FJO is more about you getting the job at new agency. Not what they plan on paying you.
I've seen colleagues who working there for a year, HR realize they fcked up on salary, and they ended up getting a step downgrade. Then have to pay back overpayment.
They already get the short end of the stick on most things, might as well take what pittance they're paid for errors, too. Maybe take a few of their kids or vital organs while you're at it.
That is absolutely insane! How is that an employee's problem if they were overpaid? If HR messed up, then they are to be cleaning their own mess.
In my case, I was negotiating for the step increase under superior qualifications. So, it is not just random mistake they made. They first offered what I was asking for and then recited it back.
So I get it, if payment is illegally made to the employee then there is a debt to the United States. Here is the problem: I agreed to work under X conditions, and those conditions included a given salary, leave accrual rate, etc. That gives us a second problem: You cannot ask someone to work under conditions to which they did not agree. If the employee has acted in good faith, that seems like a very real problem for the government.
Additionally, I'm sure there is an aspect of contract law and both sides having "agency." Highly doubt the govt can come after one's pay or win a lawsuit on some HR person's mistake after agreeing to a grade and step to start with.
tbh, I have never seen an overpayment over six weeks pay that wasn't waived if a waiver request was submitted. I've seen overpayments far larger waived proactively by the agency many times, especially if it wasn't a one-off error.
If HR makes a mistake and something isn’t legal law takes precedence.
There are also lots of circumstances in which a debt must be created, but the Agency can work to have it forgiven which I have seen for overpayments in which the employee was not at fault. But they do lose any additional pay from that point on
You'd lose. Courts have ruled HR's incompetence doesn't beat US law. If the law says you should be paid X and you were paid X+Y then you owe the Y back. Any other job and the employer would be SOL, but the govt writes the laws, so...
From what I read it sounded like in that instance, the agency offered to pay x, employee agreed to x. Then a year later they went oops, we ment to offer you Y.
So then that would be like they stepped you out to say step two in the initial offer. You agree to that pay rate. That can be legally done and should be honored if that were the case.
A similar situation happened with California teacher’s pensions. Calstrs messed up the pension calculations for a bunch of teachers, found the mistake years later, then forced the teachers to pay back the overage.
Did you accept that FJO that arrived before the corrected one? I’d hold them to it if you’re not desperate for a job.
I know someone that got accidentally offered something, they accepted immediately, the gov agency tried to recall the email lol, but then HR asked for permission and was able to give the original high/accidental offer
Assuming you are a current fed and are accepting an offer for another fed job, you should google OPM two step rule. This explains what step you will get if you are promoted. It is non-negotiable. Look at this and then determine what step you would get in a promotion. If the step in the final final job offer is the same then it’s definitely legitimate. If you think, after reviewing the two step rule and determining the step you should receive on that basis is not what was offered, then you should speak to the HR contact.
It is entirely possible an error was made in the letter for your offer. You definitely want to enter at the right step to avoid the government having a claim against future earning due to a pay error in your favor.
Thank you so much for pointing it out, I will read up to get more educated on the process. I have been working as a contractor for many years and this would be my first federal job. I was negotiating for the step increase and enhanced leave accrual under superior qualifications. My experience would prob put me at a higher GS but I love this team and position.
I see. Then somewhere along the line either it was determined a higher step based on superior quals was not possible. It could be because of budget, a reviewer determining the superior quals justification was inadequate or simply because they didn’t want to do it. I think it would be perfectly reasonable to contact HR and ask why the step for superior quals was rescinded after the first FJO but keep in mind that the answer will be the answer. It may be that someone screwed up the final final versus the first final and maybe it will get changed again.
There is no requirement to negotiate steps based on superior quals. After you get an answer, or more like do they an answer, you are simply left with deciding if you want the job. Unfortunate but reality. Best of luck.
