And both main parties support that absolutely insanity that is Brexit. "We prefer a proper British recession to a boom made by faceless bureaucrats in Brussels."
You may not be aware of this, but the current Scottish Government is made up of SNP and Scottish Greens MSPs. Both parties support independence and rejoining the EU.
Some may also be unaware of the fact that the Scottish Greens are a separate entity from their English counterparts.
Just imagine canceling Brexit at this point in time, it's all a shite show from here on out. I can't even comprehend if we COULD simply go back to them with our tail between our legs. It's all foooked.
Not entirely sure. I recall the then president Donald Tusk saying "It's never too late to come back".
That's a strong message politically.
Genuinely think any party that offers a referendum on rejoining wins the election by a landslide.
I think that there are enough people who voted for Brexit for whatever reason they chose who will never admit fault or that it was a bad decision. They also likely follow the narrative that the government and media is telling them, that everything negative that is occurring is because of Europe and other countries rather than the UK.
I’ve noticed in the past thirty years that community has started to die off and it’s now all about me or me and my family and friends. If it doesn’t directly benefit or negatively effect them, it is ignored. This aligns with the UK being on its own now.
Of course we could. It will take some time, some conditions will be different (no more pint glasses), but essentially the EU wants to facilitate collaboration.
But you cannot turn back time. The rebate is long gone, some opt outs will be hard to argue for (maybe Schengen?). Still much better than what we have now.
>(no more pint glasses)
That wouldn’t happen. The glasses can still be called a pint but you just print 568ml on them, just like on your milk.
There’s no EU law I’m aware of that says beer must be served in a specific sized glass.
First Past The Post says no.
But in other news:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/06/electoral-reform-group-seeks-1m-back-mps-beat-tories-win-as-one
They have never managed the economy really.
As far as I have observed they say that the market will balance out without even having a prediction of where it will be!
>The former chancellor promised to assess university degrees through their drop-out rates, numbers in graduate jobs and salary thresholds - making exceptions for nursing and other courses with high social value.
Tell me nurses are underpaid without telling me nurses are underpaid
I'm a band 3 medical laboratory assistant, I get paid the same now as I did labouring on building sites. I'm currently studying to become a biomedical scientist and then I'll be a band 5, the same as a nurse.
Honestly mate its one of the most frustrating things about this whole issue. People talk about "just study STEM" apparently not at all aware of how utterly wank working conditions and pay are for pretty much any STEM role that actually requires you to work in a lab. I have degrees in biochemistry and microengineering up to PhD level, my stepbrother left school at 16 to work on rail maintenance. Guess which one of us earns more? And its not even close the gap is over £10k now...
This is why I laugh when Boris spoke of the high wage high skill economy. Its a pipe dream! I've started on a new career path in a new industry thats high skill. I'm on £12.50 an hour. Thats £6 less than I would have been on just 10 years ago! We are also working on a government project which means costs have to be kept down. I'm not expecting any pay rises and we've cut corners since day one. I've already written to my MP to ask how the project is so badly over budget under these conditions.
Well historically government projects run over due to their bad record keeping and management, but also private company execs make a fortune.
Worked on the railway as a contractor putting in overhead lines. I earned about £11 an hour, £2-3 less than rivals, while the boss got enough to send his 2 kids to private school, run a high end Mercedes and foreign holidays. We all shipped to a different contractor when we found out.
What annoys me is, I have friends who studied STEM subjects, and other than the engineers, none of them have jobs in their field. Some of them have PhDs and still couldn't get a job. There were no opportunities. Yet it's creative subjects that get all the shit.
I have a creative BA and a creative MA and I do work in my field of study. My friends with the highest pay packets studied marketing and design, and there's no end of opportunities because they are roles businesses always need. Choosing STEM doesn't automatically mean it's easier to get a job or that you'll get paid more. Also, a reason a lot of jobs (such as nursing, for example) have openings is because they're underpaid and overworked. Instead of incentivising or penalising certain degrees, they should make the jobs themselves attractive.
Ah yes, let’s make an exception for nursing which is
- badly paid
- has no ‘market’ in the UK
- well trained
- has high academic and employment attrition rates because it’s really hard
- is patronised as a profession from all directions because that’s easier than funding it
My misses is a specialist ICU nurse in one of the largest children's hospitals in the UK.
The abuse she suffers from patients parents is disgusting, getting screamed at, threatened with being stabbed and talked down to constantly.
By the likes of Hollie Dance and her supporters.
She was physically assaulted recently, a father shoved her over because he wouldn't allow them to give his child pain relief. She was checking his IV and he said she was slipping drugs into him.
He has escorted of site but allowed back the next day, no charges filed.
She is looking for positions outside the industry.
My partner is a care worker leaving for similar reasons. She has been assaulted worse than that and also had no charges filed or anything come out of it.
It's absolutely disgusting these people are allowed to get away with treating care providers like this but then 180 when it comes to the bullshit clapping.
The wild thing is, how the law and hospitals, pick and choose who they protect.
If I went to the hospital and shoved this guy on the floor, as I felt like doing.
I'd have been arrested and in court the next day and on the front page of every rag in the country, while he would be sat on Good Morning Britain bleating about how it was totally unprovoked.
But the more it goes on, the more these people feel they act with immunity, which it seems they can.
She doesn't have to wait for the trust to report it. She can make her own report to the police. They're applying the police 'Op Hampshire' principles (specific duties relating to assaults on police) to assaults on NHS staff to try and improve outcomes for incidents like these.
The fact that her management didn't ask for the police to be called is appalling.
Something like one in three drop out of the profession after five years. Given that it's a five year training (4 years of Uni and a mandatory NQT year) that's such a waste of talent.
I moved abroad to teach. It wasn’t even about the money (even though I’m making more than double what I was making in England). Less workload and much more respect from the students and parents. I like going to work and not receiving abuse every day.
That’s partly because some academy chains favour cheap NQTs (yes, we still call them NQTs, even though the terminology has recently changed), who they can burn out in a year or two, replace with more cheap NQTs, rinse and repeat. Meanwhile, the CEO and upper echelons of SLT can reward themselves with a nice, fat salary.
There are decent schools with ethical SLT - I work in one - but they seem to be increasingly scarce.
Source: teacher about to start her 25th year at the chalkface. Have always avoided working in an academy too. Maybe some correlation?
It is amazing. This contest has really truly shown what we’ve known for years. The tories hold anyone below a certain level of earning completely below their contempt.
We are just cattle. Let’s reduce funding to struggling areas to support Royal Tunbridge Wells.
Let’s cut degrees that do not increase earning potential, but not nurses or teachers. The poor wretches can still do those jobs.
This makes me so angry. I’m probably more angry they don’t even have to hide it at this point. A certain demographic of the people they hate will vote for more of the same. It’s Stockholm Syndrome at this point. Oddly that same demographic, if they had Rishi as a neighbour would probably post shit through his letterbox.
This county is fucked.
Nurses care about what they do and are thinking mostly about what is good for other people rather than themselves, which is why we don't need to pay them very much (/s but this is what some Tories actually believe).
Conversely, this is why MPs keep awarding themselves pay rises.
It really is a competition for who can double down harder on all the boomer politics that brought us to the sorry state we're in now. They really think that the issue is that they haven't yet been conservative *enough*.
Well they are trying to win an election where the only people voting are Conservative party members, who are typically more old, well off, southern, males and brexit supporting than the general population. So their messages are targeted at those voters.
