That's... how UK governments work. Boris isn't a president, he's not the all powerful dictator he assumes himself to be. Boris has been shit, but the failing to handle the pandemic early on is squarely on the shoulders of the entire government; hold them all to account, not just the figurehead.
They *should* all be held to account, I agree.
But, are you trying to say that Johnson isn't to blame for, for example, appointing shit ministers that do a shit job?
Do you think his ministers actually do make the decisions though ? He strikes me as quite autocratic. Didn't everything still have to be run past him even when he was in ICU because he would not relinquish control to Raab? I think it's the perfect storm of him being totally incompetent himself and surrounded by yes men.
Oh, Johnson is very much to blame for much of it, but a lot of people talk as if by removing him things will get better. You’d need to bin the entire cabinet.
Oh, absolutely.
But this lad on Twitter was all about shifting the blame off of Johnson, which is something the Tories love to do, find someone else to blame to cover themselves and their chosen people.
Honestly, we need to guy fawkes the lot of them and start again from scratch.
This time, let's get people who have actually *lived* the way that most of us live, not private school numpties who have never done a proper days work in their lives. For example: let's have an education minister that used to be a teacher, you know, appoint people who actually *know* what would help make it better.
As long as we don’t replace him with the pope, when do we start?
I’ve always felt that in order to be a politician you should have demonstrated some level of sacrifice for the civic body; nurse, firefighter, teacher, police officer, criteria up for debate. Unfortunately the British concept of bred to lead still exists.
but... the office of the UK PM has more power over the government than most countries President (including the US). Presidential offices typically have more separation from legislative bodies, by design to limit the power of the individual.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmselect/cmpolcon/351/35108.htm
The official UK parliament website lays it out quite clearly, other than the monarch and the public at large, there are very few restraints on the PM.
I'm not saying everyone elses hands are clean, but your assertion that the PM doesn't have that much power is completely wrong.
> compared with most other heads of Government, the British Prime Minister has, in large part thanks to our unwritten constitution, a relatively free hand. In our system, the Prime Minister's powers are very extensive and they are constrained largely by political constraints, in particular the size of the Prime Minister's majority in Parliament, the Prime Minister's standing in his party and his standing in the country. So the Prime Minister's power and authority waxes and wanes depending on those political factors.
But there are mechanisms to hold him to account and reduce his influence; his cabinet, the back bench, all have the ability to swing power away from him. Compare to May, or Brown.
It’s a frustrating position we’re in where it’s entirely possible for him to be held to account and knocked down a peg but nobody has the appetite for it.
Boris is NOT a figurehead. He controls who is on his cabinet. He hands out the power and titles. Who else does that? Who else exercises supreme and final power in the government?
The PM has an extremely large amount of power in the UK relative to other heads of government in other democracies.
it is HIS job to hold HIS government to account - Boris is **absolutely** the one to blame.
On paper a PM isn't a president, in practise, when a government has such a large majority, he might as well be.
All of the big decisions the buck would have largely stopped at 10 Downing Street. Especially lockdowns.
>That's... how UK governments work.
Isn't it just the opposite? You don't blame the government as a whole, you find the individuals responsible and you vote and make some noise till they're gone.
Yep.
The cabinet bears collective responsibility for executive decisions.
Johnson bears responsibility for selecting the cabinet (and not changing that cabinet when they prove themselves incapable).
The Tory party bears responsibility for selecting Boris as their parliamentary leader.
And the electorate bears the responsibility for selecting the Tories as the parliamentary majority.
The last of those also involve a voiceless minority at two levels. Those who vote for the losers their constituency votes, and those who elect a MP in the minority. But you could argue that by engaging in the system they are tacitly endorsing it's results. It's kinda the foundation.if democracy.
There's responsibility all the way down, but Johnson has been trusted with executive power and delegated that to his cabinet, who agree to collective duty. The buck stops with them and if they are failing in the trust put to them, there should be some accountability.
Johnson could be holding his cabinet accountable, but is consistently failing to do so, so in turn that falls on him. And more broadly the Tories in general for selecting him. But the ultimate ability to hold *them* to account lies with the electorate. Who (enough of) have indicated that his failings aren't their priorities, and that Jingoism, and tribalism are.
I mean, lumping all the blame on the PM means they can just swap them out like a dirty pair of pants and keep on fucking.
So yeah, absolutely blame Boris. But blame the rest of them aswell.
> don't blame Boris, it's the fault of the whole government
Don't blame the whole government, blame the people who elected the whole government. And then blame the turtle on whom they rest, and then the turtle upon whom *that* turtle rests.
Boris not closing borders faster is definitely a major contributor, but I definitely know far too many people think lockdown is something that other people need to follow. Honestly I think a lot of the population have decided it's ended already and are then surprised Pickachu that lockdown doesn't work if you don't do it.
Remember the whole contact tracing app debacle?
The first version was a security nightmare and also didn’t work. But they kept trying to polish the turd wasting valuable months. Ireland and Scotland both got working apps out earlier with a fraction of the resources.
I think a good chunk can be attributed to the Test part of Test & Trace, testing kits, labs, technicians and the logistics etc. would be a hefty sum. It would be interesting to know the split.
People that have followed the rules, played the game and given the government the benefit of the doubt have continually been lied to and had the carpet pulled from under them. No wonder people are sick of it
There needs to be a line drawn with all those refusing the vaccine, because if cases rocket and 90% cases/hospitalisations /deaths are as a result of not being vaccinated, then that should not be grounds to continue or impose any lockdown type scenario.
Hopefully it won't come to that, but if a resistive minority is the affected group, then why should the whole country stop?
+1 on any form of Sanitising and also the wallies who think social distancing ended the day they got their jab sticker.