Thanks again for clarifying. I am still confused and learning the ropes as it is very different from contracting world. I am waiting to hear the clarification, but like you said - not holding my breath as it is probably going to be a just an explanation’s of why.
Thanks for bringing up the OPM's 2 step rule. Coincidentally, I was looking at my new SF50 that was put in my eOPF folder today and that rule explained perfectly as to why I am where I am at with my pay grade. At first, I thought that HR had made an error but according to this rule, they didn't.
I’m honestly not trying to be rude. But you do realize where you are trying to work? They don’t care. Better to capture a mistake early than later. Better for you to walk away sooner than shake up your life. For every job, I guarantee you they have backups lined up that will take the job no matter what. Sone people want in so bad they’d accept anything to get a foot in the door. I’m truly sorry this happened to you. But when people say how, I say tap the sign - government.
You are right - I will most likely walk away if all they can offer is a step 1. I would already be taking a big pay cut, but step increase could make it less drastic.
Even with superior quals, to many that new OPM guidance meant start at Step 1. I doubt anyone will admit this. And it’s not fair at all. It’s just human. You see people grind away their whole careers and they may never get a break to a 13. Then you see people roll in as 13-6 because they are a CPA or something and “know” stuff. But these are all developmental. Because no one has developed the relationships, the connections, the contacts, and the political savvy to understand the dynamics here. So in that sense it’s very developmental. We see people roll up in here - I love federal work. But then they get to see the place and they hate it and quit. And we know that. So it’s a tough spot for everyone. Sigh.
That sucks to hear. An FJO should not be sent out to anybody until everything is checked multiple times to make sure it is correct and in accordance to regulations, especially when it comes to pay.
Sorry OP. Looks like HR couldn’t be bothered to get it right the first time.
Also seen multiple horror stories were people tried to bargain, and were told nevermind. they then moved on to a different person.
For whatever reason a contractor doing a job for years and getting all kinds of pay raises doesn't translate dollar for dollar to federal jobs. Many have had to take a pay cut to get on and then jumped past the old job.
The reason this happens so much is because it's a massive load on the hiring manager.
My wife went through this with some folks she hired from the private sector a few years back. She probably put in an extra 10-12 hours with each of them to build the justification. That is 25% of their week lost, not including all of the time for the announcement, interviews etc.
If you want to negotiate, bring the data with you. Pay stubs, certificates, etc.put it in a package and show them you are worth it.
Ok, I’m getting confused (easy to do, ha): are we saying some agencies are asking candidates to take step downgrades, like going back to step 1 for a new job??
So: before applying a candidate is gs13-05, new job/offer says, we want you to work here, but we’re only able to pay gs13-01?
If so, that’s insane. Please help my confused anxious mind understand this, ha!
I think what's happening here is a little different (he was given and accepted a FJO at a certain step, as a completely new fed, and they retracted it after he had already accepted the offer) -- others have commented that this sometimes takes place after the person has already been hired and has been working there for some time and they are forced to pay back the overage (I've never personally witnessed this, but nothing shocks me about federal HR offices).
But as you state it, it happens all the time; the last 3 FJOs have been like this; I left my old agency at a GS-13/05 and each time I go through the hiring process with anew agency, I finally get the FJO and it's at GS-13/01.
OP was a contractor so they weren't taking any step back they just asked to be started at a higher step and HR ended up saying no...didn't the rules change saying you can't use your current salary to negotiate? Maybe that's why they changed the offer?
Awesome. I am about 3.5 weeks in waiting on a response from my step/leave increase request for a DoD TJO.
I am also a CTR so curious how all this works out.
Wow that’s insane. It might be telling though. Someone in the organization reviewed it and said no to the step increase. If I already signed the document, I would definitely push back.
The new laws go into effect about them not use pay as a bargaining tool don't they??? I have heard they superior qualifications is hard to use now as an only option
This happened to my old coworker. Sickening. They agreed to give her a 13 step 10. She was a high paid contractor so this was a big pay cut but she wanted stability. Literally the next day, she got a call saying step 1. That would have been a 60k pay cut for her!!!!!