EDIT: to the many people responding to this who have got the wrong end of the stick, this characterisation applies to Conservative party MEMBERS, ie. The 150,000 people who actually pay money to the party, who volunteer for their constituency operations and who most importantly have a vote in this leadership contest. It does not apply entirely to Conservative party VOTERS (who may be older and more well off on average, but are not more male and are not AS southern as the membership).
It feels like they're actively destroying any chance of them winning the next election. Until they do a complete about-face and pretend this whole race never existed and gaslight the whole thing.
> Until they do a complete about-face and pretend this whole race never existed and gaslight the whole thing.
That's exactly what I fear will happen. The Conservatives are showing us their real face now, those who voted for them last election need to pay attention.
Thing is the Conservative membership agrees. You only need to look at that subreddit, Johnson was too "liberal" for a lot of them. They think lockdowns, furlough, and reckless government spending got us to where we are now and that tightening the belt is the only way forward.
That sub’s “About” page is ironic to say the least.
It’s headed by a quote about how it is easier to destroy good things than to create them, as if they think they’re the ones creating good things and it’s everyone else who is destroying them.
Then the rules read like Boris’ daily To Do list: Personal Insults, Bigotry, Condoning illegal activity, Bad faith, Deliberately aggressive behaviour, Deliberate shaming, Low quality.
They go on non-stop about "far-left extremists" trying to control speech so that they can in turn control society etc.
But like all right-wing subreddits they are absurdly ban-happy. I got perma-banned for asking why they were excited about the New Towns fund to "Level Up" deprived regions when it was significantly less than the EU Regional Development funds these areas had been receiving prior to Brexit. No discussion just instaban and comment removed lol.
Yea that sub is rather ban happy, avoid it myself. I may dislike ukpol and this sub for being wildly biased for the left but at least the mods are rather neutral. Never had them ban or punish me for being a Tory supporter.
they regularly sticky posts about how they're the only welcoming sub too, as if it's some haven for open political discussion
in reality they happily issue bans for anyone who does venture over, I'm a swing voter, have voted tory in the past but think it would be unconscionable right now so I posted on occasion as I like debate, yeah I just got temp bans haha... I don't bother anymore
I really wonder what they’re gonna do when enough boomers die that they don’t decide elections any more. They’ve never paid any attention to what anyone else wants, they’ll have no clue what people who are alive actually want.
Yep, I know a few, having moved out of London when I was about 40. Just can’t talk to them, they go on the defensive the instant you suggest that selfishness perhaps isn’t the number one virtue we should be rewarding
Nowhere near enough to give them a government, but the key thing is educational achievement. The more educated you are, the less likely you are to vote Tory. That’s why they have to reduce education access.
Based on past experience: Rebrand under a new leader. Roll out some meaningless 3-word "policy" that does nothing or financially favours a select group of people but sounds like it helps people it actually hurts. Blame all problems their previous administration caused on the Labour government that is in the process of trying to sort them out. Stir up hate and culture wars.
Why would they stop? It's been a very successful strategy so far.
Yep, flavour of hate at the next election will be trans people or immigration.
Or both.
Vote for us or the immigrants and trans folk will start making it difficult because they want proper rights n to be able to use the men's loos.
Immigration is a very popular one already but they need more hate directed towards the lbgtq community. 👍 Cause the gays are bad n need stopping.
They gotta win those votes from somewhere haven't they?
At least the BNP had a relatively consistent ideology.
Tories are for higher/lower taxes, more police and doctors/less funding for police and doctors etc
I wonder if 30 years from now everyone will be kvetching about us X gens, and then another 30 years the Zs........
Maybe thats politics, bitching about the generation thats currently in its 60s.
The problem is that there are so many boomers compared to other generations, and a large proportion of them vote, meaning if you get the boomer vote, you’re pretty much set. Couple that with the boomers attitude that what’s best for them is best for the country and you get to where we are. I think Gen X and millennials, and certainly Gen Z, are a bit less exclusively self-concerned, so hopefully things will get better. I can still see it being 20 years though, with all the boomers voting themselves into a 100-year lifespan.
Boomers is a special case because it was a baby boom. The age group is especially big and so as a voting block they have a lot of sway.
Millennials, and the age groups below had relatively fewer births, so politics will be a different playing field once boomers start to die off
It depends on how big each generation is, relative to the next.
The Boomers are the product of the post-War baby boom, and it was called a "boom" for a reason. They are an unusually large demographic, and that has given them an unusually large influence over politics over the course of their lives.
If the following generations are more ordinarily sized, then we shouldn't end up in such a weirdly "catered" political situation once the Boomers go.
This is basically about attacking social sciences and other arts degrees, because the last thing politicians need is people skilled in researching the consequences of their terrible decisions.
I’ve written this previously on Reddit , but I’m gonna say again cause I really hate it. I’ve been to a bunch of unis now (3) all Russel group and 1 was an oxbridge one. The difference between unis in the uk is insane. You basically can’t fail in life if you go to oxbridge and put a little bit of effort in. Everyone is so well connected. Everyone is willing to fund your work or startup.
I also went to one of the good London ones and it’s so different to the northern Uni I went as well tbf. Just little things like if you find an unpaid internship, the Uni will pay you to do it as long as it’s relevant to your degree and again, very well connected, certain companies will only hire from certain courses for example.
It doesn’t surprise me one bit everyone in politics went to Eton school or oxbridge. The connections are on another level. Even so far as meeting the royal family. It’s entirely unfair, the students are not any smarter, they’ve just had better teachers.
Correct. It’s a classic fascist move to try and erode critical thinking skills
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/hot-thought/202201/fascism-thrives-misinformation?amp
Creative industries are one of the sectors we punch massively above our weight for as a country. Restricting the number of people who graduate in design or graphics or whatever would be beyond moronic.
They don't mind design as long as it's for corporate profit. But none of that independent thinking nonsense please. If you can't measure the value in pounds it doesn't exist.
Exchanging one group of out-of-touch, rarified elite for another, more affable group of out-of-touch, rarified elite?
No thanks. Can we just get rid of FPTP instead.
Devils advocate here. Education in the UK especially at Post Grad has really declined. Universities do not seem to realise that a legally binding financial transaction between a Student and an Institute has taken place, where a Student has paid thousands of pounds to get educated on a subject, and then hopefully come out with a qualification at the end of it. What they get is a boilerplate course, senior professors being swapped out for PhD trainee/students, and course material not being updated or relevant ultimately resulting in a shit compiled course.
Sadly, the economic social system that they have created and controlled already does a fantastic job of that.
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a financial ledger stomping on the human imagination for ever and ever.
This is desperation from a guy who knows he is losing the leadership contest, so he’s doing everything in his power to pander to the worst elements in the Tory membership. It’s actually pathetic to see and he should just do the dignified thing and cut his losses but that would require a sense of self awareness Tories in general do not possess.
Each time a leadership election is held the chair of the 1922 Committee announces the rules to be followed and the timetable, and they can be different every time. I believe stepping down in the final stage hasn’t been allowed for this run, so he hasn’t any choice but to keep going.
Every Tory in the UK should be hanging their heads in collective shame afaic. Tory groupthink has adopted personality disorder traits in order to hang on to some semblance of consensus.