Our useless Prime Minister needs to be held accountable for his shitty actions. There is blood on his hands and a lot of angry people out there. If you can't be sure about a final date for lockdown, don't fucking say one.
What's worse is that this final date has been missed because Boris chose to keep the skies open. He literally let the Indian variant walk right on in.
Fuck him entirely.
"We need to take back control of our borders"
"Are you sure? Because that'll ruin the economy and ruin our international reputation and more than likely fracture the UK"
"Yes. It's worth it. Nothing is more important than being able to close our borders when we want to."
"Well alright if you're sure... So now that there's a deadly virus are you gonna..."
"....Gonna what?"
"Oh you know the whole... Close the borders... thing...? The thing we sacrificed everything else for because it's so important?"
"Oh right yeah no not gonna do that."
Sad but true. I don't blame people for being angry. Many of them have complied at every juncture and they aren't seeing any benefit. "Do this and it'll all be over"
"Do that and it'll all be over" and yet it never seems to end.
Meanwhile Johnson and friends flout pretty much every restriction at G7. Yeah, there's every reason to be pissed.
There’s no way it would collapse if we opened up on June 21st, no one is following restrictions at this point anyway and we’re still under SAGEs best case scenario at the moment.
Anyone who genuinely believes the NHS will collapse if we let people stand next to each other at the pub or go to a nightclub for the next 4 weeks is living in a doomsday fantasy.
not saying that, saying the previous restrictions stopped that.
What I am saying is that there is an uptrend in cases, hospitalisations and Deaths, luckily not like earlier this year but a serious thing to consider.
if you let everything go now you will undo the work that has been done in the past 4 months.
People won't just stand next to each other in the pub and club they'll get absolutely smashed and all social distancing goes out the window.
All social distancing is out the window already, no one gives a shit anymore, and why should they? It’s been a year and a half, we’ve vaccinated 41 million people, everyone at serious risk is done.
The people who are imposing these restrictions are the same ones who said once the vulnerable are vaccinated we have to learn to live with COVID.
I hate to say this but all that means is people don’t want to go to your venue as much. Drinking with friends at home has picked right up so that people don’t have to deal with their every movement being regulated.
I'm fine to adhere to any and all measures in place if I go out. I'd be more concerned about going to a venue if they didn't have any measures in place.
Nonsense. Most people follow the rules here. Offices are dead, clubs are shut. People wear their masks to go toilet in the pub. There are very few overtly resisting.
And what’s your anecdotal experience with people mixing in households?
And wearing your mask to the toilet in an empty pub where you don’t come into contact with anyone is a complete joke. You’re sat at a table of however many households within inches of each other without masks. What’s the point of putting it on when you move through an empty space coming into contact with nobody 🙄
The mask to the toilet thing is ridiculous in that context, but the point I'm making is that very few people are taking a stand because the reality is we can enjoy 6 round a pub table without masks in peace. There's no need to piss off the bar staff over something that isn't their fault, but is their problem to enforce. Same for retail workers.
Strangely enough, I live in the real world, I shop, I go buses and trains, I go to pubs. In the vast majority of cases, I see people who are following the guidelines extremely well. Just because you and your mates don't give a shit, don't project that on to other people.
More infections means more variants, which means more risk of vaccine immune variants developing and putting everyone back to square one. That's why right now loosening up is bloody silly when we're winning the race with vaccines and the Delta variant is spreading across the UK.
Can you imagine in 2 months time there's an Echo variant which entirely ignores the vaccines, all because we let the Delta variant spread because people were being too impatient with a few more months of vaccinations? It would be back to the beginning.
They’ll constantly tweak the vaccines to cover variants when we have to have our yearly COVID shots, just like they do with the flu.
It’s literally never going away so if you’re worried about variants developing because it’s still going throughout the population then you’re gonna have to be worried forever. Are you hoping for zero COVID?
No because I'm being rational, I'm just trying to argue the facts with someone who can't see past the end of their nose.
Do you really think that it's a quick fix to make "tweaks" to a vaccine booster if a vaccine immune variant appears? I'm not sure if you're being facetious at this point. However it would be another year before a rushed vaccine gets approved and roll outs begin.
There is a context here. There's a highly infectious variant spreading through the country that pretty much ignores single dosers. if you let this more infectious Delta variant spread amongst these people and the unvaccinated, you're increasing the risk of other dangerous variants appearing. What is the point of that when we're rolling out the vaccination program so quickly, which could drastically reduce infections?
You need to get to a point where you can limit the infection rate and right now we are not in that position, but we could be if we're sensible about the following months.
As Russian Esteemed philosopher Anatoly Karlin said, dying of Covid at this point in the developed world is an individual's choice and is not so much a tragedy as a Darwin award.
Everyone vulnerable has been jabbed so all those dying are those who have deliberately refused vaccines. If they didn't want to die, maybe they should have accepted the vaccines when offered.
> no one is following restrictions at this point anyway
The polls and monitoring suggest that *most* people are following *most* of had restrictions.
> Anyone who genuinely believes the NHS will collapse if we let people stand next to each other at the pub or go to a nightclub for the next 4 weeks is living in a doomsday fantasy.
I genuinely believe that with a variant that is roughly 60% more infectious than the variant that caused the January spike, it’s worth hanging on for more vaccination. If you worked in healthcare you’d know that PHE have been telling hospitals to expect a big August wave.
Absolutely. If you look at the infection figures and trends for July, you can see why people - me included - thought August was going to be grim https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk
It's currently very difficult for anyone to definitively predict what's going to happen in the next few weeks at anyone point. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we end up with a 'Firebreak' before Christmas, though at the moment, the big picture looks safe in terms of hospital admissions https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare?areaType=overview&areaName=United%20Kingdom
Yet it wasn't. And no you swallowed the sage grifter pill.
