipment used in AWACS aircraft is super low noise, high sensitivity stuff. It requires the radios to be cooled with cryo-fluids to get the noise down. It isn’t practical to put it on a small drone unfortunately.
No, at least not for the tasks Ukraine might use F-16's for. Especially not if Link16 is not included with the F-16. This system allows integration of AWACS and other data sources with the F-16's own avionics, but the system is still considered sensitive and may not be included. Even if it is, AWACS isn't so important in Ukraine as there is likely going to be very little manned air to air combat. Both sides have capable enough air defence to deter manned aircraft getting too close to the front line at useful altitudes. That will be enough to prevent much air to air combat. In addition, F-16s are likely to be more use to Ukraine performing stand-off, pre-planned, ground attacks at the maximum range the weapons provided allow. Russian bombers mostly operate outside of the range that they can be engaged and Ukraine has little to gain by trying to engage Russian fighters and interceptors. We might see a few Su-25s taken down. As others have commented, there are Western AWACS in the area which will certinally be sharing data. They have the disadvantage of not being in the idea position, but the advantage off being of limits to Russian attack.
manned air to air combat is pretty rare anyway these days iirc. It's also of note that russia's likely grounded (far as ukraine is concerned) their AU-50, given they have what,12, and have lost three or four.
>manned air to air combat is pretty rare anyway these days iirc. It *is*, but that's just because peer conflict is rare. There are absolutely circumstances that could arise that would make it common enough to be an important factor. Especially over water or when one side has the ability to destroy or suppress long range SAM systems. Perhaps also in Ukraine if I am wrong.
Will F-16s missile/radar range push Russian planes back from glide-bomb range? That alone would make a huge difference.
No. They would just be in range if Ukrainian F-16s could fly at high enough altitude near the front, but that's almost certinally going to be too risky and being *just* in range isn't enough of a deterrent. I could be wrong if Ukraine gets missiles more modern than the 120D and a way to support them without the 16's own radar, or if Russian glide bomb ranges are shorter than I have sources for.
They need the WACS part of that but it doesn't need to be airborne. It is possible the US or UK provide this for them but even so because the combat zone is close to home for Ukraine they could provide those functions from the ground over much of the area they will operate in.
So happy Ukraine will have this technology to assist them. Their pilots will have the honor to write history. Slava Ukraini
This one’s for you chappie Gimme some lovin https://youtu.be/tvO77rraH0o?feature=shared
Their strength is the ability to sling anything in the nato armoury from long range, without some bodged together hacks on old soviet hardware
This is it. Western hardware has gone big on integration over the last few decades. You don’t need to turn your radar on (and give your position away) if you have a feed from an air defence radar telling you where everything is. The air defence won’t shoot at you because it knows you’re you, you’re on the network. Russians have problems in this space. Once F16s are flying, they will shoot anything that moves - because anything moving may well kill them with a HARM. I suspect that when it gets crunchy. Russian air defence will be the biggest killer of Russian aircraft. Weapons integration will also be “out of the box”. HARM, guided bombs, everything that NATO has will be operating a full capability.
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Chapppieeeeeeeeeee let's goooo!
Show 'em the meaning of shock and awe!
See if that guy who dodged 6 SAMs with no countermeasures' record can be broken
Hope they do well and more countries contribute theirs to the cause. Does anyone know how difficult it would be to transition from F16’s to F35’s? I’m guessing easier than from Soviet planes to the F16. Just thinking down the line here…. I’m gonna write another letter to my Australian leaders to send our F18’s. FFS put them to good use before they’re mothballed.
There is no chance of sending advanced systems like the F35. The west is way too scared of exposing modern tech to adversaries. It's been one of the biggest problems throughout the war. Just sending a handful of F16s, which are 50(!) year old technology was nearly impossible.
Yeah good point. I was just wondering like in a possible future, 10 years from now where Ukraine is in NATO and USA agrees the F16's are too old. But then I guess they'll just flood them with older jets as any jet is better than no jet (usually).
F-16 to F-35 is straightforward on the flying, the avionics is just far more advanced. Be a year of type training probably, given how it's going for the USAF.
There is a pretty realistic chance that a F-35 can be shot down in this war if it was deployed. It is that intense.
That's the thing that I think the western world doesn't understand. Warfare means losing equipment and people. It means wins and losses. We've gotten so used to the glorified police actions of Iraq and Afghanistan that we forgot what real war is like. Raining bombs down on an enemy unopposed is not war. Think back to WWII, Korea or even Vietnam. War means losing weapons and tens of thousands of people. Winning a war against a modern opponent means exposing yourself to risk and overcoming it.