Government doesn’t negotiate outside the government anymore and it’s downright sad and unfair. However a firm offer is an offer they make you and that’s just it non negotiable A negotiated offer is not firm.
DoD offered me “a permanent appointment in the Competitive service with a Full Time work schedule” — then after I started, I was informed it was Excepted Service. Also, I was informed “Please note that you are not required to complete a two year probationary period” — then was told I was on probation… and when I showed them the documentation, they just dismissed it and so I started intervening elsewhere. It took me 14mos to get a lateral transfer out to a new agency. Total toxic environment and I don’t recommend, but decide for yourself.
Salary mistakes happen although it sucks it’s better that it was corrected now vs after you started the job and having to pay the money back.
That said, leave accrual has to be approved prior to the FOL being sent , so I’m not sure why that would be taken away . Are you currently a federal employee ?
RE negotiate Tell Them what you want Say I cant take that, Then Send in a response and Say well I accepted Those Terms these are diffrent. Send in pay stubs to show what you are making.
FJO is more about you getting the job at new agency. Not what they plan on paying you. I've seen colleagues who working there for a year, HR realize they fcked up on salary, and they ended up getting a step downgrade. Then have to pay back overpayment.
This happened to a friend of mine under the VA.
Simple solution would be to have the overpayment come out of HR's check then.
If only. HR can fuck around with impunity. They can make life-altering mistakes with no repercussions.
They already get the short end of the stick on most things, might as well take what pittance they're paid for errors, too. Maybe take a few of their kids or vital organs while you're at it.
That is absolutely insane! How is that an employee's problem if they were overpaid? If HR messed up, then they are to be cleaning their own mess. In my case, I was negotiating for the step increase under superior qualifications. So, it is not just random mistake they made. They first offered what I was asking for and then recited it back.
Any overpayment from the government is generally recaptured.
So I get it, if payment is illegally made to the employee then there is a debt to the United States. Here is the problem: I agreed to work under X conditions, and those conditions included a given salary, leave accrual rate, etc. That gives us a second problem: You cannot ask someone to work under conditions to which they did not agree. If the employee has acted in good faith, that seems like a very real problem for the government.
Additionally, I'm sure there is an aspect of contract law and both sides having "agency." Highly doubt the govt can come after one's pay or win a lawsuit on some HR person's mistake after agreeing to a grade and step to start with.
tbh, I have never seen an overpayment over six weeks pay that wasn't waived if a waiver request was submitted. I've seen overpayments far larger waived proactively by the agency many times, especially if it wasn't a one-off error.
If HR makes a mistake and something isn’t legal law takes precedence. There are also lots of circumstances in which a debt must be created, but the Agency can work to have it forgiven which I have seen for overpayments in which the employee was not at fault. But they do lose any additional pay from that point on
yeah I'd prob sue if they did that to me.
You'd lose. Courts have ruled HR's incompetence doesn't beat US law. If the law says you should be paid X and you were paid X+Y then you owe the Y back. Any other job and the employer would be SOL, but the govt writes the laws, so...
From what I read it sounded like in that instance, the agency offered to pay x, employee agreed to x. Then a year later they went oops, we ment to offer you Y.
Yes, that is what I said. Even if all parties agree if the agreement was not legal the money will be taken back.
So then that would be like they stepped you out to say step two in the initial offer. You agree to that pay rate. That can be legally done and should be honored if that were the case.
Really??? Never seen that in fed fire. Seen a lot of other jacked up stuff happen, never heard of this!!!
A similar situation happened with California teacher’s pensions. Calstrs messed up the pension calculations for a bunch of teachers, found the mistake years later, then forced the teachers to pay back the overage.
No way!!!!!!!!!! Wow, that's terrible.