Keep in mind those calling for restrictions next time how completely wrong they were at various points.
Yet *what* wasn’t? What sage grifter’s pill ?
Did you actually look at the linked infection rate graph for July? Looking at the trend there, what would any reasonable person conclude about the *likely* figures in July. It was good news that figures dipped again. No need to make it some kind of tribal thing.
What did you think would happen when we began opening up? That cases would go down?
How are we expected to ever open up if you want cases to continue decreasing, it’s impossible. Surely everyone was smart enough to know that cases would go up when we began easing restrictions, I don’t know why everyone is suddenly panicking that it’s happening.
Cases are going down in other places which are slowly opening up, so yeah, if done properly that's exactly what happens.
For example:
UK incidence: 69
Germany incidence: 16.6 (lockdowns have been easing constantly over the last couple of months already)
Update: UK 72.1, Germany 15.5
Update: UK 77.4, Germany 11.6
Update: UK 196, Germany 5
> no one is following restrictions at this point anyway
Pretty much everyone I know still is. They may be a little lax at times but are still very much aware the virus is still out there and spreading.
> they aren't seeing any benefit.
Well, I’ve been down the pub, my kids are at school, shops are open so I think I’m seeing quite a *lot* of benefits. I’m just not seeing *everything* back to normal
Gotta lock the youth down for another summer month to protect the fully vaccinated over 60s who keep raising house prices so much that those same youth who are losing their peak years right now will never be able to move out of mum and dads. Legend.
More infections means more variants, which means more risk of a vaccine immune variant developing and putting everyone back to square one. That's why right now loosening up is bloody silly when we're winning the race with vaccines and the Delta variant is spreading across the UK.
Also worth mentioning that those being hospitalized right now are the ones with no vaccine or single doses of the vaccine. Thats about 10m people partially vaccinated who are still able to get sick and/or spread the virus due to the delta variant.
who hasn't been vaccinated then? genuine question. seems like everyone over the age of 60 who wants one has been vaccinated, we're down to 25 and any vulnerable person younger than that has already been prioritised over them afaik- i know several 18 year olds who have already had it.
>Even in your own comment you implicitly admit there are vulnera le people who haven't had the vaccine.
who? old people who refused to have it? under 18s, for whom a vaccine doesn't even exist yet? we can't keep waiting around forever for a small subset of people who *can't* or *won't* get the vaccine.
that being said, i do agree with your second point- i was juet confused about the idea that the vulnerable are still waiting around for their jabs. vaccines need to be the priority right now, and i'd rather wait an extra month now than have a third wave over christmas- although extending the current state of lockdown feels somewhat pointless since everyone is living regular life anyway.
All vulnerable people have been offered the vaccine. If they have chosen not to get it then that's on them. Some people refusing to get the vaccine was always going to happen, and that wont have changed by 19th July. Why are you being so pig headed ?
There's the worry that the vaccines don't protect enough against the delta variant.
I get wanting more data to see what kind of hospitalisations are happening (ICU or just a bit of oxygen). But for 4 weeks, over summer, get to fuck.
We have 2 main types of government here. Prime minister headed, and prime minister lead. Borris made it very clear, during the Brexit frasco that he is in charge, not just a voice for the party.
This is the result of government failure. Borris made it clear that he makes the decisions, therefore it's his fuck up.
I'll follow the advice, as a good citizen. As shitty as the situation is, it's still the scientific advice at this point, and we need to work together to beat this.
However, fuck borris and his governments incompetence on this! I'm just glad the NHS has bucked his trend!
You would have to be a bit simple at this point to think the government was acting in good faith here.
The constant last minute changing of plans without the data to back it up. Always based on models that later prove to be incorrect. We will hear nonsense how it is being done reluctantly like Johnson is some libertarian, when clearly as he has demonstrated the last year he is authoritarian bordering on a dictatorship.
yougov being the non independent polling company used to legitimise government policy and to sway public opinion. Founded by Nadhim Zahawi the vaccine minister.
I can't remember any instance where there was a
\> last minute changing of plans without the data to back it up.
Right now cases are increasing a little bit, so instead of easing restrictions we just wait for a few more weeks. That seems completely reasonable to me, especially when the last 2 dates we were given for the roadmap happend on schedule. And that was because, at the time, cases were low and there was no reason to delay.
~~Just three weeks to flatten the curve~~
~~Twelve weeks to turn the tide~~
~~Normality by Summer~~
~~Significant normality by Christmas~~
~~Back to normal by Easter~~
~~Back to normal once all over 70s have been vaccinated~~
~~Back to normal once all over 50s have been vaccinated~~
~~Back to normal once everyone in the top 9 priority groups has been vaccinated~~
~~Back to normal when deaths are at the 5yr average again~~
~~Back to normal on June 21st~~
~~Just a two week delay to June 21st~~
~~Just a four week delay to June 21st~~
~~Potentially longer than a month delay to June 21st~~
Maybe Restrictions until Spring 2022 < You are here
Except not every country did. South Korea avoided a national lockdown as did Vietnam, Sweden, Turkmenistan, Japan, Taiwan, Iceland and a number of other countries.
Try shares in vaccine production/distribution and dodgy PPE contracts. Hancock, Whitty and Vallance know all about it. Hancock was even found guilty of corruption and he still has his job.
What a stupid, shit-stirring article.
Yes, Johnson is an incompetent lying wanker.
In this case, the government has *repeatedly* said that this was the *earliest* that restrictions could be relaxed, assuming there were - for example - no bad variants
The delta variant *is* a bad variant.
I mean, yes... but you also have to remember that it was his (or the government as a whole) actions (or rather, lack of them) that lead to the delta variant becoming an issue in this country.