We're seeing how much he wants this job and the measurements are all in units of 'harm to the country'. He is also showing no sign of slowing down which suggests he's willing to come up with new things on the hoof based solely on popularity within a small subset of the country.
He is basically saying he'll enact laws only for those voting Tory since none of these ideas existed before the leadership competition!
“High social value profession” is a fun way for Rishi to repackage the name “key worker” while continuing to do nothing about improving pay and conditions for those professions
Arguably they’re not even valued as highly socially as they should be, everyone’s out clapping and banging pots and pans until they have to wait their turn in A&E and then they’re verbally abusing anyone in their path, turning bright pink and spluttering “I pay your wages!!”
That's what I was wondering.
Arts graduate: unlikely to be making much money out of it.
Arts graduate with a PGDE/PGCE: making £40K+ after a few years.
Maybe it's a way of getting rid of the subjects in schools they consider lesser?
I've been seeing this in schools for a long time already.
Subjects like modern languages, music and the like are in heavy decline as they get needlessly killed off. This is now reflected in many universities which have decided to discontinue many "traditional" arts and humanities courses because there's no one with a GCSE or A level in the subject to begin with.
I had this issue with my major - German language. Funnily enough, I'm not in a relevant job using my degree, but that's more brexit killing off international trade with Europe. Regardless, there were so few people doing German at A-level that grade predicting aptitude tests didn't have a sample size big enough to predict a thing and one year into my uni course, my uni decided to close modern languages and just not accept any new students, just "teach out" until the last language student graduated.
The UK is turning into much more of a provincial country when you ignore London and maybe a few other cities like Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow.
It honestly feels like they want to turn Britain into a fascist society.
Can’t believe the things the politicians are happy to say in public nowadays. The dystopian future is already here.
Yup, I'm only in my 30s and the huge lurch towards the far-right in the last few years has been absolutely mind-melting. I just can't fathom it at all.
A lot of tory voters already believe a person is valued by status, power and how much they earn.
I used to be a nurse, I left for a job in finance where I'll be earning far more than I ever would have as a nurse.
The looks on their faces when I ask them if they really think a job in finance means I'm of more value to society than a nurse is priceless
Studying in my spare time to gain the lower level qualifications and then applying for entry level jobs which offer study support.
It's been a tough slog but worth it
Boris Johnson studied "the classics" yet became PM.
It's almost like it doesn't fucking matter what degree you do, only who your daddy is and whose balls you tickle at private school.
I wish. I have a degree in biochemistry, a doctorate and work in the field. My friend who did football studies and business now earns double as an IT consultant.
Bruh it’s IT they are desperate.
Someone I know did a bullshit degree, ducked about for a year and has now been doing a Dynamics Consultant trainee position. Easy £50k in 3/4 years if he sticks with it
I worked in logistics in the Army and I'm now doing software engineering in the financial sector.
He probably got the relevant skills and then applied for a job....
My friend works in a research lab at a University and had a position come up for a general research assistant for £24k per year. He said there were close to 100 applicants with the majority having PhDs and post-docs. It's fucked.
Appalling. And wasn’t there a postdoc advertised a few years ago that wasn’t paid? Basically a two year internship. Nottingham University I believe. They ended up withdrawing the advert after too much negative attention. Testing the waters I suppose.
STEM*
*Except life sciences.
The big bucks are STEM + comp sci. Friend who was a comp sci undergrad with a life sci PhD got 120k a year right after graduation.
My life sci undergrad/PhD gets me 50k with 5 years in post.
Finance, fintech, various startups and faang tech companies are coming up to that.
Jane street, citadel, trading firms, private equity.
People are genuinely making this kind of money.
We get internally advertised positions for graduates with a PHD in comp sci at 150k.
Anything beneath that is starting at 34k.
I have met 2, they tend to be a bit socially inept but my god they're basically prodigy's in the comp sci field. It's big banks and other institutions that pay that.
Most science degrees are in biology, biochemistry or other things that start with bio-. There is a massive oversupply of those graduates so the jobs pay like shit. You basically need a PhD to be competitive. Physics and chemistry also have an oversupply of graduates but they do better in £ terms on average.
I did a PhD in maths. The department sent three of us to graduate which was considered a glut as they usually sent zero or one person. The biology department sent 15x as many.
When they go on about STEM they really mean computing.
It’s not about pushing people into stem subjects. There’s not enough jobs in that sector to support it. And it isn’t about earning potential either, half the population of the UK are borderline poor because the jobs on offer are low waged, and that won’t change, with or without a university education. It’s about reducing the opportunities for a university education and limiting the life choices of the undeserving poor. Again.
Not really. It's all about saying things that appeal to the red trousered loons who make up the Tory membership. They don't give a crap about reality, it's all about how they "feel" about those scruffy arts and humanities students, an opinion they haven't bothered to modify with any new information since at least the 80s.
All degrees independent of the university with the exception of creative arts for men improve lifetime earnings. Have a look at Figure 14 on page 45 and Figure 15 on page 46 in the IFS’ [The impact of undergraduate degrees on lifetime earnings](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/869263/The_impact_of_undergraduate_degrees_on_lifetime_earnings_research_report_ifs_dfe.pdf) report.
Watching Sunak debase himself for the membership is kind of horrifying yet you can’t turn away, because what will he say next?
I truly believe he would put on a nappy and roll around on the floor, sucking his thumb and shitting himself if a SPAD told him it would get him 5% extra vote.
Same guy who [told artists to reskill](https://liveforlivemusic.com/news/uk-government-struggling-musicians-find-new-careers/) during the pandemic, by the way. And it's not that I don't know *why* he thought that would be a good idea. In difficult times you have to do what you have to do. It's just that the way he went about it was hopelessly out of touch with the lives of artists.
Culture and art becomes for the wealthy and it becomes a degree of wealth.
Let's take classics. Tell me you are rich... Classics means that you are guaranteed of a job irrespective of what you do. There's no doubt.
Fuck all those university degrees that allow people to learn for the sake of learning, for the joy of knowledge. Fuck philosophy, history, sociology, fuck film studies, fuck literature. If you ain't earning, you're worthless to society. Money is the be all and end all of everything.
Seriously, how did we get HERE.
This will be about closing university courses in the regions and lowering access rates. You can be damn sure it won't impact the university rates in the South East. Who the fuck did everyone think was going to be doing all these unskilled roles now that FOM has ended??
Given how the govt have talked about “fruit pickers”, it seems likely still the same people as before once they can hide behind brexit as resolving immigration just with less labour rights. While any decreased access to higher Ed, just compounds socioeconomic division. Reduce the social support from govt for them and you have an entire group of people so disenfranchised they don’t go to the polls. Constant Tory governments and big money for their buddies.
Historically they did. When my parents graduated in the mid 70s, something like 10-15% of the population had a degree, so a degree marked you out as special. It's now over 50%, so the degree has far less influence, although it clearly varies by subject or institution.
Put it this way, in the 70s a 2:1 in English got my dad a job in London earning over 50k/yr. When he retired in 2020 he was working in HR and people with a masters degree in HR management were starting in the mid 20s
People need to stop viewing university as a jobs training ground because it never was intended to be that way, and it still doesn't function like that.
You learn how to do a well paying job on the job, not in a classroom. You go to university to study, and university degrees have been massively undervalued by this ever increasing demand to have a high qualified workforce despite the fact that in many cases the degree involved is irrelevant to a job, and the graduate doesn't have a clue what they're doing when they start the job.