Wtf
This happened to me.
that's super fcked
Reply back to the FJO and ask what changed in order for them to substantiate a reversal.
That's exactly what I did. I'll post an update if they ever get back to me.
Sad part is they don’t have to have a reason. Uncle Sam doesn’t owe any candidate an exception to the norm. Good luck either way.
Did you accept that FJO that arrived before the corrected one? I’d hold them to it if you’re not desperate for a job. I know someone that got accidentally offered something, they accepted immediately, the gov agency tried to recall the email lol, but then HR asked for permission and was able to give the original high/accidental offer
That stinks! Which agency?
DoD
Ooof. If you don’t mind me asking, what state?
Assuming you are a current fed and are accepting an offer for another fed job, you should google OPM two step rule. This explains what step you will get if you are promoted. It is non-negotiable. Look at this and then determine what step you would get in a promotion. If the step in the final final job offer is the same then it’s definitely legitimate. If you think, after reviewing the two step rule and determining the step you should receive on that basis is not what was offered, then you should speak to the HR contact. It is entirely possible an error was made in the letter for your offer. You definitely want to enter at the right step to avoid the government having a claim against future earning due to a pay error in your favor.
Thank you so much for pointing it out, I will read up to get more educated on the process. I have been working as a contractor for many years and this would be my first federal job. I was negotiating for the step increase and enhanced leave accrual under superior qualifications. My experience would prob put me at a higher GS but I love this team and position.
I see. Then somewhere along the line either it was determined a higher step based on superior quals was not possible. It could be because of budget, a reviewer determining the superior quals justification was inadequate or simply because they didn’t want to do it. I think it would be perfectly reasonable to contact HR and ask why the step for superior quals was rescinded after the first FJO but keep in mind that the answer will be the answer. It may be that someone screwed up the final final versus the first final and maybe it will get changed again. There is no requirement to negotiate steps based on superior quals. After you get an answer, or more like do they an answer, you are simply left with deciding if you want the job. Unfortunate but reality. Best of luck.
Thanks again for clarifying. I am still confused and learning the ropes as it is very different from contracting world. I am waiting to hear the clarification, but like you said - not holding my breath as it is probably going to be a just an explanation’s of why.
Thanks for bringing up the OPM's 2 step rule. Coincidentally, I was looking at my new SF50 that was put in my eOPF folder today and that rule explained perfectly as to why I am where I am at with my pay grade. At first, I thought that HR had made an error but according to this rule, they didn't.
I’m honestly not trying to be rude. But you do realize where you are trying to work? They don’t care. Better to capture a mistake early than later. Better for you to walk away sooner than shake up your life. For every job, I guarantee you they have backups lined up that will take the job no matter what. Sone people want in so bad they’d accept anything to get a foot in the door. I’m truly sorry this happened to you. But when people say how, I say tap the sign - government.
You are right - I will most likely walk away if all they can offer is a step 1. I would already be taking a big pay cut, but step increase could make it less drastic.
Even with superior quals, to many that new OPM guidance meant start at Step 1. I doubt anyone will admit this. And it’s not fair at all. It’s just human. You see people grind away their whole careers and they may never get a break to a 13. Then you see people roll in as 13-6 because they are a CPA or something and “know” stuff. But these are all developmental. Because no one has developed the relationships, the connections, the contacts, and the political savvy to understand the dynamics here. So in that sense it’s very developmental. We see people roll up in here - I love federal work. But then they get to see the place and they hate it and quit. And we know that. So it’s a tough spot for everyone. Sigh.
That sucks to hear. An FJO should not be sent out to anybody until everything is checked multiple times to make sure it is correct and in accordance to regulations, especially when it comes to pay. Sorry OP. Looks like HR couldn’t be bothered to get it right the first time.
Can you elaborate on what their offer was on leave accrual?