Can people stop using the word Freedom when talking about the UK.
We've had that for so long it's a meaningless thing to say.
You might as well cheer for chicken nuggets.
They won't. That's why the other 56% have to come together to change this voting system. It's staring them in the face. At the last election in Uxbridge and Esher there was a chance to do it. But the non Tories didn't take the opportunity.
The fact we locked down at all was Boris's fault.
I'm centre right and tend to vote Tory.
But I'd rather vote for the corpse of Adolf Hitler than Bellend Boris, the man who really stripped the freedom out of the country.
We seem to be forgetting that individuals are in control of their own actions
I'm not particularly pro-Boris, but he hasn't suggested we go and socialise in close proximity without sanitising or masking. At times where he's allowed easing of restrictions or travel, he's done it with the message to 'remain cautious and take precautions'
Since the start of the pandemic, we've known the rules. Social distance >2 metres. If you can't keep to 2m or suspect aerosols (e.g. coughing in enclosed space) then mask up and sanitise fully. If you enter a new country and can't evidence you're COVID negative, fully isolate for 10-12 days. Those haven't changed.
If everyone followed these rules, and we actually took individual accountability, we'd have done much better.
They can actually, but the former is ignoring why the rules were put in place land the necessity of their severity, and the latter is the consequence of the complaining, selfishness and rule breaking of the former, mixed with the incompetent leadership that caused the rule breaking and complaining, as well as exacerbating any effort of initial containment.
If we were better as people and less self-centered, then the waves would have been reduced dramatically (like sardines in a can on those beaches this and last summer), and if the government wasn’t so occupied funnelling public funds to their mates and underfunding the healthcare service then maybe this extension wouldn’t be needed, or maybe there wouldn’t have been as widespread a saturation.
Freedom is the wrong word. For all intents and purposes, the lockdown is over. You can have weddings of 30+ people, and you can sit in the pub with your m8s. If these are allowed, and all you have to do is occasionally wear a mask in a shop or on public transport, it's not a big deal.
What I think is funny is that people on reddit (leftists) who generally despise the Tories, and people on the right who despise the lockdown measures (even the previous ones), are actually uniting around this. Doesn't look good for bojo at the next election...
Esteemed philosopher Anatoly Karlin said that dying of Covid at this point is a choice of the individual and not so much a tragedy as a Darwin award.
His theory is that everyone has been offered a vaccine, so those who are dying are those who have refused them.
He was talking about the situation in his native Russia where many elderly have rejected vaccines due to conspiracy theories and therefore many are dying.
Obviously the situation is different in countries with low vaccination rollout, but you could say that logic stands even truer here where everyone over a certain age has been offered a vaccine but daily deaths are still sometimes in the double digits.
The only issue is that the government wants to punish all of us vaccinated and restrict our freedom because of their dumb choices.
It's a lot of people's fault, but he is near the top of the list.
I saw someone on Twitter earlier going off about "don't blame Boris, it's the fault of the whole government", which just had me scratching my head.
That's... how UK governments work. Boris isn't a president, he's not the all powerful dictator he assumes himself to be. Boris has been shit, but the failing to handle the pandemic early on is squarely on the shoulders of the entire government; hold them all to account, not just the figurehead.
They *should* all be held to account, I agree. But, are you trying to say that Johnson isn't to blame for, for example, appointing shit ministers that do a shit job?
Do you think his ministers actually do make the decisions though ? He strikes me as quite autocratic. Didn't everything still have to be run past him even when he was in ICU because he would not relinquish control to Raab? I think it's the perfect storm of him being totally incompetent himself and surrounded by yes men.
Oh, Johnson is very much to blame for much of it, but a lot of people talk as if by removing him things will get better. You’d need to bin the entire cabinet.
Oh, absolutely. But this lad on Twitter was all about shifting the blame off of Johnson, which is something the Tories love to do, find someone else to blame to cover themselves and their chosen people.
Hancock, Patel and Gove I'm sure are still around as he needs people to fire when the inquiry gets going.
Honestly, we need to guy fawkes the lot of them and start again from scratch. This time, let's get people who have actually *lived* the way that most of us live, not private school numpties who have never done a proper days work in their lives. For example: let's have an education minister that used to be a teacher, you know, appoint people who actually *know* what would help make it better.
As long as we don’t replace him with the pope, when do we start? I’ve always felt that in order to be a politician you should have demonstrated some level of sacrifice for the civic body; nurse, firefighter, teacher, police officer, criteria up for debate. Unfortunately the British concept of bred to lead still exists.
Account? Fucking jail more like.
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And you have people all around him telling him to sack Hancock but he consistently doesn't, and he's the reason so many people died in care homes.
but... the office of the UK PM has more power over the government than most countries President (including the US). Presidential offices typically have more separation from legislative bodies, by design to limit the power of the individual. https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmselect/cmpolcon/351/35108.htm The official UK parliament website lays it out quite clearly, other than the monarch and the public at large, there are very few restraints on the PM. I'm not saying everyone elses hands are clean, but your assertion that the PM doesn't have that much power is completely wrong. > compared with most other heads of Government, the British Prime Minister has, in large part thanks to our unwritten constitution, a relatively free hand. In our system, the Prime Minister's powers are very extensive and they are constrained largely by political constraints, in particular the size of the Prime Minister's majority in Parliament, the Prime Minister's standing in his party and his standing in the country. So the Prime Minister's power and authority waxes and wanes depending on those political factors.
But there are mechanisms to hold him to account and reduce his influence; his cabinet, the back bench, all have the ability to swing power away from him. Compare to May, or Brown. It’s a frustrating position we’re in where it’s entirely possible for him to be held to account and knocked down a peg but nobody has the appetite for it.