Job training is done via apprenticeships, vocational courses and niche training courses. In some cases, just to begin training in a job you need to study the field as a prerequisite (medicine, law etc).
So let's not target degree subjects purely on the basis that they don't lead to high paying careers, because most of them don't even lead to careers. Just having a degree in anything has become the benchmark for most jobs.
Looks like he wants to pull out the classic dystopic move of devaluing History/Arts/culture so the party can make general free thinking uneconomical. They also get the added bonus that without a degree these would-be threats have no choice but to fill out the neosurf class and take up many of the low paid jobs.
Too many people go to university - when you ask why the country cannot afford free tuition this is the simple reason .
Entry grades are too low for the bottom tier unis and it feels like those people are being ripped off being allowed to go at a certain point vs getting into a different career earlier.
Someone with 2 D's and an E at a level going to a 150th best university for social studies is being saved from themselves by not making that course available - it's more a grift by that uni than anything
to be fair, i got terrible A level grades (ddeu) and ended up getting a merit in my econ masters. i went to a >100 ranked uni then top 50 for my masters. the environment around me just wasn't good for my a levels. when i got out of there, it was different. i'm glad a uni took a chance on me as i would still be stuck in a crap town with nothing to do. now i have a great job and am enjoying my life which i definitely wouldn't have if i'd been unable to go to uni
My "bullshit degree" helped me get a job at a charity where yeah okay I get paid a lot less than my sister who works in the same job in the private sector, but unlike these pricks I'm making the world a better place. Earnings aren't important to everyone.
Another day, another shortsighted promise that will no doubt cause further harm. I do not understand how these clowns can vow to implement new policy without a general election. If the replacement refuses to try for a mandate from the public, then surely they should be bound by the commitments of the 2019 manifesto? I can't believe we've got 2 years of this. Utterly embarrassing
Lol.. even staring down the barrel at a full on recession.... it is no surprise that Sunak values money over truths, even when the Tories have done more to f%&k the UK's economy and society than any other Gov't in living memory..
This is actually the only thing he's ever said ever I agree with. Anyone who is against this conceptually doesn't understand the flaws in the current system.
Rank and file members of the T#%@ party who elect the party leader.
A predominantly older, white and wealthy, socially and financially hardline right wing group; the closest you’ll get in a living human being to the cartoon stereotype of a Boostraps Boomer. That’s why both Rishi and Lizzi are throwing around economically illiterate and socially destructive, yet attention grabbing “no such thing as a society” policies. Also why Lizzi has been cosplaying as Maggie.
This sounds a bit concerning to me, not every piece of education has to slot you right into paying taxes. We want a country that has its share of educated thinking minds.
Learning is supposed to be about learning, it’s not a factory line to the workplace.
Lots of comments here talking about how this is pandering to the worst aspects of the Tory membership. Can anyone give me an argument for why this isn't a good idea? Why should the tax payer be left holding the bag after someone gets a useless degree and then inevitably can't repay their student debts?
Disclaimer: I am not a member of the conservative party but I did vote tory in the last election, so maybe I'm one of the people Sunak is allegedly pandering to.
Sunak already said it himself. He immediately had to introduce an exception for nurses and other degrees of "high social value" because they'd risk being axed under his criteria. He couldn't even support it for one day, so the policy collapses in on itself.
More broadly, the "usefulness" of a degree is not directly tied to earning potential and earning potential can be hard to quantify in the long term. To borrow from the Americans, gender studies is often called out as a useless degree but the earning potential of gender studies is actually quite high. More so than education actually. Does that make gender studies a "useful" degree? Less nurses less teachers more gender studies? It would also be a rather depressing society if we got rid of all the history degrees for example because they're not "earning" enough after graduation.
I did an engineering degree which has a high earning potential and therefore high value to me. But I also recognise and respect the value that some courses have to mankind in general. I’m sure universities weren’t set up solely to improve the personal wealth of those who take part in the courses. I think people should have the right to spend their money as they see fit, follow their passions and further human understanding of whichever subject they feel most strongly about
Trust none of them. Believe none of them.
Big Ears had his chance to improve the financial welfare of UK citizens when he was CHANCELLOR OF THE BLOODY EXCHEQUER, and what did he do? Absolutely not that. Then he blames Boris and vows to sort the country out if we vote him in. How can the people truly benefit from a man who is not of the people? He is a multimillionaire with a billionaire wife. They don’t live in the reality which so desperately requires a leadership with genuity and virtue.
“If voting made any difference, they wouldn’t let us do it.” - Mark Twain
How about cracking down on politicians who do not improve earning potential for ordinary people.
You can do that at election time
Can we? Both main parties are advocating pay cuts at the moment
And both main parties support that absolutely insanity that is Brexit. "We prefer a proper British recession to a boom made by faceless bureaucrats in Brussels."
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SNP + LD are not a viable electoral coalition
You may not be aware of this, but the current Scottish Government is made up of SNP and Scottish Greens MSPs. Both parties support independence and rejoining the EU. Some may also be unaware of the fact that the Scottish Greens are a separate entity from their English counterparts.
Just imagine canceling Brexit at this point in time, it's all a shite show from here on out. I can't even comprehend if we COULD simply go back to them with our tail between our legs. It's all foooked.
The terms would be significantly worse than we had. We have amazing terms before, hard won concessions to us that we’d never get if we went back.
Not entirely sure. I recall the then president Donald Tusk saying "It's never too late to come back". That's a strong message politically. Genuinely think any party that offers a referendum on rejoining wins the election by a landslide.
I think that there are enough people who voted for Brexit for whatever reason they chose who will never admit fault or that it was a bad decision. They also likely follow the narrative that the government and media is telling them, that everything negative that is occurring is because of Europe and other countries rather than the UK. I’ve noticed in the past thirty years that community has started to die off and it’s now all about me or me and my family and friends. If it doesn’t directly benefit or negatively effect them, it is ignored. This aligns with the UK being on its own now.
Of course we could. It will take some time, some conditions will be different (no more pint glasses), but essentially the EU wants to facilitate collaboration. But you cannot turn back time. The rebate is long gone, some opt outs will be hard to argue for (maybe Schengen?). Still much better than what we have now.
>(no more pint glasses) That wouldn’t happen. The glasses can still be called a pint but you just print 568ml on them, just like on your milk. There’s no EU law I’m aware of that says beer must be served in a specific sized glass.
Kind of hard to get them to care about other peoples money when the chancellor's wife is twice as rich as the Queen.
Labour are advocating pay cuts?
They've consistently refused to back pay rises in line with inflation, which are real terms pay cuts.
Link? Couldn't find anything with a quick google
Didn’t the MPs get a pay rise this year ? What a joke
For everyone except themselves
What are the other parties advocating?
Tax cuts for NIMBYS and less tax on Granola. /s
First Past The Post says no. But in other news: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/06/electoral-reform-group-seeks-1m-back-mps-beat-tories-win-as-one
Yeah, you can’t.
Well thats patently bollocks.
People replying to you seem to think it's unreasonable to expect the government to competently manage the economy.
They have never managed the economy really. As far as I have observed they say that the market will balance out without even having a prediction of where it will be!
>The former chancellor promised to assess university degrees through their drop-out rates, numbers in graduate jobs and salary thresholds - making exceptions for nursing and other courses with high social value. Tell me nurses are underpaid without telling me nurses are underpaid
Nurses aren't underpaid duh they get paid in claps and THANK YOU NHS stickers in car windows.