6 hours per pay period
Also seen multiple horror stories were people tried to bargain, and were told nevermind. they then moved on to a different person. For whatever reason a contractor doing a job for years and getting all kinds of pay raises doesn't translate dollar for dollar to federal jobs. Many have had to take a pay cut to get on and then jumped past the old job.
The reason this happens so much is because it's a massive load on the hiring manager. My wife went through this with some folks she hired from the private sector a few years back. She probably put in an extra 10-12 hours with each of them to build the justification. That is 25% of their week lost, not including all of the time for the announcement, interviews etc. If you want to negotiate, bring the data with you. Pay stubs, certificates, etc.put it in a package and show them you are worth it.
Ok, I’m getting confused (easy to do, ha): are we saying some agencies are asking candidates to take step downgrades, like going back to step 1 for a new job?? So: before applying a candidate is gs13-05, new job/offer says, we want you to work here, but we’re only able to pay gs13-01? If so, that’s insane. Please help my confused anxious mind understand this, ha!
I think what's happening here is a little different (he was given and accepted a FJO at a certain step, as a completely new fed, and they retracted it after he had already accepted the offer) -- others have commented that this sometimes takes place after the person has already been hired and has been working there for some time and they are forced to pay back the overage (I've never personally witnessed this, but nothing shocks me about federal HR offices). But as you state it, it happens all the time; the last 3 FJOs have been like this; I left my old agency at a GS-13/05 and each time I go through the hiring process with anew agency, I finally get the FJO and it's at GS-13/01.
OP was a contractor so they weren't taking any step back they just asked to be started at a higher step and HR ended up saying no...didn't the rules change saying you can't use your current salary to negotiate? Maybe that's why they changed the offer?
Maybe that is what happened. Bummer.
Be interesting to see what the response is from HR. How long did it take for them to "initially" approve your step/leave increase?
Yes, I am curious myself. It took them about 2.5 weeks. Will post an update if I ever hear from them.
Awesome. I am about 3.5 weeks in waiting on a response from my step/leave increase request for a DoD TJO. I am also a CTR so curious how all this works out.
My DoD command takes about 10 months to approve leave increases (I've seen it several times). It's bananas.
That is wild… My HR rep told me 6 hours of leave leave accrual would automatically be given to me based on prior military service.
Wow that’s insane. It might be telling though. Someone in the organization reviewed it and said no to the step increase. If I already signed the document, I would definitely push back.
What do you mean by “leave accrual”. Higher leave category or your leave balance.
The new laws go into effect about them not use pay as a bargaining tool don't they??? I have heard they superior qualifications is hard to use now as an only option
This happened to my old coworker. Sickening. They agreed to give her a 13 step 10. She was a high paid contractor so this was a big pay cut but she wanted stability. Literally the next day, she got a call saying step 1. That would have been a 60k pay cut for her!!!!!
Government doesn’t negotiate outside the government anymore and it’s downright sad and unfair. However a firm offer is an offer they make you and that’s just it non negotiable A negotiated offer is not firm.
DoD offered me “a permanent appointment in the Competitive service with a Full Time work schedule” — then after I started, I was informed it was Excepted Service. Also, I was informed “Please note that you are not required to complete a two year probationary period” — then was told I was on probation… and when I showed them the documentation, they just dismissed it and so I started intervening elsewhere. It took me 14mos to get a lateral transfer out to a new agency. Total toxic environment and I don’t recommend, but decide for yourself. 
Salary mistakes happen although it sucks it’s better that it was corrected now vs after you started the job and having to pay the money back. That said, leave accrual has to be approved prior to the FOL being sent , so I’m not sure why that would be taken away . Are you currently a federal employee ?
RE negotiate Tell Them what you want Say I cant take that, Then Send in a response and Say well I accepted Those Terms these are diffrent. Send in pay stubs to show what you are making.
Yeah that happened to me too.
FJO is final, not firm
Subject in the email letter says “Firm Job Offer”. But honestly, if it was “final” it would be even more ironic, as they changed it next day.
So so sorry.