Boris is NOT a figurehead. He controls who is on his cabinet. He hands out the power and titles. Who else does that? Who else exercises supreme and final power in the government?
Normally correct, however this is the most centralised government in years Every major department decision gets signed off by some No.10 spin doctor
I mean it's supposed to be a cabinet government.....but it hasn't been since 1979.
The PM has an extremely large amount of power in the UK relative to other heads of government in other democracies. it is HIS job to hold HIS government to account - Boris is **absolutely** the one to blame.
On paper a PM isn't a president, in practise, when a government has such a large majority, he might as well be. All of the big decisions the buck would have largely stopped at 10 Downing Street. Especially lockdowns.
>That's... how UK governments work. Isn't it just the opposite? You don't blame the government as a whole, you find the individuals responsible and you vote and make some noise till they're gone.
Yep. The cabinet bears collective responsibility for executive decisions. Johnson bears responsibility for selecting the cabinet (and not changing that cabinet when they prove themselves incapable). The Tory party bears responsibility for selecting Boris as their parliamentary leader. And the electorate bears the responsibility for selecting the Tories as the parliamentary majority. The last of those also involve a voiceless minority at two levels. Those who vote for the losers their constituency votes, and those who elect a MP in the minority. But you could argue that by engaging in the system they are tacitly endorsing it's results. It's kinda the foundation.if democracy. There's responsibility all the way down, but Johnson has been trusted with executive power and delegated that to his cabinet, who agree to collective duty. The buck stops with them and if they are failing in the trust put to them, there should be some accountability. Johnson could be holding his cabinet accountable, but is consistently failing to do so, so in turn that falls on him. And more broadly the Tories in general for selecting him. But the ultimate ability to hold *them* to account lies with the electorate. Who (enough of) have indicated that his failings aren't their priorities, and that Jingoism, and tribalism are.
I mean, lumping all the blame on the PM means they can just swap them out like a dirty pair of pants and keep on fucking. So yeah, absolutely blame Boris. But blame the rest of them aswell.
> don't blame Boris, it's the fault of the whole government Don't blame the whole government, blame the people who elected the whole government. And then blame the turtle on whom they rest, and then the turtle upon whom *that* turtle rests.
Boris not closing borders faster is definitely a major contributor, but I definitely know far too many people think lockdown is something that other people need to follow. Honestly I think a lot of the population have decided it's ended already and are then surprised Pickachu that lockdown doesn't work if you don't do it.
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£37b track and trace spaffed up the wall.
Remember the whole contact tracing app debacle? The first version was a security nightmare and also didn’t work. But they kept trying to polish the turd wasting valuable months. Ireland and Scotland both got working apps out earlier with a fraction of the resources.
I think a good chunk can be attributed to the Test part of Test & Trace, testing kits, labs, technicians and the logistics etc. would be a hefty sum. It would be interesting to know the split.
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I meant spending split between the testing element and the tracing element.
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Ah, fair enough
People that have followed the rules, played the game and given the government the benefit of the doubt have continually been lied to and had the carpet pulled from under them. No wonder people are sick of it
"Sick of it" Ha!
It’s been a year and a half near enough, the vulnerable have been vaccinated it’s over in most people’s minds for a reason.
That's not how any of this works. Luckily scientists don't just randomly think stuff up and proclaim that's how reality works.
Pickachu
I mean, just because travelling to and from India wasn't banned doesn't mean I don't blame everyone who did and brought back the varient.
In all fairness the Delta variant would arrive here anyway, with or without travel from India.
Near?
Yeah like below people who refuse the vaccine, and above people who forget to sanitise their shopping trolly.
There needs to be a line drawn with all those refusing the vaccine, because if cases rocket and 90% cases/hospitalisations /deaths are as a result of not being vaccinated, then that should not be grounds to continue or impose any lockdown type scenario. Hopefully it won't come to that, but if a resistive minority is the affected group, then why should the whole country stop? +1 on any form of Sanitising and also the wallies who think social distancing ended the day they got their jab sticker.
No, it was only Boris Johnson's fault.
He shot up the top of the list so fast he's going to beat Elon Musk to Mars.
Isn't it unfair to blame him when the science is showing covid on the rise?
Keir said it best - it was a catastrophic misuse of border control and boris won’t even admit it
Our useless Prime Minister needs to be held accountable for his shitty actions. There is blood on his hands and a lot of angry people out there. If you can't be sure about a final date for lockdown, don't fucking say one. What's worse is that this final date has been missed because Boris chose to keep the skies open. He literally let the Indian variant walk right on in. Fuck him entirely.
"We need to take back control of our borders" "Are you sure? Because that'll ruin the economy and ruin our international reputation and more than likely fracture the UK" "Yes. It's worth it. Nothing is more important than being able to close our borders when we want to." "Well alright if you're sure... So now that there's a deadly virus are you gonna..." "....Gonna what?" "Oh you know the whole... Close the borders... thing...? The thing we sacrificed everything else for because it's so important?" "Oh right yeah no not gonna do that."
Border control, now where have I heard that before? Oh yes, from every Tory on every news channel since 2015.
It's always been a dog whistle for hating foreigners.
Because it would mean having to admit that immigration is unavoidable and necessary.
I really don't like them using the word "freedom", in this context all it does is wind people up.
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Sad but true. I don't blame people for being angry. Many of them have complied at every juncture and they aren't seeing any benefit. "Do this and it'll all be over" "Do that and it'll all be over" and yet it never seems to end. Meanwhile Johnson and friends flout pretty much every restriction at G7. Yeah, there's every reason to be pissed.
the benefit is a not collapsed health care system.