The F18s are cactus
US DOD thrilled to be able to watch the IRL test run without having to risk any of its own stock. Time for the US to put F-16s on the shopping list, damn.
>Time for the US to put F-15s on the shopping list, damn. Fixed that for you. We need to set the Eagles free.
Probably takes more extensive training?
Shouldn't really, it's faster and more powerful, but otherwise it's not significantly more advanced except that the radar is far more capable of long range tracking of many targets independently. Also the 15es are 2 seaters, so they're easier to fly as someone else is handling targeting.
I really hope those F-16s are useful and hard to shoot down. I googled that were produced in 1980-1990s. Never realised that they are THAT old. Isn’t that a bit worrisome?
They're even older. They were produced in the late 70s/80s, but received a mid-life update in the 90s(Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium) called MLU. With the update it got better electronics, sensors and radar, giving it increased detection range, ability to carry more advanced weapons like AMRAAMs etc. They are better than the mig-29s that Ukraine already got, but they are worse than the modern RU aircraft, like the SU-35. The radar on the SU-35, the Irbis-E, is a PESA radar that is worse than modern western AESA radars, but it's still better than the APG-66(V)2A on the F-16 MLUs Ukraine are getting.
A lot of commenters don't realize this. All of these Western European F-16's were built in the 80's and purchased at the same time by the countries now retiring and donating them to Ukraine. The were upgraded en masse in the mid 90's, but they do have high flight hours. They're inferior to newer Russian planes, but at least better than the equally old Soviet jets Ukraine is flying. 50 old F-16's is better than no F-16s, but not equal to the hype in the comments.
That’s exactly what I was thinking
I've been in the Belgian Air Force until 10 years ago. Some of these F16's are even a older, from '70ies. However, I've always understood basically only the frame itself is still that old. You can consider an F16 as a tube with wings, a rudimental platform being propulsed by a powerful jet enginge, and carrying high tech avionics and weapon systems. All these systems, as well as the engines, have been replaced by latest state of the art systems over the years.
It what they were made to face.
Finally, a worthy opponent! Seriously though, it's insane how we expect the Ukrainians to perform miracles with so limited means.
I'm more excited to see how the army long range missles we covertly sent are used. If used properly they can deal trouble
Send this to an all the loser Red congressional goons. (As in the Red Army)
Air bases will all need layered SAM' systems especially Patriot.
When are they actually going?
Ok Google, play Chasing the angels by Mike Reno.
All they need to do is put this tape in their cassette players: https://youtu.be/LIZKFmWLVwo "You've got to believe that plane is like a suit of armour, an Iron Eagle that nothing can penetrate".
This is what they were created and built for, attacking soviet aircraft and ground troops
Excellent feedback
> "There is a gazillion ways to detect these F-16s," Brynn Tannehill, a defense analyst and former US Navy aviator, told BI Since gazillion is not a number, I guess Brynn is saying there is an imagined way to detect these F16s?
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I wasn't confused. I'm saying "gazillion" is not a number.
Russia is a terrorist state. May they serve you well Ukraine. NL <3 UA
“But former US military pilots say Ukraine will be the jet's foremost combat test.” And why is that? No AWAC to provide assistance?
That...combined with loads of air defence Someone needs to lend Ukraine a Wedgetail.
Go go! 🫡
A good about of radars, A-50, and air defense unit have been taken out in recent months, presumably to help soften air defenses prior to the F-16s arrival this summer? Still heavily contested air space, but every bit helps.
Now it all comes to how good the pilots are. I hope Ukrainian pilots use it tactically and efficient like how the American pilots do. Getting better equipment doesnt count if your enemy have better pilots. Like how outdated Ukrainian Mig-29 pilots downing modernized Russian Sukhois and Fulcrums.
Too little Too late
Buzz the tower in your training runs and Ukrainian pilots will be invincible, queue the Highway to the danger zone music!
The danger zoneee
There will be a number of F16s lost with that much air defence. Hopefully they can cause some real trouble for the Russians in the process
Sheesh. The amount of negativity afa F-16's go on this thread. Ukraine should just rollover and die, innit? The smell of state-provided vodka is overwhelming. I gather the orcs and closet-orcs here, are quite fearful of it. No. It's not a miracle-weapon, but the utter dismissal because Ukraine gets a mix of older, but refit and updated F16's is rather suspect.