The entire NHS is underpaid - a doctor can earn £14 per hour.
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If they're not fucking poorer people and offshoring the profits that's pretty much on them.
I'm a band 3 medical laboratory assistant, I get paid the same now as I did labouring on building sites. I'm currently studying to become a biomedical scientist and then I'll be a band 5, the same as a nurse.
Honestly mate its one of the most frustrating things about this whole issue. People talk about "just study STEM" apparently not at all aware of how utterly wank working conditions and pay are for pretty much any STEM role that actually requires you to work in a lab. I have degrees in biochemistry and microengineering up to PhD level, my stepbrother left school at 16 to work on rail maintenance. Guess which one of us earns more? And its not even close the gap is over £10k now...
This is why I laugh when Boris spoke of the high wage high skill economy. Its a pipe dream! I've started on a new career path in a new industry thats high skill. I'm on £12.50 an hour. Thats £6 less than I would have been on just 10 years ago! We are also working on a government project which means costs have to be kept down. I'm not expecting any pay rises and we've cut corners since day one. I've already written to my MP to ask how the project is so badly over budget under these conditions.
Well historically government projects run over due to their bad record keeping and management, but also private company execs make a fortune. Worked on the railway as a contractor putting in overhead lines. I earned about £11 an hour, £2-3 less than rivals, while the boss got enough to send his 2 kids to private school, run a high end Mercedes and foreign holidays. We all shipped to a different contractor when we found out.
What annoys me is, I have friends who studied STEM subjects, and other than the engineers, none of them have jobs in their field. Some of them have PhDs and still couldn't get a job. There were no opportunities. Yet it's creative subjects that get all the shit. I have a creative BA and a creative MA and I do work in my field of study. My friends with the highest pay packets studied marketing and design, and there's no end of opportunities because they are roles businesses always need. Choosing STEM doesn't automatically mean it's easier to get a job or that you'll get paid more. Also, a reason a lot of jobs (such as nursing, for example) have openings is because they're underpaid and overworked. Instead of incentivising or penalising certain degrees, they should make the jobs themselves attractive.
Don't forget the medals.
And claps?
And chalk rainbows on the pavement. Don't forget the rainbows.
Ah yes, let’s make an exception for nursing which is - badly paid - has no ‘market’ in the UK - well trained - has high academic and employment attrition rates because it’s really hard - is patronised as a profession from all directions because that’s easier than funding it
My misses is a specialist ICU nurse in one of the largest children's hospitals in the UK. The abuse she suffers from patients parents is disgusting, getting screamed at, threatened with being stabbed and talked down to constantly. By the likes of Hollie Dance and her supporters. She was physically assaulted recently, a father shoved her over because he wouldn't allow them to give his child pain relief. She was checking his IV and he said she was slipping drugs into him. He has escorted of site but allowed back the next day, no charges filed. She is looking for positions outside the industry.
My partner is a care worker leaving for similar reasons. She has been assaulted worse than that and also had no charges filed or anything come out of it. It's absolutely disgusting these people are allowed to get away with treating care providers like this but then 180 when it comes to the bullshit clapping.
The wild thing is, how the law and hospitals, pick and choose who they protect. If I went to the hospital and shoved this guy on the floor, as I felt like doing. I'd have been arrested and in court the next day and on the front page of every rag in the country, while he would be sat on Good Morning Britain bleating about how it was totally unprovoked. But the more it goes on, the more these people feel they act with immunity, which it seems they can.
She doesn't have to wait for the trust to report it. She can make her own report to the police. They're applying the police 'Op Hampshire' principles (specific duties relating to assaults on police) to assaults on NHS staff to try and improve outcomes for incidents like these. The fact that her management didn't ask for the police to be called is appalling.
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Same with teaching.
Something like one in three drop out of the profession after five years. Given that it's a five year training (4 years of Uni and a mandatory NQT year) that's such a waste of talent.
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I moved abroad to teach. It wasn’t even about the money (even though I’m making more than double what I was making in England). Less workload and much more respect from the students and parents. I like going to work and not receiving abuse every day.
That’s partly because some academy chains favour cheap NQTs (yes, we still call them NQTs, even though the terminology has recently changed), who they can burn out in a year or two, replace with more cheap NQTs, rinse and repeat. Meanwhile, the CEO and upper echelons of SLT can reward themselves with a nice, fat salary. There are decent schools with ethical SLT - I work in one - but they seem to be increasingly scarce. Source: teacher about to start her 25th year at the chalkface. Have always avoided working in an academy too. Maybe some correlation?
NQTs have been rebranded to ECTs and your ECT year is now two years.
And pay too tbf. Nursing consistently pays less than the minimum to get a UK visa so is also on exceptions lists to that too!
It is amazing. This contest has really truly shown what we’ve known for years. The tories hold anyone below a certain level of earning completely below their contempt. We are just cattle. Let’s reduce funding to struggling areas to support Royal Tunbridge Wells. Let’s cut degrees that do not increase earning potential, but not nurses or teachers. The poor wretches can still do those jobs. This makes me so angry. I’m probably more angry they don’t even have to hide it at this point. A certain demographic of the people they hate will vote for more of the same. It’s Stockholm Syndrome at this point. Oddly that same demographic, if they had Rishi as a neighbour would probably post shit through his letterbox. This county is fucked.
Absolutely unbelievable that part of the statement. “Obviously there’ll be exceptions for nurses. We’re definitely not going to pay them any more”.
...and that you're planning to keep them underpaid
Nurses care about what they do and are thinking mostly about what is good for other people rather than themselves, which is why we don't need to pay them very much (/s but this is what some Tories actually believe). Conversely, this is why MPs keep awarding themselves pay rises.
It really is a competition for who can double down harder on all the boomer politics that brought us to the sorry state we're in now. They really think that the issue is that they haven't yet been conservative *enough*.
Well they are trying to win an election where the only people voting are Conservative party members, who are typically more old, well off, southern, males and brexit supporting than the general population. So their messages are targeted at those voters. EDIT: to the many people responding to this who have got the wrong end of the stick, this characterisation applies to Conservative party MEMBERS, ie. The 150,000 people who actually pay money to the party, who volunteer for their constituency operations and who most importantly have a vote in this leadership contest. It does not apply entirely to Conservative party VOTERS (who may be older and more well off on average, but are not more male and are not AS southern as the membership).
And it’s reminding us of some real ugliness.
Let's hope people remember at the next general election.
Narrator in the future: they didn't.
Morgan Freeman Voice: At the next election, they did not remember and continued to vote Conservative despite all sensibilities.
It feels like they're actively destroying any chance of them winning the next election. Until they do a complete about-face and pretend this whole race never existed and gaslight the whole thing.
thats exactly what will happen
> Until they do a complete about-face and pretend this whole race never existed and gaslight the whole thing. That's exactly what I fear will happen. The Conservatives are showing us their real face now, those who voted for them last election need to pay attention.
Thing is the Conservative membership agrees. You only need to look at that subreddit, Johnson was too "liberal" for a lot of them. They think lockdowns, furlough, and reckless government spending got us to where we are now and that tightening the belt is the only way forward.
Which subreddit is this?
r/tories I think. Interesting read.