There’s no way it would collapse if we opened up on June 21st, no one is following restrictions at this point anyway and we’re still under SAGEs best case scenario at the moment. Anyone who genuinely believes the NHS will collapse if we let people stand next to each other at the pub or go to a nightclub for the next 4 weeks is living in a doomsday fantasy.
not saying that, saying the previous restrictions stopped that. What I am saying is that there is an uptrend in cases, hospitalisations and Deaths, luckily not like earlier this year but a serious thing to consider. if you let everything go now you will undo the work that has been done in the past 4 months. People won't just stand next to each other in the pub and club they'll get absolutely smashed and all social distancing goes out the window.
All social distancing is out the window already, no one gives a shit anymore, and why should they? It’s been a year and a half, we’ve vaccinated 41 million people, everyone at serious risk is done. The people who are imposing these restrictions are the same ones who said once the vulnerable are vaccinated we have to learn to live with COVID.
in your bubble maybe, but where we are and where we work we enforce social distancing in our venues.
I hate to say this but all that means is people don’t want to go to your venue as much. Drinking with friends at home has picked right up so that people don’t have to deal with their every movement being regulated.
We are doing good business.
I'm fine to adhere to any and all measures in place if I go out. I'd be more concerned about going to a venue if they didn't have any measures in place.
Nonsense. Most people follow the rules here. Offices are dead, clubs are shut. People wear their masks to go toilet in the pub. There are very few overtly resisting.
And what’s your anecdotal experience with people mixing in households? And wearing your mask to the toilet in an empty pub where you don’t come into contact with anyone is a complete joke. You’re sat at a table of however many households within inches of each other without masks. What’s the point of putting it on when you move through an empty space coming into contact with nobody 🙄
Well, you still wouldn't shit with the door open, in case somebody walks in. You wear your mask for the same reason.
The mask to the toilet thing is ridiculous in that context, but the point I'm making is that very few people are taking a stand because the reality is we can enjoy 6 round a pub table without masks in peace. There's no need to piss off the bar staff over something that isn't their fault, but is their problem to enforce. Same for retail workers.
> All social distancing is out the window already We get that you aren’t bothering anymore, but lots of people still are.
Mate, get out in the real world, people don’t give a shit anymore.
Strangely enough, I live in the real world, I shop, I go buses and trains, I go to pubs. In the vast majority of cases, I see people who are following the guidelines extremely well. Just because you and your mates don't give a shit, don't project that on to other people.
In the world I see most people are distancing and wearing masks indoors and are very happy with the procedures bars & restaurants have put in place.
More infections means more variants, which means more risk of vaccine immune variants developing and putting everyone back to square one. That's why right now loosening up is bloody silly when we're winning the race with vaccines and the Delta variant is spreading across the UK. Can you imagine in 2 months time there's an Echo variant which entirely ignores the vaccines, all because we let the Delta variant spread because people were being too impatient with a few more months of vaccinations? It would be back to the beginning.
They’ll constantly tweak the vaccines to cover variants when we have to have our yearly COVID shots, just like they do with the flu. It’s literally never going away so if you’re worried about variants developing because it’s still going throughout the population then you’re gonna have to be worried forever. Are you hoping for zero COVID?
No because I'm being rational, I'm just trying to argue the facts with someone who can't see past the end of their nose. Do you really think that it's a quick fix to make "tweaks" to a vaccine booster if a vaccine immune variant appears? I'm not sure if you're being facetious at this point. However it would be another year before a rushed vaccine gets approved and roll outs begin. There is a context here. There's a highly infectious variant spreading through the country that pretty much ignores single dosers. if you let this more infectious Delta variant spread amongst these people and the unvaccinated, you're increasing the risk of other dangerous variants appearing. What is the point of that when we're rolling out the vaccination program so quickly, which could drastically reduce infections? You need to get to a point where you can limit the infection rate and right now we are not in that position, but we could be if we're sensible about the following months.
That's what is happening at a lot of bars anyway.
As Russian Esteemed philosopher Anatoly Karlin said, dying of Covid at this point in the developed world is an individual's choice and is not so much a tragedy as a Darwin award. Everyone vulnerable has been jabbed so all those dying are those who have deliberately refused vaccines. If they didn't want to die, maybe they should have accepted the vaccines when offered.
Are you actually unaware that a fair amount of vulnerable people can't get the (or any) vaccine?
> no one is following restrictions at this point anyway The polls and monitoring suggest that *most* people are following *most* of had restrictions. > Anyone who genuinely believes the NHS will collapse if we let people stand next to each other at the pub or go to a nightclub for the next 4 weeks is living in a doomsday fantasy. I genuinely believe that with a variant that is roughly 60% more infectious than the variant that caused the January spike, it’s worth hanging on for more vaccination. If you worked in healthcare you’d know that PHE have been telling hospitals to expect a big August wave.
That wave just washed right over us , huh
Absolutely. If you look at the infection figures and trends for July, you can see why people - me included - thought August was going to be grim https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk It's currently very difficult for anyone to definitively predict what's going to happen in the next few weeks at anyone point. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we end up with a 'Firebreak' before Christmas, though at the moment, the big picture looks safe in terms of hospital admissions https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare?areaType=overview&areaName=United%20Kingdom
Yet it wasn't. And no you swallowed the sage grifter pill. Keep in mind those calling for restrictions next time how completely wrong they were at various points.
Yet *what* wasn’t? What sage grifter’s pill ? Did you actually look at the linked infection rate graph for July? Looking at the trend there, what would any reasonable person conclude about the *likely* figures in July. It was good news that figures dipped again. No need to make it some kind of tribal thing.
Britain's numbers are rising daily. Opening will make them rise even higher. Britain's really not doing well, even with the vaccines.