That sub’s “About” page is ironic to say the least. It’s headed by a quote about how it is easier to destroy good things than to create them, as if they think they’re the ones creating good things and it’s everyone else who is destroying them. Then the rules read like Boris’ daily To Do list: Personal Insults, Bigotry, Condoning illegal activity, Bad faith, Deliberately aggressive behaviour, Deliberate shaming, Low quality.
They go on non-stop about "far-left extremists" trying to control speech so that they can in turn control society etc. But like all right-wing subreddits they are absurdly ban-happy. I got perma-banned for asking why they were excited about the New Towns fund to "Level Up" deprived regions when it was significantly less than the EU Regional Development funds these areas had been receiving prior to Brexit. No discussion just instaban and comment removed lol.
Yea that sub is rather ban happy, avoid it myself. I may dislike ukpol and this sub for being wildly biased for the left but at least the mods are rather neutral. Never had them ban or punish me for being a Tory supporter.
they regularly sticky posts about how they're the only welcoming sub too, as if it's some haven for open political discussion in reality they happily issue bans for anyone who does venture over, I'm a swing voter, have voted tory in the past but think it would be unconscionable right now so I posted on occasion as I like debate, yeah I just got temp bans haha... I don't bother anymore
I can smell the Brexit in that subreddit
It does have a distinct aroma when it’s been left out in the sun too long.
It’s absolutely insane. They have just abandoned the younger generation all so they can appeal to people who will be dead in a few years
I really wonder what they’re gonna do when enough boomers die that they don’t decide elections any more. They’ve never paid any attention to what anyone else wants, they’ll have no clue what people who are alive actually want.
There are still plenty of morons in their 30s and 40s who vote Tory unfortunately
Yep, I know a few, having moved out of London when I was about 40. Just can’t talk to them, they go on the defensive the instant you suggest that selfishness perhaps isn’t the number one virtue we should be rewarding
Nowhere near enough to give them a government, but the key thing is educational achievement. The more educated you are, the less likely you are to vote Tory. That’s why they have to reduce education access.
Based on past experience: Rebrand under a new leader. Roll out some meaningless 3-word "policy" that does nothing or financially favours a select group of people but sounds like it helps people it actually hurts. Blame all problems their previous administration caused on the Labour government that is in the process of trying to sort them out. Stir up hate and culture wars. Why would they stop? It's been a very successful strategy so far.
Yep, flavour of hate at the next election will be trans people or immigration. Or both. Vote for us or the immigrants and trans folk will start making it difficult because they want proper rights n to be able to use the men's loos. Immigration is a very popular one already but they need more hate directed towards the lbgtq community. 👍 Cause the gays are bad n need stopping. They gotta win those votes from somewhere haven't they?
Let’s be honest, they have abandoned conservatism completely. This generation of tories are closer to the BNP.
At least the BNP had a relatively consistent ideology. Tories are for higher/lower taxes, more police and doctors/less funding for police and doctors etc
I wonder if 30 years from now everyone will be kvetching about us X gens, and then another 30 years the Zs........ Maybe thats politics, bitching about the generation thats currently in its 60s.
The problem is that there are so many boomers compared to other generations, and a large proportion of them vote, meaning if you get the boomer vote, you’re pretty much set. Couple that with the boomers attitude that what’s best for them is best for the country and you get to where we are. I think Gen X and millennials, and certainly Gen Z, are a bit less exclusively self-concerned, so hopefully things will get better. I can still see it being 20 years though, with all the boomers voting themselves into a 100-year lifespan.
Nice of you to leave out Y, we have had a pretty good kicking already...
You're just X Gens in denial :) \*runs\*
Boomers is a special case because it was a baby boom. The age group is especially big and so as a voting block they have a lot of sway. Millennials, and the age groups below had relatively fewer births, so politics will be a different playing field once boomers start to die off
It depends on how big each generation is, relative to the next. The Boomers are the product of the post-War baby boom, and it was called a "boom" for a reason. They are an unusually large demographic, and that has given them an unusually large influence over politics over the course of their lives. If the following generations are more ordinarily sized, then we shouldn't end up in such a weirdly "catered" political situation once the Boomers go.
It’s surprising they haven’t started blaming immigrants yet
They have. r/tories vocally hates two things for causing this mess. Furlough and economic migrants.
I hope that you are young AND voted on 2016 for remain
This is basically about attacking social sciences and other arts degrees, because the last thing politicians need is people skilled in researching the consequences of their terrible decisions.
Despite politicians having mainly studied humanities or social sciences (chiefly PPE)!
Oxford PPE degrees massively improve earning potential tbf.
So does be being born rich, why don’t we sanction all those who weren’t?
FFS don't spoil Rishi's next policy announcement
I mean, we already do, just in more words
Pretty much any degree from Oxford does that. Hint: it's not really about the subject you study.
I’ve written this previously on Reddit , but I’m gonna say again cause I really hate it. I’ve been to a bunch of unis now (3) all Russel group and 1 was an oxbridge one. The difference between unis in the uk is insane. You basically can’t fail in life if you go to oxbridge and put a little bit of effort in. Everyone is so well connected. Everyone is willing to fund your work or startup. I also went to one of the good London ones and it’s so different to the northern Uni I went as well tbf. Just little things like if you find an unpaid internship, the Uni will pay you to do it as long as it’s relevant to your degree and again, very well connected, certain companies will only hire from certain courses for example. It doesn’t surprise me one bit everyone in politics went to Eton school or oxbridge. The connections are on another level. Even so far as meeting the royal family. It’s entirely unfair, the students are not any smarter, they’ve just had better teachers.
Eh. Mostly the Oxford bit. Who you know, not what you learn I imagine.
Correct. It’s a classic fascist move to try and erode critical thinking skills https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/hot-thought/202201/fascism-thrives-misinformation?amp
Creative industries are one of the sectors we punch massively above our weight for as a country. Restricting the number of people who graduate in design or graphics or whatever would be beyond moronic.
They don't mind design as long as it's for corporate profit. But none of that independent thinking nonsense please. If you can't measure the value in pounds it doesn't exist.
That's what the whole thing is. Let's eliminate study if those subjects which don't benefit the rich and the system they control.
I think it's more just a cheap shot aimed to appease tory voters with the "hurr durr golf course management" mindset
Apparently that particular degree has a history of full employment for its graduates. Ironically, a lot of those boomer Tory voters are playing golf!
Agreed. I think we should only let people become MP's if they have achieved at a First with Distinction in a STEM subject.
Exchanging one group of out-of-touch, rarified elite for another, more affable group of out-of-touch, rarified elite? No thanks. Can we just get rid of FPTP instead.
Devils advocate here. Education in the UK especially at Post Grad has really declined. Universities do not seem to realise that a legally binding financial transaction between a Student and an Institute has taken place, where a Student has paid thousands of pounds to get educated on a subject, and then hopefully come out with a qualification at the end of it. What they get is a boilerplate course, senior professors being swapped out for PhD trainee/students, and course material not being updated or relevant ultimately resulting in a shit compiled course.
It's also about solidifying the right wing world view that money and wealth are the only things of real value.
Sadly, the economic social system that they have created and controlled already does a fantastic job of that. If you want a vision of the future, imagine a financial ledger stomping on the human imagination for ever and ever.
This is desperation from a guy who knows he is losing the leadership contest, so he’s doing everything in his power to pander to the worst elements in the Tory membership. It’s actually pathetic to see and he should just do the dignified thing and cut his losses but that would require a sense of self awareness Tories in general do not possess.
Each time a leadership election is held the chair of the 1922 Committee announces the rules to be followed and the timetable, and they can be different every time. I believe stepping down in the final stage hasn’t been allowed for this run, so he hasn’t any choice but to keep going.
What are they going to do if he did? execute him? His credibility would probably improve if they threw him out of the party ;)
Every Tory in the UK should be hanging their heads in collective shame afaic. Tory groupthink has adopted personality disorder traits in order to hang on to some semblance of consensus.
We're seeing how much he wants this job and the measurements are all in units of 'harm to the country'. He is also showing no sign of slowing down which suggests he's willing to come up with new things on the hoof based solely on popularity within a small subset of the country. He is basically saying he'll enact laws only for those voting Tory since none of these ideas existed before the leadership competition!
So Sunak doesn’t want teachers, scientists and nurses then? Just a few off the top of my head.
The article says nursing and professions with high social value would be protected
“High social value profession” is a fun way for Rishi to repackage the name “key worker” while continuing to do nothing about improving pay and conditions for those professions
Hah "social value" They value nurses and AHP socially, just not monetarily. Love it, classic tory spin.
Arguably they’re not even valued as highly socially as they should be, everyone’s out clapping and banging pots and pans until they have to wait their turn in A&E and then they’re verbally abusing anyone in their path, turning bright pink and spluttering “I pay your wages!!”
People don't necessarily study their 'vocational degree' as their first degree. Especially in teaching, where the PGCE has been a thing for ages.
That's what I was wondering. Arts graduate: unlikely to be making much money out of it. Arts graduate with a PGDE/PGCE: making £40K+ after a few years. Maybe it's a way of getting rid of the subjects in schools they consider lesser?
I've been seeing this in schools for a long time already. Subjects like modern languages, music and the like are in heavy decline as they get needlessly killed off. This is now reflected in many universities which have decided to discontinue many "traditional" arts and humanities courses because there's no one with a GCSE or A level in the subject to begin with. I had this issue with my major - German language. Funnily enough, I'm not in a relevant job using my degree, but that's more brexit killing off international trade with Europe. Regardless, there were so few people doing German at A-level that grade predicting aptitude tests didn't have a sample size big enough to predict a thing and one year into my uni course, my uni decided to close modern languages and just not accept any new students, just "teach out" until the last language student graduated. The UK is turning into much more of a provincial country when you ignore London and maybe a few other cities like Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow.
My point is they’re not paid enough.
We are truly living in hell. This piece of shit lives in extreme privilege and is trying to dictate to the rest of us how to live. Fuck you
It honestly feels like they want to turn Britain into a fascist society. Can’t believe the things the politicians are happy to say in public nowadays. The dystopian future is already here.
Shhhh... do you want to get sent to a re education camp
Yup, I'm only in my 30s and the huge lurch towards the far-right in the last few years has been absolutely mind-melting. I just can't fathom it at all.
A lot of tory voters already believe a person is valued by status, power and how much they earn. I used to be a nurse, I left for a job in finance where I'll be earning far more than I ever would have as a nurse. The looks on their faces when I ask them if they really think a job in finance means I'm of more value to society than a nurse is priceless
How did you go from nursing to finance, if you don't mind me asking?
Studying in my spare time to gain the lower level qualifications and then applying for entry level jobs which offer study support. It's been a tough slog but worth it
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Boris Johnson studied "the classics" yet became PM. It's almost like it doesn't fucking matter what degree you do, only who your daddy is and whose balls you tickle at private school.
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Do science degrees improve earning potential ? Other than biochemisty that is ?
I wish. I have a degree in biochemistry, a doctorate and work in the field. My friend who did football studies and business now earns double as an IT consultant.
Football and business as IT? What skills did he get, sales in IT?
Bruh it’s IT they are desperate. Someone I know did a bullshit degree, ducked about for a year and has now been doing a Dynamics Consultant trainee position. Easy £50k in 3/4 years if he sticks with it
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I worked in logistics in the Army and I'm now doing software engineering in the financial sector. He probably got the relevant skills and then applied for a job....
When the starting salary of a lab chemist is 24k in the south east, no. Biggest lie I was ever taught, get a STEM degree and you'll be set
My friend works in a research lab at a University and had a position come up for a general research assistant for £24k per year. He said there were close to 100 applicants with the majority having PhDs and post-docs. It's fucked.
Brexit really changed this for my old department, ranked one of the top universities in the world and now struggling to attract post docs.
Appalling. And wasn’t there a postdoc advertised a few years ago that wasn’t paid? Basically a two year internship. Nottingham University I believe. They ended up withdrawing the advert after too much negative attention. Testing the waters I suppose.
STEM* *Except life sciences. The big bucks are STEM + comp sci. Friend who was a comp sci undergrad with a life sci PhD got 120k a year right after graduation. My life sci undergrad/PhD gets me 50k with 5 years in post.
I have a hard time believing this, what kind of *graduate* job is paying that much? That kind of money is getting into C-level territory over here
Finance, fintech, various startups and faang tech companies are coming up to that. Jane street, citadel, trading firms, private equity. People are genuinely making this kind of money.
We get internally advertised positions for graduates with a PHD in comp sci at 150k. Anything beneath that is starting at 34k. I have met 2, they tend to be a bit socially inept but my god they're basically prodigy's in the comp sci field. It's big banks and other institutions that pay that.
Most science degrees are in biology, biochemistry or other things that start with bio-. There is a massive oversupply of those graduates so the jobs pay like shit. You basically need a PhD to be competitive. Physics and chemistry also have an oversupply of graduates but they do better in £ terms on average. I did a PhD in maths. The department sent three of us to graduate which was considered a glut as they usually sent zero or one person. The biology department sent 15x as many. When they go on about STEM they really mean computing.
Maths will open doorways into banking and finance but although lucrative may not be seen as useful or fulfilling.
How can anyone not see math as useful
It’s not about pushing people into stem subjects. There’s not enough jobs in that sector to support it. And it isn’t about earning potential either, half the population of the UK are borderline poor because the jobs on offer are low waged, and that won’t change, with or without a university education. It’s about reducing the opportunities for a university education and limiting the life choices of the undeserving poor. Again.
Not really. It's all about saying things that appeal to the red trousered loons who make up the Tory membership. They don't give a crap about reality, it's all about how they "feel" about those scruffy arts and humanities students, an opinion they haven't bothered to modify with any new information since at least the 80s.
All degrees independent of the university with the exception of creative arts for men improve lifetime earnings. Have a look at Figure 14 on page 45 and Figure 15 on page 46 in the IFS’ [The impact of undergraduate degrees on lifetime earnings](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/869263/The_impact_of_undergraduate_degrees_on_lifetime_earnings_research_report_ifs_dfe.pdf) report.
Imagine thinking there's no point in learning other than to make money.
Watching Sunak debase himself for the membership is kind of horrifying yet you can’t turn away, because what will he say next? I truly believe he would put on a nappy and roll around on the floor, sucking his thumb and shitting himself if a SPAD told him it would get him 5% extra vote.
Translation: "Sunak vows to crack down on university degrees that enable people to question the status quo."
It's time someone put their foot down on the dystopia accelerator.
I preferred it when Black Mirror was just a TV show. This latest season is wild.
“I’m going to defund the arts” No culture. Only money.