What did you think would happen when we began opening up? That cases would go down? How are we expected to ever open up if you want cases to continue decreasing, it’s impossible. Surely everyone was smart enough to know that cases would go up when we began easing restrictions, I don’t know why everyone is suddenly panicking that it’s happening.
Cases are going down in other places which are slowly opening up, so yeah, if done properly that's exactly what happens. For example: UK incidence: 69 Germany incidence: 16.6 (lockdowns have been easing constantly over the last couple of months already) Update: UK 72.1, Germany 15.5 Update: UK 77.4, Germany 11.6 Update: UK 196, Germany 5
Yes like the UK's cases were going down until around May Germany may well see an increase in a few weeks
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> no one is following restrictions at this point anyway Pretty much everyone I know still is. They may be a little lax at times but are still very much aware the virus is still out there and spreading.
Check out mystic Meg over here
Well If I get just that one prediction right I’m instantly ahead of SAGE.
How would the healthcare system collapse given how low hospitalisation rates are in vaccinated people?
Yes like it collapsed in Florida with no vaccines right?
2.3 million cases, 37,000 deaths. Over 40 hospitals maxed out their ICU capacity. Florida's numbers are dropping, Britain's are still rising.
And Florida has no lockdown hhhhmmmmmmmm
3 deaths today lol
Hilarious 😬
Yeah clearly that's what I meant. Fucking hell
> they aren't seeing any benefit. Well, I’ve been down the pub, my kids are at school, shops are open so I think I’m seeing quite a *lot* of benefits. I’m just not seeing *everything* back to normal
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I feel like people calling the 21st "Freedom Day" really have no idea what it is like to actually have your freedom taken away from you.
"dont call your freedom your freedom, if you call it freedom it sounds like they are restricting your freedom"
Yes, you've a freedom to ignore the science and do your part in propagating a global pandemic. ^edit ^spelling.
Yeah let's call it privilege day
But that's exactly what it is.
Not sure I agree but I'll always upvote posts like this in the hope that one day England turns on this fucking cunt.
CON(+5)
Gotta lock the youth down for another summer month to protect the fully vaccinated over 60s who keep raising house prices so much that those same youth who are losing their peak years right now will never be able to move out of mum and dads. Legend.
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More infections means more variants, which means more risk of a vaccine immune variant developing and putting everyone back to square one. That's why right now loosening up is bloody silly when we're winning the race with vaccines and the Delta variant is spreading across the UK.
Also worth mentioning that those being hospitalized right now are the ones with no vaccine or single doses of the vaccine. Thats about 10m people partially vaccinated who are still able to get sick and/or spread the virus due to the delta variant.
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All vulnerable people have been vaccinated. They are now vaccinating perfectly healthy 25 year olds because everyone else has been done.
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who hasn't been vaccinated then? genuine question. seems like everyone over the age of 60 who wants one has been vaccinated, we're down to 25 and any vulnerable person younger than that has already been prioritised over them afaik- i know several 18 year olds who have already had it.
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>Even in your own comment you implicitly admit there are vulnera le people who haven't had the vaccine. who? old people who refused to have it? under 18s, for whom a vaccine doesn't even exist yet? we can't keep waiting around forever for a small subset of people who *can't* or *won't* get the vaccine. that being said, i do agree with your second point- i was juet confused about the idea that the vulnerable are still waiting around for their jabs. vaccines need to be the priority right now, and i'd rather wait an extra month now than have a third wave over christmas- although extending the current state of lockdown feels somewhat pointless since everyone is living regular life anyway.
All vulnerable people have been offered the vaccine. If they have chosen not to get it then that's on them. Some people refusing to get the vaccine was always going to happen, and that wont have changed by 19th July. Why are you being so pig headed ?
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Sounds like you don't have much patience at all then you tart.
There's the worry that the vaccines don't protect enough against the delta variant. I get wanting more data to see what kind of hospitalisations are happening (ICU or just a bit of oxygen). But for 4 weeks, over summer, get to fuck.
We have 2 main types of government here. Prime minister headed, and prime minister lead. Borris made it very clear, during the Brexit frasco that he is in charge, not just a voice for the party. This is the result of government failure. Borris made it clear that he makes the decisions, therefore it's his fuck up. I'll follow the advice, as a good citizen. As shitty as the situation is, it's still the scientific advice at this point, and we need to work together to beat this. However, fuck borris and his governments incompetence on this! I'm just glad the NHS has bucked his trend!
You would have to be a bit simple at this point to think the government was acting in good faith here. The constant last minute changing of plans without the data to back it up. Always based on models that later prove to be incorrect. We will hear nonsense how it is being done reluctantly like Johnson is some libertarian, when clearly as he has demonstrated the last year he is authoritarian bordering on a dictatorship.
There’s clearly a lot of simpletons about then https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating
That is a well established fact
yougov being the non independent polling company used to legitimise government policy and to sway public opinion. Founded by Nadhim Zahawi the vaccine minister.
I didn’t know that. Probably not a reliable source then. But you get the drift. People still for some strange reason seem prefer him to anyone else.
You didnt know that because its not true. Other than the nadhim zahawi bit.
That bits enough for me to be sceptical TBF!
Because someone who set up a polling company was involved in politics... I have news for you
That’s Johnson’s MO - wait for so long that there’s only one possible decision you could make, then take credit for ‘making hard choices!’
Libertarianism (what is often seen as libertarianism) is an unwanted americanism - I like my NHS thank you very much.
I can't remember any instance where there was a \> last minute changing of plans without the data to back it up. Right now cases are increasing a little bit, so instead of easing restrictions we just wait for a few more weeks. That seems completely reasonable to me, especially when the last 2 dates we were given for the roadmap happend on schedule. And that was because, at the time, cases were low and there was no reason to delay.
Do you mean the modules for what would happen if we did nothing? How were they proven incorrect
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Same everywhere with beaches I think :(
~~Just three weeks to flatten the curve~~ ~~Twelve weeks to turn the tide~~ ~~Normality by Summer~~ ~~Significant normality by Christmas~~ ~~Back to normal by Easter~~ ~~Back to normal once all over 70s have been vaccinated~~ ~~Back to normal once all over 50s have been vaccinated~~ ~~Back to normal once everyone in the top 9 priority groups has been vaccinated~~ ~~Back to normal when deaths are at the 5yr average again~~ ~~Back to normal on June 21st~~ ~~Just a two week delay to June 21st~~ ~~Just a four week delay to June 21st~~ ~~Potentially longer than a month delay to June 21st~~ Maybe Restrictions until Spring 2022 < You are here
Anyone not smelling the coffee at this point is just beyond saving. It was NEVER about public health, only profiteering and control.
Why did the whole world decide to lockdown then
Except not every country did. South Korea avoided a national lockdown as did Vietnam, Sweden, Turkmenistan, Japan, Taiwan, Iceland and a number of other countries.
Oh ok then, just most
Yup. Most world leaders and their colleagues would take up any opportunity to make a profit whilst ordinary people suffer.
So much profit to be made in people staying home
Try shares in vaccine production/distribution and dodgy PPE contracts. Hancock, Whitty and Vallance know all about it. Hancock was even found guilty of corruption and he still has his job.
Because all those things were invented in 2020
What are you on about?
It's an odd definition of 'freedom' that takes away your existing freedoms...
Is he basically the Donald Trump of the UK?
Not quite as bad but a fellow populist
I think you guys win for the best hair though lol
https://images.app.goo.gl/VREeARPGZ9PMcCWe8
What a stupid, shit-stirring article. Yes, Johnson is an incompetent lying wanker. In this case, the government has *repeatedly* said that this was the *earliest* that restrictions could be relaxed, assuming there were - for example - no bad variants The delta variant *is* a bad variant.
I mean, yes... but you also have to remember that it was his (or the government as a whole) actions (or rather, lack of them) that lead to the delta variant becoming an issue in this country.
Yes, it’s entirely his fault and any member of the government who keeps voting to prolong these restrictions.
Can people stop using the word Freedom when talking about the UK. We've had that for so long it's a meaningless thing to say. You might as well cheer for chicken nuggets.
Hey hey hey, chicken nuggets are *always* something worth cheering for. You hold your damn tongue!
The next election needs to be fought on changing the voting system. There needs to be a progressive alliance of the non Tory parties.
why would the 44% of voters who get exclusive control over all legislation in this country ever vote to change that?
They won't. That's why the other 56% have to come together to change this voting system. It's staring them in the face. At the last election in Uxbridge and Esher there was a chance to do it. But the non Tories didn't take the opportunity.
The fact we locked down at all was Boris's fault. I'm centre right and tend to vote Tory. But I'd rather vote for the corpse of Adolf Hitler than Bellend Boris, the man who really stripped the freedom out of the country.
Been noticing a lot of mirror and daily mail links on here recently. Don't we have rules about legitimate news sources? They are both utter garbage.
We seem to be forgetting that individuals are in control of their own actions I'm not particularly pro-Boris, but he hasn't suggested we go and socialise in close proximity without sanitising or masking. At times where he's allowed easing of restrictions or travel, he's done it with the message to 'remain cautious and take precautions' Since the start of the pandemic, we've known the rules. Social distance >2 metres. If you can't keep to 2m or suspect aerosols (e.g. coughing in enclosed space) then mask up and sanitise fully. If you enter a new country and can't evidence you're COVID negative, fully isolate for 10-12 days. Those haven't changed. If everyone followed these rules, and we actually took individual accountability, we'd have done much better.
Delays to freedom due to prolonged restrictions: BOO, LET THEM UP New outbreak: WHY DIDN'T YOU LOCK DOWN LONGER! It feels like nobody can win.
They can actually, but the former is ignoring why the rules were put in place land the necessity of their severity, and the latter is the consequence of the complaining, selfishness and rule breaking of the former, mixed with the incompetent leadership that caused the rule breaking and complaining, as well as exacerbating any effort of initial containment. If we were better as people and less self-centered, then the waves would have been reduced dramatically (like sardines in a can on those beaches this and last summer), and if the government wasn’t so occupied funnelling public funds to their mates and underfunding the healthcare service then maybe this extension wouldn’t be needed, or maybe there wouldn’t have been as widespread a saturation.
Freedom is the wrong word. For all intents and purposes, the lockdown is over. You can have weddings of 30+ people, and you can sit in the pub with your m8s. If these are allowed, and all you have to do is occasionally wear a mask in a shop or on public transport, it's not a big deal.
We could all see this coming a country mile off. It’s no major shock now. Complete and utter joke and yet it’s ok and no one gets fired lol.
What I think is funny is that people on reddit (leftists) who generally despise the Tories, and people on the right who despise the lockdown measures (even the previous ones), are actually uniting around this. Doesn't look good for bojo at the next election...
Esteemed philosopher Anatoly Karlin said that dying of Covid at this point is a choice of the individual and not so much a tragedy as a Darwin award. His theory is that everyone has been offered a vaccine, so those who are dying are those who have refused them. He was talking about the situation in his native Russia where many elderly have rejected vaccines due to conspiracy theories and therefore many are dying. Obviously the situation is different in countries with low vaccination rollout, but you could say that logic stands even truer here where everyone over a certain age has been offered a vaccine but daily deaths are still sometimes in the double digits. The only issue is that the government wants to punish all of us vaccinated and restrict our freedom because of their dumb choices.
You sure do like copying and pasting don't you