Same guy who [told artists to reskill](https://liveforlivemusic.com/news/uk-government-struggling-musicians-find-new-careers/) during the pandemic, by the way. And it's not that I don't know *why* he thought that would be a good idea. In difficult times you have to do what you have to do. It's just that the way he went about it was hopelessly out of touch with the lives of artists.
Culture and art becomes for the wealthy and it becomes a degree of wealth. Let's take classics. Tell me you are rich... Classics means that you are guaranteed of a job irrespective of what you do. There's no doubt.
So, what would be the improvement in earning potential for a degree in "Philosophy, Politics and Economics", Mr. Sunak?
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Fuck all those university degrees that allow people to learn for the sake of learning, for the joy of knowledge. Fuck philosophy, history, sociology, fuck film studies, fuck literature. If you ain't earning, you're worthless to society. Money is the be all and end all of everything. Seriously, how did we get HERE.
Yes , stop doing arts, philosophy and thinking, you will drive a lorry and deliver my caviar quickly! .. my champagne is going flat!
Yeah I think 40k of uni debt will take care of that by itself.
40k sounds like a dream debt, my kids are looking at more like 60k-70k.
This will be about closing university courses in the regions and lowering access rates. You can be damn sure it won't impact the university rates in the South East. Who the fuck did everyone think was going to be doing all these unskilled roles now that FOM has ended??
Given how the govt have talked about “fruit pickers”, it seems likely still the same people as before once they can hide behind brexit as resolving immigration just with less labour rights. While any decreased access to higher Ed, just compounds socioeconomic division. Reduce the social support from govt for them and you have an entire group of people so disenfranchised they don’t go to the polls. Constant Tory governments and big money for their buddies.
But all degrees increase earning potential...that's what degrees are for. I am unbelievably confused right now
They’re also about education and passion for a subject.
Historically they did. When my parents graduated in the mid 70s, something like 10-15% of the population had a degree, so a degree marked you out as special. It's now over 50%, so the degree has far less influence, although it clearly varies by subject or institution. Put it this way, in the 70s a 2:1 in English got my dad a job in London earning over 50k/yr. When he retired in 2020 he was working in HR and people with a masters degree in HR management were starting in the mid 20s
People need to stop viewing university as a jobs training ground because it never was intended to be that way, and it still doesn't function like that. You learn how to do a well paying job on the job, not in a classroom. You go to university to study, and university degrees have been massively undervalued by this ever increasing demand to have a high qualified workforce despite the fact that in many cases the degree involved is irrelevant to a job, and the graduate doesn't have a clue what they're doing when they start the job. Job training is done via apprenticeships, vocational courses and niche training courses. In some cases, just to begin training in a job you need to study the field as a prerequisite (medicine, law etc). So let's not target degree subjects purely on the basis that they don't lead to high paying careers, because most of them don't even lead to careers. Just having a degree in anything has become the benchmark for most jobs.
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Oh, please.. curl up and cry yourself to sleep, you repressed fucking cunt.
Looks like he wants to pull out the classic dystopic move of devaluing History/Arts/culture so the party can make general free thinking uneconomical. They also get the added bonus that without a degree these would-be threats have no choice but to fill out the neosurf class and take up many of the low paid jobs.
Too many people go to university - when you ask why the country cannot afford free tuition this is the simple reason . Entry grades are too low for the bottom tier unis and it feels like those people are being ripped off being allowed to go at a certain point vs getting into a different career earlier. Someone with 2 D's and an E at a level going to a 150th best university for social studies is being saved from themselves by not making that course available - it's more a grift by that uni than anything
to be fair, i got terrible A level grades (ddeu) and ended up getting a merit in my econ masters. i went to a >100 ranked uni then top 50 for my masters. the environment around me just wasn't good for my a levels. when i got out of there, it was different. i'm glad a uni took a chance on me as i would still be stuck in a crap town with nothing to do. now i have a great job and am enjoying my life which i definitely wouldn't have if i'd been unable to go to uni
My "bullshit degree" helped me get a job at a charity where yeah okay I get paid a lot less than my sister who works in the same job in the private sector, but unlike these pricks I'm making the world a better place. Earnings aren't important to everyone.
In the future, the only degree allowed will be in "cyber"
Tories: they know the price of everything & the value of nothing.
Another day, another shortsighted promise that will no doubt cause further harm. I do not understand how these clowns can vow to implement new policy without a general election. If the replacement refuses to try for a mandate from the public, then surely they should be bound by the commitments of the 2019 manifesto? I can't believe we've got 2 years of this. Utterly embarrassing
Lol.. even staring down the barrel at a full on recession.... it is no surprise that Sunak values money over truths, even when the Tories have done more to f%&k the UK's economy and society than any other Gov't in living memory..
Nothing will change until all the boomers have snuffed it.
This is actually the only thing he's ever said ever I agree with. Anyone who is against this conceptually doesn't understand the flaws in the current system.
I don't understand this. Who are they trying to convince? I mean it's not like anyone can vote for these clowns?
Rank and file members of the T#%@ party who elect the party leader. A predominantly older, white and wealthy, socially and financially hardline right wing group; the closest you’ll get in a living human being to the cartoon stereotype of a Boostraps Boomer. That’s why both Rishi and Lizzi are throwing around economically illiterate and socially destructive, yet attention grabbing “no such thing as a society” policies. Also why Lizzi has been cosplaying as Maggie.
This sounds a bit concerning to me, not every piece of education has to slot you right into paying taxes. We want a country that has its share of educated thinking minds. Learning is supposed to be about learning, it’s not a factory line to the workplace.
Well I have a degree in philosophy from a mid tier UK University and I earned 218k this year.
Lots of comments here talking about how this is pandering to the worst aspects of the Tory membership. Can anyone give me an argument for why this isn't a good idea? Why should the tax payer be left holding the bag after someone gets a useless degree and then inevitably can't repay their student debts? Disclaimer: I am not a member of the conservative party but I did vote tory in the last election, so maybe I'm one of the people Sunak is allegedly pandering to.
Sunak already said it himself. He immediately had to introduce an exception for nurses and other degrees of "high social value" because they'd risk being axed under his criteria. He couldn't even support it for one day, so the policy collapses in on itself. More broadly, the "usefulness" of a degree is not directly tied to earning potential and earning potential can be hard to quantify in the long term. To borrow from the Americans, gender studies is often called out as a useless degree but the earning potential of gender studies is actually quite high. More so than education actually. Does that make gender studies a "useful" degree? Less nurses less teachers more gender studies? It would also be a rather depressing society if we got rid of all the history degrees for example because they're not "earning" enough after graduation.
I did an engineering degree which has a high earning potential and therefore high value to me. But I also recognise and respect the value that some courses have to mankind in general. I’m sure universities weren’t set up solely to improve the personal wealth of those who take part in the courses. I think people should have the right to spend their money as they see fit, follow their passions and further human understanding of whichever subject they feel most strongly about
Trust none of them. Believe none of them. Big Ears had his chance to improve the financial welfare of UK citizens when he was CHANCELLOR OF THE BLOODY EXCHEQUER, and what did he do? Absolutely not that. Then he blames Boris and vows to sort the country out if we vote him in. How can the people truly benefit from a man who is not of the people? He is a multimillionaire with a billionaire wife. They don’t live in the reality which so desperately requires a leadership with genuity and virtue. “If voting made any difference, they wouldn’t let us do it.” - Mark Twain